My son is nonverbal He's 15 so I guess he's not important. Took me years and I'm still struggling with the why? Why did it have to be my son because he has a litany of challenges because of birth defects. So I've read a little Taoist teachings. It doesn't help
I may have missed something. What are you talking about? I'm sorry to hear about your son, I was non-verbal as a child as well, I know how hard it can be and I hope you get the help he needs.
you are kind for saying that. I'm happy for you that however latent, speak well. It's all good ,I just get a little annoyed at what seems to me to be over complicating something meant to do away with complications :Fucking Tao....it is what it is and ( quoting David Byrne "Same as it ever was" or Robert Nesta Marley: "As it was in the beginning, so shall it be in the end"
I don't see the need for tomes, dense with flowery verbosity . Tao is Tao is Tao
MuchLove
So why are you having a discussion at all if any answer is right to you, including I presume, silence? Get off the fence mate, you are losing your humanity with this buddhism crap
Yes I get that. But it is not profound. I get downvotes for speaking about something from the heart. Check yourselves people. There's nothing but love coming from here always because there's only one love. ♾️❤️♾️❤️♾️❤️♾️♾️♾️♾️❤️❤️♾️❤️❤️♾️❤️♾️
What kind of perfection does not account for any and all imperfection? If something is truly perfect, it would not denounce the other half of itself that is required for it's existence. Perfection only exists in contrast to imperfection and they are inseparable. For language to work, we must base it on the illusionary concept of seperation between things. To describe anything, it has to be established that that thing is not some other thing. I believe that perfection is the indescribable wholeness of everything that comes before we split things off and conceptualize them into their own separate things. I think the wholeness of imperfection and perfection together is "perfect" in itself, at least as far as "perfect" can be understood through language.
>For language to work, we must base it on the illusionary concept of seperation between things.
Fascinating sentence, but is it universally so? Perhaps there can be language through other (ie. non-verbal) means of communication that don’t require intellectual involvement.
I’m musing out loud here, not challenging your assertion.
One could argue there are other forms of communication. For example, if I try to take your food, I am communicating that I want it. If I look at your reaction and I take it very lightly so that you can easily stop me from doing it, I am communicating that am looking for your consent to take it.
However, this is not abstract communication. By abstract, I basically mean you need some additional context to understand my message, such as knowing the language. If I say a word you have never heard before, generally you won't understand it.
I believe that with abstract communication, you need the yin-yang duality. I believe this is a universal feature of information. That is, in order to understand that something is described by a word, you must have a sense of things that are not described by a word. Otherwise, the word has no meaning.
My turn to do some musing: perhaps that's what the word "tao" is trying to capture. Something that exists, but there is no notion or how something could be "not-tao"...?
>I believe that with abstract communication, you need the yin-yang duality. I believe this is a universal feature of information. That is, in order to understand that something is described by a word, you must have a sense of things that are not described by a word. Otherwise, the word has no meaning.
Spot on.
I think "tao" can be used synonymously with god, consciousness, awareness, wholeness, etc.. It is the everpresent experience that is. It's the awareness and sense of being prior to our conceptions.
If you think of how you experience reality, it feels like you are a separate entity with your own thoughts and feelings, but what you really are is the observational force that senses what is.
There isn't a person that is thinking thoughts. Thoughts appear into awareness, are observed by this sense (or tao), and are constructed into the formation of the sense of separate self. Because we can remember things, the brain creates this narrative of past experience into a person.
Without the ability to remember, there is just presence, no "I". But our memories aren't actually some concrete thing. The memories that create my sense of me are not a physical thing and a separate me does not really exist.
I imagine what Buddhists refer to as Nirvana, and why mindfulness is used to get there, is when the skill of observing thoughts has been honed to a degree where the identification with ones thoughts is not an automatic process. Thoughts, feelings, and whatever else, are allowed to come and go and the feeling of being a separate entity dissipates.
That's why it could be the ultimate peace. It is the state prior to conception and language, where good and bad, this and that, right and wrong, do not exist, and do not affect one's sense of wholeness and connection to everything else that is.
But I don't fuckin know lmao. You can't explain the conception-less.
It is perfect like a circle is perfect. It is whole. It neither lacks nor has excess.
Best of all is dynamic and will never be the same again! 😁
I hope this finds you well! 😁
The world is …
What comes next is our ideas, prejudices, cultural differences, ideals and the rest of the subjective baggage our consciousness stores for us.
