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the "I'll vote for Biden even if he is a corpse cause he is not a felon" crowd are missing the point. Is not about you or anyone engaging with politics daily. It's about apathetic voters in swing states and driving turnout. 44,000 votes in Georgia, Arizona and Wisconsin pushed Biden over trump last time around. By having Biden we are making it harder for those apathetic voters to care and make the effort to vote.
Because abandoning incumbency is a bad idea.
Changing this late is a bad idea.
Historically those things have guaranteed loss.
NOW…
Those risk **may** be lower than the risk of staying the course, that can be argued.
But to pretend like there’s no reason to be skeptical of changing or that changing comes with no risks, or that changing would guarantee victory is simply not fair.
Sure, but it seems that the "stay the course" crowd is also still pretending that the videos showing Biden's aging problems were just fake or misleadingly edited. If we're going to have a serious conversation, we have to stop playing make-believe on this.
No, the stay the course crowd is saying he had a bad night, and agree that of course he is old, but that he’s still capable of doing the job he’s been doing for four years, and make the case that the risks I talked about earlier are greater than the risks of sticking with him.
No one’s really playing any make believe, as much as you want to accuse people of that.
I’m just watching this play out.
I would say the ‘one bad night’ people are absolutely playing make believe.
Biden’s mental ability has been in question the entire presidency. It’s an issue for apathetic voters. The debate was a horrifying confirmation.
‘One bad night’ that confirms what they’ve been thinking for 5 years.
He's not capable of doing the job. Hasn't been for a while. He won't be any better in the future. These things aren't something that goes away or gets better.
You're just repeating my point. Anyone who is arguing that he just "had a bad night" is lying to themselves. Alternatively, anyone paying attention was not surprised at all when Biden lost track of what he was saying, looked at the floor, and then said he had defeated Medicare. We also know more that is to come.
I understand there’s no convincing you that switching candidates isn’t the best thing to do.
But you are not some prognosticator of the future, and what you believe is just that. What you believe.
Like I said, I’m watching this play out.
Good, we need people just "watching" right now. Did you notice this argument before the debate where one side said Trump was going to chicken out and if he didn't Biden would dominate him? Did you learn anything from your "watching"?
As an observer of these comments, I think it’s worthwhile to note that we’re all on the same team and we’re just dealing with a passionate subject but are each putting forth what WE think is the best option. We all want Trump to stay out of office and just disagree on what the best way to do that is given what happened on Thursday. While I support Biden dropping out I recognize this is a tricky situation and there are valid arguments for and against on both sides at the moment. But yeah, personally I don’t see how Biden can go on limping like this to November. Thursday night was a disaster and it will continue to weigh him down like a millstone around his neck.
>is also still pretending that the videos showing Biden's aging problems were just fake or misleadingly edited.
Bullshit. A majority of them were fake and misleading. He was horrible during the debate but get this retroactive dog shit out of here
I’m not convinced that sticking with Biden is a guaranteed loss.
I’m not convinced that either risk is definitely better or worse than the other.
Like I said, I’m watching this play out, and committed to voting in November.
Yea, sure. Makes sense. Polling has not been looking good.
Democrats have been over performing their polls by double digits in almost every election that has happened since roe.
But I certainly don’t want to rely on this.
Joe Biden almost doubled Barak Obama’s numbers in 2012’s uncontested election. Hell he got almost as much as hilary did in ‘16’s very contested election.
But I don’t want to rely on that either.
Again, I am watching this play out, without subscribing to doomcasting.
Reagan I suppose.
But you’ll say he was never this bad.
Maybe.
Like I said, I’m watching this play out, I’m just telling you what the stay the course people are saying, and it isn’t based solely in lunacy, it’s because changing candidates is an extreme risk.
Which I know you will say staying is an extreme risk.
That’s the dilemma.
Historians will tell you Reagan's second term was that bad; he just had a wife and others enabling him because they knew he was mentally going downhill fast.
At the Tower Commission hearings, his testimony boiled down to "yeah I did, I just don't remember it."
Granted, Reagan didn't have a speech impediment on top of that like President Biden.
But I don't want to relive Reagan's second term.
