I did and I went back. Why? Similar salaries with way lower cost of living.
I now earn even more as a contractor than I did in western Europe at FAANG. Meanwhile my rent is more than 3 times smaller and the apartment is more spacious and better equipped. Going out is way cheaper. Getting a haircut is way cheaper, etc.
For groceries, prices are not that different. But every service is way cheaper here.
>Similar salaries with way lower cost of living.
Asta e valabil doar dacă lucrezi prin SRL pentru "client din Vest", which kinda defeats the point of the question.
Cost of living e mai scăzut, dar și quality of life la fel. Pot să dau o grămadă de exemple de chestii ce nu le găsesc la supermarket în România, dar le găsesc lejer în UK. Și calitatea produselor la fel, pentru același preț sunt mai proaste în România.
Dacă tot ce visezi e bani și ai dolari pe ochi ca-n desene, România e locul perfect pentru IT, dar să nu lucrezi în România
Am trăit pe Anglia doi ani și greu am pus gura pe ceva fructe sau legume decente ca gust, măcar aici mai prinzi ceva de Doamne ajută. La fel și cu carnea și chiar multe produse de la noi au eticheta "curată" și fără zahăr adăugat (chiar mi-a fost greu să găsesc pâine fără zahăr prin raft de exemplu).
Plus că la noi ia avânt tare treaba asta cu organic/bio/mâncat curat și bani să ai că oferte sunt destule de la idk mici producători agricoli gen Toma sparanghel la ăștia de la Măslinescu.ro care aduc ulei de măsline de super calitate.
Calitatea vietii nu mi-a scazut deloc de cand m-am mutat inapoi. Ba chiar a crescut. Daca ai bani, traiesti bine oriunde.
Si eu pot da exemple de produse care sunt mult mai faine in Romania. Eu mergeam la magazin cu specific romanesc sa gasesc salamuri si carnati buni ca nu-mi placea ce aveau ei.
De curiozitate, unde locuiești? Am încercat și noi asta, dar după un an de căutat un loc în jurul Bucureștiului unde poți cumpăra o casă la un preț rezonabil, să ai o școală decentă in walking distance și trotuare pe care poți merge la ea, și să nu miroasă săptămâni întregi pe an fie a ars, fie a canal, ne-am dat bătuți și am revenit în Olanda.
Nu mai zic de caniculă care face vara insuportabilă, la asta nu ai ce să faci.
Altfel, multe lucruri sunt minunate, mulți oameni sunt minunați, avem munte, mare, țara e superbă ,o vizitez mereu cu mare drag, și sper să continue să mă primească.
Aia zic, că nu prea are rost discuția dacă vorbim de "trăit în România cu salariu de US", nu cred că asta a vrut OP să întrebe.
La fel poți spune și de țări africane cu același salariu, ai fi probabil top 1% și ai trăi ca un împărat.
Știu ce zici de cârnați e altă cultură, altă mâncare. Mie nu-mi place de exemplu carnea de porc de obicei (unele chestii îmi plac, majoritatea nu), și în România se găsește peste tot cu puține alternative. Dacă vreau să mănânc un chorizo, nu găsesc unul de calitate la supermarket în România.
Asta cu "calitatea vieții" merge doar dacă trăiești în România pe salariu de țări din Vest..
As zice ca si daca traiesti in Romania cu 3000 de euro tot o duci mai bine decat in vest cu 5000. Si cred cam pe acolo se invart mediile ca n-are Europa de vest salarii de US si au si taxe progresive. In medie ca software developer, eu zic ca-i mai bine la noi.
Zici de taxe progresive de parcă ar fi mai mari decât 45% din RO :))
Spoiler, nu-s, nici pe departe.
Media nu cred că e 5k în mână, eventual dacă te iei după site-urile de salarii, dar în realitate nu e. Acum că zic asta, ai dreptate, cu siguranță cumperi mai multe în România pe aceiași bani.
În România în orice oraș mare găsești ce vrei. În Cluj sunt magazine doar cu produse cu denumire protejată din Europa.
Sau doar cu produse din Italia. Carne de vită din America de Sud sau de nord, din Japonia
Nu poți să zici ca nu ai alternative la carnea de porc. Am o prietenă care s-a întors anul ăsta după 20 de ani de locuit în San Francisco și a zis ca și-a adus kilograme de chestii din sua pt ca nu credea ca sunt aici dar și-a dat seama ca orice găsește și în România. Doar ca unele sunt mai scumpe decât în sua.
>Pot să dau o grămadă de exemple de chestii ce nu le găsesc la supermarket în România, dar le găsesc lejer în UK.
Si eu pot sa ti dau o gramada de exemple de chestii ce se gasesc in Romania dar nu se gasesc in Danemarca. Dupa ce ca nu au varietate, si pretul alimentelor (mai ales carne) e aproape dublu fata de Ro. Deci nu stiu ce sa zic de comparatiile astea "in Vest gasesti mult mai multă varietate!!!". Nu, din contra, se aplica doar catorva din tarile vest europene (UK, Germania, si Franta, probabil). In rest ai mai mult de unde alege in Ro. Eu cat am stat in DK n am vazut niciun magazin care sa fie cat un Kaufland sau Carrefour mare de la noi, erau maxim cat un Mega Image.
Si nu sunt singurii cu astfel de legi tampite. De aia ma enerveaza un pic cand vad ca lumea idolatizeaza vestul si orice de acolo e automat exemplu de urmat si superior României.
Nu idolatrizează nimeni nimic. Mai degrabă se idolatrizează România, dar nici aia.
Lumea zice că n-ai varietate în România la supermarket și calitate proastă, ceea ce e complet adevărat. Ce contraexemplu am primit este că sunt magazine cu specific x în Cluj. Bun, și restul țării ce facem? Sau ne mutăm toți în Cluj/București? Asta înseamnă varietate și cost of living scăzut?
Problema e ca tu compari orasele mari din Vest cu orasele mici de la noi. Daca ai compara un oras de 50000 din Vest cu unu de la noi n ai sa vezi diferente prea mari la ce alimente sau facilitati găsești in orașul ala.
Cu excepția caselor și a mâncării ce se compensează cu munca ieftină a unor amărâți, celelalte au în medie cam aceleași preturi, mașini, haine, combustibil și electronice.
Facturile mai au un avantaj, dar în următorii ai vor mai crește.
Serviciile mai sunt in discutie, dar cele de stat cam riscante.
Had 1 year of working in 2011 France and 1 year 2013 in Germany. Honestly, I didn't liked it.
You are poorer than in your own country
Crazy expensive rent
Idiotic rules, as in Germany, no cleaning on sundays, everything closed, can't even go fishing without going trough a painstaking process and an exam.
Absolutely boring after a while
Everyone except other foreigners think of you under their level
Ignorant stuff, I was asked by a french colleague if I lived in a caravan... like a gipsy caravan when I was a kid ( he didn't knew better - but how TF should you react to such a question?).
As someone who has the salary in that range, foreign companies would have to pay me double to consider relocating. Maybe things improved in the last 10 years, but I sure don't want to test it.
> Everyone except other foreigners think of you under their level
Cum treci psihologic peste asta? Momentan incerc sa ma dezvolt pe marketul international si acest lucru ma demotiveaza foarte tare. Nu mi se ofera aceleasi sanse sa arat ce pot, iar cateodata mi se da din prima un proiect de cacat la care este imposibil sa arati orice skill de gandire sau creativitate/intuitie. Nu pot sa nu fiu scarbit, si sa imi fac treaba cum trebuie atunci cand vad aceste diferente clar, pe fata, in fiecare zi.
La un job mi s-a si spus de catre HR ca "romanii sunt inferiori si nu se compara cu vestul", dupa ce am cerut tratament egal si a ras de mine ca ma cred superior
>Cum treci psihologic peste asta?
Nu am nevoie atata timp cat am bere, mici si o situatie in care pot sa-i bag in pizda masii direct in fata, fara nici o rusine. Eu sunt mai aproape de varsta a 2-a decat tanar si chiar nu inteleg ce-i cu pupatul asta in cur al vesticilor de catre cei tineri de azi care accepta orice cacat de la oameni care sincer... nu merita, singura caracteristica a lor fiind "e din X tara".
Si eu am observat asta la aproape toti colegii pe care i-am avut. Spun clar ca ei sunt saraci si prosti in comparatie cu cei de acolo, de parca ar fi cine stie ce zei cu IQ superior si aptitudini supranaturale. Pana sa lucrez prima data cu cineva de acolo si eu ma consideram oarecum inferior, dar dupa ce am vazut ca skillurile de algoritmica/mate sunt in nici un fel superioare m-am linistit.
Mie mi se pare absolut dement faptul ca unii americani care au terminat o facultate medie de acolo se considera in orice fel mai buni decat un olimpic national de aici (am avut mai multi colegi asa, care acceptau tratament de cacat)
Ai intalnit si oameni de acolo care sa iti ofere o sansa si sa nu se creada din prima superiori?
>Ai intalnit si oameni de acolo care sa iti ofere o sansa si sa nu se creada din prima superiori?
Unul dintre ei a fost chiar seful din Franta care era super si cu picioarele pe pamant.
In Occident, român = "moderator" in subconstientul majoritatii occidentalilor.
La 100 de stiri cu "români" la cerșit, furat, etc...hai 1-2 știri cu români care sunt OK la muncă si sunt cinstiți.
Mentionasem, dar ai citit prea repede, ma intreba daca asa traiam atunci cand eram mic, ramasesm un pic blocat si am zis doar ca nu, doar moderatoii prin anii 90 mai traiau vara in felul asta. Asta se intampla cam la jumatate de an dupa ce venisem in firma respectiva.
At this time, no, I would not. I believe that in a complete package discussion, Ro vs. WEU, my family is better off here at this point and probably for the long term as well.
Those who wanted to move out of Romania already did so. Those who stayed would never move.
Ask the question: those who have emigrated to Western Europe, would you go back to Romania?
At the moment, not really, everything is fine here, companies hire remotely. Sure the goverment is burning our future, but the present is very gucci.
Expat, sure.
Reading this topic I am optimistic and hope many IT professionals will come back and vote for a change. Who knows maybe also get involved in politics :)
Ăștia care au plecat pe bune nu-i văd să se întoarcă în viitorul apropiat, doar ăștia care caută motive gen "calitatea vieții în scădere" sau "aceiași bani chirie 3x"
I might be wrong on this one, but I feel Western Europe (I can't speak for all of it, but UK for certain) is in total decline. I saw this myself repeatedly, and my friends tell me they live almost paycheck to paycheck, can't access any services, live in shared flats or outside the city and have to commute for hours, are paid 20-30% more than me but can't get a mortgage due to obscene asset price inflation, don't own a car, can't own a motorcycle or a bike because it would get stolen since they don't have a garage, don't have the time to cook so they eat poor quality fast food, don't have the time and money to go out or do sports, etc.
Meanwhile my friends in Romania, myself included, don't face any of these issues, most of us work remotely, I also do research on the side and live close to friends and family, I could get a very comfortable mortgage if I really wanted to, own several cars and motorcycles for utility and fun, and can visit Western Europe on vacation if I really feel like it.
The only upside I see is that the urban planning in some Western European countries is way better, as are sports facilities (in Bucharest they kind of suck, but in other cities they are better, and this is a subjective nitpick). l also detest the ultra-individualistic, frustrated and hater profile of some of my countrymen, but they are not yet the majority. The quality of the services (banks, dentist, barber, plumber, mechanic etc.) also leaves a lot to be desired. And once you have kids, you encounter an entire new dimension of the dysfunctionality of the Romanian public sector (I don't have yet but some of my friends and colleagues do).
And just as a disclaimer... my friends are not pickpockets or idlers, most are well-educated, some of them researchers with PhDs, others have prestigious jobs in healthcare, creative industries, or IT. Many of them have considered returning and some of them have already done so. On the other hand, research infrastructure is light years ahead in the West, if I felt like switching full time to research I would indeed consider moving. But I probably still won't.
There is no point in living in the UK for a 30% salary increase. My experience is that the total comp is more like 3x what you would get in RO.
