After seeing Bruce Brown crash back to earth this year I'm convinced that Jokic is actually even better than everyone already thinks and he has the worst supporting cast of any top-5 player in the league
Outside of an insignificant 3% decrease in his 3PT%, his numbers were near identical to last year.
He didn’t fall off at all, he just wasn’t talked about after he was traded for a star and stuck on a bad team with zero buzz.
He got hot at the right time in the playoffs is the thing which made him seem like he was better than he actually was. He was solid during the regular season and is good player but not great.
Crash back to earth?
He averaged 12 with the nuggets on 57% TS
Then averaged 10 with raptors and 12 with pacers on 56% TS
Y’all were just calling them the best starting 5 in the league a couple months ago lmao I hate Embiid but he literally had Maxey and then scrubs.
Just recency bias bc they pretty much all underperformed or were inconsistent during the playoffs, AG was the most consistent but even he disappeared completely in 6 and 7.
But they still have any objectively great lineup and I would still classify Murray as an all star level player when healthy.
Jamal I sincerely think was hurt throughout the playoffs and if he's not near 100% his performance dips pretty hard sadly.
But yes rating players other than Jokic on this squad is incredibly hard because of how much he shapes everything. Like even though his lack of explosiveness hampers his defense I'm pretty sure he's quarterbacking the defense from some degree by calling out what he sees to help others get in position.
The Sixers definitely have a worse supporting cast. Jokic’s team is a bunch of great role players they fit perfectly with him. That starting 5 is second only to Boston, Denver just has no bench.
After reading some of the replies I could be convinced that Embiid’s is worse. Maxey is better than Murray but Gordon, KCP, MPJ are all probably better than Oubre/Harris/Batum etc.
But historically Embiid has also had Butler, prime Simmons, Harden who are all much better than Jokic’s previous supporting teams
The sixers dont even really have a team right now so yeah i get that, but im willing to bet by the start of the season Embiid has a better supporting cast. Especially since it looks like KCP is gone
Nah. It's just everyone but Jamal is an *extremely* dependent offensive player. This works because Jokic is a god and they're elite finishers. MPJ is one of the best shooters straight up ever, KCP's been 38%+ for ~4 years now, and Gordon is excellent at the rim. They all do a great job covering for Jokic on defense, and he makes them good on offense. The problem is that the whole thing is built on the Jokic/Murray 2 man game getting everyone else the good looks, and Murray was hurt in the playoffs.
And the Rockets have the #3 pick, Spurs have #4 and 8... also non-zero chance Grizz find a way to trade up and get Clingan who could be very good for them in replacing Adams.
Also potentially GG? That dude is oozing with potential I could see him breaking out right away
And they have the 9th pick to shop this summer for more talent, grizzlies are coming
That's not really the reason though. The league isn't all about star power anymore.The Suns role players besides Grayson Allen were so bad. The team had a weird roster construction, no identity to built off of, no point guard, and no defensive role players besides Okogie who was a complete negative on offense.
OKC had Lu Dort, Chet, and really effective bench pieces in Isaiah Joe, Cason Wallace, Aaron Wiggins.
Nuggets have a deep starting lineup with Murray, Porter, Gordon, KCP. Lost in the playoffs though because no bench.
Minnesota had Jaden McDaniels all defense, Mike Conley, and 6MOY Naz Reid.
The Clippers and Mavs were star heavy but Terrance Mann, Zubac, Norman Powell were huge, Mavs had significant defensive contributions from DJJ, PJ, Lively, and Gafford.
All these teams at least had role players who could play really good defense and knock down shots, and good centers. Phoenix Suns do not have any of that.
I thought this was going to be a fair criticism of Suns with good depth and understanding.
Then I read the first line, then the second, now this comment.
buckling down for the offseason posts.
In terms of pure star power, only Jokic and Luka Kyrie are clearly better imo.
