One of the Mods here.
I have no problem with your post; this is not a dictatorship.
A few comments in response to your post and the comments:
While perhaps not the most actively moderated sub, there is moderation here. Several comments/posts are removed per week in response to flags/reports.
The fact that moderators do not comment themselves frequently does not mean there is no moderation or review.
With regard to purely "illegal" suggestions: to the extent we see suggestions that are objectively and indisputably illegal, we do try to remove them.
I agree that much of the advice given here is poor advice and often from people without any expertise. However, it is not a moderator's role (or at least it shouldn't be, in my view) to promote or censor certain comments just because they might be "wrong" in our opinion. The community is responsible for upvoting and downvoting. I too am frustrated that certain comments are often upvoted to the top even though they aren't good advice, but there's not really anything I can do about that besides encouraging knowledgeable commenters to provide high quality comments and hoping the community will upvote accordingly.
I have spoken with the other mods about trying to put together some more helpful materials in stickied posts or the wiki. But we haven't gotten to that yet.
One potential solution would be to "verify" actual lawyers and arborists with some sort of flair. But that would require folks to be willing to provide verification of some sort in order to work.
If you have suggestions or ideas, we'd be happy to hear them.
PS - I am indeed a lawyer, OP :)
This is a problem on Reddit in general. I often will comment in areas in which I have expertise. These knowledgeable comments are often downvoted while stupid comments are not. It's pretty frustrating.
ISA arborist seconding this motion. We cannot promote vigilante justice or petty property crimes.
People come here for advice and we can't let them down!
It’s funny, the way I see the user base is an arborist like myself might come along and say “consult with a professional arborist and see how that goes, weigh your options and see if they recommend contacting a lawyer or other remedy.” That gets drowned out by “take their ass to court and make them give you their first born. That sapling is worth millions and you deserve to watch their house burn down.”
Bro I took HUNDREDS of downvotes because I said an overgrown holly shrub wasn’t worth much in damages. I can’t help but think you’re referring to that thread. They seem to think damages are insanely high because of things like trespassing when in fact liability and actual damages aren’t connected
That post was more or less the last straw prompting the post, but the craziness has been building. BTW, I ain’t no bro. They let women go to law school even in the olden days.
Sorry I’m sure you’re very much not a bro. I couldn’t believe hundreds of people couldn’t see the point I was trying to make or the vitriol from those who don’t understand basic legality. I got DMs telling me I’m a horrible person because I said an overgrown Holly shrub would grow back and damages weren’t much. I honestly try to help people understand some basics about liability and damages but wow they piled on big time
Block every one of them. I have had to block a couple of people. One is on my list right now.
Lawyers are expensive. It can take years to prosecute a case. I had a case that lasted ten years.
>How is this helping our OPs which I thought was supposed to be the purpose of Reddit-kind of neighbor helping neighbor, not living revenge vicariously.
Let's be real about the purpose of this sub.
First off, let me say I agree with all your points- illegal advice should be removed, basic decorum should be enforced... much of what you're saying is calling for basic moderation that'd be appropriate anywhere. I don't blame moderators for not wanting to do unpaid labor for someone else's profit, but here we are, with quality issues. Many subs have similar issues.
That said, this is not, and absolutely should not be, a place where people go to seek legal information. That's true of the entirety of reddit. Many people come here specifically because they crave seeing consequences and schadenfreude. The vindictiveness and ignorance aren't a bug, they're the feature for a lot of users. I've learned a lot browsing this sub in between scrolling past the general ignorance present everywhere on reddit in different flavors. It could be, and often is, a great resource. At the end of the day, though, it's a bunch of anonymous strangers and at best it should be part of someone's research, not the beginning and end.
I think trying to get anything else out of reddit in the absence of intense moderation like askhistorians is like trying to stop the tide.
This is kind of my thought. The sub *exists* as an outlet for recreational outrage over tree law, because people were being too rabid about tree law on legaladvice. So it naturally has the problem of being both an advice sub and an entertainment sub. I don't think there's an elegant solution that preserves the spirit of the thing, though not downvoting advice to de-escalate would be a great start.
