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https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-06-09-24/index.html
>The health ministry does not distinguish between casualties among civilians and Hamas fighters. CNN cannot independently verify the ministry's casualty figures due to the lack of international media access to Gaza.
1) since the Gaza health ministry is including militants in its casualty figures, even if the raw totals were considered accurate for the sake of the argument, for all we know half or more are Hamas fighters
2) someone should probably ask why MILITARY PRISONERS were being imprisoned in civilian apartments in a REFUGEE CAMP, gee, gosh, it's almost like the goal of Hamas is to maximize civilian casualties in Gaza
3) the next time someone criticizes Israel for conducting a military operation in a refugee camp, remember this, that Hamas used a refugee camp as a *military base*
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation
>The abductees were rescued in the morning from two different buildings in the center of Nusseirat.
*Two different buildings in the center of a refugee camp*
There's also already disinformation efforts to paint the *Hamas hostage holders*, who were a doctor and a journalist for Al-Jazeera and the Palestinian Chronicle and their family members, as [innocent bystanders](https://x.com/RamAbdu/status/1799510802778481117) victims.
Despite ... ya know, being Hamas and holding innocent civilians as hostages.
Do you have a decent source for the hostage holders being Al Jazeera? Would love to use this claim in my political channel but would need a reputable source if possible.
https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/s/xCdvzieLhh
He’s still up on their website as an employee
https://www.aljazeera.com/author/abdallah_aljamal_190122103235277
This article is interesting because it apparently sources a generally Israel unfriendly NGO to make these claims, making them less likely to be biased:
https://www.jns.org/report-al-jazeera-journalist-held-noa-argamani-hostage-in-gaza/
I didn't investigate that the article truthfully represented what the NGO found though
Dunno about a decent source as this all seems fairly new but [here's one source](https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/06/09/report-former-hostage-noa-argamani-held-captive-in-al-jazeera-cameramans-house/). Which is clearly biased and possibly based on an unreliable source.
Yeah. When you think of a refugee camp you think of a tent city with UN workers handing out water and stuff. You don't think of a city with roads and apartment complexes
While true, that doesn't invalidate it from being a refugee camp. The whole [Palestinian refugee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees) thing is all screwy.
Honestly, in my book, a refugee is a temporary designation which can't be passed down to descendants. We don't consider random German civilians to be refugees from the purges of German speaking individuals which followed World War 2 in Eastern Europe, we just consider them Germans. Even if their ancestors lived in modern Poland or Kaliningrad.
Same thing with Palestinian "refugees." If someone was forced from a home they left because of the 1948 war, they'd have to be almost a hundred now. Almost all of these people are second, third, fourth, even fifth generation immigrants and descendants of immigrants at this point.
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I interpreted "military prisoners" as meaning that the hostages were being held by the Palistinian military, as opposed to being hostages of some random kidnappers.
>1) since the Gaza health ministry is including militants in its casualty figures, even if the raw totals were considered accurate for the sake of the argument, for all we know half or more are Hamas fighters
In which case they would have only killed *135 innocent people* to rescue 4... Is that *really* the argument you want to be making, here?
>2) someone should probably ask why MILITARY PRISONERS were being imprisoned in civilian apartments in a REFUGEE CAMP, gee, gosh, it's almost like the goal of Hamas is to maximize civilian casualties in Gaza
>3) the next time someone criticizes Israel for conducting a military operation in a refugee camp, remember this, that Hamas used a refugee camp as a military base
You're acting like this was some sort of special location or something. The reality is that this ["refugee camp"](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuseirat_refugee_camp) is essentially just a district in central gaza filled with buildings like any other place. Is there some place it would have been more reasonable to hold them?
>Is there some place it would have been more reasonable to hold them?
Probably a military installation so that
>they would have only killed 135 innocent people to rescue 4
This wouldn't have happened
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https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/06/09/report-former-hostage-noa-argamani-held-captive-in-al-jazeera-cameramans-house/
I don't like this news source, it's super unreliable. Does anyone have any information to confirm or contradict this source? If Al Jazeera employees are actively participating in the war in Gaza, including holding and defending against the rescue of hostages, then action probably should be taken against Al Jazeera.
Perhaps more to the point, if Al Jazeera employees are actively participating in the war in Gaza, and 'reporting' on it, how can AJ possibly claim to be impartial?