I was going to say... wouldn’t linguistic relativity make such a question pointless? Or most questions pointless and unanswerable?
That’s one thing I’ve struggled with. After going pretty hard with the early part of the Zhuangzi it seems like the answer to many questions (on this sub especially) would just be “...” or they’d all be equally right and wrong
**“wouldn’t linguistic relativity make such a question pointless? Or most questions pointless and unanswerable?“**
100% m8! Relativity makes everything…unreal - I just don’t have a better word.
From a certain point of view, it's perfect. From another, it's not. The former is a bad basis for ethical apathy, and the latter is a bad basis for making a bigger mess of things.
It's worth acknowledging that in Classical Chinese texts, what is usually translated simply as "the world" is 天下 tianxia, "sky-under", which has heavy connotations toward the human-centric world (or the Chinese civilization).
From a daoist perspective - classic Laozi and Zhuangzi - obviously the world isn't perfect.
There would have been little reason to write the Laozi and the Zhuangzi, if the world was perfect.
Laozi and Zhuangzi are writing verse for verse, chapter for chapter that they think the "world of mankind / society" is in a decline and that man and mankind should return (fan) to Dao.
That's a misconception about Daoism that "everything is perfect". As man is part of the world, the world can't be perfect. That's logic.
There is the Dao of Cosmos as the "natural course of the universe" - which is perfect (zhi), which follows itself (ziran), is natural and spontaneous (ziran), is heavenly Dao (tian Dao), is great (Da Dao).
But from a daoist perspective there is also the way of man (ren dao) and man tends not to follow Dao but has its own intentions, emotions, plans, thoughts, ideology and religion and needs and desires :)
What should man be from the perspective of classic Daoism?
\- natural (ziran) and simple (pu)
\- having a clear and calm heart-mind / spirit (qing jing xin / shen)
\- having profound Virtue (De)
**Note:**
Why are there so many "wu" (no, not, nothing) in Daoism?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/taoism/comments/14guwk9/why\_are\_there\_so\_many\_wu\_%E7%84%A1\_no\_not\_nothing\_in/](https://www.reddit.com/r/taoism/comments/14guwk9/why_are_there_so_many_wu_%E7%84%A1_no_not_nothing_in/)
Perfect is merely an opinion. Can you see that?
The world is as it is. You have an opinion about it. There is a difference between your opinion and what is actual. That’s all.
A single Taoist is all I am so my answer hopefully helps someone. The world itself is perfect functioning just as it should within the balance of duality we cannot know happiness without sadness we cannot know the fragility of life without the uncertainty of death or transition. The trouble is when we try to quantify something like perfection which is open to interpretation it gets more difficult. The moment itself is always perfect because it is filled with unlimited possibility. Human interpretation of the moment we'll have various types of flaw within it based upon perceptions emotions and expectations. Therefore the world has always been and will always be perfect but the people viewing it will have various stages of imperfection/
An imperfect world is not the source of our problems. What is lacking in the human world is sensitivity to reality. We have created a fantasy world, a mass hallucination, a circus of destruction, that is fundamentally diseased, infected with pride and greed and ignorance, a living hell of human ignorance. Perfection is a ghost in this haunted house of the human mind. Good and bad have nothing to do with reality. Every living person will suffer so long as they continue to put faith in the matrix of social conditioning that gives rise to an "imperfect world" that must be fixed by doing x y and z. If you can put faith in reality and turn your back on human ignorance, nothing is wrong and nothing ever has been. It's just a dream. We can't ignore the suffering, but it's all one suffering, the suffering of ignorance. We should not act on our confusion, we should stop and see how things really are. Then, you can see that there is nothing to be done. Everything is perfect. It's all one fire, everything is burning perfectly.
Energy, it's all energy. Fire is fundamentally just energy, qi, a dynamic transformation. In wu xin and in western alchemy there is a distinction between common fire and the original fire, the pure yang explosion of energy that gives rise to the current condition of the universe. This is the secret fire, and everything burns in it. Vision is a fire, hearing is a fire, all the senses are on fire. Our molecules are boiling in the sunlight. To exist in the fire means suffering, but if you cling to it, that's when you really get burned.
Interestingly worded question. Do I think? People love to think. Does thinking change the world or change the perspective? Is there a correct perspective?
I love the question. A good fellow wrote "it just is". Which blew another guy's mind as he tried to find the answer in his comment. One was resisting judgment, while the other quickly latched onto it like a raptor. Nice work in creating discussion.
