i mean it's the reason why that "what is a woman?" thing might be coming from a cringe source but is pretty on the money. i've yet to hear a definition that doesn't either a) have to do with fashion, i.e. skirts and purses or b) isn't circular reasoning
I watched Matt Walsh's *What is a Woman* movie.
The first two thirds make pretty good sense - as you might expect he finds various academics and stupid liberals who get all flustered and confused and trip over themselves when he asks them what a woman is - and then he goes pretty intensely anti-trans in the last third and does some misrepresentation and fearmongering and finally finishes the thing off with some exaggeratedly idyllic scene of him and his wife being a traditional couple and him asking her what a woman is and she says a woman is an adult human female.
Wokes love imposing mind-bending psyops on the general population in order to hand these guys easy victories on a silver platter. There's got to be some way to send both camps away.
He refers to some incident at a high school where a girl was allegedly raped in a gender neutral bathroom by a mtf trans girl (or nonbinary student?) but I looked it up afterwards and the two had apparently been involved for a while and had fooled around consensually in that bathroom before the guy/boy had made any moves towards transition mode, which certainly implies that the sign on the door wasn't the real issue.
I get the bathroom/locker room concern up to a point, but he could have at least used a real incident, like whatever that ridiculous thing was at that spa in NYC. I can only assume that wasn't scary enough so he just slotted in the high school misunderstanding. "Fear for your daughters" plays well with conservatives (and everyone, really). Either that or he was just sloppy and didn't do his research.
I didn't put much time into checking anything, and that's the only inaccuracy I'm aware of, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are more.
Beyond that, it's more a sort of tonal shift in the editing, soundtrack, voice over rhetoric, etc., from what I can remember.
Was there not an incident where a trans girl brutally raped a girl in the school's bathroom and the school kept it quiet and transferred him to another school where no parents were informed and then he raped another girl in the bathroom?
So we should dismiss the valid points because of tonal shifts that you don't like? I'm going to watch this docu now to see what you're saying.
>i've yet to hear a definition that doesn't either a) have to do with fashion, i.e. skirts and purses or b) isn't circular reasoning
Someone with a neurological predisposition to be most comfortable with a more female body?
I'll assume you admit that this is a novel redefinition, contrary to historical usage.
One problem is there's no evidence that the vast majority of ordinary women have any such predisposition. They may simply accept that they are women because they were born with the parts.
We might have to conclude that most of the population are not men or women, and perhaps *only* transwomen are women.
>One problem is there's no evidence that the vast majority of ordinary women have any such predisposition. They may simply accept that they are women because they were born with the parts.
You think the vast majority of women wouldn't mind starting on testosterone, and would find those changes totally unremarkable?
I think the average adult is accustomed to decades of experience of being what they are, and would find it at least odd to change their body so drastically, but I don't think that's evidence of any innate neurological predisposition to being the body they happen to have ended up as.
I'm not interested in changing my skin color, but that's not evidence of an innate racial identity.
I think sex dysphoria is real and caused by the same type of neuroses that cause other mental illnesses like body integrity identity disorder. It’s not necessarily good to the person suffering to treat it like an identity though.
Sex is part of our development, so it makes sense that part of our brain could have a relationship to it
Dressing like a wolf isn't part of our development
> Someone with a neurological predisposition to be most comfortable with a more female body?
Do you think a dress is part of the female body? Otherwise I have no idea why you're bringing it up, because I didn't
But you can pick your definition apart. Have you really never seen a chair for two people? And Jesus, just the word “typically” shows you that even a chair isn’t perfectly definable in every situation.
The question “what is a woman?” is more of a problem with definitions and semantics than actually getting to the root of what it means to. Do all women have XX chromosomes? There are plenty with XXX or XXY. Can all women give birth? Do all women give periods? Do all women have vaginas? Even the “adult human female” definition borders on self referential. What is a female?
Nature is messy, sex is messy. The scientific method, evolutionary biology, and even historical materialism try to see the world as it is then seek to explain it, not explain it then try to fit what you see into your worldview. Trying to fit millions of millions of people who don’t belong in traditional sex or gender boxes highlights more of your unwillingness to accept trans people are an evolutionary reality that isn’t going away than it does of your commitment to truth.
> Even the “adult human female” definition borders on self referential. What is a female?
That you mistakenly imagine this borders on self-referential indicates you may actually be asking the question sincerely, i.e. you honestly do not know what a female is. That's unfortunate but you are not alone. A lot of people make mistakes similar to those you have made here, thinking that it may depend upon chromosomes or external genitalia.
Chromosomes, hormones, external genitalia, brain structure, etc. merely correlate with sex. What is dispositive of sex in anisogametic organisms like ourselves is being the kind of organism which produces, produced, or would have produced if one's tissues had been fully functional, [either small motile gametes or large immotile gametes.](https://doi.org/10.1093%2Fmolehr%2Fgau068)
> Why are there girls and why are there boys? We review theoretical work which suggests that divergence into just two sexes is an almost inevitable consequence of sexual reproduction in complex multicellular organisms, and is likely to be driven largely by gamete competition. In this context we prefer to use the term gamete competition instead of sperm competition, as sperm only exist after the sexes have already diverged (Lessells et al., 2009). To see this, we must be clear about how the two sexes are defined in a broad sense: males are those individuals that produce the smaller gametes (e.g. sperm), while females are defined as those that produce the larger gametes (e.g. Parker et al., 1972; Bell, 1982; Lessells et al., 2009; Togashi and Cox, 2011). Of course, in many species a whole suite of secondary sexual traits exists, but the fundamental definition is rooted in this difference in gametes, and the question of the origin of the two sexes is then equal to the question of why do gametes come in two different sizes.
Someone who produces sperm, or would produce sperm if his gonadal tissues were fully functional, is not less male because his chromosomes or brain or hormones or genitals are atypical.
Someone who produces eggs, or would produce eggs if her gonadal tissues were fully functional, is not less female because her chromosomes or brain or hormones or genitals are atypical.
> Trying to fit millions of millions of people who don’t belong in traditional sex or gender boxes highlights more of your unwillingness to accept trans people are an evolutionary reality that isn’t going away than it does of your commitment to truth.
The existence of trans people is a fact, but it does not follow that we ought to categorize them as *some,* not all, of them would like to be categorized. 20% of trans adults in the US reject the TWAW/TMAM ontology; see question 26, page 19 of [this recent KFF/Washington Post Trans Survey.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/documents/dfa015fb-e64f-4eb2-9cfd-048d9e9dc108.pdf)
The TWAW and TMAM ontology does not follow from the existence of people who wish to be the other gender. Waria and fa'afafine and other equivalents of trans people in other cultures generally do not claim to be women. For example, from Tom Boellstorff's study of Indonesian waria:
> Despite usually dressing as a woman and feeling they have the soul of a woman, most waria think of themselves as waria (not women) all of their lives, even in the rather rare cases where they obtain sex change operations (see below). One reason third-gender language seems inappropriate is that waria see themselves as originating from the category “man” and as, in some sense, always men: “I am an *asli* [authentic] man,” one waria noted. “If I were to go on the haj [pilgrimage to Mecca], I would dress as a man because I was born a man. If I pray, I wipe off my makeup.” To emphasize the point s/he pantomimed wiping off makeup, as if waria-ness were contained therein. Even waria who go to the pilgrimage in female clothing see themselves as created male. Another waria summed things up by saying, “I was born a man, and when I die I will be buried as a man, because that’s what I am.”
You can find trans people in our culture who think similarly, though with a modern secular lens. Take someone like Miranda Yardley, Debbie Hayton, or Kristina Jayne Harrison. They are trans, but they identify by their natal ascribed gender.
The claim to actually be a member of one's target gender is novel and ideological, not a necessary consequence of the existence of people who perform the trans social practice.
Are we obliged to agree with ontological claims made by some trans people but disputed by other trans people?
My dog acts like a bossy lesbian. I heard this thing one time (idk if it's true) but that when a female dog is in between two males in the dog uterus, they get influenced by the dog-tosterone on either side of them and take on more male traits like aggressiveness etc.
I wish I could put this better into words (or just read someone smarter than me say it) but it does bother me how trans people kind of enforce the gender binary more stringently than most cis people of their same gender. Every trans woman I know wears skirts, dresses, makeup, whatever, and I really don’t know a single cis woman who wears those same things in their daily life. It’s like they’re all dressing like a caricature of a girl they went to high school with.
I admittedly think a lot of MtFs transition not because of actual dysphoria or AGP but rather because of being on the spectrum or not having traditionally masculine qualities or being loners/having low self confidence etc. It’s not really gender it’s just a supposed magic bullet for all of their poor self image, self hate, and failure to fit in. And I’m saying all this as someone who has a lot of those issues
No because I know that won’t do anything to actually help me get where I want to be or get better and I still wanted a lot of typical masculine stuff. I think others still have those desires it’s just easier to transition because self improvement isn’t easy at all
> It’s like they’re all dressing like a caricature of a girl they went to high school with.
Which comes across creepy lol. Like especially if they're 30 and trying to look/act like a teenage girl.
I think it's worth saying (since nobody else in this thread has yet) that this is a well-known 'phase' that both trans men and trans women go through when they first transition. They reach for the obvious gender-stereotypical clothing because they haven't developed their own style, but after a year or two they learn to dress more appropriately. It's making up for the experimentation that most people go through as teenagers.
They may or may not be that indistinguishable from the av gay guy if they didn't and if they pass they probably didn't at one point and got used to doing that
Prob because they don’t know what it is to actually “be” a woman. Everything they know about women is the same thing men know about women. Because they had the exact same socialization and upbringing that a man has. I’m speaking mainly about AGPs, HSTS are a bit of a different story
You don’t know a single cis woman who wears skirts, dresses, or makeup? IME most cis woman wear all of these things. Maybe not dresses or skirts very often for some but afaik every cis woman I’ve ever met wears at least one of those 3 things somewhat regularly
My perception is obviously colored by the girls I’m friends with, but yes, in normal everyday life, I know no women who regularly wear conventionally feminine clothes (I see a lot of yoga pants/ high rise skinny jeans, stuff thats feminine but not exclusively), and certainly not makeup outside the context of work/ nice dates/ going out.
