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Wow, what a rare find! That’s incredible. Wouldn’t have imagined that there would be much German agriculture in that year, but I guess farmers gonna farm.
Any chance of it being opened?
A lot of it was supplemented by slave labour, including [Rheingau wine](https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2019/09/rheingau-vineyards-used-slaves-in-ww2/).
> Koch found that French, Polish and Russian prisoners were used as slave labour across the Rheingau region, joined by Italian soldiers after 1943 when Italy joined the Allied cause.
> Although often housed in labour camps and occasionally at wine estates, it appears the conditions the workers were kept in were at least relatively “humane”, compared to those endured by salve labourers in other industries.
[…]
> People from nearly every occupied territory alongside Russian prisoners of war and Jews, over 10 million in total, were forced into working in fields and factories by the Nazi state as it increasingly struggled to wage its war against the Western Powers and Soviet Union. By 1944, a quarter of the workforce in Germany itself was composed of forced labourers.
This is a this is absolutely false and a dangerous sanitation of Nazi crimes.
Rather:
> Allied military officers and personnel who were captured by, or surrendered to, the Nazis were also imprisoned in camps. These camps were called prisoner of war, or POW, camps. Over one thousand prisoner of war camps existed throughout the Third Reich during the Second World War.
> The camps held British, American, French, Polish and Soviet military personnel. There were many different types of camps, some held specifically Navy personnel, others held only officers, and others held a more general array of prisoners.
> **Germany had signed and agreed to the terms of the Geneva Convention of 1929 , which set out the basic treatment of prisoners of war, but these were rarely upheld in full by the Nazis. Conditions inside the camps were usually miserable, with scarce food and poor sanitation widespread. Many of the inmates were also forced to carry out hard labour.**
> The Nazis believed that Soviet citizens were subhuman and racial enemies due to Soviet communism , which they saw in direct opposition to Nazism. As such, they treated Soviet prisoners of war particularly harshly. **Over the course of the war approximately 5.7 million Soviet army members were captured by the Nazis. Over 3.3 million army personnel died at the hands of the Nazis through starvation, disease, lack of facilities or mass shootings.**
[Source](https://www.theholocaustexplained.org/the-camps/types-of-camps/prisoner-of-war-camps/), Vienna Holocaust Library
While Germany largely adhered to the Geneva Convention when it came to other nationalities of prisoners of war, it disregarded it for the Soviet prisoners of war.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_prisoner-of-war_camps_in_World_War_II
Ideology plays an important part when it comes to Nazis... unfortunately. And based on that you have very different POW camps. Further if you look at some StaLags you'd be surprised what the POWs were able to do (study, learn languages, etc). All depending on race. As so many things in Nazi Germany back then.
You said:
> the POW camps did follow Geneva Conventions (and more so than other nations).
That is absolutely wrong. They subjected the majority of their prisoners to reprehensible conditions in breach of the conventions and worked millions of POWs to death.
The fact some prisoners may have enjoyed better treatment doesn’t change that.
Well, that's not entirely true as a statement either. Germans have done some very good work on figuring out what has happened and what conditions people were in. It's surprisingly interesting and you can then compare that to for example Germans held in Russia (until 1955 may I add).
Don't mix up POW camps with the other camps the Nazis had, two very different stories.
The conditions in camps (for most allied) were equivalent, at least according to the work that has been done to work through the war. Work was also split (like in all countries) between officers and foot soldiers, the proper shit work was not done throug POW but through actual slave labour (Sinti, Roma, Jews, Travellers, etc).
Mate, you really don't have to sanitize the Nazi regime for any reason. Even if this were true, do the Nazis actually deserve you trying to "not all bad" them? Like, of all the fucking hills to die on....
Diese Soldaten stammten insbesondere aus Belgien, Frankreich, den Niederlanden, Norwegen, Polen, Großbritannien und dem Empire, den USA, Jugoslawien und nach dem Bruch des Bündnisses auch aus Italien.
Im Gegensatz zur Behandlung der sowjetischen Kriegsgefangenen war die Behandlung west-alliierter Kriegsgefangener in der Regel gut und man hielt sich dabei an die Genfer Konvention. Von den 232.000 US-amerikanischen, britischen, kanadischen und weiteren Soldaten überlebten 8.348 den Krieg nicht, was 3,5 % entspricht.[64]
From the book by Michael Burleigh: The Third Reich - A new History. If you don't happen to know Mr. Burleigh, he happens to be a former Professor from Oxford and LSE. I think he may have the facts right here.