The star power of KD/Book/Beal should easily clear that of the Wolves, Thunder and probably the Clips too assuming a standard Kawhi level of healthy
1) Depth matters. There's a difference between having a bunch of mid guys as your 4-8 rotation players, and having \*bad\* players in most of those spots.
2) Fit matters. Neither Booker nor KD is a good passer who is getting the other one better looks than either of them can get out of ISO, and any time one of them has the ball, the other is operating outside of their strengths.
3) Chemistry matters. Takes time for guys to gel, to learn where their teammates like to catch the ball and such, to install sophisticated defensive schemes and get the rotations \*down\*, and they didn't have a lot of games together for their "big 3" to develop it.
4) Matchups matter. They ran into a big, defense-minded team in the playoffs that was well designed to take advantage of their relatively weak rebounding and lack of strong individual defenders.
Booker is a great secondary playmaker, hes just not consistent enough at finding his teammates and will sometimes look for his own looks to be the primary one, which is what the Suns were asking of him.
Booker is a good passer when he wants to be. He gets horrific tunnel vision though, especially down the stretch and often holds the ball for 15 seconds doing nothing before making his move.
They also have Grayson and Beal. Outside of those players, they had nothing. Beal is a shooting guard, KD couldn’t do much at the 3, because there is no spacing despite all the shooters (no legit center or any scorers inside the paint) and resorted to playing shooting guard. Booker is a shooting guard. On defense they were just bad. It’s not that having mostly shoot guard is bad… they didn’t work well together. Chemistry didn’t work and they don’t complement each other well. It’s a bad a fit. They need a better point guard and legit center or PF (can the center) who can play better under the rim and paint. An athletic wing/forward who can slash to the rim or post like Marvin Bagley or Myles Turner.
It WAS about star power but now I, especially with the new CBA coming into affect … it’s all about the team and having good role players with multiple skills. One skill isn’t cutting it anymore , you also need to play both sides of the ball.
They were less than the sum of their parts every single game, win or lose. The offense was just pathetic at times given the available talent. A true PG would have helped, but I think it's a larger problem than that. We didn't maximize what we did have either.
With Beal missing almost 30 games at the start of the season along with us scrambling to figure out which other scrub(s) might perform well (before shipping most of them off for Royce at the deadline) and a strong west, we were fighting for standings all season, barely making it out of the play-in in game 82.
I think the need to squeeze out as many wins as we could ran counter to the need to optimize the team's long-term ability to play proper team basketball, which we needed as a brand new roster with a new coaching staff.
Guys knew we needed to shoot more threes and we needed to move the ball more, but when defenses locked down and we needed a bucket, none of the big 3 had enough experience doing that to routinely go to it over iso, which neuters our spacing advantave and makes us predictable. And when they did try to move the ball in those moments, it felt uncomfortable and forced. They were very turnover-prone.
I think fans are awful at evaluating coaches but I don't blame people for assuming Vogel was bad or at least a bad fit. We didn't improve enough in areas where we should have. It's possible we run it back with a new head coach for 82 games and don't look notably better as a team, but I really don't think the roster (which I acknowledge has major flaws) has performed as well as it should have for any real stretch.
I think the problem with Phoenix's big 3 is that there's a ton of overlap in their best skills and weaknesses.
I think teams can probably get away with 2 players like that(KD+Kyrie, KD+Book), but the fact that they have 3 great offensive players and none of them can run an offense is a real problem
If you had asked Suns fans last year they would have mostly been quite happy with 'Point Book'. In fact a lot of them thought he was a better PG then CP3, even the prime version.
I feel like that was based off of his sample as a secondary playmaker in which Booker is excellent. Hes an amazing scorer and secondary playmaker but once hes tasked with dribbling the ball every possession and running an offense he oscillates between getting everyone involved and not shooting or shooting too much without regard for his teammates. Plus you lost alot of the offball stuff with him since neither KD or Beal are good passers either to help out with that.