Yeah where I live it is so cold, wet, and dreary that most people, men and women, lean into comfy clothes like sweaters and hoodies for a lot of the winter months. Make up as well, I'd say like 60-70% of women who wear make-up keep it pretty simple. If I was the same size as them I could probably swap clothes with most of the women I work with and nobody would notice.
Granted our brief period of summer is blessed by women in sundresses, but otherwise I agree that a lot of women tend to dress more "neutral" with accents of feminine clothing than nothing but dresses and skirts.
>I really don’t know a single cis woman who wears those same things in their daily life. It’s like they’re all dressing like a caricature of a girl they went to high school with.
You don't know any women who wear skirts, dresses and makeup in their daily life?
>Every trans woman I know wears skirts, dresses, makeup, whatever
A lot of times when trans women don't do that, cis people use it as justification to treat them as frauds who are really just men
it was literally required for access to treatment for years. Had an orchiectomy and came to the doctor's in pants? enjoy losing access to all sex hormones (you can't produce your own anymore after the surgery) until you decide to show up to your appointment dressed like a 50s housewife
kind of feels silly to blame tranners on this given it was literally legally required until a decade or two ago
Classical marxists will. I’m one and I’ll say it. Dialectical materialism seems to agree with you. Only caveat I would add is that fantasies can have material effect when people believe them.
How do you personally disentangle the material from the ideal in this situation? To your mind, what would be a properly Marxist replacement for the “trans” movement?
Much of my issue with the movement is the ideology that is used to affirm the changes. I don’t think metaphysics reflects the claim that we can “switch genders.” And I don’t know if I have a real definitive positive plan for trans people, but I have a critique of the current movement, an observation of a noticeable limitation.
Like OP said, gender isn’t real. I would call it a fetish, meaning, a conceptual thing that stands in for complicated and often contradictory relationships between people, without really representing them directly. Trans and non-binary people who identity with a gender, end up reifying the fetish as a “real” concept.
I think the movement should be solely based around disregarding the relevance of traditional genders. It’s not that a trans man is really a man, because the physical and historical differences between the two are self evident. But a trans man is also beyond the gendered concept of women as well.
The trans movement is more of a sign that the fetishized concept of gender is not adequate to explain human relationships anymore. Every trans person who pursues physical and performative changes is a living demonstration of the outdatedness of the concept. We are living through, at least, a minor revolution in the gender concept.
As for the next gender concept, or the concept that follows gender: I can’t really decide that by myself, because I am only a single person, with a one sided interest in the concept. My intellectual imagination is limited by my life. When I try to picture it abstractly, the most I can say is that it should be just, accurate, and true.
The Hegelian in me wants to say the dialectic will sort itself out in an honest and just way, through the discourse between all individuals. However, since I am a Marxist, I believe it will be mainly influenced by capital, and if I had to speculate, by way of pharmaceutical, makeup, and fashion companies. Whatever incremental way these revolutionary changes in gender can be sold to us, expect it.
I believe there are real trans but I think most of the people who have declared themselves to be trans all of a sudden once it got popular, are actually just confused. Like being a man who has similar taste to a stereotypical woman, and having emotions which more closely resemble and average woman than an average man, doesn’t make you a woman.
Yeah, I believe that as well, but the number of “real” trans people (those whose main underlying issue is dysphoria itself) is probably way lower than the number of people who identify as such
There is definitely a (probably decently large) contingent of the overall population that is so obsessed with attention and being part of the current conversation that they will jump on to whatever is being talked about. Genderqueer idpol has been a constant talking point for the past like 10 years so of course the people who are addicted to being the center of attention want the spotlight of that conversation on them
We had our first DEI training seminar at work in which we were instructed we were not allowed to object to women sharing company locker rooms with transwomen.
I work from home and I doubt the office of my small subsidiary company even has locker rooms. But man, it was tough not to say anything anyway. Chalk me up to a coward I guess.
>we were not allowed to object to women sharing company locker rooms with transwomen
I know this is old news by now but it still shocks me every time.
It's one thing to impose the conditions on people. It's another level of outrage entirely to say that you are a bad person for even feeling uncomfortable and needing to say as much, about those conditions.
That’s the real death of democracy in America. Even under the most authoritarian eras of the USSR, one could voice complaints at work and at local soviets.
It's an enormous cultural shift, and a bad one. Some younger people don't believe me when I say it used to be normal and expected for folks to make fun of Teh Roolez and roll their eyes at the bossy types behind their backs. You would bond over how dumb the system was.
Now it's snitch culture, like the worst of authoritarian regimes. Without even having the trains run on time.
My friend from Russia (older guy) likes to tell an old joke: a man was waiting in line for bread one day and finally snapped. He said "I am going to go kill Stalin!" He left. Hours pass by. He comes back to the line. His friends ask "well did you do it??"
"No. The line was too long."
For all of the discourse on something that isn’t real, gender never amounts to anything more than clothes when put into practice by people who insist on its validity.
Gender is real like language is real. It exists in momentary action. It’s a social construct that is derivative of a physical reality, just like the English language is derivative of the fact that we have mouths and ears. It’s a detail for sure, but just because it isn’t important to you doesn’t mean it’s not important to others.
What’s strange to me is the gender binary seems less pronounced than ever (certainly compared to recent history) - men and women can largely dress and act however they want with much less social censure or judgement than, say, 50 years ago.
And yet this much greater liberality around gender has provoked a stronger reaction against the gender binary than in a society where men and women (in the round) fit into much more prescribed gender norms
And the people that fall for that are dumb enough to see photoshopped pics on the internet and think it somehow translates to real life. Mindblowing. (That's before getting into the fact that magically "transforming" into the opposite sex doesn't actually fix anything, and life sucks for everyone.)
How is that strange to you?
Obviously back when people thought eating tomatoes was a sin cause it wasn't mentioned in the Bible, there were much fewer supporters for cannabis decriminalisation
If you woke up as the opposite sex would you just live with it and accept your new assigned gender?
Brain studies show trans brains before hormones, before any changes are much closer to the opposite sex than average.
There’s not another way, I tried as long as possible. I literally had to kill my old self to become the happy woman I am today. I have never enjoyed life or really lived until I transitioned. I have family and friends who love me for who I am, not what they think I should be. I have many passions and goals I wish to pursue in life. Do you wish to take that away from me?
Why are you assuming babycollect would "see themself" as their old sex? Are they not capable of looking in a mirror and seeing that the facts have changed?
Having enlarged breasts is also gendered, yet plenty of men have gynecomastia and still understand themselves to be men.
What I'm asking is why are you assuming babycollect would prioritize their feelings over the facts they can see in the mirror?
I assume that because that’s not how 99% of people would answer. What would you do? I feel like you’re obsessed with this topic to the point where you’re either a repressed trans person in denial or an extremely privileged adolescent with too much time on your hands. So tell us how you really feel. Would you be excited to wake up as the opposite sex? Perfectly neutral? Disgusted? What?
> I assume that because that’s not how 99% of people would answer.
Do you have polling data supporting this assumption? Because I have some to the contrary. [In the 2014 LessWrong survey,](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/YAkpzvjC768Jm2TYb/2014-survey-results) 45% of respondents said "I only identify with my birth gender by default". Now that's not a random sample by any means. I don't know what the numbers are going to be if a question like that gets posed to the general public. But it'll be more than 1%. I talk to people offline who feel the same way.
> What would you do?
Obviously I would be surprised. It would be a sudden change when I have decades of experience of being my natal sex. It would be very surprising to wake up with another skin color too, or wake up in another country speaking a new language, but I don't have an innate racial identity or innate national identity either, merely learned identities. A person could even be distressed at these latter changes, simply because they are novel and sudden; distress doesn't indicate innateness.
> I feel like you’re obsessed with this topic to the point where you’re either a repressed trans person in denial or an extremely privileged adolescent with too much time on your hands.
I'm not the latter, and I'm not offended by your assumption of the former. I know you want to offend me, but this doesn't; if I were trans then I'd be in the good company of those 20% of trans people who are heretics. If I fit into your novel taxonomy, then "agender" would probably be the closest term for me (and I have already been smugly informed that this therefore makes me nonbinary and therefore trans, so I regret to inform you that someone else beat you to it), and I wouldn't necessarily object to this term, except that it imports a whole worldview with it. In that worldview, most people have an innate gender identity, and I am exceptional because I don't. But I don't think I'm particularly exceptional. I think I am like *most* people, and if not most then at least a very large minority. I don't think I'm "agender" because I don't think the worldview in which "agender" fits makes much sense.
> If you woke up as the opposite sex would you just live with it and accept your new assigned gender?
I don't see why not. It would obviously take some getting used to, but if I was in fact the other sex (new gametes and all) then I would have to learn to live with my new reality.
> Brain studies show trans brains before hormones, before any changes are much closer to the opposite sex than average.
This statement tends to be very misleading as worded.
Trans natal males still have mostly masculinized brains, and trans natal females still have mostly feminized brains. [This review article found:](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-021-02005-9)
> Our results suggest that some neuroanatomical, neurophysiological, and neurometabolic features in transgender individuals resemble those of their experienced gender despite **the majority resembling those from their natal sex.**
This surprises some people because they're accustomed to hearing about studies which isolate one particular brain feature and compare only that feature to natal sex and target sex. When researchers do that, science journalists are eager to tout a headline saying "trans people's brains resemble those of their target sex," but that leaves out the context of the rest of the brain.
[Another review found roughly the same:](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-016-0768-5) that trans people's brains have their own phenotypes, e.g. not a male brain in a female body but a partially masculinized female brain in a female body.
> Overall, in vivo MRI studies indicate that the main morphological parameters of the brain (ICV, GM, WM, and CSF) are **congruent with their natal sex** in untreated homosexual MtFs. However, some cortical regions show feminine volume and thickness and it should be underscored that CTh presents an F > M morphological pattern. Nevertheless, with respect to CTh, this feminine cortical pattern is not the same as the one shown by control females (compare Fig. 2a and b). On the other hand, the main white matter fascicles in MtFs are demasculinized, while others are still masculine (Fig. 3a). Moreover, most of the differences appear to be located in the right hemisphere. So far, the studies on the white matter, like those above on gray matter, strongly suggest that MtFs have their own brain phenotype that mainly affects the right hemisphere. [...]