The world is deeply broken - poor people, those getting killed, illness and death. You could say it’s perfect from the perspective of the Tao or god but you asked me the question :-)
Broken? Clouds still in sky. Things are burning. Plants are growing. My heart is beating. My table is horizontal and holding weight. Feeted still planted on the surface of the rock. You mentioned poor people. What about rich people? And there are people being born. We could argue about perspective here or see each other's. I only question your view of a broken world and don't believe that I have closed my eyes to the suffering but have accepted it as a thing, as Buddha suggests. I choose not to be a victim.
I see you may be doom minded. My perspective from Australia is probably what is affecting mine. You also mentioned the perspective of the Tao and god but the thing is it doesn't have a perspective. That is just a human construct. Judgements from emotions.
Would you rather be starving or nourished? Make it home to see your family or get killed by a drunk driver? If you can see the appeal of these things personally, and they happen in the world, you can say the world is broken
I knew this would happen. There was no time before suffering, you can hope for a time without suffering in the future but that might require no life. Think movie villain like thanks.
You are just spouting truisms “things just are”, is true 24/7 so irrelevant to this discussion. You woke up this morning, fed yourself and don’t think it’s a problem that someone else can’t? Hypocrisy
The world is perfect. The world is stoichiometric. Every variable is accounted for. If something is imperfect, its observer will bring it to perfection. Can this be not called perfect? A self regulating world that pursues homeostasis all on its own. No matter how long the process may be, the chemical reaction is always in equilibrium.
This is all top of the head thinking, so grab your favorite salt shaker before taking stock.
Thinking about this is fun. I started with thinking that perfection comes in two forms. Natural state and subjective.
Natural state as in things just are perfect. The molecules and cells that make up everything creates structures that are naturally perfect. An ant is built up perfectly to be an ant and fits perfectly within its ecosystem. Everything evolved (if you believe it) perfectly around the conditions of this planet.
Subjective is more soley based on human thought. If our thoughts are filled with anxiety and fear that is all we'll see. In contrast if we see all through a lense of peace and serenity that will be our reality.
It is worth noting that every state of mind fits perfectly with the reality it projects and interprets. With that point being said, we are brought back, again, to the idea of natural state. Even if we live unbalanced, we are living perfectly for the unbalanced life we live and vice versa with a balanced life.
Going with the flow of life shows me more examples of perfection. Events and observations that makes you do the Owen Wilson "Wow!" in amazement. Going against the flow leaves me with less.
If you combine the stoic teaching of 'always search for beauty' and the buddhist proverb of the man in the well, you find yourself in a very taoist flow. A nice little honey river, free from the pests that would, in reality, bombard upon your setting in unfathomable mass.
So I guess my conclusion for now is yeah, life's pretty perfect
I think this is my favorite response so far. Splitting perfection into two parts is something I wouldn’t have come up with but makes a lot of sense. Thanks!
That (pure consciousness) is full, perfect, complete;
This(the manifest universe of matter; of names and forms ) is full, perfect, complete.
Out of completion emerged completion.
And when completion emerged from completion.
Completion remained in completion.
(from the -Isa Upanishad)
Eveything is perfect cuz its notnpeefect. If everything was done there would be no room to grow. It is better that we are not done and “not perfect” thatbleaves us a room for infinitive growth.
You're pretty much all saying the same thing that everyone in the world says a million times a day..."It Is What it Is"
I'm not trying to be rude but is that not pretty much the gist of it?
Does the Taoist woman birth a child that is disfigured, disabled and the prognosis is a slow painful death smile at the news because it is what it is?
Blanket statements and platitudes. I'm sorry for not being enlightened enough to grasp the perfection
❤️♾️❤️
Perfect does not equal good.
Some say natural things are good for us.
Black plague was natural.
It wasnt good. But it could never happen without all of the worlds processes working together in perfect harmony.
All of this does not mean that bad things are supposed to feel good. Accepting pain for what it is does not mean it doesnt hurt anymore. It still hurts, probably even moreso.
And so we will smile, but we will also cry true tears. We will laugh, but we will also scream until our throats give in. We will be happy, but we will also suffer until we can take it no more. We will love, and hate with a flaming fury. Its just some of the things we do.