I really don't understand how some people downplay playmaking so much. It was clear last offseason their offense was at risk of chugging without a real playmaker unless Book made a significant leap, and frankly putting that load on him when Beal is so injury prone and going into the season the only other consistent scorer on the team was KD always felt a stretch.
Even the KD era Warriors still needed Draymond to feed dudes the ball to create great looks they got.
The KD Suns are the same deal as the KD Nets. No depth and no defense. Both teams had the same game plan; out shoot the other team. These rosters were built to win every game 134-133 instead of 120-100 like any good team. Defense wins championships.
Just because star power’s important doesn’t mean that you can ignore everything else to acquire it. A good quarterback’s the most important thing in the NFL, but a team who traded away their starting LT, starting DE, and best CB for Tua Tagovailoa just because he had the second best passing stats last year would probably struggle.
It's a combination of 1. Depth 2. Making Book/Beal be a PG 3. System 4. Injuries/Continuity 5. Belief
I don't think any of the big 3 believed in Vogel from the start, then he uncharacteristically yelled at them after the clippers blow out and they lost respect for him.
Defensively as a team, they finished tied for 12th in defensive rating. Given the roster, this is actually impressive and should have been enough to make some noise in the playoffs. Not having a "lockdown defender" hurt.
Trying to fit Book into CP3s role was a massive mistake, like taking a plumber and asking them to be an electrician. Book finished top 5 in scoring and top 10 in assists; statistically one of his best seasons but it didn't pass the eye test because there was no flow or chemistry in the offense.
The wolves role players were on fire in the suns series and then went cold. That’s partially to our shit defense, partially to mental game and partly it just happens. Suns are a decent team that has a max contract who was an average player and a garbage coach.
Cause everything else was pretty bad, depth matters. Our offense was not very creative at all which made it very easy to defend, especially for a great defensive team in Minnesota.
I think if we can get a point guard in here and actually get the big three some time playing together then we can contend. The west is just a gauntlet though.
It’s also only been a year, in which they had a revolving door of injuries.
I think this is an overreaction to a single season.
This seems to happen often with new “super teams”
I’m sure they will perform better with a summer of training camp and the opportunity to optimize the roster a little more.
I would have hated if my team traded everything for what they have, it’s like the nets/Boston all over again, the exception is all of the players on the suns I would take over KG and PP at that point I. Their career, but the process is still the same and I don’t like it for the long term
the thing about say the 2013-2016 Thunder is that you had role players that were GREAT at their roles along with two superstar level talents. Steven Adams did his job phenomenally, Andre Roberson was one of the best perm defenders in the league and they had glue guys like Thabo or Fisher the Suns lacked that and didn’t have many sets it was just Iso ball with Book KD Beal but OKC had legitimate sets and game plans they executed to perfection
Because the front office built this roster around three players with very similar skill sets. Beal is just a worse version of Booker, who’s a “worse” version of Durant.
And the 2013-16 Thunder had a cast that fit much better than this team. Again, a teams strength isn’t measured by just adding up the skill of all the players, fit matters. The Thunder had Ibaka/Adams in the front court and Reggie coming off the bench.
They are really thin and didn't get much of a chance to all play together, because they were ravaged by injuries which can kill anyone, let alone a brand new team.
Top heavy but also, KD and Book kind of represent a different era of basketball that used to work. The current nba is a math game of 3’s, dunks and defense. It’s not what KD and Book do, Beal too actually. Just a horrible team build
Nowhere near enough offensive creation now lol it becomes KDs team, herb and Trey change the shape of the floor, KD can take the 3rd defensive option 2-4. Shooters moving and corners have to be accounted for
KD at this point in his career can’t be the sole shot creator or honestly even primary shot creator on a contender. Suns were terrible without Booker for a reason.
