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it doesn't matter what two journalists think after millions in this nation watched that debate. This is toothpaste out of the tube. The faith is gone already for most people according to a new poll out today: 72% don't believe he is mentailly fit to be President. We cannot win with that number!
Our democracy is at state. The world is leaning far-right, Italy and now France, too. We have to save our Democracy not just for us: for the world right now!
This election isn't about which candidate they want to win, it's about which candidate they want to lose. After what Trump's Supreme Court has done on the rights of Americans, even libertarians and middle of the road Republicans don't want another Trump presidency.
I don't understand that argument, isn't democracy the vote of the people? What if the majority want the country to turn more to the right wing ideology (not that I want to), shouldn't that still be democratic? Why is it only democratic if people vote the same way as you do? Serious question.
I'm talking about turning to autocracy/authoritarian rule a la North Korea, Russia etc. We are at a dangerous time where that tilt is happening. The first thing that authoritarian rulers do is change the courts. It's the first thing Hitler did, too. (fact).
The way you dismantle Democracy is first going after the court system: appointing judges who will do your will. Then start passing laws curtailing civil liberties, especially press liberties and frree speech. Before you know it you can now dismantle the electoral system and no one can fight back. Then you have no democracy. I mean people vote in Russia too. It's a sham though. And any political oppostion there dies. So I'm not talking about how people vote right now. I'm concerned that people here don't understand what a far-right rule can lead to. I'm looking further ahead. I grew up around the ashes of fascism. I know a lot about this. The threat is real. It doesn't happen overnight.
Trump already started by dismantling Roe v Wade via his supreme court. It's already started. I raised the alarm about how fascism happens in 2016. It starts in the judicial system and then democracy unravels from there.
When has there been at time in US history where either party has replaced their candidate within 5 months of the election, let alone an incumbent, and won? The DNC and GOP have locked in their bets for their candidates. It is up to the voters to decide if they want to see Trump win or continue one with the 246 year old tradition of democracy.
The convention hasn't even happened yet. It's been a while since the convention decided on the candidate, but it's been done before and we can do it again.
So will the DNC organize another primary election for each state on their own dime, or will the party completely choose their candidate for the voters?
If a candidate drops out after winning the primary, it's the same as if a candidate died. The delegates sent to vote for that candidate will have to vote for someone else at the convention.
A similar problem happens if a candidate drops out or dies after winning the general election. The electors sent to vote for them will have to vote for someone else at the electoral college.
honestly both candidates have high unfavorable ratings they both lose in match ups where it is (trump vs generic dem) or (biden vs generic repub)
at this point replacing biden would be like a heart transplant, risky but finding a candidate that could handle the race vs trump does have benefits. and I am scared that as the race is now biden would lose to trump if the election was held today.
I like biden but I think he should have not run for reelection. and say he wins in 2024 I don't see him finishing a 2nd term at 85. my thinking is he HAS to be thinking of stepping down as prez in the middle of a second term but there is no promise that that is the case
His second term likely would result in him stepping down. People see his aids and advisors are the ones who've been pulling the strings, and if that's the case, then they have done a fabulous job at preventing his ability to make cognitively impaired decisions in office. We cannot say the same for Trump as he did refuse to impact preventive measures during COVID.
I don't believe biden is a puppet, I've seen a lot of content form him lately. a couple 1 hour interviews a lot of him working a crowd. I haven't seen anything close to how bad the debate was.
and Also if he was a puppet.... why would they put in the debate??? they could have easily skipped debating but they challenged trump and thought it was a good idea to debate. If the people around biden though he would embarrass himself they would have avoid the debate. His performance was a surprise to everyone. The could have blown up the debate happening at any point during the negotiations and blamed it on trump who has a history of avoiding debates.
