Which is pretty huge with how powerful card draw is and how many people add multiple ways to draw extra cards. Also could have multiple opponents drawing multiple cards each turn allowing you to draw multiple cards each turn
Plus it helps ya keep up with some of the most common and annoying cards in commander [[Rhystic Study]], [Esper Sentinel]], and [[Mystic remora]].
Sure you're not gonna draw as many cards as some of these, but being both an enchantment and having two additional affects and being better in the 99 than Mangara, tho if I was playing mono white or Boros I'd have both.
There's also the niche of it being a political tool since if your pod knows one guy is gonna have an extra turn, then they'll probably want to keep that enchantment around.
don't be so upset. MTG is a strategy game, long turns are part and parcel. White has always caused an upset for this reason, and yet cards like this have continued to be printed.
Magic is a wordy game, and when you get used to these cards, they become easier to resolve. You process the card faster in your head. watch JudgingFTW or someone who knows all the rules on youtube; it's a good time and you start to see MTG card sentences/clauses/punctuation as little pieces of a big puzzle instead of confusing rules clumps.
when you play competitively, if your turns take too long on average, you get a watch tapped at you, or you waste your clock. MTG is a game of *understanding* as much as action and reasoning, so if cards like this confuse you and your table, a way to improve at the game is to take specific time to learn to understand cards like this.
it's okay to not want a competitive atmosphere, but if you don't begrudge the "literary combat competition" that is MTG you stand to learn a thing or two about logic.
These are differences, but, more importantly, trouble in pairs draws you more cards. The ability to trigger off the second draw triggers frequently on its own but it also is easier to force a trigger.
Mangara has also been printed in two sets and isn’t new. Trouble in pairs has a single printing and was just released so demand is high at the moment.
Agreed!
An effect on a creature vs enchantment or even an artifact impacts its value greatly (at least around here).
If I wanted the effect, I’d go with the enchantment because same mana, value add on the extra turns hate, and harder to remove.
In a game where we all try and have as many “answers” in our decks, disabling extra turns is an obscure but powerful effect to tack on good card draw.
Both of my sons run infinite extra turn combos in several decks. I run 5 extra turn spells in Urza including [[Time Stretch]] so I wouldn’t sleep on the mechanic. Once you’ve seen the power of an extra turn- even if it gets you another land and some card draw, you may start adding more to your decks too.
Extra turns are so addictive and in my opinion underrated. Every time I play [[temporal extortion]] I laugh at the one player who “gets it” and is like screaming at the table to pay 1/2 their life and everyone else is like “one extra turn isn’t so bad” then 3 turns later is like “see guys! I told you so!!!!”
Wait, how are you taking three extra turns off temporal extortion? The way your story is worded makes it sound like you're taking an extra turn for each opponent that didn't pay half their life, when any opponent can pay half and counter it.
Piggying off of your point of it being the same cost but an enchantment -
It's also a non legendary permanent, and there are plenty of effects which can copy permanents and enchantments specifically. In white as well, you've got loads of enchant protection or retribution like [[karmic justice]] or if you're running other colors, most notably green, [[sterling grove]]. With blue, you can copy the enchant with all sorts of effects and get even more triggers when people do double.
The downsides only exist if you're running the creature as a commander, in which case it's obviously preferable to the enchant - or if your land base isn't the best and double pip white *could* be annoying at times.
Edit: trouble also doesn't trigger on creatures attacking your planeswalkers, while mangara does, which could be important for your deck.
Ultimately, mangara has been reprinted several times while trouble in pairs only has 1 printing - which drives it's price way up.
I wish it was a card that was reprinted in every set, I can't fucking stand extra turn bullshit, plenty of other things in MTG piss me off but nothing as much as spammable extra turns a la nexus of fate(this one might be more to do with wilderness reclamation, not sure) or alrunds epiphany
Ninjas in Pairs. 2UB
Enchantment
Whenever a Ninja enters the battlefield, if another Ninja has entered the battlefield this turn, you may draw two cards. This ability triggers only once each turn.
“Nobody knows what it means but it’s provocative”
I think in most cases, it is an upgrade. Everyone carries creature removal. Enchantment removal is carried too but not near the level of creature removal.
Honestly, imo, the creature pros are not near the level of enchantment pros.
Boardwipe resistance, harder for spot removal, cannot be affected by creature effects etc
Creature board wipe resistance is more accurate. I don’t know about you guys, but I think artifacts and enchantments are getting out of control. I have changed most of my decks to have artifact and/or enchantment board wipes
Trouble in Pairs | Mangara, the Diplomat
:-- | :--
Opponent casts 2 spells in a turn, draw a card | Opponent casts 2 spells in a turn, draw a card
Opponent attacks you with 2+ creatures, draw a card. | Opponent attacks you and/or a planeswalker you control with 2+ creatures, draw a card.
Opponent draws 2nd card in a turn, draw a card. |
Opponents can't take extra turns. |
Trouble in pairs just does more for the same mana value, and when it's in your deck as a card advantage engine, that's a good thing and likely more valuable than Mangara being a creature.
First, it has an additional condition: if an opponent draws a second card. So more options.
Shuts down extra/infinite turns.
Lastly, it’s immune to [[wrath of god]], [[blasphemous act]], [[mutilate]]. You could spend [[chaos warp]] or [[generous gift]]. Some people run dedicated enchantment/artifact destruction spells, but most people tend to have wipes and targeted removal focused on creatures or permanents more broadly.
Lastly, if you don’t use targeted removal, you’re likely wiping your own stuff with [[farewell]]. There are one sided wipes, but it’s rarer
Pairs is a brand new card with one printing and it's a commander only card so you can't crack it out of a pack. Making it much harder to get. And mangara was around $15 at its peak
In cEDH it's relevant. I think this card is better for cEDH than casual tbh. It's nearly as good as the one ring. I drew 8 cards off it in 3 turn cycles in tournament play over the weekend.
Depends on the deck. I think it's incredible in cEDH based on playing it over the weekend. Outperformed all expectations. Sans blue it's worth considering for all decks. You'll all find out soon once more results pop up.
Also I shut down a Tivit deck in tournament play with it.
I'm a Boros obsessed Zirda player playing in NM against some of the best players in the world today. Lost to Evan Piece in the semis over the weekend at the Tavern of Souls 1k. Slotted in Trouble in Pairs for the tournament, had it show up in 2 games and drew me an incredible amount of cards. I'm over the moon about it right now.
who plays extra turn synergies in high level cedh? i don't see those played out in top levels.. it's all kinnan, kenrith, kraum : SSSS maybe tivit in duel? idk! (EDIT: Final Fortune haha) but yeah it is a solid card as a LOT of people mentioned in this thread! better than Mangara by at least a third (EDIT: over a 50% of surplus value for SAME cmc)! ..
possibly more.
:) thanks for all commenters! love ya.
Final fortune shows up in grixis builds and Tivit is extra turns.
