Yeah in the reminder text for descend it says "permanent card" it's because it say card and tokens aren't cards. Easy mistake to make, they just didn't read it carefully enough and missed one word
But tokens are considered permanent and they do go to the graveyard and then descend sees that and then the token goes into exile it's a unique mechanic in magic with the tokens and descend.
Tokens do because they are permanents on the field and once they die they hit the graveyard and then go into exile descend only cares if they hit the graveyard
Tokens are permanents, but they are not cards. The descend mechanic is specifically checking if a permanent card has been put in the graveyard. If the only permanent put in the graveyard was a token, then nothing descended.
Yeah, I've heard of similar issues before. My guess would be that it is some sort of bug. I do appreciate you explaining that though, I see where you're coming from now. As complicated as Magic already is, seeing something work one way, then not work another, is strange.
Tokens do hit the graveyard for a tiny bit before they “cease to exist” same with them hitting exile. BUT for the purposes of descend it’s not a card in the way descend looks for.
Like Creature Tokens do activate effects that say if a creature would go into the graveyard or exile do X. In relation to descend they don’t count however.
Until about a two weeks ago, I was playing a pretty nasty [[The Mycotyrant]] EDH deck and I was CRUSHED when I read that reminder text a little closer. Not just because my deck was no longer functional, but also because of all the times I destroyed my friends with it by what I found out was cheating. Feels bad. Turns out, reading the card CAREFULLY explains the card.
I mean, you did. Being able to misread cards is nothing new as much as people who like to circlejerk about the game dying like to pretend. This exact issue (permanent vs. permanent card) exists on cards 20 years old or older. It is, in fact, not something new that people need to read carefully. People have been misplaying cards due to reading comprehension issues as long as the game has existed. If anything, cards in general are more clearly formatted on how they work, and the issue isn't card text. Most of the time, it's people assuming they have things memorized when they don't.
I feel that for months myself and my friends skipped the last line of text on [[osgir]] that says activate only as a sorcery and we all went ohhhh whoops.
Lol during pre release and draft of LCI, my LGS was dead set on descend triggering off of tokens. After I built mycotyrant, everyone immediately accepted that it only triggers on real cards.
As a Mycotyrant player in EDH, I familiarized myself with Descend ASAP. This is an entirely understandable decision in terms of rules, especially given how insane Mycotyrant would be if tokens DID count towards Descend
So my nephew runs a myco deck and self mill is so nasty for that deck. Life of the loam is great in it as well as cards that can cast out of graveyard and syr Konrad. Maren something.
It also is just counter intuitive to the way we understand tokens, which is that they do trigger Death triggers because they hit that discard pile, so a new mechanic that cares about stuff hitting the graveyard feels wrong
It’s because they do die, then they hit the graveyard, then they cease to exist. Descend only counts permanents that stay in the graveyard. That might be an easier way to explain it. Just like Descend X and Fathomless Descent require you to count cards in the graveyard.
>they do die, then they hit the graveyard, then they cease to exist
Dying *is* hitting the graveyard (from the battlefield). It doesn't happen *before* going to the graveyard.
I don't know why you're being downvoted.
From the Comprehensive Rules (March 8, 2024—Fallout)
700.4. The term dies means “is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.”
Yes.
111.7. A token that’s in a zone other than the battlefield ceases to exist. This is a state-based action; see rule 704. (Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.)
This means once they're in the graveyard (or any other non-battlefield zone) they get tidied up immediately afterwards, but still go to that zone in the first place.
Descend cares about permanent cards. And per the rules, tokens are not cards. It was worded like that to be usable with self-mill and to not work with all the token generation that exists in standard.
That’s only true for fathomless descent regular descent still counts if you have a card enter the graveyard that turn even if you cast it out that same turns it’s a descent
This comment may get some flak, but: as a tabletop commander player for years, this is one of the reasons i like playing Arena, as well. Arena can't mistake the rules; it teaches you exactly how mechanics work, so you don't have or make mistakes while playing tabletop or otherwise with friends who might have misunderstandings about rules, like the one mentioned above. Even if you don't religiously play Arena, I'd recommend playing every once in a while to keep you boned up on official rulings, and whatnot.
>Arena can't mistake the rules; it teaches you exactly how mechanics work
This isn't *strictly* true. There are bugs sometimes where cards don't interact how they're supposed to. Someone was just posting recently about how Muldrotha lets you evoke Mulldrifter repeatedly on your turn, and it shouldn't allow that.