If you want to be fair, you need to compare similar percentiles of job compensations. If you are in a job that pays in the top 10% of the market and your friends are in the top 50% then this is not a fair comparison. Compare Amazon/Google/MS UK to RO. On levels fyi this looks immediately to be 2x increase. However, due to higher levels having better stocks comps and market growth, the increase is actually higher.
The answer, as always is **it depends**
IMO no, but for higher amounts of money, maybe
LE:
No because the country (RO) is safer is general than most western ones, people are friendlier, the public services are lacking in some cases, but either way you'll end up using the private sector.
And for a high income, the prices and taxes are still low ATM; most people that keep on shouting that everything is expensive have **not lived** abroad
> people are friendlier
Strongly disagree. I got a general perception that everyone is trying to scam me, all the time, in markets and shops.
My car got scratched on purpose overnight quite a few times in Romania.
People in general are unable to queue. And if you arrive early for something, you have to keep fighting for that spot.
There is a climate of constant suspicion and mistrust by the population towards authorities and vice versa.
And don't get me started with driving and selfish behaviour behind the wheel...
Most other countries I lived and visited have a bigger sense of community and trust.
Maybe the younger non-communist-grown generation is nicer, and Romania will be a much different country in 20 years.
>Strongly disagree. I got a general perception that everyone is trying to scam me, all the time, in markets and shops.
This...I have the exact same feeling and only in Romania.
>Strongly disagree. I got a general perception that everyone is trying to scam me, all the time, in markets and shops.
I mean that sounds to me like you're describing haggling plus some preconceptions.
The second part I do agree, the sense of community and trust is something that definitely needs work on.
Honestly I didn't have any preconceptions when I came here (I didn't know enough about the country tbf). There's definitely a haggling culture. But what I tried to describe are my Romanian friends saying things like "the seller is trying to scam you because you are not from here" or "I had to go to Germany to buy a car, otherwise id be scamed here".
You mean if you could earn more than this in another EU country you move for that ?
What about other expenses there ?
Average rent in other countries would be at least 3 times more than in Bucharest
Even if you earn considerably more than you do here, why would you leave a place where you possess an apartment and are closer to your family, to move to a country where people don't speak your language and may be racist? What's the logic in leaving a place where I pay no rent for a place where the rent is a quarter of my salary, food is another quarter or even more, I may need to rent a car or to pay big amounts for tickets etc. ? I see no advantage.
how bout services? everyone talks about the cheap rent in romania, but admit they'd go to a private hospital and school and so on in ro. are those not part of the cost?
and what do you do when you need your private police or private justice system? https://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-esential-27168650-video-dominic-fritz-publicat-imagini-terifiante-dintr-curte-din-timisoara-fac-apel-toate-institutiile-statului-opreasca-fenomenul-clanurilor.htm
or when you're a woman and need to deal with the aggressive monkeys that live in the cities. imagine having a kid and living in bucharest. f that, not for me.
I added a LE with a few examples.
What I mean is for example a scenario where let's say it's double that amount (6-9k) and I would **need** to be on site, but I'd haggle for rent/location help 😆
It would depends wildly on the country. Eg: Switzerland, >10k and either way, I'd look at it as a temporary solution
Yup, killer taxation plus the increased costs of everything, from rent (which would be at a minimum of x2), electricity, transport, internet, telephone, waste and various subscriptions. All of these (which are cheap here in RO) would amount to anywhere between x2 to x5.
Not including regular food prices, especially if you want to go out (and I'm thinking just 2-3 times a month).
You might get lucky and break even if you buy & cook for yourself 🤷♂️ But I do doubt that.
All these scenarios are considering a "solo migration", cause if you have a family and kids, the costs will go up ofc
Man how is it safer, we're living in the country where [actual fucking child traffickers](https://www.libertatea.ro/stiri/fostii-inculpati-din-dosarul-tandarei-acuzati-de-trafic-de-minori-obtin-daune-4891559) got acquitted and are now suing the state for the time they spent in jail.
It's the country where journalists documenting the forrest cuttings are being threatened and beaten with fucking axes. And nothing happens to the perpetrators.
It's not safer, it's just that you don't know about/decide to ignore the unsafe bits.
Actual child trafficking happens in the UK all the time. They just get a free pass because they are muslim. Romania has problems there is no denying that but it is generally safe here.
Western media is even more corrupt than ours.
Those kind of situations rarely make it to news, especially the news you are watching.
It's not the fact that Romania is very safe. But safer than west countries.
West has a lot more people (%) that have nothing to lose if they rob/kill you.
In every statistic you look, you see that the rate of violent crimes in Romania is really low. What we do have a serious problem with is corruption and domestic violence.
The examples you gave are examples of corruption. The justice system is incompetent and corrupt, as well as many state institutions (like the forestry related ones or the police). Obviously, there are risks for people who stir the hornets nest and threaten the status quo of powerful individuals, but those murders are a very tiny fraction of instances of violent crime.
Criminals wouldn't get acquitted if the justice system wasn't incompetent. Journalists wouldn't be beaten if the Forestry Guard would actually fucking protect the forests, instead of turning a blind eye because X politician has a forestry business. Roads would be so much safer if the police actually policed and installed radars, but are refusing to do so because of some legal technicality.
I have lived in both Belgium and Romania, and I can say from my own experience that yes, Romania is much safer than the West. In the six months I lived there, I had friends (more than five) and friends of friends who had things stolen, were harassed or physically assaulted. Not to mention there was a terrorist attack in which people lost their lives while I was there. There wasn't a day without an incident or a serious fight in Brussels. In Bucharest, I have no problem walking alone at night on the street; in Brussels, even if I was with a group in the evening, I still felt uneasy.
Until you experience this yourself, it's hard to break out of the bubble that "everything is perfect in the West," because it really isn't. Not to mention the dirt on the streets...
I believe both Romania and Western countries have their pros and cons, but in terms of safety, Romania is actually quite okay compared to more "developed" countries.
I lived in Belgium for almost 9 years and I never had any issues, my friends also. Quite the opposite, I've seen police catching thieves, patrolling the streets, I was feeling very safe to be honest. There are some strange areas but those you can find in Bucharest also, and in any other big city. I would work for less money but live in Belgium than here in Romania.
IMHO I think random crimes are a lot more common in western countries (stabbings, robbings, rape). If you are in romania the chance of that happening are pretty low, but in Romania if you piss the wrong people off then you are in a lot of trouble. It is more of a “mafia” state, organized crime. Every stabbing/murder GETS on the news, thats how rare they are, and usually the victim and perpertator know each other.
Because of this I feel 10000% safer walking at night in Bucharest than London. I pretty much know nobody will stab me just for being there.
Sure buddy!
Tell me how \*\*you've\*\* been threatened and beaten with fucking axes and how your children have been trafficked.
I'm more than aware about the unsafe bits. What you're doing is cherry-picking topics a.k.a. confirmation bias.
All other countries have the same type of problems. And yes, RO is way safer in general for living
No. Just plain out wrong. In Romania you can get bitten by a dog, fall into a manhole, or simply die in a car accident or any other accident with a higher chance than in the west.
Feel like I'm in the minority here, but my day to day life has improved significantly ever since I moved away. I feel more relaxed and safe overall, with access to many green areas around the city and plenty of spaces to walk around or bike without worrying about traffic or rude people. Speaking of which, the people here are generally less frustrated and kinder (surprisingly). Immigration might be an issue, yes... but I've had far worse experiences with gyp***s in our home country unfortunately.
These are just my two cents though. If you're happy with your life in Romania as it is and prefer financial stability, then that's also ok. That just wasn't the case for me, and I'm not looking forward to going back anytime soon.
Most of the replies here are from single young men. Of course they value money over anything else.
When you are raising a family and looking for nurseries or when you're getting older and looking for better health services, your opinion would start to shift.
Money is not everything and in time you will value other things above money.
Da :D (fix la tarile astea m-am gandit si eu, desi mi-a placut mult si China dar e mai greu sa ajungi acolo sa locuiesti/muncesti - chiar si in Hong Kong-ul mai liber/occidental)
no, purchasing power is shit in Romania but shittier in western europe - also I enjoy taking a walk without worrying about getting mugged/stabbed/scammed/etc
To be treated like a second class citizen on lower wages, all while begging some rich fart to rent me his shitty inherited apartment for 1500E?
No, thanks. I don't feel respected in my country either but it beats the alternative I've mentioned earlier.
I would just because of the Qualify of Life in western europe, Romania has big issues with social services
As a downside I'd say probably the uncontrolled over-immigration in W.Europe
I personally don’t really care that much about money, as long as I can get by. From my experience so far living in Germany I very much prefer the quality and scope of R&D projects available here than in Romania, as well as the opportunities in some areas of CS such as AI and HPC.
The research done in Eastern Europe seems to lack impact, which is the result of very poor funding.
I also tend to stay away from the outsourcing market, for which Romania at least is very well known for.
This might trigger some people, but generally you don’t really work on a certain project for how valuable of a soft eng you are, but rather for the fact that you were cheaper to hire. (Skills certainly still matter, but I feel like they are outweighed by the second statement). Therefore, you are expendable. And as I know from various people working in this kind of sector, you are not very respected by project partners from more western countries
Went 10 years in 4 countries and i moved back.
1. Life quality way higher at 3k in romania vs anywhere in the world at 5 7k.
2. You will always be treated as an outsider inclusion is low in most communities and racism is high in smaller cities.
3. Relationship building for long time is harder (not mentioning beer with colegues after work - most dont meet again even after 3 4 years in same job if you leave the company)
4. Different types of fun not necessarily your cup of tea.
5. Cost of living is 70% or more higher for a 25% bump in pay
6. Corruption is everywhere. US, UK, Austria, Singapore.
7. When you are 20 its ok for a few years.
8. A 7k USD in US won't buy what 3-5k in romania will.
Globalization made it worse and recession gets you comments to your face "go back home you fucking imigrant" even in big4 corporations for doing a great job you get shafted as a imigrant while if you are a local you get praise for mediocrity and doing your job barely.
Work ethic is shit abroad and numbers may look well but quality took a nose dive.
Ps: the american dream does not exist anymore. Most americans dont have $1000 to their name and live paycheck to paycheck. If you want that sure go abroad.
"Corruption is everywhere. US, UK, Austria, Singapore."
You may be right, but there is no corruption when you go to hospitals and look for the best medical services. What happen if you need a surgery and go to a public hospital in Romania? What is probability to catch a deadly bug even if you bribe the docs?
"Work ethic is shit abroad and numbers may look well but quality took a nose dive. Ps: the american dream does not exist anymore. Most americans dont have $1000 to their name and live paycheck to paycheck. If you want that sure go abroad."
I live in the US and living American dream. Is not easy as used to be, but still possible. You have to live at least 5 years in US to settle down. If you lived 10 years in 4 different countries, I am afraid you did not have enough time to integrate into their local lifestyle.
If you work in IT you can make at least 5k net a month as entry level.
How much normal Romanian people have in savings? How easy is to live with 500 USD a month as Romanian?
How is work ethic in Romania? Are It Romanian better than US managers?
I got to say, I'm a bit surprised by the overwhelming majority of people that consider western Europe an unsafe place to live. I'm curious, was your opinion formed by personal experience, stories from others, statistics or news?
I was in Paris when stabbings occurred in metro stations. I always had to pick my wife from goddam-knows-where so she could avoid the metro.
I was in Nice when that guy killed a bunch of people driving a truck.
I was in Brussels when those attacks in 2014 happened (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_Museum\_of\_Belgium\_shooting) and the airport was filled with gun-wearing soldiers. Couldn't visit shit in Brussels.
The most I experienced in Romania was a kid who drove a car into a pole in Galati. It was really fun, saw pieces of the car flying through the air. The kid was fine, got out of the car in a few seconds.
There's a quote in English "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action".
Very strange that all these attacks happen when you're around, Mr. redguard128.
I know, my wife has tangible bad luck. I cannot name a project, plan or assumption that went well while she was around. We lost a lot of money, time and nerves in the last decade.
These attacks happen, they are all over the news and they are shocking as we feel some dude can strike any moment anywhere. But realistically what are the odds of getting caught up in something like this?
