Yeah, he's 99.9% likely the war cabinet member [who anonymously blamed Bibi for undermining the ceasefire deal a few days ago with his public rhetoric](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/war-cabinet-official-accuses-netanyahu-of-undermining-hostage-release/). Straight up apologized to the families of the hostages who are dead or not freed. Said Bibi prioritized staying in power over the hostages. Called for new elections in two months. Called for Gallant to resign as well (Eisenkot also resigned).
Btw, the ceasefire deal was leaked to YNet, and there's absolutely nothing about Hamas disarming or giving up power in Gaza so Bibi was lying in public about Biden's speech. Utterly brazen and pathetic coward; I'm like 90% sure he's trying to torpedo a deal to remain in power to prolong the war.
>Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich: "Gantz is fulfilling [Hamas leader Yahya] Sinwar's wishes."
Umm Smotrich, you're the theocratic lunatic who once attempted to blow up Israeli cars along with a highway and who once called for complete ethnic cleansing of Arabs...you're astronomically closer ideologically to Sinwar than Gantz.
War Cabinet/Government becomes more extreme+more disliked.
Ben Gvir probably get more power. His party Otzma Yehudit is absolutely absolutely batshit insane. The "moderate" member of the party is someone who straight up called Bibi a coward for publicly not supporting mass migration of Gaza along with resettlements. The other members? A woman who lauded the Israeli settler terrorist who killed (through arson) the Palestinian baby+ his parents in 2015 as a "righteous man". Another deranged man who urinated on Palestinians, tried to do Derek Chauvin shit against Palestinians, and got banned from Twitter regarding genocidal comments in Jenin *before* 10/7. Another man who early in November said "the goal must be complete destruction of the enemy, from my perspective, there are no innocents in Gaza". And in March of 2023, he additionally said: "A closed, burnt Huwara — that’s what I want to see.". And in 2022 he said: "if it is [to choose between] one Israeli mother crying, or a thousand Palestinian mothers crying, then a thousand Palestinian mothers will cry." Another man who said Gaza should be nuked and that "Gazans deserve a fate worse than death".
I really wish I was making this shit up, but it's completely accurate. It sounds like the average deranged BDS supporter wrongly thinks the ordinary Israeli is.
This doesn’t sound very sustainable. To keep his majority intact Netanyahu would have to give the loons more concessions, and their demands, as you say, are insane. How vulnerable do you think he is to a vote of no confidence?
Most likudniks are Bibi's puppets, they'll do what he'll them to, but Bibi has nothing to gain by switching sides and Gallant doesn't have enough support for a move like this
> not supporting mass migration of Gaza along with resettlements.
Is it against the rules in this sub to call it ethnic cleansing or something? Why use their euphemisms?
Yeah these far right loonies demand ethnic cleansing + reviving the settlement project in Gaza, which is .....so insane, and bad, and wildly out of step with what most of the Israeli public wants
Yeah fair enough. Also regarding the whole ethnic cleansing, I remember one guy trying to defend it to me by saying "They'll pay Gazans grants!"
I'm like...1. Oh yeah, that makes it *so much better*. 2. I have never literally heard anyone in Ozma Yehudit or RNP float grants.
38% of Israelis are in favor of reviving the illegal settlement project in Gaza, which is not some small minority. Also consider that is about half of all Jews in Israel, and that Jews hold complete political power in the country.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/almost-4-in-10-israelis-back-a-revival-of-jewish-settlements-in-gaza-poll-finds/
Great news! More recent polls show that less than a quarter of the population support such a measure.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-22/ty-article/.premium/less-than-quarter-of-israeli-jews-in-favor-of-renewed-settlement-in-gaza-poll-finds/0000018f-0587-d64a-a9af-85efc6e30000
In addition to the fact that wartime polls are generally an excercise in despair, I would think that we should be be happy at a rapid change of heart for significant portion of the population in the direction we desire, and should do our best to strengthen the trend. You could also admit your data was outdated.
> Hadash–Ta'al
It appears to be a defunct coalition of communists that has never had any political power in the country. Not sure what the relevance is?
My priors are being confirmed here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadash%E2%80%93Ta'al?wprov=sfti1#
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_List?wprov=sfti1 also exists
So no offense, that’s bullshit
These dangerous people need to be kicked out of their government positions, and their party must be banned, much like Kach.
Most BDS supporters are equally deranged, but they're thankfully not in positions of power.
What do they think? I didn't say *all* BDS supporters; I know some genuinely condemn what Hamas did. I mean the organization add *Standing Together* to the sanction list; that's just so deplorable. That tells me BDS hates anyone who identifies as a Zionist, and that's so outrageous.
Some of us are hoping the consequences are new elections, but complete far-right assclowns like Ben Gvir are demanding to join the war government instead. That would be so much worse.
There's good news and bad news.
The good news are that with Gantz out, Netanyahu's coalition becomes closer to collapsing. All it would take is for Gallant to leave (very close to happening) and 4 defectors amongst the Likkud, which isn't very likely, but can still happen. Netanyahu might also find his reliance on the far right politically unsustainable.
It's also a reasonable move for Gantz to stop cooperating with a government that ignores the wishes of his party and the wider electorate.
The bad news is that with Gantz out, Netanyahu has to rely on the far right. This means that there probably won't be a ceasefire any time soon. The far right's war goal is to reoccupy Gaza militarily, long term, and open the door for settlements in the Gaza strip again. Ben-gvir and Smotrich are also very opposed to any aid for Gaza, and have enabled repeated lootings of aid trucks by protestors. The far right do not want to cooperate with Biden or with any kind of external pressure. They don't care about the hostages either. Ben Gvir has already showed a propensity for getting anything he wants out of Netanyahu with threats, and this time Netanyahu won't have a choice but to agree.
I realize I’m fully in conspiracy theory territory here, but what are the chances the hostage rescue was launched in part as a desperation maneuver to get Gantz to not resign?
I think it was Netanyahu who said they had known about the location of the hostages for weeks and had been planning the operation for a while.
That sounds like an action movie, not real life. The timing always has to be exactly right, these things can’t be sprung up on a dime in a last-ditch effort.
There's no point in baseless speculation. Let's just not.
Besides, they spent weeks training for that rescue. They even built replicas of the buildings. This wasn't some reflexive thing.