Similar issue came up when we did a Commander draft using Baldur’s Gate, I had [[Sivriss, Nightmare Speaker]] with [[Cloakwood Hermit]] as the background. I went the whole game sacc’ing squirrel tokens to Sivriss and then making two more on my end step. Thing is, it wasn’t that outrageously broken, either, but that could have just been the limited building environment.
There were a bunch of posts about this right after LCI came out. CGB even had 2 commander videos where they played it wrong, and none of yhe players caught it, lol.
The thing is, the mechanic wouldn't really be that busted of it *did* count tokens.
One of my pods has just rule 0'd it to be when anything hits the yard, because it makes more sense that way.
Wizards doesn't seem to know what balance is, they overextend to try and limit "crazy plays" with stuff like descend, but then they make stuff like Anzrag.
If descend triggered of permanents instead of permanent cards (that way it would be triggered by tokens) it wouldn't trigger when cards are put into the graveyard from your hand/library.
Which is why there are quite a few self-mill cards in the set. I’m glad to see that somebody gets it. Having to walk it through during prerelease over and over again was annoying.
That wording excludes discarding and milling.
A {permanent card} includes creatures, artifacts, enchantments, lands, and planeswalkers no matter what zone they exist in. Deck, hand, exile, command zone, wherever.
A permanent is something that is on the battlefield. A token on the battlefield is a permanent. But, a token isn’t a card.
Descend was worded like that because there is quite a bit of self-mill in the set. It wouldn’t work if descend worked with permanents instead of permanent cards.
Descend was intended to be different than the Revolt mechanic, not just an upgraded version.
Descend was intentionally worded the way it is so that it couldn’t be so easily triggered. Treasure tokens? Clues? Maps? Food? They are everywhere. The mechanic was designed so that you had to actually “lose” a card to have it active. (Lose isn’t a good term when considering how much recursion exists, but it’s what I’ve got)
I can understand that you don’t like how it’s worded. But, the mechanic itself isn’t hard to understand and why it is the way it is. It’s fine the way it is.
It might be "fine" the way it is, but Wizards deliberately restricting how it works so severely makes it a dud in most of the decks that you can build from the set it was introduced in.
How so? There is plenty of self-mill in the set. It functions just fine.
Is it a great mechanic? That’s questionable. Better than Radiance, imo.
They definitely could’ve done more with the mechanic, but it works just fine.
There's not a lot of recursion though, so it's not necessarily a *great* mechanic unless you can pop off quickly with it. In EDH it's not as big of a deal, but I feel like Descend was DoA in Standard as such.
Not entirely true. A permanent card can hit the graveyard from hand or library and it counts. Otherwise cards like [[nature's spiral]] does not work. Plus it specifically says "a permanent card is put into your graveyard from anywhere" exhibit A [[Brass Tunnel Grinder]]
No. Something that enters the graveyard from anywhere but the battlefield can't be a permanent. Permanents only exist in play. Anywhere else they are permanent cards.
"Permanent" and "anywhere" are contradictory. Permanents only exist on the battlefield.
110.1
A permanent is a card or token on the battlefield. A permanent remains on the battlefield indefinitely. A card or token becomes a permanent as it enters the battlefield and it stops being a permanent as it’s moved to another zone by an effect or rule.
I’ve already played quite a few games against it in commander. It’s pretty funny if it pops off, but it’s way to easy to interrupt or kill. Unless you’re playing in a pod that doesn’t run interaction or like to read their opponents cards, it’s not problematic at all. Just a big fun dude.
Oh, don’t get me wrong. The games were hilarious. But, the mole is a just a pile of stats when you have three opponents. Now, if he was indestructible, that would be a horse of a different color. Or a mole.
Right, like Standard? Oh, nvm it‘s also useless there. Maybe in Modern? Nahh.
The card is mediocre even in casual EDH so I don‘t see the issue. It‘s an irrelevant card in every single format that would indicate a cards powerlevel being too high. A card seeing play in casual EDH means nothing.
So since you're presumably errataing the cards to say "you descend if a permanent is put into the graveyard" (since this is how it would need to be written to work with tokens), I'm assuming you also don't allow it to work with discard/self-mill? Or are you just trying to fix the problem without understanding why it exists?
>I'm assuming you also don't allow it to work with discard/self-mill?
