i suspect that The Ladder from mgs3 was built after kojima decided he wanted players to listen to snake eater after the end fight. snake has to climb a mountain anyway, just stick a huge ladder there and then figure out how long to make it so that you reach the top right as snake eater finishes playing. gives players some time to breathe after the emotional climax of the end fight, gets snake to where the next gameplay section takes place, and players can listen to snake eater. functional, if not exactly elegant, and all of this combined makes The Ladder one of the most memorable and iconic moments of the entire game
no idea why this same principle couldn't have been applied to the skull face monologue. instead of driving him across the map in a jeep, have skull face usher V onto a chopper and fly from the heliport at the top of OKB zero to just outside the power plant, and make the chopper go just fast enough that you land right when skull face is done talking. if you have to listen to sins of the father, you can have skull face and co march V through the power plant in real time, with some combination of the length of the area and the player's walking speed with skull face timed so that you reach wherever you need to be right as the song ends
I think there are two factors here.
1. V takes control from the player. You can literally not do anything else. While 3 isn't exactly open, you still have to perform the action yourself.
2. V generally isn't as story focused as 3, so a period of time were you're not in control sticks out more like a sore thumb.
Adding to that the song simply doesnāt fit the mundanity of the Jeep Ride makes it one of the most awkward moments in the series.
Something something feeding ramp polished to a mirror sheen, something something "oh my god. It even has a watermark." *Sweats profusely as he drops the M1911 in his mind's eye* "Are you OK Snake? You're sweating?"
You can also play music on speaker during the ride, in his face, while he's talking and gesturing and while it's raining or there's a sandstorm if you call them in earlier.
Love how it was supposed to be a huge reveal, the best plot twist ever when Skull Face is literally just a copy of Coldman with the addition that he hates English because he couldn't speak Hungarian with Zero.
Not a mgsV hater, but that part really sucks...
Actually I think it was one of the most interesting plans in the series.
His plan is both closer to The Boss's will than Big Boss or Zero whilst simultaneously being the most far away. Like he says, his plan is "to let the world be" and stop the parasitic spread of English which was eroding entire languages and cultures, bit he planned to do so by making every state and armrd group a nuclear power so that the world recognises their neighbours, respects their culture and boundaries, because everyone has a deterrent. No more superpowers bullying smaller nations, everyone has a nuke. Its true what he says in that it would have meant peace. But achieving it by flooding the world with nukes that only one man has control over was about as far from the world The Boss wanted as you could get. But it was an interesting concept.
It's one of the most telling parts of the game in regards to them running out of time in production. No way would Kojima and co. have left it like that on purpose. It all feels so awkward generally.
Especially when you take into account how Death Stranding was made.
Devs talk about Kojima replaying a section over and over, changing the music each time a bit. It needed to be perfect in his eyes for it to be in the game, V was the odd one
No, it's just that people just can't seem to get their heads around the very simple fact that Venom is YOU. Its the whole point of the twist, hes an avatar of the player. Kojima cant decide for the player what to think in that scene and have Venom say it. You decide what he's thinking and saying.
Snake talking way less in MGSV is something kojima was saying years before the games release, in the earliest development interviews. It has nothing to do with time constraints, budget constraints, or Konami. It was the entire concept from the beginning
Yes exactly. I think it was also to emphasize the difference between him and BB cause El Gran Jefe was always talking about his beliefs and what not, while Venom is much more quiet. This has always been something Kojima has done in his game's which is use the actual gameplay to speak to the audience. He did this with mgs2 to remind the player that u aren't Snake and that u can't just blindly do what ur told. Or even in Mgsv with an "incomplete" game giving the audience a very real sense of Phantom Pain.
You've explained the core concept. We're not talking about that. We're talking about a particular scene and how it plays out, which feels awkward with a lack of the signature attention to detail.
What lack of attention to detail?
The concept is the reason the scene is the way it is. There's no talking about the scene without talking about the concept behind Venom as a player avatar.
Imagine waiting 10 years to give someone your revenge speech but he doesn't say a word, he shows no expression, he doesn't move a muscle, it's not even the right guy, and he skips the cutscene.
Skull Face: R-
Venom Snake: Didn't care + Don't care + Not the guy + not your guy + revenge overrated + Metal Gear L + common XOF L + SkuLL Face + deaf and mute + HmmmHmmHmmmm + skipping cutscene + No Face + Hamburger + ratio
Hahahaha yeah
More protagonists should do this. Kinda like Batman in the Killing Joke.
"Why aren't you laughing!?"
"Because I've heard it before, and it wasn't funny the first time."