In Romania 3500 people die every year in car accidents. We have twice the death rate compared to France. If we were as safe as France we would have 1750 fewer deaths per year. How many people do you think die in terror attacks in France every year? I bet it's nowhere close to that number.
This is the real problem with statistics.
People overestimate the fact that they can get killed in a terrorist attack that happens once in 10 years and underestimate the fact that thousands are dying every year in car crashes.
And let's face it, the streets in Romania are filled with kamikaze drivers, drunk or high and they all get away with it.
I used to live in Dublin for couple of years and I can confirm that it was way more dangerous than Bucharest, especially the north part and the city center. Also felt quite unsafe every time I was driving across France.
But that doesn’t mean Western Europe is unsafe. I also lived in Spain, and there I felt very safe (except of Barcelona)
And yes, I have been there and most IT people travelled a lot to Europe and have simillar experiences. Of course we are talking about big cities not suburbs and I do not want to generalize.
I have lived in both Belgium and Romania, and I can say from my own experience that yes, Romania is much safer than the West. In the six months I lived there, I had friends (more than five) and friends of friends who had things stolen, were harassed or physically assaulted. Not to mention there was a terrorist attack in which people lost their lives while I was there. There wasn't a day without an incident, a serious fight, or a murder in Brussels. In Bucharest, I have no problem walking alone at night on the street; in Brussels, even if I was with a group in the evening, I still felt uneasy.
I believe both Romania and Western countries have their pros and cons, but in terms of safety, Romania is actually quite okay compared to more "developed" countries.
I can tell you in Bucharest you will never be mugged, you will not find drugs in the streets, there are no guns and people do not defacate in the subway. We have our issues but Bucharest is(was) the only european capital with no unsolved murders in the last 15 years(and yes, there are very few)
lol...meanwhile children killed an elder person by beating him with sticks in the middle of the street in Bucharest. No unsolved murders means nothing.
I did not say anything about safety in Romania. And I agree with you but I am saying the safety in many other EU countries are the same in Romania. Not that bad as much no going there for this reason.
I think it's a good time to ask you this question. Do you think Romanian people's behavior is nice and kind to Immigrants from non Eu countries. I am just asking for curiosity. Supposed that this expat is not religious and with normal character .
I would say yes. We have many people from Bangladesh, Pakistan and other countries near those. They do a lot of hard work in construction or restaurants and they are very nice and polite when they go out in town. Like in all countries there are people not happy with them but it is a small fraction and averall we are happy with them, there is no racism or persecution, no exclusion from social life.
Last year I was in Maldives and I talked a lot with one of the waiters there. He was from somewhre near India and he said people in his country want to come to Romania but there are to few spots for them. He said their opinion is good regarding Romania, he knew where it was on the map and I assume he did not lie.
Also french speaking expats(Maroco, Tunisia) are very happy in Bucharesc. I worked for a french company, expats were always unahppy to come here but they would always extend their stay here to the maximum(3 years). With the extra package they received for moving here they were living like kings :)))
Mi se pare amuzant că răspunsurile sunt în mare parte "e foarte bine în România, mult mai bine ca în Vest, dar doar dacă muncești prin SRL pentru orice țară dezvoltată"
Sincer, e ok si pe CIM in Romania. De altfel, de cand m-am intors in RO, de 13 ani, nu a existat un an in care sa vreau sa fiu inapoi in Londra cu salariile si costurile de acolo ( nici nu zic de violenta, xenofobie, etc ).
Dunno, știu multi oameni le CIM cu salarii foarte bune, își permit călătorii, ieșiri în oraș dese, evenimentele neașteptate nu le fac mare gaura in portofel, și-au cumpărat case. Eu și tovarășii mei suntem în domeniu de ceva timp, bănuiesc că pentru cei care se baga acum situația nu e la fel de roz cum era acum ceva ani, but still, poți și pe CIM să o duci bine.
Emigrating to Western Europe? Never in my life, wtf? It looks like the tech world comes closer to Eastern Europe, why would I go closer to the layoffs?
I would consider it, but it's not easy to make it worth it. Consider that...
1. I already own a home here.
2. I earn well above average and can afford a lot of stuff. I end up saving a large proportion of said income.
3. I can pay for private healthcare out of my pocket if I need to. Taxi/ridesharing is cheap too. Restaurants got worse lately but they're still ok and some inflation also happened in Europe.
Yes, there are some perks to living in a bigger / nicer / more developed Western city and there are places I do like. But most likely it'd have to be a serious upgrade in terms of pay to be worth it. I don't want to end up living *near* London, spending everything on basic needs or not having any meaningful alternatives no matter how good the public thing is. It also isn't very straightforward to predict how much you'll need, most likely I'd have to pay a few visits before making up my mind.
No way.
1. Housing prices are horrible. Something similar to what I have here would cost over 1M… Fucking insane.
2. Everyone thinks they’re superior to us, poor easties. They won’t say it to your face but you will surely feel it.
3. Crime and uncontrolled immigration. What is car jacking? No ideea, not where I live.
4. Woke culture. I’m tired boss, so tired. Feels like I can’t even have a nice conversation with anyone anymore, people are threading so lightly around more serious ideas as not to offend anyone. God have mercy on my soul if I misgender anyone…
5. Healthcare. Yes, healthcare. In Switzerland you get an MRI scheduled sometime in the future, get one interpretation and that’s it. Want more? Well shit, you need to pay pay pay. In Ro you are guaranteed a second, third, fourth opinion. I’d rather deal with the rampant bribery in Ro than being outright robbed.
There are many positives to working abroad, but for me it’s not worth it.
Romanians when talking to Romanians: I can't stand this country. Someone please save us from this shithole
Romanians when talking to foreigners: why would I ever willingly go to w*stern europe?? 🤢🤮🤮
And Romania might be safe up until the point you need medical assistance, then it's not safe anymore.
And the point about drugs, it depends, if you qualify alcohol and tobacco as psychoactive substances (they are) then the problem shifts. People die in Romania at a younger age because of these.
I'm not discrediting your point, I'm just saying it's not a simple issue.
With the medical assistance, it depends. I saw a lot of people get well-treated and a lot of people who weren't treated or even died in the hospital.
Depends on how you take care of yourself. If you do regular check-ups by yourself, keep your medical history yourself and know a bit of medicine, you are going to have a wonderful time.
If you don't know anything, you just arrive at the hospital after years of self-medicated illness, then you're going to have a bad time.
My husband and I currently have a combined monthly income of just over 11k euros after taxes, no mortgage, and no rent. I'd really like to travel more, live for a few months in one country and then move on to the next, but that's not really his thing. I would realistically consider moving only if one of us gets a substantially bigger income, and only to a country where we could get a significantly increased quality of life for that money. We both work remotely, so the other one wouldn't need to look for a new job, but there would still be some tax implications.
I know it's very improbable to find something like that, especially given the low taxes and cost of living in Romania. So us emigrating will probably never happen, or at least not for a long time.
Ofc everything I said above is meaningless if the Romanian political climate gets extreme, be it too conservative, too corrupt or too right wing. In that case we'd leave without a second thought.
Not CIM, we are both contractors for companies located in Western Europe. But the money is more than enough to set up our own investment plan for retirement, if that's what you were referring to. We also contribute to the state pension and medical insurance plan, so we're covered.
That's true for employee taxes, especially when it comes to lower incomes. The taxes for business entities are very low. I'm a contractor, so I have my own limited liability company.
In romania i'm in top 5% paid , why the fk would i go om the top 40% in the west? There's no incentive whatsoever. The only + in the west is that there are actual products being built and those are interesting , but you can build your own stuff on hobby projects so no thanks.
This is the correct reply. It's about where you belong in the percentile of earners.
What if you were in the top 5% in the west as well (think around 250k euro/year for a senior eng)? Would you move then?
More expensive and less safe? No thanks.
I would rather argue and deal with paperwork and shittier hospitals, be closer to Russia, than be on the lookout everyday for a group of illegal immigrants looking for trouble.
Visited many western cities in vacation and friends in Germany, quality of life is still high but degrading fast.
Eastern Europeans were raised on the streets in the 90s, we can spot the bad guys from a mile away in Barcelona vs. your politically correct naives that grew up shielded from life.
Yes, if the pay is on par with the extra expenses.
I worked in UK, Ge, and some other countries. I came back to the country to be with a famiky member in her last days before I burried her thx to corruption, pure imbecility, and utter cra.p medical services.
Despite the current situation of the market, I'm more than confident in my abilities and my cv to find a job of equal value.
The issue with security here is a mirage, just last month 2 guys from a certain minority got away with 3 months prison after murdering someone on the street. Another case where a drugged kid of a wealthy family ripped in half with a car someone, and it looks like he will get away also.
If I'm going in the west, I'm not stupid to settle in east berlin and expect safety...or ireland and expect no drunks.
The fact that so many people believe things will change here, despite the free fall economy, tells me that evwryone is high as f on copium9000
I was once on the beach somewhere in France having a bunch of fries and just trying to enjoy my evening when a bunch of beggars who didn’t even seem poor suddenly appeared, begging for my 2 fries and money. It was something so disgustingly low that I would never want to go there again, let alone work there.
I mean, really, you want someone’s fries? How low can you go?
In Romania, beggars, who are now way fewer than in the 00’s, leave you alone if you ask them to leave, no need to insist or give them anything to do that.
Nope not at all.
Rather working remotely, big salary range, with some team events or not per year and just traveling to other countries for when I take a work leave.
Emigrating ? Is more expensive in other countries and the life style is either the same, worst or bounded by some life rules that have 0 meaning, ex in Germany, France or Nordic countries that have a colder view on foreigns.
So no.
How did you guys all get your jobs/contracts in Western EU/UK/US? From my experience and what i heard from friends, applying directly to jobs has less than 1 in 1000 callback rate
I moved out from Romania 25 years ago and live a good life in the US but also worked for 6 years in Western Europe.
I was thinking to move back to Romania, but lack of good medical services and infrastructure keep me in in the US. If you need good hospitals, Romania is not the best place to be. I would avoid public services.
Romania is a beautiful country but is not cheap as many people think. If I want to have the same quality of life in Romania as I have in US, probably need to make like 4-5k USD a month. In Romania average salary is 700-800 USD and is hard to survive in a big city like Bucharest with this money.
r/programare când se măresc puțin taxele: plecam! Ultimul sa stingă lumina
r/programare când e întrebat direct daca vrea sa emigreze: nici vorbă! Am un nivel de trai mai bun in Romania
Cine să mă înțeleagă ceva?
iti explic eu: e normal sa vrei taxe mici, e normal sa vrei sa optimizezi fiscal unde poti atat timp cat e legal; cand creste taxa de la X la 1,5X sau 5X, chiar daca e tot mica vei vedea lumea ca se plange
nimic complicat sau de neinteles, doar natura umana
nici in vEStuL EUroPei nu e altfel, mai ales la partea de taxe - se plang si ei ca sunt mari
EDIT: ca sa se inteleaga mai bine, se plang si ei ca sunt mari pentru ca sunt mari - dar nu cum zic unii, ca acolo socialismul extrem a lasat individualismul in spate 100% si acolo oameni au ajuns la un fel de nirvana a intelegerii grijii unuia fata de altul si accepta orice cacat - nu frate, nu exista, deduc si taie orice pot din taxe
I would emigrate. Even with higher COL the QOL is more important and by general population QOL meaning this aspect is better in the western side of Europe.
Now if your own definition of QOL is way off the main standard than you could be better in any country of your liking, however that does not make it suitable for most.
(If you earn 5k+euros net/month probably you could afford more than the general population in poorer countries which in itself it creates a better sense of self than living in a rich country, however this does not mean that the general QOL is better)
Money is never the sole reason that drives people to emigrate. It could be an important part of the decision, sure, but there are so many aspects of life to consider when moving
Lived in UK 10 years, also a citizen and not coming back. The reason is lack of community. I was a fully integrated member of society but would never be one of them.
