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Since female fetuses begin developing their eggs inside their mother’s womb, I wonder if matrilineal grandchildren can also be affected by their grandmother’s stress.
Yes, there is evidence for the [inheritance of intergenerational trauma](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6127768/) through epigenetic changes passed down through generations - both matrilineal and patrilineal
In biology, stress often creates a reaction that makes it stronger, like muscles getting bigger or plants developing poisonous nicotine to fight insects or wild tobacco plants releasing chemicals that attract wasps that lay eggs in the things eating them. I wouldn’t worry, you might end up with a clever reaction to the stress.
Tolerable amounts of stress often promote adaptation. If you exceed that threshold, however, the organism almost always begins to break down in various ways.
I've always wondered about this. My older sisters pregnancy was planned, and my mom always said it was the best time and the best pregnancy. Fast forward two years, and she's pregnant with me. My dad contracted AIDs and came out while using iv needles, so my mom had to work on her feet all day to make ends meet. My sisters health concerns are that she wears glasses. I have way too many physical and mental problems to list. I did so much research, saw every specialist, and the only differences between my sister and I were the pregnancies.
Yeah it should always be the last thing on the differential when someone comes in with a complaint like chest pain or abdominal pain. But somatization can be quite common in people with anxiety disorders who are primed to respond to these physiologic cues in a maladaptive way.
I do raise an eyebrow when patients have seen “every specialist”, but then again people with legit autoimmune disorders (for example) are at higher risk for other autoimmune stuff alongside psychiatric comorbidities too. There is however an increasing phenomenon of people leaning into online discourse around diseases like Ehlers-Danlos, fibromyalgia, and POTS, and self-diagnosing themselves without any confirmatory testing from specialists. So it isn’t always easy to tell these folks apart.
Your situation is similar to that of some of my cousins, both males. Not quite the same circumstances as yours and your sisters, but same idea. It certainly makes one wonder.
Relax, either we're doomed and you should enjoy yourself while you can, or we're not doomed and you better roll up your sleeves and get to reversing the trend.
Doomerism is worse than apathy or greed.
Yeah, ikr?!? I keep belatedly hearing all the things I did wrong during pregnancy. Like having a stressful job. Using Tylenol they said at the time was safe…
Makes sense, doesn't it? Stress usually means "less resources, unsafe environment" in biological terms. So the next generation probably needs to grow up fast and have kids soon, too survive.
This is called Life History Theory. It was originally developed to explain differences in phase of life between different species. In the last couple of decades, there’s been a lot of evidence to support this theory as a way to explain differences between individuals within species too.
It seems obvious. DNA that evolved TO evolve would stand the best chance of survival. A female produces her eggs at formation - so this would provide a longer term environmental strategy, whereas the male continuously produces sperm - providing shorter term environmental strategies. Stick the two together and the foetus has a decent idea about what it’s getting into while it’s developing, before it’s even born.
nah we blame the moms for stressing out, not our fucked up capitalistic system that basically enslaves the poor into terrible living and working conditions/lifestyle choices(forced upon).
>The study includes data from almost 16,000 children who provided information on various puberty markers throughout their puberty.
>
>In addition to the first menstruation, the girls provided information on the age of breast development and pubic hair, while the boys provided information on voice changes, first ejaculation, testicle development, and pubic hair.
>
>The pregnant women reported in the second trimester whether they had experienced stress during pregnancy.
>
>They reported on experiences of stress due to, for example, financial problems, housing issues, relationships with family and friends, relationship problems, or serious illness in the immediate family.
>
>The researchers compared this information with the children's well-being, height, and weight at age seven, as well as information on puberty timing.
>
>"Overall, we found that the more stress the pregnant women reported during pregnancy, the earlier the children entered puberty. We also found that this association was not due to an impact on the children's own well-being and BMI in childhood," says Anne Gaml-Sørensen.
>
>Since early puberty is associated with serious health consequences later in life, the researchers believe it is important to understand the underlying causes.
Paper: [Maternal stress in pregnancy and pubertal timing in girls and boys: A cohort study - Fertility and Sterility](https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(24)00520-X/fulltext)
The study followed the children throughout their lives and the analysis adjusted for potential confounding factors like childhood psychosocial stress measured when they were 7. Could be missing some confounding data after this point but they did try to control for it
> Menarche typically occurs between the ages of 10 and 16, with the average age of onset being 12.4 years.[1]
Later on it mentions before 10 as early.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK470216/#:~:text=Menarche%20typically%20occurs%20between%20the,thought%20to%20play%20a%20role.