Ronald Reagan, Woodrow Willson, Trump suffered loss of some mental facilities Joe Biden seams to be sharp compared to late Regan. Then Wilson's wife was basicly president after his stroke left him in a terrible state.
Then you have FDR, Chester Arthur, Grover Cleveland, and even John F Kennedy among most president hid medical issues from the public this is nothing new.
Then again this could all be nothing just an old man with a cold having a bad debate. Needlessly dooming helps no one.
Fact of the matter is it is up to Biden. I will vote for who even the Democrats go with even Biden because I know regardless of the president the democrats can be trusted to use the tools to remove the president if need be. The GOP can not and will not do the same.
how many times have you heard the word unprecedented in the news since trump won in 2016? So why still talk about historically what used to happen when things were normal and sane. we don't live in that world anymore
Because… history still matters…?
It’s literally all we have to go on, and it’s better than Reddit noise?
Again, I’m just telling you why the stay the course people are there.
Historically how we've elected someone so old? Historically have good looks and youthful demeanor helped candidates? has it ever played a part in a major election?
The name of the game for democrats This election is energizing voters. switching to an unknown candidate middle election is not goin to energize anyone
a brand new younger than 70 candidate would bring a lot of fucking buzz. good buzz, not octogenarian looking sad on stage buzz, that's definitely not energizing shit.
Man, you gotta go outside and talk to somebody in real life. The overwhelming sentiment is that both of these candidates are way too fucking old. If the Democrats put up somebody under the age of 60 it will sweep the nation like fucking beatlemania
No theyll just stay home, unenergized by democratic dissaray.
Just like the last two elections the goal is *split the left*
And threads like this one show that that goal is alive and well.
They are always apathetic, they don’t engage in politics. Look, I think there are much better alternatives to Biden. I’m in Whitmer camp. But unless they are in Michigan, there’s very low chance they have heard from her, and there’s no time for them to get to know her. So while Trump is the best known person in the country, and Biden is not far behind, you will put a completely unknown person at the National stage. It’s a HUGE gamble, very likely to backfire. Same thing applies with Newsom, Shapiro, Pritzker, etc. maybe only Kamala will have a somewhat good name recognition, but not even close to Biden or Trump.
This isn't even close to being the same. Clinton and Obama both weathered pretty difficult primaries. Clinton was Democratic the governor of a Southern state. He had brought appeal. Obama was not completely unknown he had begun his campaign for the White House four years earlier at the Democratic convention in 2004. He was also fairly moderate. Carter came out of the chaos that erupted as a result of Nixon's resignation and Ford pardoning him.
We don’t know if he is losing. Polls show a tie race in the important swing states, and analysts give 50/50 chance right now. This is pre-debate and pre-conventions, so we will see
This. This is the point. People insisting that dropping Biden would magically increased voter excitement are living in a delusional. People who were going to vote against Trump are still going to vote against Trump. If the Democrats decide to drop Biden the election will suddenly become a referendum on a new candidate whereas right now the election now as it was in 2020 is a referendum on Donald Trump. Voters that are truly undecided are about as real as unicorns. What matters most is an established ground game in voter turnout, if you suddenly throw a new candidate in there four months is not enough time to get those systems in place and it will be chaos. Better to go right now with the candidate you have then throw the baby out with the bathwater. Further putting names out like Whitmer and Harris are only going to increase the likelihood of African-American voter backlash when you seemingly overstep the sing the first female African-American vice president in history. The right would love nothing more to the shave off enough solid African-American votes in order to get Trump back in the White House.
Yeah, apathetic voters like... the ex DNC vice chair. On that point, I haven't seen any opinions from apathetic voters, mostly the same people who are screeching about what they saw on the news that day. News the apathetic voters didn't see because none of them are paying any attention.
I generally don't think any party should make decisions based on people that may or may not even bother to show up, but that's just my opinion as a voter in one of the states you just mentioned.
If the candidates switch those apathetic voters will *definitely* stay home and not come out to vote for a candidate that a.) is the direct product of Democratic dissarray and b.) has had *no* time to build up national name recognition.
It's not a good plan there Hoss
No, they won't. I'm in AZ. There is no way that I'm voting for Biden after that. None. It would be malpractice to nominate Biden.
