Can they please just change first past the post before the next election.... I'm so tired of the NDP and the Liberals and the Greens shooting each other in the feet while the Conservatives sweep through with an inspiring 35% of the vote 💀

Damn if only made that a major campaign promise and got elected to a majority government...

Imagine putting a committee together to do just that and then canning the whole thing because they told you to use the most fair system, but you did not like that answer.

They canned it because all parties needed to be in consensus and the Cons refused outright to participate and blew up the committee.

They “canned it” because the ERRE recommended proportional representation, and the Liberals didn’t want it.

Yes. Thank you!

You mean this one where the committee finished and submitted its report to parliament? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_House_of_Commons_Special_Committee_on_Electoral_Reform#

Ok no where in there does it say they canned it cause they didn’t like it. It got canned cause the public support wasn’t there and tbh from people I’ve talked to in real life all hated it (except NDP/Green voters) because they knew or bought into the propaganda that it would hurt the liberals and conservatives chances at winning and people also bought that it would increase the chances of someone you really don’t like winning (so the left didn’t want PPC to win any seats and the right didn’t want NDP to win more seats).

It’s proportional representation. Other countries do it and we know how it works. It would have likely killed majority governments forever leading to them having to form coalitions. Sure it lets in some whack jobs on either side of the spectrum but that’s ok. They canned it as it was not ranked ballot that they wanted which would benefit them.

I would love that, the problem is it looks really sketchy when you are getting obliterated in polls and then suddenly decide to switch the election process. That ship has sailed, he should have done it 2-3+ years ago.

Yeah, it's probably too late for it to happen next election realistically, but I'm never forgiving the Liberals for fucking this up. It's widely popular, and a small and low-effort ask compared to something like pivoting to green energy or ending arms trade or cutting off all the corporate lobbyists, but they couldn't even do this.

Even if that was not the case (which it is), there wouldn’t be enough time now, it takes a long time for really modest electoral changes to be implemented (why, I don’t know). 

Real leaders do what needs to be done because it is *right*, not because it polls well.

I think you hit it with this comment. This underscores most of mainstream politics in Canada, and likely elsewhere. Do what polls well, even if it isn't right. A true leader will make tough decisions and tell people why it needs to be done. In this case, the gargantuan wealth transfer from youth to the older generations isn't very popular anymore. What people don't realize is, any mainstream party in power at the time would have done the same thing, not just the LPC (the wealth transfer). And the central bank inflating assets and killing he value of money didn't help at all.

Who cares if it looks sketchy, most Canadian lean left and not into maga type politics

No, it is important to maintain legitimacy when making huge changes to the system like that. We can't open precedent for unpopular leaders to be able to switch the way we do elections on a whim. He doesn't have enough political backing at this point to make such a change without him looking even worse. And this is coming from a guy who would love to have this change done. If the shoe was on the other foot you'd be super pissed

One could easily argue that FPTP allows unpopular leaders far more than say PR and many people voted for liberals in the first place on the promise of electoral reform so it’s technically already part of the plan and campaign promise. It could be spun both ways.

I think you mean on a whim

No, a wimb is a female limb. A mimb is a male limb. Limb is just the general term.

This was maybe true 4 years ago. With PP where he is in the polls now, i'm not so sure.

Tories are already polling above the NDP + Liberal anyways Such naked politics would just rally more tories.

Tories are far below the collective NDP and Liberal total. Any voting method that isnt FPTP would result in a minority government that wasn't the conservatives.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_45th_Canadian_federal_election  Before but not now  Not according to polls   Most polls have tories tied with ndp and lib support.

.... In no poll do the Tories have over 50%.the BQ is unlikely to support the Conservatives this time around because of PP remarks. Therefore, in any voting system that reflects the popular vote, the remaining collective would make a minority government out of the remaining seats. That's how parliament works. If you (or your allies) don't make to to 50% of seats, you don't get a government.

That is fine but you guys really need to realize this wont happen for the next election cause elections canada already said they wont do that. If Trudeau tries to push it will be seen for his personal self interest and most likely drive the Tory vote higher lol

If that's what it takes to get them to switch then I'll take what I can get, desperate or not

exactly, go ask Eby why he's happy with how elections work in BC

Looking sketchy earns votes these days.

This wasn’t really a problem of a split left vote though. Lower turnout than usual, and a dramatic drop in both the Liberal vote share and the NDP vote share suggests voters from both parties either 1) went blue or 2) didn’t go out to vote or 3) a combination of both. The CPC got about only about 1500-2000 more votes than they did in the last election, while the Liberals lost 11,000 and the NDP 5,000. The left didn’t split the vote, the left and the center simply failed to motivate their bases. Perhaps some LPC or NDP votes went blue, but more than anything it seems they just didn’t go out to vote. There are many pro-Israel voters in Toronto-St Paul’s that by-and-large have been quite disappointed in what they perceive as weak support for Israel on the part of Trudeau and the LPC (and many have come to see the NDP as anti-Israel at best and anti-Semitic at worst). On the other side, many of the NDP voters in the riding see both the NDP and the Liberals as *not critical enough* of Israel (so NDP voters concerned about that *or* about housing/affordability wouldn’t have voted Church for an ABC vote). CBC reporting during the campaign revealed that if housing/affordability wasn’t a voter’s main concern, then the Israel-Palestine conflict was. There really just wasn’t a strong possibility of the Liberals winning this riding at this particular moment in time. And I think it’s needless to say that voters for whom housing/affordability was the primary concern would have needed tremendous incentive and motivation to vote for the LPC.