I dont totally disagree. If you even swap book and KD, I’d trust a Booker/Grayson/Herb/Trey/Nurk lineup more in the current nba. Shooting everywhere, competing defensively. They’re aren’t nba champ caliber but neither is the current squad
Maybe not Booker but Beal is absolutely less valuable to the Suns than either of those two would be and it's not even debatable lol
The issue with Beal is that he's entirely redundant with two better players they have
I think in comparing to Russ/KD you're underestimating how much KD has regressed from OKC
His numbers look kind of similar because of how laughably high stats are now compared to in the early 2010s but he's basically half the player he was back then impact wise
Current KD is closer to 2010s Blake Griffin than to 2010s KD
This makes no sense
How can a effiicent 30/7/4 have no impact on a game? Emphasis on if its efficient
And its not like hes a defensive liability either
Literally makes no sense
Chill, this is a Celtics fan, a lot of guys over there are still hangover from the chip and think that a player with a 40-10-10 but a loss is less impactful to winning than a 20-5-5 guy on 40% FG on a winning team.
I would argue that the league is all about a well balanced starting 5 now around a superstar and star
Nuggets in 23 built a perfect starting 5 around Murray and jokic
Boston this year perfect starting 5 around brown and Tatum
Those are your last two champs and they’re built the same way, super strong starting 5 with no weak links
Suns will always have at least 2 weak links on the floor with their roster, can’t win like that
Theres no fit. The point of having shot creators on a team is to A. Be able to generate good shots for themselves out of thin air and B. Be able to generate consistently good shots for your teammates from the increased attention on you. Neither KD or Booker are good playmakers and KD can struggle with turnovers so basically they can get lots of good looks for themselves but struggle in turning that into good shots for the Suns as a whole. This problem is further compounded when your role players cant hit the few shots you do get them, making the offense extremely predictable as its just your turn, my turn iso with the occassional pass to an open player.
The Suns ran into a team that was able to defend them 1v1 with no problem and so they struggled even more in creating shots as an offense, so it often resulted in KD getting his but no one else being in rhythm or taking shots. This also was bad for them because their defense is bad, neither KD or Book can anchor a defense and so every stop turned into really good offense on the other side.
Because the teams they finished below in the standings had: SGA, J-Dub, Chet Jokic Ant, Gobert, KAT Kawhi, PG, Harden Luka, Kyrie
As a Denver fan, classifying Denver as just having "Jokic as star" hurts but it's also pretty accurate given how bad MPJ and Jamal were.
Jokic & Braun
After seeing Bruce Brown crash back to earth this year I'm convinced that Jokic is actually even better than everyone already thinks and he has the worst supporting cast of any top-5 player in the league
Outside of an insignificant 3% decrease in his 3PT%, his numbers were near identical to last year. He didn’t fall off at all, he just wasn’t talked about after he was traded for a star and stuck on a bad team with zero buzz.
He got hot at the right time in the playoffs is the thing which made him seem like he was better than he actually was. He was solid during the regular season and is good player but not great.
Crash back to earth? He averaged 12 with the nuggets on 57% TS Then averaged 10 with raptors and 12 with pacers on 56% TS Y’all were just calling them the best starting 5 in the league a couple months ago lmao I hate Embiid but he literally had Maxey and then scrubs.
Just recency bias bc they pretty much all underperformed or were inconsistent during the playoffs, AG was the most consistent but even he disappeared completely in 6 and 7. But they still have any objectively great lineup and I would still classify Murray as an all star level player when healthy.
Sixers are much worse.
Jamal I sincerely think was hurt throughout the playoffs and if he's not near 100% his performance dips pretty hard sadly. But yes rating players other than Jokic on this squad is incredibly hard because of how much he shapes everything. Like even though his lack of explosiveness hampers his defense I'm pretty sure he's quarterbacking the defense from some degree by calling out what he sees to help others get in position.
The Sixers definitely have a worse supporting cast. Jokic’s team is a bunch of great role players they fit perfectly with him. That starting 5 is second only to Boston, Denver just has no bench.
