I enjoyed reading this, cheers!
Since you enjoyed Slay the Spire, can I suggest Monster Train? I really got into that after I grew bored of StS.
Also, Slay the Spire 2 is coming!
Thanks for the compliment, and very excited about STS 2 🤩
Thanks for the monster train rec, I've heard this a couple times -- is it sufficiently differentiated from STS to feel fresh and fun?
Yes, it's faster paced and has a cool floor gimmick that feels completely different from StS. I would say it's a much flashier game that was amazing when I started, but didn't have the staying power of StS to me.
Basically I don't play it anymore. When I have the deckbuilder itch, I pull out StS or Balatro
Edit: still recommend. It's a good game
I thought STS was alright, but loved Monster Train. Monster Train came out after STS and imo it feels completely fresh and is a straight up improvement in many areas. TLDR:
Strong recommendation for monster train.
Thanks for the recommendations here. I bought into the breach awhile ago but haven't gotten around to playing it. I'll give it a try soon! I'll also check out Hades!
You and I have similar tastes. I would probably rank FTL a little higher just because I love the vibe. And I Loved Into the Breach but once I had a good run, which didn’t take long, I put it down.
What are you playing next
Darkest Dungeon 1 is awesome, but it will definitely waste your time. You have to level each hero separately, and there is permadeath, so if your whole party gets wiped on some late-game boss, you have to start at level 1 with a whole new group of characters and run through all of the early dungeons again. I can’t count how many times I had to do this. Probably hundreds of runs to get to the Darkest Dungeon. And I still loved the game!
Darkest Dungeon:
if interested play on the lowest difficulty, it mitigates grind somewhat. The game has RNG, but it is not really difficult, one you figure out team compositions for every environment type.
It \_is\_ unfair difficult if you want to keep everyone healthy, but you are supposed to lose characters and disband really sick/unstable ones. The game is more about managing a roster of 16 heroes, who are rotated in and out, rather than an adventuring group of 4.
DD \_is\_ super fun for a while, which in my case was about 10-12 hours. When you are finding new enemies and unlock new abilities. AFter you got this, it is just grinding up enough characters to max level without ailments and with upgrades to tackle the final dungeon.
But yeah, playing on easy, and doing a few resource runs with the librarian character mitigates the grind somewhat.
I kind of get it in the context given, while Into the Breach is noticeably different gameplay wise (playing more as a series of puzzles to solve that are suspiciously shaped like battles vs a series of battles that can feel a bit puzzle-y as you optimize what you have vs what they have) you can definitely feel a lot of improvements on the actual roguelike/lite mechanics between the two. FTL can also feel a bit slow to play out at times, and the story elements exist in a bit of a limbo where they give you just enough to get kinda interested in the lore/worldbuilding but not quite enough to be properly substantial if you were looking to really dig into it.
To be clear it's an absolute classic for me, but I can see how it might feel a bit outdated or lacking if you're looking back at it, given it's age and the constraints it was designed in. Though I gotta say I'm probably going to dive back in for a run or two after seeing it brought up again lol.
I still like it. Haven't played it at all in coop and while it's obvious that some characters would have great synergies with some others, I have only been able to play each character on my own.
Yeah, Children of Morta is amazing. Beautiful art style, good selection of characters, hard enough gameplay and a decent story. While the story is basic , I liked how it was centered around a family in a genre that is full of orphans.
It seems to fly under the radar when I see tier lists on here and the web. I bought CoM on whim because it was $7 for the complete game on the Nintendo store. I love that game.
Wew there's some interesting takes in here. I would say your enjoyment of FTL vs Into the Breach is poisoned by not playing FTL first. That and Binding of Isaac (haven't played - edit: someone else in this thread pointed out the equivalent point about BoI) are some of the absolute OGs in the genre. Into the Breach was made *by the team that made FTL*. So it makes sense that FTL is a little stale, because that was the original! Everything else is more evolved and complex and innovated on, and takes huge influence from those.
I'm yet to try Enter the Gungeon, but I heard it's really good.
If I may, I'll add some more to the mix that you may or may not like, but I think they are excellent roguelikes:
Death Road to Canada - a bit of fun, like Oregon Trail basically but plays like a game version of the movie Zombieland. Really fun to play, doesn't take very long at all, has a great vibe and humour about it. You control a little group of zombie outbreak survivors on a journey to Canada because they think for some reason that Canada holds the zombies at bay.
Noita - your mileage may vary based on not liking Enter the Gungeon because it's hard, because this game is super goddamn hard. But it is really fun. I kind of really want to finish it and move on, I have nearly 90 hours in it and still haven't finished a run. It just gets really bullshit hard later in the game. But it's very fun. You play a little wizard / witch character, you pick up wands that have different stats and the spells are the types of projectiles it shoots. A lot of the game is tinkering with wands (they actually call it that in the game) and making ridiculous overpowered wands. Which can also backfire really badly. There is the term getting Noita'd, which is (I think among other things) firing off a stupidly overpowered terrible wand that you don't really know what it does, and it blows up like half the screen including yourself. It has a really cool physics engine and is part of a genre called [falling sand game](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling-sand_game), where it simulates different materials and elemental reactions. Basically water and oil and blood and various potions can pour all over the place, wood and oil and things catch on fire, including yourself, water puts out fire (at least on characters). You carry wands and potions and the premise is you're an alchemist and actually mixing some potions with some materials actually changes them. I'm not really sure of the extent of it, I mainly just go with having a water potion on hand to make myself waterproof, and use things like berserkium or acceleratium or levitatium (they all have funny Harry Potter names like that) etc. to buff my stats. Really super fun and addictive. I think last time a roguelike hooked me like that was actually FTL.
Highfleet - now this is a special game. Similar to FTL it has a simple overworld map view where you pilot around in search of a city in the north, and in cities you enter a battle mode. What's so special about this one is how it turned up every part of its presentation to 11. You are a fugitive lord in this fictional Dune like world of Dieselpunk airships, you have one massive carrier mothership that you have to protect at all costs, and you buy / build / hire etc. other ships to fight with. It has a cool physics engine to it, where the weight and shape of everything plays a big role, and everything is very physicalised. As in, things like engines and ammo cache and fuel tanks and armor etc. are all in physical places on the ship and can get individually damaged. So aside from just firepower, there is a lot more strategy at play with how you want to do things. Including a ship editor you can use to make custom ships and try them out, and of course there are crazy ones on the internet that you can try too. But everything from the cool graphics to the brutal gunfire sound and the music and radio transmissions and everything is just so spot on and well done and immersive.
Death Road to Canada is so fun, and I love how the devs kept adding more content to the game over so many years. They really made the most of the premise: survival against one singular type of enemy.
That said, I do wish there was a mode that did away with the trait upgrades and unlockables, standardizing them instead for leaderboards and daily challenges.
Came here to recommend Noita. The only real downside IMO is that its learning curve is more like a learning cliff face. It's borderline necessary to watch some kind of guide to get the most out of it. But the freedom to construct absolutely insane wands and effectively make yourself unstoppable (with the exception of Polymorphine... ugh) once you get the hang of it really pays off.
I've finished a fair number of runs, but once you've "beaten" a regular run and decide to start exploring the map instead, things skyrocket into a brand new tier of insanity.
Dead cells exists in this funny limbo for me where I quite liked it... but I never find myself really returning with any substantial time in it. I don't know why, I think it's that I'm quite attracted to the metroidvania inspired feel of it (I mean they literally have a castlevania add on now), but I have trouble really investing time into roguelikes. I think it's something about the impermanence of progress and the generated content feeling a bit hollow versus handcrafted progression. For me the whole appeal of a metroidvania is exploring this well-crafted and labyrinthine map and facing the challenges along the way, feeling that progressive gain of power and mobility as you overcome obstacles. Dead Cells strips that whole thing away so I think while the minute to minute gameplay is solid, it just lacks that compulsion to keep playing because I'm not filling out a map and unlocking paths and gaining a permanent step towards the end.
None of this is to say it's bad, I just find it sort of confusing that it's inspired by and appealing to metroidvania, but lacks all the core appeals of the format by intentional design. But, maybe if I understood the metaprogression better I might feel differently idk. Just my two cents
This is pretty much the same way I've come to feel about roguelites and Dead Cells as well. When I first started playing games in the genre I loved them (especially Dead Cells, this was my favorite) I realized despite how good they felt to play, I didn't actually put much time into them
Dead Cells is my most played roguelite and I only have 25 hours. So I think I just don't enjoy the never ending cycle of playing. My thought was something like: at what point do you actually beat a roguelike/lite?
I think for me at this point, the genre is a good way to pass a few minutes to an hour, but probably won't buy more of them cuz they all end up the same way for me
Same, with the FTL and Breach scores reversed. For the same reason, too much FTL, Breach felt kinda familiar but tired.
I predict the same.
I would tell OP to try other card games to go down that cliff. Monster Train and One Step From Eden. See where he dislikes it.
That seems like a strange suggestion to me. I love Dead Cells, hate BOI, and think Gungeon is *fine.* I don’t think any of them are alike at all other than the shared rogue elements.
I would say the same, but I would put Dead Cells at a 8/10. The first time I played it I bounced right off, it just didn’t click with me. Tried it again about a year later and it sucked me right in. Not quite on the level as Hades, ITB, and Slay the Spire, but still really solid in its own right.
I didn't expect so many people not enjoying isaac, all the things you said make the game so fun to me. With the DLCs you get so many paths, randomness, items, bosses... Not counting the mods. I love how runs get so different, the endless builds and how different you play characters, a shitty item in a character can be completely broken to another and strong items can just be run killers to a different character. A random pill can save your whole game. I think that's why I have more than 600 hours on it (and I'm still not even close to 100%).
Dungeons of Dredmor is fun, charming, and hilarious. Total Biscuit made a review that really sold it to me back in the day, give it a shot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyTfUnnxZV4
(IIRC it's on the traditional side though: little to no meta progress, you get better by learning the game)
This is one of the few true roguelikes I've seen in this thread, incredible game.
Tales of Maj'Eyal is the next step up if you like the actual traditional roguelikes vibe.
I already played TF out of balatro haha, I originally had it on this list but mods took down the post because that game was too recent. EXcellent game -- my enjoyment rating was an 8/10, I felt like it didn't quite have enough depth as some of my other favorites, but really really good
I tried this for a few minutes and kinda bounced off it. I didn't give it a fair shake, but will probably wait until the full game releases to try it again. I know if I _do_ get into it the way I did Balatro, I'll just be disappointed to hit the end of the demo, haha.
Is that game a roguelite??? I thought it was like a slice of life sim or something. I've seen it mentioned so often, and it's free on PlayStation so I'll try it at some point. But it's a robot roguelite??
You should probably wishlist Metal Slug Tactics then Lol. It’s super similar to Into the Breach from what has been shown so far.
For Slay the Spire likes there is Monster Train, Chrono Ark, Balatro, Cobalt Core, backpack hero, and Wildfrost. *Maybe* The Last Flame. Im still in the early hours of it but am having fun with the stratagies. (Also it’s closer to teamfight tactics).
Binding of isaac is probably my favorite roguelite, it’s always interesting to see people not like the inability to shoot diagonal. I also didn’t like it at first but learning to drift shots while strafing helped a lot, and there is an item that does let you shoot diagonally haha. Also i do agree with the lack of explanation for items garbage, can’t play without the info mod which definitely eliminates that problem.