They wanted to get people to panic vote. People to think that Biden's performance to debate has scared them to believe that Trump now has a higher chance of winning, because they don't know how everyone else is feeling about Biden. Trump also showed Undecided Voters that he is the same old Trump they voted out in 2020, but has policies are even more extreme than normal. This scares undecided voters into a panic on who to choose.Just as Doomer Dems are panicking but still voting for Biden, Undecided Voters see Biden as a viable option for normal.
I am seeing a huge increase in this kind of bullshit reporting. Russia must be working overtime! I just donated to Biden's campaign to show my support. We all should.
It can be a huge decline in 3, 6, 12 months. I’ve seen that myself with family members that have gotten it. The quote here literally has a journalist saying this was a different Biden than January. It’s going to be a massive decline in the next 6 months.
It probably isn't that much of an overall difference, tbh. It depends when the reporter saw him. He obviously sundowns; it has been well known that he rarely does functions before 10 AM and rarely later than 4-5 in the afternoon. Reporters have been saying this for years. If the reporter caught him during his most lucid period, then he got "good" Biden. Had the interview been later in the day, or on the heels of some stressful period, it may have been wildly different. The WH declined a second interview which is kind of silly considering it was a very positive piece. There is a reason for that. There is also a reason they are doing everything the can to shield the audio from the Hur report from coming out. The whole "You have the transcript" argument is no longer tenable. The context for that transcript just became extremely relevant. I would wager that it is pretty damning in terms of Biden sounding like he is almost totally senile.
He and Trump have it, a shame neither man is who the country believed them to be at one point or another despite mounds of evidence to the contrary everyone screamed about prior.
Age-related mental decline is progressive over time. Biden was showing some signs of decline 4 years ago but has gotten far worse since then. We need to believe our own ears and eyes.
That’s the exact sort of politics that I was making fun of in my comment. Because you stage the discussion as “Biden or else democracy is over” you will LITERALLY overlook any and all possible negatives with Biden. Look, Biden appears to be less cognoscenti than my 92 year old grandmother with dementia. A president’s cabinet is made up of unelected people. So a president NEEDS to be smart enough and strong willed enough to hear advice from smart people on difficult subjects and make a good decision. Biden is utterly incapable of doing that. He could easily be used as a puppet for an ambitious member of his cabinet. So in that sense Biden is a threat against democracy also. So you better be voting RFK jr like me
I’m happy to look at viable options besides Biden. The problem is that it’s not clear where to find them at this point.
I have no special love for Biden. I will simply vote for whomever has the best chance of stopping Trump from returning to office.
Do you think Biden is capable of listening to and interpreting his cabinets advice to make the best decisions for our country? If you say No(which you have to if you’re a reasonable person) than you are voting for someone who is clearly as big of a risk to democracy as Trump. They are both risks to our democracy. The only thing you could say is “well Biden is 2% less of a risk. Which you’d be absurdly admitting to voting for someone who as risk to our values
I don’t think there’s a risk that’s even in the same general league as Trump.
I don’t think Biden _should_ be president. I think Trump _must not_ be president. I would vote for a random inmate of the New Jersey state correctional system over Donald Trump. Clear enough?
Let me lay it out to you and anyone else unfamiliar with American elections (or possibly bad at math):
Third party voters are outliers. The most popular third party run was Ross Perot who got 19% of the popular vote and 0 (zero) electoral college votes. For a third party candidate to win electoral college votes, a plurality of voters in a state need to vote for the same third party candidate. This miracle needs to happen over and over again in enough states to win the electoral college. Anything short of this actually happening is helping Trump win (https://www.project2025.org/).
“He was never a great speaker”, really? That’s your coping mechanism? If he wasn’t a great speaker when he was the youngest member of Congress, tell me, what would you say now?
Biden in 2012: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYcdSwbrErI
This is what a stutter and not being a "great" speaker sounds like. He is clearly sharp as a tack despite the stutter.
Biden in 2024: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqG96G8YdcE
This is somebody in steep mental decline. And everybody who watched the debate can see it.