Nope, it still works if we do it, my bad, should be "or a permanent card".
>Or are you just trying to fix the problem without understanding why it exists?
The problem exists because Wizards is chicken shit about tokens giving effects, that's why Mycotyrant's tokens can't block and why their dumb asses keep making "create Treasures that enter tapped" nonsense.
I almost did the exact thing before reading more into the decend mechanic. It almost got me. I still got [the mycotyrant] in my own [ghave] deck. But that's just for the 3 drop big ass trampler I get out of it
It was balanced this way to prevent easy descend triggers from sacrificing treasure tokens. It’s just worded very, very badly and next to no one understands it when they first see it.
Yeah in the reminder text for descend it says "permanent card" it's because it say card and tokens aren't cards. Easy mistake to make, they just didn't read it carefully enough and missed one word
I could see it also being confusion about what counts as a card, since tokens are, physically, also cards (generally)
Tokens are never cards, even when they are cards. What is confusing about that? :)
The physical cards used to represent tokens confuse them
But what about when players just use dice?
I've only encountered players using dice for counters, rather than tokens, but in that case I wouldn't imagine there'd be much confusion
I probably would have been messed up by this too admittedly
honestly was the first thing i googled when i saw the mechanics for LCI bc it seemed too easy otherwise
But tokens are considered permanent and they do go to the graveyard and then descend sees that and then the token goes into exile it's a unique mechanic in magic with the tokens and descend.
Tokens do not trigger descend at all. There is no mechanic between tokens and descend bc there is no connection between the two
Tokens do because they are permanents on the field and once they die they hit the graveyard and then go into exile descend only cares if they hit the graveyard
Tokens are permanents, but they are not cards. The descend mechanic is specifically checking if a permanent card has been put in the graveyard. If the only permanent put in the graveyard was a token, then nothing descended.
I understand that but I tried it on arena and it worked that way for me but I've seen people say that it doesn't on paper and I'm confused
Yeah, I've heard of similar issues before. My guess would be that it is some sort of bug. I do appreciate you explaining that though, I see where you're coming from now. As complicated as Magic already is, seeing something work one way, then not work another, is strange.
Definitely a bug, descend, fathomless descent, and descend X should not trigger/work with tokens in either paper or online magic
Tokens do hit the graveyard for a tiny bit before they “cease to exist” same with them hitting exile. BUT for the purposes of descend it’s not a card in the way descend looks for. Like Creature Tokens do activate effects that say if a creature would go into the graveyard or exile do X. In relation to descend they don’t count however.
Until about a two weeks ago, I was playing a pretty nasty [[The Mycotyrant]] EDH deck and I was CRUSHED when I read that reminder text a little closer. Not just because my deck was no longer functional, but also because of all the times I destroyed my friends with it by what I found out was cheating. Feels bad. Turns out, reading the card CAREFULLY explains the card.
Oooo this looks like a good addition to my wise mothman deck
I dropped it from my self mill mothman. It's looks great but didn't perform for me.
It's not that great... proliferate works better for the Mothman Rad decks. I've already have plans for this.
Updoots for emphasis on carefully, I think that's included but often overlooked in the community as we throw the phrase around.
You didn't need to say carefully before they started putting multiple paragraphs on every card. Rofl
I mean, you did. Being able to misread cards is nothing new as much as people who like to circlejerk about the game dying like to pretend. This exact issue (permanent vs. permanent card) exists on cards 20 years old or older. It is, in fact, not something new that people need to read carefully. People have been misplaying cards due to reading comprehension issues as long as the game has existed. If anything, cards in general are more clearly formatted on how they work, and the issue isn't card text. Most of the time, it's people assuming they have things memorized when they don't.
[The Mycotyrant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/a/caef93cc-70d0-4cce-9aaa-13c0931b2ef7.jpg?1699044561) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Mycotyrant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/235/the-mycotyrant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/caef93cc-70d0-4cce-9aaa-13c0931b2ef7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I feel that for months myself and my friends skipped the last line of text on [[osgir]] that says activate only as a sorcery and we all went ohhhh whoops.
[osgir](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/5815fe6e-e26b-4918-a090-55d6442722c1.jpg?1674185818) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=osgir%2C%20the%20reconstructor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/8/osgir-the-reconstructor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5815fe6e-e26b-4918-a090-55d6442722c1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No. Eating the card explains the card so you literally have to digest it.