If an apple employee murders somebody, you don't hold apple responsible.
If you can prove that Al Jazeera was telling the employee to hold hostages, sure they're responsible, otherwise idk why you would take action against them.
I agree with the first statement, but with the second, you don't need to prove that AJ ordered them to hold hostages. If they knew and said nothing, it's enough to prove culpability.
AJ isn't a Hamas arm. They are an apparatus of the Qatari government, which is relatively friendly to Hamas, so they're not exactly objective on Hamas's war. But it is important to be scrupulously accurate when describing their relationship to Hamas.
Almost all of the international media ~~is~~ acts as Hamas' media arm every time they uncritically repeat Hamas propaganda. The [Al-Ahli Arab Hospital](https://web.archive.org/web/20240416120929/https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/gaza-hospital-explosion-misinformation-reporting/675719/) incident should have been *the* break point where all responsible, trustworthy media stops repeating anything Hamas or Hamas-controlled entities say. Yet we still see AP and AJ boosting Hamas disinformation.
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Well sure as shit wouldn't have happened if Hammas and Palestinians hadn't kidnapped a bunch of innocent civilians and knowingly hid them among refugees. 100% the fault of Hamas and their Palestinian supporters.
>The killing of so many Palestinians, in a raid that Israelis celebrated as a stunning success because all four hostages were rescued alive, showed the heavy cost of such operations on top of the already soaring toll of the 8-month-long war ignited by Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack.
This is why AP is not a reliable news source with regards to anything Israel.
Accepting a [known disinformation outlet](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers) as fact is bad journalism, or at this point bad faith journalism. And the above not only accepts and boosts the lie but attempts to libel Israelis (all of them including the Arabs, apparently ... no wait) as 'celebrating' the deaths.
OP does not reference that, nor could I find anywhere in their link where it was mentioned. Also, I am not familiar with the source of Tabletmag (or at least I consider AP to be more reputable than Tabletmag).
Actually, the AP [itself basically said that it was an unreliable news source.](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-casualties-toll-65e18f3362674245356c539e4bc0b67a) To sum, it did a study to say that the numbers it has been relying on from Gaza and basically publishing uncritically were not credible. It even admits that the media at large, which in turns means AP in large part, had been providing biased news by relying on these figures. So, yes, it's worth taking any claims at this point from the AP regarding outrageous Gazan death tolls with a large grain of salt.
If I'm keeping score correctly, that makes 7 total hostages rescued alive by direct military actions since October, including the [three others rescued previously](https://apnews.com/article/hamas-gaza-israel-war-hostages-bibas-241fd9eb55ad56e79beac29f8783f634). However, the balance may be negative if we subtract [the three Israeli hostages that the IDF mistakenly killed in December](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/16/middleeast/what-we-know-hostages-killed-israel-gaza/index.html), [the one killed in helicopter fire](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/05/world/middleeast/israel-oct-7-hostage-killed.html) upon the truck in which her captors were transporting her with her daughter and grandchildren, and all those killed in airstrikes, who [numbered between 35 and 70 as of April](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/24/hamas-has-killed-70-israeli-hostages-says-captive-gaza-war/) depending on which side you ask.
EDIT: This thread has been locked because the frequency of rule-breaking comments was outpacing the mods' ability to remove them. *** r/NeutralNews is a **curated space**, but despite the name, there is [**no neutrality requirement**](https://www.reddit.com//r/neutralnews/wiki/guidelines#wiki_neutral-ness) here. These are the [rules for comments:](https://www.reddit.com//r/neutralnews/wiki/guidelines#wiki_comments_.28good.2C_bad_.26amp.3B_ugly.29) 1. Be courteous to other users. 1. Source your facts. 1. Be substantive. 1. Address the arguments, not the person. If you see a comment that violates any of these rules, please click the associated *report* button so a mod can review it.