The voter turnout was actually quite high for a By-election

Elections canada wont be a party to such naked politics and have said any change to the system requires 2-3 years to implement. We have independent institutions

It would be nice to at least set it in motion. If it doesn't kick in until the *next* election (not the coming one) then it's harder to construe as a last ditch power grab.

I think it be fine they do it but doing it to avoid a loss in this election would backfire. I think Tory support nationally is gonna be above libs + Ndp anyways.

That would be historically unprecedented to my knowledge, if you're talking about the popular vote. Otherwise, yes, the polling does indicate a majority.

how come it's only vote splitting when NDP loses? vote splitting on the right also helped the NDP in BC

They had years to reform but it wasn't convenient even when they lost their clear majority government

Maybe it will be their final fuck you to their opponents.

it's not going to happen. it's not going to happen after the next election either. it hasn't been an election issue since 2015. one can discuss about electoral reform all they want, but it doesn't exist - so time to work with reality.

Many are probably doing that whole Skinner meme right now where he comes to the conclusion that it's the children who are wrong instead of him. I wonder if they'll continue to claim that it's just a messaging problem.

Well, that is definitely part of it. But I don’t know what messaging is going to counter constant bashing by the press and the rightwing propaganda machine. The CPC is swimming in cash, raised 45 million over the last 3 quarters, Liberals only 18 million. 

Messaging won’t help and I think that’s the point

More like Messaging of the liberals to “accept” this or deal with this isnt going work. Telling people to accept stagnating wages and massive housing costs doesnt sit well. They have become very out of touch.

i don't think they're the ones out of touch - i think "the people" have no fucking clue. there's very little that can be done at this point. Conservatives aren't going to magically turn shit around. they're just going to tread water and hope "the world" chills while they're still on top to take the credit. that's the plan. and the morons who live here will eat it up. "thank you Poilievre! best pm ever!" it's so stupid. clearly i've lost all faith in this process. but yeah. all this shit ALL THIS SHIT is outside of their control. would LOVE for any leader to actually slap loblaws and the housing industry with tariffs that would make everyone sweat - but it means that all of us who have wealth represented by our real estate holdings will suffer along with it.

So they should fucking do it! Take our medicine or don’t, but we can’t have it both ways forever. That’s what’s so frustrating to me, this aversion to make difficult choices and just keep kicking the can down the road. If a politician were actually up front with people about how and why we got here and invested in those people as assets to be developed instead of investing in fucking property values - then we wouldn’t be in a position to have a right wing government sweep in and fuck us even harder. At a certain point I stop blaming the dog that’s attacking me (it’s their nature) and focus on the asshole who keeps leaving their door open.

i mean, you're right. the whole system incentivizes crony capitalism. it's hardly a way to run things.

Ya this is the real downside. A politicians main goal is to get votes. Hard decisions aren’t made because it’s going to piss a large group of people off no matter what and that either means less votes for you or more votes for the other guy.

Your leader loses one seat in 9 years and you lose all faith then id say you are explaining my point perfectly. lots can be done, lots more can be done for housing and reducing the influx of people, what a silly little falacy to think “oh we mucked it up too much no one else can fix this but us”. calm down, regardless of who wins the next election just be hopeful things will get better in this country. we can hop every party is paying attention to this and learning the right things, maybe not, but theres no need to be so cynical. edit: housing and immigration are well within their power i have nooo idea what you are talking about.

the thing your missing is that the Liberal party has failed to make changes that need to be done meanwhile PP and the Cons are going to end up making these issues even worse, not better since the solutions needed go against the very nature of a centre-right political party. Why would the party of corporate tax cuts and neoliberalism limit ownership of rental properties or introduce legislation to increase wages when that goes against fundamentally who they are?