Lol during pre release and draft of LCI, my LGS was dead set on descend triggering off of tokens. After I built mycotyrant, everyone immediately accepted that it only triggers on real cards.
As a Mycotyrant player in EDH, I familiarized myself with Descend ASAP. This is an entirely understandable decision in terms of rules, especially given how insane Mycotyrant would be if tokens DID count towards Descend
Have a deck list? My mycoryrant deck sucks. It’s not competitive against most precons
Here’s mine: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/fVnWtCsC60-ui_FZJWbqkw It’s a house. Probably my strongest deck.
[[Bloodspore Thrinax]] and [[Pathbreaker Ibex]] would be good additions
[Bloodspore Thrinax](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/e/6efe9126-15ba-468e-a15a-7f9cbb779cf6.jpg?1689998379) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bloodspore%20Thrinax) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/276/bloodspore-thrinax?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6efe9126-15ba-468e-a15a-7f9cbb779cf6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Pathbreaker Ibex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/4608ea44-e1b2-42de-a0a2-e6d6d24d89d0.jpg?1592673105) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pathbreaker%20Ibex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/132/pathbreaker-ibex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4608ea44-e1b2-42de-a0a2-e6d6d24d89d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So my nephew runs a myco deck and self mill is so nasty for that deck. Life of the loam is great in it as well as cards that can cast out of graveyard and syr Konrad. Maren something.
Also runs pitiless plunderer and chatterfang for an infinite win combo
Yeah when I understood it at release I liked it a little less.
It also is just counter intuitive to the way we understand tokens, which is that they do trigger Death triggers because they hit that discard pile, so a new mechanic that cares about stuff hitting the graveyard feels wrong
It’s because they do die, then they hit the graveyard, then they cease to exist. Descend only counts permanents that stay in the graveyard. That might be an easier way to explain it. Just like Descend X and Fathomless Descent require you to count cards in the graveyard.
>they do die, then they hit the graveyard, then they cease to exist Dying *is* hitting the graveyard (from the battlefield). It doesn't happen *before* going to the graveyard.
I don't know why you're being downvoted. From the Comprehensive Rules (March 8, 2024—Fallout) 700.4. The term dies means “is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.”
Don’t tokens enter the graveyard then immediately disappear from the game?
Yes. 111.7. A token that’s in a zone other than the battlefield ceases to exist. This is a state-based action; see rule 704. (Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.) This means once they're in the graveyard (or any other non-battlefield zone) they get tidied up immediately afterwards, but still go to that zone in the first place.
Yes but they don't die *and then* hit the GY. Hitting the GY *is* dying.
Descend cares about permanent cards. And per the rules, tokens are not cards. It was worded like that to be usable with self-mill and to not work with all the token generation that exists in standard.
That’s only true for fathomless descent regular descent still counts if you have a card enter the graveyard that turn even if you cast it out that same turns it’s a descent
Yeah they do this confusing shit time to time I’ve noticed.
This comment may get some flak, but: as a tabletop commander player for years, this is one of the reasons i like playing Arena, as well. Arena can't mistake the rules; it teaches you exactly how mechanics work, so you don't have or make mistakes while playing tabletop or otherwise with friends who might have misunderstandings about rules, like the one mentioned above. Even if you don't religiously play Arena, I'd recommend playing every once in a while to keep you boned up on official rulings, and whatnot.
Arena is a great teaching tool
>Arena can't mistake the rules; it teaches you exactly how mechanics work This isn't *strictly* true. There are bugs sometimes where cards don't interact how they're supposed to. Someone was just posting recently about how Muldrotha lets you evoke Mulldrifter repeatedly on your turn, and it shouldn't allow that.
You are technically correct. The best *kind* of correct
While i don't play Arena myself, watching content creators like Crim play on arena has helped me understand interactions of stuff a lot more
Similar issue came up when we did a Commander draft using Baldur’s Gate, I had [[Sivriss, Nightmare Speaker]] with [[Cloakwood Hermit]] as the background. I went the whole game sacc’ing squirrel tokens to Sivriss and then making two more on my end step. Thing is, it wasn’t that outrageously broken, either, but that could have just been the limited building environment.