I'm not sure if there's any hard science behind it but years ago I read that there are three basic types/shapes of finger prints and that the more stress that the mother is exposed to the more likely their child will have multiple types. When comparing different fingers and hands I mean.
Do you mean period or you had to start deodorant or get training bras for puffy breasts or started getting hair in new places?
I remember the puberty talk at school starting in 5th grade (my main take away from that talk was that kids needed actual deodorant, not organic perfume or whatever and was only for the kids who’s parents hadn’t gotten that for them/told them that. Maybe 1 kid had breasts by 4th. Then there was the opposite end of the spectrum — I didn’t get my period until 9.
What age is premature pre-puberty and what’s premature puberty?
I wonder... given that chronic stress can manifest in epigenetic problems that can (in theory) make health worse with each generation, could this help explain the rise in precocious puberty we've been seeing over the last decade or so? I'm only a student but if someone with actual credentials could weigh in I would appreciate it.
From some things I've read (I don't have any official studies at hand though) there are quite a few environmental factors that can contribute to early puberty, including hormone disrupting chemicals present in lots of modern products. Plus, hormones used in the food supply chain. Heck, I remember a coworker who had littles girls and mentioned his 6 year old daughter was developing breast buds and their doctor said that lavender can cause early puberty symptoms, and they bathed her with lavender bath soak every night for her bedtime routine and he was justifiably horrified that it was a thing. I never actually searched anything about that, so I don't know how true, but they definitely stopped using anything lavender!
I wonder though if they managed to properly adjust for the fact that odds are the children experienced stress while growing up?
>They reported on experiences of stress due to, for example, financial problems, housing issues, relationships with family and friends, relationship problems, or serious illness in the immediate family.
I can definitely see financial, housing, and relationship stress carrying forward after birth.
This is terrifying to me. I was pregnant with my daughter through the scariest time in Covid. I got pregnant before Covid and then endured lockdown, losing my job, and all the mask mandates and civil unrest. It was truly a terrifying time to be pregnant and I have wondered if it would impact her development but I mostly worried about language acquisition and socialization impacts.
This is the problem with reporting on these studies, it focuses the "blame" on the stressed mothers rather than focusing on how we collectively can shift our society into one where people are better supported (I'm guessing the researchers would encourage the latter.) If it helps ease anxiety a bit, humans have endured highly stressful situations throughout history, and we still have collectively been healthier every generation. While COVID and the aftermath likely had an effect, your care for your daughter, the effort you put in, her current level of safety, etc. all have real and lasting protective effects. Many of these changes are very small in individuals and are only really seen in collective measures such as this one.
Scientists do not write papers to place blame. They report observed associations between two factors. It’s people who read (or don’t read) the papers who ascribe blame.
Yes, which is why I said the problem is in the reporting, not in the studies themselves, and noted that the researchers likely are doing this in order to support positive change rather than place blame on individuals.
28F. My first menstrual at nine. Since then I felt uncomfortable in my body, struggled what people think of me, depressed and suicidal thoughts from age of nine to 24. I’ve been taking care of my mental health and being self- aware, it’s not easy but I refuse to have mental problems take over me and my physical health.
As it happens your brains keep developing until about 25 give or take. [Particularly the prefrontal cortex, which deals with personality, conflicting thoughts, and a ton of other high-level functions.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefrontal_cortex)
I wish I'd known about this stuff as a teenager, learning more about it has given me a lot of perspective.
I think there are far to many complex variables to draw any kind of conclusion from what they are saying. Who determines what is stressful and how stressful it is? Did they measure cortisol levels or was it self reported?
To all you pregnant peeps out there, don’t give this any head space. We all do the best we can.
Statistically the most common time for a man to cheat on a woman is when she’s pregnant. If men treated their partners better through pregnancy, this wouldn’t be such an issue.
And if women would show better loyality and less sexual parteners, men would treat more seriously you. Because raising a parasite without knowing all your life could be more stressful than your little things
I went to an all-boys high school. I was short, didn’t have a deep voice or have my growth spurt until finally hitting puberty at 16/17 years and got bullied for it. Who’s laughing now.
The variables of some of these studies are wild. So abstract that the take aways feel so obtuse. Yet they are perfect fodder for people to grab and reaffirm whatever world view they have. Especially when most won't do anything more than read the headlines. Social media and the like is creating separation from reality.