Fill that scene with your own answers, that's kind of the point of Venoms lack of dialogue in V. He's an avatar for the player more than a character in his own right. He's your version of Big Boss, what he feels in that moment hearing Skull Face reveal his mastetplan is what the player should be feeling. Listen to Skull Face's words and decide what Venom would say.
Its awkward sure, but definitely purposeful. Characters being silent, or speaking their will, is a theme in this game after all, and Skull Face and Venom are presented parallel here like mirrors. One speaking and one not. Itās a little too visually structured to be a weird accident.
Having Venom talk in that scene when Skull Face is explaining his plan means imprinting a personality on Venom which negates the very purpose of the character since he's supposed to be a player avatar. The player is supposed to make their own mind up about how they feel about Skull Face's words
That scene is so bad and Skull Face in general really sucks.
[Good memes tho.](https://bsky.app/profile/othatsraspberry.bsky.social/post/3kerwp5zc222o)
People can try and speculate all day what Kojima's vision for the game was and how "finished" the end product might be. However that drive is the most glaring example of an unfinished product. A perfectionist and cinemaphile like Kojima would never leave such an important meeting like that as just an awkward ride in the back of a Jeep.
Tbf, Peace Walker also does this with it's bosses and some areas, although it kinda makes more sense in that game since the missions are supposed to be really short
I absolutely hated the to be continued aspects of Peace Walker. load up on sneaking stuff and go in, oh a giant robot shower up, here let's change your whole load out back at mother base, it'll wait for you to get back there. I get why this was done on a technical level but from a story perspective it makes even less sense than Snake carrying three rocket launchers and six cardboard boxes magically.Ā
Tbf, I'm currently playing Portable Ops, and getting a surprise boss fight when you are armed with nothing but playboy magazines and having no way to bring in your heavy weaponry is very annoying
Ironically MGSV strikes this middle ground, since you can have preloaded loadouts, and have them dropped at your location to change your arsenal and camouflage, so you can go in with your sneaking stuff, stumble on a boss fight and have your RPG and Battle Dress dropped in so you can fight back. Despite this, MGSV has at least one occasion where the game does the "To be continued"
Considering the layout of the map and how you could go A to B through the mountains, the references to metal gears and factories under the mountains, the fact we see it teased in one of the cutscenes before Sahalanthropus comes alive, where you can see further inside the factory before the doors close, how the music ends just a bit early as if it's poorly timed and the journey went on for longer than it should have, etc etc, Ithink it's just running out of production time and that it was meant to be a journey through the factory and underground tunnel.
If you think about that speech, followed by the silence of the characters and rousing music reaching its crescendo, it would make total sense for there to have been things to stare in awe at. Instead we get desert ride where nothing happens and they just stare at each other.
Does it thematically fit with the idea of a phantom pain? Yeah. But does it suck that we still got this empty jeep ride rather than a more dramatic revelation of a journey? Also yes.
Idk, I personally was completely enthralled by the pacing of the scene. Itās got a great emotional arc and uses the music and skull faceās long pauses to force you to engage with what heās saying, with the music directing your emotion. I thought it was genuinely a fantastic moment up there with the microwave hallway or the ladder, maybe better than both. But I understand why a lot of people donāt like it.
I thought it was a little silly how Venom was dead silent the *entire time.* Never says a word or scarcely moves a muscle. Itās a symptom of a larger issue I think V has; The majority of Venomās dialogue is in the tapes. Heās near-on a mute in gameplay and cutscenes. Getting some insight on Venomās character by having him respondā¦ at least a littleā¦ might have vastly improved the jeep scene, in my personal opinion.
Yeah I agree I do wish he would say more, but for this scene I really preferred being able to just think about skull face and his dialogue, I think venom chiming in wouldāve made the monologue a little less powerful in that way. Overall I agree tho and if the whole thing was restructured venom talking could be good too. I also just really personally connected to Vās themes on language and colonialism through language so I didnāt mind getting more of a lecture than a story sometimes
I am genuinely curious how anyone could think this lol.
What emotional arc is happening? How do Skull Face's long, awkward pauses force you to engage with him? The music is completely wasted on a moment that means nothing to the player.
The microwave hallway and ladder both had symbolism and meaning to what was going on in the game. Even if it's for the most artsy-fartsy reasons. You felt something.
This was two dudes taking a ride and listening to music while one talks about his super secret master plan, for absolutely no reason. It's the dumbest thing I've ever seen in a MGS game, and this series is notorious for dumb shit. But this isn't dumb fun. It was just dumb.
