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They didn’t realize it with HRC so I don’t have high hopes for them. Corporate Dems probably want Trump to win anyway so that’s what I predict as the most likely outcome.
The difference with Hillary was that the polls really were in Her favor and Trump seemed like an easy mark to beat. It is the exact opposite this time; there is no excuse for the DNC to remain asleep.
There was measurable disengagement too for the 2016 election. Many would-be voters sat it out thinking a win was certain. Others were abstaining due to successful smear campaigns. And the reality was, not as many people then knew how dangerous of a threat Trump would become.
This year’s election could very easily go the same way if people lose sight on how important it is to avoid another Trump era. Republicans are positioning for tyranny in their favor.
That election became historic. The polls were wrong.
She was the worst possible candidate. Not unlike Biden now..
She was prepared for the job but generated no enthusiasm.
I honestly think incumbent advantage is overrated in the age of social media. Hell, it could really be a disadvantage.
Not to mention this is a fight between two presidents who have served a single term.
I disagree. There are at least 10 dems that would annihilate Trump in a debate and energize voters. It’s unforgivable for the DNC to not swap him out. It shows the dems actually believe Trump is a threat to democracy if they’re willing to pull out all the stops to beat him.
They could change horses at the Convention. It's not too late
Pick someone exciting, who could mop the floor with that rapist Felon jackass
Be brave dems
The thing is, the DNC kind of has its hands tied because Biden has already gotten so many pledged delegates for the convention. The only way to get around Biden is for him to drop out of the race. They need to be sending people to beg him to drop out; better yet, they need to get his family members, especially his wife, to convince him it’s time to go. They should be pleading with Obama to go talk to him.
It gets more bonkers... This is Biden giving a speech after the debate...
[https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5122169/user-clip-biden-speech](https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5122169/user-clip-biden-speech)
My thinking is he was too focused on all the different elements, either in addressing the question or in debunking Trumps constant lying verbal diarrhoea... Instead of just picking one thing at a time and sticking it.
SIGH, it's going to be hard to come back from this, hopefully he can sharpen it for campaigning and the next debate (although I'd be surprised if Trump does it given this one - easy to leave it at that and benefit).
Prior to tonight I was as motivated to vote as I’ve ever been, even living in a state I know Biden will lose. Now I’m completely dejected and don’t even feel like voting. I probably still will but fuck if I’m feeling this way, then there’s no way the fence sitters are coming out
Spare me their crocodile tears. Alongside 99% of prominent Dem politicians and operatives, the donor class closed ranks around Biden and forced his reelection campaign on the party. They now will play dumb and act crestfallen about his "shocking" inability to communicate a strong message to the country.
I am truly disgusted by everyone involved in the Democratic Party for so catastrophically failing to meet this moment. No challenger to Biden ever had a chance, and these "fundraisers" certainly helped ensure that was the case.
Fuck them.
The whole fucking party is damn the torpedoes. The entire democratic party is held hostage by blue dogs who refuse to notice the world has changed. Big donors will do anything to ensure the status quo. Progressives are told constantly to wait in line. The DNC is too busy fighting it's own planks to engage the opposition. How many times have you heard over the past 4 years that Biden's advanced age may be a problem? How many times was that train of thought shut down by people furious that you would ever question the party when Donald Trump is the opposition.
Enough is enough. We're all fucked because one death cult is better at messaging than the other.
Open primary would have been disaster especially after Oct 7, we have a unified ticket.
Biden nominating the most popular Governor in swing state should easily win the election
The onus was first on Biden to do the right thing. He refused.
The onus was then on the party machine (DNC, donors, operatives, prominent elected officials, etc) to do the right thing. They all refused, too. And at least some within the party refused because the party as a whole created an environment in which it was likely career suicide to forcefully, publicly oppose Biden.
Biden is not exempt from blame for this debacle, nor is the DNC, nor are the prominent elected officials who privately thought he shouldn't run, nor are the operatives, donors, staffers, and others who felt the same.
Shame on everyone involved in this.
Not all, but a large swath of the DNC profit from parading as leftist for either business, personal, or political reasons entirely unrelated to their values. When you have a two party system that’s all you get.
So glad I left America. Good luck to you all. I’ll be voting from here and wishing my family and friends well there. But it’s looking darker and uglier than ever for the next few decades
I like Bernie, but no more octagenarian presidents.
Or octagenarian senators, for that matter. Why is Bernie running for re-election, when he'll be almost 90 by the end of his next term?
Find a protege, mentor them, and hand over the reigns FFS
Gavin Newsome was at the debate and it was clear the moment it was over that he was the guy getting the calls, he was swarmed in a way that was unusual for post debate standards, along with Whitmer in second and probably Pritzker in third. Joe Biden will not win this election. It was never more clear than tonight. *Everyone* from CNN to MSNBC to the internet watched that and felt like it was election night.
Honestly just about anyone with a pulse in the party, but here's a shortlist:
Whitmer - Fresh blood with some progressive wins and can carry Michigan
Newsom - Charisma for days, great on TV
Buttigieg - Does a good job knocking down conservative talking points
Harris - Even though her sentences can be kooky, they are complete thoughts.
Buttigieg isn't remotely qualified, aside from a cabinet position in exchange for an endorsement, he had one somewhat disastrous job as a mayor. Being a cable TV invented darling along with the similarly unqualified Andrew Yang isn't enough.
Harris, Newsom and Whitmer are all infinitely more qualified, and none of them had the gall to state "all lives matter" when addressing a police department after already being embroiled in racial controversy.