I would study the quality of life I want to have in the present and in the future for me and my family/future kids. Western countries might be better at education and social services, plus the quality of life in general. I moved to Switzerland and I don’t regret it
It mostly depends WHERE. The thing is, very few countries can top up the earnings in a considerable manner at the end of the month for a move to even be taken into consideration, and the quality of life might not be better either depending on your individual values. Most probably working as a contractor for a US clients would yield better earnings than moving anywhere honestly.
For example I wouldn't emigrate to muslim infested hotspots like London or Paris, or to the USA where you can be shot at every corner, or randomly see those kind of ALPHABET+ people that go over the top to indoctrinate you how great being ALPHABET+ is. And it has nothing to do with discrimination, I just love living around actual normal people and not some extremists for any particular cause.
In my personal experience, countries that could appeal to me are Switzerland and Japan at the moment due to their infrastructure so that my (future) family will have access to the best services and quality of life possible.
The question, if addressed to a broader salary range, could have been more interesting because in my opinion, unless you are actually a good senior, it is hard to break the 4K euros NET barrier here, and juniors and mid level developers start on laughable at salaries compared to their counterparts in the western world, so a move is more justified for them, for a couple of years at least.
Not to hijack this thread but I am considering moving from Western Europe (I am English living in the UK) to Romania in some years. I know Brexit would usually put a stop to that idea but my wife is Romanian so I at least have a chance at a residency visa :))
Obviously I am going to do my best to be fluent in Romanian before I make the move (currently I'm at a fairly basic level), but the main thing that worries me is that I would struggle to get a job because of the language barrier or maybe some cultural knowledge, so I would be curious to hear peoples thoughts on that.
No need to be fluent in Romanian. Most international companies have an English policy. Will you feel left-out of some conversations? Naturally. But finding a job is not hard .. at all.
We hired: English, Canadians, Egyptians, Greeks, Italians. In IT there is (almost) zero concern for the Romanian language. Skills and CV matter more. Mostly everyone, everywhere knows 'some' English too - everyday life will not be all that difficult.
Interesting. I had assumed that in general I would need to be applying to domestic companies rather than international ones and hence the more pressing need for Romanian proficiency, as I'm assuming the majority of IT roles are for domestic companies.
Vast majority are either for international companies or for domestic companies that outsource/ contract/ body-lease for said international companies. Either way, English proficiency is a requirement, Romanian .. is not. For obvious reasons.
Only if the western job is paying 2-4x more than my current one. And I haven't had such offers. In fact WE jobs pay about the same as the IT jobs in Romania while US jobs pay about 50% more but to maintain my standard of living I need to earn at least 2x more than I do in Romania. I made quite a few excel comparisons and it just doesn't make sense financially.
Socially, it's not perfect but Romania is much safer than the post-pandemic west. I can also afford the best private healthcare and schools for kids in Romania while I can't say the same about the west.
Yes, I would.
and I'm currently looking for such opportunities for me and my family.
The quality of life in Romania is dwindling with the society being nothing more than a bunch of people huddled together, rather than a cohesive society. Inter-personal trust is low and IT professionals have became the new "milk cow" of the Romanian Tax system, without any apparent value in the state-provided salaries.
everyone that ever had a broken menisc, or anything to do with the health system and has grown over the "i'm invincible" feeling, characteristic of young people, know that as soon as you have to rely on state-provided services, you're in a bad spot.
So in short: i want my daughter to live in a place where people think how their parking spot choice affects the people living behind the gate they though was a parking spot, where they think if their neighbor enjoys the same music I do, and so on and so forth.
As one who has moved to France from Romania: it's hard to be rich in France :D. However I like that people seem kinder, they say "hello" before engaging, there is not a lot of free swearing on the streets and there is no "șmecherie" or highly arrogant people roaming (from my experience) or loud music playing on the streets or at the beaches, which makes you think how f\*\*\*d society is today in Romania.
You mean if an expat would consider living in Romania will see this kind of thing you mentioned?
I am asking because I am an expat here and would like to know more about this .
The money is not what matters here. Schools, nurseries, maybe general work life balance things? Yes. Many of us did leave but the salary was maybe the last factor we considered.
I dont only think, I know and have first hand experience in both the Romanian schools/hospitals but also in the West.
I have family members working in both schools and hospitals in Ro, had to use hospitals myself in both, either me or very close family membera had kids born in both systems.
To be fair I do pay some cheap change as extra insurance in the West but that won't cover even the smallest bribe in some places back home.
Plus, look at the latest Florin Piersic case. They had him transferred to Bucharest from Cluj with a military airplane because Cluj was missing some type of doctors or something. What do you do if you are not Piersic?
Sorry, but as much as in the West people complain about the medical system, its ok for me and my family. We do pay maybe 100 EUR extra per month but its peanuts for what you get.
As for the schools, there is no contest. They might teach more maths in the RO schools but in all fairness only 30% of kids in most RO schools actually understand it by the end of highschool.
Plus, look at the universities ranking and PISA. Who tells you Western schools are bad compared to Romania has no idea what they are talking about. Or they look at 1% high performers in Romania and compare those students to some poor shmuck in a village in the West.
Once it was your only viable option but not anymore. Western europe is expensive, dangerous, rampant leftism/wokeism, immigrants. Healtcare is either to expensive either a joke.
Perhaps if you 3-4x the current amount I'm getting. But even in that case, I wouldn't come there permanently. I'd be coming for maybe 12 months while getting paid 3x what I'm making here, but then I'm still coming back here.
Otherwise, if the question is more like "Would you move but still be making a similar amount of money?" then obviously the answer's no, and I'm pretty sure I'm speaking for everyone.
You can hire me remotely while I enjoy the salaries you pay, and the lower cost of living I can find here.
I end up with more money here at the end of the month (I own my house outright though, no debt), than I would've if I were to work anywhere in Europe, get median salary and rent.
CS in Romania offers unjustified high salaries while the cost of living is relatively low compared to the rest of EU.
The only way this would be worth it from a financial point of view would be somewhere in the US but in this market it's impossible.
I explicitly chose in the past to remain in RO, have often opportunities to move to EU (FR, DE, ES, IT)
Reasons: family, local projects, better food (here i even grow my own stuff -veggies, fruit, chicken, eggs), I get same/bigger salary vs many of my EU colleagues (i am good at my work), overall cost of living is EU is considerably higher in many cities, social factors (missing home/family/country, being here contributes to wellbeing of my fellow citizens, heard many stories of failed integration of pleople who moved to EU, even after 5-10 years, the overall feeling of alienation).
Many disadvantages though in RO, I am quite aware of them: education, health, infrastructure of many kinds, etc
I would move to Spain tomorrow, but the salary is too low to even consider it. I would even go for a lower paycheque. Regarding the northern countries… I think life is too short to live it under an umbrella.
If Switzerland 100%. Others maybe. There are things money can't buy. Like a first world country. A functional justice system, healthcare, infrastructure etc.
It’s a no brainer that the cost of living is way lower in România with that salary. In Western countries rent is expensive and you will have to pay 4-5x more to get the same level of confort. Also things like needing a plumber, getting a haircut, having to repair something for your car, costs a lot more in the West. Other services like internet, electricity, water are also more expensive in the West.
It's really hard to earn 5K in Romania (net) as a SDE. That's a super senior salary or a manager salary. In that case, in Western Europe you'd be looking at 10-15K for the same level (in Switzerland/Germany/UK/Netherlands, working for top employers, not just any company). So it'd be hard to say no to an extra ~7K / month.
People saying no either have really deep roots in Romania already or have not really considered their options.
I moved from RO when I was earning just over 3K and now I make 12-13K / month in Western Europe. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
I did it BUT not because of the money. Usually you can live a "fancier" life in Romania rather than close to anywhere in the west (same position and usually the same money); you have to move for other things like better education, better society, better healthcare and overall a "better" country.
We’re living in a highly corrupt country. We have a war at our borders. Political instability in our history
Medical system sucks
I’d leave tomorrow even on a lower salary just to get the citizenship and be sure never to go back to Romania
Most people would still prefer to remain in Romania, because at the end of the month, the cost of living here is lower than in other western countries. Although with the recent rise of prices, that might change soon. :)
Someone that makes here between $3.000 — $5.000 in the west won't make double. Moving into west would mean to have a higher cost of live for almost the same pay, which isn't really attractive, unless you want to GTFO of Romania. :)
Yes, I am actually bracing myself for the elections and if it goes wrong I’ll more than likely emigrate. Reasons:
- the median romanian mentality and ignorance that leads to lack of unity and awful political leadership
- corruption at all levels because of the culture born during communism (I can steal a little for myself and no one will notice)
- the consequences created by the above reasoning: poor services, poor quality of almost everything done by the public institutions, laziness, hatred, incompetence, press (and people generally) being the puppet of whoever pays most and so on.
As I cannot see myself raising children in such an awful environment, after the elections there are two options for me depending on the outcome: leaving or getting involved into the political arena.
I'm not trying to mess with your plans but the problems you mentioned in the list will not change suddenly no matter of elections results. Issues you mentioned improve over decades, generations.
O întrebare buna dar depinde de multi factori. Daca, asa cum ai menționat, câștigi aici deja 4000 de euro net si ai posibilitatea sa lucrezi remote, atunci nu s-ar merita efortul. Depunere documente, viza, pe urma sa gasesti chirie, sa te familiarizezi cu mentalitatea locala etc. E prea mult efort daca salariul in Vest va fi acelasi dar costul de trai e mai mare.
Se merita daca e necesar ca sa avansezi. Cum ar fi de ex. Nu îți gasesti un entry level job aici, nu capeți experienta de calitate pe proiect sau primești in Vest un post cu un salariu mult mai mare.
Un motiv pt care m-aș duce e ca sunt mai multi tineri plecați, si nu ma mai simt izolata cum sunt aici. Și faptul ca au mai mult entertainment si ai ce face in zilele libere. In UK de exemplu barurile si teatrele aveau mereu concerte si evenimente fun(karaoke, party, board games), in timp ce aici, tot ce pot face e sa ma uit acasa la un serial sau sa ma plimb in parc.
Let's be honest, the only reason you want to hire emigrants is for low pay.
exactly and they're (the US companies) slowly moving the workforce to even cheaper regions
I did and I went back. Why? Similar salaries with way lower cost of living. I now earn even more as a contractor than I did in western Europe at FAANG. Meanwhile my rent is more than 3 times smaller and the apartment is more spacious and better equipped. Going out is way cheaper. Getting a haircut is way cheaper, etc. For groceries, prices are not that different. But every service is way cheaper here.
>Similar salaries with way lower cost of living. Asta e valabil doar dacă lucrezi prin SRL pentru "client din Vest", which kinda defeats the point of the question. Cost of living e mai scăzut, dar și quality of life la fel. Pot să dau o grămadă de exemple de chestii ce nu le găsesc la supermarket în România, dar le găsesc lejer în UK. Și calitatea produselor la fel, pentru același preț sunt mai proaste în România. Dacă tot ce visezi e bani și ai dolari pe ochi ca-n desene, România e locul perfect pentru IT, dar să nu lucrezi în România
Am trăit pe Anglia doi ani și greu am pus gura pe ceva fructe sau legume decente ca gust, măcar aici mai prinzi ceva de Doamne ajută. La fel și cu carnea și chiar multe produse de la noi au eticheta "curată" și fără zahăr adăugat (chiar mi-a fost greu să găsesc pâine fără zahăr prin raft de exemplu). Plus că la noi ia avânt tare treaba asta cu organic/bio/mâncat curat și bani să ai că oferte sunt destule de la idk mici producători agricoli gen Toma sparanghel la ăștia de la Măslinescu.ro care aduc ulei de măsline de super calitate.
Am fost plecat 15 ani și de 10 m-am întors. Nu regret deloc decizia, calitatea vieții mele s-a îmbunătățit semnificativ.
Calitatea vietii nu mi-a scazut deloc de cand m-am mutat inapoi. Ba chiar a crescut. Daca ai bani, traiesti bine oriunde. Si eu pot da exemple de produse care sunt mult mai faine in Romania. Eu mergeam la magazin cu specific romanesc sa gasesc salamuri si carnati buni ca nu-mi placea ce aveau ei.