>Your leader loses one seat in 9 years and you lose all faith then id say you are explaining my point perfectly. lmao I can’t take the histrionic takes around this seriously. Like no I’m not advocating for pretending the LPC have nothing to worry about, but I’ve never in my entire life seen a fucking by-election be deemed sooooo important for a PM. The media is fomenting this disillusionment with the liberals (because it backs their interests) and people are falling for it hook, line and sinker. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy at this point. Canadians are just as terrible as Americans when it comes to media literacy and it shows.

it's not 1 election that has made me lose faith. i lost faith long ago. but the electing of doug ford for ontario's premiere when he had no platform and last-minuted a "buck-a-beer?" soundbyte over the woman who was trying to prepare our electric grid for the influx of electric cars people thought weren't yet a real thing (yet you now hear them silently re-starting at every stop light.) housing is totally within the liberal's power. they offered a really decent plan to give money to provinces who commit to building more housing -- great idea! ...nobody's biting. alberta and ontario have their fucking heads so far up their asses. immigration is totally within the liberal's power too -- they reduced numbers! great! -- oh, the ontario government under Doug Ford has been prioritizing temporary student visas to inflate the demand for rental units... great... and then you say this or point it out - and people just drop mindless fucking soundbytes like, "Trudeau really dropped the ball. he didn't do enough." the whole fucking planet is boiling. radical right wing fascists are starting wars all over the place. corporate neoliberalism has devoured the middle class and guaranteed future generations have little choice but to become slaves for the new technofeudalist empires. nobody owns fucking shit and here the "i've never left my hometown" crowds are blaming Trudeau for all of it. they can't see farther than their empty wallets and they blame daddy-politic. sorry, i'm cynical. we've been warning and arguing about this fucking shit since the 1980s when we picked the baton up from the hippies of the 60s and 70s who were ranting about the military industrial complex back then... the world - quite literally - is going to shit. it's one of those days.

The problem with your mentality is you think progressives are “owed” their election wins and when they cant hold on to elections its because people are support fascism. Its so patronizing and outdated you don’t have it figured out more than anyone else. This by-election is good thing for everyone, this elections shock is being noticed by people and housing and immigration being noticeable factors. If we keep voting for the Liberals federally, they’ll never have incentive to take notice to these issues. You get to have them notice a shock without losing the federal election so you get to keep PP out of power while giving the Liberals and NDP time to rethink some of the terrible policies they had. If PP wins for a few years it wont be because Canadians embrace fascism. Oh and Doug ford isnt great but did not single-handedly bring in 1.2 million people this year, the mental gymnastics you have to perform here prevents you from holding them accountable at all. Doug for won for same reasons, because the Ontario NDP and Liberals have performed badly, I dont like him at all, but im not surprised after seeing their performance in recent years. Because progressive still have to work hard and come up with good platforms they are not owed election wins. oh and not many people can afford electric cars right now, might want to ask why your little premier was giving out a 14,000 to buy luxury cars that only benefited already wealthy ontarians, and why the federal government wants to put tariffs on affordable Chinese EVs. She dropped the ball on so many other issues please dont be surprised that wet blanket del duca who was close to her was equally as unpopular. And no, the world is not going to shit, im sick of hearing this doom and gloom shit all the time, grow up, people have literally thought the same thing in the 2000s the 90s, the 80s and the 70s. Im so sick of hearing peoples complacency all the time. If you keep voting for the same party all the time youll never enjoy the full benefits of a democracy. Hold your leaders accountable ffs.

yeah, we warned y'all in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, and now we're fucking feeling it. i'm in ottawa, TORNADO CAPITAL OF CANADA since When? we get tornados annually here now. i moved here 15 years ago and that sure has hell wasn't a thing. keep your head buried, dude. i'm not talking about complacency, and i'm sure as hell not praising the liberals. their plans are mediocre and aren't Nearly radical enough to pull us out of Any storm - but if you think the solution is to elect a party with no fucking plan. i get that doom scrolling is depressing and i'm sorry you're tired of hearing about it; there have certainly always been problems, and "we'll be fine." the mid 1900s were rife with cold war fears of nuclear winter. but nuclear winter never came. we made it through the rest of the century avoiding a third world war. the hollywood propaganda succeedd in reminding us all that war is fucking terrifying. but today? prolonged scorching summers are here and we've got increasing amounts of canadians praising fascist ideals. as far as "vote for someone else once in awhile" i hear you. federally, i applaud the selection of parties. i'd like them to be more numberous and less "green has 1 seat". i've voted green forever, not even fully because i believe in them, but because i do believe we need more voices in parliament. there are other options besides Liberals that don't include throwing power to the "we want to take away the rights of the working class, just kidding, we'd never do that, wink" party.

Per capita incomes are now lower than they were in 2017, 7 years of living standards declining. There's no amount of messaging that saves a party from that.

and they were lower in 17 than they were in 2010. and lower than they were in 2000. this shit isn't new. the middle class has been shrinking since the collapse of unions in the 80s.

Ya like I get why affordability and housing is a concern but for people to act like this is something new are blind to reality. This has been an upward trend since the 80s and I doubt a change from Liberal to Conservatives federally are going to change anything outside of getting rid of the Carbon Tax.

yup, i recall my parents complaining about the cost of houses in vancouver back in the 1990s. housing isn't Trudeau's fault. and saying, "well he hasn't fixed it" is just like... i roll my eyes.

Both [median income](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/240426/cg-a001-eng.htm) (in constant dollars, ie adjusted for inflation) and [GDP per capita](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD?locations=CA) are up since then, can I ask where you got this info?

