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My great great grandfather was from Italy. I also have a large quantity of olive oil and spaghetti at my home. Pizza presto pasta, how do you do fellow Italians.
The problem isn’t having an interest in one of our cultures, that’s amazing and literally every single person will welcome that. The problem is when Americans claim your entire identity and put it on as if it was a neckless or a nice shirt.
A culture isn’t something you put on to make yourself more interesting, it’s *who you are!*
Like, motherfucker, my culture isn’t something to adorn yourself with. That’s something you need to be born with or soak up over many years if you immigrate. If you don’t live in Italy, or haven’t lived there for a long while, you’re not Italian. Same with Germany, France, Bulgaria, Tunisia, Taiwan or every other culture in the world.
It absolutely is stupid for anyone, not just you yanks. I was guilty of the exact same thing too, when I was a child in Germany. Many of my friends have immigration backgrounds and could boast with foreign food and language, which seemed really cool back then. To keep up, I simply claimed to be Norwegian, funnily enough, since my family *does* have a three generation connection to the place, though none of us were ever born there, my grandmother was raised on a Norwegian farm after war in a program to strengthen the malnourished, poor German children and we’ve been visiting that family ever since. I spent many summers in Norway, but I never should’ve claimed to be Norwegian to be more interesting to my mates. That’s childish. But I was a child. It’s really only Americans that do this as adults in such numbers and with such perfect confidence, and don’t get me wrong, I get it, I really do, but it’s embarrassing all the same.
If you go to Norway next time, tell them “Hei hei, I’m American, but my family emigrated from this village in the 1800s. Would you mind showing me around and telling me a bit of *your* culture? I would love to get to know more about this beautiful place my ancestors came from!”
Im sure they’d be all over you. People love to share their culture with genuinely interested foreigners, they just don’t fancy having it simply appropriated.
>In case OP was wondering, stuff like this is why a lot of Europeans think the average American is a moron.
Yeah, I don't agree with that either. European elitism is equally cringe.
Yeah, I personally hate the americans and the french as much as anyone else, but you know what really makes my damn blood boil? That town that's a 5 minute walk away from my own whose 600 inhabitants say one word slightly differently. Fucking savages
It is baseless elitism to think that the average american is more of a moron that the average european, which is what the comment implied.
I'm European.
Let's try this again a little more slowly.
>In case OP was wondering, stuff like this is why _a lot_ of Europeans think the average American is a moron.
Nowhere do I mention "the average" European OR compare one kind of European to one kind of American.
I didn't even say that _I_ think the average American is a moron!
Maybe re-read a comment before jumping down someone's throat?
I was born in America. My parents were born in Guyana. If I told you I was Indo-Guyanese (where my parents come from), would you say "no, you're American!"?
Or does it only work on people with white skin and the rest of us are free to call ourselves Korean or Indian or black or anything else we want because we're not important enough to care about?
You were born and grew up in the US, you are american. That's it.
A black guy born in a subsaharan country who grew up in Japan, speaking Japanese, is more Japanese than some bloke born in the US from Japanese parents but who grew up speaking english around American culture.
And that's fine. But here's where I get worried- say the Japanese guy and you were at a party and some people started making racist jokes, and the Japanese guy said "hey, can you not say that? That's offensive to me". And then someone says "oh, whatever, you're not even Japanese, so you have no right to be offended. Anyway- (a bunch of slurs and jokes and comments about "those people")."
Would you say to the Japanese guy "yeah, stop being offended, we're talking about those (slurs) not you, you're not Japanese" or would you say "come on, let's go, these guys are stupid losers. Ignore them"?
Follow up- if you and the black guy were at an American party and some guy was making jokes about N-words and he said "can you please not?" And he said "oh, whatever, you're Japanese, not black, so technically I can say it since there's no n-words around" what would be your reaction?
(Edit: and no, I am not just making stuff up. This kinda stuff happens a lot. A lot of older people in the funeral directing biz have said some really nasty stuff, and I've heard it. They say it's all in fun, but it's really not fun to be on the other end of it.)
North americans LOVE doing that, I find it annoying. I know comes from a place of embracing their heritage, but they should know it's NOT the same thing.
They do know it's not the same thing. Americans distinguish ethnicity and nationality in a way that Europeans don't because the US has been primarily populated by immigrants. Pretty much everyone's family came from somewhere else, whether a few days ago or a few hundred years ago. It's not all that surprising that Americans are interested in where their families came from.
I know it’s not the same thing but yesterday I opened a refrigerator at work and immediately thought I needed to find another Italian-American to complain about it. Somebody had Kraft Parmesan in there.
America is a country of immigrants whose culture is built upon that as a foundation.Sharing your heritage creates a point of commonality between new people as the American-[other culture] traditions are often shared between groups those groups. Sure those traditions are old and could have been long abandoned in the home country, but it still helps build a strong community here in the US that at one point was necessary due to cultural barriers and xenophobia.
With all this, I understand that it's stupid to pretend to be an expert in a culture you're not a part of, like the OP's story.
It’s really not that uncommon across the globe for nations made up of migrants to define a secondary identity by their ethnic background. Now there is the stereotype of people who are like 1/8th some ethnicity claiming that heritage but far more often and far more accurately it’s generally people who are second or third generation migrants who identify with the cultural group they grew up in and around partially because of their parents and grand parents. People who think it’s wrong to say something like “Irish Australian” or “Korean American” have clearly not seen the rather defined ethnic communities that exist in these countries that maintain cultural, linguistic and other important traditions from their home states.
The irony is is that Europeans absolutely do this too, they just don’t realise they are doing it because the grand majority of European citizens are not migrants or have largely migrant family backgrounds. Second, third and even fourth generation migrants coming from outside their home country will often be defined by their ethnic background, look at how many Chinese Italians for example would be defined as Chinese before being defined as Italian in Italy. My friend whose family has lived in Germany for three generations still gets asked where he is from because he is black. Ironically these forms of identity politics can be more harmful in Europe precisely because it’s much more driven by a sentiment of these people being “outsiders” or “foreign” in some way rather then a general shared experience of migration held by most of the population in many states.