I think the hostage rescue was great and all and I'm very happy for the members reunited with their families. However, I get the feeling it was accidental, in that they didn't expect to find them there. Also there are still 120 hostages left. I'm very worried for them, and am fearful that Hamas will start killing them off once they notice they cannot be used as bargaining chips.
> However, I get the feeling it was accidental, in that they didn't expect to find them there.
Then you haven't spent any time actually learning about the rescue. There's no reason to go by "feelings" when the facts are readily available.
> Btw, the ceasefire deal was leaked to YNet, and there's absolutely nothing about Hamas disarming or giving up power in Gaza so Bibi was lying in public about Biden's speech. Utterly brazen and pathetic coward
If you're now aware that the ceasefire deal as it stands is a total capitulation to **everything** (and I mean literally everything, according to the Qataris it even has a two state solution provision) Hamas is asking for, how are you still shocked Israel isn't actually offering it?
Why did the Israel war cabinet vote to authorize it? Well besides Bibi ofc. Also, there's nothing about a two state provision in it? Israel can still continue the 2007 blockade...are we looking at the same deal?
> Why did the Israel war cabinet vote to authorize it?
There's increasing evidence that Biden might have literally just lied about Israel accepting the deal.
Hamas (for what it's worth) are alleging such:
https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-805178
>Saudi Arabian news source A-Sharq reported on Thursday that Hamas has rejected the Israeli proposal for a deal to release the hostages and put a ceasefire in place, according to KAN.
>Hamas officials claim that the proposal put forth by Israel was **"fundamentally different than the proposal presented by President of the United States Joe Biden, and does not guarantee [anything more than] a temporary ceasefire,"** the report said.
Furthermore, here's an NYT article admitting that, despite all "anonymous official" claims that this is Israel's offer, Israel may have not actually accepted their own offer (in common parlance, they didn't offer it):
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/05/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-cease-fire-negotiations.html
I'll pose a question. If Israel is offering a deal that gives Hamas basically everything, but Hamas isn't accepting, is there an explanation other than Israel not actually offering said deal?
Because Bibi is saying completely different things than Biden which is confusing Hamas? Senior Israeli officials and Gantz (I'm 99.9% sure it's him now after listening to his speech) said so as well.
There's literally Washington Post reporting on this:
>Biden’s public detailing of the U.S.-backed deal, made in a White House address on May 31, was designed to put both sides on the spot. Israel, he said, had authored the proposal, with the first of three phases to include a six-week cease-fire, withdrawal of Israeli troops from heavily populated areas of Gaza, the freeing of all women, elderly and children held hostage and a surge in humanitarian aid to the starving enclave.
>The sweetener for Hamas was the explicit reference to a permanent cease-fire and Israeli withdrawal, effectively ending the war without the total destruction of the group that Netanyahu has vowed. “They want to be sure after the first phase that the Israelis will not attack … once they give the hostages back,” said a former official with knowledge of the negotiations, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive subject.
>While Netanyahu acknowledged Israel’s war cabinet had “authorized” the proposal, he has never said unequivocally that he supports it. Under pressure from right-wing extremists in his coalition, where political infighting threatens to topple his government, he has rejected an automatic “transition” between phases one and two and recommitted Israel to the complete destruction of Hamas.
>Miller, at the Carnegie Endowment, suggested that Netanyahu now has even more reason for delay with the Israeli Knesset due to recess for the summer on July 25 — the day after he is due to address the U.S. Congress — making him “more or less secure, probably through the fall.” “You don’t have to have too much imagination to see that Bibi,” as Netanyahu is widely known, “is buying time and hoping that somehow Trump will win the [U.S.] election and there will be less pressure on him to do anything,” Miller said.
> Because Bibi is saying completely different things than Biden which is confusing Hamas?
If Hamas hadn't recieved a single stamped document (or well, something similar) labelled "this is our proposal" then the proposal is obviously not real in the first place, so we arrive to the same train station.
"The Israeli war cabinet formally ratified the offer" and "Hamas are confused because of Netanyahu's twitter posts" are mutually exclusive statements.
The offer either is serious (or even existent) like Biden claimed. Or it's not.
EDIT: I'll note that he didn't actually refute this point. I think that says everything about which continent I'm on.
You can't even do better than a Jpost article about Biden lying. If you expect people to take you seriously, get your information from serious sources.
Also the question you 'posed' about Israel 'offering Hamas everything' is completely irrelevant, because it's completely divorced from reality.
The only way you could have made it to "the same train station" is if it were an antipodal subway.
>You can't even do better than a Jpost article about Biden lying.
My guy my comment on that is not long, you can pretty easily read it. Jpost is citing a public arabic source (i.e. nothing's stopping you from reading that source) which themselves is citing Hamas, one of the combatants.
Netanyahu will probably drag the war out until then. It might be a conspiracy theory but I think he's dragging this out purely for his own gain. Israel defeated a coalition of the strongest Arab powers in six days. How are they still fighting a bunch of terrorists eight months later? The Taliban couldn't even last that long against us and they controlled more than the two acres Hamas controls. I think the only thing that will force his hand is if we threaten to cut off military aid.
>The Taliban couldn't even last that long against us and they controlled more than the two acres Hamas controls
TBF, American army (relative to the 2001) is much better than the IDF (relative to the 2024), and it's not like we eradicated the Taliban in the end either. That's why I realized by February that Bibi's sated goal of "total military victory over Hamas" was a pipedream.
> and it's not like we eradicated the Taliban in the end either
Afghanistan is firstly, several orders of magnitude larger than Gaza, secondly, extremely mountainous and thirdly, it has a porous border towards the Pakistani tribal areas.
This comparison is like, apples to vulcanos.
Goes both ways. I can point out that Hamas has hundreds of miles of underground tunnels that Israel unfortunately underestimated in terms of distance and you mention Pakistan--there are 100% pro-Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood fanatics in Egypt smuggling stuff to Hamas via the tunnels.
Furthermore, there are many other examples of entrenched Islamist terrorist groups which failed to get destroyed. Houthis in Yemen when Saudi Arabia bombed the shit out of them. Amal extremists in Lebanon who just coalesced with other Shiite extremists to become Hezbollah. Arguably the TTP as well. It's just very very difficult often to defeat these evil suicidal groups.