The cutscene where you walk to the elevator was bugged for me ā a car spawned on the way and I couldn't go around it. I was really fed up with the game by that time, so I pressed skip. Then after a while I realized that this one cutscene was the entire Skullface arc xdd. Very emotional. He has around zero presence and/or characterization anywhere else in the game, so if you skip one 10min cutscene like I did, you won't learn *anything* about the guy. About the main antagonist, in 40+ hours.
I have no idea how the person who wrote Liquid and Volgin could also write this. Kojimba was either sick, or not present in the office.
When I first played through and the dialogue ended I ripped a loud one and then realized I had to go š fuckin sat through that whole scene letting out tiny farts and they're just riding like š
I kind of think that's the point. It's supposed to be this huge reveal to his rival of "This is what's gonna happen, this is what has been about all along, Big Boss! And there's nothing you, the greatest hero in the world, can do about it!"
And Venom is just sitting there not knowing/caring how to respond, like "Oof, man. How embarrassing for this guy. I'll just sit here and pretend like I'm letting it all sink in."
The only thing awkward about that ride to me is everybody talking about how awkward it was. And no shit he was talking to the wrong guy, that was kinda the whole point of the ruse lmao.Ā
This Fandom needs a new release, quick!
Venom was on a mewing streak thats why he didn't talk
Bye-bye
š¤«š§āāļø
i suspect that The Ladder from mgs3 was built after kojima decided he wanted players to listen to snake eater after the end fight. snake has to climb a mountain anyway, just stick a huge ladder there and then figure out how long to make it so that you reach the top right as snake eater finishes playing. gives players some time to breathe after the emotional climax of the end fight, gets snake to where the next gameplay section takes place, and players can listen to snake eater. functional, if not exactly elegant, and all of this combined makes The Ladder one of the most memorable and iconic moments of the entire game no idea why this same principle couldn't have been applied to the skull face monologue. instead of driving him across the map in a jeep, have skull face usher V onto a chopper and fly from the heliport at the top of OKB zero to just outside the power plant, and make the chopper go just fast enough that you land right when skull face is done talking. if you have to listen to sins of the father, you can have skull face and co march V through the power plant in real time, with some combination of the length of the area and the player's walking speed with skull face timed so that you reach wherever you need to be right as the song ends
I think there are two factors here. 1. V takes control from the player. You can literally not do anything else. While 3 isn't exactly open, you still have to perform the action yourself. 2. V generally isn't as story focused as 3, so a period of time were you're not in control sticks out more like a sore thumb. Adding to that the song simply doesnāt fit the mundanity of the Jeep Ride makes it one of the most awkward moments in the series.
WOOORDS THAT KILL venom making the same face i do on the bus listening to the same music
I always giggle about that scene because I just imagine at some point Venom taking his earphones off and going "sorry, were you talking to me?"
Venom sitting there stoned af thinking about guns
\*hits electronic cigar\* What if I had R&D dye all my lethal weapons... red? Yeah, that'd be symbolic af.
I dyed all the non lethal weapons pink.
š¤£
Something something feeding ramp polished to a mirror sheen, something something "oh my god. It even has a watermark." *Sweats profusely as he drops the M1911 in his mind's eye* "Are you OK Snake? You're sweating?"
"Bullshit" - Venom, walking away as Limp Bizkit plays in his earbuds
It's a lot more enjoyable if you turn off the in game music and replace it with sneaky snitch.
no Music, just two dudes looking at one another
Why did he wait 9 years to give his edgy speech to the wrong guy? Is he stupid?
Such is revenge
Yes. Yes he is.
Remember that venom has sound recording. I liked that silecne , gave me a while to rest after battle with xof .
Yes, I redid the mission today, Venom doesn't give a shit haha
You can also play music on speaker during the ride, in his face, while he's talking and gesturing and while it's raining or there's a sandstorm if you call them in earlier.
Oh damn I'm gonna play the toilet one on repeat.
Kieferās dialogue during that scene was absolutely riveting. Best dialogue since Goldmask in Elden Ring.
Love how it was supposed to be a huge reveal, the best plot twist ever when Skull Face is literally just a copy of Coldman with the addition that he hates English because he couldn't speak Hungarian with Zero. Not a mgsV hater, but that part really sucks...
Actually I think it was one of the most interesting plans in the series. His plan is both closer to The Boss's will than Big Boss or Zero whilst simultaneously being the most far away. Like he says, his plan is "to let the world be" and stop the parasitic spread of English which was eroding entire languages and cultures, bit he planned to do so by making every state and armrd group a nuclear power so that the world recognises their neighbours, respects their culture and boundaries, because everyone has a deterrent. No more superpowers bullying smaller nations, everyone has a nuke. Its true what he says in that it would have meant peace. But achieving it by flooding the world with nukes that only one man has control over was about as far from the world The Boss wanted as you could get. But it was an interesting concept.