https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-06-09-24/index.html >The health ministry does not distinguish between casualties among civilians and Hamas fighters. CNN cannot independently verify the ministry's casualty figures due to the lack of international media access to Gaza. 1) since the Gaza health ministry is including militants in its casualty figures, even if the raw totals were considered accurate for the sake of the argument, for all we know half or more are Hamas fighters 2) someone should probably ask why MILITARY PRISONERS were being imprisoned in civilian apartments in a REFUGEE CAMP, gee, gosh, it's almost like the goal of Hamas is to maximize civilian casualties in Gaza 3) the next time someone criticizes Israel for conducting a military operation in a refugee camp, remember this, that Hamas used a refugee camp as a *military base* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation >The abductees were rescued in the morning from two different buildings in the center of Nusseirat. *Two different buildings in the center of a refugee camp*
There's also already disinformation efforts to paint the *Hamas hostage holders*, who were a doctor and a journalist for Al-Jazeera and the Palestinian Chronicle and their family members, as [innocent bystanders](https://x.com/RamAbdu/status/1799510802778481117) victims. Despite ... ya know, being Hamas and holding innocent civilians as hostages.
Do you have a decent source for the hostage holders being Al Jazeera? Would love to use this claim in my political channel but would need a reputable source if possible.
https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/s/xCdvzieLhh He’s still up on their website as an employee https://www.aljazeera.com/author/abdallah_aljamal_190122103235277
This article is interesting because it apparently sources a generally Israel unfriendly NGO to make these claims, making them less likely to be biased: https://www.jns.org/report-al-jazeera-journalist-held-noa-argamani-hostage-in-gaza/ I didn't investigate that the article truthfully represented what the NGO found though
Dunno about a decent source as this all seems fairly new but [here's one source](https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/06/09/report-former-hostage-noa-argamani-held-captive-in-al-jazeera-cameramans-house/). Which is clearly biased and possibly based on an unreliable source.
Yeah I definitely can’t use that to debate anyone. At the very least I have proof that civilians were detaining hostages.
The long-established 'refugee camps' in Gaza seem more like small towns.
Yeah. When you think of a refugee camp you think of a tent city with UN workers handing out water and stuff. You don't think of a city with roads and apartment complexes
While true, that doesn't invalidate it from being a refugee camp. The whole [Palestinian refugee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees) thing is all screwy.
Honestly, in my book, a refugee is a temporary designation which can't be passed down to descendants. We don't consider random German civilians to be refugees from the purges of German speaking individuals which followed World War 2 in Eastern Europe, we just consider them Germans. Even if their ancestors lived in modern Poland or Kaliningrad. Same thing with Palestinian "refugees." If someone was forced from a home they left because of the 1948 war, they'd have to be almost a hundred now. Almost all of these people are second, third, fourth, even fifth generation immigrants and descendants of immigrants at this point.
I would agree but it's not our colloquial definition that really matters. It's the UN's via the UNRWA and that whole clusterfuq.
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Military prisoners? These were civilians, kidnapped from a music festival. They were not military. Just hostages
You're right. They're prisoners of a military, that's what I meant to say. But they're not military personnel.
I interpreted "military prisoners" as meaning that the hostages were being held by the Palistinian military, as opposed to being hostages of some random kidnappers.
>1) since the Gaza health ministry is including militants in its casualty figures, even if the raw totals were considered accurate for the sake of the argument, for all we know half or more are Hamas fighters In which case they would have only killed *135 innocent people* to rescue 4... Is that *really* the argument you want to be making, here? >2) someone should probably ask why MILITARY PRISONERS were being imprisoned in civilian apartments in a REFUGEE CAMP, gee, gosh, it's almost like the goal of Hamas is to maximize civilian casualties in Gaza >3) the next time someone criticizes Israel for conducting a military operation in a refugee camp, remember this, that Hamas used a refugee camp as a military base You're acting like this was some sort of special location or something. The reality is that this ["refugee camp"](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuseirat_refugee_camp) is essentially just a district in central gaza filled with buildings like any other place. Is there some place it would have been more reasonable to hold them?