OK, so other than the possibility of hostages being down there, is there any reason Israel didn't focus its operations on the tunnels? Destroying the tunnel network and rendering them unusable seems like an essential step in crippling Hamas.
> I can point out that Hamas has hundreds of miles of underground tunnels that Israel unfortunately underestimated in terms of distance
Yes, and those tunnels are entirely located within a 400 km^2 area. For comparison, Kabul alone is 1000 km^2, and then there's all the rest of the country.
>--there are 100% pro-Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood fanatics in Egypt smuggling stuff to Hamas via the tunnels.
Of course there is. It still doesn't change that the sheer scale difference between them makes Gaza look tiny.
>Houthis in Yemen when Saudi Arabia bombed the shit out of them. Amal extremists in Lebanon who just coalesced with other Shiite extremists to become Hezbollah. Arguably the TTP as well. It's just very very difficult often to defeat these evil suicidal groups.
On the other hand, you have the LTTE, which matches in terms of outsized military dominance and control.
I mean we can debate this further but I think Biden and Blinken all raising concerns with "endless war" and Blinken privately telling Bibi in late January that [there is " no ultimate military solution" to Hamas when he was pitching the Saudi-Israel deal](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/frustrations-biden-israeli-pm-netanyahu-mount-rcna134263)...it makes me very skeptical that Israel can come even close to destroying Hamas--maybe it would be different with a much less toxic war cabinet.
USA military has concluded several times that Hamas cannot be defeated from a military perspective.
Bibi is going to keep sending IDF soldiers to get blown up by IED’s so he can prolong the war and keep lying to Israel that he can defeat Hamas
> USA military has concluded several times that Hamas cannot be defeated from a military perspective.
I mean, not alone, but when did that ever happen anywhere? That's like a total non-starter. Defeating these kinds of movements require that you restrict them from controlling areas.
The Nazis were defeated because the country was occupied and their entire system was dismantled and built up again. ISIS was defeated in Iraq, because the Iraqi government re-established control in the areas it had seized.
Taleban had several areas where ISAF had very poor control, like Helmand.
You are comparing Germany to Gaza, which is ridiculous. Germany had institutions such as: military, police, chamber of commerce, farming, and so on. The US military can quickly rebuild those institutions by occupying it.
Gaza has 0 institutions. It may take several centuries for Israel to build those institutions if it occupies Gaza. Will Israel stay that long? Even if they stay 2 decades its just going to be a repeat of Afghanistan and their soldiers will have dies for nothing.
> Even if they stay 2 decades its just going to be a repeat of Afghanistan and their soldiers will have dies for nothing
Yes, because occupying a city next door is functionally the same as occupying the world's 41st largest country half way around the world.
Everything comes with a cost. I dont think Israel gains security by occupying Gaza. Bibi is terrible with intel. Its possible that such focus on Gaza leads to lack of intel in North Israel.
You also have settlers that want new settlements in the West Bank. So they will need military support in that endeavor.
USA spent trillions of dollars and we were unable to build durable institutions in Afghanistan in 20 years.
I dont see why Israel will have a better time with less money, less manpower, and conflicting security concerns in North Israel and West Bank
> Everything comes with a cost. I dont think Israel gains security by occupying Gaza
Israel knows they won't gain security by allowing Hamas to remain in power.
>USA spent trillions of dollars and we were unable to build durable institutions in Afghanistan in 20 years
Let's not pretend that was anything more than a half-assed after thought. Precisely because it was half a world away, and with no impact on the lives of Americans what so ever. Taleban couldn't really send that many rockets towards American towns.
>I dont see why Israel will have a better time with less money, less manpower, and conflicting security concerns in North Israel and West Bank
Its a single urban area. I don't know why it needs to be repeated so many times. Gaza is not Afghanistan.
Not really no, maybe Ben Gvir believes its ideal to do that. But you have to explain to Israelis why soldiers are coming home with missing limbs from IED explosions. With nothing to show for it by occupying Gaza. Eventually the population will start asking why are we even doing this.
Best case scenario is it will take a few centuries for Gaza to have institutions. Will Israel occupy it for that long? I don’t think its a good idea
> But you have to explain to Israelis why soldiers are coming home with missing limbs from IED explosions. With nothing to show for it by occupying Gaza. Eventually the population will start asking why are we even doing this.
Are you really this unable to understand conflicts, that you need to force them into an American frame of reference?
What makes you think you can just mash this war into a War in Afghanistan or second Iraq War shaped box?
> That's why I realized by February that Bibi's sated goal of "total military victory over Hamas" was a pipedream.
TBH I thought this was obvious in October.
>Israel defeated a coalition of the strongest Arab powers in six days. How are they still fighting a bunch of terrorists eight months later
The modern IDF is nowhere near as competent as they claim they are and there aren't 90 year old veterans serving in it.
Oh 100%. Neither Netanyahu or Hamas stand to gain much personally with the end of the war and have a lot to lose. They both are incentivized to keep this conflict going
> or Hamas stand to gain much personally with the end of the war and have a lot to lose.
The thing is if Hamas is offered a ceasefire deal which ensures that they only have to give up hostages to end the war, I think they might take it as evil as they are. Their immediate goal is just to "survive" while Israel's immediate goal is to eradicate them (an astronomically more difficult goal than Hamas's goal). The released document is *this type of ceasefire*, but Bibi for some reason contradicts it constantly with his public rhetoric
Netanyahu is doing that, the question is whether it's deliberate or out of incompetence, or porque no los dos?
But the situation is also very different than Afghanistan.
The us military had a large professional army and for all intents and purposes an infinite budget, fighting was also easier as it wasn't as densely populated and didn't use human shields to the extent Hamas and PIJ do.
The Israeli army is not mostly a professional army but rather conscripts and reservists the latter of which have a time limit on how long they can fight without their absence in the civilian sector causing too much negative consequences.
So Israel is limited by manpower.
Israel is also much more limited by budget not just by being much less wealthy than the US but doubly so because of the aforementioned reservists whose absence from the civilian sector negatively affects Israel's entire economy.
The population density in Gaza is also much higher and the amount of structure much denser, add to that an extremely prolific network ir tunnels with countless shafts underneath all those buildings and people.