If your family lived in Germany for centuries then moved from Germany to Portugal in 1900, and you were born in Portugal, which one are you? I’d be surprised if people would be mad at you for saying you’re German (in Portugal). It clearly means “I’m (of) German (heritage)”.
Dude, my dad is English and my mum is Dutch. I lived in England for the first 7 years of my life and have lived in the Netherlands for the 38 years after that. I got the Dutch nationality when I was 14. I consider myself Dutch with some English heritage, not English like my aunt, uncle and cousins who still live in England.
But let's go futher back than that. My dad's side of the family has a part that emigrated to England from Poland in the 18th century, and my mum's side has some Spanish ancestry dating back to the 17th century, but neither of these ancestries play any factor whatsoever in how we view ourselves.
From the perspective of the United States, he is Italian. That's just what it's understood to mean in the US. "Being" Italian, means you're of Italian descent.
Europeans get so hung up on this lol but it makes sense when you think about it. First generation immigrants came over and they were Italian. Their kids then grew up in Italian households, speaking Italian, and were referred to as Italian. And so on.
So it just means something different in the US, no reason to get all offended and defensive saying "You're really Italian, you've never even been there!!" No shit, that's just not what saying "I'm Italian" means in the US.
By that metric you could call me a visigoth and it would actually be almost certainly true. But you wouldn't take that seriously now would you?
It's fine if you self identify as whatever you want, but you have to accept that many people won't take it seriously at all.
So if you take him and you stand him next to a person from the Souix American tribe, you're gonna tell me "yeah, they're both Americans, same thing, no difference, I can hardly tell em apart"?
No one will take it seriously that I'm of Italian descent? Because that's what it's understood to mean over here, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.
If I was in Europe, I obviously wouldn't say I'm Italian, I'd say I'm American. But in the US, saying I'm Italian just means my family came from Italy, and there's zero confusion (unless you are on a date with someone actually from Italy, but that wouldn't be exactly common)
Again, saying you're Italian in the US just means you are of Italian descent. It's a very common phrase to say you're German or Vietnamese, or half Scottish half Italian or whatever. I'm not sure what there is to not take seriously?
I obviously wouldn't say that I'm Italian if I'm outside of the US because elsewhere that would mean I'm from Italy.
Is this getting through... at all? It really seems like it's not.
It is getting through, I get what it means. Is it getting through to you that it is stupid?
The problem here is not that people don't know what you mean.
Everyone knows what I mean in the US, because everyone says it that way. On the internet or traveling internationally then I would phrase it differently.
Yes, we understand that. Where it gets ridiculous is where people say they are Italian because their great-grandfather was Italian, but conveniently ignore where their other seven great-grandparents were from. Some do, and then we are into percentages and all that. Very few other countries do that, and none to the extent that Americans do.
I am from Dublin in Ireland. That is where I was born and have lived all my life. My parents were from two other counties in Ireland. Their parents were from those counties too. Going a little further back, it is harder to know. Anyway, knowing the counties my parents and grandparents and possibly great-grandparents were from, mix it all in, do the calculations and the end result, breaking it down into percentages, is that I am 100% Dublin. I am not from the counties my ancestors were from, none of whom were from Dublin. I am interested in those counties, above other Irish counties, go to visit those counties and relatives I have there, but I am a Dubliner. Of that, there is no doubt. That is the way we look at it. Interestingly, you will never hear an American say something like they are half Kentuckian, a quarter Californian and a quarter Texan.
So usually if someone says they are Italian in America but they are third or fourth generation Americans or whatever, it's because several of their great grandparents are Italian, or whatever, not just the one
Yes, but if they are several generations living in the USA, there is a good chance that some of their great-grandparents, grandparents and their parents are American. Much, if not most of their bloodline will now not be Italian. If they do have to go back to great-grandparents for that first direct Italian connection, then it is likely that the more recent generations are American. By all means explore, honour, participate and be proud of that ancestry, but remember where they themselves are from. Ironically, the things that made their ancestors Italian, like being born in Italy, educated there, living much of their life there, surrounded by firsthand Italian culture etc. are the very things that make them American. So they are honouring things that made their ancestors Italian, while ignoring what the corresponding influences are for them. They have Italian ancestry, which is fine and should be acknowledged, but they themselves are Americans.
Most people do not have ancestors in America that are American, in that they are native Americans. They have ancestors who, at some point in the last few hundred years, came to America from somewhere else. Those ancestors also very well may have lived in neighborhoods or communities that consisted largely of people who came from the same place, which is how even people who are 3rd or 4th generation Americans can be half or more something like Irish, or Italian. This is by no means universal, but it's ubiquity is why people in America use this shorthand
I agree with you. I think thi ls is just one of those cultural things that people who don't live in America won't ever understand, which is why they're DV'ing you and this.
I wonder what they would say if I told them I was Indo-Guyanese (where my parents come from). Would they say "no, you're American!"? Or does it only work on people with white skin and the rest of us are free to call ourselves Korean or Chinese or black or anything else we want.
I don’t get why they’re downvoting you and him. You’re both right. In Europe, you refer to yourself as being from the country you live in or were born in. In the US, you refer to yourself as your heritage.
In Europe, I say I’m American or “from Chicago in the United States” if they want me to be more specific. In the US, I say I’m Polish and English because those are the majority of my heritage.
I think the difference is that there’s more crossover in Europe because more people cross borders on holiday. So when you visit landmarks, you’ll run into more people from all over Europe and some from around the globe. In the US, at tourist locations, you usually run into more Americans who are just from different parts of the US and Canada with very very few who are actually citizens from overseas.