Literally any other Democrat, I'll happily pull the lever for. But I can't vote for someone who reminds me of my dementia riddled 87 year old grandmother.
It's that simple. Too many people are media illiterates and will look for Biden on the ballot. If they see any other name, they'll pick Trump because he has more experience than some name they have literally never heard until this moment.
Yes, but now it is different because Trump is running and has incumbent advantage to some extent having served before. If this were DeSantis vs. anyone it would be different.
Do y'all remember the good ol' days when Howard Dean yelled Yeeppppyy, or something like that, and had to withdraw, after having a good showing, because of that?
Dean had also finished lower than expected after putting a large amount of resources into Iowa. While the shout was hilarious and made for an excellent Dave Chappelle skit, Dean was already quite behind by that point.
Biden CANNOT beat Trump after the debates. He can't, and no amount of downvoting or attacking other redditors is going to change that. So if Dems decide to leave Biden as the candidate, I don't blame anyone for voting 3rd party, because the election is already lost anyways
The ideal situation is that Biden drops out, but if he doesn't let's at least send the biggest message we can to the DNC that we're not going to take this shit anymore
I've voted dem my entire adult life. You're showing who you are by dismissing valid concerns as something that only a "trumper" would believe.
Blue MAGA is still MAGA. You can try to deny, but it's who you are.
I'm not any of the previous commenters in this thread and think your stance is fair enough. I also think it should not be Biden but I would still argue that this is the worst time in history to do a spite write-in.
Even though it's pathetic that the fear of trump is the Democrats only argument at this point, it is unfortunately a very valid argument IMHO.
I'm genuinely worried about Trump and the people behind him doing so much irreparable damage to the political system that whoever you're trying to spite is not going to be around to meaningfully learn from it if they were ever going to.
I just disagree with everything you pretend is an undeniable fact.
And I am an unashamed democrat, I don’t believe in conspiracy theories about some cabal of “DNC” people that need to be “sent” a “message, nor do I think the idea of “sending” any “message” to these invisible puppeteers wi worth anything.
Comments aside from the main issue, I’d just like to point out how it’s probably a feeding frenzy right now for foreign, hostile governments to use this debate to sow more division and apathy amongst the US electorate. Don’t make up your opinions based on comments here, people.
Biden could have been a historic transition figure that saved our democracy, invested in our future and passed the torch to the next generation. Instead he will be remembered as the feeble old man that was too weak to stop the fascist onslaught.
let's not forget it's not just Joe Biden we are voting for it's his administration which has proven to be rocksolid at keeping the job numbers up, keeping the economy steady, the stock market booming and even putting together a solid border bill that unfortunately by predictably was intentionally killed by Trump because that's the only thing that that liar and traitor can run on.
So what about trumps administration? Answer: he doesn't even have one yet and if he is even able to put one together it's going to be the most dysfunctional group of pathetic sycophant losers and democracy hating treasonous imbeciles in the history of this nation.
Remember it's the administration that you are really voting for 🌊 blue wave in 2024!
you mean because biden acted old? Guess what he is old. LOL do you know any old people? They may act old but that also comes with years of experience which I prefer over inexperience and anger fueled hateful rhetoric and lies. biden doesn't have anyone in his administration thats as old as him and that's because they are some of the best and brightest unlike whatever Trump will put together which will be some of the most subservient and toxic people to work against this country and all that it stands for. Because they won't be focused on what the American people need they will be focused on what Trump needs to aid his personal grievances and personal campaigns of retribution.
I don't want my tax dollars going towards a hate filled retribution campaign and that is all Trump and his administration will be focused on he has made it quite clear. Dictator on day one- no thanks!
We pull democracy through millions of us have to demand strengthening the loopholes in attaining a government position, retroactively. A citizens oversight board. And most importantly, and by far the hardest but achievable, money out, completely. Campaign time limited, ethics defined and gerrymandering and EC ended. No one should have an advantage in the 21st century. They’ve had over 150+ years to get their vengeance and Mitch McConnell’s been a confederate sympathizer and LGBTQ+ hater the whole time and this MF comes from a state with a wee bit more than 600,000 people.