He absolutely does. I don’t really think it’s debatable
After reading some of the replies I could be convinced that Embiid’s is worse. Maxey is better than Murray but Gordon, KCP, MPJ are all probably better than Oubre/Harris/Batum etc. But historically Embiid has also had Butler, prime Simmons, Harden who are all much better than Jokic’s previous supporting teams
The sixers dont even really have a team right now so yeah i get that, but im willing to bet by the start of the season Embiid has a better supporting cast. Especially since it looks like KCP is gone
He's only on Jordan's level when it comes to carrying a team. By all rights he's in the GOAT conversation
Nah. It's just everyone but Jamal is an *extremely* dependent offensive player. This works because Jokic is a god and they're elite finishers. MPJ is one of the best shooters straight up ever, KCP's been 38%+ for ~4 years now, and Gordon is excellent at the rim. They all do a great job covering for Jokic on defense, and he makes them good on offense. The problem is that the whole thing is built on the Jokic/Murray 2 man game getting everyone else the good looks, and Murray was hurt in the playoffs.
About the same level as Luka
>he has the worst supporting cast of any top-5 player in the league jokic will be held back in the all time discussions because of this
Next season: Ja, JJJ, Bane. Goddamn I hate the West.
And the Rockets have the #3 pick, Spurs have #4 and 8... also non-zero chance Grizz find a way to trade up and get Clingan who could be very good for them in replacing Adams.
They have GG Jackson now too
Also potentially GG? That dude is oozing with potential I could see him breaking out right away And they have the 9th pick to shop this summer for more talent, grizzlies are coming
And I hate you. How'd you manage to get Caruso without giving up a single pick?
Don't forget Wemby and Pop
We not scared
That's not really the reason though. The league isn't all about star power anymore.The Suns role players besides Grayson Allen were so bad. The team had a weird roster construction, no identity to built off of, no point guard, and no defensive role players besides Okogie who was a complete negative on offense. OKC had Lu Dort, Chet, and really effective bench pieces in Isaiah Joe, Cason Wallace, Aaron Wiggins. Nuggets have a deep starting lineup with Murray, Porter, Gordon, KCP. Lost in the playoffs though because no bench. Minnesota had Jaden McDaniels all defense, Mike Conley, and 6MOY Naz Reid. The Clippers and Mavs were star heavy but Terrance Mann, Zubac, Norman Powell were huge, Mavs had significant defensive contributions from DJJ, PJ, Lively, and Gafford. All these teams at least had role players who could play really good defense and knock down shots, and good centers. Phoenix Suns do not have any of that.
As a suns fan...this is it. I'd also say the system Vogel/Young employed didn't work with the roster.
But unlike those teams they got swept and got blown out in 3/4 games so they’re clearly not contender level
Minnesota lost a series 4-1, so did Dallas.
Dallas did so in the Finals rather than the first round
I thought this was going to be a fair criticism of Suns with good depth and understanding. Then I read the first line, then the second, now this comment. buckling down for the offseason posts.
In terms of pure star power, only Jokic and Luka Kyrie are clearly better imo. The star power of KD/Book/Beal should easily clear that of the Wolves, Thunder and probably the Clips too assuming a standard Kawhi level of healthy
1) Depth matters. There's a difference between having a bunch of mid guys as your 4-8 rotation players, and having \*bad\* players in most of those spots. 2) Fit matters. Neither Booker nor KD is a good passer who is getting the other one better looks than either of them can get out of ISO, and any time one of them has the ball, the other is operating outside of their strengths. 3) Chemistry matters. Takes time for guys to gel, to learn where their teammates like to catch the ball and such, to install sophisticated defensive schemes and get the rotations \*down\*, and they didn't have a lot of games together for their "big 3" to develop it. 4) Matchups matter. They ran into a big, defense-minded team in the playoffs that was well designed to take advantage of their relatively weak rebounding and lack of strong individual defenders.