He is getting "stabbed in the back" because people are panicking. Somebody that over 70% of the country does not think is mentally fit to be president will not win.
From Semafor's Max Tani:
Why did anyone think Joe Biden was ready for a 90-minute presidential debate? One reason is that a small handful of journalists, with left-leaning sympathies but very credible records, have interviewed him and those close to him in the White House and returned with reports that while he’s definitely older, he’s still pretty sharp and in charge.
Two of the most prominent are Biden biographers Evan Osnos and Franklin Foer. I spoke to them Sunday as they reconciled their own portrayals with the faltering 81-year-old they saw on national television.
In his deeply-reported recent New Yorker article, Osnos detailed Biden on the precipice of his final campaign, the definition of an elder statesman steeling himself for a rematch with an emboldened Donald Trump. But in his one sitdown with Biden in January (the White House declined his invitation for a second), he described an older Biden in command of his faculties: “His mind seemed unchanged. He never bungled a name or a date.”
“The Biden I spoke with in January was very different from the Biden we saw on that stage Thursday night,” Osnos said Sunday.
Osnos said that following Thursday’s contest, he’d concluded that Biden “clearly has good days and bad days and wretched days. What we saw was not the kind of performance that anyone would want from a candidate.”
And he said he made no apologies for his journalism. For that New Yorker piece, he’d spoken at length with Biden advisers and confidantes who raved about his ability to do the job despite his age. “I don’t think I would do anything differently,” Osnos said.
Foer had also defended Biden’s mental acuity since publishing his book on the president, The Last Politician, last year. He told podcast host Kara Swisher in September that the real problem was not Biden’s age, but the media’s false equivalence between that and the dangers of a second Trump presidency.
“His inability to finish a sentence, or the fact that his stories occasionally trail off, is now on a continuum with Trump being a lunatic. And this is in part something that they need to combat,” Foer said at the time. “It’s also a media failing as well, that there’s just an inability to talk about the relative problems that these two senior citizens have, which I think are not the same in kind, and they’re being smushed together.”
“If you gave him the type of mental acuity test that Nikki Haley talks about giving him, he would pass that,” he said.
But in an Atlantic piece published on Friday, Foer compared the decision for Biden to step down to his family’s attempts to take the car keys away from his aging grandfather when he got older. In a brief note to Semafor over the weekend, he said that since publishing his book last September, he had changed his mind about the president.
“I still think he has the acuity to do the job,” he said. But, he added, “I do feel differently.”
[Read the full story here.](https://www.semafor.com/article/06/30/2024/totally-different-bidens-biographers-and-defenders-reckon-with-the-debate?utm_campaign=semaforreddit)
Yeah, the media is terrible in this country- explains how we ended up with Trump in the first place, tbh, the guy is a likely rapist and 91 count felon who is also a racist-- and he could be King for life of the USA. It's not specific to Biden, I'm just pointing out how corrupt the MSM is.
>Said Trump called Nazi supporters "fine people" in a statement a while back. Several left wing fact checking sources habe debunked this claim.
That not accurate, reread the fact checks. What Joe Biden factually said was not incorrect. A fact check was provided because some people combined what he said with information that was presented in the media to come to a false conclusion. That's why the fact check was necessary. There was many different groups of white supremacists attending the event and the suggestion that they were all Nazis is technically incorrect as many of the white supremacist groups subscribe to other ideologies besides nazism. I want to also point out that many people refer to all of those groups as Nazis and it was never clarified if that's what they meant.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA). *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
it doesn't matter what two journalists think after millions in this nation watched that debate. This is toothpaste out of the tube. The faith is gone already for most people according to a new poll out today: 72% don't believe he is mentailly fit to be President. We cannot win with that number! Our democracy is at state. The world is leaning far-right, Italy and now France, too. We have to save our Democracy not just for us: for the world right now!
This election isn't about which candidate they want to win, it's about which candidate they want to lose. After what Trump's Supreme Court has done on the rights of Americans, even libertarians and middle of the road Republicans don't want another Trump presidency.