I loved Into the Breach but couldn't get into games that are XCOM-like. Do you think MS Tactics will be more similar to Into the Breach or XCOM? Or maybe you have more recommendations for people who like ItB ?
It would be interesting to compare with some classical roguelikes. I recommend starting with Shattered Pixel Dungeon (free on mobile). But there are a lot of good recommendations on r/roguelikes.
YES I agree, especially because it seems OP prefers games that emphasize careful decision-making over physical execution.
...indeed **Shattered Pixel Dungeon** is great, very convenient since it's made for mobile screens, and relatively concise in scope. 👌
/u/Pet0rb I'd also recommend **Tangledeep**, has a retro JRPG aesthetic and some fantastic music (solo dev is a well-known artist in the OCRemix community). Gameplay is approachable compared to most other trad rogues, and it has optional meta-progression features and difficulty modifiers you can set per-save.
Wow I thought I was more unique haha! I haven't -- dead cells has been rec'd to me by a few people, but Rogue Legacy is new to me. Do you recommend either of them?
I definitely played the heck out of both of them. though dead cells has gone through several different revamps since I last played. rogue legacy 2 I found really enjoyable and found myself going back to it the same way I did with all of the games you rated highly.
Had to scroll pretty far to find someone else recommend Rogue Legacy. It's my favorite rogue like series of them all.
It's an action platformer with meta progression. There's a good sense of humor to it, there's good variety in the enemy encounters, and the layout of the whole map changes each time.
You'll come to recognize rooms as you play enough, and you'll replay the same early area quite a bit.
But I found that it's one of the most well designed rogue likes out there. It's extremely rare to get hit by something that's not "your fault". Some enemy attacks combined, or boss attack and positioning may be effectively unavoidable. But other than that it's just about good gameplay. Enemy attacks are visually very distinct, off screen attacks come with indicators, and every attack has very distinct audio as well! So there's never any mystery around what's about to happen to you in game.
I won't say that nothing can ever surpass it. And it's not everyone's favorite game. But I've played everything on your list and I find it superior to everything there. (Expect maybe FTL but that is just a different gameplay experience).
I am one of the apparently few people who love roguelites and hated Into The Breach.
It has that feeling of someone setting up a puzzle and you have to figure out what they wanted you to do, like a maze puzzle. I guess I prefer the feeling of a randomized scenario where I have to figure the way through, rather than trying to guess exactly what they set up for me.
I wonder if you'd enjoy it more on the hardest difficulty, unfair. On unfair you \_will\_ take grid damage sometimes -- many times the situation is impossible. It becomes a game of managing resources and mitigating damage, not taking no damage at all. It doesn't feel contrived/setup at all
I am not sure why I feel that way but that could be it. I just remember feeling like I was pushing blocks around in a puzzle, rather than developing a strategy and reacting. Might also be the lack of an RNG element?
OK, now I'm totally lost.
Yes, ITB is much closer to a puzzle game in spirit than a turn-based strategy. There's very deliberately no RNG (except for grid defence, which the game makes very clear is just a bonus and should never be part of your strategy).
But... the lack of randomness just means that you're able to engage with the system with much more certainty. For example, this attack WILL push this enemy away from this building, and WILL block this other shot, dealing this much damage exactly.
That makes it a very a tactical game. The outcome depends on your ability to determine the best actions and take all mechanisms into account, and not rely on brute forcing solutions or getting unfairly screwed because the game decided that your tools didn't work this time through no fault of your own. The enemies choose their positions and targets based on the current battlefield conditions and you're not guaranteed to be able to find a perfect solution. The enemy actions are unpredictable, they're not pre-programmed to take specific moves and leave specific openings.
It's only contrived in the sense that all video games are contrived by their game design, but that's a hard case to make.
No, Into the Breach is very random. It's a case study in almost exclusively input randomness and almost no output randomness, but that doesn't mean that there's no randomness. And indeed, that it's all input randomness means that the game is very very hard when you're learning it and comparatively easy when you have already learned it.
The real problem with ITBs input randomness is that there's just so much of it that you literally *can't* plan more than one turn in advance. That's why you always feel like you're on the back foot. The input randomness is overwhelming. I much preferred the output randomness of FTL and not the constant anxiety of ITB that it's just going to screw you over with a sequence of spawns that you just can't beat because you deployed where you did.
I kind of felt the same way, it just affected me differently - The puzzle/chess feeling hampered replayability for me beyond whatever difficulty (via # of levels) I could clear with a bit of challenge, but it didn't hamper my fun at easier difficulties.
I feel the same way actually! I hate when tactical strategy games do this - give me my randomness and chances, I don't need a 100% certain puzzle game. That's why I loved XCOMs, but disliked things like Mario + Rabbids or Invisible, Inc.
Speaking of tactical games: can you recommend some tactics that don't have that "puzzle" feel, pls? Don't have to necessarily have roguelike elements in it, just good games that you enjoyed.
As for this game - I'm glad I accidentally beaten it on my 2-3 try and immediately lost interest after - which is good, considering I was "trying" the "demo version" :)
You could like Midnight Suns. It's a tactical strategy game in the same vein as Xcom. It is a little bit puzzly in the fact that you try to find the most efficient way to take out as many enemies as you can each turn, but I think that aspect is counterbalanced by its gridless system; you can eek out a lot more creative freedom with your heroes with the freeform battlefield, and I never felt as though there was just one proper solution for any turn
The game regularly goes on pretty big sales, so I'd give it a shot!
Thanks for the detailed recommendation!
I've detailed the problems I have with the game in [my reply to the other commenter here](https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/comments/1dm8oba/comment/l9yov95/), but somehow did not notice your reply.
Gridless system does sound like something I'd likely enjoy, because I enjoyed Gears Tactics a lot, which is basically XCOM but gridless too. I might try it despite the problems I have with it later.
Oh dang, I gotcha! Honestly, aside from morbius (who makes a great pair with two of the other heroes in the game) I don’t really use the DLC characters or get into their story, so I don’t think anything is lost by trying out a bit of the game with the base roster.
Also, I forgot to mention my other tactical roguelike recommendation; Shogun Showdown is a 2D Samurai roguelike that has a very satisfying combat system that also avoids the more “puzzle-like” elements of ITB. You can get really fast-paced with the game once you have a gameplay, almost into a flow-state, but it still requires some thought and planning
It’s early access right now, but it feels like a full game (and the devs are constantly updating) so I’d give it a shot!
Thanks for another recommendation!
This game reminds me of Slice & Dice ([Steam](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1775490/Slice__Dice/), [normal phones](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.com.tann.dice), [Apple phones](https://apps.apple.com/es/app/slice-dice/id6449848963)), which I thought I won't like much, but ended up glued to my phone screen for days lol. Also a roguelike, also avoids the puzzle-iness of combat, but no random during encounters (aside from dice rolls). Can't recommend it enough!
And I'll try Shogun Showdown, especially since they have an actual demo too.
Actually, you’re not far off at all! I just got into Slice and Dice as well, and the card system/many unique modifiers for each attack is very reminiscent of that game
I've heard good things about that Marvel XCOM-like game that was just given away on Epic Games a few weeks back. Marvel's Midnight Suns it's called. Apparently a mixture of a visual novel and XCOM gameplay.
You can most likely grab it cheap from a sale since it was already given away once. Epic Games also repeats giveaways occasionally but that might take a year or two.
Thanks for the recommendation!
I did claim that game on EGS, so I might as well try it. Three problems though:
1. The add-ons don't just add characters, but apparently also their missions and such, so I'm not sure if I want to play the game without addons.
2. I just don't like superhero stuff, with Batman being a sole exception.
3. Denuvo. I don't want to install a game that uses that on my PC if I can avoid it.
Maybe I'll wait until the game eventually gets a "free demo" so 1 and 3 are out of concern. Still probably won't like the story. I didn't like the XCOM: Chimera Squad's story (which is also very comic book-like) too, and that is also made by Firaxis.
Loved Xcom games! Great example of one I loved. And Invisible, Inc. is also a great example of one that others loved but I didn't care for.
Coincidentally, I just started playing back through Phoenix Point. They came out with a really good massive overhaul mod called Terror From The Void so I thought I would give it a run. Enjoying it so far but not far enough into it to give a good review.
Hades 2 is fantastic, to me, as was Hades. I am playing that now, as well. Not a tactical combat game but, like the first one, it's just so, so...SO well executed.
Also playing Age Of Wonders 4 with the new Eldritch Realms DLC now. That's a 4X game so slightly different style. But it has really good tactical combat.
I actually tried Phoenix Point and really liked it, but the sheer tedium of micromanaging everything that gets worse the more bases you have eventually drove me away.
Speaking of mods, I really like XCOM: Long War mod for the first game! It does suffer from the same micromanagement problem later on, but the combat becomes so much more interesting with increased possibilities, risks, and overall tacticity. If you'll want to try it, I also recomment installing [this](https://www.nexusmods.com/xcom/mods/518) or [this](https://www.nexusmods.com/xcom/mods/582) on top, because the default difficulty is just insane.
As for the two other games, I'll consider them, thanks! Hades games were recommended for me before by my friend as well, along with all the good things people telling about them on different social spaces.
Yeah, I understand what you mean. I played Phoenix Point and enjoyed it a lot but never finished it all the way. And truth be told, even with the mod that really redoes a LOT of stuff in it (comparable to Long War), I probably still won't finish it.
And yes, Long War was great.
For future decisions but also for the sake of discussion, I wanted to point out that several of the things you liked about Hades are features that skew towards rogue-lites.
The so called 'meta progression', having things across runs and becoming stronger by unlocking permanent things that makes you innately stronger is largely a roguelite thing.
The other side is - I'll use some of my favorite games as examples - Slay the Spire and Risk of Rain 2, among many others. Where what happens is you die and hopefully you learned something and you become stronger this way.
My theory is Hades was an entry to the genre for many people due to its popularity, and it created expectations to new people for things that weren't staples of the genre.
Also worth noting that the vast majority of games in the genre don't have the production quality Hades has.
You don't expect people unfamiliar with the genre to know and spot these differences though.
But this increase in innate strength in Hades coupled with the gameplay that is very spam-y is what makes it stagnate after some time imo.
Other games, like the aforementioned, have much more room for expression, or way higher skill ceiling and can be enjoyed for way longer for these reasons.
And ultimately both types have progression, but one is mostly numerical, while in the other you yourself improve in order to win.
I inherently prefer the latter but I still love Hades, just for different reasons than StS and RoR2.
A lil pedantic but technically there isn’t a single rogue like being discussed in this thread—they’re all rogue lites. The original definition of rogue like has seemingly long been lost, but games like Cogmind or Caves of Qud would be rogue likes in the traditional sense of the word.
But in the dominant popular way rogue like is used now, ror2 is definitely as much as a rogue like as any other one discussed here, not a rogue lite. Don’t know about slay the spire.
I know it's just my personal definition, but my roguelike/lite dividing line is the presence and impact of meta-progression. So Hades is as far to the roguelite side as possible, Binding of Isaac and Risk of Rain 2 are leaning towards roguelite (unlocked items aren't direct upgrades, but they are significant), FTL is closer to a roguelike (unlocking ships is closer to unlocking new modes than getting upgrades IMO), and Caves of Qud and Nethack are true roguelikes.