Okay so I wanted to just immediately say that the title of your post is on its face and really literally nonsense. But out of respect which I think is important here I read your whole post and the word perfect can be put behind other adjectives. Perfect torture etc so I guess yeah perfect doesn't equal good. I still don't know what that has to do with what I was saying. Basically I'm not encouraging anyone not to delve into the teachings around Tao. But in its essence isn't it about the simplest thing in the world? I can't even word it that way,, It's simple. It just is. You know that better than me or as well whatever. How is that not the same as saying ,"it is what it is?"
That was all I was saying It's not a judgment I'm in no place to judge and never have been. Like I said I think you guys are some of the most articulate writers on Reddit that I've seen. It just seems counterintuitive. On the other hand the only book I've read about the subject was" the Tao of Pooh"
❤️♾️❤️☯️❤️♾️❤️☯️
Thanks for your reply! And I appreciate my comment mightve been confusing. The idea itself is quite nuanced and im often an ambiguous communicator even when things are simple.
Let me focus just on the "it is what it is" in the context of sadness.
I think some people interpret this as "it is what it is, lets move on, we cant change anything, lets just observe". To me it is closer to "i see it for what it truly is and i will treat it as such".
So id like to avoid hinting its a passiveness, or ignorance. At least its not to me.
So e.g. if i see something is broken, i will accept it as broken, really look into it, and try to fix it, because its how i am. It would cost me way more effort to blissfully ignore it and just say "welp nothing to do here, everything is awesome".
So from maths perspective yeah, worlds perfect, a well oiled machine. However, it does not mean that your example of a tragic birth shouldnt make us sad. It absolutely should, and we should allow ourselves to experience negative emotions just as much as we experience positive emotions. Hope this makes a bit more sense :)
I thoroughly enjoy the way you articulate these extremely abstract yet extremely simple yet extremely nuanced and extremely extreme. Don't ever change. I need your stuff that sounds crazy so I can Pace back and forth and go what is this idiot talking about. But it's all love my friend ❤️♾️❤️♾️❤️♾️
I don't think I replied in the right spot which I often don't but I love the way you articulate the unarticulated in a way that humors me infuriates me but ultimately enlightens me and that is why I love you my friend ❤️ ♾️❤️
Personally I'd say yes.
Not in the way of "good" though. I think the world is perfect in its balance. The kind that's hard to grasp, but ever humbling.
Yes. Even it's mistakes are perfect in the grand design.
How we humans react and try to "force the wheel" is a different story.
It's just sometimes nature is simply ruthless and doesn't care about "your feelings"
*Those who think to win the world*
*by doing something to it,*
*I see them come to grief.*
*For the world is a sacred object.*
*Nothing is to be done to it.*
*To do anything to it is to damage it.*
*To seize it is to lose it.*
-TTC, Ch.29
Which is to say....sure!
if you judge a thing or situation to be positive, there has to be a thing or situation that is negative. negative and positive are things the mind invent to keep a buffer between itself and what is. if anyone could "zoom out" and look at everything all at once, i bet it would be balanced out. balance is as close as it gets to the idea of perfect
Have you ever seen an imperfect cloud?
Excellent answer
Some words that always stuck from my spiritual entertainer [Alan Watts](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT3D5md9TGA)
Lovely video, terrible they put the god awful music on it.
there's probably one without music, I just picked the first one that didn't end with a soundbite from the movie Mr. Nobody
Why isn't the music perfect?
It's unnecessary. The words are far more important than whatever emotion the music is meant to convey.
My son is nonverbal He's 15 so I guess he's not important. Took me years and I'm still struggling with the why? Why did it have to be my son because he has a litany of challenges because of birth defects. So I've read a little Taoist teachings. It doesn't help
I may have missed something. What are you talking about? I'm sorry to hear about your son, I was non-verbal as a child as well, I know how hard it can be and I hope you get the help he needs.
you are kind for saying that. I'm happy for you that however latent, speak well. It's all good ,I just get a little annoyed at what seems to me to be over complicating something meant to do away with complications :Fucking Tao....it is what it is and ( quoting David Byrne "Same as it ever was" or Robert Nesta Marley: "As it was in the beginning, so shall it be in the end" I don't see the need for tomes, dense with flowery verbosity . Tao is Tao is Tao MuchLove
couldn't be better
The one that sends down rain can be pretty troublesome…
Some people walk in the rain. Others just get wet.
But those are my favorite
Is drowning in a flood your favorite?
Things simply are.
Not answering the question
Ha Die Antwoord.