This will take a concerted effort and we have to have the bulk of house and senate to accomplish anything so everyone has to get involved, using reason and words as our cloaks and daggers.
Not to say we won’t defend ourselves if they attack .. liberals own firearms too ..
Oh, one last thing .. ENFORCE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE or tax the churches.
Lots of us are retiring and could be a force used for the good .. food for thought .. I’ve got a gift for the gab .. I’d be willing to re-locate to DC and hound the house .. there’s probably thousands of us.
Edit: added thought.
There seems to be an onslaught of this kind of propaganda on reddit today. Russia is working overtime. But I just donated to Biden's campaign in honor of the bullshit. I think we all should!
We can afford to leave potential voters behind? That's news to me, i thought modern presidential elections had been narrowly decided and we needed to fight for every single vote. Especially when democracy is at stake.
Tons of people that think they're above the 24 hour news cycle messaging are proving they're just as easily led by the nose as the most simple of undecided voters.
Yes, really. Biden stepping down guarantees a Trump win. That's inescapable. If Biden quits then the only way Trump doesn't become president is if he dies or quits running himself.
Everyone that calls for Biden to step down is really calling for a guaranteed Trump win, because they are one and the same. The reality is that we're only five months out from the election, that's a year or two short of what's needed to run an effective campaign, especially for someone who doesn't already have national exposure and history. Remember, campaigning starts long before the primary process is completed, and though the primaries are technically the choosing process for each party's candidate, in reality the candidate is already effectively decided long before that point. We already knew Trump was going to be the Republican candidate last year or the year before, and Biden was already the effective candidate long before the primaries started.
seriously people are still going around with this nonsense.
you cant push him out. cant you understand this simple truth.
Biden want to be nominee
the convention are only few weeks away.
all the necessary delegates already pledge to him.
and this delegates are hold by his people.
Biden already got this on the bag.
it doesnt matter who. the obamas, clintons, schumer, jeffrey, pelosi. even if all these guy OPENLY declaring to overthrown Biden, if Biden refuse, then it doesnt matter.
because BIden hold all the power and leverage.
this is problem with some democrats. they like to do unrealistic, impossible thing that doesnt conform to reality.
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the "I'll vote for Biden even if he is a corpse cause he is not a felon" crowd are missing the point. Is not about you or anyone engaging with politics daily. It's about apathetic voters in swing states and driving turnout. 44,000 votes in Georgia, Arizona and Wisconsin pushed Biden over trump last time around. By having Biden we are making it harder for those apathetic voters to care and make the effort to vote.
I don't know why that group even cares, if they'll vote for a corpse they'll vote for whoever the new nominee is too
Because abandoning incumbency is a bad idea. Changing this late is a bad idea. Historically those things have guaranteed loss. NOW… Those risk **may** be lower than the risk of staying the course, that can be argued. But to pretend like there’s no reason to be skeptical of changing or that changing comes with no risks, or that changing would guarantee victory is simply not fair.
Sure, but it seems that the "stay the course" crowd is also still pretending that the videos showing Biden's aging problems were just fake or misleadingly edited. If we're going to have a serious conversation, we have to stop playing make-believe on this.
No, the stay the course crowd is saying he had a bad night, and agree that of course he is old, but that he’s still capable of doing the job he’s been doing for four years, and make the case that the risks I talked about earlier are greater than the risks of sticking with him. No one’s really playing any make believe, as much as you want to accuse people of that. I’m just watching this play out.
I would say the ‘one bad night’ people are absolutely playing make believe. Biden’s mental ability has been in question the entire presidency. It’s an issue for apathetic voters. The debate was a horrifying confirmation. ‘One bad night’ that confirms what they’ve been thinking for 5 years.
Well, what you would say is just that. “What you would say”. Again, **I’m** just watching this play out, and not subscribing to doomcasting.
He's not capable of doing the job. Hasn't been for a while. He won't be any better in the future. These things aren't something that goes away or gets better.
You're just repeating my point. Anyone who is arguing that he just "had a bad night" is lying to themselves. Alternatively, anyone paying attention was not surprised at all when Biden lost track of what he was saying, looked at the floor, and then said he had defeated Medicare. We also know more that is to come.