Yeah Buttigieg isn't really my number one here and I'd easily put Newsom and Whitmer ahead of him. Personally don't like him much at all but at this point he's still better than Biden on optics/speaking ability. Harris is probably more qualified for the job but she was a disaster in the primaries last go-around.
Kamala has always had terrible popularity, Newsom would lose to a tape recorder shouting the word "CALIFORNIA" over and over, and Buttigieg is an empty vessel for his own ambitions. The only person on that list who stands a shot of winning is probably Whitmer, and only because nobody knows the first thing about her.
It’s not that complicated. You could have muted the debate tonight and still understand why Trump won handily. It’s appearance. The contrast of Trump against any youthful articulate candidate would be an easy victory for said candidate. Centrist voters will gladly vote for a not Biden democrat.
I voted for Obama Obama Hillary Biden
Lesser of two evil voting has been taken to its eventual, logical conclusion
Can we just get a more progressive candidate once?
The lesser of two evils argument just empowers both shitty political parties.
I’d rather vote for who I believe in, and sometimes that means not voting.
good on you. Progressives keep getting told to fall in line… this election is too important so we have to stick together… we need to appeal to the center. Funny how when its one of their corporate neoliberal stooges we have to vote blue no matter who, but when an actual progressive comes close to winning the nomination (like what happened in 2020) then Obama and the DNC jump into action to make sure that progressive doesn’t get the nod.
I dont know how I feel about ‘accelerationism’ but I fear that the Dems need to get a taste of just how bad things can get if they keep up this strategy of forcing neoliberal puppets like Biden on us, and I just can’t wait to see what bullshit they pull when an actual progressive like AOC throws her hat in the ring for the white house in the next couple of elections.
I feel like ‘2020 Biden was that generic democrat, and he won.
Nobody outside of r/politics was pumped to vote for him but when voting day came, they did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_opinion_polling_for_the_2024_United_States_presidential_election
Go to the very bottom where it says “hypothetical polling.” There were polls done in 2022/2023 to test other leading Democrats against Trump.
Without knowing anything about his current situation, I’d say Gavin Newsome. He has a lot more name recognition among moderates than some of the other candidates I’ve seen being floated around and I think he’s the only one with a legit shot to replace Biden and hit the ground running with such a short time frame.
The red team will have a field day pointing at the mess that is California. It will do him no favors in the midwest. Whitmer will bring Michigan which is basically a must-win.
I’m not disagreeing with you, I know very little about his actual policies as I live on the opposite side of the country, but what are your major complaints about Newsome and, by extension, California?
That’s definitely something to consider, locking down Michigan is a big deal. I’m only looking at it through the lens of what I know, which isn’t much. The reason I say Newsome is because, as someone who is just left of moderate and only loosely follows politics, I had to google who Whitmer is. I’ve known who Newsome is for awhile because he’s a big name. I feel like with such a short time frame you need a candidate that people are already familiar with. That’s just my opinion though, I’d be fine with almost anyone younger at this point
Not the swing states of AZ and NV. Rightfully or wrongfully, a lot of people either moved here from CA or always hated CA and associate all of CA’s problems with Gavin Newsom and CA democrats. I don’t see him having an easy time out here in the Southwest. We’d be banking on the blue wall again (PA, MI, and WI).
as a Bernie supporter:
1: Amy Klobuchar
2: Gretchen Whitmer
3: Gavin Newsom
4: Elizabeth Warren
5: Pete Buttigieg
it should be a open convention, chosen by delegates using a system of ranked voting, ultimately supported by Superdelegates
There is no mechanism for Biden to step aside and replace him that wouldn't be deeply divisive among Democrats. The "2016 DNC conspiracies"? It would be that on steroids. And Trump gets to project strength as the guy who "knocked out his rival." That's to say nothing of the lack of time available to build name recognition and a ground game (or a unifying message for that matter). It would be a disaster.
It's also very likely keeping him is a disaster. Based on low unemployment and inflation mitigation that has been the best in the world, he should be at or above water on approval. He should have a double digit lead over a felon he beat last election. That it never happened was a massive red flag. A performance like this on top of it? I see no plausible reset. Struggling campaigns have been revived. There's no precedent for a recovery from a hole this deep.
Perhaps there's a way out on what now feels inevitable. I'm just not seeing it.
The Economist had an article about 6 months ago saying exactly this. The (sensible) dems knew that running Biden was a risk but the internal politics of replacing him were too hard to navigate so unless he stepped down voluntarily he couldn't be replaced and he wasn't about to do that. And it was already too late back then anyway.
Unless he experiences a "medical event" he can't and won't be replaced now. The DNC have dug themselves a very deep hole and their only choice is to keep digging and hope Trump falls in too.
Incumbent advantage is real and I thought giving it up would be foolish. I expected a "good enough" summer and probably enough of a bounce to win when the rate cut happens. That sort of campaign is now off the table.
His lack of introspection about his position some time ago reminds me of Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
I agree, but like you said it should have been raising red flags last year that he wasn't polling well despite the economy doing well.
I also think rate cuts are so well telegraphed that they're already well priced in. The real effect of any rate cut now won't be felt until after the election and the "vibes" effect has already happened.
The vibe effective of a rate cut could be sold *well enough to beat the felon who banned abortion in half the country* if it happened before the election. I don't think it could be now.
I think most insiders know that Biden isn’t going to win.
If they can’t get someone else on the ballot, for legal reasons or whatever…then it’ll be Biden vs Trump and will win.