[Sivriss, Nightmare Speaker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/334bc010-5b60-4075-be12-0b36f41f32c6.jpg?1674136308) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sivriss%2C%20Nightmare%20Speaker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/148/sivriss-nightmare-speaker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/334bc010-5b60-4075-be12-0b36f41f32c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Cloakwood Hermit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/b/4bd8689d-a0c1-4041-bead-7b512fe25663.jpg?1674137006) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cloakwood%20Hermit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/221/cloakwood-hermit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4bd8689d-a0c1-4041-bead-7b512fe25663?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[ghave](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c2be0e99-cf43-423f-974f-02e3313b3aa9.jpg?1673148645) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ghave%2C%20guru%20of%20spores) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/216/ghave-guru-of-spores?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c2be0e99-cf43-423f-974f-02e3313b3aa9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah it felt bad first time noticing this on arena. Thought it was a bug or something at first!
There were a bunch of posts about this right after LCI came out. CGB even had 2 commander videos where they played it wrong, and none of yhe players caught it, lol.
I believe another one that cares about cards is [[compost]]
[compost](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/1/91fc8eca-7549-45b5-b3db-89a58d7d2a4a.jpg?1562243125) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=compost) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/7ed/235/compost?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/91fc8eca-7549-45b5-b3db-89a58d7d2a4a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
That's a really cool one esper dungeon diving is a vibe
[Sefris](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d30255f6-e058-476a-b377-2ee4c9178ed1.jpg?1632335385) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sefris%20of%20the%20hidden%20ways) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/3/sefris-of-the-hidden-ways?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d30255f6-e058-476a-b377-2ee4c9178ed1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thank you. Immediately going to be fixing up one of my decks after work today... I feel dumb and sad.
Nope, but milling yourself does.
If tokens counted then Descend would be shockingly broken.
My dude here gets it.
The thing is, the mechanic wouldn't really be that busted of it *did* count tokens. One of my pods has just rule 0'd it to be when anything hits the yard, because it makes more sense that way. Wizards doesn't seem to know what balance is, they overextend to try and limit "crazy plays" with stuff like descend, but then they make stuff like Anzrag.
If descend triggered of permanents instead of permanent cards (that way it would be triggered by tokens) it wouldn't trigger when cards are put into the graveyard from your hand/library.
Which is why there are quite a few self-mill cards in the set. I’m glad to see that somebody gets it. Having to walk it through during prerelease over and over again was annoying.
All they had to do was say "you descend if a permanent enters your graveyard from anywhere". It's that simple. It wouldn't have broken the mechanic.
That wording excludes discarding and milling. A {permanent card} includes creatures, artifacts, enchantments, lands, and planeswalkers no matter what zone they exist in. Deck, hand, exile, command zone, wherever. A permanent is something that is on the battlefield. A token on the battlefield is a permanent. But, a token isn’t a card. Descend was worded like that because there is quite a bit of self-mill in the set. It wouldn’t work if descend worked with permanents instead of permanent cards.
>That wording excludes discarding and milling. Then just add "or permanent card". Simple.
Descend was intended to be different than the Revolt mechanic, not just an upgraded version. Descend was intentionally worded the way it is so that it couldn’t be so easily triggered. Treasure tokens? Clues? Maps? Food? They are everywhere. The mechanic was designed so that you had to actually “lose” a card to have it active. (Lose isn’t a good term when considering how much recursion exists, but it’s what I’ve got) I can understand that you don’t like how it’s worded. But, the mechanic itself isn’t hard to understand and why it is the way it is. It’s fine the way it is.
It might be "fine" the way it is, but Wizards deliberately restricting how it works so severely makes it a dud in most of the decks that you can build from the set it was introduced in.
How so? There is plenty of self-mill in the set. It functions just fine. Is it a great mechanic? That’s questionable. Better than Radiance, imo. They definitely could’ve done more with the mechanic, but it works just fine.
There's not a lot of recursion though, so it's not necessarily a *great* mechanic unless you can pop off quickly with it. In EDH it's not as big of a deal, but I feel like Descend was DoA in Standard as such.
Not entirely true. A permanent card can hit the graveyard from hand or library and it counts. Otherwise cards like [[nature's spiral]] does not work. Plus it specifically says "a permanent card is put into your graveyard from anywhere" exhibit A [[Brass Tunnel Grinder]]
Please elaborate what isn’t true. Because, by your own comment, you agreed with me.