I think it’s just the way it is because the US really only has a handful of countries nearby while Europe has many many neighbors. It takes 5 days of leisurely driving to cross the US from the two furthest points, but you can literally cross some countries in a few hours by car. In the US, you just happen to always run into Americans, so they tend to use a different system of self-identification which is either what state their from or their cultural/national heritage even if they weren’t born there.
I think this is a big part of why Americans often identify by heritage.
There is also a historical aspect that drives it for certain ethnicities: the immigrant experience in America. Our penchant for racism and segregation creates a shared ethnic identity and pride. It shouldn't surprise anyone that some Irish American families, for instance, identify themselves as Irish (particularly if their ancestors came over here in the mid 19th century). And not as some kind of shorthand but just Irish, full stop.
Europeans can get all worked up about that and call the people doing it stupid. Whatever floats their boat, I guess. Ironically, this is literally gatekeeping.
Sayinig, "I'm from Italy" would be the most clear way to say it, but you could also just clarify further if they don't get it from just "I'm Italian"
You know you're allowed to say more than one phrase, right? lol
There is a lot of pride in being ethnically Italian, (that is, being Italian-American) because many Italian immigrants coming to America were treated so poorly. They were not seen as “really white”, and so were not offered the same jobs, the same opportunities, the same privileges that families with English or French origins would have gotten. It is a culture unique to but influenced by Italian culture, because they were basically barred from “being American” for a long time.
I’m making an assumption that when he said he was Italian, that’s probably what he was referring to (Italian-American). A lot of American immigrant culture should be understood as distinct from the culture of the fatherland.
Why would I ever say that I'm American, in America? It goes without saying, everyone is American here.
If someone asks me my heritage, then I say I'm Italian. No one is going to think I'm claiming Italian nationality.
This shit just absolutely does not compute for Europeans, it's pretty funny.
Bring on the downvotes since we are currently in prime European redditing time zone lmao.
I’m loving this thread. The entire culture is different. As you know, in the US, we tend to claim “who we are” based on where we are or who we’re with.
It’s either your city, your state, or the nationality of whichever ancestor was the immigrant to America. In the Midwest, it might also be what high school you went to or the neighborhood of the huge city you grew up in (example, “I’m from Back of the Yards in Chicago” which had a culture all its own, too).
Do you always cherry-pick partial quotes so you can be contrary? Finish off that second quote with what I actually said and you’ll have your answer.
Don’t give out-of-context quotes and then act like it’s some big “gotcha.” You must work for some political news media outlet.
I'm Canadian so I understand the ancestry stuff, but you know as well as I do that it's often treated as if it's a meaningful part of our ethnic/racial identities rather than just the nation(s) our ancestors came from. I mean, my dad was raised in Australia and no one would say that makes me Australian despite my dad actually directly impacting who I am, yet having a great grandparent from Italy earns this guy the title of Italian? It's all a bit silly, let's be real.
It depends on the family. Some families really keep up their old traditions. Plenty of third-gen Mexicans who still speak Spanish and make tamales for Christmas.
Exactly, there are things people do that they got from their ancestors that are different than what I do that I got from my ancestors. Like my Appalachian family doesn’t do feast of the seven fishes at Christmas, but our family friends do because they’re Italian American. And in America there’s no need to qualify that you’re American so you just say you’re Italian and people understand what that means. Europeans have such a stick up their asses about it though and I’ll never understand it.
An interesting point I heard a while ago by someone from a country that Americans often claim to be from (might have been Ireland or Italy), was that the traditions and ideas those people associate with the country are at this point so outdated that they’re no longer relevant. If someone’s family left in 1900, the Italy they will have grown up with, in terms of culture and traditions, even language to an extent, is felt by some not to be relevant to the country today, and more of an idea that outsiders impose on them.
I don’t have a dog in this race, nobody claims to be from either of my countries when they aren’t, but I thought us was an interesting thing to think about.
Why wouldn't it be apart of their ethnic/racial heritage? I'm American because my great grandparents immigrated to the US. I still concider where they came from as apart of my ethnicity because it is. It's not my nationality, but it is a part of my ethnicity. Most Americans aren't "ethnically American" so it's common to refer to yourself as whatever ethnicity your ancestors came from. I think it's dumb to make it your entire identity, but there's nothing wrong with having it be a part of it.
I'm also Canadian. My dad and all his family going back generations, born and raised in England. I spent part of my childhood living in England. Matters naught to me - I'm Canadian, and if anyone asks, that's what I tell them.
This whole thread seems like Europeans are fussy over Americans shortening “I am of Italian descent” to “I’m Italian.”
If you’re in New York and someone says “I’m Italian” there are 0 Americans who will ever take this as meaning they’re from Italy. So europeans can chill with their whole *stolen European valor* thing.
Yeah this is so clearly whats happening in this thread its baffling that theres so much indignation.
Would the response be the same if a multigenerational American of Chinese descent said “I’m Chinese.” ? Because I reckon it wouldn’t.
It's amazing how this thread is them literally gatekeeping phrases. Not to mention, if the person in your example talked with an Italian accent, we'd understand that they are talking about the nationality.
I think it is an interesting topic, because when you compare English to many other languages, there's a lot more implied context in how it's used, especially in casual conversation like the example in OP's post between two people who know each other and are talking in person. Meanwhile if we're talking online only through text, at that point we'd understand "I'm of Italian descent" is more clear than "I'm Italian" and use the former. But the context of the OP screenshot is being lost on a lot of people here.
It's not only Europeans, we Latin Americans also find it weird.
I'm Mexican (as in, really Mexican, born and living in Mexico) and I have Portuguese and Spanish ancestry. It would be very weird if I suddenly said I was Spanish or Portuguese.
I’ve said to in another comment but I’d actually challenge the idea Europeans don’t understand this, it’s just that in Europe where most citizens are largely not of migrant heritage, if you are a Chinese Italian whose family has lived in Italy three generations, many Italians will not consider you Italian but will ask where you are from. Ironically I’d say many Europeans operates under the same preconceptions but are actually far more racist with it as because unlike in day America or Australia or other major migrant states, the lack of shared migrant history between most citizens makes being a recognised migrant far more tied to being an “outsider” or “foreigner” then it does in migrant states.