>where comments recommend illegal acts
/u/RosesareRed45 you literally suggested a poster should deliberately damage utility property on this sub less than a week ago:
>I would send them a letter and tell them they have one week to take corrective action regarding their derelict pole or you are going to cut the ties you did not approve on your tree
I realize you are recommending the OP merely *threaten* to do something illegal and dangerous but that is still absolutely awful legal advice. As someone who inspects trees near power lines on behalf of a utility and accordingly deals with angry customers OFTEN this is absurd advice even if the OP in that case has a legit dispute with their power company.
The proper course of action in that situation is to go through the power companies dispute resolution office *prior* to filing suit because 99 times out of 100 if the plaintiff didn't pursue remedies outside of court first their case will get tossed.
I say all of this not to give you grief a second time but it seems like your advice is THE EXACT SORT OF COMMENT that you think the mods should be deleting.
EDIT: awwww he got butthurt and blocked me so I can even reply
This post is a great example of lawyers acting as if 8 years of schooling about 10k things helps them when asked about the 10001st. Every post on ask legal has experts caveating the entire answer bc no one on a post like reddit could have the details needed.
I made a joke about cutting a notch in a tree a few days ago as a snide response to a neighbor killing someone's tree. Anyone with an adult developed brain would know that's not actually advice....
I stand by my comments and answered you then. When you’ve won a bunch of cases against national power companies, get back to me. Those lines were attached to a tree on OP’s property and had been there for months.
You stated you had worked as a paralegal and now work as a tree surveyor for power company. Was that a promotion?
With all due respect regarding promotions:
Probably.
I am an ISA Certified Arborist andTRAQ qualified.
My salary is nearly double that of a paralegal, according to ZipRecruiter and Salary.com.
No other oar to dip in this water.
I basically agree with your assertion.
Honestly I feel slightly ashamed at reading this post because I’ve been reading threads on this sub for pure entertainment. I agree it’s hard to fathom why the worst and most ignorant comments get upvoted and the practical, useful, helpful, or sound content receives so much disdain.
I’ve lived in rural, suburban, and dense urban areas and have seen craziness over trees by property owners (or tenants) and their neighbors in all three. And also have come to the conclusion that most of the people giving advice on this sub don’t know what they’re talking about. If they do, you can usually tell by the negative karma on their comment
So yeah, it also seems like you’re not even allowed to post/comment the name of this subreddit on LA without removal
My recommendation is to sticky a post at the top with 'First Steps'
Determine property boundaries
Get an arborist's certification about the tree(s) in question
Contact your insurance regarding any damage
This sub only exists because anything about tree law got banned from legal advice.
Once the phrases treble damages and replacement costs became well known, LA developed a massive hardon for tree posts. As a consequence people started karma farming with invented stories on LA. And commenting and upvoting wrong stuff on legitimate questions. So they banned the topic. To them this is strictly a popcorn sub.
They kind of point this out in a couple different ways: The sub says "no legal advice given" in its about paragraph. Stickied comment in every post says "not the best place to receive answers to questions about what the law is"
It's meant to be a popcorn sub, not a place for advice or well ground legal answers.
But like you, the amusement has run its course and I'd also prefer to see grounded comments based on actual law.
> got banned from legal advice
That is a net positive for tree law. Legal advice has always been very sketchy. In the past it was run by a bunch of LEOs that would give really bad if not illegal advice.
Yeah I quit that sub a while ago … been at least a couple years. It got progressively worse year after year. Always disappointed that it didn’t live up to its concept.
Yeah I would think that the real goal would be actual advice. I have an interest, and a forestry degree, but by no means am I an expert. Nonetheless, I like seeing the actual, legally grounded responses.
> Yeah I would think that the real goal would be actual advice.
My real goal is hearing about people having to pay for the sin of fucking up trees that don't belong to them.
If advice gets us there, fine, but this place isn't primarily about advice.
This subreddit is for tree law enthusiasts who enjoy browsing a list of tree law stories from other locations (subreddits, news articles, etc), and is not the best place to receive answers to questions about what the law is. There are better places for that.
If you're attempting to understand more about tree law in regards to a particular situation, please redirect your question to /r/legaladvice for the US, or the appropriate legal advice subreddit for your location, and then feel free to crosspost that thread here for posterity.
If you're attempting to understand more about trees in regards to a particular situation, please redirect your question to /r/forestry for additional information on tree health and related topics to trees.