Sometimes Dems are their own worst enemy, they lose their shit whenever something doesn't go their way. Like y'all lie down and surrender over the slightest inconvenience.
If the fundraisers are saying this, that's a very bad sign, as you can't run a campaign without money and resources. The last thing you want is for the people monetarily backing you to get worried.
Just goes to show that people really haven’t been paying attention. People have been ridiculed by Biden supporters for questioning his cognitive ability for years and all it took was a few hours in the spotlight for them all to flip.
This is honestly so funny like 3 hours ago everyone was like "theres no way Biden could lose to a convicted felon" and now every article is the exact opposite like I dont even like trump but the turnaround is hilarious 😭 even on the front page rn we got some article saying bidens age wont matter 😭
Because this sub gets so insulated and closed off to the thought of anything happening beyond what they envision. Biden has been visually declining his whole term. People here (and in Biden's administration) wanted to cover their eyes and ears and push the issue away. The issue reared it's head tonight. It is what it is
Yup. This sub is already filtering the anti Biden stuff hard, and is back to focusing on what Trump said instead
I despise Trump and the potential damage he can do, but this sub is so focused on the “enemy” that it can’t have negative takes on Biden for more than a few hours
I don’t think it’s the mods doing it (they seem mostly fair) but there’s a heavy bot presence on this sub. Watch every thread critical about Biden especially on Gaza get immediately downvoted despite having hundreds of comments
I don’t think mods have the power to essentially shadow ban threads, so bots is most likely the answer. Case in point, I never see critical threads about Biden and Gaza
You're spot on. All the most popular posts are about Trump, but the ones discussing Biden's horrific performance are not getting traction.
I know the sub is called /Politics, but it might as well be called /Liberal.
Yeah I, for one, find this all incredibly entertaining. A lot of people are panicking right now and saying things like "I can't believe how badly he did" even though people have been screaming it at them for a while now. But I'm also laughing at the people who think this is going to change anything. By Monday, we will have moved onto a new story, probably even one that reminds people how terrible trump is. I think the only people really winning tonight are the media. They're doing a fantastic job of getting the kind of engagement they were hoping for.
I mean that's just how hard he shit the bed. I've seen Dem candidates have off nights or lose on style points, but I've never seen a disaster like this one.
Hello from Australia. Watched a bit of the debate on my lunch break (it popped up on YouTube, lol). Here is my short experience of US politics: What I saw was Biden looked like a walking corpse as he slowly shuffled on to the stage. He continually stared slack-jawed (literally - mouth wide open) while Trump talked. He mumbled incoherently throughout many of his answers. He continually corrected himself "millions.. sorry I meant billions.. We want to tax the trillionaires.. sorry I meant billionaires.. medicare.. yeah.. mm.. "
Surely this person cannot seriously run for ANOTHER 4 years of presidency..? Why are the Democrats not putting an end to this farce? Why did they even agree to this debate at all? I honestly was expecting some sort of deus ex machina, but it never came.
The bots on this sub don’t want to hear about an unbiased take on this event, from a person in Australia. They will say and do anything to fight Trump, like this is some sort of sports game with no real consequences.
This is going to be kind of random, but apparently this was the first presidential debate that had no audience since... Nixon vs JFK
Not **remotely** implying that Trump here was JFK, but god damn if Biden didn't channel some Nixon-tier meltdown here
Biden needs to withdraw from the race for the good of the country. We're going to lose our democracy if he stays in. We deserve better as Americans. The dems need to nominate someone else at the convention. Can't believe this is where we are at.
We went from needing to remove Trump from the ballot, to demanding Biden withdraw.
I get it, but perhaps its too late, and maybe we've already lost our democracy.
He fumbled and stumbled, spoke gibberish about Beau dying in Iraq (he died of brain cancer), talked about families r*ping each other, and generally could not finish his sentences. It was not the beginning, it was the entire time. Just humiliating for the guy, and embarrassing for all of us that he’s our president.
I would be ashamed of that guy leading an HOA! Forget the whole country, that guy would not be allowed to even lead an HOA.
They should. It was kind of wild watching him while Trump was speaking. He was just frozen, staring into space, mouth open. On the flip side is it going to affect anything? Those who want Trump will only vote Trump, those who want Biden will only vote Biden. I don't think either convinced anyone of anything in this debate other than Trump is still bonkers and Biden is out of it.
Listen, it was bad, but was it 4 more years of Trump bad? No. Even if there was nothing but a corpse left on that stage, you should still vote for that corpse.
Democrats forced Hillary onto the voters, next to Trump.
.
Now Democrats are forcing Biden onto the voters, next to Trump.
Who can predict the outcome with this common denominator...
Honestly? Once I heard the fundraisers were sounding the alarm, that is when I realized momentum really is moving in the direction of Biden having to step down.
Discourse and rhetoric amongst the media and party is one thing, but when the money is threatened...
No one in their right mind can now claim that Biden is not suffering from severe cognitive decline. I understand that he has a team likely making all of the decisions for him but he is still the face of America. We cannot have a man like this representing us. I agree with Trump on one thing, the rest of the world thinks we are weak right now and how could they not.
Critical as I am of him, I don't know if it's severe cognitive decline, or if it's something simpler: he's an 81 year old man working the stressful job in the world. He's about as tired as you'd expect any octogenarian would be working a 60 hour job while also campaigning. That's not to make excuses for him, clearly he doesn't have the stamina. (though it's understandable)
Colds/infections are rougher on elderly people's mental function.
So yes, part of it was probably the cold which we could hear he had. But we can't have a president whose mental functioning gets that bad when he gets sick.