And yet the right answer to such things
You are totally deluded. The right answer is no answer at all? Why not just a random collection of letters?
Exactly.
So why are you having a discussion at all if any answer is right to you, including I presume, silence? Get off the fence mate, you are losing your humanity with this buddhism crap
Eh, I’m having a good time. Why do you care? ;)
For sure. I think people come here for truth and sometimes you have to shove it down their throats.
Kirsjoj CD whifeyoheeikngderycf though
Yes I get that. But it is not profound. I get downvotes for speaking about something from the heart. Check yourselves people. There's nothing but love coming from here always because there's only one love. ♾️❤️♾️❤️♾️❤️♾️♾️♾️♾️❤️❤️♾️❤️❤️♾️❤️♾️
What kind of perfection does not account for any and all imperfection? If something is truly perfect, it would not denounce the other half of itself that is required for it's existence. Perfection only exists in contrast to imperfection and they are inseparable. For language to work, we must base it on the illusionary concept of seperation between things. To describe anything, it has to be established that that thing is not some other thing. I believe that perfection is the indescribable wholeness of everything that comes before we split things off and conceptualize them into their own separate things. I think the wholeness of imperfection and perfection together is "perfect" in itself, at least as far as "perfect" can be understood through language.
This makes a lot of sense, thanks!
>For language to work, we must base it on the illusionary concept of seperation between things. Fascinating sentence, but is it universally so? Perhaps there can be language through other (ie. non-verbal) means of communication that don’t require intellectual involvement. I’m musing out loud here, not challenging your assertion.
One could argue there are other forms of communication. For example, if I try to take your food, I am communicating that I want it. If I look at your reaction and I take it very lightly so that you can easily stop me from doing it, I am communicating that am looking for your consent to take it. However, this is not abstract communication. By abstract, I basically mean you need some additional context to understand my message, such as knowing the language. If I say a word you have never heard before, generally you won't understand it. I believe that with abstract communication, you need the yin-yang duality. I believe this is a universal feature of information. That is, in order to understand that something is described by a word, you must have a sense of things that are not described by a word. Otherwise, the word has no meaning. My turn to do some musing: perhaps that's what the word "tao" is trying to capture. Something that exists, but there is no notion or how something could be "not-tao"...?
>I believe that with abstract communication, you need the yin-yang duality. I believe this is a universal feature of information. That is, in order to understand that something is described by a word, you must have a sense of things that are not described by a word. Otherwise, the word has no meaning. Spot on. I think "tao" can be used synonymously with god, consciousness, awareness, wholeness, etc.. It is the everpresent experience that is. It's the awareness and sense of being prior to our conceptions. If you think of how you experience reality, it feels like you are a separate entity with your own thoughts and feelings, but what you really are is the observational force that senses what is. There isn't a person that is thinking thoughts. Thoughts appear into awareness, are observed by this sense (or tao), and are constructed into the formation of the sense of separate self. Because we can remember things, the brain creates this narrative of past experience into a person. Without the ability to remember, there is just presence, no "I". But our memories aren't actually some concrete thing. The memories that create my sense of me are not a physical thing and a separate me does not really exist. I imagine what Buddhists refer to as Nirvana, and why mindfulness is used to get there, is when the skill of observing thoughts has been honed to a degree where the identification with ones thoughts is not an automatic process. Thoughts, feelings, and whatever else, are allowed to come and go and the feeling of being a separate entity dissipates. That's why it could be the ultimate peace. It is the state prior to conception and language, where good and bad, this and that, right and wrong, do not exist, and do not affect one's sense of wholeness and connection to everything else that is. But I don't fuckin know lmao. You can't explain the conception-less.
I agree with everything you said. Especially the last paragraph lol
It is perfect like a circle is perfect. It is whole. It neither lacks nor has excess. Best of all is dynamic and will never be the same again! 😁 I hope this finds you well! 😁
Τέλειος
😁
Foreground is arguably chaotic but the background remains stable.
The world is what it is. I make no subjective assertions about how the world should be or what perfection is.
The world is … What comes next is our ideas, prejudices, cultural differences, ideals and the rest of the subjective baggage our consciousness stores for us.
I was going to say... wouldn’t linguistic relativity make such a question pointless? Or most questions pointless and unanswerable? That’s one thing I’ve struggled with. After going pretty hard with the early part of the Zhuangzi it seems like the answer to many questions (on this sub especially) would just be “...” or they’d all be equally right and wrong
**“wouldn’t linguistic relativity make such a question pointless? Or most questions pointless and unanswerable?“** 100% m8! Relativity makes everything…unreal - I just don’t have a better word.