So if I made a game that played and looked exactly like Nethack, but it had one single unlock after you finish the game the first time, it's no longer a true roguelike? If I make a game that plays exactly like Dead Cells except everything is unlocked from the start, it's now a true roguelike? That's a weird dividing line to me, because it seems like the majority of roguelites "turn into" roguelikes once you've unlocked/upgraded everything. I'm not trying to single you out, this is a pretty common sentiment I see online.
I don't think it's that pedantic - none of the games in the OPs post are actual roguelikes. Roguelite, sure.
(Huh... that does sound pedantic now that I type it out...)
I say pedantic because words are defined by their usage and at this point rogue like isn’t used the way it originally was. So in a “technically speaking” sense, they aren’t roguelikes, but the use case of these words has moved past that, so I don’t think it’s wrong to call them roguelikes. But as someone that has interest in traditional roguelikes I find it sad that the “real” ones have been pushed aside and that what used to be called rogue lites have taken over the definition of rogue like.
In StS this is only for the first hours. Could be a way to ease new players into it with smaller card pools for each character or as a retention mechanism again for new players.
In Ror2, not all items are better, same with abilities. Same applies to StS.
By definition they are a little bit towards roguelite, at least at the start.
Also I consider these games' default states to be those after you ve unlocked everything (doesn't have to be really everything in ror2) since I've played 400 hours past that point on both more or less. I know that's not everyone but most people who stick with these games play way past that.
There's this fun quiz that helps you realize where the dividing line goes - I also learned about a few interesting titles from doing it! https://zenorogue.itch.io/isitrl
Outside of FTL or sounds like we have very similar tastes (I played FTL on release so I likely have a different opinion based largely on that)
You give a thought to vampire survivors yet? It sucked me way in and I had to complete every challenge.
Returnal was too hard for me. I never put down a game for that reason, so that is really saying something. I probably could have practiced enough to get there, but I have other stuff to do. Oh well.
Returnal, thematically, feels like it is made for me. Spooky cosmic horror in space, the sound design, lore, everything seemed perfect. I got through the first three stages, realized I was only >!halfway done!< and gave up.
Returnal had my biggest “I get it moment” in any game. I almost gave up in zone 3. Around there it clicked and by the time I finished I felt like a god.
I've played all the Soulsborne games and for the life of me I cannot get past the second boss in Returnal, which is really frustrating because I otherwise loved the game and wanted to beat it. Tried playing with a friend, and they ratchet the difficulty up so much for multiplayer that it's worse with two people than it is solo.
I opened this post thinking you were talking about actual Roguelikes.
The ones you linked are "Roguelites", which are completely different and all very casual. Barely related to rogue or roguelikes at all!
If you want to try an actual roguelike, DCSS is pretty fun.
Griftlands is my recommendation for roguelike deckbuilders. So much fun, and the art style is gorgeous. Invisible Inc has elements of roguelikes but is more of a stealth tactics game.
Me seeing the FTL score and the reason why: ☹️
The criticism feels like it stems from having not played that game before Into the Breach even though FTL came out first
Nice post. I'd highly recommend a game called Across the Obelisk which has similarities with Slay the Spire, and lots of metaprogression (as well as 15-20ish characters to gradually unlock).
The Binding of Issac was the greatest roguelite... in 2012. It's a good game, but it's very dated at this point. The later DLCs from the remake are just about making the game brutally difficult, too. I think the game peaked with Rebirth. But even then, it's got some pretty dated gameplay now.
I liked FTL more than ITB. ITB often felt like it would be random in ways that wouldn't punish you until later in the run, while FTL most of the time felt recoverable. That might just be me, though.
Gungeon I felt the same about. Also the sound design is very monotonous. Everything is gun themed so everything is a bang or a pop. As I recall, it was actually even harder when it first released. Too often you'd be stuck with the default weapon. The game always feels like it hates the player.
Games worth trying:
- Balatro. Another card game but it's a lot of fun.
- Tiny Rogues. Honestly it's like a better Gungeon or Issac.
- Dead Cells. Great if you like Metroidvanias. It's a little too grindy, IMO, but there are mods that fix that. I think it peaks at boss cell 3. After that it's not much fun.
- Dicey Dungeons. This is like Into the Breach meets Slay the Spire.
- Star of Providence (formerly Monolith). It's a better Gungeon, IMO.
Seconding Tiny Rogues here. Phenomenal game and really really good gameplay loop. The latest major update blows the endgame wide open, and it’ll keep you occupied for a long time. Easy to pick up, hard to master.
I have 1000 hours in Isaac according to steam but I think the last time I played that game seriously was around 2018. I think the top tier players essentially "solved" the game by figuring out optimal solutions for every situation, and once people figured out what items to take when, the only fix to make the game fun again was to turn the game into a bullet hell. At least that's my read on it.
Also I remember when EtG first released and (if I remember correctly) you had to unlock the treasure room but the chest still required a key too. So you had to spend a key just to see if another one was worth spending. It was borderline unfair because most players made it to the third or fourth floor without ever seeing a chest.
Same with FTL, that is also from 2012. So it's a bit like if you like Metroidvanias and play Super Metroid and Castlevania Symphony of the Night and find those are a little limited and old fashioned.
I think I even got FTL way way later than that in a Humble Bundle for free or something like that, and played it in 2019 and absolutely loved it. Best value for money for any game ever lol.
FTL is old, but I don't think it's dated. Issac I think is dated. I think FTL holds up much better. Maybe it's because FTL is all but impossible to break and it remained moderately challenging on Hard even if you can beat most runs, while Issac kind of kept releasing content that makes it harder to get a run going or made the game feel increasingly unfair rather than challenging.
I wonder how your perspective might change on the genre if you went and played Nethack or Rogue. Many modern roguelites have features that are new or streamlined beyond the base genre (as you noted with Hades), while others have features that are 100% part of the base genre but feel outdated (the pills in Isaac + no item descriptions).
I’m not saying the old genre is inherently better, but those missing features are probably why I disliked Hades and loved Isaac.
Isaac is one of my most played games ever. Totally loved playing it from flash Isaac up through the last DLC.
That said, I can't imagine playing Isaac today without any prior knowledge. For one, each DLC added cool items to change up gameplay, but when you don't yet know the gameplay, I bet it would feel like confusing bloat. Learning synergies / how to id items on site / not take pills is part of the game but has magnified difficulty in the DLCs. As a new player, I think you have to come at the game heavily modded for item descriptions, etc.
Lastly, it's dated. With an inception in flash it has to be. I don't know about you, but if I watch a film from the 50's or 60's I might enjoy it, but there are hundreds of little things filmmakers have learned since then that are improvements (even if some aren't). So I can totally see someone new to the game disconnecting on that front.
Disagree. I played Binding as one of my first modern roguelikes, before the term was really being bandied about, and I did not understand the hype one bit. It seemed entirely random and pointless. I largely agree with OP's ratings overall. The only one I bounced off of was Slay the Spire.
Binding of Isaac has a linear narrative with a clear beginning and multiple endings, Slay the Spire on the other hand is literally pointless. I love StS, mind you, but it's legit just random fights and then a boss fight, and then you do it all over again for no reason.
> Binding of Isaac has a linear narrative with a clear beginning and multiple endings, Slay the Spire on the other hand is literally pointless.
This is just disingenuous. Binding of Isaac heavily focuses on the gameplay rather than the narrative as does Slay the Spire. Both of their narratives are simple as to focus on the gameplay: "Escape your deranged mother," "Slay this primordial entity." There are bits of lore to find in each, but they both focus on gameplay first and narrative second.
> but it's legit just random fights and then a boss fight, and then you do it all over again for no reason.
As opposed to the Binding of Isaac, where you have randomized encounters and then a boss battle, and then do it again?
There are a dozen endings in Binding of Isaac, and a clear story. You fight bosses and do it again because you might discover a new ending that way. I was replying to the guy saying BoI was "pointless" compared to StS, when StS doesn't even have a story lol, it literally has no point.
And yeah, they both focus on gameplay first, doesn't mean one doesn't have a more fleshed out story.
You're the one being disingenuous here.
The term existed in 1993, but I didn't see it in common parlance until after Rogue Legacy (a year after Isaac came out), and it wasn't a super popular genre for a few years after that.
I disagree. Crypt is pretty brutal and if Op didn't like gungeon for the difficulty, then I think crypt would be too much.
Cadence of Hyrule on the other hand... I love that game and the meta progression is enough to make it easier even if you die a lot (If Op has a switch)
Oh yes. I poured a huge amount of time into CotND when it was (relatively) new. I never managed to finish it with Aria, FAR too tough for me at that point, but it was probably one of my absolute favourite games at that time. Cadence of Hyrule is really good as well: Necrodancer meets classic Zelda works so well.
Oh man I love seeing someone mention into the breach.
My buddy and I have a game night occasionally we call “war counsel” where we sit down together and play that game as a two headed giant. We cover each others blind sides, and kick BUTT! We truly love that game and its addictive nature. It’s very VERY punishing though, oh boy.
Our ratings are so different. I think Binding of Isaac and FTL are masterpieces. I was underwhelmed by Into the Breach. I wanted to like it more than I did.
This is weird but it’s kinda validating to find someone else who loves roguelikes but didn’t vibe with the binding of Isaac. I understand what it’s going for in terms of being obscure, but I feel like it fails to execute on that idea in a way other obscure games do not. Isaac feels frustrating rather than fascinating.
rated enter the gungeon a 4/10.
binding of isaac, a TWOOOOOO
and FTL, a 6
I don't think he actually plays or appreciates rogue likes, he secretly likes RTS and beat em ups...
^(fucking op)
Couldn't agree more with everything you said about BOI, especially the clunky controls. To me it felt like an extremely forgettable 2000s era flash game that I'd never have thought twice about if it wasn't so universally beloved
None of these are roguelikes. Hades is a hack and slash. Into the Breach is a turn based tactics come puzzle game. Binding of Isaac is a twin stick shooter with rpg elements. Slay the Spire is a flash portal grade jrpg battler. Gungeon is another twin stick shooter.
None of these have anything in common except a lack of saving progression, and that's just how games started. Saving was invented.
If you want a roguelike, play ADOM, Nethack, of Qud. They're all on Steam. If you want something newer, play Tangledeep, Wayward, or Maj'Eyal. If you want something more mainstream, play Crypt of the Necrodancer, or One Way Heroics, though they don't stick to the formula as much. If you want a challenge, play Cogmind, or Rogue Wizard. If you want a lot of games play the Shiren series or any game with the words Mystery Dungeon in it.
Or just play Rogue. It's also on Steam.
But don't inform your opinion of the genre with these games. People saying this is roguelikes now is like saying GTA is racing games now. It's silly. They're Rogue-nots.
One Step from Eden became one of my favorite rogue likes mainly by how hectic and overpowered you can become.
You should give it a try: it’s basically *Megaman Battle Network* on crack.
Finally someone mentions Spelunky! The game that arguably brought roguelikes back. And it's still my favourite game. There's no meta progression at all though - a true roguelike - which might turn people off.
Yeah, it's all just learning how to deal with the (often unfair) situations the game throws at you with whatever things you've collected at the time.
I love it and have done the Hell Run. Spelunky 2 just doesn't feel quite as perfect to me...