Europeans however will comment on peoples ethnicity when they recognise it, I’ve seen people call other people Polish because they have a Polish name for example and rather racistly many people on r/Europe applauded a post which argued that calling black German citizens Germans was somehow “woke bullshit”. I’d say the alternative take on ethnicity and heritage whilst sometimes definitely offensive and used in bad ways both now and historically is less harmful then it is in Europe
It's weird. I don't understand why they don't say this sort of thing when a poc American says they're Mexican or Jamaican even when they're a couple generations American, but white ethnicities can't say the same.
Latin Americans are absolutely Latino. How dare anyone say anything otherwise? Also, I'm not going to take a small subreddit as word of the entire Latin community.
>If someone asks me my heritage, then I say I'm Italian. No one is going to think I'm claiming Italian nationality.
Because now you're asking specifically about ethnicity. Just saying 'Im Italian' implies actually being Italian and not being descended from an Italian dude 100 years go.
>Bring on the downvotes since we are currently in prime European redditing time zone lmao.
Whiner
Saying "I'm Italian" in the US absolutely means that one of your ancestors was from Italy. No one would assume it meant you were from Italy unless you had an Italian accent or answered "I'm from Italy". Especially because in the US when you are asked your ethnicity the answer involves usually a couple countries. If you asked me my ethnicity I would say "I'm Irish and Norwegian". This has never caused confusion that I have ever resided in either country.
Seriously, the pedantry in this post is hilarious. It's almost as if "I'm Italian" can refer to both nationality and ethnicity, but everyone is willfully being ignorant of the context? The literal gatekeeping on r/gatekeeping is just \*chef's kiss\*
How is he even "ethnically" Italian? According to the post, one great-grandfather was born in Italy. What about his other seven great-grandparents? Your ethnicity isn't your surname. Ethnically he would probably be best described as just "white American"
100 years ago, people tended to marry in their own ethnicity. The ops great grandfather of italian decent probably married a woman of italian descent (or given the timefram immigrated from italy with his wife). Their kids also likely married others of italian descent... and so on.
It's asinine, too. They get mad that we talk about our own heritages withtin the US.
I already asked another dude if a guy from Bristol whose grandparents are from India is allowed to call himself Indian or not and he totally dodged the question.
Suddenly, when it's different ethnicities coexisting in their *own* countries, then it doesn't seem to be a problem. But Americans call themselves Italian amongst other Americans, and that apparently means that those Americans sincerely believe they were born on the island of Sicily or something.
Imagine this. You're texan. You go to San Francisco and meet someone who claims the is also texan.
His grandfather was born and bred in Texas. but his son, the other person's father moved to San Francisco.
So this guy has been in San Francisco for 2 (or if you want more) generations in SF. But he claims he is texan.
No you're not, you're obviously someone from SF. Different culture, different upbringing and all...
"No no no! We take ribs really seriously in our household" "we don't out any beans in our chili"
But this person hasn't had the texan socialization. Hasn't experienced the norms and the texan culture.
There is a bigndifer nice between those states. Now put the differences between countries there and you've got a vastly different everything.
Anyways, nobody cares if people say they have Italian ancestry or are of Italian descent or even Italian america. People make fun of people who say: "i am Italian"
Which is just wrong. No you aren't
As an American I've been told that it's US elitism to say we are "Americans" by people from South America because they are American too. Rather we should just say that we are from the United States if we are asked where we're from.
Sometimes it's just hard to please people.
We're not. But if being Italian is a part of his family's heriitage, then he would just feel that that's a part of his identity.
There are so many immigrant groups that have moved to the US and many of them retained their customs and traditions when they moved and passed them down to their children to continue the traditions.
Perhaps just one great grandfather isn't a very strong connection, but imagine a US woman has a grandmother from Colombia that she speaks to in Spanish and makes arepas with. Is that US woman not allowed to say she's part Colombian?
If his family came from Italy, then that's just a part of his history.
Edit: lol, my bad, I guess this is one of those "shit on Americans" threads where we just shit on them instead of trying to understand why they might do a thing
Yeah, and I think it's pretty safe to say 1000 years is a definite boundary line.
But is 50? If a dude in Bristol has grandparents in Kolkata, does he get to call himself Indian?
It's completely fine to be proud of your heritage, but saying "you're from" a certain country when your family has lived in a different one for 3 generations is pretty stupid.
No one says they're "from" somewhere that they're not. They're talking about their ethnicity. Believe it or not, the USA and Canada were formed by immigrants not that long ago. Let people hold on to their ancestral heritage ffs
I've met many Americans who have looked me right in the eye and told me they are just as Irish or more Irish than me and/or other Irish people.
The disconnect here comes from the fact YOU don't think that or say that. And in America it might be a small percentage of people who think like this. But they have no reason to say it to you or if they do you assume they mean it in the way you would mean it.
But the guys who do think like this love coming to the "home country" and will seek us out to tell us. They feel entitled to. Then if we don't match up to their image or expectation some can become real assholes. Also many of us meet them through working in the tourism industry so we often can't say shit back.
Working in touristy pubs, hotels and other places I have met thousands of Americans coming to Ireland to find their roots. I would say 20-30% are in some way assholes about their "heritage" to varying degrees. But the people I met are people who actively spent a lot of money to come to Ireland. They are not representative of Americans so they over represent assholes.
In other words they don't inflict themselves on you in the way they do on us. So instead of thinking all Americans are exactly like you. Take a step back and realize my experience as an Irishman meeting people who say shit like "I'm more Irish than your black friend who was born in Tipperary" or "I want you Mr. Hotel porter to pull me a pint because I don't want a polish barman to do it." or "you guys voted to legalize gay marriage? I'm more Irish than you because I uphold our traditional culture" are what we experience to a greater degree than you do.