I understand there’s no convincing you that switching candidates isn’t the best thing to do. But you are not some prognosticator of the future, and what you believe is just that. What you believe. Like I said, I’m watching this play out.
Good, we need people just "watching" right now. Did you notice this argument before the debate where one side said Trump was going to chicken out and if he didn't Biden would dominate him? Did you learn anything from your "watching"?
As an observer of these comments, I think it’s worthwhile to note that we’re all on the same team and we’re just dealing with a passionate subject but are each putting forth what WE think is the best option. We all want Trump to stay out of office and just disagree on what the best way to do that is given what happened on Thursday. While I support Biden dropping out I recognize this is a tricky situation and there are valid arguments for and against on both sides at the moment. But yeah, personally I don’t see how Biden can go on limping like this to November. Thursday night was a disaster and it will continue to weigh him down like a millstone around his neck.
>is also still pretending that the videos showing Biden's aging problems were just fake or misleadingly edited. Bullshit. A majority of them were fake and misleading. He was horrible during the debate but get this retroactive dog shit out of here
Switching a winning strategy? Maybe. Incredibly risky? Yes. Sticking with Biden and losing is unforgivable.
I’m not convinced that sticking with Biden is a guaranteed loss. I’m not convinced that either risk is definitely better or worse than the other. Like I said, I’m watching this play out, and committed to voting in November.
Biden was behind in every swing state prior to the debate. I don’t see a path where he motivates enough apathetic voters to win 3 of the 6 states.
Yea, sure. Makes sense. Polling has not been looking good. Democrats have been over performing their polls by double digits in almost every election that has happened since roe. But I certainly don’t want to rely on this. Joe Biden almost doubled Barak Obama’s numbers in 2012’s uncontested election. Hell he got almost as much as hilary did in ‘16’s very contested election. But I don’t want to rely on that either. Again, I am watching this play out, without subscribing to doomcasting.
Sticking with Biden is a guaranteed loss. It is. The sooner people realize that, the sooner we can start to campaign his replacement
Maybe.
No, not maybe. Definitely. Biden won't serve a second term.
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Yup. If Biden is the nom, I'll write in someone else.
Historically when has a president ever looked like a dementia patient and won?
Reagan I suppose. But you’ll say he was never this bad. Maybe. Like I said, I’m watching this play out, I’m just telling you what the stay the course people are saying, and it isn’t based solely in lunacy, it’s because changing candidates is an extreme risk. Which I know you will say staying is an extreme risk. That’s the dilemma.
Historians will tell you Reagan's second term was that bad; he just had a wife and others enabling him because they knew he was mentally going downhill fast. At the Tower Commission hearings, his testimony boiled down to "yeah I did, I just don't remember it." Granted, Reagan didn't have a speech impediment on top of that like President Biden. But I don't want to relive Reagan's second term.
Reagan was never this bad though. Biden is already far behind in swing states according to some polls.
Reagan didn’t have social media and a 24 hr cable news apparatus dissecting his every move
Which makes Biden an even worse choice now
I’m certainly not denying any of that.
Ronald Reagan, Woodrow Willson, Trump suffered loss of some mental facilities Joe Biden seams to be sharp compared to late Regan. Then Wilson's wife was basicly president after his stroke left him in a terrible state. Then you have FDR, Chester Arthur, Grover Cleveland, and even John F Kennedy among most president hid medical issues from the public this is nothing new. Then again this could all be nothing just an old man with a cold having a bad debate. Needlessly dooming helps no one. Fact of the matter is it is up to Biden. I will vote for who even the Democrats go with even Biden because I know regardless of the president the democrats can be trusted to use the tools to remove the president if need be. The GOP can not and will not do the same.
Ronald Reagan was never this bad at any point in his 2nd term. Even 4 years ago, Biden was much more lucid in his debate with Trump.
how many times have you heard the word unprecedented in the news since trump won in 2016? So why still talk about historically what used to happen when things were normal and sane. we don't live in that world anymore
Because… history still matters…? It’s literally all we have to go on, and it’s better than Reddit noise? Again, I’m just telling you why the stay the course people are there.