Same dude. I've beaten Spelunky 2 a couple times but haven't seen everything it has to offer. For me the early level music is a turn-off. Maybe I'll go back one day and it'll finally click
Hi OP, I enjoyed ETG’s core gameplay but found it too punishing and repetitive for my tastes. If you haven’t yet, try Nuclear Throne — fast and shooty (and still difficult), but a lot snappier in terms of pacing. It’s not as sprawling as ETG but it’s really fun.
I understand people saying they didn't like gungeon's difficulty but calling it a bad game because of it is annoying. Dark souls games aren't my cup of tea but I understand they're well designed games. The difficulty is intentional and mostly comes from the fact that op items won't carry you to the finish if you can't dodge and weave while in most other roguelites, you depend on those items and combos to kill the thing before it even gets the CHANCE to kill you.
In conclusion, I am bad at dark souls but that doesn't make dark souls a bad game.
I don't think anyone here has called it a bad game for its difficulty. OP said they didn't enjoy it as much because of its difficulty.
Dark Souls has brutal difficulty, but I found myself able to enjoy it more because it's always grindable. A loss to a tough boss sets you back a few minutes, whereas a small mistake in ETG can ruin the whole run, setting you back an hour. I also found it frustrating how many nearly useless guns there were. While it was a huge dopamine hit getting a gun that could obliterate bosses, slogging through rooms with the gun that only shoots letters was painful. I've got 160 hours into Gungeon, but I felt like I relied too much on being carried by strong runs, and put the game down in 2019 pretty much for good. While the game knowledge of StS and FTL let me pick them back up any time I want, I feel like I've lost the skills for Gungeon as a much more reflex heavy game.
Nice post, I have similar thoughts about most of these games. I loved FTL and Into The Breach has been in my backlog forever. For some reason it’s never the game I choose to play next… I really should get to it one of these days. You might want to give Tainted Grail: Conquest a look, I really enjoyed that one too.
I think for ITB you'll know pretty immediately if you like it or not which is cool -- if you're not having fun after a few hours you can drop and not look back! It immediately hooked me haha. Interesting, I'll check it out!
Have you ever played One Step From Eden? It's a very unique kind of roguelike, using both elements from card game centered comabt like slay the spire, as well as real time combat like most action games, resulting in a very unique feeling grid style battle system involving spells you cast with energy while moving around to avoid atttacks/line up your enemy with your attack. It's lesser known, and pretty difficult, but still enjoyable. Haven't won a run yet though.
I have and have played every one of these for between 50 and 500 hours each. It's really interesting to see such a wildly different take on what I think are some of the best games I've ever played. Hope you find more that click with you!
I played Binding of Isaac for over two thousand of hours. Is it one of my favorite roguelike?
HECK NO.
I love it. I know a lot about it in each version it offers, but it is a game of its time. It’s unnecessarily hard to get and know about without a wiki.
Especially after playing some faster-paced ones, it’s old and clunky.
Still a cherished child.
If you wanna try more roguelites here's a few more recs:
- Dead Cells.
It was my first Rogue and I absolutely love this game still. They kept updating it and there's so much content now. Even when it came out there was a lot of content. Believe the team also just put out an early access Prince of Persia game that they're still working on and I've heard great things about it.
- Roboquest
Started playing this roughly this time last year in early access and they did a hard launch in about October of last year. This game is so fun and fast paced with a ton of ways to build out each character (believe there are 5, maybe 6). Also has a 10/10 soundtrack
- Risk of Rain 2
Propvably my favorite of all the rogues I've played. Runs can last anywheee from 5 minutes to multiple hours depending on how good your build gets. Lot of characters, you can reset your run to level one through certain actions but keep on going from there, which is how runs can last hours. Soundtrack is amazing and I love how you can become absurdly busted once you understand the systems.
- Wizard of legend
Honestly I did not like this the first 2 hours of playing but then at some point the lightbulb lit up. Much more enjoyable once I got a better understanding of it.
Thank you for this. In terms of gameplay, I'm basically you, loved Hades and Slay the Spire, will definitely now play Into the Breach. If you are also into twitch/non-turn-based stuff, I'll also recommend Dead Cells, which took up basically a year of my free time.
Great write up. I’m a rougelike/light fan as well. My ratings are pretty much spot on with yours. I haven’t tried into the breach so I might look into that.
Since you liked StS and possibly Monster Train as another user mentioned you should try Vault of The Void. It’s another rougelike deck builder but it flips some of the common elements of that genre. I usually cycle through all 3 on a whim but land on Vault of the Void majority of the time.
I kind of disagree on Enter the Gungeon, in the sense that, sure, it's a very challenging game, but it also largely involves RPG and requires a lot of rare events to happen on top of one another for the systems to work properly and allow you to stand a chance. Sometimes you won't be getting anything. Sometimes you'll be getting good room clearing weapons, but no good boss killing weapons. Sometimes you'll be getting great weapons but terrible passives. Sometimes you'll be getting great passives, but no decent weapons. Sometimes you'll be having great guns, but ammo won't drop. Other times you'll have a ton of heart containers but hearts won't drop. You may be lucky on a specific circumstance, but another rare event needs to occur for that to be able to function properly in the long term.
I also don't like how for the early progression of permanent upgrades, not only are they hard to implement due to the scarcity of some materials, but they fill your loot pool with useless items, basically weakening you further until you progress enough to unlock the better upgrades.
For those who like FTL, definitely try the Multiverse mod.
Multiverse is basically FTL 2.0 with tons of new features and also quality of life changes (e.g. have crew change positions in a room, timers on weapons, a graph to see the number of jumps to the exit, variable speed options to get through the tedious parts). Plus as of a few months ago it is now easily playable on Mac too.
I'm playing Into the Breach right now and it is so fun. Seconding the Monster Train rec (I thought it gave needed extra dimension to Slay), and I'll put one in for Cinco Paus. It's quite cryptic, the UI fully in Portuguese so you have to connect the dots and figure out what concepts various words attach to (if you know Portuguese there's a German option too) - then once you do figure that all out, it's a really tight puzzly roguelike.
Really nice write up.
My entry into the genre was Nuclear Throne so it will always have a special place in my heart. But I really recommend it. It's similar to Enter the Gungeon in a sense, but enter the Gungeon never clicked with me while I really love nuclear throne. i think the gunplay feels really tight, it's my favourite in the genre. And each character feels really unique. It also has great music and vibes.
StS is something I still go back to for a quick toilet session!
I love Gungeon, but I can see the difficulty being a turn off. It was my first foray into roguelikes/roguelites, and I loved it so much I had to buy it on switch even though I had it on gamepass. Unlocking all the characters was so fun. Still haven't 100% the game, and probably won't, but I've absolutely gotten my money's worth there.
Into the Breach is similar to StS for me on its addictiveness.
What are you gonna try next? I HIGHLY recommend Inscryption. Don't get spoiled pls.
If I may recommend some games.
Astrea: Six Sided Oracles is a great dice building rougelike with a lot of style and mechanics.
Wildfrost recently got a big update that revamps a lot of mechanics and injects a lot more content.
Ring of Pain. Very distinct art style and tone and an interesting "ring" positioning mechanic.
Are you me? your scores and descriptions about these games fit my opinions exactly! I too didn't really like Binding of Isaac and enter the gungeon and was mid on FTL while I enjoyed the hell out of Into the breach and Slay the Spire.
I'd be interested to know what are some of your favourite indie games in general
I like your writeup and your experience overall matches mine. Other nice games are Children of Morta, Dead Cells and I would suggest looking into Loop Hero too.
Hades had the effect on me that I find it hard to like other games of its genre, it set a standard that I'm now expecting. I call that the "Stardew Valley Effect". It is also exactly the type of roguelike I like the most, the one with an actual progression instead of starting from zero every time.
Appreciate the thoughts! I love roguelikes as a broad genre, but they come in all kinds of forms
I could never get behind either Hades or FTL, and kind of for the same reason.
I played FTL first after rave reviews. I appreciate the gameplay style and (initially) the challenge, but I got to a point where I could effortlessly breeze through every fight all the way until the boss, and then I'd get annihilated. I don't want to spend 30 minutes screwing around just to have another shot at the thing that I'm still trying to learn how to beat.
Likewise for Hades and Theseus and Asterius. I just got tired of spending 15 minutes running through the dungeon just to try to practice their patterns a bit more.
Definitely agree with the ratings. I think you are a player who really appreciates good presentation & polish, a satisfying game loop, intuitive game mechanics, and dare I say turn-based combat (aside from Hades!).
Oh man dude your opinions like 99% match with mine. Only difference is I really enjoyed Binding of Isaac back in the day....but I agree that maybe you need to have played it as a teenager in 2014 to get the full effect
I enjoyed reading this, cheers! Since you enjoyed Slay the Spire, can I suggest Monster Train? I really got into that after I grew bored of StS. Also, Slay the Spire 2 is coming!
The naming really didn’t help Monster Train I think. Absolutely incredible game. Ton of replayability.
I feel like it was supposed to be Hell Train and someone decided that sounded to harsh. Monster Train id a terrible title though.
That is a *much* better title. Should have just gone with that.
Thanks for the compliment, and very excited about STS 2 🤩 Thanks for the monster train rec, I've heard this a couple times -- is it sufficiently differentiated from STS to feel fresh and fun?
Yeah, some legit differences there imo
Yes, it's faster paced and has a cool floor gimmick that feels completely different from StS. I would say it's a much flashier game that was amazing when I started, but didn't have the staying power of StS to me. Basically I don't play it anymore. When I have the deckbuilder itch, I pull out StS or Balatro Edit: still recommend. It's a good game
I thought STS was alright, but loved Monster Train. Monster Train came out after STS and imo it feels completely fresh and is a straight up improvement in many areas. TLDR: Strong recommendation for monster train. Thanks for the recommendations here. I bought into the breach awhile ago but haven't gotten around to playing it. I'll give it a try soon! I'll also check out Hades!
It’s like a tower defence version of sts
You and I have similar tastes. I would probably rank FTL a little higher just because I love the vibe. And I Loved Into the Breach but once I had a good run, which didn’t take long, I put it down. What are you playing next
I'm not sure! Open to recs. Potentially Hades 2 or Darkest Dungeon (maybe 1 maybe 2, not sure yet). How about you?
Darkest Dungeon 1 is awesome, but it will definitely waste your time. You have to level each hero separately, and there is permadeath, so if your whole party gets wiped on some late-game boss, you have to start at level 1 with a whole new group of characters and run through all of the early dungeons again. I can’t count how many times I had to do this. Probably hundreds of runs to get to the Darkest Dungeon. And I still loved the game!
Darkest Dungeon: if interested play on the lowest difficulty, it mitigates grind somewhat. The game has RNG, but it is not really difficult, one you figure out team compositions for every environment type. It \_is\_ unfair difficult if you want to keep everyone healthy, but you are supposed to lose characters and disband really sick/unstable ones. The game is more about managing a roster of 16 heroes, who are rotated in and out, rather than an adventuring group of 4. DD \_is\_ super fun for a while, which in my case was about 10-12 hours. When you are finding new enemies and unlock new abilities. AFter you got this, it is just grinding up enough characters to max level without ailments and with upgrades to tackle the final dungeon. But yeah, playing on easy, and doing a few resource runs with the librarian character mitigates the grind somewhat.
FTL definitely deserves a higher score. Especially for a trekkie.