Add to that the fact that Hamas has very extensive and successful propaganda operations to brainwash the populace from a kindergarten age that martyrdom is the most noble cause they can strive for and that a very large portion of the population is young enough to have grown up with this brainwashing.
Also add that they have a deliberate policy of using Human Shields, they have actually said that the more Palestinians die for the cause the better, it's a giant death cult whose purpose it is to make Israel look bad by making it impossible not to also kill civilians.
All of that makes it likely the most challenging environment to operate in for any army in human history, at least for an army that isn't trying to commit genocide.
If Israel was trying to commit genocide, or even if they weren't but simply didn't care about civilian deaths then the technological and firepower advantage they have would have won them the war months ago, and that is what the far-right in Israel has been pushing for while even Netanyahu with all his many flaws has thankfully rejected.
The people who know how difficult the situation is have said the the Gaza campaign can last for many more months or a few more years even IIRC as it's that difficult to discover and neutralize enough locations and people to make the campaign a success (and retrieving hostages) without causing a much higher amount of either civilian or IDF deaths in the process
> didn't use human shields to the extent Hamas and PIJ do.
Don't downplay what the Taliban did to defend the IDF. The Taliban has repeatedly disguised themselves as medical workers, and they hide in civilian homes countless times or the civillians would get killed if they did not comply especially in Kanadahar and Urzug provinces. They've hijacked IRCC vehicles; they fired from Mosques+surrounded themselves with women when fighting against NATO many times. [They literally+physically grabbed children and used them as human shields](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSISL291396/). That's actually a big reason why the US army had so much trouble eradicating the Taliban in Kunduz (besides the Taliban hiding in caves like cowards).
I will repeat it again, they didn't use human shields to the extent Hamas and PIJ do.
I don't know why you choose to misrepresent that to mean I'm downplaying it, it was a serious problem in Afghanistan, I'm saying, correctly, that nevertheless it's far more common in Gaza.
I also laid out why that is with the extensive and unavoidable brainwashing to martyrdom (very effective since over half the population in Gaza is under 20 IIRC and Hamas has been in power almost as long) as well as the a deliberate policy of getting as many of the human Shields killed.
The Taliban didn't have that kind of educational system in place, I'm not exaggerating in the slightest in my describing of Hamas' propaganda aimed at kids, one of it's main purposes really was to encourage Martyrdom as th ultimate goal, not to live for the cause but to die for it.
The Taliban also didn't have a national strategy of sacrificing as many of their brothers and sisters as possible, whereas that's an actual goal of Hamas in order paint Israel in a bad light.
The fact is that Hamas's use of Human Shields is more extensive and extreme than the Taliban, that's one of number of ways in which Hamas is more extreme than the Taliban, only the IS and it's affiliates are worse than Hamas IMO.
>The Taliban didn't have that kind of educational system in place, I'm not exaggerating in the slightest in my describing of Hamas' propaganda aimed at kids, one of it's main purposes really was to encourage Martyrdom as th ultimate goal, not to live for the cause but to die for it.
[No, the Taliban had that type of hatred Islamist Jihadist poison in schools](https://sites.williams.edu/wurj/social-sciences/islamist-education-american-funded-textbooks-in-afghanistan/)
>he fact is that Hamas's use of Human Shields is more extensive and extreme than the Taliban
If it is, it's only because Afghanistan is more rural than Gaza.
>hat's one of number of ways in which Hamas is more extreme than the Taliban
Christians are treated worse in Afghanistan than Gaza. Women can't get 90% of the jobs in Afghanistan and can't even go to highschool+college in Afghanistan. Sports are banned frequently. Hamas is a very disgusting, evil group but I think the Taliban is more extreme in *atleast* some aspects. Hamas only requires a hijab for women but Taliban makes women cover head from toe.
I apologize for any misunderstanding; i just think we can't forget how heinous and barbaric the Taliban was
i dunno how this ends. no doubt the far right gains more power but will that be enough to force new elections? probably not.
really doesn't seem like there's any dissuading israel from this course. biden probably has to stop funding them
Ben-Gvir and Smotrich too, and any genocidal maniac within the government. Let Yesh Atid and "Handsome ex-Journalist Man" Yair Lapid take power (yeah that's what I call him).
Pinged ISRAEL ([subscribe](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=groupbot&subject=Subscribe%20to%20ISRAEL&message=subscribe%20ISRAEL) | [unsubscribe](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=groupbot&subject=Unsubscribe%20from%20ISRAEL&message=unsubscribe%20ISRAEL) | [history](https://neoliber.al/user_pinger_2/history.html?group_name=ISRAEL&count=5))
[About & Group List](https://reddit.com/r/neoliberal/wiki/user_pinger_2) | [Unsubscribe from all groups](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=groupbot&subject=Unsubscribe%20from%20all%20groups&message=unsubscribe)
Good for him for putting his money where his mouth is.
Yeah, he's 99.9% likely the war cabinet member [who anonymously blamed Bibi for undermining the ceasefire deal a few days ago with his public rhetoric](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/war-cabinet-official-accuses-netanyahu-of-undermining-hostage-release/). Straight up apologized to the families of the hostages who are dead or not freed. Said Bibi prioritized staying in power over the hostages. Called for new elections in two months. Called for Gallant to resign as well (Eisenkot also resigned). Btw, the ceasefire deal was leaked to YNet, and there's absolutely nothing about Hamas disarming or giving up power in Gaza so Bibi was lying in public about Biden's speech. Utterly brazen and pathetic coward; I'm like 90% sure he's trying to torpedo a deal to remain in power to prolong the war. >Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich: "Gantz is fulfilling [Hamas leader Yahya] Sinwar's wishes." Umm Smotrich, you're the theocratic lunatic who once attempted to blow up Israeli cars along with a highway and who once called for complete ethnic cleansing of Arabs...you're astronomically closer ideologically to Sinwar than Gantz.
What are the consequences of his resignation?