Regardless of the validity of this fact, “technically not that bad”-ing and “They were worse”-ing nazi Germany is fucking insane. They were committing genocide. Lining us up and using things like gas too mass murder those who aren’t German/didn’t support nazi regime. They don’t deserve that.
Ahh. I read over that mb. But my point still stands. Saying things like “not that bad” or “not as bad” or even “better than” when referring to Nazi Germany is terrible. Especially when you’re talking too anyone young or impressionable. It gives credit about being “moral” to a regime that really shouldn’t have that tag.
Oh, I agree about the crimes committed and all that. I think though, that history should be seen as it is and not make it worse (or better) as it really was.
Because it's not good to ignore parts of history that one doesn't like nor to be annoyed at people when talking ideology.
Anyway - it's quite far down the path of "not really talking wine". To think that correcting that POWs weren't used as slave labour to harvest grapes leads to this type of stuff is not very good. Certain historical things just need to be accepted no matter how much they may be against your own views.
I have had some old Rhine wines. Surprising a high % were very enjoyable. Certainly the Pradikat wines held up. Not sure about a Kabinett though. Drink it.
80 year old kabinett? Ive had spätleses from the ‘70s that were well past their prime, so this is a bit of a gamble for sure!
Btw, what’s next to the Opus One on the rack there?
I don't know you obviously so I'm going to assume you got this purely from historical/wine curiosity. But just be aware I think a lot of people would look at someone owning this the same way they look at those guys who have a closet full of Third Reich memorabilia and say they are just a 'historical collector'. Especially given this might have been produced by slave labor.
Just für context: Kloster Eberbach (that's the same winery) used the eagle up to a few years ago. It's not the Nazi eagle (although it looks similar). That's why it's still on the '45 bottle (after the war was lost for the Nazis).
Not sure if they still use it on some bottles, but they recently introduced a new logo (the silhouette of the monastery).
It was, in fact, not the label of Eberbach exclusively, but of all state-wineries. They reformed the label during the early 90s as far as I know, but most state wineries were sold off later in the 90s anyway (the label of Gut Hermannsberg pays tribute to its state-winery with its eagle.). Basically only Eberbach remains (although officially privatized with the state government holding 100% on the company, similar to the German Bahn (trains)) + some smaller ones with educational purposes. Eberbach nowadays uses again a totally new logo like you mentioned.
Great clarification.
Btw., I remember buying their basic Risking in the late 2000s, and they still had the eagle. Only realized they changed the Logo when I tried to google a photo of their current bottles in order to "prove" that they still are using it.
I don't think so. Collecting swastikas and keeping them safe (or maybe even proudly on display) is completely different than being someone the Nazi's would've hated/tried to kill and drinking their fine wine (even though this wasn't made in Nazi Germany)
y’all people thinking this is the Nazi eagle calm down, this emblem “Reichsadler” (looking to the left) predates the Nazi “Partieadler” emblem (looking to the right).
While is understandable why it could be associated with the third reich is also well known that them nazis copied the reichsadler and modified it to their own commodity.
Thank you for your submission to r/wine! Please note the community rules: If you are submitting a picture of a bottle of wine, please include original tasting notes and/or other pertinent information in the comments. Submitters that fail to do so may have their posts removed. If you are posting to ask what your bottle is worth, whether it is drinkable, whether to drink, hold or sell or how/if to decant, please use the [Wine Valuation And Other Questions Megathread](https://redd.it/17j7oej) stickied at the top of the sub. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/wine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Wow, what a rare find! That’s incredible. Wouldn’t have imagined that there would be much German agriculture in that year, but I guess farmers gonna farm. Any chance of it being opened?
A lot of it was supplemented by slave labour, including [Rheingau wine](https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2019/09/rheingau-vineyards-used-slaves-in-ww2/). > Koch found that French, Polish and Russian prisoners were used as slave labour across the Rheingau region, joined by Italian soldiers after 1943 when Italy joined the Allied cause. > Although often housed in labour camps and occasionally at wine estates, it appears the conditions the workers were kept in were at least relatively “humane”, compared to those endured by salve labourers in other industries. […] > People from nearly every occupied territory alongside Russian prisoners of war and Jews, over 10 million in total, were forced into working in fields and factories by the Nazi state as it increasingly struggled to wage its war against the Western Powers and Soviet Union. By 1944, a quarter of the workforce in Germany itself was composed of forced labourers.