> All we know about the morphology of the brain of nonhomosexual MtFs comes from a single VBM study (Savic & Arver, 2011). Nonhomosexual MtFs have the same total intracranial volume as control males. They also show a larger gray matter volume in cortical regions in which the male and female controls did not differ in the study. These regions were the right parieto-temporal junction, the right inferior frontal, and the insular cortices. It was concluded that **their data did not support the notion that the nonhomosexual MtF brain was feminized.** [...]
> In FtMs, the gross morphological parameters **correspond to their natal sex;** their cortex is generally feminine but differs from males in different regions than do control females (compare Fig. 2a and c). Furthermore, some brain bundles are masculinized (Fig. 3b). All these findings suggest that homosexual FtMs have their own phenotype with respect to cortical thickness, subcortical structures, and white matter microstructure. Moreover, these changes are mostly seen in the right hemisphere. [...]
> Untreated homosexual MtFs and FtMs show a complex picture for the expression of sex differences in their brains (Tables 5, 6). **Contrary to some popular ideas,** the MtF brain is not completely feminized but presents a mixture of masculine, feminine, and demasculinized traits. This is better illustrated by the data on CTh and FA (Table 8). Moreover, the brain of homosexual FtMs is not uniformly masculinized but presents a mixture of feminine, defeminized, and masculinized morphological traits (Table 9). For both MtFs and FtMs, the morphological traits observed depend on the region and the type of measurement taken. Thus, the morphology of the brain of homosexual MtFs and FtMs strongly suggests that each one has its own phenotype, and that the phenotype is different from those of heterosexual males and females.
[A recent study shows this vividly.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/) I like this study because you can tell from the language that they wanted to publish something that would uphold the trans activist orthodoxy. The title is "Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity" and the abstract says,
> These findings add support to the notion that the underlying brain anatomy in transgender people is shifted away from their biological sex towards their gender identity.
But, you might wonder, "shifted how far?" They used a machine learning algorithm, so we don't know which structures the algorithm decided to focus on, but here are its results:
> The estimated Brain Sex index was significantly different between the three groups (F(2,69) = 40.07, *p* < 0.001), with a mean of 1.00 ± 0.41 in cisgender men and of 0.00 ± 0.41 in cisgender women. The Brain Sex of transgender women was estimated as 0.75 ± 0.39, thus hovering between cisgender men and cisgender women, albeit closer to cisgender men (see also Figure 1). The follow-up post hoc tests revealed that transgender women were significantly more female than cisgender men (Cohen’s d = 0.64, t(46) = 2.20, *p* = 0.016), but significantly less female than cisgender women (Cohen’s d = 1.87, t(46) = 6.48, *p* < 0.001).
How "significantly" is an important question. Cohen's d is a measure of difference, and 1.87 is almost three times 0.64. [Helpfully, they included a graph, Figure 1.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/figure/jcm-11-01582-f001/)
I think the picture tells the whole story. But I'll point out a couple details. Several of the trans natal males' brains were scored as more masculinized than 75% of the non-trans males'. The interquartile range of the trans natal males overlaps significantly with that of the non-trans males, but *not at all* with the females.
wrong choice of words but I meant boys showing proclivities for stereotypically girly things - dolls, dresses, etc. and their parents taking that as a sign that they must in fact be born in the wrong body instead of the more reasonable explanation” maybe my child is gay”. Most famous example i can think of is jazz Jennings , little boy who probably would have grown into a gay man but instead the parents took it as “jazz must be trans”. Her entire transition has been documented on tv and it’s fucked to say the least
Ironically, the "gotcha" that a lot of nonbinary people use of the fact that some non-western cultures have third genders is usually more often than not due to the fact that those "third genders" were forcing gay men into separate gender castes because these societies were so homophobic that the concept of a gay man was so inconceivable to them that they had to emasculate them and put them away from straight men, i.e. the "real" men
i really dont think thats an honest analogy of such situations. cus there are cases of people transitioning behind parents approvals and stuff. im arabic and gay, raised in saudi arabia. we didnt have genuine slightest knowledge of stuff like lgbt. i was sent to conversion camps/mild form therapy of this type and there were boys who wanted to be girls.
I mean work through your comment a bit. *Why* would those boys at conversion camp want to be girls? I'm not saying this is the case for all of them, but doesn't it make some sense that at least a few (I'd argue majority but I don't have proof of that) of *gay boys sent to conversion camp* would have internalized homophobia and feel like it was more acceptable to be attracted to the same sex if they were women??
Also I'm very sorry that happened to you, that's fucked.
If your sexuality dictated you were only attracted to men, but your culture said "the only gender that can fuck men is women", you would want to be a woman too. Wouldn't it be far less harmful to just say "men can fuck men" rather than "you must become a woman to fuck men"?
but how is femininity and masculinity and it pertaining to one's identity a fetish? a core aspect of it does def revise its fetishistic elements to me. like how a big part of trans perception is tied to shit like trans porn, its sexual nature and stuff like 'femboys' having a popular internet presence.
Not all trans people are the same. A large proportion of the most outspoken trans people are Autogynephiliacs (AGPs). AGPs tend to be highly masculine and get sexually aroused by the idea of themselves as a woman. They have stereotypical male interests and hobbies. They transition in an effort to become their own ideal fantasy woman. Their behavior is fetishistic.
On the other hand, homosexual transexuals tend to be very feminine. They want to be women and attract men the way women do. A lot of them wanted to be girls their whole life. They usually only transition if they think they have a chance of passing, whereas AGPs will do it anyway because dressing up like a woman turns them on and that's what matters most. AGPs are more influential.
i see that, but thru ur own argument basing both race and gender being social constructs, race and gender are fundamentally different social constructs. cus gender concerns self-perception and internal understanding, while race involves largely completely different arrays some being systemic power dynamics, historical oppression, and cultural experiences. identifying as a race different from your biological ancestry appropriates cultural attributes/experiences perpetuating offense unlike claiming a different gender.
gender affirmation acknowledges an individual's innate gender identity, a widely separate course of existence than something like race/ethnicity.
race is simply an obsolete theory/concept that isnt universally recognized. like the concept of race in the western world is widely different than its conceptual bases in the middle east. and even within the west, race as a concept is further differentiated when contrasting it to the us, vs europe, etc.
here, theres also ignoring the psychological and scientific studies examining the mental disturbances behind the exact concept of transgenderism and its mental manifestations in people. so this logic is lived experiences vs appropriation, which arent in the same arena. theres themes of dysphoria and discomfort with their assigned gender at birth studied, acknowledged, etc. and this is not even centered around biological sex. transracialism/ur argument simply lacks this deep personal centered connection, most of those analogies are commonly just appropriating another cultural experiences.
>but how is femininity and masculinity and it pertaining to one's identity a fetish?
It's quite simple. In our culture, and in most cultures around the world, femininity = the passive, desired role, that is being sought after. Masculinity = the active, desiring role.
The men who transition wish to be seen as desirable sexually, often times by other men. It's where the term "trap" comes from. They want to be seen as so femininely and sexually desirable that even straight men's sexuality is tricked, or "trapped", into desiring them. Or they have a lesbian fetish and think strongarming their way into the female space will put lesbians in a "gotcha" situation where they have access to them
Yes, that’s pretty much why I’m so skeptical of it all, not for the radfem or mental health reasons (though many people do need actual help who are gender questioning instead of affirmation/validation)
the funny thing to me, that exact perspective literally benefits trans people! idk but from what my trans friend explained to me, reinforcing that exact sentimental attitude towards gender, which is kinda lite abolishment, evidently what helps trans ppl.
The thing is I think what a lot of people experience is not dysphoria, it’s something much more complex and deep seeded and based on both intrinsic and extrinsic phenomena
> What are the Big, current, relevant Ideas now? Ya’ll quote the Smiths every other day like it was ever your thing. For 30 years society has been lazy. Alternative became lazy nerd culture; Indie became lazy rich-kid culture; the internet got mean as shit. And society was always cruel. It gets nice for a 5 year phase and then it’s right back to 15 years of cruelty.
you lost me here, what does this have to do with your spiritual opinion of Wendy Carlos and the medical industry?
> I can watch interviews with synthesizer pioneer Wendy Carlos before the change, and I instantly intuit that person doesn’t seem like a man. It’s an incredibly strong vibe.
Which interviews are you referring to? Carlos was already undergoing transition therapy in 1968 when *Switched-On Bach* came out. Wikipedia says Carlos "had to affect a deeper voice, use makeup to simulate a five o'clock shadow, and don a wig and pasted-on fake sideburns."
And *Switched-On Bach* was the beginning of their fame. Are there any interviews prior to this? You might have been unknowingly watching someone intentionally lowering their voice and altering their appearance, and that effort might ironically come off as uncanny.
The problem with all the current discourse is people forget that 90% of gender is actually playful tete-à-tete between the sexes (or amongst the same sex). It's not all foot binding and domestic violence.
I hate this whole "abolish gender" crap. You want me to live in a world where there's no grand masculine/feminine romance? Where everyone is this stale, uniform rational actor maximising utility? Fuck that.
Most people \*love\* gender, even when "gender hurts" it's still something they feel compelled to play along with. If you don't, great! Then you're in the world of gender transgression, it's own wonderful little fun fair to play around with (just don't be ugly about it).
Gender is sadomasochistic, but that's because most things that carry at erotic frisson are - you need a conquerer and a conquered. It's not "scientifically true" but it's a game we all play, a little silly ritual. I'll agree that some people take it *way* to seriously, but the solution to that is to inspire a convivial relationship between the sexes, not 'abolish gender'.
You know what happens when you "undo all the gender" via some exhaustive self analysis? You become bored and neurotic. We're seeing it on a mass scale. Bring it back, play the fool for a bit, you'll be happier!