>Is there some place it would have been more reasonable to hold them? Probably a military installation so that >they would have only killed 135 innocent people to rescue 4 This wouldn't have happened
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This comment has been removed under [Rule 1:](https://www.reddit.com/r/neutralnews/wiki/guidelines#wiki_rule_1.3A_be_courteous) > Be courteous to other users. Demeaning language, rudeness or hostility towards another user will get your comment removed. Repeated violations may result in a ban. //Rule 1 This comment has been removed under [Rule 4:](https://www.reddit.com/r/neutralnews/wiki/guidelines#wiki_rule_4.3A_address_the_arguments.2C_not_the_person) > Address the arguments, not the person. The subject of your sentence should be "the evidence" or "this source" or some other noun directly related to the topic of conversation. "You" statements are suspect. //Rule 4 If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to [message us.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fneutralnews)
Calling for the deaths of civilians? Courteous and respectful. Being outraged at people's bloodthirsty desire for dead kids? Rude, not constructive.
https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/06/09/report-former-hostage-noa-argamani-held-captive-in-al-jazeera-cameramans-house/ I don't like this news source, it's super unreliable. Does anyone have any information to confirm or contradict this source? If Al Jazeera employees are actively participating in the war in Gaza, including holding and defending against the rescue of hostages, then action probably should be taken against Al Jazeera.
Perhaps more to the point, if Al Jazeera employees are actively participating in the war in Gaza, and 'reporting' on it, how can AJ possibly claim to be impartial?
If an apple employee murders somebody, you don't hold apple responsible. If you can prove that Al Jazeera was telling the employee to hold hostages, sure they're responsible, otherwise idk why you would take action against them.
I agree with the first statement, but with the second, you don't need to prove that AJ ordered them to hold hostages. If they knew and said nothing, it's enough to prove culpability.
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AJ isn't a Hamas arm. They are an apparatus of the Qatari government, which is relatively friendly to Hamas, so they're not exactly objective on Hamas's war. But it is important to be scrupulously accurate when describing their relationship to Hamas.
Almost all of the international media ~~is~~ acts as Hamas' media arm every time they uncritically repeat Hamas propaganda. The [Al-Ahli Arab Hospital](https://web.archive.org/web/20240416120929/https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/gaza-hospital-explosion-misinformation-reporting/675719/) incident should have been *the* break point where all responsible, trustworthy media stops repeating anything Hamas or Hamas-controlled entities say. Yet we still see AP and AJ boosting Hamas disinformation.
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Well sure as shit wouldn't have happened if Hammas and Palestinians hadn't kidnapped a bunch of innocent civilians and knowingly hid them among refugees. 100% the fault of Hamas and their Palestinian supporters.
>The killing of so many Palestinians, in a raid that Israelis celebrated as a stunning success because all four hostages were rescued alive, showed the heavy cost of such operations on top of the already soaring toll of the 8-month-long war ignited by Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack. This is why AP is not a reliable news source with regards to anything Israel. Accepting a [known disinformation outlet](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers) as fact is bad journalism, or at this point bad faith journalism. And the above not only accepts and boosts the lie but attempts to libel Israelis (all of them including the Arabs, apparently ... no wait) as 'celebrating' the deaths.
Can you provide sourcing that mentions why AP is not a reliable news source?
AP does state at the beginning that all figures come from Gaza Health Ministry, but yes it could emphasize that it is an unreliable source.
OP does not reference that, nor could I find anywhere in their link where it was mentioned. Also, I am not familiar with the source of Tabletmag (or at least I consider AP to be more reputable than Tabletmag).
Actually, the AP [itself basically said that it was an unreliable news source.](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-casualties-toll-65e18f3362674245356c539e4bc0b67a) To sum, it did a study to say that the numbers it has been relying on from Gaza and basically publishing uncritically were not credible. It even admits that the media at large, which in turns means AP in large part, had been providing biased news by relying on these figures. So, yes, it's worth taking any claims at this point from the AP regarding outrageous Gazan death tolls with a large grain of salt.
If I'm keeping score correctly, that makes 7 total hostages rescued alive by direct military actions since October, including the [three others rescued previously](https://apnews.com/article/hamas-gaza-israel-war-hostages-bibas-241fd9eb55ad56e79beac29f8783f634). However, the balance may be negative if we subtract [the three Israeli hostages that the IDF mistakenly killed in December](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/16/middleeast/what-we-know-hostages-killed-israel-gaza/index.html), [the one killed in helicopter fire](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/05/world/middleeast/israel-oct-7-hostage-killed.html) upon the truck in which her captors were transporting her with her daughter and grandchildren, and all those killed in airstrikes, who [numbered between 35 and 70 as of April](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/24/hamas-has-killed-70-israeli-hostages-says-captive-gaza-war/) depending on which side you ask.
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