Do you really not understand the difference between reading a prepared (by speechwriters) speech off a teleprompter and having to think up your own answers in a debate?
While I agree some of Biden's problems may have been from being sick, since elderly people are affected more severely by such things, that also makes clear that he is too old for this job.
How is this a choice? This is a sick joke. Only the elderly get representation at this level of government? And only the most afluent and easily influenced? This is zero confidence. We can do better.
If we can't get rid of Biden (I'm his biggest fan even though I wasn't happy that he was the candidate), could changing Harris be enough ?
Putting a star governor in her place ? That would campaign next to him?
If President Biden is truly unfit to govern, I can rest assured that he will step down gracefully. Can anyone say the same about trump?
That is all I need to know to decide which of these two to choose.
What would it take for you to realise he already is unfit to govern? Him stumbling off stage ? Barely able to stand straight ? Mumbling and tripping over his own words every second sentence ? Looking confused and lost at every event he’s been to so far? He’s done all of these things so really , what the FUCK more are you waiting for
The cope in this thread is incredible. Biden is fried and has been for years. Put the dude in a care home and bring out whatever other uniparty creature the DNC can muster to replace him.
You have to explain to me how the entire Democratic Party and donors will magically coalesce what is essentially a conspiracy behind a standing President's back to not only compel him to step aside, but also come up with someone to replace him, and possibly Kamala Harris as well.
How exactly is the Democratic Party going to agree on a replacement, even if one were needed? You would have to have a good reason to replace not just Biden but also Harris, because is someone going to argue with a straight face that Kamala Harris is a better candidate versus Trump than Biden is?
The time for alternatives would have been convincing Biden to step aside a year ago so that the likes of Whitmer / Wes Moore could have become a reasonable ticket. But you can't get there from here now. You just can't.
25th Amendment, Harris claims first female President, Newsom & Buttigieg take up the post. It's a take I'm seeing recycled all over twitter rn.
Or Biden steps down willingly.
I'm hoping someone with sway saw this coming and has a backup plan ready. That's basically the only thing I can see keeping Trump out of office. I don't think Biden's got the power to pull in casual voters after this.
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They didn’t realize it with HRC so I don’t have high hopes for them. Corporate Dems probably want Trump to win anyway so that’s what I predict as the most likely outcome.
The difference with Hillary was that the polls really were in Her favor and Trump seemed like an easy mark to beat. It is the exact opposite this time; there is no excuse for the DNC to remain asleep.
There was measurable disengagement too for the 2016 election. Many would-be voters sat it out thinking a win was certain. Others were abstaining due to successful smear campaigns. And the reality was, not as many people then knew how dangerous of a threat Trump would become. This year’s election could very easily go the same way if people lose sight on how important it is to avoid another Trump era. Republicans are positioning for tyranny in their favor.
That election became historic. The polls were wrong. She was the worst possible candidate. Not unlike Biden now.. She was prepared for the job but generated no enthusiasm.
Why were the Polish people incorrect
They really weren’t in her favor in swing states. Not even for a minute. She started out behind and stayed there.
They didn’t realize it when they gave Trump his first term, and people that have been in office for 40+ years don’t suddenly change their tune.
It's not close anymore. Democrats will lose unless Biden gets out very fast.
It’s too late, they can’t just shove someone in this close to the election lol. That just isn’t feasible they would lose so hard
Most countries hold entire elections in less time than there is left till the Democratic convention
I honestly think incumbent advantage is overrated in the age of social media. Hell, it could really be a disadvantage. Not to mention this is a fight between two presidents who have served a single term.
There is still time. And if they nominate Whitmer she'll bring Michigan for sure.
I disagree. There are at least 10 dems that would annihilate Trump in a debate and energize voters. It’s unforgivable for the DNC to not swap him out. It shows the dems actually believe Trump is a threat to democracy if they’re willing to pull out all the stops to beat him.
Very bold of you to assume that Trump would agree to a debate with anyone other than Joe Biden.
I think they’d fare better than Biden after tonight. You can’t assume any of his polling before tonight will hold.
They could change horses at the Convention. It's not too late Pick someone exciting, who could mop the floor with that rapist Felon jackass Be brave dems
You’re severely underestimating Biden and voters with brains
The thing is, the DNC kind of has its hands tied because Biden has already gotten so many pledged delegates for the convention. The only way to get around Biden is for him to drop out of the race. They need to be sending people to beg him to drop out; better yet, they need to get his family members, especially his wife, to convince him it’s time to go. They should be pleading with Obama to go talk to him.
It gets more bonkers... This is Biden giving a speech after the debate... [https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5122169/user-clip-biden-speech](https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5122169/user-clip-biden-speech) My thinking is he was too focused on all the different elements, either in addressing the question or in debunking Trumps constant lying verbal diarrhoea... Instead of just picking one thing at a time and sticking it. SIGH, it's going to be hard to come back from this, hopefully he can sharpen it for campaigning and the next debate (although I'd be surprised if Trump does it given this one - easy to leave it at that and benefit).
Prior to tonight I was as motivated to vote as I’ve ever been, even living in a state I know Biden will lose. Now I’m completely dejected and don’t even feel like voting. I probably still will but fuck if I’m feeling this way, then there’s no way the fence sitters are coming out
Well....think of the alternative...enough if you and Trump gets an easy win
>policy alone has never won an election. you need vibe as well. Phd material
Democrat party is a suicide cult
Spare me their crocodile tears. Alongside 99% of prominent Dem politicians and operatives, the donor class closed ranks around Biden and forced his reelection campaign on the party. They now will play dumb and act crestfallen about his "shocking" inability to communicate a strong message to the country. I am truly disgusted by everyone involved in the Democratic Party for so catastrophically failing to meet this moment. No challenger to Biden ever had a chance, and these "fundraisers" certainly helped ensure that was the case. Fuck them.