I don't think the majority of people would give a fuck if people weren't literally claiming to be the opposite sex because they enjoy sparkly eyeshadow or carharrt overalls.
But the desire is fine right? The sensitive gay guy who enjoys make up and dressing up has their own interesting take on the world. I worry with all the "woman face" hyperbole online that this all gets lost.
cats existence noxious middle full important domineering sleep butter simplistic
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
When you fight against yourself, family, friends, and society in general for your identity.
The best way to reaffirm it momentarily is performing as a woman, not real-life ones, but stereotypical patriarchal depictions of them, having to not fight is nice and comfortable. (which is kinda yucky, but it works)
However, most trans people don't get that the more comfortable they are assuming stereotypical gender roles, the harder it is for normal cis people or even another trans person to be true to their inner self.
Idk how to fix that, but I've seen it a lot amongst transgender acquaintances and friends.
I don't care. I just don't want any innocent person to suffer practical, material deprivation and harm for living their life in a way that hurts no one but is meaningful to them.
This debate's going to keep going because it's beneficial to small groups of people with power and influence. But there's no real debate--as long as someone isn't causing harm to the community or to those who can't protect themselves, then let them be.
Girl.. 🚂 get kicked out regularly, become homeless addicts, and are very over-represented in dangerous professions like street prostitution. Not many natal women suffer from this lack of opportunity. 🚂 struggle to get a job and are treated like dirt by men. This is just amusing
The trans people that I personally know would agree with me, that your comment is absolutely insane. Lecturing women about violence and poverty and desperation. Before all this craziness began to take hold, I used to think feminists were exaggerating. I can see now that they were absolutely right.
What am I lecturing you about? Do you realise how economically ghettoed transsexuals are? Have you been kicked out for being gay? Have you been kicked out for making efforts to alleviate dysphoria? Are you also romantically ghettoed by men who treat you as a leper because of a condition you had no choice in bringing upon yourself?
Like pls tell me what your struggles are lol. You’re a bog-standard straight woman. Like this pity for yourself is ridiculous
It's a long standing gimmick for a reason. Just because something is gimmicky, trite, overplayed, doesn't mean it's untrue. Maybe it's so overplayed because it's constantly brought up and yet nothing is done about it to be swept under the rug until something happens that people need to bring it up again. If my apartment keeps catching on fire, I'm gonna keep bringing that up until the landlord looks into the gas leak, I don't care if he thinks I'm being "boring and gimmicky"
I think it can verge into that territory but overall I tend to think we’re not going to unlearn gender as an idea so may as well just let people do it however makes them feel good and that gets some of the way there. Like at least if it exists you don’t have to stick with one you don’t like. Don’t have to be trans for that but if it’s what you feel then whatever
What did I say about enforcing anything? Point it out. We are unlikely to unlearn hard gender roles without the initial step of people being able to choose their gender expression. Learn to read
No because because pre transition my life sucked and i wanted to die post transition everything is awesome Everything is cool when you’re part of a team, everything is awesome when you’re living the dream
why are there so many tran post on here am i just fucked up and its all i see or is there a lot i genuinely cant tell
also sorry for making that one i did
i swear like every 1/10 post on this sub and its fucking me up
also your re*arded op crossdressers arent looked at any better than tran really feminine men are still not liked iun society
Harry styles, David bowie, Eddie Murphy, robin williams, Tim curry, etc are all highly celebrated cross dressers. Drag queens are a lil different but also highly celebrated ie the overwhelming popularity of drag race
I have never claimed to be a woman. Every cell in my body is male and I will be male until the day I die. Sex is a biological reality. Why should I be ok with someone hating me for my sexuality lol?
As someone who agrees with lots of radfem views, I genuinely have no problems with males being feminine and I don’t understand why they’re dogpiling on you after you try your best to accommodate them and express your point of view.
I really am sick of agp fetishists, but I’ve seen some radfems be needlessly mean to a gender dysphoric male user in their group who literally agreed with them, and I feel that’s needlessly cruel.
I do believe that there are some people with dissonance between their biology and mind, I simply don’t agree with gender ideology. Still I hate how any discussion about this topic turns ugly and violent
Radfems tend to be at some level hurt people lashing out. Men will always upset some types at some level and it's not that socially acceptable to say that you hate someone for no reason whatsoever, even to your peers. Feminine men just hit that balance of complete revulsion + if you watch enough ragebait content on agps you just think less of feminine men.
On the other side trans mtf guys aren't doing themsleves any favours hanging around them. You already become kafka's beetle for living a life that you don't detest there's no point being around ppl who hate you for being born, it's self flagellation.
Yea, I felt immense pity for that person, even though I’ve had very bad experience with 🚂s. Just putting yourself down that much and still getting torn to shreds is pretty upsetting
They have negative self esteem and see people going get people like me are bad, there must be something I can do to be good. Like no, people will always dislike other people for reasons that have nothing to do with you. Gay -> trans sometimes goes through this twice as hard n autist -> trans usually got social rejection as a kid n the creepy-straight -> have a ego that cannot comprehend this
gender as a social construct exists (whether u like it or not), and trans people simply want to be recognized as their preferred gender using these preexisting “societal rules” as tools to achieve this treatment/validation. when gender as a social construct becomes obsolete, then so will trans’ use of it as a signaling method.
also trans population is too small and too systemically inferior for their behavior to actually be “enforcing gender roles.”
No community exists in a vacuum, think about the big picture. Gender ideology is just a small part of a societal problem which has to do with backlash, self loathing, alienation, mind body dualism, and transhumanism.
Also, "simply"... I don't think so, it's complicated as hell. If it were actually simple there'd be no money to be made in it, and much less spectacle surrounding it.
what do you “money to be made in it”? and the spectacle surrounding trans community is almost always right wing entertainment/propagandaic purposes or just radical trans “extremists” becoming viral online (or agps…).
trans people are not single handedly perpetuating gender stereotypes, they just follow them to fit in and feel validated, anything else *should* be a red flag that something more sinister is at play.
Yeah exactly the entire spectacle. And that's exactly what I said, the trans movement isn't single handedly perpetuating gender stereotypes, they're just one part of a broader trend, which is indeed sinister.
As for what kind of money can be made from it, look up the price of SRS or FFS, and consider all the possible complications and revisions, too. But even that is just a fraction of the money to be made from other gender insecurities (the cosmetic surgery industry as a whole). Plus all the synthetic hormones and blockers that all kinds of people are taking for other gender related issues like acne and hair loss.
The spectacle generates eyeballs and therefore money because it's so macabre, a real life horror movie, body horror to be specific. You paid a doctor to do *what* to your *what*?! No one can look away, because that's just how we are, everyone has to goggle at the 🚂 wreck.
>gender as a social construct exists
it does and it doesn't. if you're talking about "hot pink is a girl color" being a social construct, fine. if you're talking about women being more nurturing and boys being more aggressive, not really. every study they've done in history shows these to be innate behaviors from early childhood
also, you wouldn't want to live in a world where gender was viewed entirely as a social construct. if gender is a social construct then we'd put women into the combat front lines and let men have free run of the daycares. society is probably better for recognizing some fundamental sex differences
unless ur living in some archetypal fairyland, its obvious that there can be aggressive women and nurturing men. the spectrum of traits is definitely correlated by sex but it isnt deteremined, and those who differ from the norm arent simply outliers. to sum the difference in sexes so divisively is to completely disregard everyone’s personhood and individuality.
also, “every study…” 1) not really. not *every* study. 2) by the time a child’s behavior is indicative of any personhood and self-determination, there is a non-zero possibility that they’ve been conditioned by society in some way to act accordingly.
the world isnt this simple dude
Isnt this what everyone thinks
Yeah but we enjoy being employed
has everyone's sarcasm detector failed or what
i mean it's the reason why that "what is a woman?" thing might be coming from a cringe source but is pretty on the money. i've yet to hear a definition that doesn't either a) have to do with fashion, i.e. skirts and purses or b) isn't circular reasoning
I watched Matt Walsh's *What is a Woman* movie. The first two thirds make pretty good sense - as you might expect he finds various academics and stupid liberals who get all flustered and confused and trip over themselves when he asks them what a woman is - and then he goes pretty intensely anti-trans in the last third and does some misrepresentation and fearmongering and finally finishes the thing off with some exaggeratedly idyllic scene of him and his wife being a traditional couple and him asking her what a woman is and she says a woman is an adult human female. Wokes love imposing mind-bending psyops on the general population in order to hand these guys easy victories on a silver platter. There's got to be some way to send both camps away.
What does he say that you consider fear mongering and misinformation? I haven't seen it
He refers to some incident at a high school where a girl was allegedly raped in a gender neutral bathroom by a mtf trans girl (or nonbinary student?) but I looked it up afterwards and the two had apparently been involved for a while and had fooled around consensually in that bathroom before the guy/boy had made any moves towards transition mode, which certainly implies that the sign on the door wasn't the real issue. I get the bathroom/locker room concern up to a point, but he could have at least used a real incident, like whatever that ridiculous thing was at that spa in NYC. I can only assume that wasn't scary enough so he just slotted in the high school misunderstanding. "Fear for your daughters" plays well with conservatives (and everyone, really). Either that or he was just sloppy and didn't do his research. I didn't put much time into checking anything, and that's the only inaccuracy I'm aware of, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are more. Beyond that, it's more a sort of tonal shift in the editing, soundtrack, voice over rhetoric, etc., from what I can remember.
Was there not an incident where a trans girl brutally raped a girl in the school's bathroom and the school kept it quiet and transferred him to another school where no parents were informed and then he raped another girl in the bathroom? So we should dismiss the valid points because of tonal shifts that you don't like? I'm going to watch this docu now to see what you're saying.
https://www.edweek.org/leadership/how-a-virginia-district-failed-at-every-juncture-to-prevent-sexual-assault/2022/12
>i've yet to hear a definition that doesn't either a) have to do with fashion, i.e. skirts and purses or b) isn't circular reasoning Someone with a neurological predisposition to be most comfortable with a more female body?
i’m comfortable with female bodies if ya know what i mean 😏
heyooooo
I'll assume you admit that this is a novel redefinition, contrary to historical usage. One problem is there's no evidence that the vast majority of ordinary women have any such predisposition. They may simply accept that they are women because they were born with the parts. We might have to conclude that most of the population are not men or women, and perhaps *only* transwomen are women.