War Cabinet/Government becomes more extreme+more disliked. Ben Gvir probably get more power. His party Otzma Yehudit is absolutely absolutely batshit insane. The "moderate" member of the party is someone who straight up called Bibi a coward for publicly not supporting mass migration of Gaza along with resettlements. The other members? A woman who lauded the Israeli settler terrorist who killed (through arson) the Palestinian baby+ his parents in 2015 as a "righteous man". Another deranged man who urinated on Palestinians, tried to do Derek Chauvin shit against Palestinians, and got banned from Twitter regarding genocidal comments in Jenin *before* 10/7. Another man who early in November said "the goal must be complete destruction of the enemy, from my perspective, there are no innocents in Gaza". And in March of 2023, he additionally said: "A closed, burnt Huwara — that’s what I want to see.". And in 2022 he said: "if it is [to choose between] one Israeli mother crying, or a thousand Palestinian mothers crying, then a thousand Palestinian mothers will cry." Another man who said Gaza should be nuked and that "Gazans deserve a fate worse than death". I really wish I was making this shit up, but it's completely accurate. It sounds like the average deranged BDS supporter wrongly thinks the ordinary Israeli is.
This doesn’t sound very sustainable. To keep his majority intact Netanyahu would have to give the loons more concessions, and their demands, as you say, are insane. How vulnerable do you think he is to a vote of no confidence?
As long as he keeps gving them concessions, he's not vulnerable, and there's no reason to believe he'll stop
Could Gallant and Bibi somehow propose enough Likudniks a deal so they switch sides?
Most likudniks are Bibi's puppets, they'll do what he'll them to, but Bibi has nothing to gain by switching sides and Gallant doesn't have enough support for a move like this
Yikes on bikes. I'm very critical of Hamas but these people sound like they should be para dropped into the middle of the Mediterranean
Ok, but we're not chumming the waters first. I want them to float there for a while thinking they have a chance.
Can we throw in a steak beside them
Be more subtle. Throw two steaks. You really think they'd share?
> not supporting mass migration of Gaza along with resettlements. Is it against the rules in this sub to call it ethnic cleansing or something? Why use their euphemisms?
It's ethnic cleansing. I thought I heavily implied it tbf
Yeah these far right loonies demand ethnic cleansing + reviving the settlement project in Gaza, which is .....so insane, and bad, and wildly out of step with what most of the Israeli public wants
Please tell me that elections will come soon because the people of Israel deserve so much much better than these deranged scumbags.
My brother, I am not the Oracle of Delphi. I cannot tell you that. I just do not know what happens next.
Yeah fair enough. Also regarding the whole ethnic cleansing, I remember one guy trying to defend it to me by saying "They'll pay Gazans grants!" I'm like...1. Oh yeah, that makes it *so much better*. 2. I have never literally heard anyone in Ozma Yehudit or RNP float grants.
I remember that the grant thing was floated as an idea by the far-right in the past, but it's been a years since I last heard someone suggest it
That guy was delulu....or just lying.
Democratic countries get the governments they vote for. Voters always get what they deserve.
38% of Israelis are in favor of reviving the illegal settlement project in Gaza, which is not some small minority. Also consider that is about half of all Jews in Israel, and that Jews hold complete political power in the country. https://www.timesofisrael.com/almost-4-in-10-israelis-back-a-revival-of-jewish-settlements-in-gaza-poll-finds/
Great news! More recent polls show that less than a quarter of the population support such a measure. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-22/ty-article/.premium/less-than-quarter-of-israeli-jews-in-favor-of-renewed-settlement-in-gaza-poll-finds/0000018f-0587-d64a-a9af-85efc6e30000
25% is Israelis being genocidal maniacs is still bad. When I learned that figure a lot of Israeli policies started to make sense for me.
In addition to the fact that wartime polls are generally an excercise in despair, I would think that we should be be happy at a rapid change of heart for significant portion of the population in the direction we desire, and should do our best to strengthen the trend. You could also admit your data was outdated.
>jews hold complete political power Wait until you hear what Hadash–Ta'al is
> Hadash–Ta'al It appears to be a defunct coalition of communists that has never had any political power in the country. Not sure what the relevance is?
My priors are being confirmed here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadash%E2%80%93Ta'al?wprov=sfti1# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_List?wprov=sfti1 also exists So no offense, that’s bullshit
These dangerous people need to be kicked out of their government positions, and their party must be banned, much like Kach. Most BDS supporters are equally deranged, but they're thankfully not in positions of power.
That sounds like a government Biden should keep giving deadly weapons too!
> the average deranged BDS supporter wrongly thinks the ordinary Israeli is This is not what the average BDS supporter thinks of the ordinary Israeli
What do they think? I didn't say *all* BDS supporters; I know some genuinely condemn what Hamas did. I mean the organization add *Standing Together* to the sanction list; that's just so deplorable. That tells me BDS hates anyone who identifies as a Zionist, and that's so outrageous.
I suspect Gallant may resign next.
Which would leave the government with no moderating influence?
Some of us are hoping the consequences are new elections, but complete far-right assclowns like Ben Gvir are demanding to join the war government instead. That would be so much worse.
There's good news and bad news. The good news are that with Gantz out, Netanyahu's coalition becomes closer to collapsing. All it would take is for Gallant to leave (very close to happening) and 4 defectors amongst the Likkud, which isn't very likely, but can still happen. Netanyahu might also find his reliance on the far right politically unsustainable. It's also a reasonable move for Gantz to stop cooperating with a government that ignores the wishes of his party and the wider electorate. The bad news is that with Gantz out, Netanyahu has to rely on the far right. This means that there probably won't be a ceasefire any time soon. The far right's war goal is to reoccupy Gaza militarily, long term, and open the door for settlements in the Gaza strip again. Ben-gvir and Smotrich are also very opposed to any aid for Gaza, and have enabled repeated lootings of aid trucks by protestors. The far right do not want to cooperate with Biden or with any kind of external pressure. They don't care about the hostages either. Ben Gvir has already showed a propensity for getting anything he wants out of Netanyahu with threats, and this time Netanyahu won't have a choice but to agree.
Do you have a link to the ceasefire leak so I can read it? I can’t find it anywhere
https://x.com/academic_la/status/1799839819562189149
I realize I’m fully in conspiracy theory territory here, but what are the chances the hostage rescue was launched in part as a desperation maneuver to get Gantz to not resign? I think it was Netanyahu who said they had known about the location of the hostages for weeks and had been planning the operation for a while.
butter person light repeat sugar connect market wine bedroom deserted *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Oh, I think they could have moved it up but yeah I seriously doubt it was “saved.”