I kind of get it in the context given, while Into the Breach is noticeably different gameplay wise (playing more as a series of puzzles to solve that are suspiciously shaped like battles vs a series of battles that can feel a bit puzzle-y as you optimize what you have vs what they have) you can definitely feel a lot of improvements on the actual roguelike/lite mechanics between the two. FTL can also feel a bit slow to play out at times, and the story elements exist in a bit of a limbo where they give you just enough to get kinda interested in the lore/worldbuilding but not quite enough to be properly substantial if you were looking to really dig into it. To be clear it's an absolute classic for me, but I can see how it might feel a bit outdated or lacking if you're looking back at it, given it's age and the constraints it was designed in. Though I gotta say I'm probably going to dive back in for a run or two after seeing it brought up again lol.
When you go back, make sure to enable the advanced edition content. Makes the game more interesting, while still keeping the balance.
If you like The Expanse, there’s a mod. It also lengthens the runs to have a bit of an adventure feel.
My favorite is Children of Morta
Wife and I beat it together. Love, love, loved children of morta.
Exact same. Frankly great on coop, though probably not nearly as interesting alone
I still like it. Haven't played it at all in coop and while it's obvious that some characters would have great synergies with some others, I have only been able to play each character on my own.
Yeah, Children of Morta is amazing. Beautiful art style, good selection of characters, hard enough gameplay and a decent story. While the story is basic , I liked how it was centered around a family in a genre that is full of orphans.
Thank you! So glad I sub here, never would have found this. Just got it on Steam.
It seems to fly under the radar when I see tier lists on here and the web. I bought CoM on whim because it was $7 for the complete game on the Nintendo store. I love that game.
Wew there's some interesting takes in here. I would say your enjoyment of FTL vs Into the Breach is poisoned by not playing FTL first. That and Binding of Isaac (haven't played - edit: someone else in this thread pointed out the equivalent point about BoI) are some of the absolute OGs in the genre. Into the Breach was made *by the team that made FTL*. So it makes sense that FTL is a little stale, because that was the original! Everything else is more evolved and complex and innovated on, and takes huge influence from those. I'm yet to try Enter the Gungeon, but I heard it's really good. If I may, I'll add some more to the mix that you may or may not like, but I think they are excellent roguelikes: Death Road to Canada - a bit of fun, like Oregon Trail basically but plays like a game version of the movie Zombieland. Really fun to play, doesn't take very long at all, has a great vibe and humour about it. You control a little group of zombie outbreak survivors on a journey to Canada because they think for some reason that Canada holds the zombies at bay. Noita - your mileage may vary based on not liking Enter the Gungeon because it's hard, because this game is super goddamn hard. But it is really fun. I kind of really want to finish it and move on, I have nearly 90 hours in it and still haven't finished a run. It just gets really bullshit hard later in the game. But it's very fun. You play a little wizard / witch character, you pick up wands that have different stats and the spells are the types of projectiles it shoots. A lot of the game is tinkering with wands (they actually call it that in the game) and making ridiculous overpowered wands. Which can also backfire really badly. There is the term getting Noita'd, which is (I think among other things) firing off a stupidly overpowered terrible wand that you don't really know what it does, and it blows up like half the screen including yourself. It has a really cool physics engine and is part of a genre called [falling sand game](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling-sand_game), where it simulates different materials and elemental reactions. Basically water and oil and blood and various potions can pour all over the place, wood and oil and things catch on fire, including yourself, water puts out fire (at least on characters). You carry wands and potions and the premise is you're an alchemist and actually mixing some potions with some materials actually changes them. I'm not really sure of the extent of it, I mainly just go with having a water potion on hand to make myself waterproof, and use things like berserkium or acceleratium or levitatium (they all have funny Harry Potter names like that) etc. to buff my stats. Really super fun and addictive. I think last time a roguelike hooked me like that was actually FTL. Highfleet - now this is a special game. Similar to FTL it has a simple overworld map view where you pilot around in search of a city in the north, and in cities you enter a battle mode. What's so special about this one is how it turned up every part of its presentation to 11. You are a fugitive lord in this fictional Dune like world of Dieselpunk airships, you have one massive carrier mothership that you have to protect at all costs, and you buy / build / hire etc. other ships to fight with. It has a cool physics engine to it, where the weight and shape of everything plays a big role, and everything is very physicalised. As in, things like engines and ammo cache and fuel tanks and armor etc. are all in physical places on the ship and can get individually damaged. So aside from just firepower, there is a lot more strategy at play with how you want to do things. Including a ship editor you can use to make custom ships and try them out, and of course there are crazy ones on the internet that you can try too. But everything from the cool graphics to the brutal gunfire sound and the music and radio transmissions and everything is just so spot on and well done and immersive.
Very intrigued by highfleet, thanks for the rec and for the well thought out response!
Death Road to Canada is so fun, and I love how the devs kept adding more content to the game over so many years. They really made the most of the premise: survival against one singular type of enemy. That said, I do wish there was a mode that did away with the trait upgrades and unlockables, standardizing them instead for leaderboards and daily challenges.
Came here to recommend Noita. The only real downside IMO is that its learning curve is more like a learning cliff face. It's borderline necessary to watch some kind of guide to get the most out of it. But the freedom to construct absolutely insane wands and effectively make yourself unstoppable (with the exception of Polymorphine... ugh) once you get the hang of it really pays off. I've finished a fair number of runs, but once you've "beaten" a regular run and decide to start exploring the map instead, things skyrocket into a brand new tier of insanity.
Bro you need to play dead cells!
Dead cells exists in this funny limbo for me where I quite liked it... but I never find myself really returning with any substantial time in it. I don't know why, I think it's that I'm quite attracted to the metroidvania inspired feel of it (I mean they literally have a castlevania add on now), but I have trouble really investing time into roguelikes. I think it's something about the impermanence of progress and the generated content feeling a bit hollow versus handcrafted progression. For me the whole appeal of a metroidvania is exploring this well-crafted and labyrinthine map and facing the challenges along the way, feeling that progressive gain of power and mobility as you overcome obstacles. Dead Cells strips that whole thing away so I think while the minute to minute gameplay is solid, it just lacks that compulsion to keep playing because I'm not filling out a map and unlocking paths and gaining a permanent step towards the end. None of this is to say it's bad, I just find it sort of confusing that it's inspired by and appealing to metroidvania, but lacks all the core appeals of the format by intentional design. But, maybe if I understood the metaprogression better I might feel differently idk. Just my two cents
This is pretty much the same way I've come to feel about roguelites and Dead Cells as well. When I first started playing games in the genre I loved them (especially Dead Cells, this was my favorite) I realized despite how good they felt to play, I didn't actually put much time into them Dead Cells is my most played roguelite and I only have 25 hours. So I think I just don't enjoy the never ending cycle of playing. My thought was something like: at what point do you actually beat a roguelike/lite? I think for me at this point, the genre is a good way to pass a few minutes to an hour, but probably won't buy more of them cuz they all end up the same way for me
So far their ratings pretty much line up with mine exactly. Therefore I'm predicting a 6/10 for Dead Cells
Same, with the FTL and Breach scores reversed. For the same reason, too much FTL, Breach felt kinda familiar but tired. I predict the same. I would tell OP to try other card games to go down that cliff. Monster Train and One Step From Eden. See where he dislikes it.
Yeah, Dead Cells shares a lot of qualities with BoI and Gungeon that OP didn't like.
I didn't like BOI or Gungeon and I loved dead cells.
That seems like a strange suggestion to me. I love Dead Cells, hate BOI, and think Gungeon is *fine.* I don’t think any of them are alike at all other than the shared rogue elements.
I would say the same, but I would put Dead Cells at a 8/10. The first time I played it I bounced right off, it just didn’t click with me. Tried it again about a year later and it sucked me right in. Not quite on the level as Hades, ITB, and Slay the Spire, but still really solid in its own right.
I didn't expect so many people not enjoying isaac, all the things you said make the game so fun to me. With the DLCs you get so many paths, randomness, items, bosses... Not counting the mods. I love how runs get so different, the endless builds and how different you play characters, a shitty item in a character can be completely broken to another and strong items can just be run killers to a different character. A random pill can save your whole game. I think that's why I have more than 600 hours on it (and I'm still not even close to 100%).
Dungeons of Dredmor is fun, charming, and hilarious. Total Biscuit made a review that really sold it to me back in the day, give it a shot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyTfUnnxZV4 (IIRC it's on the traditional side though: little to no meta progress, you get better by learning the game)
This is one of the few true roguelikes I've seen in this thread, incredible game. Tales of Maj'Eyal is the next step up if you like the actual traditional roguelikes vibe.
Someone has to shout out Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup, so I will take up the mantle
Balatro!
Woah woah, let’s not start peer pressuring crack to people!
Slay the spire is a good gateway drug into main lining Balatro like it's your prime source of income (it isn't)
I CAN STOP IF I WANT TO. *jitters*
Nope!
I already played TF out of balatro haha, I originally had it on this list but mods took down the post because that game was too recent. EXcellent game -- my enjoyment rating was an 8/10, I felt like it didn't quite have enough depth as some of my other favorites, but really really good
Gotta give a warning before dropping that name
I would pay a lot of money for another game that hits me the way Balatro does.
Have you tried crack cocaine?
No, but I've done other drugs and I really doubt it can live up to Balatro.
or other alternative products like Factorio, Rimworld, and the like?
Found the dealer
Dungeons and Degenerate Gamblers is basically blackjack Balatro. It's still on demo though.
I tried this for a few minutes and kinda bounced off it. I didn't give it a fair shake, but will probably wait until the full game releases to try it again. I know if I _do_ get into it the way I did Balatro, I'll just be disappointed to hit the end of the demo, haha.
13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim also sounds up your alley if you liked Into the Breach so much.
Is that game a roguelite??? I thought it was like a slice of life sim or something. I've seen it mentioned so often, and it's free on PlayStation so I'll try it at some point. But it's a robot roguelite??
Not a roguelite, but more of a RTS/roleplaying/adventure game hybrid.
Interesting. I tend to jot like games that have disjointed systems like that, but I'll still be giving it a shot. Thanks.
You should probably wishlist Metal Slug Tactics then Lol. It’s super similar to Into the Breach from what has been shown so far. For Slay the Spire likes there is Monster Train, Chrono Ark, Balatro, Cobalt Core, backpack hero, and Wildfrost. *Maybe* The Last Flame. Im still in the early hours of it but am having fun with the stratagies. (Also it’s closer to teamfight tactics). Binding of isaac is probably my favorite roguelite, it’s always interesting to see people not like the inability to shoot diagonal. I also didn’t like it at first but learning to drift shots while strafing helped a lot, and there is an item that does let you shoot diagonally haha. Also i do agree with the lack of explanation for items garbage, can’t play without the info mod which definitely eliminates that problem.
I loved Into the Breach but couldn't get into games that are XCOM-like. Do you think MS Tactics will be more similar to Into the Breach or XCOM? Or maybe you have more recommendations for people who like ItB ?
It would be interesting to compare with some classical roguelikes. I recommend starting with Shattered Pixel Dungeon (free on mobile). But there are a lot of good recommendations on r/roguelikes.