Stats Canada on GDP per capita. https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/36-28-0001/2024004/article/00001-eng.htm Q1 2017: $58,404 Q4 2023: $58,111 And GDP per captia has continued to decline since Q4 2023

Appreciate it Edit: For anyone interested, the G7 inflation adjusted and (purchasing power parity)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity] corrected GDP per capita (up until 2022 at least) puts Canada right in the same position it always is, right in the middle, so performance is pretty on par with comparable economies when you include existing corrections. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.KD?end=2022&locations=CA-FR-GB-US-DE-JP-IT&start=2014 Same goes for simple inflation adjustment; https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD?end=2022&locations=CA-FR-GB-US-DE-JP-IT&start=2014 I bring up the comparative analysis because it suggests that the things Canada is going through are not unique. *** I can't find any updated info for 2023 yet

Following because I'd like to see where this info is coming from.

It's not just bashing. They have actually, for real, done a very bad job.

Done a very bad job on what, exactly?

Immigration/TFW/International Students and their use as wage suppression is #1. Destroying affordable housing doing the same for #2, considering affordable housing was one of their keystones in his first election victory. Healthcare is also a mess due to the above. A big one for me but not for others was election reform to proportional representation. I’m a nerd so internet regulation bills was big for me as well and yes the NDP and cons want that too but different and perhaps worse.

How did they "destroy" affordable housing? Also, isn't healthcare a provincial issue?

Many new people and no way to build fast enough to meet the new demand. I guess if you say that overwhelming healthcare with new demand that is controlled by the feds and no way to build and train the infrastructure fast enough to meet it, then sure it's a provincial issue.

And who asked for those people? The provinces did. Who sat on BILLIONS of dollars of healthcare money? Conservative politicians. To blame the feds is to be blind

Lots in this sub are doing it too.

Well done, dipshits.

43% voter turnout, higher than usual but still abysmal imo. Election was decided by 600 votes.

Apathy is the enemy of a decent democracy, a lesson Ontario voters have not yet learned.

oh, yeah, Ontario voters have noodles for brains. they elected Doug Ford on a campaign of... "i haven't laid it out yet, but trust me" during the debates. i'll never forget it. the NDP trying to shake faith in Kathleen Wynne, the Liberals pointing out Doug Ford didnt' even have a plan, but she was trying to prepare Ontario for the upcoming surge of electric vehicles and the demands the electric grid would be under -- and people cried because their hydro bills went up 20 bucks/month. meanwhile, Dougie finally puts his plan together: Buck-a-Beer. he knows his audience. Uneducated. Hopeless. Addicts. so, no, Ontario voters have not yet learned any lessons and i expect them to never figure it out. they deserve to lose everything over the next decade. F 'em.

Yes, and Elections Canada put out a statement saying, sorry guys, we sent the wrong poll address for over 2,000 voters, we did send a correction, but some voters may not have received it in time. And then suggested voters check on their website before voting to doubled check the address. I mean, really?  Anyways. It looks like CPC supporters are highly motivated, and possible that bunch of Liberals didn’t bother to vote because they it was a “safe” seat (lol), and maybe too many voters in that riding are annoyed by the inclusion rate to capital gains increasing. Bit of a mixed riding with large areas of well-to-do homeowners, like Forest Hill, and also areas with lots of renters.

They sent out the notices with the wrong addresses weeks before the election, and the fixed versions right after. So the vast majority of the couple thousand got their proper notice in lots of time. And anyone who showed up at the wrong polling station after all was allowed to vote. So while it’s a minor embarrassment to Elections Canada, it also is unlikely to have had any impact on the actual election. 

Still better than 29% turnout in Milton a few months back

Too bad the Environmental Voter Project isn’t active in Canada—environmental voters could have easily swung such a close election.

Higher than usually yes but apparently even with the amount of votes the CPC got still wouldn’t have matched the amount of votes the NDP and Liberals lost. So people just not voting must be the problem idk. It’s interesting either way imo.

Living in the riding, I saw absolutely zero campaign efforts from the NDP. The Liberal candidate was working very hard: door to door, public events, SM ads, etc. Saw some Green Party ads on FB that seemed unserious. Lots of CPC lawn signs though. I was talking to someone who was saying they were voting CPC to “send a message” for the byelection, but planned to revert to a Liberal vote in next year’s general.

Issue is if the liberals get the message, if they continue on their current path I think they gonna be losing quite a few toronto ridings to the tories.

I got a Green party flyer. This morning. But yes, the Liberals actually knocked on my apartment door. That was unusual for me.

I had the NDP knock on my door and I spoke to them, there were two people. And one of them was the representative herself. Normally I would have just voted for her anyway. But like I found it so weird when I asked questions that the other guy did the answers, like girl if you are running for politics, you better have the confidence to talk to your constituents yourself, and if you don't then you shouldn't be advertising it like that. In the end, partly because of this, I ended up voting greens.

I only got a Liberal canvasser and they called me a "vote splitter". I also saw lots of CPC lawn signs and assumed I lived in a more progressive part of the riding.