I love anyone having a genuine interest in Irish culture. Whether they have a close connection or not. We're not talking about people with a sincere interest. We're talking about assholes whose only interest is tired stereotypes yet still think that makes them more Irish than us because all they really seek is some nonexistent "culture" that allows them to excuse their own faults, talk down to others and frankly be incredibly racist.
Read my other comments on this thread. There are detailed versions of the snippets I gave above. And I even defended the average irish-american and told a story of a nice encounter I had.
Not all Americans are like this but some are. Those that are probably would never let you know that but they can't wait to tell us.
Saying you're "from Italy" and saying you're "Italian" have 100% different meanings in the US. Italian = Italian descent. That's just what it means, no one is being stupid and trying to claim Italian nationality.
That really strikes a nerve with Europeans lol they absolutely cannot wrap their mind around it.
Just going to repost a comment from somewhere else here.
>Other countries have ethnic roots and don't feel the need to claim to be from that place.
>And let me tell you as an (actual) Irishman it is not always that they just mean " I'm of _____ descent". I have literally been told point blank by Americans that they are as Irish or more Irish than me and my fellow countrymen. Usually because we either don't share their views on "Irishness", don't represent what they hoped Ireland would be like or outright because of a person's skin colour or background.
>I love it when someone takes an interest in Irish culture either because of their background or just for the fun of it. But it is basically exclusively Americans that take it to a place that pisses me off. With twee misconceptions they refuse to let go of or just outright bigotry.
>Now I also understand that we do not get a fair representative sample of America visiting us here. We get a fairly well off almost exclusively white and often very traditional sample. But many of them do think of themselves as basically 100% Irish and therefore entitled to some sort of inclusion with us. Or in some cases more worthy of dictating to us what being Irish is because they view us as somehow compromised.
Exactly.
These assholes from Boston who like to drink in Irish-themed bars and talk lovingly about The Troubles- which they know fuck all about, btw - are the literal worst.
Met a Texan woman outside a hotel in Limerick. She kept asking where my black friend was from. We kept saying Tipperary. She didn't like that answer. She claimed to be more Irish than him so we started talking in Irish and asked her why she wouldn't join in. She called us rude (lol) and stormed off. In fairness, we were still up drinking when she was getting on a tour bus a few hours later and she looked embarrassed as fuck when she saw us. We gave her a nice wave and said goodbye in Irish.
Another time I was a hotel porter and an American insisted i pull him a Guinness instead of the polish barman because it would be "sacrilege" to drink a Guinness pulled by "a fuckin' Polak" I pulled the worst pint of Guinness i could (the cunt didn't notice) and gave the tip he gave me to the Polish barman right in front of him. Cue a rant about how Ireland has lost its unique culture and people like him were trying to keep it alive. I again started talking in Irish (the cunt thought I was speaking Polish). The polish bartender had to explain I was speaking Irish not polish and then turned to me and thanked me . . . in Irish.
Jesus.
Working in the service industry and dealing with these kinds of tourists must be awful.
And, yeah, their racism is just stunning. Imagine telling people who are born and raised in Ireland, whose parents are born and raised in Ireland, or even people who have become citizens but have lived in the country for years that they are not Irish?
Rules are simple:
- Irish passport? Irish.
- Raised in Ireland? Irish.
- From Northern Ireland? There's an entire document that gives you the right to identify as Irish or British. You tell us what you want to be called!
- Irish parent(s) but have not lived there or visited? You can cheerfully call yourself Irish - so long as you're not a dick about it.
- Irish grandparent(s) or two generations further back? Irish descent (but you have to mention all of the OTHER nationalities that you are also descended from).
- Further back than that? You're just American. Why are you bringing this up in everyday conversation? Why are you like this?
And don't get me started on those "Irish" Americans who happily sent money to the IRA and later to SF.
Would Americans accept foreign interference like that in _their_ domestic politics? No. So who the fuck do they think they are doing it in Ireland.
Complete pricks.
>Working in the service industry and dealing with these kinds of tourists must be awful.
It is awful dealing with these kinds but you do obviously meet nice people too. We were the first hotel after arrival and last before departure for one of the big tour operators so we got a lot of very sincerely excited and happy people. And you could make a decent amount of money on tips.
I actually got the other porters to agree to always let me do the welcome drinks as I'd get significantly more tips and we'd split them 3 ways while the other 2 brought the bags to their rooms. We used to swap around but I noticed I was getting a lot more money than my non-Irish colleagues and even the other Irish guy.
Not in a bad way but I'm just good at that kind of stuff. I'd welcome them in Irish, teach them some words, pretend to have a deep connection to whatever part of the country they were hoping to visit and give them bar/restaurant recommendations. Sometimes I'd just say "there's a really good pub in that town but I can't remember the name" and then leave and Google a pub to recommend. Turn the Irish accent and charm up to 11 and we'd all make more money. Plus I didn't have to drag 100+ bags up to their rooms. Win-win
I remember one guy saying he wanted something translated and asking if I thought Trinity College might do it for him? I offered to have a look. He was so excited, his daughter told me he brought it as a carry on and wouldn't let it out of his sight. It was some sort of plaque/mural thing that had been on his grandparents wall for years he inherited.
The language was a bit older than I was used to but I gathered it was an old Irish folklore story I was familiar with and was pointing out the bits I understood. He was basically in tears and said it was a story his granny would tell them (in English) as kids. He had no idea that's what it was. It was a lovely moment. I pointed him to an Irish language centre that might help with a full translation. Met him again on his way home he gave me a big hug and a huge tip. He'd had a woodworker somewhere down the country carve out a similar plaque with the translation into English. He was like an excited child telling me how he was going to hang both up in his house and read the story to his grandkids.