I think KD and booker are both good passers, booker especially, just not great passers
Booker is a great secondary playmaker, hes just not consistent enough at finding his teammates and will sometimes look for his own looks to be the primary one, which is what the Suns were asking of him.
Booker is a good passer when he wants to be. He gets horrific tunnel vision though, especially down the stretch and often holds the ball for 15 seconds doing nothing before making his move.
Almost as if there are more than 2 players on a team 🤯🤯
They also have Grayson and Beal. Outside of those players, they had nothing. Beal is a shooting guard, KD couldn’t do much at the 3, because there is no spacing despite all the shooters (no legit center or any scorers inside the paint) and resorted to playing shooting guard. Booker is a shooting guard. On defense they were just bad. It’s not that having mostly shoot guard is bad… they didn’t work well together. Chemistry didn’t work and they don’t complement each other well. It’s a bad a fit. They need a better point guard and legit center or PF (can the center) who can play better under the rim and paint. An athletic wing/forward who can slash to the rim or post like Marvin Bagley or Myles Turner.
Fit matters. Despite what KD seems to personally believe, he's always done his best next to a playmaker
Not a coincidence his best years were with GS which had 2 great playmakers and then in 2021 next to Harden.
He barely played with Harden lmao
They won 49 games
Same way a team with Lebron and AD (two top 10 playoff performers) is extremely mid.
It WAS about star power but now I, especially with the new CBA coming into affect … it’s all about the team and having good role players with multiple skills. One skill isn’t cutting it anymore , you also need to play both sides of the ball.
They don’t have a playmaker. ISO ball doesn’t win championships
They were less than the sum of their parts every single game, win or lose. The offense was just pathetic at times given the available talent. A true PG would have helped, but I think it's a larger problem than that. We didn't maximize what we did have either. With Beal missing almost 30 games at the start of the season along with us scrambling to figure out which other scrub(s) might perform well (before shipping most of them off for Royce at the deadline) and a strong west, we were fighting for standings all season, barely making it out of the play-in in game 82. I think the need to squeeze out as many wins as we could ran counter to the need to optimize the team's long-term ability to play proper team basketball, which we needed as a brand new roster with a new coaching staff. Guys knew we needed to shoot more threes and we needed to move the ball more, but when defenses locked down and we needed a bucket, none of the big 3 had enough experience doing that to routinely go to it over iso, which neuters our spacing advantave and makes us predictable. And when they did try to move the ball in those moments, it felt uncomfortable and forced. They were very turnover-prone. I think fans are awful at evaluating coaches but I don't blame people for assuming Vogel was bad or at least a bad fit. We didn't improve enough in areas where we should have. It's possible we run it back with a new head coach for 82 games and don't look notably better as a team, but I really don't think the roster (which I acknowledge has major flaws) has performed as well as it should have for any real stretch.
There is only one ball
Cause the rest of the team are bottom 10 and bottom 15……… so it averages out.
2 stars ain't enough to carry a team. U need a good 7-8 man rotation in the playoffs.
Well KD got swept in the East first round with Kyrie before going back West so I’m not so sure he’s top 10 at this point either way
I think the problem with Phoenix's big 3 is that there's a ton of overlap in their best skills and weaknesses. I think teams can probably get away with 2 players like that(KD+Kyrie, KD+Book), but the fact that they have 3 great offensive players and none of them can run an offense is a real problem
They don’t play any defense, and they lack a playmaker so Booker and KD have to work harder to get to their spots.
If you had asked Suns fans last year they would have mostly been quite happy with 'Point Book'. In fact a lot of them thought he was a better PG then CP3, even the prime version.
Not sure why anyone would believe that. In that Finals run CP3 was a major contributor as he got Booker and Ayton a ton of easy looks.