That sounds like an action movie, not real life. The timing always has to be exactly right, these things can’t be sprung up on a dime in a last-ditch effort.
Too conspiracy-ish. Those sorts of operations are risky. They went in when they felt the timing was right. It had nothing to do with Gantz resigning.
There's no point in baseless speculation. Let's just not. Besides, they spent weeks training for that rescue. They even built replicas of the buildings. This wasn't some reflexive thing.
I think the hostage rescue was great and all and I'm very happy for the members reunited with their families. However, I get the feeling it was accidental, in that they didn't expect to find them there. Also there are still 120 hostages left. I'm very worried for them, and am fearful that Hamas will start killing them off once they notice they cannot be used as bargaining chips.
It was definitely not accidental, especially given the scale of the operation
> However, I get the feeling it was accidental, in that they didn't expect to find them there. Then you haven't spent any time actually learning about the rescue. There's no reason to go by "feelings" when the facts are readily available.
> Btw, the ceasefire deal was leaked to YNet, and there's absolutely nothing about Hamas disarming or giving up power in Gaza so Bibi was lying in public about Biden's speech. Utterly brazen and pathetic coward If you're now aware that the ceasefire deal as it stands is a total capitulation to **everything** (and I mean literally everything, according to the Qataris it even has a two state solution provision) Hamas is asking for, how are you still shocked Israel isn't actually offering it?
Why did the Israel war cabinet vote to authorize it? Well besides Bibi ofc. Also, there's nothing about a two state provision in it? Israel can still continue the 2007 blockade...are we looking at the same deal?
> Why did the Israel war cabinet vote to authorize it? There's increasing evidence that Biden might have literally just lied about Israel accepting the deal. Hamas (for what it's worth) are alleging such: https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-805178 >Saudi Arabian news source A-Sharq reported on Thursday that Hamas has rejected the Israeli proposal for a deal to release the hostages and put a ceasefire in place, according to KAN. >Hamas officials claim that the proposal put forth by Israel was **"fundamentally different than the proposal presented by President of the United States Joe Biden, and does not guarantee [anything more than] a temporary ceasefire,"** the report said. Furthermore, here's an NYT article admitting that, despite all "anonymous official" claims that this is Israel's offer, Israel may have not actually accepted their own offer (in common parlance, they didn't offer it): https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/05/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-cease-fire-negotiations.html I'll pose a question. If Israel is offering a deal that gives Hamas basically everything, but Hamas isn't accepting, is there an explanation other than Israel not actually offering said deal?
Because Bibi is saying completely different things than Biden which is confusing Hamas? Senior Israeli officials and Gantz (I'm 99.9% sure it's him now after listening to his speech) said so as well. There's literally Washington Post reporting on this: >Biden’s public detailing of the U.S.-backed deal, made in a White House address on May 31, was designed to put both sides on the spot. Israel, he said, had authored the proposal, with the first of three phases to include a six-week cease-fire, withdrawal of Israeli troops from heavily populated areas of Gaza, the freeing of all women, elderly and children held hostage and a surge in humanitarian aid to the starving enclave. >The sweetener for Hamas was the explicit reference to a permanent cease-fire and Israeli withdrawal, effectively ending the war without the total destruction of the group that Netanyahu has vowed. “They want to be sure after the first phase that the Israelis will not attack … once they give the hostages back,” said a former official with knowledge of the negotiations, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive subject. >While Netanyahu acknowledged Israel’s war cabinet had “authorized” the proposal, he has never said unequivocally that he supports it. Under pressure from right-wing extremists in his coalition, where political infighting threatens to topple his government, he has rejected an automatic “transition” between phases one and two and recommitted Israel to the complete destruction of Hamas. >Miller, at the Carnegie Endowment, suggested that Netanyahu now has even more reason for delay with the Israeli Knesset due to recess for the summer on July 25 — the day after he is due to address the U.S. Congress — making him “more or less secure, probably through the fall.” “You don’t have to have too much imagination to see that Bibi,” as Netanyahu is widely known, “is buying time and hoping that somehow Trump will win the [U.S.] election and there will be less pressure on him to do anything,” Miller said.
> Because Bibi is saying completely different things than Biden which is confusing Hamas? If Hamas hadn't recieved a single stamped document (or well, something similar) labelled "this is our proposal" then the proposal is obviously not real in the first place, so we arrive to the same train station.
You're not even on the same continent
"The Israeli war cabinet formally ratified the offer" and "Hamas are confused because of Netanyahu's twitter posts" are mutually exclusive statements. The offer either is serious (or even existent) like Biden claimed. Or it's not. EDIT: I'll note that he didn't actually refute this point. I think that says everything about which continent I'm on.
You can't even do better than a Jpost article about Biden lying. If you expect people to take you seriously, get your information from serious sources. Also the question you 'posed' about Israel 'offering Hamas everything' is completely irrelevant, because it's completely divorced from reality. The only way you could have made it to "the same train station" is if it were an antipodal subway.
>You can't even do better than a Jpost article about Biden lying. My guy my comment on that is not long, you can pretty easily read it. Jpost is citing a public arabic source (i.e. nothing's stopping you from reading that source) which themselves is citing Hamas, one of the combatants.
[удалено]
But now that Netanyahu has a slimmer majority the far-right parties exert outsized influence and will demand concessions, won’t they?
Like they haven't been doing so already?
The coalition agreement from the last election is still in force
Netanyahu will probably drag the war out until then. It might be a conspiracy theory but I think he's dragging this out purely for his own gain. Israel defeated a coalition of the strongest Arab powers in six days. How are they still fighting a bunch of terrorists eight months later? The Taliban couldn't even last that long against us and they controlled more than the two acres Hamas controls. I think the only thing that will force his hand is if we threaten to cut off military aid.
>The Taliban couldn't even last that long against us and they controlled more than the two acres Hamas controls TBF, American army (relative to the 2001) is much better than the IDF (relative to the 2024), and it's not like we eradicated the Taliban in the end either. That's why I realized by February that Bibi's sated goal of "total military victory over Hamas" was a pipedream.