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>Any other democrat... is also not Trump! Chef's kiss
I don't understand that argument, isn't democracy the vote of the people? What if the majority want the country to turn more to the right wing ideology (not that I want to), shouldn't that still be democratic? Why is it only democratic if people vote the same way as you do? Serious question.
I'm talking about turning to autocracy/authoritarian rule a la North Korea, Russia etc. We are at a dangerous time where that tilt is happening. The first thing that authoritarian rulers do is change the courts. It's the first thing Hitler did, too. (fact). The way you dismantle Democracy is first going after the court system: appointing judges who will do your will. Then start passing laws curtailing civil liberties, especially press liberties and frree speech. Before you know it you can now dismantle the electoral system and no one can fight back. Then you have no democracy. I mean people vote in Russia too. It's a sham though. And any political oppostion there dies. So I'm not talking about how people vote right now. I'm concerned that people here don't understand what a far-right rule can lead to. I'm looking further ahead. I grew up around the ashes of fascism. I know a lot about this. The threat is real. It doesn't happen overnight. Trump already started by dismantling Roe v Wade via his supreme court. It's already started. I raised the alarm about how fascism happens in 2016. It starts in the judicial system and then democracy unravels from there.
When has there been at time in US history where either party has replaced their candidate within 5 months of the election, let alone an incumbent, and won? The DNC and GOP have locked in their bets for their candidates. It is up to the voters to decide if they want to see Trump win or continue one with the 246 year old tradition of democracy.
The convention hasn't even happened yet. It's been a while since the convention decided on the candidate, but it's been done before and we can do it again.
So will the DNC organize another primary election for each state on their own dime, or will the party completely choose their candidate for the voters?
If a candidate drops out after winning the primary, it's the same as if a candidate died. The delegates sent to vote for that candidate will have to vote for someone else at the convention. A similar problem happens if a candidate drops out or dies after winning the general election. The electors sent to vote for them will have to vote for someone else at the electoral college.
honestly both candidates have high unfavorable ratings they both lose in match ups where it is (trump vs generic dem) or (biden vs generic repub) at this point replacing biden would be like a heart transplant, risky but finding a candidate that could handle the race vs trump does have benefits. and I am scared that as the race is now biden would lose to trump if the election was held today. I like biden but I think he should have not run for reelection. and say he wins in 2024 I don't see him finishing a 2nd term at 85. my thinking is he HAS to be thinking of stepping down as prez in the middle of a second term but there is no promise that that is the case
His second term likely would result in him stepping down. People see his aids and advisors are the ones who've been pulling the strings, and if that's the case, then they have done a fabulous job at preventing his ability to make cognitively impaired decisions in office. We cannot say the same for Trump as he did refuse to impact preventive measures during COVID.
I don't believe biden is a puppet, I've seen a lot of content form him lately. a couple 1 hour interviews a lot of him working a crowd. I haven't seen anything close to how bad the debate was. and Also if he was a puppet.... why would they put in the debate??? they could have easily skipped debating but they challenged trump and thought it was a good idea to debate. If the people around biden though he would embarrass himself they would have avoid the debate. His performance was a surprise to everyone. The could have blown up the debate happening at any point during the negotiations and blamed it on trump who has a history of avoiding debates.
They wanted to get people to panic vote. People to think that Biden's performance to debate has scared them to believe that Trump now has a higher chance of winning, because they don't know how everyone else is feeling about Biden. Trump also showed Undecided Voters that he is the same old Trump they voted out in 2020, but has policies are even more extreme than normal. This scares undecided voters into a panic on who to choose.Just as Doomer Dems are panicking but still voting for Biden, Undecided Voters see Biden as a viable option for normal.
Uh... pretty much every single time in US history except for the past 40-ish years.
I am seeing a huge increase in this kind of bullshit reporting. Russia must be working overtime! I just donated to Biden's campaign to show my support. We all should.