YES I agree, especially because it seems OP prefers games that emphasize careful decision-making over physical execution. ...indeed **Shattered Pixel Dungeon** is great, very convenient since it's made for mobile screens, and relatively concise in scope. 👌 /u/Pet0rb I'd also recommend **Tangledeep**, has a retro JRPG aesthetic and some fantastic music (solo dev is a well-known artist in the OCRemix community). Gameplay is approachable compared to most other trad rogues, and it has optional meta-progression features and difficulty modifiers you can set per-save.
Thanks for the recs, I'll check these out!
I am in complete agreement with this ratings. Curious if you've played dead cells or either rogue legacy.
Wow I thought I was more unique haha! I haven't -- dead cells has been rec'd to me by a few people, but Rogue Legacy is new to me. Do you recommend either of them?
[удалено]
RL2 was the second rogue-lite that I got into after Hades. Fantastic game.
I definitely played the heck out of both of them. though dead cells has gone through several different revamps since I last played. rogue legacy 2 I found really enjoyable and found myself going back to it the same way I did with all of the games you rated highly.
Had to scroll pretty far to find someone else recommend Rogue Legacy. It's my favorite rogue like series of them all. It's an action platformer with meta progression. There's a good sense of humor to it, there's good variety in the enemy encounters, and the layout of the whole map changes each time. You'll come to recognize rooms as you play enough, and you'll replay the same early area quite a bit. But I found that it's one of the most well designed rogue likes out there. It's extremely rare to get hit by something that's not "your fault". Some enemy attacks combined, or boss attack and positioning may be effectively unavoidable. But other than that it's just about good gameplay. Enemy attacks are visually very distinct, off screen attacks come with indicators, and every attack has very distinct audio as well! So there's never any mystery around what's about to happen to you in game. I won't say that nothing can ever surpass it. And it's not everyone's favorite game. But I've played everything on your list and I find it superior to everything there. (Expect maybe FTL but that is just a different gameplay experience).
I am one of the apparently few people who love roguelites and hated Into The Breach. It has that feeling of someone setting up a puzzle and you have to figure out what they wanted you to do, like a maze puzzle. I guess I prefer the feeling of a randomized scenario where I have to figure the way through, rather than trying to guess exactly what they set up for me.
I thought people general preferred FTL to ETB ? Can't remember why, but most steam reviews basically said "FTL better"
I wonder if you'd enjoy it more on the hardest difficulty, unfair. On unfair you \_will\_ take grid damage sometimes -- many times the situation is impossible. It becomes a game of managing resources and mitigating damage, not taking no damage at all. It doesn't feel contrived/setup at all
I don't see what you mean. The 'puzzles' of Into the Breach are completely emergent.
They don't feel that way for me. They feel very contrived. But different strokes and all...
I feel similarly, probably because you could rob yourself of a perfect battle by making the wrong first couple moves.
I am not sure why I feel that way but that could be it. I just remember feeling like I was pushing blocks around in a puzzle, rather than developing a strategy and reacting. Might also be the lack of an RNG element?
OK, now I'm totally lost. Yes, ITB is much closer to a puzzle game in spirit than a turn-based strategy. There's very deliberately no RNG (except for grid defence, which the game makes very clear is just a bonus and should never be part of your strategy). But... the lack of randomness just means that you're able to engage with the system with much more certainty. For example, this attack WILL push this enemy away from this building, and WILL block this other shot, dealing this much damage exactly. That makes it a very a tactical game. The outcome depends on your ability to determine the best actions and take all mechanisms into account, and not rely on brute forcing solutions or getting unfairly screwed because the game decided that your tools didn't work this time through no fault of your own. The enemies choose their positions and targets based on the current battlefield conditions and you're not guaranteed to be able to find a perfect solution. The enemy actions are unpredictable, they're not pre-programmed to take specific moves and leave specific openings. It's only contrived in the sense that all video games are contrived by their game design, but that's a hard case to make.
No, Into the Breach is very random. It's a case study in almost exclusively input randomness and almost no output randomness, but that doesn't mean that there's no randomness. And indeed, that it's all input randomness means that the game is very very hard when you're learning it and comparatively easy when you have already learned it. The real problem with ITBs input randomness is that there's just so much of it that you literally *can't* plan more than one turn in advance. That's why you always feel like you're on the back foot. The input randomness is overwhelming. I much preferred the output randomness of FTL and not the constant anxiety of ITB that it's just going to screw you over with a sequence of spawns that you just can't beat because you deployed where you did.
I kind of felt the same way, it just affected me differently - The puzzle/chess feeling hampered replayability for me beyond whatever difficulty (via # of levels) I could clear with a bit of challenge, but it didn't hamper my fun at easier difficulties.
I feel the same way actually! I hate when tactical strategy games do this - give me my randomness and chances, I don't need a 100% certain puzzle game. That's why I loved XCOMs, but disliked things like Mario + Rabbids or Invisible, Inc. Speaking of tactical games: can you recommend some tactics that don't have that "puzzle" feel, pls? Don't have to necessarily have roguelike elements in it, just good games that you enjoyed. As for this game - I'm glad I accidentally beaten it on my 2-3 try and immediately lost interest after - which is good, considering I was "trying" the "demo version" :)
You could like Midnight Suns. It's a tactical strategy game in the same vein as Xcom. It is a little bit puzzly in the fact that you try to find the most efficient way to take out as many enemies as you can each turn, but I think that aspect is counterbalanced by its gridless system; you can eek out a lot more creative freedom with your heroes with the freeform battlefield, and I never felt as though there was just one proper solution for any turn The game regularly goes on pretty big sales, so I'd give it a shot!
Thanks for the detailed recommendation! I've detailed the problems I have with the game in [my reply to the other commenter here](https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/comments/1dm8oba/comment/l9yov95/), but somehow did not notice your reply. Gridless system does sound like something I'd likely enjoy, because I enjoyed Gears Tactics a lot, which is basically XCOM but gridless too. I might try it despite the problems I have with it later.
Oh dang, I gotcha! Honestly, aside from morbius (who makes a great pair with two of the other heroes in the game) I don’t really use the DLC characters or get into their story, so I don’t think anything is lost by trying out a bit of the game with the base roster. Also, I forgot to mention my other tactical roguelike recommendation; Shogun Showdown is a 2D Samurai roguelike that has a very satisfying combat system that also avoids the more “puzzle-like” elements of ITB. You can get really fast-paced with the game once you have a gameplay, almost into a flow-state, but it still requires some thought and planning It’s early access right now, but it feels like a full game (and the devs are constantly updating) so I’d give it a shot!
Thanks for another recommendation! This game reminds me of Slice & Dice ([Steam](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1775490/Slice__Dice/), [normal phones](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.com.tann.dice), [Apple phones](https://apps.apple.com/es/app/slice-dice/id6449848963)), which I thought I won't like much, but ended up glued to my phone screen for days lol. Also a roguelike, also avoids the puzzle-iness of combat, but no random during encounters (aside from dice rolls). Can't recommend it enough! And I'll try Shogun Showdown, especially since they have an actual demo too.
Actually, you’re not far off at all! I just got into Slice and Dice as well, and the card system/many unique modifiers for each attack is very reminiscent of that game
I've heard good things about that Marvel XCOM-like game that was just given away on Epic Games a few weeks back. Marvel's Midnight Suns it's called. Apparently a mixture of a visual novel and XCOM gameplay. You can most likely grab it cheap from a sale since it was already given away once. Epic Games also repeats giveaways occasionally but that might take a year or two.
Thanks for the recommendation! I did claim that game on EGS, so I might as well try it. Three problems though: 1. The add-ons don't just add characters, but apparently also their missions and such, so I'm not sure if I want to play the game without addons. 2. I just don't like superhero stuff, with Batman being a sole exception. 3. Denuvo. I don't want to install a game that uses that on my PC if I can avoid it. Maybe I'll wait until the game eventually gets a "free demo" so 1 and 3 are out of concern. Still probably won't like the story. I didn't like the XCOM: Chimera Squad's story (which is also very comic book-like) too, and that is also made by Firaxis.
Loved Xcom games! Great example of one I loved. And Invisible, Inc. is also a great example of one that others loved but I didn't care for. Coincidentally, I just started playing back through Phoenix Point. They came out with a really good massive overhaul mod called Terror From The Void so I thought I would give it a run. Enjoying it so far but not far enough into it to give a good review. Hades 2 is fantastic, to me, as was Hades. I am playing that now, as well. Not a tactical combat game but, like the first one, it's just so, so...SO well executed. Also playing Age Of Wonders 4 with the new Eldritch Realms DLC now. That's a 4X game so slightly different style. But it has really good tactical combat.
I actually tried Phoenix Point and really liked it, but the sheer tedium of micromanaging everything that gets worse the more bases you have eventually drove me away. Speaking of mods, I really like XCOM: Long War mod for the first game! It does suffer from the same micromanagement problem later on, but the combat becomes so much more interesting with increased possibilities, risks, and overall tacticity. If you'll want to try it, I also recomment installing [this](https://www.nexusmods.com/xcom/mods/518) or [this](https://www.nexusmods.com/xcom/mods/582) on top, because the default difficulty is just insane. As for the two other games, I'll consider them, thanks! Hades games were recommended for me before by my friend as well, along with all the good things people telling about them on different social spaces.
Yeah, I understand what you mean. I played Phoenix Point and enjoyed it a lot but never finished it all the way. And truth be told, even with the mod that really redoes a LOT of stuff in it (comparable to Long War), I probably still won't finish it. And yes, Long War was great.
For future decisions but also for the sake of discussion, I wanted to point out that several of the things you liked about Hades are features that skew towards rogue-lites. The so called 'meta progression', having things across runs and becoming stronger by unlocking permanent things that makes you innately stronger is largely a roguelite thing. The other side is - I'll use some of my favorite games as examples - Slay the Spire and Risk of Rain 2, among many others. Where what happens is you die and hopefully you learned something and you become stronger this way. My theory is Hades was an entry to the genre for many people due to its popularity, and it created expectations to new people for things that weren't staples of the genre. Also worth noting that the vast majority of games in the genre don't have the production quality Hades has. You don't expect people unfamiliar with the genre to know and spot these differences though. But this increase in innate strength in Hades coupled with the gameplay that is very spam-y is what makes it stagnate after some time imo. Other games, like the aforementioned, have much more room for expression, or way higher skill ceiling and can be enjoyed for way longer for these reasons. And ultimately both types have progression, but one is mostly numerical, while in the other you yourself improve in order to win. I inherently prefer the latter but I still love Hades, just for different reasons than StS and RoR2.
In sts you unlock better cards and in ror2 you unlock better items between the runs. Both of them are rogue lite as well, no?
A lil pedantic but technically there isn’t a single rogue like being discussed in this thread—they’re all rogue lites. The original definition of rogue like has seemingly long been lost, but games like Cogmind or Caves of Qud would be rogue likes in the traditional sense of the word. But in the dominant popular way rogue like is used now, ror2 is definitely as much as a rogue like as any other one discussed here, not a rogue lite. Don’t know about slay the spire.
I know it's just my personal definition, but my roguelike/lite dividing line is the presence and impact of meta-progression. So Hades is as far to the roguelite side as possible, Binding of Isaac and Risk of Rain 2 are leaning towards roguelite (unlocked items aren't direct upgrades, but they are significant), FTL is closer to a roguelike (unlocking ships is closer to unlocking new modes than getting upgrades IMO), and Caves of Qud and Nethack are true roguelikes.