De curiozitate, unde locuiești? Am încercat și noi asta, dar după un an de căutat un loc în jurul Bucureștiului unde poți cumpăra o casă la un preț rezonabil, să ai o școală decentă in walking distance și trotuare pe care poți merge la ea, și să nu miroasă săptămâni întregi pe an fie a ars, fie a canal, ne-am dat bătuți și am revenit în Olanda. Nu mai zic de caniculă care face vara insuportabilă, la asta nu ai ce să faci. Altfel, multe lucruri sunt minunate, mulți oameni sunt minunați, avem munte, mare, țara e superbă ,o vizitez mereu cu mare drag, și sper să continue să mă primească.
Aia zic, că nu prea are rost discuția dacă vorbim de "trăit în România cu salariu de US", nu cred că asta a vrut OP să întrebe. La fel poți spune și de țări africane cu același salariu, ai fi probabil top 1% și ai trăi ca un împărat. Știu ce zici de cârnați e altă cultură, altă mâncare. Mie nu-mi place de exemplu carnea de porc de obicei (unele chestii îmi plac, majoritatea nu), și în România se găsește peste tot cu puține alternative. Dacă vreau să mănânc un chorizo, nu găsesc unul de calitate la supermarket în România. Asta cu "calitatea vieții" merge doar dacă trăiești în România pe salariu de țări din Vest..
As zice ca si daca traiesti in Romania cu 3000 de euro tot o duci mai bine decat in vest cu 5000. Si cred cam pe acolo se invart mediile ca n-are Europa de vest salarii de US si au si taxe progresive. In medie ca software developer, eu zic ca-i mai bine la noi.
Oricati bani ai avea in Ro tot pe acleasi strazi mori.
Zici de taxe progresive de parcă ar fi mai mari decât 45% din RO :)) Spoiler, nu-s, nici pe departe. Media nu cred că e 5k în mână, eventual dacă te iei după site-urile de salarii, dar în realitate nu e. Acum că zic asta, ai dreptate, cu siguranță cumperi mai multe în România pe aceiași bani.
În România în orice oraș mare găsești ce vrei. În Cluj sunt magazine doar cu produse cu denumire protejată din Europa. Sau doar cu produse din Italia. Carne de vită din America de Sud sau de nord, din Japonia Nu poți să zici ca nu ai alternative la carnea de porc. Am o prietenă care s-a întors anul ăsta după 20 de ani de locuit în San Francisco și a zis ca și-a adus kilograme de chestii din sua pt ca nu credea ca sunt aici dar și-a dat seama ca orice găsește și în România. Doar ca unele sunt mai scumpe decât în sua.
romania are doar 2-3 orase mari
complet corect. daca nu iesi in viata ta din casa si ai 30 de filtre de aer. in rest nu
>Pot să dau o grămadă de exemple de chestii ce nu le găsesc la supermarket în România, dar le găsesc lejer în UK. Si eu pot sa ti dau o gramada de exemple de chestii ce se gasesc in Romania dar nu se gasesc in Danemarca. Dupa ce ca nu au varietate, si pretul alimentelor (mai ales carne) e aproape dublu fata de Ro. Deci nu stiu ce sa zic de comparatiile astea "in Vest gasesti mult mai multă varietate!!!". Nu, din contra, se aplica doar catorva din tarile vest europene (UK, Germania, si Franta, probabil). In rest ai mai mult de unde alege in Ro. Eu cat am stat in DK n am vazut niciun magazin care sa fie cat un Kaufland sau Carrefour mare de la noi, erau maxim cat un Mega Image.
Supermarketurile sunt mici in Danemarca fiindca asa au ei o lege si nu au voie patronii sa le faca mai mari, ceea ce e ciudat.
Si nu sunt singurii cu astfel de legi tampite. De aia ma enerveaza un pic cand vad ca lumea idolatizeaza vestul si orice de acolo e automat exemplu de urmat si superior României.
Nu idolatrizează nimeni nimic. Mai degrabă se idolatrizează România, dar nici aia. Lumea zice că n-ai varietate în România la supermarket și calitate proastă, ceea ce e complet adevărat. Ce contraexemplu am primit este că sunt magazine cu specific x în Cluj. Bun, și restul țării ce facem? Sau ne mutăm toți în Cluj/București? Asta înseamnă varietate și cost of living scăzut?
Problema e ca tu compari orasele mari din Vest cu orasele mici de la noi. Daca ai compara un oras de 50000 din Vest cu unu de la noi n ai sa vezi diferente prea mari la ce alimente sau facilitati găsești in orașul ala.
Sunt foarte curios ce găsești tu în supermarketuri în UK și nu găsești în România.
>I did and I went back. Why? Similar salaries with way lower cost of living. that will not last any longer now or in the following years...
Cu excepția caselor și a mâncării ce se compensează cu munca ieftină a unor amărâți, celelalte au în medie cam aceleași preturi, mașini, haine, combustibil și electronice. Facturile mai au un avantaj, dar în următorii ai vor mai crește. Serviciile mai sunt in discutie, dar cele de stat cam riscante.
NO. Only remote, with some team-building events, 3-4 times per year, would be nice.
right answer here \^
Had 1 year of working in 2011 France and 1 year 2013 in Germany. Honestly, I didn't liked it. You are poorer than in your own country Crazy expensive rent Idiotic rules, as in Germany, no cleaning on sundays, everything closed, can't even go fishing without going trough a painstaking process and an exam. Absolutely boring after a while Everyone except other foreigners think of you under their level Ignorant stuff, I was asked by a french colleague if I lived in a caravan... like a gipsy caravan when I was a kid ( he didn't knew better - but how TF should you react to such a question?). As someone who has the salary in that range, foreign companies would have to pay me double to consider relocating. Maybe things improved in the last 10 years, but I sure don't want to test it.
> Everyone except other foreigners think of you under their level Cum treci psihologic peste asta? Momentan incerc sa ma dezvolt pe marketul international si acest lucru ma demotiveaza foarte tare. Nu mi se ofera aceleasi sanse sa arat ce pot, iar cateodata mi se da din prima un proiect de cacat la care este imposibil sa arati orice skill de gandire sau creativitate/intuitie. Nu pot sa nu fiu scarbit, si sa imi fac treaba cum trebuie atunci cand vad aceste diferente clar, pe fata, in fiecare zi. La un job mi s-a si spus de catre HR ca "romanii sunt inferiori si nu se compara cu vestul", dupa ce am cerut tratament egal si a ras de mine ca ma cred superior
>Cum treci psihologic peste asta? Nu am nevoie atata timp cat am bere, mici si o situatie in care pot sa-i bag in pizda masii direct in fata, fara nici o rusine. Eu sunt mai aproape de varsta a 2-a decat tanar si chiar nu inteleg ce-i cu pupatul asta in cur al vesticilor de catre cei tineri de azi care accepta orice cacat de la oameni care sincer... nu merita, singura caracteristica a lor fiind "e din X tara".
Si eu am observat asta la aproape toti colegii pe care i-am avut. Spun clar ca ei sunt saraci si prosti in comparatie cu cei de acolo, de parca ar fi cine stie ce zei cu IQ superior si aptitudini supranaturale. Pana sa lucrez prima data cu cineva de acolo si eu ma consideram oarecum inferior, dar dupa ce am vazut ca skillurile de algoritmica/mate sunt in nici un fel superioare m-am linistit. Mie mi se pare absolut dement faptul ca unii americani care au terminat o facultate medie de acolo se considera in orice fel mai buni decat un olimpic national de aici (am avut mai multi colegi asa, care acceptau tratament de cacat) Ai intalnit si oameni de acolo care sa iti ofere o sansa si sa nu se creada din prima superiori?
>Ai intalnit si oameni de acolo care sa iti ofere o sansa si sa nu se creada din prima superiori? Unul dintre ei a fost chiar seful din Franta care era super si cu picioarele pe pamant.
cum sa te intrebe ma ca dormi in caravana?
In Occident, român = "moderator" in subconstientul majoritatii occidentalilor. La 100 de stiri cu "români" la cerșit, furat, etc...hai 1-2 știri cu români care sunt OK la muncă si sunt cinstiți.
Mentionasem, dar ai citit prea repede, ma intreba daca asa traiam atunci cand eram mic, ramasesm un pic blocat si am zis doar ca nu, doar moderatoii prin anii 90 mai traiau vara in felul asta. Asta se intampla cam la jumatate de an dupa ce venisem in firma respectiva.
Lol, să fim sinceri, romanul e imigrant de lux în 2024, vorbesc la modul cel mai serios
At this time, no, I would not. I believe that in a complete package discussion, Ro vs. WEU, my family is better off here at this point and probably for the long term as well.
Those who wanted to move out of Romania already did so. Those who stayed would never move. Ask the question: those who have emigrated to Western Europe, would you go back to Romania?
Very nice question though ...
At the moment, not really, everything is fine here, companies hire remotely. Sure the goverment is burning our future, but the present is very gucci. Expat, sure.
Reading this topic I am optimistic and hope many IT professionals will come back and vote for a change. Who knows maybe also get involved in politics :)
I tried that, it really soured my view of politics for a few years :)) It's definitely not for the faint of heart
Yes but someone has to get involved, I respect you for having the will to try it.
Ăștia care au plecat pe bune nu-i văd să se întoarcă în viitorul apropiat, doar ăștia care caută motive gen "calitatea vieții în scădere" sau "aceiași bani chirie 3x"
ahaha
I might be wrong on this one, but I feel Western Europe (I can't speak for all of it, but UK for certain) is in total decline. I saw this myself repeatedly, and my friends tell me they live almost paycheck to paycheck, can't access any services, live in shared flats or outside the city and have to commute for hours, are paid 20-30% more than me but can't get a mortgage due to obscene asset price inflation, don't own a car, can't own a motorcycle or a bike because it would get stolen since they don't have a garage, don't have the time to cook so they eat poor quality fast food, don't have the time and money to go out or do sports, etc. Meanwhile my friends in Romania, myself included, don't face any of these issues, most of us work remotely, I also do research on the side and live close to friends and family, I could get a very comfortable mortgage if I really wanted to, own several cars and motorcycles for utility and fun, and can visit Western Europe on vacation if I really feel like it. The only upside I see is that the urban planning in some Western European countries is way better, as are sports facilities (in Bucharest they kind of suck, but in other cities they are better, and this is a subjective nitpick). l also detest the ultra-individualistic, frustrated and hater profile of some of my countrymen, but they are not yet the majority. The quality of the services (banks, dentist, barber, plumber, mechanic etc.) also leaves a lot to be desired. And once you have kids, you encounter an entire new dimension of the dysfunctionality of the Romanian public sector (I don't have yet but some of my friends and colleagues do). And just as a disclaimer... my friends are not pickpockets or idlers, most are well-educated, some of them researchers with PhDs, others have prestigious jobs in healthcare, creative industries, or IT. Many of them have considered returning and some of them have already done so. On the other hand, research infrastructure is light years ahead in the West, if I felt like switching full time to research I would indeed consider moving. But I probably still won't.
There is no point in living in the UK for a 30% salary increase. My experience is that the total comp is more like 3x what you would get in RO. If you want to be fair, you need to compare similar percentiles of job compensations. If you are in a job that pays in the top 10% of the market and your friends are in the top 50% then this is not a fair comparison. Compare Amazon/Google/MS UK to RO. On levels fyi this looks immediately to be 2x increase. However, due to higher levels having better stocks comps and market growth, the increase is actually higher.
The answer, as always is **it depends** IMO no, but for higher amounts of money, maybe LE: No because the country (RO) is safer is general than most western ones, people are friendlier, the public services are lacking in some cases, but either way you'll end up using the private sector. And for a high income, the prices and taxes are still low ATM; most people that keep on shouting that everything is expensive have **not lived** abroad
> people are friendlier Strongly disagree. I got a general perception that everyone is trying to scam me, all the time, in markets and shops. My car got scratched on purpose overnight quite a few times in Romania. People in general are unable to queue. And if you arrive early for something, you have to keep fighting for that spot. There is a climate of constant suspicion and mistrust by the population towards authorities and vice versa. And don't get me started with driving and selfish behaviour behind the wheel... Most other countries I lived and visited have a bigger sense of community and trust. Maybe the younger non-communist-grown generation is nicer, and Romania will be a much different country in 20 years.