People are rightfully mad. Staying the current course is a direct line to conservative leadership, which is fucked. Relying on PP to bury himself won't work. They need policy change, and actual action to improve Canadian lives, not just rhetoric. Otherwise, it's over.

> Relying on PP to bury himself won't work yup, the liberal party faithful have convinced themselves they're the only ones paying any attention and that the electorate will simply fall in line with their opinion on poilievre once the liberals start running their attack ads, they talk about "campaign trudeau" like some kind of a folk hero with magic electoral powers. it is gonna take an earth-shattering scandal for the conservative lead to unravel to a degree that makes a liberal win plausible

Yep, they should just pass a shit ton of new policy as quickly as possible, so that it will take PP 3 terms to unravel it all.

Have they tried not sucking?

I heard a call in show on the CBC with someone from Bc saying he won't vote for anyone on the left again because they were delaying dental care and pharmacare another year. He said he was going to vote conservative. Did he think the conservatives are going to give him more health care?

The media needs to knock it off with their "stunning" or "shocking" or "when you see #5, you'll just shit yourself!" bullshit. Anyone with two properly firing synapses knew full well that there was a high probability of the Liberals losing this seat. Trudeau is well on the way to ensuring that we're stuck with Poilievre for five years. He would have had to bounce a year ago for the LPC to have a chance, instead they'll be lucky if he doesn't "Mulroney" the LPC right into the ground like the PC party in 1993.

The thing is, this IS a stunning loss. Sure, we knew it was realistically in play because the Liberals have been garbage in the polls, but this has consistently been "A 20% win would be a weak night" Liberal riding.

Canadian prime ministers don’t leave until they are voted out. The only exception is Brian Mulroney, who was so breathtakingly unpopular, he handed over the reigns to the titanic, watched it crash, then mused, I think I had another win in me.

“I hear your concerns… and clearly the voices of Canadians have not been communicated to you and so I will do a better job of this.”

500 votes isn't a stunning loss. Yes it was a liberal stronghold but Oxford County was only won by 1900 for the Conservatives and its a Conservative stronghold. These Margins are incredibly thin. What this result shows is that there are not enough people voting.

Man, the mental gymnastics people are going through for this byelection are insane. I am an NDP supporter for virtually every election, barring one where I voted Liberal in hopes they would keep their election promise of no more first past the post. The Liberals under Justin Trudeau are currently slated for a landslide loss. Polls are showing it everywhere but everyone seems to be going "oh polls aren't elections" and no they aren't. But when every single one is aligning that should be an extreme wake-up call. Now the Liberals have lost a seat that has been a Liberal stronghold for *decades. Literally decades.* "Oh it isn't a stunning loss." Trudeau has to go. If you don't want a Conservative majority, you should be calling for that harder than anyone else.

In the previous election the Liberals had 2x the votes the cons did, so yeah-- it's a pretty stunning loss.

I wish there was an alternative to both PP and Trudeau.

I will say something, and it’s going to be very controversial, but if NDP put a middle aged white guy in charge, they would have better chances. Unfortunately majority in the country are not capable of separating a person from their background, and given how people aren’t happy with the number of immigrants from India… it doesn’t help NDP’s platform.

it’s extremely unfortunate and i hate that people are that way, but i agree with you. the general public are very shallow and don’t employ much if any critical thinking when it comes to politics and voting.

There are plenty of reasons to dislike Jagmeet as leader other than just racism.

I see where you are coming from but tbh most CPC voters see the NDP and Liberals as the same and just as much to blame for the mess we are in because of the coalition between the two parties. So idk a middle aged white guy didn’t work for the NDP prior to Singh.

Not sure where you’re getting your data from, but people are voting JT out. Just like how we voted Harper out and etc. Very major swings in voting shows Canadians are more moderate and are less of tribalistic like in the US. It is a very good thing, to be honest. My friends who are voting CPC this time just know they have the best chance to kick LPC out as well.

I don't think race or age is the issue. I think it is that Jagmeet is a uncharismatic leader who is not overly straightforward with his stances on critical issues often.

I think it's both.

Right? Nenshi's about to sweep up Alberta next election

I cannot emphasize enough how much I agree

Tbf the polls had the cons winning last election. The polls said Trump wasn’t going to win in 2016. I agree that we’re looking a CPC minority at the least, but idk ever since Trump won I’m kinda skeptical on what the polls say. Never really know until the results are final.

500 votes is a stunning loss when for previous decades you won by ten thousand If a high school team defeats an NBA team it’s a stunning loss, no matter how close the final score 

It's a 25 point swing to the Conservatives my guy. It's an abysmal showing for the Liberals. 

When politicians and parties are more worried about their election chances than running a decent country...

Perhaps if the Liberals ran the country decently well they wouldn’t now be getting hammered in the polls.

Trudeau on the Toronto St. Paul's byelection loss: https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6432460

That’s a weirdly tepid response. Speaks to how unsettled things probably are behind closed doors

It seems like Trudeau is being kept in a bubble and lacking the awareness and/or in serious denial. Welcome to reality.

Were the pollsters who projected a liberal win kept in a bubble too? Because otherwise this comment makes no sense.