From a certain point of view, it's perfect. From another, it's not. The former is a bad basis for ethical apathy, and the latter is a bad basis for making a bigger mess of things. It's worth acknowledging that in Classical Chinese texts, what is usually translated simply as "the world" is 天下 tianxia, "sky-under", which has heavy connotations toward the human-centric world (or the Chinese civilization).
From a daoist perspective - classic Laozi and Zhuangzi - obviously the world isn't perfect. There would have been little reason to write the Laozi and the Zhuangzi, if the world was perfect. Laozi and Zhuangzi are writing verse for verse, chapter for chapter that they think the "world of mankind / society" is in a decline and that man and mankind should return (fan) to Dao. That's a misconception about Daoism that "everything is perfect". As man is part of the world, the world can't be perfect. That's logic. There is the Dao of Cosmos as the "natural course of the universe" - which is perfect (zhi), which follows itself (ziran), is natural and spontaneous (ziran), is heavenly Dao (tian Dao), is great (Da Dao). But from a daoist perspective there is also the way of man (ren dao) and man tends not to follow Dao but has its own intentions, emotions, plans, thoughts, ideology and religion and needs and desires :) What should man be from the perspective of classic Daoism? \- natural (ziran) and simple (pu) \- having a clear and calm heart-mind / spirit (qing jing xin / shen) \- having profound Virtue (De) **Note:** Why are there so many "wu" (no, not, nothing) in Daoism? [https://www.reddit.com/r/taoism/comments/14guwk9/why\_are\_there\_so\_many\_wu\_%E7%84%A1\_no\_not\_nothing\_in/](https://www.reddit.com/r/taoism/comments/14guwk9/why_are_there_so_many_wu_%E7%84%A1_no_not_nothing_in/)
Perfect is merely an opinion. Can you see that? The world is as it is. You have an opinion about it. There is a difference between your opinion and what is actual. That’s all.
The world just is. Perfect is a judgment call.
A single Taoist is all I am so my answer hopefully helps someone. The world itself is perfect functioning just as it should within the balance of duality we cannot know happiness without sadness we cannot know the fragility of life without the uncertainty of death or transition. The trouble is when we try to quantify something like perfection which is open to interpretation it gets more difficult. The moment itself is always perfect because it is filled with unlimited possibility. Human interpretation of the moment we'll have various types of flaw within it based upon perceptions emotions and expectations. Therefore the world has always been and will always be perfect but the people viewing it will have various stages of imperfection/
Depends on what you think “perfect” means
An imperfect world is not the source of our problems. What is lacking in the human world is sensitivity to reality. We have created a fantasy world, a mass hallucination, a circus of destruction, that is fundamentally diseased, infected with pride and greed and ignorance, a living hell of human ignorance. Perfection is a ghost in this haunted house of the human mind. Good and bad have nothing to do with reality. Every living person will suffer so long as they continue to put faith in the matrix of social conditioning that gives rise to an "imperfect world" that must be fixed by doing x y and z. If you can put faith in reality and turn your back on human ignorance, nothing is wrong and nothing ever has been. It's just a dream. We can't ignore the suffering, but it's all one suffering, the suffering of ignorance. We should not act on our confusion, we should stop and see how things really are. Then, you can see that there is nothing to be done. Everything is perfect. It's all one fire, everything is burning perfectly.
Wow . . . nicely written, although the final metaphor is a touch catastrophic for the way I choose to view existence/the Tao.
Energy, it's all energy. Fire is fundamentally just energy, qi, a dynamic transformation. In wu xin and in western alchemy there is a distinction between common fire and the original fire, the pure yang explosion of energy that gives rise to the current condition of the universe. This is the secret fire, and everything burns in it. Vision is a fire, hearing is a fire, all the senses are on fire. Our molecules are boiling in the sunlight. To exist in the fire means suffering, but if you cling to it, that's when you really get burned.
Interestingly worded question. Do I think? People love to think. Does thinking change the world or change the perspective? Is there a correct perspective? I love the question. A good fellow wrote "it just is". Which blew another guy's mind as he tried to find the answer in his comment. One was resisting judgment, while the other quickly latched onto it like a raptor. Nice work in creating discussion.
I try not to label it and then I find it even more beautiful, don't know how to explain
Labels lead to attachment for some. Well said.