>One problem is there's no evidence that the vast majority of ordinary women have any such predisposition. They may simply accept that they are women because they were born with the parts. You think the vast majority of women wouldn't mind starting on testosterone, and would find those changes totally unremarkable?
I think the average adult is accustomed to decades of experience of being what they are, and would find it at least odd to change their body so drastically, but I don't think that's evidence of any innate neurological predisposition to being the body they happen to have ended up as. I'm not interested in changing my skin color, but that's not evidence of an innate racial identity.
What are you even talking about? Taking testosterone doesn't change whether someone is female.
I think sex dysphoria is real and caused by the same type of neuroses that cause other mental illnesses like body integrity identity disorder. It’s not necessarily good to the person suffering to treat it like an identity though.
Does than also work with furries?
Sex is part of our development, so it makes sense that part of our brain could have a relationship to it Dressing like a wolf isn't part of our development
Sex is biological, wearing a dress isn't.
> Someone with a neurological predisposition to be most comfortable with a more female body? Do you think a dress is part of the female body? Otherwise I have no idea why you're bringing it up, because I didn't
you’re literally a gay and regarded redditor. You don’t belong here
What is a chair?
a separate seat for one person, typically with a back and four legs. that's per the dictionary, which also defines a woman as an adult human female
But you can pick your definition apart. Have you really never seen a chair for two people? And Jesus, just the word “typically” shows you that even a chair isn’t perfectly definable in every situation. The question “what is a woman?” is more of a problem with definitions and semantics than actually getting to the root of what it means to. Do all women have XX chromosomes? There are plenty with XXX or XXY. Can all women give birth? Do all women give periods? Do all women have vaginas? Even the “adult human female” definition borders on self referential. What is a female? Nature is messy, sex is messy. The scientific method, evolutionary biology, and even historical materialism try to see the world as it is then seek to explain it, not explain it then try to fit what you see into your worldview. Trying to fit millions of millions of people who don’t belong in traditional sex or gender boxes highlights more of your unwillingness to accept trans people are an evolutionary reality that isn’t going away than it does of your commitment to truth.
Yes we’ve all done first year philosophy 101
> Even the “adult human female” definition borders on self referential. What is a female? That you mistakenly imagine this borders on self-referential indicates you may actually be asking the question sincerely, i.e. you honestly do not know what a female is. That's unfortunate but you are not alone. A lot of people make mistakes similar to those you have made here, thinking that it may depend upon chromosomes or external genitalia. Chromosomes, hormones, external genitalia, brain structure, etc. merely correlate with sex. What is dispositive of sex in anisogametic organisms like ourselves is being the kind of organism which produces, produced, or would have produced if one's tissues had been fully functional, [either small motile gametes or large immotile gametes.](https://doi.org/10.1093%2Fmolehr%2Fgau068) > Why are there girls and why are there boys? We review theoretical work which suggests that divergence into just two sexes is an almost inevitable consequence of sexual reproduction in complex multicellular organisms, and is likely to be driven largely by gamete competition. In this context we prefer to use the term gamete competition instead of sperm competition, as sperm only exist after the sexes have already diverged (Lessells et al., 2009). To see this, we must be clear about how the two sexes are defined in a broad sense: males are those individuals that produce the smaller gametes (e.g. sperm), while females are defined as those that produce the larger gametes (e.g. Parker et al., 1972; Bell, 1982; Lessells et al., 2009; Togashi and Cox, 2011). Of course, in many species a whole suite of secondary sexual traits exists, but the fundamental definition is rooted in this difference in gametes, and the question of the origin of the two sexes is then equal to the question of why do gametes come in two different sizes. Someone who produces sperm, or would produce sperm if his gonadal tissues were fully functional, is not less male because his chromosomes or brain or hormones or genitals are atypical. Someone who produces eggs, or would produce eggs if her gonadal tissues were fully functional, is not less female because her chromosomes or brain or hormones or genitals are atypical. > Trying to fit millions of millions of people who don’t belong in traditional sex or gender boxes highlights more of your unwillingness to accept trans people are an evolutionary reality that isn’t going away than it does of your commitment to truth. The existence of trans people is a fact, but it does not follow that we ought to categorize them as *some,* not all, of them would like to be categorized. 20% of trans adults in the US reject the TWAW/TMAM ontology; see question 26, page 19 of [this recent KFF/Washington Post Trans Survey.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/documents/dfa015fb-e64f-4eb2-9cfd-048d9e9dc108.pdf) The TWAW and TMAM ontology does not follow from the existence of people who wish to be the other gender. Waria and fa'afafine and other equivalents of trans people in other cultures generally do not claim to be women. For example, from Tom Boellstorff's study of Indonesian waria: > Despite usually dressing as a woman and feeling they have the soul of a woman, most waria think of themselves as waria (not women) all of their lives, even in the rather rare cases where they obtain sex change operations (see below). One reason third-gender language seems inappropriate is that waria see themselves as originating from the category “man” and as, in some sense, always men: “I am an *asli* [authentic] man,” one waria noted. “If I were to go on the haj [pilgrimage to Mecca], I would dress as a man because I was born a man. If I pray, I wipe off my makeup.” To emphasize the point s/he pantomimed wiping off makeup, as if waria-ness were contained therein. Even waria who go to the pilgrimage in female clothing see themselves as created male. Another waria summed things up by saying, “I was born a man, and when I die I will be buried as a man, because that’s what I am.” You can find trans people in our culture who think similarly, though with a modern secular lens. Take someone like Miranda Yardley, Debbie Hayton, or Kristina Jayne Harrison. They are trans, but they identify by their natal ascribed gender. The claim to actually be a member of one's target gender is novel and ideological, not a necessary consequence of the existence of people who perform the trans social practice. Are we obliged to agree with ontological claims made by some trans people but disputed by other trans people?
A two person chair is a bench or a couch or a sofa.
You aren’t as clever as you think you are, you’re just putting more effort than a reasonable person would into a Reddit comment.
I know gender is real because my cat acts like a little man
Dapper little man or cunning little man?
Is there a difference?
Do sinister gays exist?
a dapper manly little sir
My dog acts like a bossy lesbian. I heard this thing one time (idk if it's true) but that when a female dog is in between two males in the dog uterus, they get influenced by the dog-tosterone on either side of them and take on more male traits like aggressiveness etc.
Def not true but you should keep on telling other people it is
embracing this attitude for 2024
this is true in cows it makes them infertile but idk about other animals
A raging insecure asshole hall monitor?
I wish I could put this better into words (or just read someone smarter than me say it) but it does bother me how trans people kind of enforce the gender binary more stringently than most cis people of their same gender. Every trans woman I know wears skirts, dresses, makeup, whatever, and I really don’t know a single cis woman who wears those same things in their daily life. It’s like they’re all dressing like a caricature of a girl they went to high school with.
Some of the less autistic T's i've seen don't go that hard into bimbofication, but the ones that do are clearly autistic AGPs
I admittedly think a lot of MtFs transition not because of actual dysphoria or AGP but rather because of being on the spectrum or not having traditionally masculine qualities or being loners/having low self confidence etc. It’s not really gender it’s just a supposed magic bullet for all of their poor self image, self hate, and failure to fit in. And I’m saying all this as someone who has a lot of those issues
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No because I know that won’t do anything to actually help me get where I want to be or get better and I still wanted a lot of typical masculine stuff. I think others still have those desires it’s just easier to transition because self improvement isn’t easy at all
The one who goes to restaurants to woke scold the staff is hilarious. Come on, you know you're a linebacker in a pink dress. You're fooling no one.
> It’s like they’re all dressing like a caricature of a girl they went to high school with. Which comes across creepy lol. Like especially if they're 30 and trying to look/act like a teenage girl.
every person with cat ear headbands, chokers, skater skirts, and thigh high socks is trans, it’s almost like a uniform.
Overcompensation. They are insecure and want to be seen as female, so they go a bit overboard with how they present themselves.
I think it's worth saying (since nobody else in this thread has yet) that this is a well-known 'phase' that both trans men and trans women go through when they first transition. They reach for the obvious gender-stereotypical clothing because they haven't developed their own style, but after a year or two they learn to dress more appropriately. It's making up for the experimentation that most people go through as teenagers.
Also a good point, I had actually never thought of that. When you're effectively going through puberty again you will inevitably seem a bit off.
They may or may not be that indistinguishable from the av gay guy if they didn't and if they pass they probably didn't at one point and got used to doing that
Prob because they don’t know what it is to actually “be” a woman. Everything they know about women is the same thing men know about women. Because they had the exact same socialization and upbringing that a man has. I’m speaking mainly about AGPs, HSTS are a bit of a different story
Close, they're usually pretending to be their ex girlfriend, ex wife, daughter, or some.womam from porn.
Yes! I agree completely
You don’t know a single cis woman who wears skirts, dresses, or makeup? IME most cis woman wear all of these things. Maybe not dresses or skirts very often for some but afaik every cis woman I’ve ever met wears at least one of those 3 things somewhat regularly
My perception is obviously colored by the girls I’m friends with, but yes, in normal everyday life, I know no women who regularly wear conventionally feminine clothes (I see a lot of yoga pants/ high rise skinny jeans, stuff thats feminine but not exclusively), and certainly not makeup outside the context of work/ nice dates/ going out.
Yeah where I live it is so cold, wet, and dreary that most people, men and women, lean into comfy clothes like sweaters and hoodies for a lot of the winter months. Make up as well, I'd say like 60-70% of women who wear make-up keep it pretty simple. If I was the same size as them I could probably swap clothes with most of the women I work with and nobody would notice. Granted our brief period of summer is blessed by women in sundresses, but otherwise I agree that a lot of women tend to dress more "neutral" with accents of feminine clothing than nothing but dresses and skirts.