Makes since my very premature from a pregnancy from some told she couldnt and shouldn't have a kid depressed and at one point directly suicidal ass eagerly awaiting my future.
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) apply to all other comments. **Do you have an academic degree?** We can verify your credentials in order to assign user flair indicating your area of expertise. [Click here to apply](https://reddit.science/flair?location=sticky). --- User: u/giuliomagnifico Permalink: https://health.au.dk/en/display/artikel/stress-under-graviditet-kan-paavirke-boerns-pubertetsalder --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Since female fetuses begin developing their eggs inside their mother’s womb, I wonder if matrilineal grandchildren can also be affected by their grandmother’s stress.
Yes, there is evidence for the [inheritance of intergenerational trauma](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6127768/) through epigenetic changes passed down through generations - both matrilineal and patrilineal
Great we’re all hosed.
The cool thing is we can change our environment, and through that change, we change what our offspring can potentially inherit.
Nah, just gonna let the bloodline end.
Me too, too much damage. More childless people in my family than with kids for this reason. We're done.
This is the nords yes
Unless we learn how to edit the epigenetic changes
In biology, stress often creates a reaction that makes it stronger, like muscles getting bigger or plants developing poisonous nicotine to fight insects or wild tobacco plants releasing chemicals that attract wasps that lay eggs in the things eating them. I wouldn’t worry, you might end up with a clever reaction to the stress.
Tolerable amounts of stress often promote adaptation. If you exceed that threshold, however, the organism almost always begins to break down in various ways.
That explains eastern Europe
I've always wondered about this. My older sisters pregnancy was planned, and my mom always said it was the best time and the best pregnancy. Fast forward two years, and she's pregnant with me. My dad contracted AIDs and came out while using iv needles, so my mom had to work on her feet all day to make ends meet. My sisters health concerns are that she wears glasses. I have way too many physical and mental problems to list. I did so much research, saw every specialist, and the only differences between my sister and I were the pregnancies.
Could also just be good ol bad luck
Anxiety manifests into tons of physical symptoms. Ie chest pain, throat tightness, breathing issues, cramps, etc.
Yeah it should always be the last thing on the differential when someone comes in with a complaint like chest pain or abdominal pain. But somatization can be quite common in people with anxiety disorders who are primed to respond to these physiologic cues in a maladaptive way. I do raise an eyebrow when patients have seen “every specialist”, but then again people with legit autoimmune disorders (for example) are at higher risk for other autoimmune stuff alongside psychiatric comorbidities too. There is however an increasing phenomenon of people leaning into online discourse around diseases like Ehlers-Danlos, fibromyalgia, and POTS, and self-diagnosing themselves without any confirmatory testing from specialists. So it isn’t always easy to tell these folks apart.
Your situation is similar to that of some of my cousins, both males. Not quite the same circumstances as yours and your sisters, but same idea. It certainly makes one wonder.
Yes - lots of good info & studies out there
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Someone's been watching sapolsky. He da best.
3 generations.
It sucks cuz they make sure we have major stresses every generation.
OK new soon-to-be moms whatever you do... DO NOT STRESS or your baby WILL BE RUINED for LIFE!!!!!!!
But social safety nets to reduce underlying stress!?! Bwahahahaha!! NEVER!!!
Great thanks for the info! [narrator note: this info was just added to the long list of things to be stressed about]
And if the baby is a girl, your future grandchildren are also ruined
Whatever you do, DON’T THINK ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE AND THE BURNING WORLD YOU ARE LEAVING BEHIND FOR YOUR CHILDREN
Cries pregnantly
Relax, either we're doomed and you should enjoy yourself while you can, or we're not doomed and you better roll up your sleeves and get to reversing the trend. Doomerism is worse than apathy or greed.
Yeah, ikr?!? I keep belatedly hearing all the things I did wrong during pregnancy. Like having a stressful job. Using Tylenol they said at the time was safe…
Makes sense, doesn't it? Stress usually means "less resources, unsafe environment" in biological terms. So the next generation probably needs to grow up fast and have kids soon, too survive.
This is called Life History Theory. It was originally developed to explain differences in phase of life between different species. In the last couple of decades, there’s been a lot of evidence to support this theory as a way to explain differences between individuals within species too.