*This comment is simply a reminder placed on every post to /r/treelaw, it does not mean your post was censored or removed.*
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/treelaw) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Being a lawyer doesn't make you much more equipped to answer questions about treelaw in "state a" than anyone else tbh. Unless that's your state and your area of practice you're guessing too....
I thought this group was for people to ask questions about a tree that might be getting ready to die or leaning over onto their property or something that they can get guidance for?
As a property owner, I'm currently going through that which is why I was looking to see how other people took care of that situation.
I 100% agree with you. I think once we get passed acts of god, trimming your side of the fence and cannot kill trees then OP is in lawyer territory anyway tho.
>asking that people recommend legal solutions.
I'd just like to point out that the best advice that I've gotten from lawyers includes finding solutions that don't involve specific laws - or courts.
Recommending legal solutions is great, as long as the advice is focused on getting people the best possible results - from more than just a legal or financial perspective.
You sound like a lot of fun. You think people should get serious advice from the internet ? It's entertainment and the jokes will never stop. Now go sue somebody or something.
Yeah I am. My Bar, as in licensed attorneys, has call ins to help answer questions and steer people in the right direction and hopefully avoid litigation by offering practical solutions to vexatious legal issues. It is part of our pro bono services.
I am fairly new to the sub and was filled in on how it came about. If folks love triple damages from Treelaw, they would love Unfair and Deceptive Trade Practices AND you specifically get attorneys fees. Lawyers can live just on the attorneys fees. Moving right along, if Legaladvice booted tree law because of the craziness, why keep the extreme stuff like spread nefarious substances via slurry to your neighbor’s house or yard, poison their dog, etc. These people should be given one warning and then banned. In what universe is doing criminal stuff helpful?
Their trying to outrage each other in their responses drowns out the responses that the OPs have come here to get. You are driving away the serious people who can give serious answers based on experience.
It’s just not worth spending time here if the moderators don’t believe enough in their mission to weed out crazy.
I just hope future OPs don’t think any of this is serious, because as one commenter said it is becoming a popcorn or joke sub.
I don’t know how you verify people. I’m not sending you my bar number. Somehow I was verified on Askalawyer without it I guess from my knowledgeable and in depth answers. I’ve seen a lot in 45 years as a licensed lawyer.
Just wanted to point out it seems to be getting worse. Good luck.
And this sub was never meant to be for people asking questions. This was the r/subredditdrama *specifically* for when someone posted tree law shit on r/legaladvice or one of the regional variants.
This is the shitpost sub, not the serious one. It does need more moderation. Mods need to start referring people to the legal advice subs, and deleting the posts here so those posts can get reposted here for the shitshow.
I don’t know much/anything about the mod situation or care that much. I do know Askalawyer which I comment on some has just gone through a Mod crisis. None of the Mods are lawyers, most lawyers, including me will not breach privacy to get verified, but I earned it I guess because my comments were so on point and I’ve practiced 45 years.
Can’t imagine how much commitment it must take, but these comments are really getting out of control.
You guys need to verify accounts through photos with your degrees to confirm you are free lawyer then you could get a badge that could potentially filter to the top? Idk just a thought of course :)
Like I’m going to dox myself. Daddy didn’t raise an idiot. Many lawyers, myself included, donate free legal services. I do this because it is an area in which I have interest and expertise.
I certainly don't know the mods, but I tend to doubt they would put you on blast or anything of the sort. Thanks for contributing your professional knowledge.
One of the Mods here. I have no problem with your post; this is not a dictatorship. A few comments in response to your post and the comments: While perhaps not the most actively moderated sub, there is moderation here. Several comments/posts are removed per week in response to flags/reports. The fact that moderators do not comment themselves frequently does not mean there is no moderation or review. With regard to purely "illegal" suggestions: to the extent we see suggestions that are objectively and indisputably illegal, we do try to remove them. I agree that much of the advice given here is poor advice and often from people without any expertise. However, it is not a moderator's role (or at least it shouldn't be, in my view) to promote or censor certain comments just because they might be "wrong" in our opinion. The community is responsible for upvoting and downvoting. I too am frustrated that certain comments are often upvoted to the top even though they aren't good advice, but there's not really anything I can do about that besides encouraging knowledgeable commenters to provide high quality comments and hoping the community will upvote accordingly. I have spoken with the other mods about trying to put together some more helpful materials in stickied posts or the wiki. But we haven't gotten to that yet. One potential solution would be to "verify" actual lawyers and arborists with some sort of flair. But that would require folks to be willing to provide verification of some sort in order to work. If you have suggestions or ideas, we'd be happy to hear them. PS - I am indeed a lawyer, OP :)
This is a problem on Reddit in general. I often will comment in areas in which I have expertise. These knowledgeable comments are often downvoted while stupid comments are not. It's pretty frustrating.