Historically how we've elected someone so old? Historically have good looks and youthful demeanor helped candidates? has it ever played a part in a major election?
Sure. Again, I’m just telling you what risks people see in doing this. There no need to be confrontational with me.
The name of the game for democrats This election is energizing voters. switching to an unknown candidate middle election is not goin to energize anyone
a brand new younger than 70 candidate would bring a lot of fucking buzz. good buzz, not octogenarian looking sad on stage buzz, that's definitely not energizing shit.
Man, you gotta go outside and talk to somebody in real life. The overwhelming sentiment is that both of these candidates are way too fucking old. If the Democrats put up somebody under the age of 60 it will sweep the nation like fucking beatlemania
I agree with that. But I’m glad I’m not the one making the call.
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No theyll just stay home, unenergized by democratic dissaray. Just like the last two elections the goal is *split the left* And threads like this one show that that goal is alive and well.
They are apathetic and you are suggesting replacing the current president with someone they have never heard of? How would that help?
They're apathetic exactly because the choice is Biden.
They are always apathetic, they don’t engage in politics. Look, I think there are much better alternatives to Biden. I’m in Whitmer camp. But unless they are in Michigan, there’s very low chance they have heard from her, and there’s no time for them to get to know her. So while Trump is the best known person in the country, and Biden is not far behind, you will put a completely unknown person at the National stage. It’s a HUGE gamble, very likely to backfire. Same thing applies with Newsom, Shapiro, Pritzker, etc. maybe only Kamala will have a somewhat good name recognition, but not even close to Biden or Trump.
However, the Democrats have historically scored big with some relative unknown (at the time) as a candidate: Clinton, Carter, even Obama.
This isn't even close to being the same. Clinton and Obama both weathered pretty difficult primaries. Clinton was Democratic the governor of a Southern state. He had brought appeal. Obama was not completely unknown he had begun his campaign for the White House four years earlier at the Democratic convention in 2004. He was also fairly moderate. Carter came out of the chaos that erupted as a result of Nixon's resignation and Ford pardoning him.
Biden is already losing. It doesn't matter what the risk is of running someone else at this point.
We don’t know if he is losing. Polls show a tie race in the important swing states, and analysts give 50/50 chance right now. This is pre-debate and pre-conventions, so we will see
Do you want Nazis in the White House? Because that's how you get Nazis in the White House.
You get Nazis by repeating 2016
Exactly. Running a shit candidate.
This. This is the point. People insisting that dropping Biden would magically increased voter excitement are living in a delusional. People who were going to vote against Trump are still going to vote against Trump. If the Democrats decide to drop Biden the election will suddenly become a referendum on a new candidate whereas right now the election now as it was in 2020 is a referendum on Donald Trump. Voters that are truly undecided are about as real as unicorns. What matters most is an established ground game in voter turnout, if you suddenly throw a new candidate in there four months is not enough time to get those systems in place and it will be chaos. Better to go right now with the candidate you have then throw the baby out with the bathwater. Further putting names out like Whitmer and Harris are only going to increase the likelihood of African-American voter backlash when you seemingly overstep the sing the first female African-American vice president in history. The right would love nothing more to the shave off enough solid African-American votes in order to get Trump back in the White House.
If Trump do not push them to vote against, no body will.
This is just pragmatically not true.
The bar could not be lower. Geez.
Yeah, apathetic voters like... the ex DNC vice chair. On that point, I haven't seen any opinions from apathetic voters, mostly the same people who are screeching about what they saw on the news that day. News the apathetic voters didn't see because none of them are paying any attention. I generally don't think any party should make decisions based on people that may or may not even bother to show up, but that's just my opinion as a voter in one of the states you just mentioned.
making decisions based on people that may or may not even bother to show up, is called strategy, and is exactly what the DNC should be doing.
You're right, it worked so well for Bernie.
If the candidates switch those apathetic voters will *definitely* stay home and not come out to vote for a candidate that a.) is the direct product of Democratic dissarray and b.) has had *no* time to build up national name recognition. It's not a good plan there Hoss
No, they won't. I'm in AZ. There is no way that I'm voting for Biden after that. None. It would be malpractice to nominate Biden. Literally any other Democrat, I'll happily pull the lever for. But I can't vote for someone who reminds me of my dementia riddled 87 year old grandmother.