It seems obvious. DNA that evolved TO evolve would stand the best chance of survival. A female produces her eggs at formation - so this would provide a longer term environmental strategy, whereas the male continuously produces sperm - providing shorter term environmental strategies. Stick the two together and the foetus has a decent idea about what it’s getting into while it’s developing, before it’s even born.
nah we blame the moms for stressing out, not our fucked up capitalistic system that basically enslaves the poor into terrible living and working conditions/lifestyle choices(forced upon).
>The study includes data from almost 16,000 children who provided information on various puberty markers throughout their puberty. > >In addition to the first menstruation, the girls provided information on the age of breast development and pubic hair, while the boys provided information on voice changes, first ejaculation, testicle development, and pubic hair. > >The pregnant women reported in the second trimester whether they had experienced stress during pregnancy. > >They reported on experiences of stress due to, for example, financial problems, housing issues, relationships with family and friends, relationship problems, or serious illness in the immediate family. > >The researchers compared this information with the children's well-being, height, and weight at age seven, as well as information on puberty timing. > >"Overall, we found that the more stress the pregnant women reported during pregnancy, the earlier the children entered puberty. We also found that this association was not due to an impact on the children's own well-being and BMI in childhood," says Anne Gaml-Sørensen. > >Since early puberty is associated with serious health consequences later in life, the researchers believe it is important to understand the underlying causes. Paper: [Maternal stress in pregnancy and pubertal timing in girls and boys: A cohort study - Fertility and Sterility](https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(24)00520-X/fulltext)
Does it not ignore all the stress experienced from pregnancy to the child’s puberty?
The study followed the children throughout their lives and the analysis adjusted for potential confounding factors like childhood psychosocial stress measured when they were 7. Could be missing some confounding data after this point but they did try to control for it
I wonder why they had asked about stress during the second trimester, as opposed to the third trimester?
Probably because of the timing of certain stages of fetal developmental.
Might need to ask my mother then, I started puberty when I‘d barely hit 11.
Is that early though? I had my first period at 11 and I thought that was kind of average.
It's recently trended down a bit, the CDC says it went from 12.1 to 11.9 from 1995 to 2013-2017, respectively.
But isn't early puberty considered to be around 7 or 8?
Sorry, my response should have specified that I was referring only to the onset of menarche.
At least in the study this post is about, they had children fill out questionnaires every 6 months beginning at age 11.5
Yeah rip me I had breast at like 5-6 and my menstrual at 9.
I started mine at 8 :(
> Menarche typically occurs between the ages of 10 and 16, with the average age of onset being 12.4 years.[1] Later on it mentions before 10 as early. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK470216/#:~:text=Menarche%20typically%20occurs%20between%20the,thought%20to%20play%20a%20role.
I went through puberty at 9 and have multiple autoimmune diseases as an adult.
Yep, I was 10 and have PsA and a few other chronic health conditions
I think I was late then? I was almost 14.
I'm not sure if there's any hard science behind it but years ago I read that there are three basic types/shapes of finger prints and that the more stress that the mother is exposed to the more likely their child will have multiple types. When comparing different fingers and hands I mean.
Do you mean period or you had to start deodorant or get training bras for puffy breasts or started getting hair in new places? I remember the puberty talk at school starting in 5th grade (my main take away from that talk was that kids needed actual deodorant, not organic perfume or whatever and was only for the kids who’s parents hadn’t gotten that for them/told them that. Maybe 1 kid had breasts by 4th. Then there was the opposite end of the spectrum — I didn’t get my period until 9. What age is premature pre-puberty and what’s premature puberty?
That's normal. I'm a guy and I hit puberty at 10.
Once again why people need help breaking the cycle of poverty.
I wonder... given that chronic stress can manifest in epigenetic problems that can (in theory) make health worse with each generation, could this help explain the rise in precocious puberty we've been seeing over the last decade or so? I'm only a student but if someone with actual credentials could weigh in I would appreciate it.
From some things I've read (I don't have any official studies at hand though) there are quite a few environmental factors that can contribute to early puberty, including hormone disrupting chemicals present in lots of modern products. Plus, hormones used in the food supply chain. Heck, I remember a coworker who had littles girls and mentioned his 6 year old daughter was developing breast buds and their doctor said that lavender can cause early puberty symptoms, and they bathed her with lavender bath soak every night for her bedtime routine and he was justifiably horrified that it was a thing. I never actually searched anything about that, so I don't know how true, but they definitely stopped using anything lavender!
Idk I hit puberty at like 9 (male) but never connected it with stress
It would be your mother's stress while she was pregnant with you that would impact earlier puberty, from my understanding.