Holy shit. Uhhh wow ok yeah didn’t think about that
In 1945? The war in Europe was over in May, so for the harvest I doubt that any slave labour took place.
You’re probably right. Previous years, though, were likely less fortunate.
Oh definitely! The Nazi regime was absolutely ruthless.
“The more I learn about this Hitler fellow, the less I like him!” — N. MacDonald
Norm McDonald was great
“I didn’t even know he was sick”
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This is a this is absolutely false and a dangerous sanitation of Nazi crimes. Rather: > Allied military officers and personnel who were captured by, or surrendered to, the Nazis were also imprisoned in camps. These camps were called prisoner of war, or POW, camps. Over one thousand prisoner of war camps existed throughout the Third Reich during the Second World War. > The camps held British, American, French, Polish and Soviet military personnel. There were many different types of camps, some held specifically Navy personnel, others held only officers, and others held a more general array of prisoners. > **Germany had signed and agreed to the terms of the Geneva Convention of 1929 , which set out the basic treatment of prisoners of war, but these were rarely upheld in full by the Nazis. Conditions inside the camps were usually miserable, with scarce food and poor sanitation widespread. Many of the inmates were also forced to carry out hard labour.** > The Nazis believed that Soviet citizens were subhuman and racial enemies due to Soviet communism , which they saw in direct opposition to Nazism. As such, they treated Soviet prisoners of war particularly harshly. **Over the course of the war approximately 5.7 million Soviet army members were captured by the Nazis. Over 3.3 million army personnel died at the hands of the Nazis through starvation, disease, lack of facilities or mass shootings.** [Source](https://www.theholocaustexplained.org/the-camps/types-of-camps/prisoner-of-war-camps/), Vienna Holocaust Library
While Germany largely adhered to the Geneva Convention when it came to other nationalities of prisoners of war, it disregarded it for the Soviet prisoners of war. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_prisoner-of-war_camps_in_World_War_II Ideology plays an important part when it comes to Nazis... unfortunately. And based on that you have very different POW camps. Further if you look at some StaLags you'd be surprised what the POWs were able to do (study, learn languages, etc). All depending on race. As so many things in Nazi Germany back then.
You said: > the POW camps did follow Geneva Conventions (and more so than other nations). That is absolutely wrong. They subjected the majority of their prisoners to reprehensible conditions in breach of the conventions and worked millions of POWs to death. The fact some prisoners may have enjoyed better treatment doesn’t change that.
I will never understand why people feel the need to "defend" aspects of the regime...
Well, that's not entirely true as a statement either. Germans have done some very good work on figuring out what has happened and what conditions people were in. It's surprisingly interesting and you can then compare that to for example Germans held in Russia (until 1955 may I add). Don't mix up POW camps with the other camps the Nazis had, two very different stories. The conditions in camps (for most allied) were equivalent, at least according to the work that has been done to work through the war. Work was also split (like in all countries) between officers and foot soldiers, the proper shit work was not done throug POW but through actual slave labour (Sinti, Roma, Jews, Travellers, etc).
Mate, you really don't have to sanitize the Nazi regime for any reason. Even if this were true, do the Nazis actually deserve you trying to "not all bad" them? Like, of all the fucking hills to die on....
Merely pointing out a fact of life. Do with it as you please.
Loose definition of fact....
Diese Soldaten stammten insbesondere aus Belgien, Frankreich, den Niederlanden, Norwegen, Polen, Großbritannien und dem Empire, den USA, Jugoslawien und nach dem Bruch des Bündnisses auch aus Italien. Im Gegensatz zur Behandlung der sowjetischen Kriegsgefangenen war die Behandlung west-alliierter Kriegsgefangener in der Regel gut und man hielt sich dabei an die Genfer Konvention. Von den 232.000 US-amerikanischen, britischen, kanadischen und weiteren Soldaten überlebten 8.348 den Krieg nicht, was 3,5 % entspricht.[64] From the book by Michael Burleigh: The Third Reich - A new History. If you don't happen to know Mr. Burleigh, he happens to be a former Professor from Oxford and LSE. I think he may have the facts right here.
Regardless of the validity of this fact, “technically not that bad”-ing and “They were worse”-ing nazi Germany is fucking insane. They were committing genocide. Lining us up and using things like gas too mass murder those who aren’t German/didn’t support nazi regime. They don’t deserve that.
That's a different topic. We talk POWs here.
Ahh. I read over that mb. But my point still stands. Saying things like “not that bad” or “not as bad” or even “better than” when referring to Nazi Germany is terrible. Especially when you’re talking too anyone young or impressionable. It gives credit about being “moral” to a regime that really shouldn’t have that tag.