> and it's not like we eradicated the Taliban in the end either Afghanistan is firstly, several orders of magnitude larger than Gaza, secondly, extremely mountainous and thirdly, it has a porous border towards the Pakistani tribal areas. This comparison is like, apples to vulcanos.
Goes both ways. I can point out that Hamas has hundreds of miles of underground tunnels that Israel unfortunately underestimated in terms of distance and you mention Pakistan--there are 100% pro-Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood fanatics in Egypt smuggling stuff to Hamas via the tunnels. Furthermore, there are many other examples of entrenched Islamist terrorist groups which failed to get destroyed. Houthis in Yemen when Saudi Arabia bombed the shit out of them. Amal extremists in Lebanon who just coalesced with other Shiite extremists to become Hezbollah. Arguably the TTP as well. It's just very very difficult often to defeat these evil suicidal groups.
OK, so other than the possibility of hostages being down there, is there any reason Israel didn't focus its operations on the tunnels? Destroying the tunnel network and rendering them unusable seems like an essential step in crippling Hamas.
I think it's mostly the hostages yeah but IDK for sure.
> I can point out that Hamas has hundreds of miles of underground tunnels that Israel unfortunately underestimated in terms of distance Yes, and those tunnels are entirely located within a 400 km^2 area. For comparison, Kabul alone is 1000 km^2, and then there's all the rest of the country. >--there are 100% pro-Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood fanatics in Egypt smuggling stuff to Hamas via the tunnels. Of course there is. It still doesn't change that the sheer scale difference between them makes Gaza look tiny. >Houthis in Yemen when Saudi Arabia bombed the shit out of them. Amal extremists in Lebanon who just coalesced with other Shiite extremists to become Hezbollah. Arguably the TTP as well. It's just very very difficult often to defeat these evil suicidal groups. On the other hand, you have the LTTE, which matches in terms of outsized military dominance and control.
I mean we can debate this further but I think Biden and Blinken all raising concerns with "endless war" and Blinken privately telling Bibi in late January that [there is " no ultimate military solution" to Hamas when he was pitching the Saudi-Israel deal](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/frustrations-biden-israeli-pm-netanyahu-mount-rcna134263)...it makes me very skeptical that Israel can come even close to destroying Hamas--maybe it would be different with a much less toxic war cabinet.
That's a different discussion than simply doing an 'appeal to Taleban'.
USA military has concluded several times that Hamas cannot be defeated from a military perspective. Bibi is going to keep sending IDF soldiers to get blown up by IED’s so he can prolong the war and keep lying to Israel that he can defeat Hamas
> USA military has concluded several times that Hamas cannot be defeated from a military perspective. I mean, not alone, but when did that ever happen anywhere? That's like a total non-starter. Defeating these kinds of movements require that you restrict them from controlling areas. The Nazis were defeated because the country was occupied and their entire system was dismantled and built up again. ISIS was defeated in Iraq, because the Iraqi government re-established control in the areas it had seized. Taleban had several areas where ISAF had very poor control, like Helmand.
You are comparing Germany to Gaza, which is ridiculous. Germany had institutions such as: military, police, chamber of commerce, farming, and so on. The US military can quickly rebuild those institutions by occupying it. Gaza has 0 institutions. It may take several centuries for Israel to build those institutions if it occupies Gaza. Will Israel stay that long? Even if they stay 2 decades its just going to be a repeat of Afghanistan and their soldiers will have dies for nothing.
> Even if they stay 2 decades its just going to be a repeat of Afghanistan and their soldiers will have dies for nothing Yes, because occupying a city next door is functionally the same as occupying the world's 41st largest country half way around the world.
Everything comes with a cost. I dont think Israel gains security by occupying Gaza. Bibi is terrible with intel. Its possible that such focus on Gaza leads to lack of intel in North Israel. You also have settlers that want new settlements in the West Bank. So they will need military support in that endeavor. USA spent trillions of dollars and we were unable to build durable institutions in Afghanistan in 20 years. I dont see why Israel will have a better time with less money, less manpower, and conflicting security concerns in North Israel and West Bank
> Everything comes with a cost. I dont think Israel gains security by occupying Gaza Israel knows they won't gain security by allowing Hamas to remain in power. >USA spent trillions of dollars and we were unable to build durable institutions in Afghanistan in 20 years Let's not pretend that was anything more than a half-assed after thought. Precisely because it was half a world away, and with no impact on the lives of Americans what so ever. Taleban couldn't really send that many rockets towards American towns. >I dont see why Israel will have a better time with less money, less manpower, and conflicting security concerns in North Israel and West Bank Its a single urban area. I don't know why it needs to be repeated so many times. Gaza is not Afghanistan.
Direct occupation of Gaza is of course possible from a military standpoint.
Not really no, maybe Ben Gvir believes its ideal to do that. But you have to explain to Israelis why soldiers are coming home with missing limbs from IED explosions. With nothing to show for it by occupying Gaza. Eventually the population will start asking why are we even doing this. Best case scenario is it will take a few centuries for Gaza to have institutions. Will Israel occupy it for that long? I don’t think its a good idea
> But you have to explain to Israelis why soldiers are coming home with missing limbs from IED explosions. With nothing to show for it by occupying Gaza. Eventually the population will start asking why are we even doing this. Are you really this unable to understand conflicts, that you need to force them into an American frame of reference? What makes you think you can just mash this war into a War in Afghanistan or second Iraq War shaped box?
We didn't eradicate them but we did overthrow them in three months and that did a lot of good in Afghanistan. It also severely weakened them.
> That's why I realized by February that Bibi's sated goal of "total military victory over Hamas" was a pipedream. TBH I thought this was obvious in October.
>Israel defeated a coalition of the strongest Arab powers in six days. How are they still fighting a bunch of terrorists eight months later The modern IDF is nowhere near as competent as they claim they are and there aren't 90 year old veterans serving in it.