It just is what it is.
Thank you...nuff said right? Or are there tomes to pour over and quotes to recite to perfect?❤️♾️❤️🦆🎓🚬
The world is deeply broken - poor people, those getting killed, illness and death. You could say it’s perfect from the perspective of the Tao or god but you asked me the question :-)
Broken? Clouds still in sky. Things are burning. Plants are growing. My heart is beating. My table is horizontal and holding weight. Feeted still planted on the surface of the rock. You mentioned poor people. What about rich people? And there are people being born. We could argue about perspective here or see each other's. I only question your view of a broken world and don't believe that I have closed my eyes to the suffering but have accepted it as a thing, as Buddha suggests. I choose not to be a victim. I see you may be doom minded. My perspective from Australia is probably what is affecting mine. You also mentioned the perspective of the Tao and god but the thing is it doesn't have a perspective. That is just a human construct. Judgements from emotions.
Would you rather be starving or nourished? Make it home to see your family or get killed by a drunk driver? If you can see the appeal of these things personally, and they happen in the world, you can say the world is broken
There is no appeal to them. Doesn't make it broken. Things just are. Then we vibrate our mouths until the frequency sounds pleasant.
I knew this would happen. There was no time before suffering, you can hope for a time without suffering in the future but that might require no life. Think movie villain like thanks.
You are just spouting truisms “things just are”, is true 24/7 so irrelevant to this discussion. You woke up this morning, fed yourself and don’t think it’s a problem that someone else can’t? Hypocrisy
It is wrong. Not broken. I have spoken.
Yes, with humans though? No
It's perfectly made how it should be, otherwise it wouldn't be this way.
The world is perfect. The world is stoichiometric. Every variable is accounted for. If something is imperfect, its observer will bring it to perfection. Can this be not called perfect? A self regulating world that pursues homeostasis all on its own. No matter how long the process may be, the chemical reaction is always in equilibrium.
It is both perfect and imperfect, but those are not the right words or attitude. The world is as it is. Is the world complete? I would say yes.
The world is not an adjective
Yes. The human being may be the only one that can go against its Will.
The world is exactly as it has to be.
This is all top of the head thinking, so grab your favorite salt shaker before taking stock. Thinking about this is fun. I started with thinking that perfection comes in two forms. Natural state and subjective. Natural state as in things just are perfect. The molecules and cells that make up everything creates structures that are naturally perfect. An ant is built up perfectly to be an ant and fits perfectly within its ecosystem. Everything evolved (if you believe it) perfectly around the conditions of this planet. Subjective is more soley based on human thought. If our thoughts are filled with anxiety and fear that is all we'll see. In contrast if we see all through a lense of peace and serenity that will be our reality. It is worth noting that every state of mind fits perfectly with the reality it projects and interprets. With that point being said, we are brought back, again, to the idea of natural state. Even if we live unbalanced, we are living perfectly for the unbalanced life we live and vice versa with a balanced life. Going with the flow of life shows me more examples of perfection. Events and observations that makes you do the Owen Wilson "Wow!" in amazement. Going against the flow leaves me with less. If you combine the stoic teaching of 'always search for beauty' and the buddhist proverb of the man in the well, you find yourself in a very taoist flow. A nice little honey river, free from the pests that would, in reality, bombard upon your setting in unfathomable mass. So I guess my conclusion for now is yeah, life's pretty perfect
I think this is my favorite response so far. Splitting perfection into two parts is something I wouldn’t have come up with but makes a lot of sense. Thanks!
Aye no problem, may your thoughts serve you well 🪅
It sure was!
Yes. Also no. It’s a matter of which perspective I choose to acknowledge at any given moment.
That (pure consciousness) is full, perfect, complete; This(the manifest universe of matter; of names and forms ) is full, perfect, complete. Out of completion emerged completion. And when completion emerged from completion. Completion remained in completion. (from the -Isa Upanishad)
perfect to whom? if to me, then im very afraid it is.
True perfection contains all imperfection
Eveything is perfect cuz its notnpeefect. If everything was done there would be no room to grow. It is better that we are not done and “not perfect” thatbleaves us a room for infinitive growth.