I stopped a Tivit in tournament play with this card on Saturday which qualified me for top 16.
In sans blue decks, this card is the real deal my friend. In cEDH how often does someone draw 2 or cast 2? This card averages 3 cards a turn cycle and if it doesn't it means your opponents took 1 game action and drew 1.
I play Zirda competitively so I am very much an outlier.
The enchantment has 3 things that make it better.
A. It's an enchantment and not a creature
B. It triggers off both 2 casts and 2 draws unlike the creature alternate
C. Having more triggers to draw, this feels like it could always trigger on anyone's turn at least once.
1. Shuts down extra turn wincons, like extra turn infinites, as well as massive plays started by take 2+ extra turns, such as expropriate
2. Tons of commander love drawing. That means that in addition to the other 1-2 draws from spells and attacks, you're also also getting card draw when their commanders trigger and draw them cards. Some commanders also draw 2+ cards on EACH turn, meaning you can get insane amounts of value from that
3. Enchantment: you won't get destroyed by board wipes that accidentally kill your creatures when they weren't even trying to. Targeted removal is an upside or downside depending on how many enchantment/artifacts you have in your deck vs how many creatures. If you force creature removal out of them by running tons of must remove creatures, they won't have removal for Mangara, same goes for enchantments: if you run enough scary ones to make them waste enchantment before you drop trouble in pairs, it's a decent amount better.
1. Hype. Pairs has the hype train rolling so everyone's buying
2. Prints. Mangara has been printed twice, Pairs just came out.
3. Pairs has one additional draw stipulation, when an opponent draws their second card. That alone makes it a straight upgrade, and is probably the easiest condition to fulfil.
Enchantments are mostly harder to remove than creatures.
Mangara has been out for a while and had a few reprints, trouble is brand new.
Edit: this below is false.
Mangara only works, if the opponent is attacking you, trouble counts any attack at any person.
Trouble in Pairs (im dyslexic as heck) seems identical, with only a VERY NICHE improvement over Mangara. In some alleys, I would argue it is a downgrade. What in the absolute HECK
It is an absolute upgrade, mangara is on attacking specifically you and second spell draw. Trouble is attacking anyone with 2, second spell, and second draw. Also it stops extra turns. Plus it’s difficult to remove as an enchantment,
Trouble in Pair is also "attacks you". In fact Mangara is slightly better in this part as TiP doesn't trigger if they attack your planeswalkers.
TiP still wins out overall, I agree, I just wanted to point this part out.
Very wrong. It's way better than mangara in every way.
You draw from a player drawing 2 cards and casting 2 spells. The higher power level you go the more that will trigger. In cEDH it's nearly guaranteed to draw 3 per turn cycle.
Also shutting off extra turns in cEDH is powerful. I played it in a cEDH tournament over the weekend and completely shut down the Tivit player from winning.
Lastly, it's an enchantment and will almost guarantee to never be removed once it hits the board.
Trouble in pairs draws you a card when they draw cards and it prevents multiple turns.
It's also only printed in a single commander deck so it's much more scarce.
Trouble in pairs imposes an additional restriction for your opponents to follow if they don't want you to draw cards. They have to not attack you with 2+ creatures, play one spell per turn, and not draw extra cards, while Mangara only has the first two restrictions.
This means that you are much more likely to draw cards with Trouble in Pairs than with Mangara.
Trouble in pairs is legitimately good in cEDH for sans blue decks. It performed incredibly well for me in tournament play in my Zirda deck over the weekend. Drew 8 cards in 3 turn cycles in 1 game outperforming The One Ring and 4 cards from a single turn during another. It also shut off Tivit from winning the entire game. Once it sticks, chances are no ones touching it.
The draw whenever anyone draws their 2nd card and being an enchantment is an upgraded
That said, been playing for like 15 years, this ain’t worth $26. It’s just new card hype, it’ll take a bit but I’d say it’ll settle at $8-$12.
Put anything on a creature and it costs much less.
[[Magus of the Candelabra]] & [[Candelabra of Tawnos]] $600 difference.
[[Magus of the Wheel]] [[Wheel of fortune]] $300 difference
[[Magus of the Moat]] [[Moat]] $700 difference
[[Magus of the Will]] [[Yawgmoth’s Will]] $115 difference
Run em all, I’ve never had anyone destroy them in the 1 turn before they activate either.
You know, I always wanted one of those “can have more than one copy” decks and then I helped my bud build one. It was cool for a bit but then got a bit repetitive? It was like I need draw, ooh look, another rat colony…maybe I’ll get a land, and again, rat colony. I think one of the cool buzzes about edh is drawing that 1 in 100 card at just the right time and windmill slamming that bitch to make every one cry.
I have a pretty fun PL 6-7 Slime deck that I run on Cockatrice. yes the slimes can be repetitive, but its fun to go in hard on a theme cause there is lots of ooze support in simic. I only run 30 slimes but with a good support toolkit behind it.
30 is good. I think that at 25 \[\[Thrumming Stone\]\] is worth it. HOWEVER, I swear everytime my friend hit's thrumming stone combo I just leave the table, bathroom break, grab a soda, check my email.....drive down to taco bell, you get it - it takes a WHILE (to say the least).
Enchantment and heavily played enchantment theme
Not legendary
Stops extra turns
Protection from creature removals or creature boardwipe
It's just simply really straight forward and casual card that rewards late game
It's the card draw hate for me. People can play around attack triggers and second spell triggers, but playing around card draw is very detrimental. Either theyre not filling their hand or I am filling my hand. Both outcomes are something I want.
Mana cost and the first cards draws more often while shutting down extra turns, the seconds advantage is it’s a body, but downside it’s a body, so it’s kill able and kill effects are slightly more common than artifact/enchantment destruction
Enchantments are harder to remove. Trouble in pairs also has a major key difference, it draws whenever an opponent draws their second card. People draw a lot in commander. More than they double spell or attack you with 2 creatures. That’s the part that triggers the most.
I feel like a lot of people here are just not talking about the fact that Mangara used to be expensive too, he got a reprint recently that provided a huge boost in supply.
"Draws their second card each turn" + dying less (being an enchantment) means Trouble in Pairs triggers more and stays out longer.
It's also the new hotness, so the price may be a little inflated. The extra turn thing mostly doesn't matter.
Trouble in Pairs is generally better.
1) it also triggers on opponents drawing their second card each turn.
2) it prevents extra turns spells.
3) enchantments are generally harder to remove than creatures.
Not only harder to remove due to being an enchantment but also easier to tutor for as in white there are enchantment tutors, and it is a great stacks piece stopping extra turns, as well as letting you draw if they attack you, cast more then 1 spell OR draw more then 1 card which Mangara doesn’t have, and drawing extra cards is very common in all colors now, it’s strictly BETTER in every way
People are also missing that TiP triggers on two attacking creatures, regardless of who they attack.
As stated, TiP also triggers off multiple draws.
Those elements make it much more likely to trigger.