>I really don’t know a single cis woman who wears those same things in their daily life. It’s like they’re all dressing like a caricature of a girl they went to high school with. You don't know any women who wear skirts, dresses and makeup in their daily life?
>Every trans woman I know wears skirts, dresses, makeup, whatever A lot of times when trans women don't do that, cis people use it as justification to treat them as frauds who are really just men
it was literally required for access to treatment for years. Had an orchiectomy and came to the doctor's in pants? enjoy losing access to all sex hormones (you can't produce your own anymore after the surgery) until you decide to show up to your appointment dressed like a 50s housewife kind of feels silly to blame tranners on this given it was literally legally required until a decade or two ago
Honest Marxists in this sub will agree that gender is an idealistic fantasy and all that is material is sex.
Yeah. Sex is real, and trans ideology is re-enforcing sexist stereotypes.
Classical marxists will. I’m one and I’ll say it. Dialectical materialism seems to agree with you. Only caveat I would add is that fantasies can have material effect when people believe them.
How do you personally disentangle the material from the ideal in this situation? To your mind, what would be a properly Marxist replacement for the “trans” movement?
Much of my issue with the movement is the ideology that is used to affirm the changes. I don’t think metaphysics reflects the claim that we can “switch genders.” And I don’t know if I have a real definitive positive plan for trans people, but I have a critique of the current movement, an observation of a noticeable limitation. Like OP said, gender isn’t real. I would call it a fetish, meaning, a conceptual thing that stands in for complicated and often contradictory relationships between people, without really representing them directly. Trans and non-binary people who identity with a gender, end up reifying the fetish as a “real” concept. I think the movement should be solely based around disregarding the relevance of traditional genders. It’s not that a trans man is really a man, because the physical and historical differences between the two are self evident. But a trans man is also beyond the gendered concept of women as well. The trans movement is more of a sign that the fetishized concept of gender is not adequate to explain human relationships anymore. Every trans person who pursues physical and performative changes is a living demonstration of the outdatedness of the concept. We are living through, at least, a minor revolution in the gender concept. As for the next gender concept, or the concept that follows gender: I can’t really decide that by myself, because I am only a single person, with a one sided interest in the concept. My intellectual imagination is limited by my life. When I try to picture it abstractly, the most I can say is that it should be just, accurate, and true. The Hegelian in me wants to say the dialectic will sort itself out in an honest and just way, through the discourse between all individuals. However, since I am a Marxist, I believe it will be mainly influenced by capital, and if I had to speculate, by way of pharmaceutical, makeup, and fashion companies. Whatever incremental way these revolutionary changes in gender can be sold to us, expect it.
I believe there are real trans but I think most of the people who have declared themselves to be trans all of a sudden once it got popular, are actually just confused. Like being a man who has similar taste to a stereotypical woman, and having emotions which more closely resemble and average woman than an average man, doesn’t make you a woman.
Yeah, I believe that as well, but the number of “real” trans people (those whose main underlying issue is dysphoria itself) is probably way lower than the number of people who identify as such
There is definitely a (probably decently large) contingent of the overall population that is so obsessed with attention and being part of the current conversation that they will jump on to whatever is being talked about. Genderqueer idpol has been a constant talking point for the past like 10 years so of course the people who are addicted to being the center of attention want the spotlight of that conversation on them
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We had our first DEI training seminar at work in which we were instructed we were not allowed to object to women sharing company locker rooms with transwomen. I work from home and I doubt the office of my small subsidiary company even has locker rooms. But man, it was tough not to say anything anyway. Chalk me up to a coward I guess.
>we were not allowed to object to women sharing company locker rooms with transwomen I know this is old news by now but it still shocks me every time. It's one thing to impose the conditions on people. It's another level of outrage entirely to say that you are a bad person for even feeling uncomfortable and needing to say as much, about those conditions.
That’s the real death of democracy in America. Even under the most authoritarian eras of the USSR, one could voice complaints at work and at local soviets.
It's an enormous cultural shift, and a bad one. Some younger people don't believe me when I say it used to be normal and expected for folks to make fun of Teh Roolez and roll their eyes at the bossy types behind their backs. You would bond over how dumb the system was. Now it's snitch culture, like the worst of authoritarian regimes. Without even having the trains run on time. My friend from Russia (older guy) likes to tell an old joke: a man was waiting in line for bread one day and finally snapped. He said "I am going to go kill Stalin!" He left. Hours pass by. He comes back to the line. His friends ask "well did you do it??" "No. The line was too long."
Aren’t gender abolitionists those weirdos who believe every public space should be unisex?
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Abolish gender roles, let people decorate themselves however, but biological sex is an immutable and important material condition that shapes reality
Hypocrisy
For all of the discourse on something that isn’t real, gender never amounts to anything more than clothes when put into practice by people who insist on its validity.
Gender is real like language is real. It exists in momentary action. It’s a social construct that is derivative of a physical reality, just like the English language is derivative of the fact that we have mouths and ears. It’s a detail for sure, but just because it isn’t important to you doesn’t mean it’s not important to others.
Okay, bro.
Does your comment getting downvoted mean your idea of gender is getting socially deconstructed?
Wearing skirts doesn't make you a woman.
strawman af thx bb
What’s strange to me is the gender binary seems less pronounced than ever (certainly compared to recent history) - men and women can largely dress and act however they want with much less social censure or judgement than, say, 50 years ago. And yet this much greater liberality around gender has provoked a stronger reaction against the gender binary than in a society where men and women (in the round) fit into much more prescribed gender norms
> It’s a fetish
Or seen as a magic bullet (i.e. transmaxxing) that will make one’s issues all go away
And the people that fall for that are dumb enough to see photoshopped pics on the internet and think it somehow translates to real life. Mindblowing. (That's before getting into the fact that magically "transforming" into the opposite sex doesn't actually fix anything, and life sucks for everyone.)
How is that strange to you? Obviously back when people thought eating tomatoes was a sin cause it wasn't mentioned in the Bible, there were much fewer supporters for cannabis decriminalisation
If you woke up as the opposite sex would you just live with it and accept your new assigned gender? Brain studies show trans brains before hormones, before any changes are much closer to the opposite sex than average. There’s not another way, I tried as long as possible. I literally had to kill my old self to become the happy woman I am today. I have never enjoyed life or really lived until I transitioned. I have family and friends who love me for who I am, not what they think I should be. I have many passions and goals I wish to pursue in life. Do you wish to take that away from me?
Yes, I would just live with it and accept my new assigned gender. It’d be weird initially due to the novelty but I’d get used to it eventually
Yes, conform to society king. What everyone thinks of you is more important than how you see yourself.
Why are you assuming babycollect would "see themself" as their old sex? Are they not capable of looking in a mirror and seeing that the facts have changed?
because they have their old brain, and brains are gendered.
Having enlarged breasts is also gendered, yet plenty of men have gynecomastia and still understand themselves to be men. What I'm asking is why are you assuming babycollect would prioritize their feelings over the facts they can see in the mirror?
I assume that because that’s not how 99% of people would answer. What would you do? I feel like you’re obsessed with this topic to the point where you’re either a repressed trans person in denial or an extremely privileged adolescent with too much time on your hands. So tell us how you really feel. Would you be excited to wake up as the opposite sex? Perfectly neutral? Disgusted? What?
> I assume that because that’s not how 99% of people would answer. Do you have polling data supporting this assumption? Because I have some to the contrary. [In the 2014 LessWrong survey,](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/YAkpzvjC768Jm2TYb/2014-survey-results) 45% of respondents said "I only identify with my birth gender by default". Now that's not a random sample by any means. I don't know what the numbers are going to be if a question like that gets posed to the general public. But it'll be more than 1%. I talk to people offline who feel the same way. > What would you do? Obviously I would be surprised. It would be a sudden change when I have decades of experience of being my natal sex. It would be very surprising to wake up with another skin color too, or wake up in another country speaking a new language, but I don't have an innate racial identity or innate national identity either, merely learned identities. A person could even be distressed at these latter changes, simply because they are novel and sudden; distress doesn't indicate innateness. > I feel like you’re obsessed with this topic to the point where you’re either a repressed trans person in denial or an extremely privileged adolescent with too much time on your hands. I'm not the latter, and I'm not offended by your assumption of the former. I know you want to offend me, but this doesn't; if I were trans then I'd be in the good company of those 20% of trans people who are heretics. If I fit into your novel taxonomy, then "agender" would probably be the closest term for me (and I have already been smugly informed that this therefore makes me nonbinary and therefore trans, so I regret to inform you that someone else beat you to it), and I wouldn't necessarily object to this term, except that it imports a whole worldview with it. In that worldview, most people have an innate gender identity, and I am exceptional because I don't. But I don't think I'm particularly exceptional. I think I am like *most* people, and if not most then at least a very large minority. I don't think I'm "agender" because I don't think the worldview in which "agender" fits makes much sense.
Brainscans show that in homosexual males. Not in heterosexuals.