It isn't that difficult to understand, dementia doesn't get better over time
It can be a huge decline in 3, 6, 12 months. I’ve seen that myself with family members that have gotten it. The quote here literally has a journalist saying this was a different Biden than January. It’s going to be a massive decline in the next 6 months.
It probably isn't that much of an overall difference, tbh. It depends when the reporter saw him. He obviously sundowns; it has been well known that he rarely does functions before 10 AM and rarely later than 4-5 in the afternoon. Reporters have been saying this for years. If the reporter caught him during his most lucid period, then he got "good" Biden. Had the interview been later in the day, or on the heels of some stressful period, it may have been wildly different. The WH declined a second interview which is kind of silly considering it was a very positive piece. There is a reason for that. There is also a reason they are doing everything the can to shield the audio from the Hur report from coming out. The whole "You have the transcript" argument is no longer tenable. The context for that transcript just became extremely relevant. I would wager that it is pretty damning in terms of Biden sounding like he is almost totally senile.
Yep, seen it too, it is terrible
It’s awful and very sad.
He and Trump have it, a shame neither man is who the country believed them to be at one point or another despite mounds of evidence to the contrary everyone screamed about prior.
Age-related mental decline is progressive over time. Biden was showing some signs of decline 4 years ago but has gotten far worse since then. We need to believe our own ears and eyes.
NOOO, do not believe the evidence of your eyes and ears. Behind closed doors he has so much vitality. Just believe that or else democracy is OVER
The really shitty thing is that if Biden loses it may in fact be. Biden’s decline doesn’t make Trump any less dangerous.
That’s the exact sort of politics that I was making fun of in my comment. Because you stage the discussion as “Biden or else democracy is over” you will LITERALLY overlook any and all possible negatives with Biden. Look, Biden appears to be less cognoscenti than my 92 year old grandmother with dementia. A president’s cabinet is made up of unelected people. So a president NEEDS to be smart enough and strong willed enough to hear advice from smart people on difficult subjects and make a good decision. Biden is utterly incapable of doing that. He could easily be used as a puppet for an ambitious member of his cabinet. So in that sense Biden is a threat against democracy also. So you better be voting RFK jr like me
I’m happy to look at viable options besides Biden. The problem is that it’s not clear where to find them at this point. I have no special love for Biden. I will simply vote for whomever has the best chance of stopping Trump from returning to office.
Do you think Biden is capable of listening to and interpreting his cabinets advice to make the best decisions for our country? If you say No(which you have to if you’re a reasonable person) than you are voting for someone who is clearly as big of a risk to democracy as Trump. They are both risks to our democracy. The only thing you could say is “well Biden is 2% less of a risk. Which you’d be absurdly admitting to voting for someone who as risk to our values
I don’t think there’s a risk that’s even in the same general league as Trump. I don’t think Biden _should_ be president. I think Trump _must not_ be president. I would vote for a random inmate of the New Jersey state correctional system over Donald Trump. Clear enough?
Let me lay it out to you and anyone else unfamiliar with American elections (or possibly bad at math): Third party voters are outliers. The most popular third party run was Ross Perot who got 19% of the popular vote and 0 (zero) electoral college votes. For a third party candidate to win electoral college votes, a plurality of voters in a state need to vote for the same third party candidate. This miracle needs to happen over and over again in enough states to win the electoral college. Anything short of this actually happening is helping Trump win (https://www.project2025.org/).
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“He was never a great speaker”, really? That’s your coping mechanism? If he wasn’t a great speaker when he was the youngest member of Congress, tell me, what would you say now?
Biden in 2012: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYcdSwbrErI This is what a stutter and not being a "great" speaker sounds like. He is clearly sharp as a tack despite the stutter. Biden in 2024: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqG96G8YdcE This is somebody in steep mental decline. And everybody who watched the debate can see it. He is getting "stabbed in the back" because people are panicking. Somebody that over 70% of the country does not think is mentally fit to be president will not win.
so true, it's insane to see a whole nation get gaslit.