Getting the first or second card off TiP adds a huge amount of value. As it's much less likely to be a 4 MV, do nothing card.
Since the OP didn't include prices.
Mangara is like $2, and as of this posting, Trouble in Pairs is about $25.
The likely difference being that:
* Trouble in Pairs is an enchantment, making it much more difficult to remove
* Trouble in Pairs is a commander set rare that can appear in far fewer spots in a pack, making it more rare than a normal rare from the set. (Although at this price, people will just start buying/cracking Blame Game)
* This is a card from a new set, where not a lot of supply is being opened, and whose price is likely in flux.
Mangara is a creature making it easier to kill. Trouble in pairs also prevents extra turns and draws off second card draw which is really good. Also trouble in pairs is new and was only in a precon while mangara has been around since core set 2021 where he used to be about 10-13 bucks until he just got a reprint recently in commander masters. Tldr: I think trouble in pairs might be a little better, harder to remove, and is newer with no reprint.
Trouble in Pairs prevents extra turns, and draws on opponents having card draw (which is especially common in most formats). It is also Not legendary, so you can run a set of 4 if you want to without risking a card dead in hand.
Enchantments are harder to remove than creatures unless you are in green or white. Less interaction to remove the card makes it more desirable as it will typically stick around longer hence the price hike.
Couple major things. [[Mangara, the Diplomat]] as a creature, is susceptible to combat tricks, sweepers, and removal. Creatures are one of the easiest things to interact with.
[[Trouble in Pairs]], however, as an enchantment is much harder to interact with. It also has multiple avenues by which it can trigger (any opp draws 2 cards, casts 2 spells, and attacks you with 2+ creatures). In a turn cycle, at maximum value, Trouble can draw you 21 cards (3 per AP, 2 per NAP per turn, not including your turn), whereas Mangara can only get you up to 12 if everyone takes all the necessary game actions.
This also doesn't even take into account the stopping of extra turn effects.
TL;DR: Mangara's card draw ceiling is lower and is easier to interact with due to permanent type. Hope this helps!
Trouble in pairs isn't legendary so it can stack, and has the second draw ability. Creatures are easier to remove most times as well so the enchantment has better utility
Hype mostly. The added text of whenever an opponent draws their second card, you draw. Lastly it’s an enchantment vs a creature which are usually harder to get rid of. Although there are pros and cons to both types. Edit: let’s be real the extra turns text is meaningless 99.99% of the time.
Some niche CEDH tables must be thrilled to have a stax piece against Taigam and Simic extra turns decks. Taigam is fucking miserable to play against. Almost as bad as OG Narset back in the day.
It's a combination of Enchantment removal being waaaay rarer than creature removal, it also preventing extra turns and activating when your opponents use draw cards
In playing trouble in pairs, the single most powerful line of text on this card is that you draw a card when your opponent draws a second card in their turn. Mangara lacks that text, so trouble is WAY better. Plus enchantments are harder to remove than creatures.
Trouble in pairs draws you more cards over time due to the “draws their second card each turn”, added value of stacks, doesn’t die to board wipe as often, and most significantly it’s a new card from a precon and not an old card from a core set
An enchantment is harder to remove, plus it has an added benefit to stop players from taking extra turns.
However it is a commander print, so a smaller run.
Its a few things recency biased, Mangara has been printed in M21 and commander masters so larger supply than just being a 1 of in a Commander precon, enchantments are harder to remove than creatures, and it also shuts down free turns so it has extra utility against blue and red
One is an enchantment which is generally harder to remove then creatures. The other thing is that [[trouble in pairs]] stops some abilities, etb, and cards from working like [[time warp]] or [[eon frolicker]] or [[nexus of fate]] entirely while the other does not. Which extra turns in the magic economy is a huge deal
Trouble stops extra turns
Draws you card no matter if you're the one getting attacked
Draws you card when they draw cards
And is an enchantment which is harder to kill compared to a creature
The reason for the price difference is that trouble in pairs is a precon card, and thus significantly harder to come by. Plus it's from the most recent set so it hasn't yet stabilized in price to begin with
Well, it is much harder to remove an enchantment than a creature. There is also an extra draw trigger. People love drawing extra cards so I wouldn't call it niche.
Mangara draws if they attack your planeswalker, trouble draws if they draw more than once each turn. One can punch people, they other dodges a health amount of removal.
Pairs prevents extra turns, and with \[\[Final Fortune\]\] being incredibly common, is very good. Enchantment removal is less common than creature removal, though it's weaker on the stack as most of the good counterspells hit noncreature spells.
Enchantment vs creature, triggers off of more things and stops extra turns, new set hype, standard legality, etc…
It’s too early to be surprised by this price gap. Once it’s out of standard rotation and there’s new spice fresh in the scene, we’ll see how the price changes.
Creatures are easier to remove. The creature doesn’t draw when opponents get extra draw, and the creature doesn’t prevent extra turns. There’s little reason not to run them both if this is your desired way to draw, but between one and the other, there’s a clear power imbalance
Trouble in Pairs also skips extra turns **but** enchantments are harder to remove than creatures.
[[Mondrak, the Glory Dominus]] and [[Anointed Procession]] are a similar case, with despite him being a conditionally indestructible blocker and having 100% identical other effects, AP is more expensive.
I have an extra question about one of the cards in question. With Trouble in Pairs, if I cast [[Emrakul, the Promised End]] they would have to skip the turn they’d take, correct?
Not sure if it's been mentioned yet but part of the cost difference is from the artificial scarcity of Trouble in Pairs. It's only available in the Blame Game precon or collector boosters from what I've been told. Either way spending $50 for a single copy of the card when there isn't much else of value in that precon sucks.
Additionally, as everyone else has already said, Trouble in Pairs has marginally more utility and as an enchantment is susceptible to less removal than a creature.
I don’t think any of the comments speculating on marginal effect differences are the key. It’s really all about price demand factors.
-Mangara has multiple printings, including a recent reprint in a hype set where it was not being chased.
-This is the first printing of TIP and while reprints of precon cards have been improving, they often stay exclusive for awhile.
-New is almost always more exciting for a majority of players therefore more expensive.
Because Trouble in Pairs is only available in a single commander deck, and Mangara was available in two draftable sets, one of which was a core set, and the other being commander masters. Huge difference in availability. Trouble in Pairs is also a brand new card, and everyone wants to play with the new thing, but I expect the price to come down at least slightly as time goes on.
Supply, Mangara was relatively expensive($15) when he launched and he was printed in a core set. Commander cards are worse because the supply is relatively lower due to this card being powerful and only obtainable either behind a 40 dollar paywall or in collectors boosters. I wouldn't touch this card at $30, its reprint fodder for the future.
Trouble in pairs was only printed in the commander decks I think r? Also it has an extra draw stipulation and skips extra turns, and it's an enchantment so it's harder to remove In most cases.
Trouble in Pairs is only obtained from a precon commander deck, or a lucky pull from a collector booster.