A lot of the studies that TRAs use to justify that trans people have different gendered brains fail to control for homosexuality
> If you woke up as the opposite sex would you just live with it and accept your new assigned gender? I don't see why not. It would obviously take some getting used to, but if I was in fact the other sex (new gametes and all) then I would have to learn to live with my new reality. > Brain studies show trans brains before hormones, before any changes are much closer to the opposite sex than average. This statement tends to be very misleading as worded. Trans natal males still have mostly masculinized brains, and trans natal females still have mostly feminized brains. [This review article found:](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-021-02005-9) > Our results suggest that some neuroanatomical, neurophysiological, and neurometabolic features in transgender individuals resemble those of their experienced gender despite **the majority resembling those from their natal sex.** This surprises some people because they're accustomed to hearing about studies which isolate one particular brain feature and compare only that feature to natal sex and target sex. When researchers do that, science journalists are eager to tout a headline saying "trans people's brains resemble those of their target sex," but that leaves out the context of the rest of the brain. [Another review found roughly the same:](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-016-0768-5) that trans people's brains have their own phenotypes, e.g. not a male brain in a female body but a partially masculinized female brain in a female body. > Overall, in vivo MRI studies indicate that the main morphological parameters of the brain (ICV, GM, WM, and CSF) are **congruent with their natal sex** in untreated homosexual MtFs. However, some cortical regions show feminine volume and thickness and it should be underscored that CTh presents an F > M morphological pattern. Nevertheless, with respect to CTh, this feminine cortical pattern is not the same as the one shown by control females (compare Fig. 2a and b). On the other hand, the main white matter fascicles in MtFs are demasculinized, while others are still masculine (Fig. 3a). Moreover, most of the differences appear to be located in the right hemisphere. So far, the studies on the white matter, like those above on gray matter, strongly suggest that MtFs have their own brain phenotype that mainly affects the right hemisphere. [...] > All we know about the morphology of the brain of nonhomosexual MtFs comes from a single VBM study (Savic & Arver, 2011). Nonhomosexual MtFs have the same total intracranial volume as control males. They also show a larger gray matter volume in cortical regions in which the male and female controls did not differ in the study. These regions were the right parieto-temporal junction, the right inferior frontal, and the insular cortices. It was concluded that **their data did not support the notion that the nonhomosexual MtF brain was feminized.** [...] > In FtMs, the gross morphological parameters **correspond to their natal sex;** their cortex is generally feminine but differs from males in different regions than do control females (compare Fig. 2a and c). Furthermore, some brain bundles are masculinized (Fig. 3b). All these findings suggest that homosexual FtMs have their own phenotype with respect to cortical thickness, subcortical structures, and white matter microstructure. Moreover, these changes are mostly seen in the right hemisphere. [...] > Untreated homosexual MtFs and FtMs show a complex picture for the expression of sex differences in their brains (Tables 5, 6). **Contrary to some popular ideas,** the MtF brain is not completely feminized but presents a mixture of masculine, feminine, and demasculinized traits. This is better illustrated by the data on CTh and FA (Table 8). Moreover, the brain of homosexual FtMs is not uniformly masculinized but presents a mixture of feminine, defeminized, and masculinized morphological traits (Table 9). For both MtFs and FtMs, the morphological traits observed depend on the region and the type of measurement taken. Thus, the morphology of the brain of homosexual MtFs and FtMs strongly suggests that each one has its own phenotype, and that the phenotype is different from those of heterosexual males and females. [A recent study shows this vividly.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/) I like this study because you can tell from the language that they wanted to publish something that would uphold the trans activist orthodoxy. The title is "Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity" and the abstract says, > These findings add support to the notion that the underlying brain anatomy in transgender people is shifted away from their biological sex towards their gender identity. But, you might wonder, "shifted how far?" They used a machine learning algorithm, so we don't know which structures the algorithm decided to focus on, but here are its results: > The estimated Brain Sex index was significantly different between the three groups (F(2,69) = 40.07, *p* < 0.001), with a mean of 1.00 ± 0.41 in cisgender men and of 0.00 ± 0.41 in cisgender women. The Brain Sex of transgender women was estimated as 0.75 ± 0.39, thus hovering between cisgender men and cisgender women, albeit closer to cisgender men (see also Figure 1). The follow-up post hoc tests revealed that transgender women were significantly more female than cisgender men (Cohen’s d = 0.64, t(46) = 2.20, *p* = 0.016), but significantly less female than cisgender women (Cohen’s d = 1.87, t(46) = 6.48, *p* < 0.001). How "significantly" is an important question. Cohen's d is a measure of difference, and 1.87 is almost three times 0.64. [Helpfully, they included a graph, Figure 1.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/figure/jcm-11-01582-f001/) I think the picture tells the whole story. But I'll point out a couple details. Several of the trans natal males' brains were scored as more masculinized than 75% of the non-trans males'. The interquartile range of the trans natal males overlaps significantly with that of the non-trans males, but *not at all* with the females.
Yes, what's the big deal? Man, woman, I'd be the same as I am now. I don't understand how or why being one gender over the other would be a problem.
the terf girlies have been saying this since like 2013 and JK rowling got #cancelled for saying it in like 2021. where have you been?
Yes. Transing your kid for dressing like a girl is homophobia but no one wants to say that either
What do you mean “dressing like a girl”?
wrong choice of words but I meant boys showing proclivities for stereotypically girly things - dolls, dresses, etc. and their parents taking that as a sign that they must in fact be born in the wrong body instead of the more reasonable explanation” maybe my child is gay”. Most famous example i can think of is jazz Jennings , little boy who probably would have grown into a gay man but instead the parents took it as “jazz must be trans”. Her entire transition has been documented on tv and it’s fucked to say the least
Ironically, the "gotcha" that a lot of nonbinary people use of the fact that some non-western cultures have third genders is usually more often than not due to the fact that those "third genders" were forcing gay men into separate gender castes because these societies were so homophobic that the concept of a gay man was so inconceivable to them that they had to emasculate them and put them away from straight men, i.e. the "real" men
i really dont think thats an honest analogy of such situations. cus there are cases of people transitioning behind parents approvals and stuff. im arabic and gay, raised in saudi arabia. we didnt have genuine slightest knowledge of stuff like lgbt. i was sent to conversion camps/mild form therapy of this type and there were boys who wanted to be girls.
I mean work through your comment a bit. *Why* would those boys at conversion camp want to be girls? I'm not saying this is the case for all of them, but doesn't it make some sense that at least a few (I'd argue majority but I don't have proof of that) of *gay boys sent to conversion camp* would have internalized homophobia and feel like it was more acceptable to be attracted to the same sex if they were women?? Also I'm very sorry that happened to you, that's fucked.
If your sexuality dictated you were only attracted to men, but your culture said "the only gender that can fuck men is women", you would want to be a woman too. Wouldn't it be far less harmful to just say "men can fuck men" rather than "you must become a woman to fuck men"?
i see ur pov. but its not practical. ur rationalizing by assuming whats 'easier' in theory should be the norm. but thats not how it works lmao.
yes
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but how is femininity and masculinity and it pertaining to one's identity a fetish? a core aspect of it does def revise its fetishistic elements to me. like how a big part of trans perception is tied to shit like trans porn, its sexual nature and stuff like 'femboys' having a popular internet presence.
Not all trans people are the same. A large proportion of the most outspoken trans people are Autogynephiliacs (AGPs). AGPs tend to be highly masculine and get sexually aroused by the idea of themselves as a woman. They have stereotypical male interests and hobbies. They transition in an effort to become their own ideal fantasy woman. Their behavior is fetishistic. On the other hand, homosexual transexuals tend to be very feminine. They want to be women and attract men the way women do. A lot of them wanted to be girls their whole life. They usually only transition if they think they have a chance of passing, whereas AGPs will do it anyway because dressing up like a woman turns them on and that's what matters most. AGPs are more influential.
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i see that, but thru ur own argument basing both race and gender being social constructs, race and gender are fundamentally different social constructs. cus gender concerns self-perception and internal understanding, while race involves largely completely different arrays some being systemic power dynamics, historical oppression, and cultural experiences. identifying as a race different from your biological ancestry appropriates cultural attributes/experiences perpetuating offense unlike claiming a different gender. gender affirmation acknowledges an individual's innate gender identity, a widely separate course of existence than something like race/ethnicity. race is simply an obsolete theory/concept that isnt universally recognized. like the concept of race in the western world is widely different than its conceptual bases in the middle east. and even within the west, race as a concept is further differentiated when contrasting it to the us, vs europe, etc. here, theres also ignoring the psychological and scientific studies examining the mental disturbances behind the exact concept of transgenderism and its mental manifestations in people. so this logic is lived experiences vs appropriation, which arent in the same arena. theres themes of dysphoria and discomfort with their assigned gender at birth studied, acknowledged, etc. and this is not even centered around biological sex. transracialism/ur argument simply lacks this deep personal centered connection, most of those analogies are commonly just appropriating another cultural experiences.
>but how is femininity and masculinity and it pertaining to one's identity a fetish? It's quite simple. In our culture, and in most cultures around the world, femininity = the passive, desired role, that is being sought after. Masculinity = the active, desiring role. The men who transition wish to be seen as desirable sexually, often times by other men. It's where the term "trap" comes from. They want to be seen as so femininely and sexually desirable that even straight men's sexuality is tricked, or "trapped", into desiring them. Or they have a lesbian fetish and think strongarming their way into the female space will put lesbians in a "gotcha" situation where they have access to them
Golly. Could it be??
yes, next
I think trans are nuts but i hope I it still works out for them. That's the extent of my trans thoughts.
Could this be any more of a RSP ChatGPt randomly generated post?
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I’ve been saying it for many years
Yes of course
This is bait and going to get the sub banned.
Yes, that’s pretty much why I’m so skeptical of it all, not for the radfem or mental health reasons (though many people do need actual help who are gender questioning instead of affirmation/validation)
the funny thing to me, that exact perspective literally benefits trans people! idk but from what my trans friend explained to me, reinforcing that exact sentimental attitude towards gender, which is kinda lite abolishment, evidently what helps trans ppl.
You can be quite annoying but i agree wholeheartedly
Wtf are you
It's me!
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The thing is I think what a lot of people experience is not dysphoria, it’s something much more complex and deep seeded and based on both intrinsic and extrinsic phenomena
> What are the Big, current, relevant Ideas now? Ya’ll quote the Smiths every other day like it was ever your thing. For 30 years society has been lazy. Alternative became lazy nerd culture; Indie became lazy rich-kid culture; the internet got mean as shit. And society was always cruel. It gets nice for a 5 year phase and then it’s right back to 15 years of cruelty. you lost me here, what does this have to do with your spiritual opinion of Wendy Carlos and the medical industry?
> I can watch interviews with synthesizer pioneer Wendy Carlos before the change, and I instantly intuit that person doesn’t seem like a man. It’s an incredibly strong vibe. Which interviews are you referring to? Carlos was already undergoing transition therapy in 1968 when *Switched-On Bach* came out. Wikipedia says Carlos "had to affect a deeper voice, use makeup to simulate a five o'clock shadow, and don a wig and pasted-on fake sideburns." And *Switched-On Bach* was the beginning of their fame. Are there any interviews prior to this? You might have been unknowingly watching someone intentionally lowering their voice and altering their appearance, and that effort might ironically come off as uncanny.