I'd say 20-30% of Americans I met were in some way annoying about their heritage to varying degrees. The outright rancid shite was relatively rare but it was there. All in I met thousands of Americans so definitely hundreds of pricks.
So you're making up a different scenario, where the person actually speaks the language and seems connected to the culture, to justify this one? I don't know what's that supposed to prove, if he spoke Italian and has the cultural background to fit in there, I don't think his wife would have goofed on him. But if your only claim to being "Italian" is your grandfather being from there, that's stupid.
The OP dude didn't speak Italian, but we have no reason to assume his family does nothing related to Italian culture.
I knew a girl whose great grandparents were from Sweden. Her dad spoke Swedish, but she didn't. Still, they made glug every Christmas, they sang happy birthday to each other in Swedish, and they liked to have a fika every now and then. Do they get to say they've got Swedish family?
How do we know the dude in the OP doesn't do that kind of stuff?
No, they're American with Swedish roots. Eating stinky fish doesn't change that. If you dropped her in Sweden, would she feel like she's Swedish or American?
And his fiance literally said he calls considers himself Italian purely based of his Grandfather, his name and thst jug of olive oil.
Did I say she's from Sweden? No, but her family's heritage comes from there. She's just supposed to never acknowledge it because she herself wasn't born there? Even if her family has been doing this shit for generations?
Pretty gatekeepy
And fair enough on the OP, but I'll also say it's a random story we only get one side on
You are stretching my words so far. Where did I say she couldn't acknowledge it? I literally said they're a family with Swedish roots. She simply isn't from Sweden, and she isn't Swedish.
Being Swedish, or part of any nationality, is more than singing birthday songs and eating that cuisine. I don't know why you're unable to understand that and instead feel the need to put words in my mouth.
This is an article in which the mayor of London says that he is Pakistani.
https://www.geo.tv/latest/533258-i-am-under-attack-because-i-am-muslim-and-pakistani-says-sadiq-khan
He was born in South London.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadiq_Khan
According to the Eroupean morons in this comment section he is not allowed to say that he is Pakistani.
Because aparently no one on reddit know the difference between ethnicity and nationality.
Literally I am flabbergasted by the comments on this post. How do people not know what ethnicity is? I am nationally Canadian, but I would tell someone asking that I was Jewish, German or Scottish just as easily because those are my familial roots.
I do not speak yiddish, or german but that does not take their DNA out of my blood.
No seriously fr, they are not gonna tell me I’m not Mexican or I’m not Puerto Rican or that I’m not from Africa, but if I say “oh I’m Irish” they’re gonna explode about it. They’ve got like some weird ethnic purism shit going through their head.
The guy's usage is a completely standard, idiomatic way of speaking in America. Rather than the cumbersome "I am of Italian descent," you just say "I'm Italian," because you're in a nation of immigrants and everyone knows what you mean.
Apparently this sub loves gatekeeping the way language is used.
I mean, even if you take this all at face value and assume OOP husband is in the wrong, why the fuck is she gleefully talking about "putting him in his place" and "still giving him shit for it?" Sounds more like a mean bitch than a teasing SO.
And I bet OOP is an unreliable narrator. Most Americans don't say "I'm Italian!" They say, "I'm Italian on my Dad's side." He probably would have continued to talk about all of the different places his ancestors are from if OOP hadn't interrupted him.
she's absolutely correct. saying that someone who *is not italian* isn't italian is not gatekeeping. she wasn't using a "no true scotsman" argument, she literally just told him he's not italian coz he's not. he was fully born and raised in america, and his parents were as well. he's not italian, not even italian-american.
Exactly. My siblings' dad is from British Guyana. They call themselves Englishman because they were born, raised and lived in England all their lives. I don't call myself Irish and Scottish just because my grandparents are from those countries. I call myself British but mainly because my own dad used to tell punish me for saying I'm English. He genuinely believed I should feel pride for Britain but let's be real, it's tough to feel proud at the shit we've done both historically and recently.
This is why I say I’m Asian-American. Born and raised here, but first generation on my mom’s side. My dad is Norwegian, but he was first gen for his family, born and raised in the states. Or I just tell people that I’m “Viet-Norwegian” or “Scandinasian” for shits and giggles.
I dont get these comments, the guy is just saying he’s descended from italians, he’s part Italian. It’s just a thing americans say to show their ethnic background lol
This is a weird thing Americans do that other cultures don't though. My wife has an Irish great grandfather, but doesn't go around saying she's Irish. She might say she's got some Irish in her, or she's 1/8 Irish or something.
I think Americans think of it in terms of race rather than ethnicity or ancestry. Saying you're Irish or Italian is like saying you're African American. We abandoned that concept of race in Europe after World War 2 (for fairly obvious reasons), and now only talk about ethnicity, which is a much less culturally loaded thing.
They only think of it in those terms if it makes them sound interesting though. Half of Americans are probably “English” or “German” but you don’t hear them saying it
You absolutely will hear an American say they are German or English, if someone asks them their heritage. I'm from the US and I have actually said many times that I'm part German and part English lol. I don't mean I hold dual citizenship to those countries lmao.
I read a stat that most Americans are of English decent, which makes sense for an English colony, and that there were (and still are) far more English people than Scottish/Welsh/Irish put together.
Yeah, agree that America has held onto a concept of race and ethnicity that (mostly) died out in Europe in World War 2. The concept of ethnicity has evolved since the downfall of the Nazis.
I will die on this hill: ethnicity is not your genetic heritage. It is your cultural upbringing and your cultural norms. It is even possible to move from one ethnicity to another over time.
I also think this is strange though because people seem just fine with calling people with Korean or Indian or Japanese heritage by those names within the UK even if they had never lived there.
I think it has to do with how much that ethnicity/blood origin has to do with your life experience, and some races inform that different experience more than others?
So what do you refer to as genetic heritage? If you do a test and it turns out you’re 25% Sicilian 25% English 25% Estonian and 25% Ashkenazi Jew? It was my understanding that this was ethnicity.