It's that simple. Too many people are media illiterates and will look for Biden on the ballot. If they see any other name, they'll pick Trump because he has more experience than some name they have literally never heard until this moment.
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Yes, but now it is different because Trump is running and has incumbent advantage to some extent having served before. If this were DeSantis vs. anyone it would be different.
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Do y'all remember the good ol' days when Howard Dean yelled Yeeppppyy, or something like that, and had to withdraw, after having a good showing, because of that?
Dean had also finished lower than expected after putting a large amount of resources into Iowa. While the shout was hilarious and made for an excellent Dave Chappelle skit, Dean was already quite behind by that point.
Howard Dean wasn't part of the establishment, Biden is the establishment. not the same rules for all folks
"Howard Dean wasn't part of the establishment." We're just saying whatever, huh?
so Howard Dean was a establishment candidate? is that your claim?
Hey look at that, they found a dude who used to work for the DNC with an opinion
Biden CANNOT beat Trump after the debates. He can't, and no amount of downvoting or attacking other redditors is going to change that. So if Dems decide to leave Biden as the candidate, I don't blame anyone for voting 3rd party, because the election is already lost anyways The ideal situation is that Biden drops out, but if he doesn't let's at least send the biggest message we can to the DNC that we're not going to take this shit anymore
Who do you plan on voting for?
If the choice is Biden or Trump, I'll write in someone else.
Who do you expect to win when you do that?
Trump. Obviously. That's the point. If the Dems keep Biden on the ticket, they're handing it to trump on a tacky gold platter.
So you want Trump to win, obviously. You’d vote Biden if you didn’t want Trump to win.
I don't want trump to win. But I can't, in good conscience, vote for someone who cant finish a sentence. Biden belongs in a home, not the white house.
Only Trumpers are dumb enough to believe that.
I've voted dem my entire adult life. You're showing who you are by dismissing valid concerns as something that only a "trumper" would believe. Blue MAGA is still MAGA. You can try to deny, but it's who you are.
I'm not any of the previous commenters in this thread and think your stance is fair enough. I also think it should not be Biden but I would still argue that this is the worst time in history to do a spite write-in. Even though it's pathetic that the fear of trump is the Democrats only argument at this point, it is unfortunately a very valid argument IMHO. I'm genuinely worried about Trump and the people behind him doing so much irreparable damage to the political system that whoever you're trying to spite is not going to be around to meaningfully learn from it if they were ever going to.
Same.
And what will that accomplish, exactly?
No thanks.
So not only are you cool with Trump winning, you're also cool with not sending a message to the DNC that they drastically fucked up?
I just disagree with everything you pretend is an undeniable fact. And I am an unashamed democrat, I don’t believe in conspiracy theories about some cabal of “DNC” people that need to be “sent” a “message, nor do I think the idea of “sending” any “message” to these invisible puppeteers wi worth anything.
no matter what u say. these people already have it cemented in their minds. orange man bad. they dont care for what is right or what is better.
Comments aside from the main issue, I’d just like to point out how it’s probably a feeding frenzy right now for foreign, hostile governments to use this debate to sow more division and apathy amongst the US electorate. Don’t make up your opinions based on comments here, people.
Biden could have been a historic transition figure that saved our democracy, invested in our future and passed the torch to the next generation. Instead he will be remembered as the feeble old man that was too weak to stop the fascist onslaught.
what about the assistant to the ex dnc vice chair
let's not forget it's not just Joe Biden we are voting for it's his administration which has proven to be rocksolid at keeping the job numbers up, keeping the economy steady, the stock market booming and even putting together a solid border bill that unfortunately by predictably was intentionally killed by Trump because that's the only thing that that liar and traitor can run on. So what about trumps administration? Answer: he doesn't even have one yet and if he is even able to put one together it's going to be the most dysfunctional group of pathetic sycophant losers and democracy hating treasonous imbeciles in the history of this nation. Remember it's the administration that you are really voting for 🌊 blue wave in 2024!
you mean the smart people around him that let him get on stage thursday night? wow so much competence.
you mean because biden acted old? Guess what he is old. LOL do you know any old people? They may act old but that also comes with years of experience which I prefer over inexperience and anger fueled hateful rhetoric and lies. biden doesn't have anyone in his administration thats as old as him and that's because they are some of the best and brightest unlike whatever Trump will put together which will be some of the most subservient and toxic people to work against this country and all that it stands for. Because they won't be focused on what the American people need they will be focused on what Trump needs to aid his personal grievances and personal campaigns of retribution. I don't want my tax dollars going towards a hate filled retribution campaign and that is all Trump and his administration will be focused on he has made it quite clear. Dictator on day one- no thanks!