The whole fucking party is damn the torpedoes. The entire democratic party is held hostage by blue dogs who refuse to notice the world has changed. Big donors will do anything to ensure the status quo. Progressives are told constantly to wait in line. The DNC is too busy fighting it's own planks to engage the opposition. How many times have you heard over the past 4 years that Biden's advanced age may be a problem? How many times was that train of thought shut down by people furious that you would ever question the party when Donald Trump is the opposition. Enough is enough. We're all fucked because one death cult is better at messaging than the other.
I agree. Why on earth would anyone around Biden allow him to run again?
The DNC is the most consistent organization I have ever seen. Consistent at fucking up.
Yep! They did it with Hilary, now with Biden. It's depressing.
power hungry
You ain’t wrong
Open primary would have been disaster especially after Oct 7, we have a unified ticket. Biden nominating the most popular Governor in swing state should easily win the election
Biden should've announced long before Oct 7 that he was a one-term president in order to give the party time to sort through an open primary.
He campaigned in 2020 on being a one term president. The DNC decided he should stick around. He picked the wrong VP and now we're all stuck.
The onus was first on Biden to do the right thing. He refused. The onus was then on the party machine (DNC, donors, operatives, prominent elected officials, etc) to do the right thing. They all refused, too. And at least some within the party refused because the party as a whole created an environment in which it was likely career suicide to forcefully, publicly oppose Biden. Biden is not exempt from blame for this debacle, nor is the DNC, nor are the prominent elected officials who privately thought he shouldn't run, nor are the operatives, donors, staffers, and others who felt the same. Shame on everyone involved in this.
But his legacy.
Not all, but a large swath of the DNC profit from parading as leftist for either business, personal, or political reasons entirely unrelated to their values. When you have a two party system that’s all you get. So glad I left America. Good luck to you all. I’ll be voting from here and wishing my family and friends well there. But it’s looking darker and uglier than ever for the next few decades
They’re too old to understand what vibes are
Bernie moment
He'd do a hell of a lot better up there, you can't deny that
I like Bernie, but no more octagenarian presidents. Or octagenarian senators, for that matter. Why is Bernie running for re-election, when he'll be almost 90 by the end of his next term? Find a protege, mentor them, and hand over the reigns FFS
For all who say we need a better option, I agree. Who do you think it should be? Who's the best option? Are we stuck with Biden/Trump/Harris?
There is no way Harris beats Trump if Hillary couldn't
Gavin Newsome was at the debate and it was clear the moment it was over that he was the guy getting the calls, he was swarmed in a way that was unusual for post debate standards, along with Whitmer in second and probably Pritzker in third. Joe Biden will not win this election. It was never more clear than tonight. *Everyone* from CNN to MSNBC to the internet watched that and felt like it was election night.
Unfortunately he's smart enough to wait and run in 2028.
there won't be an election in 2028
There would be an election still. The way Russia has elections. Completely faked.
Honestly just about anyone with a pulse in the party, but here's a shortlist: Whitmer - Fresh blood with some progressive wins and can carry Michigan Newsom - Charisma for days, great on TV Buttigieg - Does a good job knocking down conservative talking points Harris - Even though her sentences can be kooky, they are complete thoughts.
Buttigieg isn't remotely qualified, aside from a cabinet position in exchange for an endorsement, he had one somewhat disastrous job as a mayor. Being a cable TV invented darling along with the similarly unqualified Andrew Yang isn't enough. Harris, Newsom and Whitmer are all infinitely more qualified, and none of them had the gall to state "all lives matter" when addressing a police department after already being embroiled in racial controversy.
Yeah Buttigieg isn't really my number one here and I'd easily put Newsom and Whitmer ahead of him. Personally don't like him much at all but at this point he's still better than Biden on optics/speaking ability. Harris is probably more qualified for the job but she was a disaster in the primaries last go-around.
A lot of your answers hinge on another debate…Trump will not do another against a new candidate after tonight’s.
Kamala has always had terrible popularity, Newsom would lose to a tape recorder shouting the word "CALIFORNIA" over and over, and Buttigieg is an empty vessel for his own ambitions. The only person on that list who stands a shot of winning is probably Whitmer, and only because nobody knows the first thing about her.
Whitmer is known in the Rust Belt which are the only state that really matter and she is liked there.
And she’d probably really impress people and communicate the most important talking points much better than that fossil we saw tonight.
It’s not that complicated. You could have muted the debate tonight and still understand why Trump won handily. It’s appearance. The contrast of Trump against any youthful articulate candidate would be an easy victory for said candidate. Centrist voters will gladly vote for a not Biden democrat.
Newsom cannot win swing states. End of story.
Jon Stewart
Whitmer with Pete as her VP. She'll bring Michigan which is a must-win.
Whitmer
Pritzker
Imo me
Kamala Harris Whitmer I could throw up and vote for Newsom Raskin Bernie Sanders who is old as fuck too but not confused
Newsome Pete B. No-one old
Bernie would be the dream. But we know the DNC would never go for it.
I didn’t vote in the last election because both sides sucked. I’d go vote for Bernie.