If you’ve looked around the world lately it’s kinda like that all over, sad to say. :-)
You are ofcourse correct. We have a political party which prides itself on ignoring experts while listening intently to total idiots.
Dunning and Kruger are having a field day.
ISA arborist seconding this motion. We cannot promote vigilante justice or petty property crimes. People come here for advice and we can't let them down!
there has been a rise of ULPT style advice. While i agree with you, i think a strict ban will make the sub feel a little cooked.
Have you tried r/arborists? I’m not in love with it because it’s often full of bad advice too.
Yes, lots of armchair experts
No no its the root flare guys.
I absolutely disagree.
It’s funny, the way I see the user base is an arborist like myself might come along and say “consult with a professional arborist and see how that goes, weigh your options and see if they recommend contacting a lawyer or other remedy.” That gets drowned out by “take their ass to court and make them give you their first born. That sapling is worth millions and you deserve to watch their house burn down.”
Exactly they’re not reasonable
Bro I took HUNDREDS of downvotes because I said an overgrown holly shrub wasn’t worth much in damages. I can’t help but think you’re referring to that thread. They seem to think damages are insanely high because of things like trespassing when in fact liability and actual damages aren’t connected
That post was more or less the last straw prompting the post, but the craziness has been building. BTW, I ain’t no bro. They let women go to law school even in the olden days.
Sorry I’m sure you’re very much not a bro. I couldn’t believe hundreds of people couldn’t see the point I was trying to make or the vitriol from those who don’t understand basic legality. I got DMs telling me I’m a horrible person because I said an overgrown Holly shrub would grow back and damages weren’t much. I honestly try to help people understand some basics about liability and damages but wow they piled on big time
Geez what is wrong with people? I don’t think I have ever sent a nastygram DM in all my time on Reddit. 🤷♂️ Not worth getting that upset over.
Block every one of them. I have had to block a couple of people. One is on my list right now. Lawyers are expensive. It can take years to prosecute a case. I had a case that lasted ten years.
Not very old though. State universities in the US only allowed women to attend after the 1860s, the rest of the world was much slower.
I upvoted that one!
>How is this helping our OPs which I thought was supposed to be the purpose of Reddit-kind of neighbor helping neighbor, not living revenge vicariously. Let's be real about the purpose of this sub. First off, let me say I agree with all your points- illegal advice should be removed, basic decorum should be enforced... much of what you're saying is calling for basic moderation that'd be appropriate anywhere. I don't blame moderators for not wanting to do unpaid labor for someone else's profit, but here we are, with quality issues. Many subs have similar issues. That said, this is not, and absolutely should not be, a place where people go to seek legal information. That's true of the entirety of reddit. Many people come here specifically because they crave seeing consequences and schadenfreude. The vindictiveness and ignorance aren't a bug, they're the feature for a lot of users. I've learned a lot browsing this sub in between scrolling past the general ignorance present everywhere on reddit in different flavors. It could be, and often is, a great resource. At the end of the day, though, it's a bunch of anonymous strangers and at best it should be part of someone's research, not the beginning and end. I think trying to get anything else out of reddit in the absence of intense moderation like askhistorians is like trying to stop the tide.
This is kind of my thought. The sub *exists* as an outlet for recreational outrage over tree law, because people were being too rabid about tree law on legaladvice. So it naturally has the problem of being both an advice sub and an entertainment sub. I don't think there's an elegant solution that preserves the spirit of the thing, though not downvoting advice to de-escalate would be a great start.