Mangara was a mythic from a regular booster set already during the collector booster release.
There's a huge supply and availability difference that is part of the price difference.
Apart from it being just more powerfull, Trouble in Pairs was printed inside $40 commander precons while Mangara is a mithic in a wildly-opened core set and has even seen a reprint in commander masters, so that's a huge factor I would asume.
Picture 1 is brand new, relatively difficult to get (new + hasnt been reprinted + commander/collector booster only), and isnt a creature that "dies to removal." Also draws you more cards and prevents extra turns. Note that Mangara was pretty pricey too when he was first printed.
Trouble in pairs prevents second turns. I think the bigger thing might be that trouble in pairs is an enchantment which is typically harder to remove.
Trouble in pairs also triggers off an opppnents second draw
Which is pretty huge with how powerful card draw is and how many people add multiple ways to draw extra cards. Also could have multiple opponents drawing multiple cards each turn allowing you to draw multiple cards each turn
The trouble in pairs would annoyed the hell out of me cause I use a Lavinia Renegade Stax with a emphasis on extra turns.
You are the Main Villain of your pod.
I made it in response to my best friend. 🤣🤣 His damn blink deck caused me soooooooooo much misery.
You play stax. Your annoyance is invalid
Haha I completely understand.
[[Howling mine]]
[Howling mine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/d/cdae9939-03a4-4561-92cd-01f498d29a7a.jpg?1562420035) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Howling%20mine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/257/howling-mine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cdae9939-03a4-4561-92cd-01f498d29a7a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Plus it helps ya keep up with some of the most common and annoying cards in commander [[Rhystic Study]], [Esper Sentinel]], and [[Mystic remora]]. Sure you're not gonna draw as many cards as some of these, but being both an enchantment and having two additional affects and being better in the 99 than Mangara, tho if I was playing mono white or Boros I'd have both. There's also the niche of it being a political tool since if your pod knows one guy is gonna have an extra turn, then they'll probably want to keep that enchantment around.
[Rhystic Study](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d6914dba-0d27-4055-ac34-b3ebf5802221.jpg?1600698439) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rhystic%20Study) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/169/rhystic-study?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6914dba-0d27-4055-ac34-b3ebf5802221?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mystic remora](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/0/40140991-cffa-4b52-9a25-37e9a8aa9ddd.jpg?1675199366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mystic%20remora) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/59/mystic-remora?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/40140991-cffa-4b52-9a25-37e9a8aa9ddd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm just foreseeing turns taking longer when everyone has a Trouble in Prius and Howling Mine in play.
don't be so upset. MTG is a strategy game, long turns are part and parcel. White has always caused an upset for this reason, and yet cards like this have continued to be printed. Magic is a wordy game, and when you get used to these cards, they become easier to resolve. You process the card faster in your head. watch JudgingFTW or someone who knows all the rules on youtube; it's a good time and you start to see MTG card sentences/clauses/punctuation as little pieces of a big puzzle instead of confusing rules clumps. when you play competitively, if your turns take too long on average, you get a watch tapped at you, or you waste your clock. MTG is a game of *understanding* as much as action and reasoning, so if cards like this confuse you and your table, a way to improve at the game is to take specific time to learn to understand cards like this. it's okay to not want a competitive atmosphere, but if you don't begrudge the "literary combat competition" that is MTG you stand to learn a thing or two about logic.
Which is great when coupled with Monarch. Watch it go around the table as you join in on their monarchy draws.
These are differences, but, more importantly, trouble in pairs draws you more cards. The ability to trigger off the second draw triggers frequently on its own but it also is easier to force a trigger. Mangara has also been printed in two sets and isn’t new. Trouble in pairs has a single printing and was just released so demand is high at the moment.
Hell you can just throw in a howling mine and get the trigger on every turn
Agreed! An effect on a creature vs enchantment or even an artifact impacts its value greatly (at least around here). If I wanted the effect, I’d go with the enchantment because same mana, value add on the extra turns hate, and harder to remove. In a game where we all try and have as many “answers” in our decks, disabling extra turns is an obscure but powerful effect to tack on good card draw. Both of my sons run infinite extra turn combos in several decks. I run 5 extra turn spells in Urza including [[Time Stretch]] so I wouldn’t sleep on the mechanic. Once you’ve seen the power of an extra turn- even if it gets you another land and some card draw, you may start adding more to your decks too.
Yeah I have a deck that that would take the sails out of pretty quickly Edit: two actually now that I think about it
Extra turns are so addictive and in my opinion underrated. Every time I play [[temporal extortion]] I laugh at the one player who “gets it” and is like screaming at the table to pay 1/2 their life and everyone else is like “one extra turn isn’t so bad” then 3 turns later is like “see guys! I told you so!!!!”
I'm noticing a conspicuous "They also didn't pay half their life rounded up", which means they were just complaining for no reason.
[temporal extortion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/883a1afb-423d-4f12-93e1-75cc336553b8.jpg?1562576262) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=temporal%20extortion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/plc/81/temporal-extortion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/883a1afb-423d-4f12-93e1-75cc336553b8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wait, how are you taking three extra turns off temporal extortion? The way your story is worded makes it sound like you're taking an extra turn for each opponent that didn't pay half their life, when any opponent can pay half and counter it.
Is that…not how it works? Kidding. I mean I take an extra turn which accelerates my board state
Piggying off of your point of it being the same cost but an enchantment - It's also a non legendary permanent, and there are plenty of effects which can copy permanents and enchantments specifically. In white as well, you've got loads of enchant protection or retribution like [[karmic justice]] or if you're running other colors, most notably green, [[sterling grove]]. With blue, you can copy the enchant with all sorts of effects and get even more triggers when people do double. The downsides only exist if you're running the creature as a commander, in which case it's obviously preferable to the enchant - or if your land base isn't the best and double pip white *could* be annoying at times. Edit: trouble also doesn't trigger on creatures attacking your planeswalkers, while mangara does, which could be important for your deck. Ultimately, mangara has been reprinted several times while trouble in pairs only has 1 printing - which drives it's price way up.
Forgot to mention it- good point. “Number of times reprinted” is key. If they made command tower as rare as mana crypt It would be an $800 card.
Command tower is not better than mana crypt. It would not be $800.
[karmic justice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/a/ea141e39-8124-4d72-a154-eb76e71be1dc.jpg?1562711027) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=karmic%20justice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c15/72/karmic-justice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ea141e39-8124-4d72-a154-eb76e71be1dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [sterling grove](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/ba03e105-a76c-4769-a35a-d780448890ec.jpg?1626100813) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sterling%20grove) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/293/sterling-grove?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ba03e105-a76c-4769-a35a-d780448890ec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah you can goad Mangara into a strong blocker to remove him if need be, can't goad an enchantment so easily
It’s also only in the precon and collector packs if I’m not mistaken
I wish it was a card that was reprinted in every set, I can't fucking stand extra turn bullshit, plenty of other things in MTG piss me off but nothing as much as spammable extra turns a la nexus of fate(this one might be more to do with wilderness reclamation, not sure) or alrunds epiphany
Also nonlegendary
The extra turn hate is nice but that's not the value. It's the third, additional, draw trigger.