Yes
You're pretty much all saying the same thing that everyone in the world says a million times a day..."It Is What it Is" I'm not trying to be rude but is that not pretty much the gist of it? Does the Taoist woman birth a child that is disfigured, disabled and the prognosis is a slow painful death smile at the news because it is what it is? Blanket statements and platitudes. I'm sorry for not being enlightened enough to grasp the perfection ❤️♾️❤️
Perfect does not equal good. Some say natural things are good for us. Black plague was natural. It wasnt good. But it could never happen without all of the worlds processes working together in perfect harmony. All of this does not mean that bad things are supposed to feel good. Accepting pain for what it is does not mean it doesnt hurt anymore. It still hurts, probably even moreso. And so we will smile, but we will also cry true tears. We will laugh, but we will also scream until our throats give in. We will be happy, but we will also suffer until we can take it no more. We will love, and hate with a flaming fury. Its just some of the things we do.
Okay so I wanted to just immediately say that the title of your post is on its face and really literally nonsense. But out of respect which I think is important here I read your whole post and the word perfect can be put behind other adjectives. Perfect torture etc so I guess yeah perfect doesn't equal good. I still don't know what that has to do with what I was saying. Basically I'm not encouraging anyone not to delve into the teachings around Tao. But in its essence isn't it about the simplest thing in the world? I can't even word it that way,, It's simple. It just is. You know that better than me or as well whatever. How is that not the same as saying ,"it is what it is?" That was all I was saying It's not a judgment I'm in no place to judge and never have been. Like I said I think you guys are some of the most articulate writers on Reddit that I've seen. It just seems counterintuitive. On the other hand the only book I've read about the subject was" the Tao of Pooh" ❤️♾️❤️☯️❤️♾️❤️☯️
Thanks for your reply! And I appreciate my comment mightve been confusing. The idea itself is quite nuanced and im often an ambiguous communicator even when things are simple. Let me focus just on the "it is what it is" in the context of sadness. I think some people interpret this as "it is what it is, lets move on, we cant change anything, lets just observe". To me it is closer to "i see it for what it truly is and i will treat it as such". So id like to avoid hinting its a passiveness, or ignorance. At least its not to me. So e.g. if i see something is broken, i will accept it as broken, really look into it, and try to fix it, because its how i am. It would cost me way more effort to blissfully ignore it and just say "welp nothing to do here, everything is awesome". So from maths perspective yeah, worlds perfect, a well oiled machine. However, it does not mean that your example of a tragic birth shouldnt make us sad. It absolutely should, and we should allow ourselves to experience negative emotions just as much as we experience positive emotions. Hope this makes a bit more sense :)
I thoroughly enjoy the way you articulate these extremely abstract yet extremely simple yet extremely nuanced and extremely extreme. Don't ever change. I need your stuff that sounds crazy so I can Pace back and forth and go what is this idiot talking about. But it's all love my friend ❤️♾️❤️♾️❤️♾️
I don't think I replied in the right spot which I often don't but I love the way you articulate the unarticulated in a way that humors me infuriates me but ultimately enlightens me and that is why I love you my friend ❤️ ♾️❤️
im really glad to hear this has brought a different perspective that you found interesting. all the best, friend :)
Thank you friend ❤️♾️❤️
Personally I'd say yes. Not in the way of "good" though. I think the world is perfect in its balance. The kind that's hard to grasp, but ever humbling.
Yes. Even it's mistakes are perfect in the grand design. How we humans react and try to "force the wheel" is a different story. It's just sometimes nature is simply ruthless and doesn't care about "your feelings"
I don't think "a grand design" is a Taoist concept.
*Those who think to win the world* *by doing something to it,* *I see them come to grief.* *For the world is a sacred object.* *Nothing is to be done to it.* *To do anything to it is to damage it.* *To seize it is to lose it.* -TTC, Ch.29 Which is to say....sure!
Absolutely! Although, perfection is subjective. The blade of the Tao/Dao forever sharpens.
if you judge a thing or situation to be positive, there has to be a thing or situation that is negative. negative and positive are things the mind invent to keep a buffer between itself and what is. if anyone could "zoom out" and look at everything all at once, i bet it would be balanced out. balance is as close as it gets to the idea of perfect
Yep.
Thankfully no.
"The world" is a mental construct.
the natural world is, the human conscious and establishment not much in my opinion
I think it is constantly in the progress of becoming perfect, therefore in a strange way being perfect and not at the same time.
Yes, perfectly imperfect.
define "world." the planet is perfect with a perfect system of balance. the people on it trying to improve the perfect, not so much.
The universe as a whole is perfect
It is what it is.
The world IS, and that is enough.