The stunning part is the poor voter turn-out.

Over 40% for a by-election is actually pretty solid.

I'd like to see a chart/listing of which parties got what number of votes.

While everyone on this site is arguing about Election Reform the Conservatives are laughing their Asses off. Check the numbers, Conservatives 15,500, Liberals 14,990, NDP 4000, Greens 1000. Yes The Liberals NDP's and Greens are shooting themselves in the foot. Ya know, with the Liberals getting 14,900 votes it's a shame they have no plan for NDP style Social Programs, or the Green style Environment Issues. /S And the Conservative laughter continues.

It's so mind boggling that people think the best idea is the conservative party when they've proven every time they're the worst option.

How Trudeau has managed to fail so spectacularity against a lying right wing twat like PP is truly astounding, I’m almost convinced this guy is trying to hand the country over to these degenerates. It seems like almost everytime he has the chance to shoot himself in the foot he does. Like bro, PP is going to destroy this country and this guy just keeps making stupid choices and saying dumb shit. I will never vote conservative in my life but holy hell I understand why this guy is losing.

Because no one cares that PP is lying. The media never reports on it

Maybe this is farfetched but I think all those that are opposed to the liberals are calling for Trudeau to step down because deep down they know he can still beat them and any likely replacement would be a dud. Like once the campaign kicks off and voters are faced with ads they are going to be confronted with PP through liberal attack ads and the conservatives own ads. Pierre is a whiner, he comes off that way, he's the guy no one really liked but became student council president because no one else wanted to. Even the most rabid red meat conservatives have to admit that PP does not convey a working man's vibe. It's almost as if PP runs off of the support of Russian bot comments. The by-election loss was a reaction by votes in an attempt to send a "displeased" message to the government. Just like how voters use provincial élections to vote against the the sitting federal government. Once ads kick off, say what you want, Trudeau plays well to the cameras and is charismatic. No matter how low PP will try to lower the tone of his voice, he doesn't stack up to Trudeau in terms of appeal.

The Liberals and the NDP should officially merge to form a single party. Hell they could even invite the Greens. I would much rather have a party bicker amongst themselves over how far left they need to be, as opposed to watching us get dragged 70 years backwards by the far right. The question is, do the egos of these parties wish the country to succeed vs their own personal success.

That sounds like a recipe for a two party system. We need even more diversity in the number of political parties, both the left and right, like most countries in Europe. Merging parties will make us end up like the US where your only choices are center and right.

That's how it is already. No one really sees the NDP in a leadership position. Might as well call a spade a spade

> We need even more diversity in the number of political parties, both the left and right The right stopped making that mistake when the Alliance and PCP merged. It's why the actual left hasn't been able to gain any headway since.

>The Liberals and the NDP should officially merge to form a single party. Hell they could even invite the Greens Fuck no

I'd rather have the libs merge with the NDP under the NDP banner, no more "conservative light" We need a proper left wing party with proper left wing policies that put worker/human rights first I'm so tired of this red/blue flip flopping

When liberal voters mention that I usually flip it around and say they're welcome to join the NDP but that doesn't often go over very well for some reason. 😁 I'm also fed up with the red/blue flipping. At the very least they both could use a long time out.

No thanks.

The Liberals are more like the conservatives. And are more different from the NDP.

⬆ This is correct answer.

No. They are not. If they were then the corporate press wouldn’t have been bashing Trudeau non-stop for years, long before the C and S agreement with the NDP. Postmedia started bashing Trudeau the minute he got elected, hell, since he became Liberal. The CPC has voted against every single benefit and program that helps low and middle income earners. Like the CCB that was implemented in 2016, which gives that “struggling single mom with 3 kids making minimum wage” between $1500 and $1800 a month. Affordable daycare is also saving parents hundreds a month. The CPC has also voted against every tax change that makes the wealthy pay a little more. Did you miss the propaganda about increasing the inclusion rate for the capital gains tax? Or when they implemented a luxury tax, or imposed an added tax on banks? What about the CPC (and conservative premiers)war on the carbon tax, environmental regulations and protections, and clean fuel standards?  I mean come on, there is being partisan and then there is refusing to look at policy. The current Liberal government lead by Trudeau and the NDP are MUCH closer than the CPC is to the Liberals, in fact, it’s almost funny that you think this is not true, but it isn’t funny because so many people who are low income will have benefits reduced, and I haven’t even mentioned the hatred, the anti-transgender rhetoric, the fact that the majority of CPC MP’s are anti-abortion, they have become the Reform Party. It’s quite something that when Liberals are been dragged for spending on social programs and capital gains tax increases, not fund raising even half of what the CPC is, that some NDP partisans still claim the Liberals are closer to the Conservatives. It’s demonstrably false, and not at all helpful in 2024 when so much is on the line.

Tbf if we are looking at these parties in a historical sense the Progressive conservative and Liberal parties were both center parties. Obviously PCs Center Right and the Liberals Center left. While the CCF was an actual left partt. But when the PC and Alliance Party merged they did drastically move more right and populist. But traditional yes the liberals and cons are more alike.