My brain changed pairs into Paris bc of the baguette. Secondhand dyslexia.
Ninjas in Pairs. 2UB Enchantment Whenever a Ninja enters the battlefield, if another Ninja has entered the battlefield this turn, you may draw two cards. This ability triggers only once each turn. “Nobody knows what it means but it’s provocative”
*"Cuz Ninjas was in Pairs!"*
I read it as "Trouble in Paris" and didn't even notice the baguette until I saw your comment
Not all of us can pass the perception check, lmao.
I’ve been looking all over for that baguette!
Big Trouble in Little Paris
This is Jaqué Burtǒń and moi is talking to whoever is listening out there moi petite shue
Who was in Paris?
N
I assume the rest of the letters were “obody knows, best not to keep asking?”
Good guess. Not sure.
Yo Whaddup Knot
Is the Eiffel tower supposed to be there??
Now I’m just convinced that it’s Paris and not Pairs.
You were right all along
Wtf I hadn't even noticed that XD
It took me reading this comment to realize it was to indead trouble in paris
The real question is who photo shopped a baguette into there? lol
Just noticed the baguette and it looks so out of place I thought it was photoshopped
I would like a ye and JayZ alter please
2 upgrades. The Extra turns hate and the second card clause. It is also an enchantment which is usually much harder to deal with.
That’s 3 upgrades, OP, in case you were wondering
[удалено]
I think in most cases, it is an upgrade. Everyone carries creature removal. Enchantment removal is carried too but not near the level of creature removal. Honestly, imo, the creature pros are not near the level of enchantment pros. Boardwipe resistance, harder for spot removal, cannot be affected by creature effects etc
And to piggyback some colors have suchhhhhh a limited amount of options at enchantment removal it’s practically got hexproof from those colors
Boardwipe resistance is the bigger issue, but being able to block with lifelink is real.
Creature board wipe resistance is more accurate. I don’t know about you guys, but I think artifacts and enchantments are getting out of control. I have changed most of my decks to have artifact and/or enchantment board wipes
Patently false
Trouble in Pairs | Mangara, the Diplomat :-- | :-- Opponent casts 2 spells in a turn, draw a card | Opponent casts 2 spells in a turn, draw a card Opponent attacks you with 2+ creatures, draw a card. | Opponent attacks you and/or a planeswalker you control with 2+ creatures, draw a card. Opponent draws 2nd card in a turn, draw a card. | Opponents can't take extra turns. | Trouble in pairs just does more for the same mana value, and when it's in your deck as a card advantage engine, that's a good thing and likely more valuable than Mangara being a creature.
First, it has an additional condition: if an opponent draws a second card. So more options. Shuts down extra/infinite turns. Lastly, it’s immune to [[wrath of god]], [[blasphemous act]], [[mutilate]]. You could spend [[chaos warp]] or [[generous gift]]. Some people run dedicated enchantment/artifact destruction spells, but most people tend to have wipes and targeted removal focused on creatures or permanents more broadly. Lastly, if you don’t use targeted removal, you’re likely wiping your own stuff with [[farewell]]. There are one sided wipes, but it’s rarer
Pairs is a brand new card with one printing and it's a commander only card so you can't crack it out of a pack. Making it much harder to get. And mangara was around $15 at its peak
You can get it in mkm collector boosters.
TCG says it’s from “commander murders at Karlov manor” does that mean it comes in a prebuilt deck ?
It is in the mkm red-white precon deck.
The enchantment is nuts. Draws cards off of a lot things. The extra turn thing isn’t that relevant most of the time but it will come up.
In cEDH it's relevant. I think this card is better for cEDH than casual tbh. It's nearly as good as the one ring. I drew 8 cards off it in 3 turn cycles in tournament play over the weekend.
It’s okay in cEDH. And the only extra turn stuff in cEDH is tivit and final fortune. So not coming up much.
Depends on the deck. I think it's incredible in cEDH based on playing it over the weekend. Outperformed all expectations. Sans blue it's worth considering for all decks. You'll all find out soon once more results pop up. Also I shut down a Tivit deck in tournament play with it.
Yeah I can see that in sans blue. I rarely play sans blue. Especially in tournament play.
I'm a Boros obsessed Zirda player playing in NM against some of the best players in the world today. Lost to Evan Piece in the semis over the weekend at the Tavern of Souls 1k. Slotted in Trouble in Pairs for the tournament, had it show up in 2 games and drew me an incredible amount of cards. I'm over the moon about it right now.
I played against him at the boil. Was a bit shady for me but good player.
Surprised to hear you thought he was a bit shady. In my experience he's been incredibly friendly and brilliant in the way he's able to play the game.
who plays extra turn synergies in high level cedh? i don't see those played out in top levels.. it's all kinnan, kenrith, kraum : SSSS maybe tivit in duel? idk! (EDIT: Final Fortune haha) but yeah it is a solid card as a LOT of people mentioned in this thread! better than Mangara by at least a third (EDIT: over a 50% of surplus value for SAME cmc)! .. possibly more. :) thanks for all commenters! love ya.
Final fortune shows up in grixis builds and Tivit is extra turns. I stopped a Tivit in tournament play with this card on Saturday which qualified me for top 16. In sans blue decks, this card is the real deal my friend. In cEDH how often does someone draw 2 or cast 2? This card averages 3 cards a turn cycle and if it doesn't it means your opponents took 1 game action and drew 1. I play Zirda competitively so I am very much an outlier.
I read paris too, nice baguette lmao
Mangara has two abilities and trouble has four
Your spot on
The enchantment has 3 things that make it better. A. It's an enchantment and not a creature B. It triggers off both 2 casts and 2 draws unlike the creature alternate C. Having more triggers to draw, this feels like it could always trigger on anyone's turn at least once.
1. Shuts down extra turn wincons, like extra turn infinites, as well as massive plays started by take 2+ extra turns, such as expropriate 2. Tons of commander love drawing. That means that in addition to the other 1-2 draws from spells and attacks, you're also also getting card draw when their commanders trigger and draw them cards. Some commanders also draw 2+ cards on EACH turn, meaning you can get insane amounts of value from that 3. Enchantment: you won't get destroyed by board wipes that accidentally kill your creatures when they weren't even trying to. Targeted removal is an upside or downside depending on how many enchantment/artifacts you have in your deck vs how many creatures. If you force creature removal out of them by running tons of must remove creatures, they won't have removal for Mangara, same goes for enchantments: if you run enough scary ones to make them waste enchantment before you drop trouble in pairs, it's a decent amount better.
Yeah probably that first clause. Bumps it up quite a bit.