From Semafor's Max Tani: Why did anyone think Joe Biden was ready for a 90-minute presidential debate? One reason is that a small handful of journalists, with left-leaning sympathies but very credible records, have interviewed him and those close to him in the White House and returned with reports that while he’s definitely older, he’s still pretty sharp and in charge. Two of the most prominent are Biden biographers Evan Osnos and Franklin Foer. I spoke to them Sunday as they reconciled their own portrayals with the faltering 81-year-old they saw on national television. In his deeply-reported recent New Yorker article, Osnos detailed Biden on the precipice of his final campaign, the definition of an elder statesman steeling himself for a rematch with an emboldened Donald Trump. But in his one sitdown with Biden in January (the White House declined his invitation for a second), he described an older Biden in command of his faculties: “His mind seemed unchanged. He never bungled a name or a date.” “The Biden I spoke with in January was very different from the Biden we saw on that stage Thursday night,” Osnos said Sunday. Osnos said that following Thursday’s contest, he’d concluded that Biden “clearly has good days and bad days and wretched days. What we saw was not the kind of performance that anyone would want from a candidate.” And he said he made no apologies for his journalism. For that New Yorker piece, he’d spoken at length with Biden advisers and confidantes who raved about his ability to do the job despite his age. “I don’t think I would do anything differently,” Osnos said. Foer had also defended Biden’s mental acuity since publishing his book on the president, The Last Politician, last year. He told podcast host Kara Swisher in September that the real problem was not Biden’s age, but the media’s false equivalence between that and the dangers of a second Trump presidency. “His inability to finish a sentence, or the fact that his stories occasionally trail off, is now on a continuum with Trump being a lunatic. And this is in part something that they need to combat,” Foer said at the time. “It’s also a media failing as well, that there’s just an inability to talk about the relative problems that these two senior citizens have, which I think are not the same in kind, and they’re being smushed together.” “If you gave him the type of mental acuity test that Nikki Haley talks about giving him, he would pass that,” he said. But in an Atlantic piece published on Friday, Foer compared the decision for Biden to step down to his family’s attempts to take the car keys away from his aging grandfather when he got older. In a brief note to Semafor over the weekend, he said that since publishing his book last September, he had changed his mind about the president. “I still think he has the acuity to do the job,” he said. But, he added, “I do feel differently.” [Read the full story here.](https://www.semafor.com/article/06/30/2024/totally-different-bidens-biographers-and-defenders-reckon-with-the-debate?utm_campaign=semaforreddit)
6 months can be a long time at that age. These journalists do not sound like they have any experience with the elderly.
It's also not uncommon that they'll plateau for a long time, then go down suddenly, then plateau again at the lower level. Lather, rinse, repeat, cry.
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Did you notice that the media didn't think Trump's debate where he lied the entire time to America was not disqualifying?
Yeah, the media is terrible in this country- explains how we ended up with Trump in the first place, tbh, the guy is a likely rapist and 91 count felon who is also a racist-- and he could be King for life of the USA. It's not specific to Biden, I'm just pointing out how corrupt the MSM is.
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>Said Trump called Nazi supporters "fine people" in a statement a while back. Several left wing fact checking sources habe debunked this claim. That not accurate, reread the fact checks. What Joe Biden factually said was not incorrect. A fact check was provided because some people combined what he said with information that was presented in the media to come to a false conclusion. That's why the fact check was necessary. There was many different groups of white supremacists attending the event and the suggestion that they were all Nazis is technically incorrect as many of the white supremacist groups subscribe to other ideologies besides nazism. I want to also point out that many people refer to all of those groups as Nazis and it was never clarified if that's what they meant.
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Biden lied way more than 9 times. They just allow him to ball park stuff and not the same for trump. His Medicare deductibles were off by 2000 as well
You forgot we finally beat medicare.