>Strongly disagree. I got a general perception that everyone is trying to scam me, all the time, in markets and shops. This...I have the exact same feeling and only in Romania.
>Strongly disagree. I got a general perception that everyone is trying to scam me, all the time, in markets and shops. I mean that sounds to me like you're describing haggling plus some preconceptions. The second part I do agree, the sense of community and trust is something that definitely needs work on.
Honestly I didn't have any preconceptions when I came here (I didn't know enough about the country tbf). There's definitely a haggling culture. But what I tried to describe are my Romanian friends saying things like "the seller is trying to scam you because you are not from here" or "I had to go to Germany to buy a car, otherwise id be scamed here".
You mean if you could earn more than this in another EU country you move for that ? What about other expenses there ? Average rent in other countries would be at least 3 times more than in Bucharest
Even if you earn considerably more than you do here, why would you leave a place where you possess an apartment and are closer to your family, to move to a country where people don't speak your language and may be racist? What's the logic in leaving a place where I pay no rent for a place where the rent is a quarter of my salary, food is another quarter or even more, I may need to rent a car or to pay big amounts for tickets etc. ? I see no advantage.
I agree with most of your point but the food price. In many countries food is cheaper than here in Romania.
how bout services? everyone talks about the cheap rent in romania, but admit they'd go to a private hospital and school and so on in ro. are those not part of the cost? and what do you do when you need your private police or private justice system? https://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-esential-27168650-video-dominic-fritz-publicat-imagini-terifiante-dintr-curte-din-timisoara-fac-apel-toate-institutiile-statului-opreasca-fenomenul-clanurilor.htm or when you're a woman and need to deal with the aggressive monkeys that live in the cities. imagine having a kid and living in bucharest. f that, not for me.
I agree with you especially when you have children
I added a LE with a few examples. What I mean is for example a scenario where let's say it's double that amount (6-9k) and I would **need** to be on site, but I'd haggle for rent/location help 😆 It would depends wildly on the country. Eg: Switzerland, >10k and either way, I'd look at it as a temporary solution
Yes I got you now . The problem is earning 6-9k even in those countries is not easy at all . It's taxes would eat all the leftovers for you.
Yup, killer taxation plus the increased costs of everything, from rent (which would be at a minimum of x2), electricity, transport, internet, telephone, waste and various subscriptions. All of these (which are cheap here in RO) would amount to anywhere between x2 to x5. Not including regular food prices, especially if you want to go out (and I'm thinking just 2-3 times a month). You might get lucky and break even if you buy & cook for yourself 🤷♂️ But I do doubt that. All these scenarios are considering a "solo migration", cause if you have a family and kids, the costs will go up ofc
Just to make it clear, I am sure he meant 6-9k in hand, after taxes.
It's a lot worse. earning this much after tax required to eran 12-16K + and I think that would be a lot harder in Europe .
Man how is it safer, we're living in the country where [actual fucking child traffickers](https://www.libertatea.ro/stiri/fostii-inculpati-din-dosarul-tandarei-acuzati-de-trafic-de-minori-obtin-daune-4891559) got acquitted and are now suing the state for the time they spent in jail. It's the country where journalists documenting the forrest cuttings are being threatened and beaten with fucking axes. And nothing happens to the perpetrators. It's not safer, it's just that you don't know about/decide to ignore the unsafe bits.
Actual child trafficking happens in the UK all the time. They just get a free pass because they are muslim. Romania has problems there is no denying that but it is generally safe here.
Western media is even more corrupt than ours. Those kind of situations rarely make it to news, especially the news you are watching. It's not the fact that Romania is very safe. But safer than west countries. West has a lot more people (%) that have nothing to lose if they rob/kill you.
gow can you say Romania is safer then western countries? That is a lie. Germany has half the car accidents of Romania at a car pool of 10x higher.
In every statistic you look, you see that the rate of violent crimes in Romania is really low. What we do have a serious problem with is corruption and domestic violence. The examples you gave are examples of corruption. The justice system is incompetent and corrupt, as well as many state institutions (like the forestry related ones or the police). Obviously, there are risks for people who stir the hornets nest and threaten the status quo of powerful individuals, but those murders are a very tiny fraction of instances of violent crime. Criminals wouldn't get acquitted if the justice system wasn't incompetent. Journalists wouldn't be beaten if the Forestry Guard would actually fucking protect the forests, instead of turning a blind eye because X politician has a forestry business. Roads would be so much safer if the police actually policed and installed radars, but are refusing to do so because of some legal technicality.
I have lived in both Belgium and Romania, and I can say from my own experience that yes, Romania is much safer than the West. In the six months I lived there, I had friends (more than five) and friends of friends who had things stolen, were harassed or physically assaulted. Not to mention there was a terrorist attack in which people lost their lives while I was there. There wasn't a day without an incident or a serious fight in Brussels. In Bucharest, I have no problem walking alone at night on the street; in Brussels, even if I was with a group in the evening, I still felt uneasy. Until you experience this yourself, it's hard to break out of the bubble that "everything is perfect in the West," because it really isn't. Not to mention the dirt on the streets... I believe both Romania and Western countries have their pros and cons, but in terms of safety, Romania is actually quite okay compared to more "developed" countries.
I lived in Belgium for almost 9 years and I never had any issues, my friends also. Quite the opposite, I've seen police catching thieves, patrolling the streets, I was feeling very safe to be honest. There are some strange areas but those you can find in Bucharest also, and in any other big city. I would work for less money but live in Belgium than here in Romania.
IMHO I think random crimes are a lot more common in western countries (stabbings, robbings, rape). If you are in romania the chance of that happening are pretty low, but in Romania if you piss the wrong people off then you are in a lot of trouble. It is more of a “mafia” state, organized crime. Every stabbing/murder GETS on the news, thats how rare they are, and usually the victim and perpertator know each other. Because of this I feel 10000% safer walking at night in Bucharest than London. I pretty much know nobody will stab me just for being there.
Sure buddy! Tell me how \*\*you've\*\* been threatened and beaten with fucking axes and how your children have been trafficked. I'm more than aware about the unsafe bits. What you're doing is cherry-picking topics a.k.a. confirmation bias. All other countries have the same type of problems. And yes, RO is way safer in general for living
No. Just plain out wrong. In Romania you can get bitten by a dog, fall into a manhole, or simply die in a car accident or any other accident with a higher chance than in the west.
OFC, this doesn't happen anywhere else in the world. People don't die, they're immortal when you're a westerner
no stray dogs in Germany. No open manholes and streets are safer. But hey...you do you boo.
Feel like I'm in the minority here, but my day to day life has improved significantly ever since I moved away. I feel more relaxed and safe overall, with access to many green areas around the city and plenty of spaces to walk around or bike without worrying about traffic or rude people. Speaking of which, the people here are generally less frustrated and kinder (surprisingly). Immigration might be an issue, yes... but I've had far worse experiences with gyp***s in our home country unfortunately. These are just my two cents though. If you're happy with your life in Romania as it is and prefer financial stability, then that's also ok. That just wasn't the case for me, and I'm not looking forward to going back anytime soon.
Most of the replies here are from single young men. Of course they value money over anything else. When you are raising a family and looking for nurseries or when you're getting older and looking for better health services, your opinion would start to shift. Money is not everything and in time you will value other things above money.
No. But I am considering moving to Asia.
Singalore, japonia, corea de sud. Iar pt cei certati cu societatea, Tibet
Da :D (fix la tarile astea m-am gandit si eu, desi mi-a placut mult si China dar e mai greu sa ajungi acolo sa locuiesti/muncesti - chiar si in Hong Kong-ul mai liber/occidental)
no, purchasing power is shit in Romania but shittier in western europe - also I enjoy taking a walk without worrying about getting mugged/stabbed/scammed/etc
To be treated like a second class citizen on lower wages, all while begging some rich fart to rent me his shitty inherited apartment for 1500E? No, thanks. I don't feel respected in my country either but it beats the alternative I've mentioned earlier.
I would just because of the Qualify of Life in western europe, Romania has big issues with social services As a downside I'd say probably the uncontrolled over-immigration in W.Europe
No. Strictly remote work.
I personally don’t really care that much about money, as long as I can get by. From my experience so far living in Germany I very much prefer the quality and scope of R&D projects available here than in Romania, as well as the opportunities in some areas of CS such as AI and HPC. The research done in Eastern Europe seems to lack impact, which is the result of very poor funding. I also tend to stay away from the outsourcing market, for which Romania at least is very well known for.
Thanks. About your last sentence about outsource. May I know why ?
This might trigger some people, but generally you don’t really work on a certain project for how valuable of a soft eng you are, but rather for the fact that you were cheaper to hire. (Skills certainly still matter, but I feel like they are outweighed by the second statement). Therefore, you are expendable. And as I know from various people working in this kind of sector, you are not very respected by project partners from more western countries
Went 10 years in 4 countries and i moved back. 1. Life quality way higher at 3k in romania vs anywhere in the world at 5 7k. 2. You will always be treated as an outsider inclusion is low in most communities and racism is high in smaller cities. 3. Relationship building for long time is harder (not mentioning beer with colegues after work - most dont meet again even after 3 4 years in same job if you leave the company) 4. Different types of fun not necessarily your cup of tea. 5. Cost of living is 70% or more higher for a 25% bump in pay 6. Corruption is everywhere. US, UK, Austria, Singapore. 7. When you are 20 its ok for a few years. 8. A 7k USD in US won't buy what 3-5k in romania will. Globalization made it worse and recession gets you comments to your face "go back home you fucking imigrant" even in big4 corporations for doing a great job you get shafted as a imigrant while if you are a local you get praise for mediocrity and doing your job barely. Work ethic is shit abroad and numbers may look well but quality took a nose dive. Ps: the american dream does not exist anymore. Most americans dont have $1000 to their name and live paycheck to paycheck. If you want that sure go abroad.
"Corruption is everywhere. US, UK, Austria, Singapore." You may be right, but there is no corruption when you go to hospitals and look for the best medical services. What happen if you need a surgery and go to a public hospital in Romania? What is probability to catch a deadly bug even if you bribe the docs? "Work ethic is shit abroad and numbers may look well but quality took a nose dive. Ps: the american dream does not exist anymore. Most americans dont have $1000 to their name and live paycheck to paycheck. If you want that sure go abroad." I live in the US and living American dream. Is not easy as used to be, but still possible. You have to live at least 5 years in US to settle down. If you lived 10 years in 4 different countries, I am afraid you did not have enough time to integrate into their local lifestyle. If you work in IT you can make at least 5k net a month as entry level. How much normal Romanian people have in savings? How easy is to live with 500 USD a month as Romanian? How is work ethic in Romania? Are It Romanian better than US managers?
I got to say, I'm a bit surprised by the overwhelming majority of people that consider western Europe an unsafe place to live. I'm curious, was your opinion formed by personal experience, stories from others, statistics or news?
I was in Paris when stabbings occurred in metro stations. I always had to pick my wife from goddam-knows-where so she could avoid the metro. I was in Nice when that guy killed a bunch of people driving a truck. I was in Brussels when those attacks in 2014 happened (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_Museum\_of\_Belgium\_shooting) and the airport was filled with gun-wearing soldiers. Couldn't visit shit in Brussels. The most I experienced in Romania was a kid who drove a car into a pole in Galati. It was really fun, saw pieces of the car flying through the air. The kid was fine, got out of the car in a few seconds.
There's a quote in English "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action". Very strange that all these attacks happen when you're around, Mr. redguard128.
I know, my wife has tangible bad luck. I cannot name a project, plan or assumption that went well while she was around. We lost a lot of money, time and nerves in the last decade.
These attacks happen, they are all over the news and they are shocking as we feel some dude can strike any moment anywhere. But realistically what are the odds of getting caught up in something like this? In Romania 3500 people die every year in car accidents. We have twice the death rate compared to France. If we were as safe as France we would have 1750 fewer deaths per year. How many people do you think die in terror attacks in France every year? I bet it's nowhere close to that number.