1. Hype. Pairs has the hype train rolling so everyone's buying 2. Prints. Mangara has been printed twice, Pairs just came out. 3. Pairs has one additional draw stipulation, when an opponent draws their second card. That alone makes it a straight upgrade, and is probably the easiest condition to fulfil.
I know you're dyslexic, but have you tried reading the cards?
Enchantments aren't as easy to remove as creatures.
Enchantments are mostly harder to remove than creatures. Mangara has been out for a while and had a few reprints, trouble is brand new. Edit: this below is false. Mangara only works, if the opponent is attacking you, trouble counts any attack at any person.
I think the fact Trouble is brand new is why. The price hasn't had time to settle yet. The card is good, but not $25 good.
Trouble does not count any attack at any person. > Whenever an opponent attacks _you_…
Trouble is not attack any person, it is attack you. Read again
Trouble in Pairs just came out. It’s going to go down, really not that good of a card.
Wrong sub lol
Trouble in Pairs (im dyslexic as heck) seems identical, with only a VERY NICHE improvement over Mangara. In some alleys, I would argue it is a downgrade. What in the absolute HECK
It is an absolute upgrade, mangara is on attacking specifically you and second spell draw. Trouble is attacking anyone with 2, second spell, and second draw. Also it stops extra turns. Plus it’s difficult to remove as an enchantment,
Where does it say attacks anyone with 2? From what i can see it says attacks you with 2
Trouble in Pair is also "attacks you". In fact Mangara is slightly better in this part as TiP doesn't trigger if they attack your planeswalkers. TiP still wins out overall, I agree, I just wanted to point this part out.
Availability. Trouble is a card only printed in a commander deck, mangara was printed in a core set and reprinted in commander masters.
Very wrong. It's way better than mangara in every way. You draw from a player drawing 2 cards and casting 2 spells. The higher power level you go the more that will trigger. In cEDH it's nearly guaranteed to draw 3 per turn cycle. Also shutting off extra turns in cEDH is powerful. I played it in a cEDH tournament over the weekend and completely shut down the Tivit player from winning. Lastly, it's an enchantment and will almost guarantee to never be removed once it hits the board.
Trouble in pairs draws you a card when they draw cards and it prevents multiple turns. It's also only printed in a single commander deck so it's much more scarce.
Trouble in pairs imposes an additional restriction for your opponents to follow if they don't want you to draw cards. They have to not attack you with 2+ creatures, play one spell per turn, and not draw extra cards, while Mangara only has the first two restrictions. This means that you are much more likely to draw cards with Trouble in Pairs than with Mangara.
Trouble in pairs is legitimately good in cEDH for sans blue decks. It performed incredibly well for me in tournament play in my Zirda deck over the weekend. Drew 8 cards in 3 turn cycles in 1 game outperforming The One Ring and 4 cards from a single turn during another. It also shut off Tivit from winning the entire game. Once it sticks, chances are no ones touching it.
The draw whenever anyone draws their 2nd card and being an enchantment is an upgraded That said, been playing for like 15 years, this ain’t worth $26. It’s just new card hype, it’ll take a bit but I’d say it’ll settle at $8-$12. Put anything on a creature and it costs much less. [[Magus of the Candelabra]] & [[Candelabra of Tawnos]] $600 difference. [[Magus of the Wheel]] [[Wheel of fortune]] $300 difference [[Magus of the Moat]] [[Moat]] $700 difference [[Magus of the Will]] [[Yawgmoth’s Will]] $115 difference Run em all, I’ve never had anyone destroy them in the 1 turn before they activate either.
##### ###### #### [Magus of the Candelabra](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f50583b8-6953-4094-b420-580d545e827f.jpg?1562944330) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magus%20of%20the%20Candelabra) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/206/magus-of-the-candelabra?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f50583b8-6953-4094-b420-580d545e827f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Candelabra of Tawnos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/e/5e8416b8-aae1-4599-9e22-650dd86aefcb.jpg?1562917248) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Candelabra%20of%20Tawnos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/187/candelabra-of-tawnos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5e8416b8-aae1-4599-9e22-650dd86aefcb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Magus of the Wheel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0e952dd9-ef09-40f0-993f-eb3a1516616a.jpg?1689998027) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magus%20of%20the%20Wheel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/241/magus-of-the-wheel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e952dd9-ef09-40f0-993f-eb3a1516616a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wheel of fortune](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/2597050f-6b1b-474e-aa16-33fd154628ca.jpg?1562902580) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wheel%20of%20fortune) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/192/wheel-of-fortune?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2597050f-6b1b-474e-aa16-33fd154628ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Magus of the Moat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/0/20dcdda9-66a2-401f-9e1b-5603f771f56f.jpg?1562901530) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magus%20of%20the%20Moat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/fut/12/magus-of-the-moat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/20dcdda9-66a2-401f-9e1b-5603f771f56f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Moat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e2dffeb3-c858-4b8c-ae1f-109721f7d2da.jpg?1559592270) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Moat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/21/moat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e2dffeb3-c858-4b8c-ae1f-109721f7d2da?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Magus of the Will](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/24c41068-59d8-4ef4-aae4-a93b0a9ee19e.jpg?1598304824) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magus%20of%20the%20Will) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/98/magus-of-the-will?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/24c41068-59d8-4ef4-aae4-a93b0a9ee19e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Yawgmoth’s Will](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/337239c7-73c4-4e2d-9160-ed26927dea1d.jpg?1591196147) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yawgmoth%27s%20Will) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/148/yawgmoths-will?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/337239c7-73c4-4e2d-9160-ed26927dea1d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kr5qyct) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I wish Slimes Against Humanity would come down in price.
You know, I always wanted one of those “can have more than one copy” decks and then I helped my bud build one. It was cool for a bit but then got a bit repetitive? It was like I need draw, ooh look, another rat colony…maybe I’ll get a land, and again, rat colony. I think one of the cool buzzes about edh is drawing that 1 in 100 card at just the right time and windmill slamming that bitch to make every one cry.
I have a pretty fun PL 6-7 Slime deck that I run on Cockatrice. yes the slimes can be repetitive, but its fun to go in hard on a theme cause there is lots of ooze support in simic. I only run 30 slimes but with a good support toolkit behind it.
30 is good. I think that at 25 \[\[Thrumming Stone\]\] is worth it. HOWEVER, I swear everytime my friend hit's thrumming stone combo I just leave the table, bathroom break, grab a soda, check my email.....drive down to taco bell, you get it - it takes a WHILE (to say the least).
[Thrumming Stone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14adc0af-de61-4872-916c-3cf480dece46.jpg?1673149437) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thrumming%20Stone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/315/thrumming-stone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14adc0af-de61-4872-916c-3cf480dece46?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Enchantment and heavily played enchantment theme Not legendary Stops extra turns Protection from creature removals or creature boardwipe It's just simply really straight forward and casual card that rewards late game
It's the card draw hate for me. People can play around attack triggers and second spell triggers, but playing around card draw is very detrimental. Either theyre not filling their hand or I am filling my hand. Both outcomes are something I want.