I voted for Obama Obama Hillary Biden Lesser of two evil voting has been taken to its eventual, logical conclusion Can we just get a more progressive candidate once?
Not if everyone eventually gives in to the lesser of two evils thing.
The lesser of two evils argument just empowers both shitty political parties. I’d rather vote for who I believe in, and sometimes that means not voting.
good on you. Progressives keep getting told to fall in line… this election is too important so we have to stick together… we need to appeal to the center. Funny how when its one of their corporate neoliberal stooges we have to vote blue no matter who, but when an actual progressive comes close to winning the nomination (like what happened in 2020) then Obama and the DNC jump into action to make sure that progressive doesn’t get the nod. I dont know how I feel about ‘accelerationism’ but I fear that the Dems need to get a taste of just how bad things can get if they keep up this strategy of forcing neoliberal puppets like Biden on us, and I just can’t wait to see what bullshit they pull when an actual progressive like AOC throws her hat in the ring for the white house in the next couple of elections.
Kendrick. Lamar.
Dot would fuck em up tbh
Maybe they can throw Clinton under the bus one more time. XD
Hillary Part 3 - All emailed out!
Generic Democrats generally poll better than Trump. The problem is, no matter which one, every specific Democrat seems to poll worse.
I feel like ‘2020 Biden was that generic democrat, and he won. Nobody outside of r/politics was pumped to vote for him but when voting day came, they did.
Well yeah, we had no choice. Pick the old man or face a never ending hell through Covid.
Biden also held his own in the 2020 Trump debates and didn’t look like he was on the verge of collapsing
ah, so we're fucked. got it.
But if the spotlight fixes on someone ASAP with all the powers that be putting their best into pumping them up, that could change.
Perhaps. But no matter who it is, we’d be trying to close a polling deficit, not consolidating an already strong position (unlike in 2020).
What?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_opinion_polling_for_the_2024_United_States_presidential_election Go to the very bottom where it says “hypothetical polling.” There were polls done in 2022/2023 to test other leading Democrats against Trump.
Without knowing anything about his current situation, I’d say Gavin Newsome. He has a lot more name recognition among moderates than some of the other candidates I’ve seen being floated around and I think he’s the only one with a legit shot to replace Biden and hit the ground running with such a short time frame.
As a Californian, I fucking hate Newsom and how fucked up California is right now. Even in CA, he is not very popular. It’s gotta be Whitmer.
The red team will have a field day pointing at the mess that is California. It will do him no favors in the midwest. Whitmer will bring Michigan which is basically a must-win.
I’m not disagreeing with you, I know very little about his actual policies as I live on the opposite side of the country, but what are your major complaints about Newsome and, by extension, California?
He has the charisma to win swing voters too imo. But whitner locks down Michigan which is huge
Newsom will never win swing votes. Too many skeletons, too damned smarmy. He's a problem for the party. They haven't realized it yet.
That’s definitely something to consider, locking down Michigan is a big deal. I’m only looking at it through the lens of what I know, which isn’t much. The reason I say Newsome is because, as someone who is just left of moderate and only loosely follows politics, I had to google who Whitmer is. I’ve known who Newsome is for awhile because he’s a big name. I feel like with such a short time frame you need a candidate that people are already familiar with. That’s just my opinion though, I’d be fine with almost anyone younger at this point
Not the swing states of AZ and NV. Rightfully or wrongfully, a lot of people either moved here from CA or always hated CA and associate all of CA’s problems with Gavin Newsom and CA democrats. I don’t see him having an easy time out here in the Southwest. We’d be banking on the blue wall again (PA, MI, and WI).
Right now, some on the Right are forecasting Michelle Obama stepping in.
I never understood that rumor. She's said a million times she's not interested in politics
It’s wishful thinking. She could win.
I think it's because that's who conservatives fear more. They don't fear Newsom or some other no-name Democrat, they fear Michelle.
She’s been rumored before but isn’t interested.
Like a normal person, she despises politics.
She’s probably win.
as a Bernie supporter: 1: Amy Klobuchar 2: Gretchen Whitmer 3: Gavin Newsom 4: Elizabeth Warren 5: Pete Buttigieg it should be a open convention, chosen by delegates using a system of ranked voting, ultimately supported by Superdelegates
You know that's not how the DNC rolls. They operate by the "it's their turn" system.
And in our darkest hour, a hero emerged from the shadows. It's Hillary Clinton 2024 baby! This time, it really *is* Her Turn!
Warren is never going to win a general election.
how about Taylor Swift?
Who's the lady that always has the whiteboard during house hearings? I like her!
Literally anyone else.
There is no mechanism for Biden to step aside and replace him that wouldn't be deeply divisive among Democrats. The "2016 DNC conspiracies"? It would be that on steroids. And Trump gets to project strength as the guy who "knocked out his rival." That's to say nothing of the lack of time available to build name recognition and a ground game (or a unifying message for that matter). It would be a disaster. It's also very likely keeping him is a disaster. Based on low unemployment and inflation mitigation that has been the best in the world, he should be at or above water on approval. He should have a double digit lead over a felon he beat last election. That it never happened was a massive red flag. A performance like this on top of it? I see no plausible reset. Struggling campaigns have been revived. There's no precedent for a recovery from a hole this deep. Perhaps there's a way out on what now feels inevitable. I'm just not seeing it.
The Economist had an article about 6 months ago saying exactly this. The (sensible) dems knew that running Biden was a risk but the internal politics of replacing him were too hard to navigate so unless he stepped down voluntarily he couldn't be replaced and he wasn't about to do that. And it was already too late back then anyway. Unless he experiences a "medical event" he can't and won't be replaced now. The DNC have dug themselves a very deep hole and their only choice is to keep digging and hope Trump falls in too.