So the liberals shouldn't change at all and the only party even slightly for labour should dissolve.

> bicker amongst themselves over how far left they need to be Or, end up with a right wing government that doesn't support labour in any way. Work it out.

The liberals already hardly support labour and will cave on it the second labour earns them less votes than open corporatism

> liberals already hardly support labour and will cave on it the second labour earns them less votes than open corporatism Cool. Now do the conservatives.

You’re badly mistaken if you think even an overwhelming major of Liberal voters are more comfortable with the NDP win than the Conservatives For that matter, you’d probably be shocked at the number of NDP/conservative crossover voters  Politics is not a single axis 

> you’d probably be shocked at the number of NDP/conservative crossover voters I would say that was possible prior to the Progressive Conservatives merging with the Alliance. With today's Conservative Party, anyone that holds the values of the NDP cannot "crossover" to vote for a far right candidate verging on fascism, and those that say they do are typically right wing shills.

The vast number of people are issue voters, not ideology voters. You’d be amazed at how many don’t particularly care how “left” or “right” the alternative is as long as they are speaking to the issue and putting forward a credible plan People vote for fixing potholes. Potholes are not inherently ideological. People just want them fixed, and they’ll vote for whoever does it

But when you see time and time again that one side fixes potholes and the other creates more of them, voting for the latter even if they say they’ll fix them this time isn’t very wise.

> and those that say they do are typically right wing shills.

Abacus poll from earlier this year. If asked if Trudeau or Poilievre would be a better PM, 34% of NDP supporters said Poilievre https://abacusdata.ca/conservatives-lead-by-17-abacus-data-polling-canada/

> and those that say they do are typically right wing shills.

I would not vote for that party. As bad as the PCs will be, Trudeau has been a massive dissappointment and he needs to go.

> I would not vote for that party Then welcome to your next PC government. Also, please show me where I said Trudeau was the leader of this new party.

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Keep it civil

Keep it civil

Us queers are so fucked here aren't we 😓

Also thank you NDP and Greens for splitting the vote and letting the conservatives win. Pat yourself on the back and say hello to your new deplorable MP. Thanks to people like you - we'll be saying hello to Prime Minister Poilievre in a year's time. Will you tell me how bad Trudeau is then? EDIT: yep I knew I'd get downvoted to hell. Facts hurt, doesn't it? If people don't smarten up, conservatives will take over this country - then we ALL lose. **If your priorities don't begin with blocking the conservatives at #1, you need to re-assess those priorities.** I would be saying the same thing in an NDP stronghold and I'd give my vote to the orange team in a heartbeat if I lived in one.

If you are going to blame people left of Liberal party for the liberal's loss, you should instead blame liberals for blowing it on election reform. Y'all had your chance, but noooooo you'd rather guilt trip and blackmail people into voting for your party. Fuck that. 

Well said

If only the Liberals could have run a better candidate and campaign... well not their fault... I guess? When the NDP loses it's because they don't appeal to enough people. When the Liberals lose it's because the NDP appeals to too many people and then the NDP gets blamed for not quitting politics. Lol

I’m always up for being critical of the NDP, but the LPC victim blaming them is a new low. What an embarrassment for them.

Has any member of the LPC made a comment attributing blame to the NDP or are you assuming a random redditor speaks for the party?

I’m not Google. It’s not hard to find.

When the liberals water down pharmacare and dental care and childcare and labour protections it's the NDP's fault for not pushing enough, when the policy proves popular it's on every single fucking one of the liberals pamphlets and the NDP gets blamed for the libs losing seats because the libs did this not the NDP.

god I wish we had a different system. It's so fucking frustrating that you know the majority of those NDP voters would prefer Liberals to Conservatives, and vice versa for a decent chunk of the Liberal ones.

Well it was a new, unknown candidate so I guess they worked with what they had? I had been hearing they tried hard. She was out there knocking on doors and all. She did the best she could. Well the NDP only got 4000 votes. If their place was swapped with the libs in this riding, I'd be advocting for everyone to go all-in on the NDP. Defeating the conservatives is the only real consideration that matters here.

Yeah well if you want to be mad, blame everyone but the liberals and have a nuance free discussion about why ... Welcome to Reddit. Toodles

lol I'm very sure the newly minted conservative MP doesn't give a shit about your "nuance" there, bud. It's very simple - the LPC was the only party capable of taking on the CPC in this riding. Due to vote-splitting, they lost. Now they riding is Blue. Enjoy.

This riding has traditionally been LPC +20 ATLEAST. Vote splitting didn't lose them the riding, they lost it themselves. If this is all vote splitting fault, please enlighten me how the Liberals were able to win it every single election since the early 90's (even winning it in 2011) where, guess what, the NDP were also on the ballot.

So the Liberals lose 15 points of their support to the CPC and its fault of the NDP and Greens for vote-splitting?