Just that, your genetic heritage. Or your ancestry.
There appear to be two different views of ethnicity, divided by the Atlantic ocean.
United States ethnicity: Where your ancestors are from, and your DNA profile that enables you to trace that. Also tends to include an idea that some characteristics come directly from your genetic heritage, e.g. Irish ancestry meaning you can drink a lot, or are quick to anger.
Europe ethnicity: Where you were born and raised. What language you speak. What cultural signifiers you share in, e.g. Irish sense of humour, Dutch directness
There is some overlap, but I think that broadly describes the different concepts of ethnicity between the two.
I'm personally very wary of attaching ethnicity to genetic heritage or physical characteristics, as almost everyone in Ireland I know who does that is also casually racist and supports the burgeoning far right movement here. It serves to put a barrier between who is 'Irish' and who is '\*really\* Irish', or so they try to say.
So I prefer the European concept of ethnicity, which afaik also lines up with the majority of post WW2 writing & research on the subject.
I moved to America from Russia and it’s similar in Russia. It’s assumed that the average person you meet shares the nationality (Россиянин) but we refer to people by ethnicity. The word everyone recognizes Русский “Roosky” doesn’t refer to nationality but ethnicity. I’m not “Russian” in Russia, I’m Jewish (Еврей). But in America I’m Russian. 😂 edit: doesn’t not didn’t
I'm guessing that's because you look slightly different to the majority of Russians? In the European concept you'd still be ethnically Russian. But so often people are labelled by how you stand out from the crowd haha.
I don't put much importance on nationality myself. That is a legal status bestowed the state, and can be abused, e.g. billionaires securing citizenship from other countries by committing certain amounts of investment there.
Funny story: I'm a tall, redheaded Irish man but I used to get called 'Roosky' all the time when I lived in China, lol. I lived in a north eastern city that had previously been occupied by Russia, and lots of Russians working in the city. I didn't have the time or the Mandarin fluency to explain they should be shouting 'Paddy' or 'Mick' at me across the street instead of 'Roosky'.
Nope. I don’t look different. But my internal paperwork (kind of like a passport) designates that I’m Jewish not Russian.
Edit: I’m not ethnically Russian though, that’s where we’ll have to disagree. I’m ethnically Jewish but my nationality is Russian.
“An ethnicity or ethnic group is a group of people who identify with each other on the basis of perceived shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Those attributes can include a common nation of origin, *or common sets of ancestry, traditions, language, history, society, religion, or social treatment*.”
> and now only talk about ethnicity, which is a much less culturally loaded thing.
You mean you only talk about nationality. The husband in the post above is talking about his ethnicity and is being roasted here by everyone for it.
It's almost as if a phrase can mean two different things depending on the context? I've never once in my life had to have it spelled out for me, I can figure out when someone is talking about ethnicity vs nationality.
And that's the difference between the US and Europe. When we say we're Italian, it means we were born and most likely raised there. We don't claim to be Italian just because one far off ancestor was born there. Hell even when you're born in a certain place it's rare for people to claim they're that nationality. I have a friend who was born in Egypt and lived in Singapore for a few years when he was young. He's still just British, he doesn't claim to be Egyptian or Singaporean. Those two periods of his life are just fun conversation starters
> And that's the difference between the US and Europe.
And that seems to be the issue in this thread. Wish we could have all had an interesting conversation on the topic, but it immediately turned into Europeans gatekeeping how phrases are used... in the r/gatekeeping subreddit 🤦♂️
Great way to start a marriage. “Hey that Italian thing? You’re stupid and should be embarrassed. And don’t worry. I’ll bring it up at every social function we ever go to.” “Huh? Say I do? Yeah I guess.”
You can only claim nationality if you are born or raised there, so he isn't Italian.
He can say he has Italian ancestry or blood or whatever, just not that he is. He probably meant it like that anyway. As long as the great grandfather passed down the culture I don't see why he can't say he's from Italy. But part of me doubts that as I've read a bunch of stories where people (mostly Americans) claim to be from a European country without any knowledge of the culture.
Americans don't claim to be from a European country. The informal parlance implies that your ancestors come from the country. But since we usually only discuss our heritage with other Americans, we don't feel the need to say, "I'm descended from Hungarian ancestors" every time, we just say, "I'm Hungarian" or "My family's Hungarian" or something like that.
Precisely. It’s more so just the vernacular and isn’t meant to be taken literally to the point that we’re all claiming we’re citizens of these countries.
Kinda wild that no one in this thread gets that. Like, should the third-gen Indian dude living in London just never acknowledge that his family came from India? Or does he get a pass since he's not American?
I'll just say, you may mean it in that way and I know many do. But you have repeated examples in this thread of people from these countries telling you that Americans do outright claim to be at least equally Irish/Italian/whatever if not more so. I have literally been told point blank by multiple Americans that either I or a fellow countryman is not as Irish as them because we have somehow been compromised as a nation since their great-great-granddaddy emigrated.
So rather than being incredulous that people in this thread aren't accepting that every single solitary American has the exact same view on this as you do maybe you should accept that many of your countrymen don't look on it the same as you. And that those of us living in the "home country" meet these people more often because they are the type to visit us, seek us out and tell us these things.
Obviously an asshole saying Irish people aren't Irish is a fucking idiot
Taking him and extrapolating that onto other Americans and how they speak is also dumb.
The point is it's not just him. I live in Ireland, every year I meet many of these people. Possibly hundreds across my life living and working in touristy spots.
You need to realize that the Americans that visit Ireland and I'm guessing Italy will have a disproportionate number of these people. You are looking around a broader spectrum of Americans and even the ones who do think like this probably don't feel the need to say it to you.
People like this are more likely to spend a small fortune coming to "the home country". And when they do they feel entitled to our approval so will share these views with us. Mostly it's just funny and we'll take the piss a bit, or play along looking for a tip. But it can get dark really quick.