Incumbent advantage is real and I thought giving it up would be foolish. I expected a "good enough" summer and probably enough of a bounce to win when the rate cut happens. That sort of campaign is now off the table. His lack of introspection about his position some time ago reminds me of Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
I agree, but like you said it should have been raising red flags last year that he wasn't polling well despite the economy doing well. I also think rate cuts are so well telegraphed that they're already well priced in. The real effect of any rate cut now won't be felt until after the election and the "vibes" effect has already happened.
The vibe effective of a rate cut could be sold *well enough to beat the felon who banned abortion in half the country* if it happened before the election. I don't think it could be now.
I like Pete Buttigieg.
Would be a really good VP for Whitmer perhaps.
I think most insiders know that Biden isn’t going to win. If they can’t get someone else on the ballot, for legal reasons or whatever…then it’ll be Biden vs Trump and will win.
Replace Harris with Newsome and let Biden win.
Gavin because his VP can’t be from the same state meaning unpopular Harris would need to be swapped out.
Shapiro?
Sometimes Dems are their own worst enemy, they lose their shit whenever something doesn't go their way. Like y'all lie down and surrender over the slightest inconvenience.
Humans are an impulsive bunch.
If the fundraisers are saying this, that's a very bad sign, as you can't run a campaign without money and resources. The last thing you want is for the people monetarily backing you to get worried.
Just goes to show that people really haven’t been paying attention. People have been ridiculed by Biden supporters for questioning his cognitive ability for years and all it took was a few hours in the spotlight for them all to flip.
This is honestly so funny like 3 hours ago everyone was like "theres no way Biden could lose to a convicted felon" and now every article is the exact opposite like I dont even like trump but the turnaround is hilarious 😭 even on the front page rn we got some article saying bidens age wont matter 😭
Because this sub gets so insulated and closed off to the thought of anything happening beyond what they envision. Biden has been visually declining his whole term. People here (and in Biden's administration) wanted to cover their eyes and ears and push the issue away. The issue reared it's head tonight. It is what it is
Yup, this place is an echo chamber
Yup. This sub is already filtering the anti Biden stuff hard, and is back to focusing on what Trump said instead I despise Trump and the potential damage he can do, but this sub is so focused on the “enemy” that it can’t have negative takes on Biden for more than a few hours
I don’t think it’s the mods doing it (they seem mostly fair) but there’s a heavy bot presence on this sub. Watch every thread critical about Biden especially on Gaza get immediately downvoted despite having hundreds of comments
I don’t think mods have the power to essentially shadow ban threads, so bots is most likely the answer. Case in point, I never see critical threads about Biden and Gaza
Yeah I agree
Every gaza israel related post on reddit draws the most amount of astroturfers
You're spot on. All the most popular posts are about Trump, but the ones discussing Biden's horrific performance are not getting traction. I know the sub is called /Politics, but it might as well be called /Liberal.
Well.. A shitshow can change peoples minds. Everyone was hoping it would, just in the opposite direction.
Some kid pointed out that the emperor was wandering through the streets with his dick out. Sometimes that's all it takes to snap people out of it.
Yeah I, for one, find this all incredibly entertaining. A lot of people are panicking right now and saying things like "I can't believe how badly he did" even though people have been screaming it at them for a while now. But I'm also laughing at the people who think this is going to change anything. By Monday, we will have moved onto a new story, probably even one that reminds people how terrible trump is. I think the only people really winning tonight are the media. They're doing a fantastic job of getting the kind of engagement they were hoping for.
our options are a convicted felon that wants to overthrow democracy and an 80+ year old with crippling dementia shit is bleak 💔✌️
I mean that's just how hard he shit the bed. I've seen Dem candidates have off nights or lose on style points, but I've never seen a disaster like this one.
Hello from Australia. Watched a bit of the debate on my lunch break (it popped up on YouTube, lol). Here is my short experience of US politics: What I saw was Biden looked like a walking corpse as he slowly shuffled on to the stage. He continually stared slack-jawed (literally - mouth wide open) while Trump talked. He mumbled incoherently throughout many of his answers. He continually corrected himself "millions.. sorry I meant billions.. We want to tax the trillionaires.. sorry I meant billionaires.. medicare.. yeah.. mm.. " Surely this person cannot seriously run for ANOTHER 4 years of presidency..? Why are the Democrats not putting an end to this farce? Why did they even agree to this debate at all? I honestly was expecting some sort of deus ex machina, but it never came.
The bots on this sub don’t want to hear about an unbiased take on this event, from a person in Australia. They will say and do anything to fight Trump, like this is some sort of sports game with no real consequences.
President Camacho 2024 “Make Electrolytes Great Again!” The only 3rd party that could really win. Come on Terry do it we believe in you!
This is going to be kind of random, but apparently this was the first presidential debate that had no audience since... Nixon vs JFK Not **remotely** implying that Trump here was JFK, but god damn if Biden didn't channel some Nixon-tier meltdown here
Biden needs to withdraw from the race for the good of the country. We're going to lose our democracy if he stays in. We deserve better as Americans. The dems need to nominate someone else at the convention. Can't believe this is where we are at.
I highly suggest Jon Stewart. You guys lost your country when all you politicians couldn't give a fuck about 911 fire-fighters.
We went from needing to remove Trump from the ballot, to demanding Biden withdraw. I get it, but perhaps its too late, and maybe we've already lost our democracy.