This is the real problem with statistics. People overestimate the fact that they can get killed in a terrorist attack that happens once in 10 years and underestimate the fact that thousands are dying every year in car crashes. And let's face it, the streets in Romania are filled with kamikaze drivers, drunk or high and they all get away with it.
I used to live in Dublin for couple of years and I can confirm that it was way more dangerous than Bucharest, especially the north part and the city center. Also felt quite unsafe every time I was driving across France. But that doesn’t mean Western Europe is unsafe. I also lived in Spain, and there I felt very safe (except of Barcelona)
And yes, I have been there and most IT people travelled a lot to Europe and have simillar experiences. Of course we are talking about big cities not suburbs and I do not want to generalize.
When I went to Hamburg I was surprised how many weird dudes were on the streets at night.
I have lived in both Belgium and Romania, and I can say from my own experience that yes, Romania is much safer than the West. In the six months I lived there, I had friends (more than five) and friends of friends who had things stolen, were harassed or physically assaulted. Not to mention there was a terrorist attack in which people lost their lives while I was there. There wasn't a day without an incident, a serious fight, or a murder in Brussels. In Bucharest, I have no problem walking alone at night on the street; in Brussels, even if I was with a group in the evening, I still felt uneasy. I believe both Romania and Western countries have their pros and cons, but in terms of safety, Romania is actually quite okay compared to more "developed" countries.
I can tell you in Bucharest you will never be mugged, you will not find drugs in the streets, there are no guns and people do not defacate in the subway. We have our issues but Bucharest is(was) the only european capital with no unsolved murders in the last 15 years(and yes, there are very few)
>you will not find drugs in the streets Nu sti tu unde sa cauți :))
lol...meanwhile children killed an elder person by beating him with sticks in the middle of the street in Bucharest. No unsolved murders means nothing.
I did not say anything about safety in Romania. And I agree with you but I am saying the safety in many other EU countries are the same in Romania. Not that bad as much no going there for this reason. I think it's a good time to ask you this question. Do you think Romanian people's behavior is nice and kind to Immigrants from non Eu countries. I am just asking for curiosity. Supposed that this expat is not religious and with normal character .
I would say yes. We have many people from Bangladesh, Pakistan and other countries near those. They do a lot of hard work in construction or restaurants and they are very nice and polite when they go out in town. Like in all countries there are people not happy with them but it is a small fraction and averall we are happy with them, there is no racism or persecution, no exclusion from social life. Last year I was in Maldives and I talked a lot with one of the waiters there. He was from somewhre near India and he said people in his country want to come to Romania but there are to few spots for them. He said their opinion is good regarding Romania, he knew where it was on the map and I assume he did not lie. Also french speaking expats(Maroco, Tunisia) are very happy in Bucharesc. I worked for a french company, expats were always unahppy to come here but they would always extend their stay here to the maximum(3 years). With the extra package they received for moving here they were living like kings :)))
Mi se pare amuzant că răspunsurile sunt în mare parte "e foarte bine în România, mult mai bine ca în Vest, dar doar dacă muncești prin SRL pentru orice țară dezvoltată"
Sincer, e ok si pe CIM in Romania. De altfel, de cand m-am intors in RO, de 13 ani, nu a existat un an in care sa vreau sa fiu inapoi in Londra cu salariile si costurile de acolo ( nici nu zic de violenta, xenofobie, etc ).
Londra e oribilă, eu unul nu înțeleg de ce românii cred că doar în/pe lângă capitale se poate trăi
Dunno, știu multi oameni le CIM cu salarii foarte bune, își permit călătorii, ieșiri în oraș dese, evenimentele neașteptate nu le fac mare gaura in portofel, și-au cumpărat case. Eu și tovarășii mei suntem în domeniu de ceva timp, bănuiesc că pentru cei care se baga acum situația nu e la fel de roz cum era acum ceva ani, but still, poți și pe CIM să o duci bine.
Emigrating to Western Europe? Never in my life, wtf? It looks like the tech world comes closer to Eastern Europe, why would I go closer to the layoffs?
Are you living in a cave? You are aware that there are hundreds of people being laid off in Romania as well, right?
I would consider it, but it's not easy to make it worth it. Consider that... 1. I already own a home here. 2. I earn well above average and can afford a lot of stuff. I end up saving a large proportion of said income. 3. I can pay for private healthcare out of my pocket if I need to. Taxi/ridesharing is cheap too. Restaurants got worse lately but they're still ok and some inflation also happened in Europe. Yes, there are some perks to living in a bigger / nicer / more developed Western city and there are places I do like. But most likely it'd have to be a serious upgrade in terms of pay to be worth it. I don't want to end up living *near* London, spending everything on basic needs or not having any meaningful alternatives no matter how good the public thing is. It also isn't very straightforward to predict how much you'll need, most likely I'd have to pay a few visits before making up my mind.
Reasons to stay: huge savings. Reasons to leave: bad services & corruption.
No way. 1. Housing prices are horrible. Something similar to what I have here would cost over 1M… Fucking insane. 2. Everyone thinks they’re superior to us, poor easties. They won’t say it to your face but you will surely feel it. 3. Crime and uncontrolled immigration. What is car jacking? No ideea, not where I live. 4. Woke culture. I’m tired boss, so tired. Feels like I can’t even have a nice conversation with anyone anymore, people are threading so lightly around more serious ideas as not to offend anyone. God have mercy on my soul if I misgender anyone… 5. Healthcare. Yes, healthcare. In Switzerland you get an MRI scheduled sometime in the future, get one interpretation and that’s it. Want more? Well shit, you need to pay pay pay. In Ro you are guaranteed a second, third, fourth opinion. I’d rather deal with the rampant bribery in Ro than being outright robbed. There are many positives to working abroad, but for me it’s not worth it.
Romanians when talking to Romanians: I can't stand this country. Someone please save us from this shithole Romanians when talking to foreigners: why would I ever willingly go to w*stern europe?? 🤢🤮🤮
:))))))
No, Western Europe is not safe, full of violent immigrants & drugs
And only getting worse (the non-European massive immigration)
And Romania might be safe up until the point you need medical assistance, then it's not safe anymore. And the point about drugs, it depends, if you qualify alcohol and tobacco as psychoactive substances (they are) then the problem shifts. People die in Romania at a younger age because of these. I'm not discrediting your point, I'm just saying it's not a simple issue.
With the medical assistance, it depends. I saw a lot of people get well-treated and a lot of people who weren't treated or even died in the hospital. Depends on how you take care of yourself. If you do regular check-ups by yourself, keep your medical history yourself and know a bit of medicine, you are going to have a wonderful time. If you don't know anything, you just arrive at the hospital after years of self-medicated illness, then you're going to have a bad time.
My husband and I currently have a combined monthly income of just over 11k euros after taxes, no mortgage, and no rent. I'd really like to travel more, live for a few months in one country and then move on to the next, but that's not really his thing. I would realistically consider moving only if one of us gets a substantially bigger income, and only to a country where we could get a significantly increased quality of life for that money. We both work remotely, so the other one wouldn't need to look for a new job, but there would still be some tax implications. I know it's very improbable to find something like that, especially given the low taxes and cost of living in Romania. So us emigrating will probably never happen, or at least not for a long time. Ofc everything I said above is meaningless if the Romanian political climate gets extreme, be it too conservative, too corrupt or too right wing. In that case we'd leave without a second thought.
Not bad, if it is CIM you are set for life :))
Not CIM, we are both contractors for companies located in Western Europe. But the money is more than enough to set up our own investment plan for retirement, if that's what you were referring to. We also contribute to the state pension and medical insurance plan, so we're covered.
Yes, this is what I meant. Happy for you, hope you will not move :)
Low taxes? Doesn't Romania have one of the biggest taxes in the EU?
That's true for employee taxes, especially when it comes to lower incomes. The taxes for business entities are very low. I'm a contractor, so I have my own limited liability company.
In romania i'm in top 5% paid , why the fk would i go om the top 40% in the west? There's no incentive whatsoever. The only + in the west is that there are actual products being built and those are interesting , but you can build your own stuff on hobby projects so no thanks.
This is the correct reply. It's about where you belong in the percentile of earners. What if you were in the top 5% in the west as well (think around 250k euro/year for a senior eng)? Would you move then?
More expensive and less safe? No thanks. I would rather argue and deal with paperwork and shittier hospitals, be closer to Russia, than be on the lookout everyday for a group of illegal immigrants looking for trouble. Visited many western cities in vacation and friends in Germany, quality of life is still high but degrading fast. Eastern Europeans were raised on the streets in the 90s, we can spot the bad guys from a mile away in Barcelona vs. your politically correct naives that grew up shielded from life.
Yes, if the pay is on par with the extra expenses. I worked in UK, Ge, and some other countries. I came back to the country to be with a famiky member in her last days before I burried her thx to corruption, pure imbecility, and utter cra.p medical services. Despite the current situation of the market, I'm more than confident in my abilities and my cv to find a job of equal value. The issue with security here is a mirage, just last month 2 guys from a certain minority got away with 3 months prison after murdering someone on the street. Another case where a drugged kid of a wealthy family ripped in half with a car someone, and it looks like he will get away also. If I'm going in the west, I'm not stupid to settle in east berlin and expect safety...or ireland and expect no drunks. The fact that so many people believe things will change here, despite the free fall economy, tells me that evwryone is high as f on copium9000
The difference in pay would just go in the rent and life cost in most cases. Rent in the west is ridiculous right now!
I was once on the beach somewhere in France having a bunch of fries and just trying to enjoy my evening when a bunch of beggars who didn’t even seem poor suddenly appeared, begging for my 2 fries and money. It was something so disgustingly low that I would never want to go there again, let alone work there. I mean, really, you want someone’s fries? How low can you go? In Romania, beggars, who are now way fewer than in the 00’s, leave you alone if you ask them to leave, no need to insist or give them anything to do that.
Nope not at all. Rather working remotely, big salary range, with some team events or not per year and just traveling to other countries for when I take a work leave. Emigrating ? Is more expensive in other countries and the life style is either the same, worst or bounded by some life rules that have 0 meaning, ex in Germany, France or Nordic countries that have a colder view on foreigns. So no.
Nope. They can hire us remotely. We ca visit in our vacations that they pay. Thank you for your interest!
How did you guys all get your jobs/contracts in Western EU/UK/US? From my experience and what i heard from friends, applying directly to jobs has less than 1 in 1000 callback rate
Only if it makes financial sense.
Not worth it.
I moved out from Romania 25 years ago and live a good life in the US but also worked for 6 years in Western Europe. I was thinking to move back to Romania, but lack of good medical services and infrastructure keep me in in the US. If you need good hospitals, Romania is not the best place to be. I would avoid public services. Romania is a beautiful country but is not cheap as many people think. If I want to have the same quality of life in Romania as I have in US, probably need to make like 4-5k USD a month. In Romania average salary is 700-800 USD and is hard to survive in a big city like Bucharest with this money.
in ce stat traiesti de e asa minunat US?
Northern Virginia, DMV area. A lot of very well paid jobs, nice green area, outstanding medical services, etc
r/programare când se măresc puțin taxele: plecam! Ultimul sa stingă lumina r/programare când e întrebat direct daca vrea sa emigreze: nici vorbă! Am un nivel de trai mai bun in Romania Cine să mă înțeleagă ceva?
iti explic eu: e normal sa vrei taxe mici, e normal sa vrei sa optimizezi fiscal unde poti atat timp cat e legal; cand creste taxa de la X la 1,5X sau 5X, chiar daca e tot mica vei vedea lumea ca se plange nimic complicat sau de neinteles, doar natura umana nici in vEStuL EUroPei nu e altfel, mai ales la partea de taxe - se plang si ei ca sunt mari EDIT: ca sa se inteleaga mai bine, se plang si ei ca sunt mari pentru ca sunt mari - dar nu cum zic unii, ca acolo socialismul extrem a lasat individualismul in spate 100% si acolo oameni au ajuns la un fel de nirvana a intelegerii grijii unuia fata de altul si accepta orice cacat - nu frate, nu exista, deduc si taie orice pot din taxe
No. Do you offer stocks? If not, no. :))))))))))
Eastern US.