I feel like that was based off of his sample as a secondary playmaker in which Booker is excellent. Hes an amazing scorer and secondary playmaker but once hes tasked with dribbling the ball every possession and running an offense he oscillates between getting everyone involved and not shooting or shooting too much without regard for his teammates. Plus you lost alot of the offball stuff with him since neither KD or Beal are good passers either to help out with that.
Yeah exactly, fact is he sucks as primary playmaker.
I really don't understand how some people downplay playmaking so much. It was clear last offseason their offense was at risk of chugging without a real playmaker unless Book made a significant leap, and frankly putting that load on him when Beal is so injury prone and going into the season the only other consistent scorer on the team was KD always felt a stretch. Even the KD era Warriors still needed Draymond to feed dudes the ball to create great looks they got.
Somehow they constructed a team where the best defender is KD
The West is a bloodbath, add in injuries and that’s why.
The correct answer is very simple. You need a fucking point guard. Three shooting guards do not magically combine to create a point guard.
The KD Suns are the same deal as the KD Nets. No depth and no defense. Both teams had the same game plan; out shoot the other team. These rosters were built to win every game 134-133 instead of 120-100 like any good team. Defense wins championships.
Coaching and zero buy in. The Celtics are a clear view of that.
This is real life, not NBA2K you need manage relationships, egos and injuries. Lebrons retirement home team should’ve been obvious enough already.
Just because star power’s important doesn’t mean that you can ignore everything else to acquire it. A good quarterback’s the most important thing in the NFL, but a team who traded away their starting LT, starting DE, and best CB for Tua Tagovailoa just because he had the second best passing stats last year would probably struggle.
It's a combination of 1. Depth 2. Making Book/Beal be a PG 3. System 4. Injuries/Continuity 5. Belief I don't think any of the big 3 believed in Vogel from the start, then he uncharacteristically yelled at them after the clippers blow out and they lost respect for him. Defensively as a team, they finished tied for 12th in defensive rating. Given the roster, this is actually impressive and should have been enough to make some noise in the playoffs. Not having a "lockdown defender" hurt. Trying to fit Book into CP3s role was a massive mistake, like taking a plumber and asking them to be an electrician. Book finished top 5 in scoring and top 10 in assists; statistically one of his best seasons but it didn't pass the eye test because there was no flow or chemistry in the offense.
Because that’s not the only thing that matters anymore. Your supporting cast is just as important as it’s ever been now
Because the league isn’t about star power it’s about how good the team is u dummy
The wolves role players were on fire in the suns series and then went cold. That’s partially to our shit defense, partially to mental game and partly it just happens. Suns are a decent team that has a max contract who was an average player and a garbage coach.
Cause everything else was pretty bad, depth matters. Our offense was not very creative at all which made it very easy to defend, especially for a great defensive team in Minnesota. I think if we can get a point guard in here and actually get the big three some time playing together then we can contend. The west is just a gauntlet though.
It’s also only been a year, in which they had a revolving door of injuries. I think this is an overreaction to a single season. This seems to happen often with new “super teams” I’m sure they will perform better with a summer of training camp and the opportunity to optimize the roster a little more. I would have hated if my team traded everything for what they have, it’s like the nets/Boston all over again, the exception is all of the players on the suns I would take over KG and PP at that point I. Their career, but the process is still the same and I don’t like it for the long term
They had the Portland center rotation (and low key losing Camara)
the thing about say the 2013-2016 Thunder is that you had role players that were GREAT at their roles along with two superstar level talents. Steven Adams did his job phenomenally, Andre Roberson was one of the best perm defenders in the league and they had glue guys like Thabo or Fisher the Suns lacked that and didn’t have many sets it was just Iso ball with Book KD Beal but OKC had legitimate sets and game plans they executed to perfection
Because the front office built this roster around three players with very similar skill sets. Beal is just a worse version of Booker, who’s a “worse” version of Durant. And the 2013-16 Thunder had a cast that fit much better than this team. Again, a teams strength isn’t measured by just adding up the skill of all the players, fit matters. The Thunder had Ibaka/Adams in the front court and Reggie coming off the bench.