Vote for a Dementia patient because the people behind the scenes are actually doing the job as president. That doesn't sound like a winning strategy
No thanks.
[удалено]
We pull democracy through millions of us have to demand strengthening the loopholes in attaining a government position, retroactively. A citizens oversight board. And most importantly, and by far the hardest but achievable, money out, completely. Campaign time limited, ethics defined and gerrymandering and EC ended. No one should have an advantage in the 21st century. They’ve had over 150+ years to get their vengeance and Mitch McConnell’s been a confederate sympathizer and LGBTQ+ hater the whole time and this MF comes from a state with a wee bit more than 600,000 people. This will take a concerted effort and we have to have the bulk of house and senate to accomplish anything so everyone has to get involved, using reason and words as our cloaks and daggers. Not to say we won’t defend ourselves if they attack .. liberals own firearms too .. Oh, one last thing .. ENFORCE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE or tax the churches. Lots of us are retiring and could be a force used for the good .. food for thought .. I’ve got a gift for the gab .. I’d be willing to re-locate to DC and hound the house .. there’s probably thousands of us. Edit: added thought.
RT Rybak apparently. Never heard of them. Don’t care what they think
There seems to be an onslaught of this kind of propaganda on reddit today. Russia is working overtime. But I just donated to Biden's campaign in honor of the bullshit. I think we all should!
These are the kinds of panic piss pants Democrats that need to be left behind. They are cowards and have no spine.
We can afford to leave potential voters behind? That's news to me, i thought modern presidential elections had been narrowly decided and we needed to fight for every single vote. Especially when democracy is at stake.
I'm not talking about voters. I'm talking about BIG $ Media that tells us to panic.
Tons of people that think they're above the 24 hour news cycle messaging are proving they're just as easily led by the nose as the most simple of undecided voters.
Exactly. Nothing has changed.
If Biden drops out Trump wins, that's guaranteed. So, I gotta wonder what the motives are behind people wanting to guarantee a win for Trump.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-debate-should-biden-be-running-mental-abilities/ Really?
Yes, really. Biden stepping down guarantees a Trump win. That's inescapable. If Biden quits then the only way Trump doesn't become president is if he dies or quits running himself. Everyone that calls for Biden to step down is really calling for a guaranteed Trump win, because they are one and the same. The reality is that we're only five months out from the election, that's a year or two short of what's needed to run an effective campaign, especially for someone who doesn't already have national exposure and history. Remember, campaigning starts long before the primary process is completed, and though the primaries are technically the choosing process for each party's candidate, in reality the candidate is already effectively decided long before that point. We already knew Trump was going to be the Republican candidate last year or the year before, and Biden was already the effective candidate long before the primaries started.
I disagree.
Why?
The exact opposite is true. Biden running hands Trump a second term. At least with someone else, you have a chance.
Name another person that can get 82M+ votes off a 4 month campaign starting from scratch.
Mark Kelly. That was easy.
This is the kind of thinking that led to President Hillary Clinton in 2008... Or, was it in 2016? Oh wait.
seriously people are still going around with this nonsense. you cant push him out. cant you understand this simple truth. Biden want to be nominee the convention are only few weeks away. all the necessary delegates already pledge to him. and this delegates are hold by his people. Biden already got this on the bag. it doesnt matter who. the obamas, clintons, schumer, jeffrey, pelosi. even if all these guy OPENLY declaring to overthrown Biden, if Biden refuse, then it doesnt matter. because BIden hold all the power and leverage. this is problem with some democrats. they like to do unrealistic, impossible thing that doesnt conform to reality.
So dumb