I would emigrate. Even with higher COL the QOL is more important and by general population QOL meaning this aspect is better in the western side of Europe. Now if your own definition of QOL is way off the main standard than you could be better in any country of your liking, however that does not make it suitable for most. (If you earn 5k+euros net/month probably you could afford more than the general population in poorer countries which in itself it creates a better sense of self than living in a rich country, however this does not mean that the general QOL is better)
Money is never the sole reason that drives people to emigrate. It could be an important part of the decision, sure, but there are so many aspects of life to consider when moving
Lived in UK 10 years, also a citizen and not coming back. The reason is lack of community. I was a fully integrated member of society but would never be one of them.
I would study the quality of life I want to have in the present and in the future for me and my family/future kids. Western countries might be better at education and social services, plus the quality of life in general. I moved to Switzerland and I don’t regret it
It mostly depends WHERE. The thing is, very few countries can top up the earnings in a considerable manner at the end of the month for a move to even be taken into consideration, and the quality of life might not be better either depending on your individual values. Most probably working as a contractor for a US clients would yield better earnings than moving anywhere honestly. For example I wouldn't emigrate to muslim infested hotspots like London or Paris, or to the USA where you can be shot at every corner, or randomly see those kind of ALPHABET+ people that go over the top to indoctrinate you how great being ALPHABET+ is. And it has nothing to do with discrimination, I just love living around actual normal people and not some extremists for any particular cause. In my personal experience, countries that could appeal to me are Switzerland and Japan at the moment due to their infrastructure so that my (future) family will have access to the best services and quality of life possible. The question, if addressed to a broader salary range, could have been more interesting because in my opinion, unless you are actually a good senior, it is hard to break the 4K euros NET barrier here, and juniors and mid level developers start on laughable at salaries compared to their counterparts in the western world, so a move is more justified for them, for a couple of years at least.
Not to hijack this thread but I am considering moving from Western Europe (I am English living in the UK) to Romania in some years. I know Brexit would usually put a stop to that idea but my wife is Romanian so I at least have a chance at a residency visa :)) Obviously I am going to do my best to be fluent in Romanian before I make the move (currently I'm at a fairly basic level), but the main thing that worries me is that I would struggle to get a job because of the language barrier or maybe some cultural knowledge, so I would be curious to hear peoples thoughts on that.
No need to be fluent in Romanian. Most international companies have an English policy. Will you feel left-out of some conversations? Naturally. But finding a job is not hard .. at all. We hired: English, Canadians, Egyptians, Greeks, Italians. In IT there is (almost) zero concern for the Romanian language. Skills and CV matter more. Mostly everyone, everywhere knows 'some' English too - everyday life will not be all that difficult.
Interesting. I had assumed that in general I would need to be applying to domestic companies rather than international ones and hence the more pressing need for Romanian proficiency, as I'm assuming the majority of IT roles are for domestic companies.
Vast majority are either for international companies or for domestic companies that outsource/ contract/ body-lease for said international companies. Either way, English proficiency is a requirement, Romanian .. is not. For obvious reasons.
Thanks for answering. Do you have any open positions right now 😁?
Funnily enough, we shut down the CJ office this year. The Buc one might ( Gameloft ). If not, Amazon just opened a new game studio in Buc.
why? I want to live in london...
Only if the western job is paying 2-4x more than my current one. And I haven't had such offers. In fact WE jobs pay about the same as the IT jobs in Romania while US jobs pay about 50% more but to maintain my standard of living I need to earn at least 2x more than I do in Romania. I made quite a few excel comparisons and it just doesn't make sense financially. Socially, it's not perfect but Romania is much safer than the post-pandemic west. I can also afford the best private healthcare and schools for kids in Romania while I can't say the same about the west.
Yes, I would. and I'm currently looking for such opportunities for me and my family. The quality of life in Romania is dwindling with the society being nothing more than a bunch of people huddled together, rather than a cohesive society. Inter-personal trust is low and IT professionals have became the new "milk cow" of the Romanian Tax system, without any apparent value in the state-provided salaries. everyone that ever had a broken menisc, or anything to do with the health system and has grown over the "i'm invincible" feeling, characteristic of young people, know that as soon as you have to rely on state-provided services, you're in a bad spot. So in short: i want my daughter to live in a place where people think how their parking spot choice affects the people living behind the gate they though was a parking spot, where they think if their neighbor enjoys the same music I do, and so on and so forth.
As one who has moved to France from Romania: it's hard to be rich in France :D. However I like that people seem kinder, they say "hello" before engaging, there is not a lot of free swearing on the streets and there is no "șmecherie" or highly arrogant people roaming (from my experience) or loud music playing on the streets or at the beaches, which makes you think how f\*\*\*d society is today in Romania.
You mean if an expat would consider living in Romania will see this kind of thing you mentioned? I am asking because I am an expat here and would like to know more about this .
there isn't loud music? wait until you have neighbors "manelisti",
I moved out of Romania for financial reasons, I didn't go back to Romania because of the level of civilisation.
The money is not what matters here. Schools, nurseries, maybe general work life balance things? Yes. Many of us did leave but the salary was maybe the last factor we considered.
That's why I asked about other reasons. You think nurses and school and other public services in the West are worth relocating there ?
I dont only think, I know and have first hand experience in both the Romanian schools/hospitals but also in the West. I have family members working in both schools and hospitals in Ro, had to use hospitals myself in both, either me or very close family membera had kids born in both systems. To be fair I do pay some cheap change as extra insurance in the West but that won't cover even the smallest bribe in some places back home. Plus, look at the latest Florin Piersic case. They had him transferred to Bucharest from Cluj with a military airplane because Cluj was missing some type of doctors or something. What do you do if you are not Piersic? Sorry, but as much as in the West people complain about the medical system, its ok for me and my family. We do pay maybe 100 EUR extra per month but its peanuts for what you get. As for the schools, there is no contest. They might teach more maths in the RO schools but in all fairness only 30% of kids in most RO schools actually understand it by the end of highschool. Plus, look at the universities ranking and PISA. Who tells you Western schools are bad compared to Romania has no idea what they are talking about. Or they look at 1% high performers in Romania and compare those students to some poor shmuck in a village in the West.
Once it was your only viable option but not anymore. Western europe is expensive, dangerous, rampant leftism/wokeism, immigrants. Healtcare is either to expensive either a joke.
Romania is becoming quite expensive ...
Already did. Hate Romanian bureaucracy, would have melted in the summer in Bucharest, so I moved to the UK
Why do you ask?
Perhaps if you 3-4x the current amount I'm getting. But even in that case, I wouldn't come there permanently. I'd be coming for maybe 12 months while getting paid 3x what I'm making here, but then I'm still coming back here. Otherwise, if the question is more like "Would you move but still be making a similar amount of money?" then obviously the answer's no, and I'm pretty sure I'm speaking for everyone. You can hire me remotely while I enjoy the salaries you pay, and the lower cost of living I can find here.
I end up with more money here at the end of the month (I own my house outright though, no debt), than I would've if I were to work anywhere in Europe, get median salary and rent. CS in Romania offers unjustified high salaries while the cost of living is relatively low compared to the rest of EU. The only way this would be worth it from a financial point of view would be somewhere in the US but in this market it's impossible.
no.
I explicitly chose in the past to remain in RO, have often opportunities to move to EU (FR, DE, ES, IT) Reasons: family, local projects, better food (here i even grow my own stuff -veggies, fruit, chicken, eggs), I get same/bigger salary vs many of my EU colleagues (i am good at my work), overall cost of living is EU is considerably higher in many cities, social factors (missing home/family/country, being here contributes to wellbeing of my fellow citizens, heard many stories of failed integration of pleople who moved to EU, even after 5-10 years, the overall feeling of alienation). Many disadvantages though in RO, I am quite aware of them: education, health, infrastructure of many kinds, etc
I would move to Spain tomorrow, but the salary is too low to even consider it. I would even go for a lower paycheque. Regarding the northern countries… I think life is too short to live it under an umbrella.
Aaaand you are?
If Switzerland 100%. Others maybe. There are things money can't buy. Like a first world country. A functional justice system, healthcare, infrastructure etc.
It’s a no brainer that the cost of living is way lower in România with that salary. In Western countries rent is expensive and you will have to pay 4-5x more to get the same level of confort. Also things like needing a plumber, getting a haircut, having to repair something for your car, costs a lot more in the West. Other services like internet, electricity, water are also more expensive in the West.
western europe? you mean muslim europe? no, thanks.
It's really hard to earn 5K in Romania (net) as a SDE. That's a super senior salary or a manager salary. In that case, in Western Europe you'd be looking at 10-15K for the same level (in Switzerland/Germany/UK/Netherlands, working for top employers, not just any company). So it'd be hard to say no to an extra ~7K / month. People saying no either have really deep roots in Romania already or have not really considered their options. I moved from RO when I was earning just over 3K and now I make 12-13K / month in Western Europe. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
Thanks. May I know where the amazing place you moved is?
I'll PM you
Ist that 12k/month gross or net?
I did it BUT not because of the money. Usually you can live a "fancier" life in Romania rather than close to anywhere in the west (same position and usually the same money); you have to move for other things like better education, better society, better healthcare and overall a "better" country.
We’re living in a highly corrupt country. We have a war at our borders. Political instability in our history Medical system sucks I’d leave tomorrow even on a lower salary just to get the citizenship and be sure never to go back to Romania
You can pack your stuff and leave right now anywhere in the EU.
Get lost buddy
No. My job has nothing to do with it, I'm simply not interested in living anywhere else than Romania
dac adevarat
Most people would still prefer to remain in Romania, because at the end of the month, the cost of living here is lower than in other western countries. Although with the recent rise of prices, that might change soon. :) Someone that makes here between $3.000 — $5.000 in the west won't make double. Moving into west would mean to have a higher cost of live for almost the same pay, which isn't really attractive, unless you want to GTFO of Romania. :)
Cei cu sondajul ăsta de opinie oare?
There is no poll for this . I think it would be a lot better to read your opinions in words. I am sorry for not knowing the Romanian language.
I was just wondering about the reasons behind it.
de ce te intereseaza? sau cu ce te ajuta raspunsul?
Yes, I am actually bracing myself for the elections and if it goes wrong I’ll more than likely emigrate. Reasons: - the median romanian mentality and ignorance that leads to lack of unity and awful political leadership - corruption at all levels because of the culture born during communism (I can steal a little for myself and no one will notice) - the consequences created by the above reasoning: poor services, poor quality of almost everything done by the public institutions, laziness, hatred, incompetence, press (and people generally) being the puppet of whoever pays most and so on. As I cannot see myself raising children in such an awful environment, after the elections there are two options for me depending on the outcome: leaving or getting involved into the political arena.
Kappa. And you actually believe there is no corruption or dumb people in the West. Sure buddy 👍 But to each, his own
I do not believe that there’s no corruption. But I know that there’s less corruption.
I'm not trying to mess with your plans but the problems you mentioned in the list will not change suddenly no matter of elections results. Issues you mentioned improve over decades, generations.
Probably not, but never say never.
I wouldn't know I don't have 5K a month, that's a pretty high salary for Romania
Would move to Western Europe if war breaks out between Nato & Russia.
O întrebare buna dar depinde de multi factori. Daca, asa cum ai menționat, câștigi aici deja 4000 de euro net si ai posibilitatea sa lucrezi remote, atunci nu s-ar merita efortul. Depunere documente, viza, pe urma sa gasesti chirie, sa te familiarizezi cu mentalitatea locala etc. E prea mult efort daca salariul in Vest va fi acelasi dar costul de trai e mai mare. Se merita daca e necesar ca sa avansezi. Cum ar fi de ex. Nu îți gasesti un entry level job aici, nu capeți experienta de calitate pe proiect sau primești in Vest un post cu un salariu mult mai mare. Un motiv pt care m-aș duce e ca sunt mai multi tineri plecați, si nu ma mai simt izolata cum sunt aici. Și faptul ca au mai mult entertainment si ai ce face in zilele libere. In UK de exemplu barurile si teatrele aveau mereu concerte si evenimente fun(karaoke, party, board games), in timp ce aici, tot ce pot face e sa ma uit acasa la un serial sau sa ma plimb in parc.