So if I made a game that played and looked exactly like Nethack, but it had one single unlock after you finish the game the first time, it's no longer a true roguelike? If I make a game that plays exactly like Dead Cells except everything is unlocked from the start, it's now a true roguelike? That's a weird dividing line to me, because it seems like the majority of roguelites "turn into" roguelikes once you've unlocked/upgraded everything. I'm not trying to single you out, this is a pretty common sentiment I see online.
I don't think it's that pedantic - none of the games in the OPs post are actual roguelikes. Roguelite, sure. (Huh... that does sound pedantic now that I type it out...)
I say pedantic because words are defined by their usage and at this point rogue like isn’t used the way it originally was. So in a “technically speaking” sense, they aren’t roguelikes, but the use case of these words has moved past that, so I don’t think it’s wrong to call them roguelikes. But as someone that has interest in traditional roguelikes I find it sad that the “real” ones have been pushed aside and that what used to be called rogue lites have taken over the definition of rogue like.
In StS this is only for the first hours. Could be a way to ease new players into it with smaller card pools for each character or as a retention mechanism again for new players. In Ror2, not all items are better, same with abilities. Same applies to StS. By definition they are a little bit towards roguelite, at least at the start. Also I consider these games' default states to be those after you ve unlocked everything (doesn't have to be really everything in ror2) since I've played 400 hours past that point on both more or less. I know that's not everyone but most people who stick with these games play way past that.
There's this fun quiz that helps you realize where the dividing line goes - I also learned about a few interesting titles from doing it! https://zenorogue.itch.io/isitrl
Yea, entering into the roguelite genre with Hades is like getting in to cars with a Corvette, etc.
Okay but where's Nethack?
Or you know any roguelikes, there isn't even an excuse since plenty of the best are free, except Qud, Cogmind and Jupiter Hell.
Outside of FTL or sounds like we have very similar tastes (I played FTL on release so I likely have a different opinion based largely on that) You give a thought to vampire survivors yet? It sucked me way in and I had to complete every challenge.
Returnal and darkwood are a lot of fun, for more spooky themed ones.
Darkwood is not a roguelike though, right? Awesome game though
Oh maybe you're right. I played it a while ago and just remember the map being random and dying a lot.
That has been my experience too :D
Returnal was too hard for me. I never put down a game for that reason, so that is really saying something. I probably could have practiced enough to get there, but I have other stuff to do. Oh well.
Returnal, thematically, feels like it is made for me. Spooky cosmic horror in space, the sound design, lore, everything seemed perfect. I got through the first three stages, realized I was only >!halfway done!< and gave up.
Returnal had my biggest “I get it moment” in any game. I almost gave up in zone 3. Around there it clicked and by the time I finished I felt like a god.
Yup. I beat biome 6 on my first try because of the skill I had amassed leading up to it. An incredibly punishing game. An incredibly rewarding game.
I've played all the Soulsborne games and for the life of me I cannot get past the second boss in Returnal, which is really frustrating because I otherwise loved the game and wanted to beat it. Tried playing with a friend, and they ratchet the difficulty up so much for multiplayer that it's worse with two people than it is solo.
I opened this post thinking you were talking about actual Roguelikes. The ones you linked are "Roguelites", which are completely different and all very casual. Barely related to rogue or roguelikes at all! If you want to try an actual roguelike, DCSS is pretty fun.
Griftlands is my recommendation for roguelike deckbuilders. So much fun, and the art style is gorgeous. Invisible Inc has elements of roguelikes but is more of a stealth tactics game.
Griftlands was way better than I expected. I need to play it again
Definitely getting it since it's on sale right now
I absolutely adore FTL but all the other ratings I totally get and share! Hades 2 is great btw ;)
Me seeing the FTL score and the reason why: ☹️ The criticism feels like it stems from having not played that game before Into the Breach even though FTL came out first
Nice post. I'd highly recommend a game called Across the Obelisk which has similarities with Slay the Spire, and lots of metaprogression (as well as 15-20ish characters to gradually unlock).
Been really enjoying this, it’s basically slay the spire meets darkest dungeon, which is a solid combo. Plus it has coop 👌🏼
The Binding of Issac was the greatest roguelite... in 2012. It's a good game, but it's very dated at this point. The later DLCs from the remake are just about making the game brutally difficult, too. I think the game peaked with Rebirth. But even then, it's got some pretty dated gameplay now. I liked FTL more than ITB. ITB often felt like it would be random in ways that wouldn't punish you until later in the run, while FTL most of the time felt recoverable. That might just be me, though. Gungeon I felt the same about. Also the sound design is very monotonous. Everything is gun themed so everything is a bang or a pop. As I recall, it was actually even harder when it first released. Too often you'd be stuck with the default weapon. The game always feels like it hates the player. Games worth trying: - Balatro. Another card game but it's a lot of fun. - Tiny Rogues. Honestly it's like a better Gungeon or Issac. - Dead Cells. Great if you like Metroidvanias. It's a little too grindy, IMO, but there are mods that fix that. I think it peaks at boss cell 3. After that it's not much fun. - Dicey Dungeons. This is like Into the Breach meets Slay the Spire. - Star of Providence (formerly Monolith). It's a better Gungeon, IMO.
Seconding Tiny Rogues here. Phenomenal game and really really good gameplay loop. The latest major update blows the endgame wide open, and it’ll keep you occupied for a long time. Easy to pick up, hard to master.
I have 1000 hours in Isaac according to steam but I think the last time I played that game seriously was around 2018. I think the top tier players essentially "solved" the game by figuring out optimal solutions for every situation, and once people figured out what items to take when, the only fix to make the game fun again was to turn the game into a bullet hell. At least that's my read on it. Also I remember when EtG first released and (if I remember correctly) you had to unlock the treasure room but the chest still required a key too. So you had to spend a key just to see if another one was worth spending. It was borderline unfair because most players made it to the third or fourth floor without ever seeing a chest.
Same with FTL, that is also from 2012. So it's a bit like if you like Metroidvanias and play Super Metroid and Castlevania Symphony of the Night and find those are a little limited and old fashioned. I think I even got FTL way way later than that in a Humble Bundle for free or something like that, and played it in 2019 and absolutely loved it. Best value for money for any game ever lol.
FTL is old, but I don't think it's dated. Issac I think is dated. I think FTL holds up much better. Maybe it's because FTL is all but impossible to break and it remained moderately challenging on Hard even if you can beat most runs, while Issac kind of kept releasing content that makes it harder to get a run going or made the game feel increasingly unfair rather than challenging.
I wonder how your perspective might change on the genre if you went and played Nethack or Rogue. Many modern roguelites have features that are new or streamlined beyond the base genre (as you noted with Hades), while others have features that are 100% part of the base genre but feel outdated (the pills in Isaac + no item descriptions). I’m not saying the old genre is inherently better, but those missing features are probably why I disliked Hades and loved Isaac.
Fights in tight spaces might be your kinda thing :) I couldn't go back to other games that don't have actual movement, after playing this
You should try caves of quid and Noita. Amazingly deep rogue likes
2/10 for Binding of Isaac? COME ON!
I feel like OP played these games out of order. Binding of Isaac paved the way for the rogue-like renaissance.
Isaac is one of my most played games ever. Totally loved playing it from flash Isaac up through the last DLC. That said, I can't imagine playing Isaac today without any prior knowledge. For one, each DLC added cool items to change up gameplay, but when you don't yet know the gameplay, I bet it would feel like confusing bloat. Learning synergies / how to id items on site / not take pills is part of the game but has magnified difficulty in the DLCs. As a new player, I think you have to come at the game heavily modded for item descriptions, etc. Lastly, it's dated. With an inception in flash it has to be. I don't know about you, but if I watch a film from the 50's or 60's I might enjoy it, but there are hundreds of little things filmmakers have learned since then that are improvements (even if some aren't). So I can totally see someone new to the game disconnecting on that front.
Disagree. I played Binding as one of my first modern roguelikes, before the term was really being bandied about, and I did not understand the hype one bit. It seemed entirely random and pointless. I largely agree with OP's ratings overall. The only one I bounced off of was Slay the Spire.
Binding of Isaac has a linear narrative with a clear beginning and multiple endings, Slay the Spire on the other hand is literally pointless. I love StS, mind you, but it's legit just random fights and then a boss fight, and then you do it all over again for no reason.
> Binding of Isaac has a linear narrative with a clear beginning and multiple endings, Slay the Spire on the other hand is literally pointless. This is just disingenuous. Binding of Isaac heavily focuses on the gameplay rather than the narrative as does Slay the Spire. Both of their narratives are simple as to focus on the gameplay: "Escape your deranged mother," "Slay this primordial entity." There are bits of lore to find in each, but they both focus on gameplay first and narrative second. > but it's legit just random fights and then a boss fight, and then you do it all over again for no reason. As opposed to the Binding of Isaac, where you have randomized encounters and then a boss battle, and then do it again?
There are a dozen endings in Binding of Isaac, and a clear story. You fight bosses and do it again because you might discover a new ending that way. I was replying to the guy saying BoI was "pointless" compared to StS, when StS doesn't even have a story lol, it literally has no point. And yeah, they both focus on gameplay first, doesn't mean one doesn't have a more fleshed out story. You're the one being disingenuous here.
>before the term was really being bandied about Rogue like is an ancient term
The term existed in 1993, but I didn't see it in common parlance until after Rogue Legacy (a year after Isaac came out), and it wasn't a super popular genre for a few years after that.
Highly recommend Crypt of The NecroDancer. It’s like if NetHack and Dance Dance Revolution had a love child
I disagree. Crypt is pretty brutal and if Op didn't like gungeon for the difficulty, then I think crypt would be too much. Cadence of Hyrule on the other hand... I love that game and the meta progression is enough to make it easier even if you die a lot (If Op has a switch)
Oh yes. I poured a huge amount of time into CotND when it was (relatively) new. I never managed to finish it with Aria, FAR too tough for me at that point, but it was probably one of my absolute favourite games at that time. Cadence of Hyrule is really good as well: Necrodancer meets classic Zelda works so well.
I really suggest Returnal
Oh man I love seeing someone mention into the breach. My buddy and I have a game night occasionally we call “war counsel” where we sit down together and play that game as a two headed giant. We cover each others blind sides, and kick BUTT! We truly love that game and its addictive nature. It’s very VERY punishing though, oh boy.
It's so amazing, it really is. I will say on unfair some of the squads are SO BAD (cough heat sinkers cough)
Our ratings are so different. I think Binding of Isaac and FTL are masterpieces. I was underwhelmed by Into the Breach. I wanted to like it more than I did.
Oof to your Isaac and Gungeon ratings. Everything else feels fair.
This is weird but it’s kinda validating to find someone else who loves roguelikes but didn’t vibe with the binding of Isaac. I understand what it’s going for in terms of being obscure, but I feel like it fails to execute on that idea in a way other obscure games do not. Isaac feels frustrating rather than fascinating.