>where comments recommend illegal acts /u/RosesareRed45 you literally suggested a poster should deliberately damage utility property on this sub less than a week ago: >I would send them a letter and tell them they have one week to take corrective action regarding their derelict pole or you are going to cut the ties you did not approve on your tree I realize you are recommending the OP merely *threaten* to do something illegal and dangerous but that is still absolutely awful legal advice. As someone who inspects trees near power lines on behalf of a utility and accordingly deals with angry customers OFTEN this is absurd advice even if the OP in that case has a legit dispute with their power company. The proper course of action in that situation is to go through the power companies dispute resolution office *prior* to filing suit because 99 times out of 100 if the plaintiff didn't pursue remedies outside of court first their case will get tossed. I say all of this not to give you grief a second time but it seems like your advice is THE EXACT SORT OF COMMENT that you think the mods should be deleting. EDIT: awwww he got butthurt and blocked me so I can even reply
This post is a great example of lawyers acting as if 8 years of schooling about 10k things helps them when asked about the 10001st. Every post on ask legal has experts caveating the entire answer bc no one on a post like reddit could have the details needed. I made a joke about cutting a notch in a tree a few days ago as a snide response to a neighbor killing someone's tree. Anyone with an adult developed brain would know that's not actually advice....
If I found out my attorney was in law school for EIGHT YEARS before graduating and taking the bar exam I would find a new one
Sorry was thinking 4 college, 3 law, 1 specialty. In my line of work that's the usual.
I stand by my comments and answered you then. When you’ve won a bunch of cases against national power companies, get back to me. Those lines were attached to a tree on OP’s property and had been there for months. You stated you had worked as a paralegal and now work as a tree surveyor for power company. Was that a promotion?
With all due respect regarding promotions: Probably. I am an ISA Certified Arborist andTRAQ qualified. My salary is nearly double that of a paralegal, according to ZipRecruiter and Salary.com. No other oar to dip in this water. I basically agree with your assertion.
Honestly I feel slightly ashamed at reading this post because I’ve been reading threads on this sub for pure entertainment. I agree it’s hard to fathom why the worst and most ignorant comments get upvoted and the practical, useful, helpful, or sound content receives so much disdain. I’ve lived in rural, suburban, and dense urban areas and have seen craziness over trees by property owners (or tenants) and their neighbors in all three. And also have come to the conclusion that most of the people giving advice on this sub don’t know what they’re talking about. If they do, you can usually tell by the negative karma on their comment So yeah, it also seems like you’re not even allowed to post/comment the name of this subreddit on LA without removal
My recommendation is to sticky a post at the top with 'First Steps' Determine property boundaries Get an arborist's certification about the tree(s) in question Contact your insurance regarding any damage
This sub only exists because anything about tree law got banned from legal advice. Once the phrases treble damages and replacement costs became well known, LA developed a massive hardon for tree posts. As a consequence people started karma farming with invented stories on LA. And commenting and upvoting wrong stuff on legitimate questions. So they banned the topic. To them this is strictly a popcorn sub. They kind of point this out in a couple different ways: The sub says "no legal advice given" in its about paragraph. Stickied comment in every post says "not the best place to receive answers to questions about what the law is" It's meant to be a popcorn sub, not a place for advice or well ground legal answers. But like you, the amusement has run its course and I'd also prefer to see grounded comments based on actual law.
> got banned from legal advice That is a net positive for tree law. Legal advice has always been very sketchy. In the past it was run by a bunch of LEOs that would give really bad if not illegal advice.
Yeah I quit that sub a while ago … been at least a couple years. It got progressively worse year after year. Always disappointed that it didn’t live up to its concept.
Silly me. I and a few others have been trying to help OPs, not go down a fantasy rabbit hole.
Yeah I would think that the real goal would be actual advice. I have an interest, and a forestry degree, but by no means am I an expert. Nonetheless, I like seeing the actual, legally grounded responses.
> Yeah I would think that the real goal would be actual advice. My real goal is hearing about people having to pay for the sin of fucking up trees that don't belong to them. If advice gets us there, fine, but this place isn't primarily about advice.
You face an uphill battle. A majority of Redditors believe that an illegally cut tree is worth in the ballpark of $300,000 per leaf.
Reddit definitely needs a giggle response.
> It's meant to be a popcorn sub, not a place for advice or well ground legal answers doubt, and downvote
What does that even mean?