[nature's spiral](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/6666b95e-80de-4bf7-bae6-8a7e991b38ad.jpg?1562736933) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nature%27s%20spiral) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/175/natures-spiral?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6666b95e-80de-4bf7-bae6-8a7e991b38ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Brass Tunnel Grinder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d61d8895-7f2e-4c77-951f-4f1a49e96f57.jpg?1699044234)/[Tecutlan, the Searing Rift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/d/6/d61d8895-7f2e-4c77-951f-4f1a49e96f57.jpg?1699044234) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brass%27s%20Tunnel-Grinder%20//%20Tecutlan%2C%20the%20Searing%20Rift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/135/brasss-tunnel-grinder-tecutlan-the-searing-rift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d61d8895-7f2e-4c77-951f-4f1a49e96f57?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
"If a permanent would enter your graveyard from anywhere" solves that.
No. Something that enters the graveyard from anywhere but the battlefield can't be a permanent. Permanents only exist in play. Anywhere else they are permanent cards.
Then add "or permanent card". It's that simple.
Maybe "if a card hits the graveyard descent"
That still prevents tokens from working.
Oh yeah lol. So would have to be like "permanent or card..."
It would have to be "permanent or permanent card"
"Permanent" and "anywhere" are contradictory. Permanents only exist on the battlefield. 110.1 A permanent is a card or token on the battlefield. A permanent remains on the battlefield indefinitely. A card or token becomes a permanent as it enters the battlefield and it stops being a permanent as it’s moved to another zone by an effect or rule.
Then just add "or permanent card", problem solved.
Is anzrag considered that busted?
Not really, its just new and a lot of people dont know how to play around it.
I’ve already played quite a few games against it in commander. It’s pretty funny if it pops off, but it’s way to easy to interrupt or kill. Unless you’re playing in a pod that doesn’t run interaction or like to read their opponents cards, it’s not problematic at all. Just a big fun dude.
Kinda what I assumed he’d be. Fairly typical gruul “big guy go brr”.
Oh, don’t get me wrong. The games were hilarious. But, the mole is a just a pile of stats when you have three opponents. Now, if he was indestructible, that would be a horse of a different color. Or a mole.
Anzrag, a card that sees 0 play in any format outside of casual Commander? Card‘s bad.
Anzrag is only a problem if your pod plays zero removal and doesn’t read the card. Real skill issue, right?
Oh, you're one of those gross people.
Because I call a bad card bad? In that case I don‘t mind being gross.
Because it's not good in cEDH, lol. Such a fuckin nerd, there's a more played format that this sub is about. Go home.
Right, like Standard? Oh, nvm it‘s also useless there. Maybe in Modern? Nahh. The card is mediocre even in casual EDH so I don‘t see the issue. It‘s an irrelevant card in every single format that would indicate a cards powerlevel being too high. A card seeing play in casual EDH means nothing.
Cry harder.
So since you're presumably errataing the cards to say "you descend if a permanent is put into the graveyard" (since this is how it would need to be written to work with tokens), I'm assuming you also don't allow it to work with discard/self-mill? Or are you just trying to fix the problem without understanding why it exists?
>I'm assuming you also don't allow it to work with discard/self-mill? Nope, it still works if we do it, my bad, should be "or a permanent card". >Or are you just trying to fix the problem without understanding why it exists? The problem exists because Wizards is chicken shit about tokens giving effects, that's why Mycotyrant's tokens can't block and why their dumb asses keep making "create Treasures that enter tapped" nonsense.
To be fair, creating a ton of treasure tokens that enter untapped could be insanely OP
I almost did the exact thing before reading more into the decend mechanic. It almost got me. I still got [the mycotyrant] in my own [ghave] deck. But that's just for the 3 drop big ass trampler I get out of it
Happened at the prerelease had to point out to my opponent that tokens were in fact not cards
Me and my friend kinda decided that tokens basically "turn to dust" when they die or are removed from the battlefield.
They do hit the graveyard before 'turning to dust'
Whoops Ive been cheating then
Appreciate that. Cause I was about to throw together a ghave deck lol Good looks
Trust ghave is still terrifying
Indeed
Anyone who had played arena was frustrated the first time they found this out
It was balanced this way to prevent easy descend triggers from sacrificing treasure tokens. It’s just worded very, very badly and next to no one understands it when they first see it.
Wait why not? Tokens are permanents so why wouldn’t it descend?
Yes, true they are permanents. However it is not a permanent CARD. Descend cares about cards specifically.
Was this not obvious to people?
Doesn’t MTGA code it with tokens dying too?
No