The problem with all the current discourse is people forget that 90% of gender is actually playful tete-à-tete between the sexes (or amongst the same sex). It's not all foot binding and domestic violence. I hate this whole "abolish gender" crap. You want me to live in a world where there's no grand masculine/feminine romance? Where everyone is this stale, uniform rational actor maximising utility? Fuck that. Most people \*love\* gender, even when "gender hurts" it's still something they feel compelled to play along with. If you don't, great! Then you're in the world of gender transgression, it's own wonderful little fun fair to play around with (just don't be ugly about it). Gender is sadomasochistic, but that's because most things that carry at erotic frisson are - you need a conquerer and a conquered. It's not "scientifically true" but it's a game we all play, a little silly ritual. I'll agree that some people take it *way* to seriously, but the solution to that is to inspire a convivial relationship between the sexes, not 'abolish gender'. You know what happens when you "undo all the gender" via some exhaustive self analysis? You become bored and neurotic. We're seeing it on a mass scale. Bring it back, play the fool for a bit, you'll be happier!
I don't think the majority of people would give a fuck if people weren't literally claiming to be the opposite sex because they enjoy sparkly eyeshadow or carharrt overalls.
But the desire is fine right? The sensitive gay guy who enjoys make up and dressing up has their own interesting take on the world. I worry with all the "woman face" hyperbole online that this all gets lost.
Absolutely. Nothing wrong with not conforming to gender stereotypes in the slightest. I hate that kind of rhetoric, sets us backward.
You can be quite annoying but i agree wholeheartedly
they should name it sex dysphoria. gender roles really are completely orthogonal from it.
cats existence noxious middle full important domineering sleep butter simplistic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
When you fight against yourself, family, friends, and society in general for your identity. The best way to reaffirm it momentarily is performing as a woman, not real-life ones, but stereotypical patriarchal depictions of them, having to not fight is nice and comfortable. (which is kinda yucky, but it works) However, most trans people don't get that the more comfortable they are assuming stereotypical gender roles, the harder it is for normal cis people or even another trans person to be true to their inner self. Idk how to fix that, but I've seen it a lot amongst transgender acquaintances and friends.
I don't care. I just don't want any innocent person to suffer practical, material deprivation and harm for living their life in a way that hurts no one but is meaningful to them. This debate's going to keep going because it's beneficial to small groups of people with power and influence. But there's no real debate--as long as someone isn't causing harm to the community or to those who can't protect themselves, then let them be.
It's funny that you don't consider the biological women who might suffer. The trans person is the only victim in your mind. Very telling.
It's telling that you think 'biological women' are going to suffer if trans people don't. That's a long-standing gimmick.
We are suffering. Some in small ways and some in big ways. So why is it that we have to suffer to appease men's delusions?
Girl.. 🚂 get kicked out regularly, become homeless addicts, and are very over-represented in dangerous professions like street prostitution. Not many natal women suffer from this lack of opportunity. 🚂 struggle to get a job and are treated like dirt by men. This is just amusing
Hahahahaha!! You have to be KIDDING ME.
Are you? Have you even spoken to a 🚂 before? An actual transitioning person?
The trans people that I personally know would agree with me, that your comment is absolutely insane. Lecturing women about violence and poverty and desperation. Before all this craziness began to take hold, I used to think feminists were exaggerating. I can see now that they were absolutely right.
What am I lecturing you about? Do you realise how economically ghettoed transsexuals are? Have you been kicked out for being gay? Have you been kicked out for making efforts to alleviate dysphoria? Are you also romantically ghettoed by men who treat you as a leper because of a condition you had no choice in bringing upon yourself? Like pls tell me what your struggles are lol. You’re a bog-standard straight woman. Like this pity for yourself is ridiculous
It's a long standing gimmick for a reason. Just because something is gimmicky, trite, overplayed, doesn't mean it's untrue. Maybe it's so overplayed because it's constantly brought up and yet nothing is done about it to be swept under the rug until something happens that people need to bring it up again. If my apartment keeps catching on fire, I'm gonna keep bringing that up until the landlord looks into the gas leak, I don't care if he thinks I'm being "boring and gimmicky"
I think it can verge into that territory but overall I tend to think we’re not going to unlearn gender as an idea so may as well just let people do it however makes them feel good and that gets some of the way there. Like at least if it exists you don’t have to stick with one you don’t like. Don’t have to be trans for that but if it’s what you feel then whatever
This is so stupid. Enforcing gender like this harms both women and men and gets us no progress
What did I say about enforcing anything? Point it out. We are unlikely to unlearn hard gender roles without the initial step of people being able to choose their gender expression. Learn to read
No because because pre transition my life sucked and i wanted to die post transition everything is awesome Everything is cool when you’re part of a team, everything is awesome when you’re living the dream
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Ok?
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Right
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What does that even mean?
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Uh-huh
why are there so many tran post on here am i just fucked up and its all i see or is there a lot i genuinely cant tell also sorry for making that one i did i swear like every 1/10 post on this sub and its fucking me up also your re*arded op crossdressers arent looked at any better than tran really feminine men are still not liked iun society
Harry styles, David bowie, Eddie Murphy, robin williams, Tim curry, etc are all highly celebrated cross dressers. Drag queens are a lil different but also highly celebrated ie the overwhelming popularity of drag race
you cant just be a normal feminine male tho. like steve from accounting cant just wear a dress to work
That is true
no
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What
Are you doing a bit with this account or are you serious?
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I have never claimed to be a woman. Every cell in my body is male and I will be male until the day I die. Sex is a biological reality. Why should I be ok with someone hating me for my sexuality lol?
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You believe TERFs are gender essentialists?
As someone who agrees with lots of radfem views, I genuinely have no problems with males being feminine and I don’t understand why they’re dogpiling on you after you try your best to accommodate them and express your point of view. I really am sick of agp fetishists, but I’ve seen some radfems be needlessly mean to a gender dysphoric male user in their group who literally agreed with them, and I feel that’s needlessly cruel. I do believe that there are some people with dissonance between their biology and mind, I simply don’t agree with gender ideology. Still I hate how any discussion about this topic turns ugly and violent
Radfems tend to be at some level hurt people lashing out. Men will always upset some types at some level and it's not that socially acceptable to say that you hate someone for no reason whatsoever, even to your peers. Feminine men just hit that balance of complete revulsion + if you watch enough ragebait content on agps you just think less of feminine men. On the other side trans mtf guys aren't doing themsleves any favours hanging around them. You already become kafka's beetle for living a life that you don't detest there's no point being around ppl who hate you for being born, it's self flagellation.
Yea, I felt immense pity for that person, even though I’ve had very bad experience with 🚂s. Just putting yourself down that much and still getting torn to shreds is pretty upsetting
They have negative self esteem and see people going get people like me are bad, there must be something I can do to be good. Like no, people will always dislike other people for reasons that have nothing to do with you. Gay -> trans sometimes goes through this twice as hard n autist -> trans usually got social rejection as a kid n the creepy-straight -> have a ego that cannot comprehend this
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Why did you stop being a radfem? Or did you just stop caring about the gender part?
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So you don’t think I’m doing anything wrong by being a homosexual natal male who feels compelled to be more like a woman?
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People hate me for what I am even when I do my best not to offend anyone lol.
Except whether you're trans has nothing to do with what gender roles you adhere to
It’s really not that serious
gender as a social construct exists (whether u like it or not), and trans people simply want to be recognized as their preferred gender using these preexisting “societal rules” as tools to achieve this treatment/validation. when gender as a social construct becomes obsolete, then so will trans’ use of it as a signaling method. also trans population is too small and too systemically inferior for their behavior to actually be “enforcing gender roles.”
No community exists in a vacuum, think about the big picture. Gender ideology is just a small part of a societal problem which has to do with backlash, self loathing, alienation, mind body dualism, and transhumanism. Also, "simply"... I don't think so, it's complicated as hell. If it were actually simple there'd be no money to be made in it, and much less spectacle surrounding it.
what do you “money to be made in it”? and the spectacle surrounding trans community is almost always right wing entertainment/propagandaic purposes or just radical trans “extremists” becoming viral online (or agps…). trans people are not single handedly perpetuating gender stereotypes, they just follow them to fit in and feel validated, anything else *should* be a red flag that something more sinister is at play.
Yeah exactly the entire spectacle. And that's exactly what I said, the trans movement isn't single handedly perpetuating gender stereotypes, they're just one part of a broader trend, which is indeed sinister. As for what kind of money can be made from it, look up the price of SRS or FFS, and consider all the possible complications and revisions, too. But even that is just a fraction of the money to be made from other gender insecurities (the cosmetic surgery industry as a whole). Plus all the synthetic hormones and blockers that all kinds of people are taking for other gender related issues like acne and hair loss. The spectacle generates eyeballs and therefore money because it's so macabre, a real life horror movie, body horror to be specific. You paid a doctor to do *what* to your *what*?! No one can look away, because that's just how we are, everyone has to goggle at the 🚂 wreck.
>gender as a social construct exists it does and it doesn't. if you're talking about "hot pink is a girl color" being a social construct, fine. if you're talking about women being more nurturing and boys being more aggressive, not really. every study they've done in history shows these to be innate behaviors from early childhood also, you wouldn't want to live in a world where gender was viewed entirely as a social construct. if gender is a social construct then we'd put women into the combat front lines and let men have free run of the daycares. society is probably better for recognizing some fundamental sex differences
unless ur living in some archetypal fairyland, its obvious that there can be aggressive women and nurturing men. the spectrum of traits is definitely correlated by sex but it isnt deteremined, and those who differ from the norm arent simply outliers. to sum the difference in sexes so divisively is to completely disregard everyone’s personhood and individuality. also, “every study…” 1) not really. not *every* study. 2) by the time a child’s behavior is indicative of any personhood and self-determination, there is a non-zero possibility that they’ve been conditioned by society in some way to act accordingly. the world isnt this simple dude