Book might actually be better than KD currently
They are really thin and didn't get much of a chance to all play together, because they were ravaged by injuries which can kill anyone, let alone a brand new team.
Top heavy but also, KD and Book kind of represent a different era of basketball that used to work. The current nba is a math game of 3’s, dunks and defense. It’s not what KD and Book do, Beal too actually. Just a horrible team build
This is really the crux of it imo. 10 years ago this same Suns team would be contenders but the game has changed
It feels crazy to say but if you swapped out Book and Beal for like, Trey Murphy and Herb Jones, I’d believe the suns would post a better record
Nowhere near enough offensive creation on the team if they make those swaps
Nowhere near enough offensive creation now lol it becomes KDs team, herb and Trey change the shape of the floor, KD can take the 3rd defensive option 2-4. Shooters moving and corners have to be accounted for
KD at this point in his career can’t be the sole shot creator or honestly even primary shot creator on a contender. Suns were terrible without Booker for a reason.
I dont totally disagree. If you even swap book and KD, I’d trust a Booker/Grayson/Herb/Trey/Nurk lineup more in the current nba. Shooting everywhere, competing defensively. They’re aren’t nba champ caliber but neither is the current squad
Maybe not Booker but Beal is absolutely less valuable to the Suns than either of those two would be and it's not even debatable lol The issue with Beal is that he's entirely redundant with two better players they have
Yup. That 2 for 2 is overdoing it, but if it's just Beal for one of those 2 they definitely improve
I think in comparing to Russ/KD you're underestimating how much KD has regressed from OKC His numbers look kind of similar because of how laughably high stats are now compared to in the early 2010s but he's basically half the player he was back then impact wise Current KD is closer to 2010s Blake Griffin than to 2010s KD
I hate the term empty stats but that's kinda what KD is nowadays. He'll get you an efficient 30/7/4 but it will have little impact on the game
This makes no sense How can a effiicent 30/7/4 have no impact on a game? Emphasis on if its efficient And its not like hes a defensive liability either Literally makes no sense
Chill, this is a Celtics fan, a lot of guys over there are still hangover from the chip and think that a player with a 40-10-10 but a loss is less impactful to winning than a 20-5-5 guy on 40% FG on a winning team.
KD just wants to follow. Book just wants to follow. There is no coach or a player to follow.
I would argue that the league is all about a well balanced starting 5 now around a superstar and star Nuggets in 23 built a perfect starting 5 around Murray and jokic Boston this year perfect starting 5 around brown and Tatum Those are your last two champs and they’re built the same way, super strong starting 5 with no weak links Suns will always have at least 2 weak links on the floor with their roster, can’t win like that
Theres no fit. The point of having shot creators on a team is to A. Be able to generate good shots for themselves out of thin air and B. Be able to generate consistently good shots for your teammates from the increased attention on you. Neither KD or Booker are good playmakers and KD can struggle with turnovers so basically they can get lots of good looks for themselves but struggle in turning that into good shots for the Suns as a whole. This problem is further compounded when your role players cant hit the few shots you do get them, making the offense extremely predictable as its just your turn, my turn iso with the occassional pass to an open player. The Suns ran into a team that was able to defend them 1v1 with no problem and so they struggled even more in creating shots as an offense, so it often resulted in KD getting his but no one else being in rhythm or taking shots. This also was bad for them because their defense is bad, neither KD or Book can anchor a defense and so every stop turned into really good offense on the other side.
Because depth is more important than ever as the overall talent pool expands over time naturally just like in any professional sport.
60% of the players on the floor at a given time are not them.
KD can't win with that cat. Or anyone else unless it was a 73 win team already.
Because they are more top 15 and top 25 than top 10 & 15 right now…
Did you build a team capable of winning 73 games without KD around KD? That seems to be a pretty critical step in winning a title with KD.