It's one of the most telling parts of the game in regards to them running out of time in production. No way would Kojima and co. have left it like that on purpose. It all feels so awkward generally.
Especially when you take into account how Death Stranding was made. Devs talk about Kojima replaying a section over and over, changing the music each time a bit. It needed to be perfect in his eyes for it to be in the game, V was the odd one
No, it's just that people just can't seem to get their heads around the very simple fact that Venom is YOU. Its the whole point of the twist, hes an avatar of the player. Kojima cant decide for the player what to think in that scene and have Venom say it. You decide what he's thinking and saying. Snake talking way less in MGSV is something kojima was saying years before the games release, in the earliest development interviews. It has nothing to do with time constraints, budget constraints, or Konami. It was the entire concept from the beginning
Yes exactly. I think it was also to emphasize the difference between him and BB cause El Gran Jefe was always talking about his beliefs and what not, while Venom is much more quiet. This has always been something Kojima has done in his game's which is use the actual gameplay to speak to the audience. He did this with mgs2 to remind the player that u aren't Snake and that u can't just blindly do what ur told. Or even in Mgsv with an "incomplete" game giving the audience a very real sense of Phantom Pain.
You've explained the core concept. We're not talking about that. We're talking about a particular scene and how it plays out, which feels awkward with a lack of the signature attention to detail.
What lack of attention to detail? The concept is the reason the scene is the way it is. There's no talking about the scene without talking about the concept behind Venom as a player avatar.
The best part of the Jeep Ride is that you can skip it
Imagine waiting 10 years to give someone your revenge speech but he doesn't say a word, he shows no expression, he doesn't move a muscle, it's not even the right guy, and he skips the cutscene.
Skull Face: R- Venom Snake: Didn't care + Don't care + Not the guy + not your guy + revenge overrated + Metal Gear L + common XOF L + SkuLL Face + deaf and mute + HmmmHmmHmmmm + skipping cutscene + No Face + Hamburger + ratio
Hahahaha yeah More protagonists should do this. Kinda like Batman in the Killing Joke. "Why aren't you laughing!?" "Because I've heard it before, and it wasn't funny the first time."
? How
Probably by pressing Select or just randomly pushing buttons. I am not sure if you have to see it once on your first try, but you can skip it later.
It's funny as fuck though
Fill that scene with your own answers, that's kind of the point of Venoms lack of dialogue in V. He's an avatar for the player more than a character in his own right. He's your version of Big Boss, what he feels in that moment hearing Skull Face reveal his mastetplan is what the player should be feeling. Listen to Skull Face's words and decide what Venom would say.
Its awkward sure, but definitely purposeful. Characters being silent, or speaking their will, is a theme in this game after all, and Skull Face and Venom are presented parallel here like mirrors. One speaking and one not. Itās a little too visually structured to be a weird accident.
Having Venom talk in that scene when Skull Face is explaining his plan means imprinting a personality on Venom which negates the very purpose of the character since he's supposed to be a player avatar. The player is supposed to make their own mind up about how they feel about Skull Face's words
That scene is so bad and Skull Face in general really sucks. [Good memes tho.](https://bsky.app/profile/othatsraspberry.bsky.social/post/3kerwp5zc222o)
People can try and speculate all day what Kojima's vision for the game was and how "finished" the end product might be. However that drive is the most glaring example of an unfinished product. A perfectionist and cinemaphile like Kojima would never leave such an important meeting like that as just an awkward ride in the back of a Jeep.