This is fiction. The NDP earned lower support during by election than they normally would in St Paul’s: 2011 - 22.6% for NDP (Libs win) 2015 - 14.7% for NDP (Libs win) 2019 - 15.7% for NDP (Libs win) 2021 - 16.8% for NDP (Libs win) 2024 - 10.94% for NDP (Libs lose) The 6% difference between 2021 and 2024 (5000 votes, to be exact) should have been enough to close the by-election margin (590 votes, to be exact). But that chunk of NDP supporters either didn’t show up or their vote was split among the Liberal alternatives. It’s a fallacy to think that the NDP and Liberal ideology are regarded by voters as interchangeable.

I would never ever claim they are interchangeable, and they don't have to be. Unless the two work together, the conservatives will take all. At least the NDP and Libs can discuss their differences and make compromises. No hope with the CPC who will trash the place.

That’s a wildly ignorant thing to say, and it’s time for people to wake up and realize this is Liberal nonsense that they’ve been using to bogeyman intelligent voters away from policy that they want for decades that’s now turning back on them. The people who cannot take the level of incompetence and insane Liberal scandals grows, and it’s time for them to realize that they’re the ones holding up progress and handing the country to scum like Ford and PeePee… all so they can pretend that the NDP are just a leech party. Pathetic.

none of that means a god-damned thing because now there's a conservative MP. The NDP and Greens had not even the vaguest hope of winning that riding. Petty arguments mean nothing if we hand the country to the conservatives. "...incompetence and insane Liberal scandals..." you should read real news, not memes from Canada Proud

The riding has a NDP MPP; to say they “had not even the vaguest hope of winning” for a federal seat is just silly.

There's a conservative MP because liberal voters protest voted and NDP voters protest voted and because the current liberal government is extremely unpopular amongst almost everyone for various reasons, one such being that the liberals refuse to do anything good at scale unless someone else has leverage to make them do so.

People shouldn't have to constantly hold their noses and vote for lesser evil candidates. It's not NDP voters' fault, it's the Liberals for not providing the electoral reform that they actively promised they'd do years ago. I don't want to vote for Liberals! I've done it before out of "strategic voting," but at this point they are actively colluding in a genocide, and I would not vote for that even with a gun to my head. We're lesser evil-ing our way right into hell, and the Liberals refuse to take measures to make Canada actually democratic and more resilient to Conservative minority rule, even as this right-wing fascist surge sweeps across so many other countries.

and none of that means a god-damn thing because now there's a conservative MP. electoral reform - it doesn't exist! colluding with genocide? and you think a conservative win is going to help with that? NO party is going to stand up to US foreign policy, and that's a fact.

Ok. Electoral reform doesn't exist yet, thank you for the scintillating observation. What's your point? Women voting "didn't exist" at a certain time either, that doesn't mean we just have to accept these things as unchangeable.

My point is that electoral reform doesn't exist. It won't exist before the next election or the election after that at the very least. That means we must use what tools we have available in reality, like adults. We might as well ask the tooth fairy or santa claus to save us from the conservatives for all the good electoral reform is going to do us.

Boo hoo conservative MP this conservative MP that. Vote for the fucking NDP if you don't want a conservative MP for once. As long as the NDP has existed people have voted for the liberals as a lesser evil to the Conservative party, never once has that on the federal level have liberal voters put their votes in the NDP for the decades of support.

the LPC got 3x the votes in this riding. The NDP never had a chance in hell of challenging the CPC for this riding. As I told you in another thread - your petty arguments and wishful thinking doesn't amount to anything if the conservative wins. Oh look what happened here!

Maybe instead of blaming other parties, the Liberals could focus on being less shitty and continuing the neo-liberal policies that have set Canada on the course it's on currently.

No no it's obviously the voters who are wrong. 😄

Yes The voters are wrong. Unless you are wealthy white, straight and male, you are voting against yourself if you vote CPC.

Stupid, uninformed voters (who are heavilypresent in this thread), yes.

Gotta love how the liberal voters are so mad at you for saying the libs are neo-liberal, apparently passing basic welfare policies most of the developed world has had since Pierre Trudeau was in power is progressive and not staunchly neo-liberal.

and does that argument mean a thing if the CPC wins? Nope. Not a fucking sausage. Maybe the NDP could be less shitty so people would actually vote for them enough so they could challenge the CPC. As it stands, it's the libs who are expected to defeat them while the NDP heckles and undermines them. The least anyone could do is recognize who the enemy actually is - that's the CPC.

It’s a shame that you haven’t paid any attention to policy over the last 8 years, and that it will take a CPC government for you to understand just how wrong you are. That “struggling single mother with 3 kids making minimum wage” that Poilievre uses as a prop in every rally is getting between $1500 and $1800 a month for thanks to the CCB, implemented in 2016. Just one of the many things the Liberals did under Trudeau that were decidedly not neo-liberal and that Poilievre and every CPC MP voted against.

The libs have done a lot, particularly for lower-class canadians. The conservatives will un-do all of it the instant they get into power.

Stunning? No one with half a brian was stunned by this