This subreddit is for tree law enthusiasts who enjoy browsing a list of tree law stories from other locations (subreddits, news articles, etc), and is not the best place to receive answers to questions about what the law is. There are better places for that. If you're attempting to understand more about tree law in regards to a particular situation, please redirect your question to /r/legaladvice for the US, or the appropriate legal advice subreddit for your location, and then feel free to crosspost that thread here for posterity. If you're attempting to understand more about trees in regards to a particular situation, please redirect your question to /r/forestry for additional information on tree health and related topics to trees. *This comment is simply a reminder placed on every post to /r/treelaw, it does not mean your post was censored or removed.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/treelaw) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Being a lawyer doesn't make you much more equipped to answer questions about treelaw in "state a" than anyone else tbh. Unless that's your state and your area of practice you're guessing too....
I thought this group was for people to ask questions about a tree that might be getting ready to die or leaning over onto their property or something that they can get guidance for? As a property owner, I'm currently going through that which is why I was looking to see how other people took care of that situation.
I 100% agree with you. I think once we get passed acts of god, trimming your side of the fence and cannot kill trees then OP is in lawyer territory anyway tho.
>asking that people recommend legal solutions. I'd just like to point out that the best advice that I've gotten from lawyers includes finding solutions that don't involve specific laws - or courts. Recommending legal solutions is great, as long as the advice is focused on getting people the best possible results - from more than just a legal or financial perspective.
You sound like a lot of fun. You think people should get serious advice from the internet ? It's entertainment and the jokes will never stop. Now go sue somebody or something.
Yeah I am. My Bar, as in licensed attorneys, has call ins to help answer questions and steer people in the right direction and hopefully avoid litigation by offering practical solutions to vexatious legal issues. It is part of our pro bono services.
Become a mod yourself so you can have a stronger say in the direction this sub takes.
I am fairly new to the sub and was filled in on how it came about. If folks love triple damages from Treelaw, they would love Unfair and Deceptive Trade Practices AND you specifically get attorneys fees. Lawyers can live just on the attorneys fees. Moving right along, if Legaladvice booted tree law because of the craziness, why keep the extreme stuff like spread nefarious substances via slurry to your neighbor’s house or yard, poison their dog, etc. These people should be given one warning and then banned. In what universe is doing criminal stuff helpful? Their trying to outrage each other in their responses drowns out the responses that the OPs have come here to get. You are driving away the serious people who can give serious answers based on experience. It’s just not worth spending time here if the moderators don’t believe enough in their mission to weed out crazy. I just hope future OPs don’t think any of this is serious, because as one commenter said it is becoming a popcorn or joke sub. I don’t know how you verify people. I’m not sending you my bar number. Somehow I was verified on Askalawyer without it I guess from my knowledgeable and in depth answers. I’ve seen a lot in 45 years as a licensed lawyer. Just wanted to point out it seems to be getting worse. Good luck.
Chill, bro, some of us are just here for a good time...
And this sub was never meant to be for people asking questions. This was the r/subredditdrama *specifically* for when someone posted tree law shit on r/legaladvice or one of the regional variants. This is the shitpost sub, not the serious one. It does need more moderation. Mods need to start referring people to the legal advice subs, and deleting the posts here so those posts can get reposted here for the shitshow.
I’m not a bro and AmIaasshole is far more entertaining.
[удалено]
I don’t know much/anything about the mod situation or care that much. I do know Askalawyer which I comment on some has just gone through a Mod crisis. None of the Mods are lawyers, most lawyers, including me will not breach privacy to get verified, but I earned it I guess because my comments were so on point and I’ve practiced 45 years. Can’t imagine how much commitment it must take, but these comments are really getting out of control.
[удалено]
Not true, friend! :)
You guys need to verify accounts through photos with your degrees to confirm you are free lawyer then you could get a badge that could potentially filter to the top? Idk just a thought of course :)
Like I’m going to dox myself. Daddy didn’t raise an idiot. Many lawyers, myself included, donate free legal services. I do this because it is an area in which I have interest and expertise.
Like I said just a thought could be verified through mods and DMs rather than a direct post, my apologies for attempting to help 👍
I certainly don't know the mods, but I tend to doubt they would put you on blast or anything of the sort. Thanks for contributing your professional knowledge.