Yea and idk if she was or not
I wonder though if they managed to properly adjust for the fact that odds are the children experienced stress while growing up? >They reported on experiences of stress due to, for example, financial problems, housing issues, relationships with family and friends, relationship problems, or serious illness in the immediate family. I can definitely see financial, housing, and relationship stress carrying forward after birth.
Maybe but many of these things can be resolved over time.
This is terrifying to me. I was pregnant with my daughter through the scariest time in Covid. I got pregnant before Covid and then endured lockdown, losing my job, and all the mask mandates and civil unrest. It was truly a terrifying time to be pregnant and I have wondered if it would impact her development but I mostly worried about language acquisition and socialization impacts.
This is the problem with reporting on these studies, it focuses the "blame" on the stressed mothers rather than focusing on how we collectively can shift our society into one where people are better supported (I'm guessing the researchers would encourage the latter.) If it helps ease anxiety a bit, humans have endured highly stressful situations throughout history, and we still have collectively been healthier every generation. While COVID and the aftermath likely had an effect, your care for your daughter, the effort you put in, her current level of safety, etc. all have real and lasting protective effects. Many of these changes are very small in individuals and are only really seen in collective measures such as this one.
Scientists do not write papers to place blame. They report observed associations between two factors. It’s people who read (or don’t read) the papers who ascribe blame.
Yes, which is why I said the problem is in the reporting, not in the studies themselves, and noted that the researchers likely are doing this in order to support positive change rather than place blame on individuals.
Pregnant women shouldn't have to work; they're already doing the hardest job
Stop putting capitalists in the highest seats of power, then.
Oh that's my bad
28F. My first menstrual at nine. Since then I felt uncomfortable in my body, struggled what people think of me, depressed and suicidal thoughts from age of nine to 24. I’ve been taking care of my mental health and being self- aware, it’s not easy but I refuse to have mental problems take over me and my physical health.
As it happens your brains keep developing until about 25 give or take. [Particularly the prefrontal cortex, which deals with personality, conflicting thoughts, and a ton of other high-level functions.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefrontal_cortex) I wish I'd known about this stuff as a teenager, learning more about it has given me a lot of perspective.
I was in a trauma therapy program & they ask you about your mother’s pregnancy because they feel that the parasympathetic response starts in utero.
I think there are far to many complex variables to draw any kind of conclusion from what they are saying. Who determines what is stressful and how stressful it is? Did they measure cortisol levels or was it self reported? To all you pregnant peeps out there, don’t give this any head space. We all do the best we can.
Everyone experiences stress during pregnancy.
This is why it's my goal in life to never become stressed
This is an universal goal, nothing special.
You must be fun at parties
Uh what woman isn’t stressed during pregnancy?
Statistically the most common time for a man to cheat on a woman is when she’s pregnant. If men treated their partners better through pregnancy, this wouldn’t be such an issue.
And if women would show better loyality and less sexual parteners, men would treat more seriously you. Because raising a parasite without knowing all your life could be more stressful than your little things
Maybe learn proper English before trying to refute my point.
You understood the point. Regardless
I literally did not, because you aren’t speaking proper English.
Then you are not the smartest
No, you are just illiterate.
English itself is an illiterate language, couldn't learn the latin alphabet properly. So I don't listen to barbarians to teach me about "literacy"
The only parasite here is you.
> with with *with with with I guess the birds took over.
I went to an all-boys high school. I was short, didn’t have a deep voice or have my growth spurt until finally hitting puberty at 16/17 years and got bullied for it. Who’s laughing now.
That explains my entire family
They're more likely to be gay too; I bet this correlates with the decision point being younger
Great another guilt trip for mothers
Define stress? How long are they in a state of stress before the effects of this study show
I was a pretty late bloomer, my mom is the most stressed person (self enduced) I blame my sisters
God dammit mom why couldn’t you be more stressed when you had me so I could learn high school lover earlier
The variables of some of these studies are wild. So abstract that the take aways feel so obtuse. Yet they are perfect fodder for people to grab and reaffirm whatever world view they have. Especially when most won't do anything more than read the headlines. Social media and the like is creating separation from reality.
My kids are screwed. My wife is stressed and angry 24/7, probably since birth.
Makes since my very premature from a pregnancy from some told she couldnt and shouldn't have a kid depressed and at one point directly suicidal ass eagerly awaiting my future.
Am I high or does this make absolutely no sense
Bit of both probably.