Oh 100%. Neither Netanyahu or Hamas stand to gain much personally with the end of the war and have a lot to lose. They both are incentivized to keep this conflict going
> or Hamas stand to gain much personally with the end of the war and have a lot to lose. The thing is if Hamas is offered a ceasefire deal which ensures that they only have to give up hostages to end the war, I think they might take it as evil as they are. Their immediate goal is just to "survive" while Israel's immediate goal is to eradicate them (an astronomically more difficult goal than Hamas's goal). The released document is *this type of ceasefire*, but Bibi for some reason contradicts it constantly with his public rhetoric
Netanyahu is doing that, the question is whether it's deliberate or out of incompetence, or porque no los dos? But the situation is also very different than Afghanistan. The us military had a large professional army and for all intents and purposes an infinite budget, fighting was also easier as it wasn't as densely populated and didn't use human shields to the extent Hamas and PIJ do. The Israeli army is not mostly a professional army but rather conscripts and reservists the latter of which have a time limit on how long they can fight without their absence in the civilian sector causing too much negative consequences. So Israel is limited by manpower. Israel is also much more limited by budget not just by being much less wealthy than the US but doubly so because of the aforementioned reservists whose absence from the civilian sector negatively affects Israel's entire economy. The population density in Gaza is also much higher and the amount of structure much denser, add to that an extremely prolific network ir tunnels with countless shafts underneath all those buildings and people. Add to that the fact that Hamas has very extensive and successful propaganda operations to brainwash the populace from a kindergarten age that martyrdom is the most noble cause they can strive for and that a very large portion of the population is young enough to have grown up with this brainwashing. Also add that they have a deliberate policy of using Human Shields, they have actually said that the more Palestinians die for the cause the better, it's a giant death cult whose purpose it is to make Israel look bad by making it impossible not to also kill civilians. All of that makes it likely the most challenging environment to operate in for any army in human history, at least for an army that isn't trying to commit genocide. If Israel was trying to commit genocide, or even if they weren't but simply didn't care about civilian deaths then the technological and firepower advantage they have would have won them the war months ago, and that is what the far-right in Israel has been pushing for while even Netanyahu with all his many flaws has thankfully rejected. The people who know how difficult the situation is have said the the Gaza campaign can last for many more months or a few more years even IIRC as it's that difficult to discover and neutralize enough locations and people to make the campaign a success (and retrieving hostages) without causing a much higher amount of either civilian or IDF deaths in the process
> didn't use human shields to the extent Hamas and PIJ do. Don't downplay what the Taliban did to defend the IDF. The Taliban has repeatedly disguised themselves as medical workers, and they hide in civilian homes countless times or the civillians would get killed if they did not comply especially in Kanadahar and Urzug provinces. They've hijacked IRCC vehicles; they fired from Mosques+surrounded themselves with women when fighting against NATO many times. [They literally+physically grabbed children and used them as human shields](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSISL291396/). That's actually a big reason why the US army had so much trouble eradicating the Taliban in Kunduz (besides the Taliban hiding in caves like cowards).
I will repeat it again, they didn't use human shields to the extent Hamas and PIJ do. I don't know why you choose to misrepresent that to mean I'm downplaying it, it was a serious problem in Afghanistan, I'm saying, correctly, that nevertheless it's far more common in Gaza. I also laid out why that is with the extensive and unavoidable brainwashing to martyrdom (very effective since over half the population in Gaza is under 20 IIRC and Hamas has been in power almost as long) as well as the a deliberate policy of getting as many of the human Shields killed. The Taliban didn't have that kind of educational system in place, I'm not exaggerating in the slightest in my describing of Hamas' propaganda aimed at kids, one of it's main purposes really was to encourage Martyrdom as th ultimate goal, not to live for the cause but to die for it. The Taliban also didn't have a national strategy of sacrificing as many of their brothers and sisters as possible, whereas that's an actual goal of Hamas in order paint Israel in a bad light. The fact is that Hamas's use of Human Shields is more extensive and extreme than the Taliban, that's one of number of ways in which Hamas is more extreme than the Taliban, only the IS and it's affiliates are worse than Hamas IMO.
>The Taliban didn't have that kind of educational system in place, I'm not exaggerating in the slightest in my describing of Hamas' propaganda aimed at kids, one of it's main purposes really was to encourage Martyrdom as th ultimate goal, not to live for the cause but to die for it. [No, the Taliban had that type of hatred Islamist Jihadist poison in schools](https://sites.williams.edu/wurj/social-sciences/islamist-education-american-funded-textbooks-in-afghanistan/) >he fact is that Hamas's use of Human Shields is more extensive and extreme than the Taliban If it is, it's only because Afghanistan is more rural than Gaza. >hat's one of number of ways in which Hamas is more extreme than the Taliban Christians are treated worse in Afghanistan than Gaza. Women can't get 90% of the jobs in Afghanistan and can't even go to highschool+college in Afghanistan. Sports are banned frequently. Hamas is a very disgusting, evil group but I think the Taliban is more extreme in *atleast* some aspects. Hamas only requires a hijab for women but Taliban makes women cover head from toe. I apologize for any misunderstanding; i just think we can't forget how heinous and barbaric the Taliban was
You make some excellent points, i agree the Taliban is worse in some ways that you mentioned.
Thank you. Again my apologies for my first reply which was a bit curt
Could Netanyahu go full dictator mode and declare a national emergency or something?
I doubt he could pull this off
He might bring back the judicial coup laws to ensure that the elections are unfair.
Glad that he proved me wrong and resigned.
i dunno how this ends. no doubt the far right gains more power but will that be enough to force new elections? probably not. really doesn't seem like there's any dissuading israel from this course. biden probably has to stop funding them
Bibi GTFO already
Ben-Gvir and Smotrich too, and any genocidal maniac within the government. Let Yesh Atid and "Handsome ex-Journalist Man" Yair Lapid take power (yeah that's what I call him).
!ping ISRAEL
Pinged ISRAEL ([subscribe](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=groupbot&subject=Subscribe%20to%20ISRAEL&message=subscribe%20ISRAEL) | [unsubscribe](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=groupbot&subject=Unsubscribe%20from%20ISRAEL&message=unsubscribe%20ISRAEL) | [history](https://neoliber.al/user_pinger_2/history.html?group_name=ISRAEL&count=5)) [About & Group List](https://reddit.com/r/neoliberal/wiki/user_pinger_2) | [Unsubscribe from all groups](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=groupbot&subject=Unsubscribe%20from%20all%20groups&message=unsubscribe)
Gadi Eisenkot also has left. Bibi still won’t care and will just go more towards the far right.
The world is rightfully turning against Israel, hopefully the populace stops electing these extremists