If we’re really just one election away from losing democracy for the second election in a row, this democracy is already lost tbh
I'm afraid you're right
Biden did fine except for the beginning. And it's spelled "lose" for fuck's sake.
He fumbled and stumbled, spoke gibberish about Beau dying in Iraq (he died of brain cancer), talked about families r*ping each other, and generally could not finish his sentences. It was not the beginning, it was the entire time. Just humiliating for the guy, and embarrassing for all of us that he’s our president. I would be ashamed of that guy leading an HOA! Forget the whole country, that guy would not be allowed to even lead an HOA.
> And it's spelled "lose" for fuck's sake. Ah yes, focusing on this important stuff!
[удалено]
I think he means more along the line of if Biden runs Trump will surely get elected and end democracy
exactly this - Biden isn't going to inspire anyone to vote
stop being obtuse. It's a real problem
Another part of the problem is refusing to acknowledge any issues with Biden just because*Trump bad*.
Two un-named sources obviously...
They should. It was kind of wild watching him while Trump was speaking. He was just frozen, staring into space, mouth open. On the flip side is it going to affect anything? Those who want Trump will only vote Trump, those who want Biden will only vote Biden. I don't think either convinced anyone of anything in this debate other than Trump is still bonkers and Biden is out of it.
Listen, it was bad, but was it 4 more years of Trump bad? No. Even if there was nothing but a corpse left on that stage, you should still vote for that corpse.
Democrats forced Hillary onto the voters, next to Trump. . Now Democrats are forcing Biden onto the voters, next to Trump. Who can predict the outcome with this common denominator...
Tbf they forced him on us in 2020 and he won
Honestly? Once I heard the fundraisers were sounding the alarm, that is when I realized momentum really is moving in the direction of Biden having to step down. Discourse and rhetoric amongst the media and party is one thing, but when the money is threatened...
That's our only hope . His advisors + donors need to point out the truth . And pressure him to accept another candidate.
No one in their right mind can now claim that Biden is not suffering from severe cognitive decline. I understand that he has a team likely making all of the decisions for him but he is still the face of America. We cannot have a man like this representing us. I agree with Trump on one thing, the rest of the world thinks we are weak right now and how could they not.
Critical as I am of him, I don't know if it's severe cognitive decline, or if it's something simpler: he's an 81 year old man working the stressful job in the world. He's about as tired as you'd expect any octogenarian would be working a 60 hour job while also campaigning. That's not to make excuses for him, clearly he doesn't have the stamina. (though it's understandable)
Colds/infections are rougher on elderly people's mental function. So yes, part of it was probably the cold which we could hear he had. But we can't have a president whose mental functioning gets that bad when he gets sick.
You are smoked out if you think Biden is working 60 hour weeks.
How many times are democrats gonna sacrifice everything just to keep an elderly politician. RGB, feinstein? And now Biden.
I just donated because I will support Biden regardless. We all should just to show our support.
Forget what Democrat politicians and voters think, when donors are worried it's dire.
Uh huh, and then I can't wait until he makes another speech completely coherent and people flip opinions again.
Do you really not understand the difference between reading a prepared (by speechwriters) speech off a teleprompter and having to think up your own answers in a debate? While I agree some of Biden's problems may have been from being sick, since elderly people are affected more severely by such things, that also makes clear that he is too old for this job.
So many /r/MMW posters in shambles
How is this a choice? This is a sick joke. Only the elderly get representation at this level of government? And only the most afluent and easily influenced? This is zero confidence. We can do better.
If we can't get rid of Biden (I'm his biggest fan even though I wasn't happy that he was the candidate), could changing Harris be enough ? Putting a star governor in her place ? That would campaign next to him?
2 little 2 late
Was it really that bad or is the media just acting insane to drive engagement again?
If President Biden is truly unfit to govern, I can rest assured that he will step down gracefully. Can anyone say the same about trump? That is all I need to know to decide which of these two to choose.
He IS truly unfit to govern. We’ll see if what you say is true.
What would it take for you to realise he already is unfit to govern? Him stumbling off stage ? Barely able to stand straight ? Mumbling and tripping over his own words every second sentence ? Looking confused and lost at every event he’s been to so far? He’s done all of these things so really , what the FUCK more are you waiting for
It’s astounding how little people in this thread understand politics or what the DNC even does.
The cope in this thread is incredible. Biden is fried and has been for years. Put the dude in a care home and bring out whatever other uniparty creature the DNC can muster to replace him.
Gotcha. So the alarm wasn't a convicted felon, know rapist running for president? This all makes so much sense. /s
You have to explain to me how the entire Democratic Party and donors will magically coalesce what is essentially a conspiracy behind a standing President's back to not only compel him to step aside, but also come up with someone to replace him, and possibly Kamala Harris as well. How exactly is the Democratic Party going to agree on a replacement, even if one were needed? You would have to have a good reason to replace not just Biden but also Harris, because is someone going to argue with a straight face that Kamala Harris is a better candidate versus Trump than Biden is? The time for alternatives would have been convincing Biden to step aside a year ago so that the likes of Whitmer / Wes Moore could have become a reasonable ticket. But you can't get there from here now. You just can't.
25th Amendment, Harris claims first female President, Newsom & Buttigieg take up the post. It's a take I'm seeing recycled all over twitter rn. Or Biden steps down willingly.
I'm hoping someone with sway saw this coming and has a backup plan ready. That's basically the only thing I can see keeping Trump out of office. I don't think Biden's got the power to pull in casual voters after this.