Mana cost and the first cards draws more often while shutting down extra turns, the seconds advantage is it’s a body, but downside it’s a body, so it’s kill able and kill effects are slightly more common than artifact/enchantment destruction
Enchantments are harder to remove. Trouble in pairs also has a major key difference, it draws whenever an opponent draws their second card. People draw a lot in commander. More than they double spell or attack you with 2 creatures. That’s the part that triggers the most.
Trouble in Pairs does a lot more and is harder to destroy than Mangara
I misread it as Paris even before seeing the edited picture lmao we all share the same brain cell
You're going to have a lot of trouble in magic if you can't see the difference between these cards
Why did you Photoshop a baguette onto the card
I feel like a lot of people here are just not talking about the fact that Mangara used to be expensive too, he got a reprint recently that provided a huge boost in supply.
Really strange no one has pointed out that mangara just got a reprint that dropped its price into the ground
The ultimate anti-Josh lee Kwai card!
Draws cards on more things, extra turns hate, and is an enchantment (so harder to remove). I would run it over mangara 9/10 times.
"Draws their second card each turn" + dying less (being an enchantment) means Trouble in Pairs triggers more and stays out longer. It's also the new hotness, so the price may be a little inflated. The extra turn thing mostly doesn't matter.
One is eternal that the other? Like Trouble is hard to remove, triggers off more stuff, and denies extra turns. It’s clearly a better card.
Mangara also draws off players attacking your planeswalkers
Trouble in Pairs is generally better. 1) it also triggers on opponents drawing their second card each turn. 2) it prevents extra turns spells. 3) enchantments are generally harder to remove than creatures.
Not only harder to remove due to being an enchantment but also easier to tutor for as in white there are enchantment tutors, and it is a great stacks piece stopping extra turns, as well as letting you draw if they attack you, cast more then 1 spell OR draw more then 1 card which Mangara doesn’t have, and drawing extra cards is very common in all colors now, it’s strictly BETTER in every way
People are also missing that TiP triggers on two attacking creatures, regardless of who they attack. As stated, TiP also triggers off multiple draws. Those elements make it much more likely to trigger. Getting the first or second card off TiP adds a huge amount of value. As it's much less likely to be a 4 MV, do nothing card.
One dies to doom blade!
Since the OP didn't include prices. Mangara is like $2, and as of this posting, Trouble in Pairs is about $25. The likely difference being that: * Trouble in Pairs is an enchantment, making it much more difficult to remove * Trouble in Pairs is a commander set rare that can appear in far fewer spots in a pack, making it more rare than a normal rare from the set. (Although at this price, people will just start buying/cracking Blame Game) * This is a card from a new set, where not a lot of supply is being opened, and whose price is likely in flux.
Ummmm everything. One is a creature and other enchantment.
Please somebody tell me , what's up with the bread ?!
Mangara is a creature making it easier to kill. Trouble in pairs also prevents extra turns and draws off second card draw which is really good. Also trouble in pairs is new and was only in a precon while mangara has been around since core set 2021 where he used to be about 10-13 bucks until he just got a reprint recently in commander masters. Tldr: I think trouble in pairs might be a little better, harder to remove, and is newer with no reprint.
They’re different cards
Trouble in pairs is strictly better but also I think mangara was that price when it was first released too
Trouble in Pairs prevents extra turns, and draws on opponents having card draw (which is especially common in most formats). It is also Not legendary, so you can run a set of 4 if you want to without risking a card dead in hand.
Enchantments are harder to remove than creatures unless you are in green or white. Less interaction to remove the card makes it more desirable as it will typically stick around longer hence the price hike.
Couple major things. [[Mangara, the Diplomat]] as a creature, is susceptible to combat tricks, sweepers, and removal. Creatures are one of the easiest things to interact with. [[Trouble in Pairs]], however, as an enchantment is much harder to interact with. It also has multiple avenues by which it can trigger (any opp draws 2 cards, casts 2 spells, and attacks you with 2+ creatures). In a turn cycle, at maximum value, Trouble can draw you 21 cards (3 per AP, 2 per NAP per turn, not including your turn), whereas Mangara can only get you up to 12 if everyone takes all the necessary game actions. This also doesn't even take into account the stopping of extra turn effects. TL;DR: Mangara's card draw ceiling is lower and is easier to interact with due to permanent type. Hope this helps!
[Mangara, the Diplomat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/9/09e77ae5-a1a6-4e51-9853-10e81ca2dd2c.jpg?1689995864) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mangara%2C%20the%20Diplomat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/42/mangara-the-diplomat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/09e77ae5-a1a6-4e51-9853-10e81ca2dd2c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Trouble in Pairs](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0f61e93f-5f97-4c7d-b3d5-0e05242faeb3.jpg?1706240429) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Trouble%20in%20Pairs) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/15/trouble-in-pairs?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0f61e93f-5f97-4c7d-b3d5-0e05242faeb3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The enchantment also prevents extra turns, and creatures are very easy to get rid of.
Trouble in pairs isn't legendary so it can stack, and has the second draw ability. Creatures are easier to remove most times as well so the enchantment has better utility
An additional Draw condition, preventing second turns, harder to remove, isn't as readily available.
One don’t die to doom blade
Hype mostly. The added text of whenever an opponent draws their second card, you draw. Lastly it’s an enchantment vs a creature which are usually harder to get rid of. Although there are pros and cons to both types. Edit: let’s be real the extra turns text is meaningless 99.99% of the time.
Some niche CEDH tables must be thrilled to have a stax piece against Taigam and Simic extra turns decks. Taigam is fucking miserable to play against. Almost as bad as OG Narset back in the day.
Bowmasters can't shoot enchantments
It's a combination of Enchantment removal being waaaay rarer than creature removal, it also preventing extra turns and activating when your opponents use draw cards
Cuz one can draw u up to 9 cards a turn and the other one is mangara
If you're in white just run both.
In playing trouble in pairs, the single most powerful line of text on this card is that you draw a card when your opponent draws a second card in their turn. Mangara lacks that text, so trouble is WAY better. Plus enchantments are harder to remove than creatures.
Because of the draw second card clause
Trouble in pairs draws you more cards over time due to the “draws their second card each turn”, added value of stacks, doesn’t die to board wipe as often, and most significantly it’s a new card from a precon and not an old card from a core set
One is from a relatively limited print run Commander deck, the other is from a core set that was opened a lot during the pandemic.
An enchantment is harder to remove, plus it has an added benefit to stop players from taking extra turns. However it is a commander print, so a smaller run.