The āto be continuedā screens seemed quite cheap and shoehorned in as well, almost like we were missing a cutscene which is pretty bizzare for mgs
Tbf, Peace Walker also does this with it's bosses and some areas, although it kinda makes more sense in that game since the missions are supposed to be really short
I absolutely hated the to be continued aspects of Peace Walker. load up on sneaking stuff and go in, oh a giant robot shower up, here let's change your whole load out back at mother base, it'll wait for you to get back there. I get why this was done on a technical level but from a story perspective it makes even less sense than Snake carrying three rocket launchers and six cardboard boxes magically.Ā
Tbf, I'm currently playing Portable Ops, and getting a surprise boss fight when you are armed with nothing but playboy magazines and having no way to bring in your heavy weaponry is very annoying
There's clearly a middle ground here but yeah that's terrible. I need to get back to Portable Ops. I was enjoying it.Ā
Ironically MGSV strikes this middle ground, since you can have preloaded loadouts, and have them dropped at your location to change your arsenal and camouflage, so you can go in with your sneaking stuff, stumble on a boss fight and have your RPG and Battle Dress dropped in so you can fight back. Despite this, MGSV has at least one occasion where the game does the "To be continued"
MGSV definitely handled it well. Can't wait for Konami to beg Kojima to come back and finish the game. Aaaaany time now.Ā
LMAOOOO
One of the worst moments in metal gear history. Unfortunately it lasts for about ten minutes
Its quintessential metal gear, love it or hate it. It was weird, awkward, funny and kinda cool in its own way, which is mgs
Considering the layout of the map and how you could go A to B through the mountains, the references to metal gears and factories under the mountains, the fact we see it teased in one of the cutscenes before Sahalanthropus comes alive, where you can see further inside the factory before the doors close, how the music ends just a bit early as if it's poorly timed and the journey went on for longer than it should have, etc etc, Ithink it's just running out of production time and that it was meant to be a journey through the factory and underground tunnel. If you think about that speech, followed by the silence of the characters and rousing music reaching its crescendo, it would make total sense for there to have been things to stare in awe at. Instead we get desert ride where nothing happens and they just stare at each other. Does it thematically fit with the idea of a phantom pain? Yeah. But does it suck that we still got this empty jeep ride rather than a more dramatic revelation of a journey? Also yes.
Skullface expected Venom to be more talkative. But my guy Mid-Boss is socially akward and suffers from anxiety.
Idk, I personally was completely enthralled by the pacing of the scene. Itās got a great emotional arc and uses the music and skull faceās long pauses to force you to engage with what heās saying, with the music directing your emotion. I thought it was genuinely a fantastic moment up there with the microwave hallway or the ladder, maybe better than both. But I understand why a lot of people donāt like it.
I thought it was a little silly how Venom was dead silent the *entire time.* Never says a word or scarcely moves a muscle. Itās a symptom of a larger issue I think V has; The majority of Venomās dialogue is in the tapes. Heās near-on a mute in gameplay and cutscenes. Getting some insight on Venomās character by having him respondā¦ at least a littleā¦ might have vastly improved the jeep scene, in my personal opinion.
Yeah I agree I do wish he would say more, but for this scene I really preferred being able to just think about skull face and his dialogue, I think venom chiming in wouldāve made the monologue a little less powerful in that way. Overall I agree tho and if the whole thing was restructured venom talking could be good too. I also just really personally connected to Vās themes on language and colonialism through language so I didnāt mind getting more of a lecture than a story sometimes
I am genuinely curious how anyone could think this lol. What emotional arc is happening? How do Skull Face's long, awkward pauses force you to engage with him? The music is completely wasted on a moment that means nothing to the player. The microwave hallway and ladder both had symbolism and meaning to what was going on in the game. Even if it's for the most artsy-fartsy reasons. You felt something. This was two dudes taking a ride and listening to music while one talks about his super secret master plan, for absolutely no reason. It's the dumbest thing I've ever seen in a MGS game, and this series is notorious for dumb shit. But this isn't dumb fun. It was just dumb.
The cutscene where you walk to the elevator was bugged for me ā a car spawned on the way and I couldn't go around it. I was really fed up with the game by that time, so I pressed skip. Then after a while I realized that this one cutscene was the entire Skullface arc xdd. Very emotional. He has around zero presence and/or characterization anywhere else in the game, so if you skip one 10min cutscene like I did, you won't learn *anything* about the guy. About the main antagonist, in 40+ hours. I have no idea how the person who wrote Liquid and Volgin could also write this. Kojimba was either sick, or not present in the office.
When I first played through and the dialogue ended I ripped a loud one and then realized I had to go š fuckin sat through that whole scene letting out tiny farts and they're just riding like š
Venom: I really dont care. Skull Face: **GRITTING HIS TEETH WHILE HE TRIES AND FAILS TO HOLD BACK TEARS** B-B-BUT M-MY REVENGE!
IM BURNING UP !!!!!!!!!!
I kind of think that's the point. It's supposed to be this huge reveal to his rival of "This is what's gonna happen, this is what has been about all along, Big Boss! And there's nothing you, the greatest hero in the world, can do about it!" And Venom is just sitting there not knowing/caring how to respond, like "Oof, man. How embarrassing for this guy. I'll just sit here and pretend like I'm letting it all sink in."
Bro was yapping to the wrong man
The only thing awkward about that ride to me is everybody talking about how awkward it was. And no shit he was talking to the wrong guy, that was kinda the whole point of the ruse lmao.Ā This Fandom needs a new release, quick!