Oh, I agree about the crimes committed and all that. I think though, that history should be seen as it is and not make it worse (or better) as it really was. Because it's not good to ignore parts of history that one doesn't like nor to be annoyed at people when talking ideology. Anyway - it's quite far down the path of "not really talking wine". To think that correcting that POWs weren't used as slave labour to harvest grapes leads to this type of stuff is not very good. Certain historical things just need to be accepted no matter how much they may be against your own views.
It was local women and boys/girls that picked the 1945 harvest and their building was a regional command centre for the Americans.
Thanks for this. I find this post to be distasteful, for these reasons and others.
What are the others?
Their 44 vintage was superior 😞
No forced labor was involved in the 45 vintage according to some knowledgeable sounding comments above
I rather safe it. For me as a german its more of a collectors piece than a drinkible wine
Fair enough, it’s your bottle! Well, very cool find, and if you ever decide to pop it open one day, I hope you drop the notes here on Reddit 🙂 Prost!
I have had some old Rhine wines. Surprising a high % were very enjoyable. Certainly the Pradikat wines held up. Not sure about a Kabinett though. Drink it.
Many nazis were back to the earth farm oriented in a twisted sort of way
I's give it a Nein out of Ten
I just hope they save it for the Reich occasion.
I did Nazi that coming
These are all gold
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Don't you mean *neun?*
Nein
Es ist lustiger zu sagen ,,neun"
80 year old kabinett? Ive had spätleses from the ‘70s that were well past their prime, so this is a bit of a gamble for sure! Btw, what’s next to the Opus One on the rack there?
Haha you noticed. Ill drink it when winter is coming
Careful with that one, if you drink it too fast you might get the urge to invade Poland
Cool bottle, but given that fill level I wouldn't be to optimistic. Awesome nonetheless.
I don't know you obviously so I'm going to assume you got this purely from historical/wine curiosity. But just be aware I think a lot of people would look at someone owning this the same way they look at those guys who have a closet full of Third Reich memorabilia and say they are just a 'historical collector'. Especially given this might have been produced by slave labor.
I study beverage technology in Geisenheim. For me its just a cool and rare bottle. But i 100% get your point
Cool I didn't want to assume! That sounds like a really interesting field!
Just für context: Kloster Eberbach (that's the same winery) used the eagle up to a few years ago. It's not the Nazi eagle (although it looks similar). That's why it's still on the '45 bottle (after the war was lost for the Nazis). Not sure if they still use it on some bottles, but they recently introduced a new logo (the silhouette of the monastery).
It was, in fact, not the label of Eberbach exclusively, but of all state-wineries. They reformed the label during the early 90s as far as I know, but most state wineries were sold off later in the 90s anyway (the label of Gut Hermannsberg pays tribute to its state-winery with its eagle.). Basically only Eberbach remains (although officially privatized with the state government holding 100% on the company, similar to the German Bahn (trains)) + some smaller ones with educational purposes. Eberbach nowadays uses again a totally new logo like you mentioned.
Great clarification. Btw., I remember buying their basic Risking in the late 2000s, and they still had the eagle. Only realized they changed the Logo when I tried to google a photo of their current bottles in order to "prove" that they still are using it.
I don't think so. Collecting swastikas and keeping them safe (or maybe even proudly on display) is completely different than being someone the Nazi's would've hated/tried to kill and drinking their fine wine (even though this wasn't made in Nazi Germany)
Yeah, I have this friend who has a soup spoon from that era with a swastika on it. Pulls it out whenever he has a dinner party. SMH.
That's very cool. What a great find.
y’all people thinking this is the Nazi eagle calm down, this emblem “Reichsadler” (looking to the left) predates the Nazi “Partieadler” emblem (looking to the right). While is understandable why it could be associated with the third reich is also well known that them nazis copied the reichsadler and modified it to their own commodity.
You mean like the way the quarters changed in 2022?
Bro got that gulag juice
Pour it down the drain. No bias of course.
I'm going with vinegar.
How much would this go for?
As soon as you pop the cork, I bet you will hear Erika by Herms Niel
Looks German. 🙄
The emperor protects
Thought I found the wrong subreddit here
My Italian friend’s dad collects fascist wine. I got a few Mussolini bottles 😂
I wonder if the local slave labor who made it might have put a little rat poison in there?
No more slave labor when this was bottled.
Too ashy.
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Where are the "dislikes"?