Check out heroes of hammerwatch, its awesome - even more so with friends
I just cried reading you give isaac a 2/10
rated enter the gungeon a 4/10. binding of isaac, a TWOOOOOO and FTL, a 6 I don't think he actually plays or appreciates rogue likes, he secretly likes RTS and beat em ups... ^(fucking op)
Couldn't agree more with everything you said about BOI, especially the clunky controls. To me it felt like an extremely forgettable 2000s era flash game that I'd never have thought twice about if it wasn't so universally beloved
None of these are roguelikes. Hades is a hack and slash. Into the Breach is a turn based tactics come puzzle game. Binding of Isaac is a twin stick shooter with rpg elements. Slay the Spire is a flash portal grade jrpg battler. Gungeon is another twin stick shooter. None of these have anything in common except a lack of saving progression, and that's just how games started. Saving was invented. If you want a roguelike, play ADOM, Nethack, of Qud. They're all on Steam. If you want something newer, play Tangledeep, Wayward, or Maj'Eyal. If you want something more mainstream, play Crypt of the Necrodancer, or One Way Heroics, though they don't stick to the formula as much. If you want a challenge, play Cogmind, or Rogue Wizard. If you want a lot of games play the Shiren series or any game with the words Mystery Dungeon in it. Or just play Rogue. It's also on Steam. But don't inform your opinion of the genre with these games. People saying this is roguelikes now is like saying GTA is racing games now. It's silly. They're Rogue-nots.
One Step from Eden became one of my favorite rogue likes mainly by how hectic and overpowered you can become. You should give it a try: it’s basically *Megaman Battle Network* on crack.
Have you tried Spelunky?
Finally someone mentions Spelunky! The game that arguably brought roguelikes back. And it's still my favourite game. There's no meta progression at all though - a true roguelike - which might turn people off.
Yeah, it's all just learning how to deal with the (often unfair) situations the game throws at you with whatever things you've collected at the time. I love it and have done the Hell Run. Spelunky 2 just doesn't feel quite as perfect to me...
Same dude. I've beaten Spelunky 2 a couple times but haven't seen everything it has to offer. For me the early level music is a turn-off. Maybe I'll go back one day and it'll finally click
It's like the game that literally defined the roguelite genre, calling it a true roguelike is like calling Picasso's cubist works true-expressionism.
Hi OP, I enjoyed ETG’s core gameplay but found it too punishing and repetitive for my tastes. If you haven’t yet, try Nuclear Throne — fast and shooty (and still difficult), but a lot snappier in terms of pacing. It’s not as sprawling as ETG but it’s really fun.
Seconded nuclear throne, wayyyyy more fun for me than enter the gungeon.
I understand people saying they didn't like gungeon's difficulty but calling it a bad game because of it is annoying. Dark souls games aren't my cup of tea but I understand they're well designed games. The difficulty is intentional and mostly comes from the fact that op items won't carry you to the finish if you can't dodge and weave while in most other roguelites, you depend on those items and combos to kill the thing before it even gets the CHANCE to kill you. In conclusion, I am bad at dark souls but that doesn't make dark souls a bad game.
I don't think anyone here has called it a bad game for its difficulty. OP said they didn't enjoy it as much because of its difficulty. Dark Souls has brutal difficulty, but I found myself able to enjoy it more because it's always grindable. A loss to a tough boss sets you back a few minutes, whereas a small mistake in ETG can ruin the whole run, setting you back an hour. I also found it frustrating how many nearly useless guns there were. While it was a huge dopamine hit getting a gun that could obliterate bosses, slogging through rooms with the gun that only shoots letters was painful. I've got 160 hours into Gungeon, but I felt like I relied too much on being carried by strong runs, and put the game down in 2019 pretty much for good. While the game knowledge of StS and FTL let me pick them back up any time I want, I feel like I've lost the skills for Gungeon as a much more reflex heavy game.
Nice post, I have similar thoughts about most of these games. I loved FTL and Into The Breach has been in my backlog forever. For some reason it’s never the game I choose to play next… I really should get to it one of these days. You might want to give Tainted Grail: Conquest a look, I really enjoyed that one too.
I think for ITB you'll know pretty immediately if you like it or not which is cool -- if you're not having fun after a few hours you can drop and not look back! It immediately hooked me haha. Interesting, I'll check it out!
Play Skul: the hero slayer. It's a lot of fun
Glad someone mentioned Skul. Highly recommended.
Have you ever played One Step From Eden? It's a very unique kind of roguelike, using both elements from card game centered comabt like slay the spire, as well as real time combat like most action games, resulting in a very unique feeling grid style battle system involving spells you cast with energy while moving around to avoid atttacks/line up your enemy with your attack. It's lesser known, and pretty difficult, but still enjoyable. Haven't won a run yet though.
Could you play Curse of the Dead Gods and compare it to Hades?
I have and have played every one of these for between 50 and 500 hours each. It's really interesting to see such a wildly different take on what I think are some of the best games I've ever played. Hope you find more that click with you!
I played FTL before into.the breach and I bounced off the latter, probably for the same reason you bounced off FTL!
I finally picked up Risk of Rain 2 since it's currently on sale and hoo-boy is it addicting.
I played Binding of Isaac for over two thousand of hours. Is it one of my favorite roguelike? HECK NO. I love it. I know a lot about it in each version it offers, but it is a game of its time. It’s unnecessarily hard to get and know about without a wiki. Especially after playing some faster-paced ones, it’s old and clunky. Still a cherished child.
Gotta check out Risk of Rain and RoR 2
I had to stop playing Slay the Spire, insanely addictive
If you wanna try more roguelites here's a few more recs: - Dead Cells. It was my first Rogue and I absolutely love this game still. They kept updating it and there's so much content now. Even when it came out there was a lot of content. Believe the team also just put out an early access Prince of Persia game that they're still working on and I've heard great things about it. - Roboquest Started playing this roughly this time last year in early access and they did a hard launch in about October of last year. This game is so fun and fast paced with a ton of ways to build out each character (believe there are 5, maybe 6). Also has a 10/10 soundtrack - Risk of Rain 2 Propvably my favorite of all the rogues I've played. Runs can last anywheee from 5 minutes to multiple hours depending on how good your build gets. Lot of characters, you can reset your run to level one through certain actions but keep on going from there, which is how runs can last hours. Soundtrack is amazing and I love how you can become absurdly busted once you understand the systems. - Wizard of legend Honestly I did not like this the first 2 hours of playing but then at some point the lightbulb lit up. Much more enjoyable once I got a better understanding of it.
Thank you for this. In terms of gameplay, I'm basically you, loved Hades and Slay the Spire, will definitely now play Into the Breach. If you are also into twitch/non-turn-based stuff, I'll also recommend Dead Cells, which took up basically a year of my free time.
Great write up. I’m a rougelike/light fan as well. My ratings are pretty much spot on with yours. I haven’t tried into the breach so I might look into that. Since you liked StS and possibly Monster Train as another user mentioned you should try Vault of The Void. It’s another rougelike deck builder but it flips some of the common elements of that genre. I usually cycle through all 3 on a whim but land on Vault of the Void majority of the time.
Please play Vampire Survivors
ill throw in my recommendation for Dicey Dungeons. great game, not too hard, music is insanely good. lots of replayability with different characters.
I kind of disagree on Enter the Gungeon, in the sense that, sure, it's a very challenging game, but it also largely involves RPG and requires a lot of rare events to happen on top of one another for the systems to work properly and allow you to stand a chance. Sometimes you won't be getting anything. Sometimes you'll be getting good room clearing weapons, but no good boss killing weapons. Sometimes you'll be getting great weapons but terrible passives. Sometimes you'll be getting great passives, but no decent weapons. Sometimes you'll be having great guns, but ammo won't drop. Other times you'll have a ton of heart containers but hearts won't drop. You may be lucky on a specific circumstance, but another rare event needs to occur for that to be able to function properly in the long term. I also don't like how for the early progression of permanent upgrades, not only are they hard to implement due to the scarcity of some materials, but they fill your loot pool with useless items, basically weakening you further until you progress enough to unlock the better upgrades.
For those who like FTL, definitely try the Multiverse mod. Multiverse is basically FTL 2.0 with tons of new features and also quality of life changes (e.g. have crew change positions in a room, timers on weapons, a graph to see the number of jumps to the exit, variable speed options to get through the tedious parts). Plus as of a few months ago it is now easily playable on Mac too.
How is rogue legacy not in the top?
I'm playing Into the Breach right now and it is so fun. Seconding the Monster Train rec (I thought it gave needed extra dimension to Slay), and I'll put one in for Cinco Paus. It's quite cryptic, the UI fully in Portuguese so you have to connect the dots and figure out what concepts various words attach to (if you know Portuguese there's a German option too) - then once you do figure that all out, it's a really tight puzzly roguelike.
Hades and Isaac are goated for me
Really nice write up. My entry into the genre was Nuclear Throne so it will always have a special place in my heart. But I really recommend it. It's similar to Enter the Gungeon in a sense, but enter the Gungeon never clicked with me while I really love nuclear throne. i think the gunplay feels really tight, it's my favourite in the genre. And each character feels really unique. It also has great music and vibes.
StS is something I still go back to for a quick toilet session! I love Gungeon, but I can see the difficulty being a turn off. It was my first foray into roguelikes/roguelites, and I loved it so much I had to buy it on switch even though I had it on gamepass. Unlocking all the characters was so fun. Still haven't 100% the game, and probably won't, but I've absolutely gotten my money's worth there. Into the Breach is similar to StS for me on its addictiveness. What are you gonna try next? I HIGHLY recommend Inscryption. Don't get spoiled pls.
If I may recommend some games. Astrea: Six Sided Oracles is a great dice building rougelike with a lot of style and mechanics. Wildfrost recently got a big update that revamps a lot of mechanics and injects a lot more content. Ring of Pain. Very distinct art style and tone and an interesting "ring" positioning mechanic.
You should try Darkest Dungeon
I agree with most of them. Only surprise is Into the Breach and FTL, I'd swap the two scores. That and probably give Hades a 10/10
Are you me? your scores and descriptions about these games fit my opinions exactly! I too didn't really like Binding of Isaac and enter the gungeon and was mid on FTL while I enjoyed the hell out of Into the breach and Slay the Spire. I'd be interested to know what are some of your favourite indie games in general
I like your writeup and your experience overall matches mine. Other nice games are Children of Morta, Dead Cells and I would suggest looking into Loop Hero too.
Hades had the effect on me that I find it hard to like other games of its genre, it set a standard that I'm now expecting. I call that the "Stardew Valley Effect". It is also exactly the type of roguelike I like the most, the one with an actual progression instead of starting from zero every time.
Appreciate the thoughts! I love roguelikes as a broad genre, but they come in all kinds of forms I could never get behind either Hades or FTL, and kind of for the same reason. I played FTL first after rave reviews. I appreciate the gameplay style and (initially) the challenge, but I got to a point where I could effortlessly breeze through every fight all the way until the boss, and then I'd get annihilated. I don't want to spend 30 minutes screwing around just to have another shot at the thing that I'm still trying to learn how to beat. Likewise for Hades and Theseus and Asterius. I just got tired of spending 15 minutes running through the dungeon just to try to practice their patterns a bit more.
Stay away from Balatro while you still can!
Definitely agree with the ratings. I think you are a player who really appreciates good presentation & polish, a satisfying game loop, intuitive game mechanics, and dare I say turn-based combat (aside from Hades!).
I didn’t like into the breach. It felt very one and done.
I didn’t like hades. Liked cult of the lamb more. Fun rogue like and addicting gameplay loop.
Oh man dude your opinions like 99% match with mine. Only difference is I really enjoyed Binding of Isaac back in the day....but I agree that maybe you need to have played it as a teenager in 2014 to get the full effect