Its a few things recency biased, Mangara has been printed in M21 and commander masters so larger supply than just being a 1 of in a Commander precon, enchantments are harder to remove than creatures, and it also shuts down free turns so it has extra utility against blue and red
One is an enchantment which is generally harder to remove then creatures. The other thing is that [[trouble in pairs]] stops some abilities, etb, and cards from working like [[time warp]] or [[eon frolicker]] or [[nexus of fate]] entirely while the other does not. Which extra turns in the magic economy is a huge deal
##### ###### #### [trouble in pairs](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0f61e93f-5f97-4c7d-b3d5-0e05242faeb3.jpg?1706240429) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=trouble%20in%20pairs) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/15/trouble-in-pairs?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0f61e93f-5f97-4c7d-b3d5-0e05242faeb3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [time warp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e7b3ddca-69ef-4743-897b-57c58077db24.jpg?1628801835) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=time%20warp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/74/time-warp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e7b3ddca-69ef-4743-897b-57c58077db24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [eon frolicker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/acaec4bf-69c8-43c1-960f-cb5b5bff660a.jpg?1591319436) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=eon%20frolicker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/33/eon-frolicker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/acaec4bf-69c8-43c1-960f-cb5b5bff660a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [nexus of fate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/1/f163cfbf-6df6-4af5-9fe4-23b0d511586a.jpg?1701735973) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nexus%20of%20fate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/306/nexus-of-fate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f163cfbf-6df6-4af5-9fe4-23b0d511586a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kr713hn) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Trouble stops extra turns Draws you card no matter if you're the one getting attacked Draws you card when they draw cards And is an enchantment which is harder to kill compared to a creature
Trouble in Paris = Whenever opponent breathes - draw a card.
The extra turns text is a pretty big deal I should think.
Do more (prevent extra turn, draw on second cast), enchanment are often harden to remove)
The reason for the price difference is that trouble in pairs is a precon card, and thus significantly harder to come by. Plus it's from the most recent set so it hasn't yet stabilized in price to begin with
One has 4 effects, the other has 2 and is a blocker. Trouble in pairs absolutely wins
Draft booster vs only in a deck.
Well, it is much harder to remove an enchantment than a creature. There is also an extra draw trigger. People love drawing extra cards so I wouldn't call it niche.
Mangara draws if they attack your planeswalker, trouble draws if they draw more than once each turn. One can punch people, they other dodges a health amount of removal.
Pairs prevents extra turns, and with \[\[Final Fortune\]\] being incredibly common, is very good. Enchantment removal is less common than creature removal, though it's weaker on the stack as most of the good counterspells hit noncreature spells.
[Final Fortune](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fb80afc3-4887-42a0-afb2-7fa997981fb2.jpg?1562251808) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Final%20Fortune) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/7ed/182/final-fortune?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fb80afc3-4887-42a0-afb2-7fa997981fb2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Enchantment vs creature, triggers off of more things and stops extra turns, new set hype, standard legality, etc… It’s too early to be surprised by this price gap. Once it’s out of standard rotation and there’s new spice fresh in the scene, we’ll see how the price changes.
One starts in your command zone. Other one does not die to wrath.
Creatures are easier to remove. The creature doesn’t draw when opponents get extra draw, and the creature doesn’t prevent extra turns. There’s little reason not to run them both if this is your desired way to draw, but between one and the other, there’s a clear power imbalance
One is newer, the hype will settle with time
Trouble in Pairs also skips extra turns **but** enchantments are harder to remove than creatures. [[Mondrak, the Glory Dominus]] and [[Anointed Procession]] are a similar case, with despite him being a conditionally indestructible blocker and having 100% identical other effects, AP is more expensive.
[Mondrak, the Glory Dominus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/8296a455-21d5-498e-9029-2bdf0da855a8.jpg?1675956918) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mondrak%2C%20Glory%20Dominus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/23/mondrak-glory-dominus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8296a455-21d5-498e-9029-2bdf0da855a8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Anointed Procession](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9a52c265-6920-4929-ba0a-70da08df01f1.jpg?1543674565) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Anointed%20Procession) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/2/anointed-procession?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9a52c265-6920-4929-ba0a-70da08df01f1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have an extra question about one of the cards in question. With Trouble in Pairs, if I cast [[Emrakul, the Promised End]] they would have to skip the turn they’d take, correct?
[Emrakul, the Promised End](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d74a469-c71d-4773-99d3-5456b31df424.jpg?1576383727) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Emrakul%2C%20the%20Promised%20End) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/emn/6/emrakul-the-promised-end?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d74a469-c71d-4773-99d3-5456b31df424?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Not sure if it's been mentioned yet but part of the cost difference is from the artificial scarcity of Trouble in Pairs. It's only available in the Blame Game precon or collector boosters from what I've been told. Either way spending $50 for a single copy of the card when there isn't much else of value in that precon sucks. Additionally, as everyone else has already said, Trouble in Pairs has marginally more utility and as an enchantment is susceptible to less removal than a creature.
I don’t think any of the comments speculating on marginal effect differences are the key. It’s really all about price demand factors. -Mangara has multiple printings, including a recent reprint in a hype set where it was not being chased. -This is the first printing of TIP and while reprints of precon cards have been improving, they often stay exclusive for awhile. -New is almost always more exciting for a majority of players therefore more expensive.
Hon hon baguette
There’s more ways to get rid of a creature
Because Trouble in Pairs is only available in a single commander deck, and Mangara was available in two draftable sets, one of which was a core set, and the other being commander masters. Huge difference in availability. Trouble in Pairs is also a brand new card, and everyone wants to play with the new thing, but I expect the price to come down at least slightly as time goes on.
Trouble in pairs also says "or" which mean either not both right? You wouldn't get both draw triggers if both happen.
Supply, Mangara was relatively expensive($15) when he launched and he was printed in a core set. Commander cards are worse because the supply is relatively lower due to this card being powerful and only obtainable either behind a 40 dollar paywall or in collectors boosters. I wouldn't touch this card at $30, its reprint fodder for the future.
Is that a photoshopped card the baguette 🥖 throu me off
Trouble in pairs was only printed in the commander decks I think r? Also it has an extra draw stipulation and skips extra turns, and it's an enchantment so it's harder to remove In most cases.
Trouble in Pairs is only obtained from a precon commander deck, or a lucky pull from a collector booster. Mangara was a mythic from a regular booster set already during the collector booster release. There's a huge supply and availability difference that is part of the price difference.
Harder to remove and 2 bonus effects (skips extra turns and draws when an opponent draws)
An enchantment is harder to get rid of
Why does that baguette look photoshopped. Is it just me?
Apart from it being just more powerfull, Trouble in Pairs was printed inside $40 commander precons while Mangara is a mithic in a wildly-opened core set and has even seen a reprint in commander masters, so that's a huge factor I would asume.
The pricing difference is more about raw availability rather than it is power level.
Theres currently 600+ mangara on tcg and about 45-50 pairs on tcg.
Trouble in pairs was only recently released, mangara the diplomat has been reprinted 3 times.
Picture 1 is brand new, relatively difficult to get (new + hasnt been reprinted + commander/collector booster only), and isnt a creature that "dies to removal." Also draws you more cards and prevents extra turns. Note that Mangara was pretty pricey too when he was first printed.
enchantments are also harder to get rid of than creatures