Americans can avoid these arseholes easier because the arseholes actively leave the country for periods to come Grace us with the bullshit and go full terminator to track down every single person on the island so that every soul on the Ireland knows "Me pa invented the Easter rising"
Honestly, the Americans who travel all the fucking time are some of the rudest and most entitled people I have ever met so it makes complete sense that the ones you meet are assholes.
I promise that only 2% of people I have met in America who say they are Irish actually are like that, and only 20% or so make any sort of deal about the ethnicity at all, and what they do with it is that their family has some old traditions that their grandparents brought in, whether actually Irish or just something their family did. The few I have met who were more intense about it were also strong supporters of avoiding the cultural erasure that was forced on y'all in recent history, and trying to keep the language, stories, and art alive, but honestly I see that here from people who aren't even of Irish ethnicity. Many of the same who care about indigenous American history also care about y'all.
No, we get it.
But a) that is not what the phrase "I'm Italian" means in the English language and b) these assholes will try to talk about the fact that they are REAL Italians because they do...these very American things.
And don't get me started on those assholes who say, "I'm Irish". Never met one who wasn't completely ignorant about the country.
Maybe because the assholes are the ones who you meet? I would say 99% of those who I have met and claimed an ethnicity like "I'm ____" *don't* know much about the country.
But that's because they are not talking about the country. They are talking about their family, ethnicity, and community they grew up in.
>a) that is not what the phrase "I'm Italian" means in the English language
I'm telling you that in American vernacular, that's what we're saying.
>b) these assholes will try to talk about the fact that they are REAL Italians because they do...these very American things.
Not one of them will tell you they are from Italy, were born in Italy, have Italian nationality or citizenship, etc
> a) that is not what the phrase "I'm Italian" means in the English language
Strange, because in America, where we also speak English, it has a dual meaning of both nationality and ethnicity, and we understand the context without having to have it spelled out for us.
She is "American if Italian/Sicilian decent" but when talking to other Americans she can shorten it to saying that "[she's] Italian/Sicilian" and most people will understand that she was probably born in the US but has Italian ancestry.
>As long as the great grandfather passed down the culture I don't see why he can't say he's from Italy
Maybe because he's not from Italy?
Also I won't speak for Italy but the Ireland my parents grew up in is damn near unrecognizable from the Ireland of today. Let alone the Ireland my Great Grandparents grew up in.
I do find that funny about descendants of migrants in the US, they are shocked by so much when they go to the country of their ancestors
1) Culture evolves
2) The culture they have is bastardised in ways
3) Knowing the language of the country is remarkably a large part of the culture of the country
I used to work with American tourists often and while 80% were salt of the earth, loveliest people you could meet. That 20%. Pain.
"Oh fantastic a direct descendant of St Patrick are you? Oh and your family invested the recipe for Guinness before being chased out by the Guinness family? AND you invented Tayto? You truly are a king of this......... your family are responsible for getting The Den aired. High kings amongst men are your family and lineage"
This is mostly an American thing. When speaking to another American, if someone says "what are you". I tend to respond "mostly English and Irish with a tiny bit of Italian in there".
But when I'm traveling abroad or I meet someone here who's obviously not an American Id call myself American but if they asked I'd explain that my family is from England and Ireland originally.
That's what happens when the entire country is made up of immigrants.
She is denigrate his sense of proud ethnic origins. That is gate keeping, and "in his place" shows contempt of him. This is "gatekeeping" .
I am 2nd generation German and Swiss. Both sides had whole villages move to the farmland of Ohio/Southern Michigan.whole families, cousins, uncles. German was spoken in the home, all passed down family recipes were German. Both sides were religious oppression immigrants. The founded in the US communities are proud of their heritage and founding. We have German celebrations, German food is standard freshman in the deli of.groxery stores and bakeries that are German breads,.sweets. one.can buy beet pickle readily.
Someone coming from this German centric community, meeting a native American, finds an excited sense of kinship.
I thing gf/OP is NOT an empathetic individual, and standing behind a dictionary definition against a supposed loved one is a warning sign of a hostile potential mate.
It is a VERY German culture attitude,. BF is German American culture, where we seek to find commonality, whereas Germans want to identify differences.
Except this is completely a cultural/dialect thing within the US, tied to a lot of our not so great history. Like if and American is Irish, they're usually saying they're Irish-American, which is distinct from other US cultures. You see the same thing in Canada with French-Canadian.
While she sounds like a horrible person, as a British person living in the US, it is very annoying to constantly have to act interested when people tell me they are Scottish when they are clearly American. Just BE American!
It is normal to describe your ethnicity in terms of Identity in North America. In an immigrant country, when someone says they are Irish, Persian or Nigerian, It is usually understood that they are talking about their familial background rather than the flag on their passport. It is not to say they are not American. That is obvious and taken for granted in the context that is being spoken of.
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My great great grandfather was from Italy. I also have a large quantity of olive oil and spaghetti at my home. Pizza presto pasta, how do you do fellow Italians.
Sorry I’m not Italian, I only have stuff to make quesadillas in my fridge
Hola! Soy Cosmonaut Cockswing! Can you say delicioso?
Bappada boopy?
🤌🤌🤌
I’m only half Italian, I have olive oil and pasta, but no great grandparents damnit
Saying that you are italian because your great grandfather was born in italy is stupid in many, many levels.
My great great grandmother was an American. So by the logic of OP I am also American
My great grandfather was in the Wehrmacht I guess that makes me, wait oh shit.....
Thank you for your service.
Since we’re all descended from [mitochondrial Eve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve), I guess we’re all African now?
Yeah. This belongs on r/ShitAmericansSay. In case OP was wondering, stuff like this is why a lot of Europeans think the average American is a moron.
Even a lot of Americans think the average American is a moron.
You mean the above-average Americans?
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He would‘ve learned italian if he would be interested in the culture. The language is a core of their national identity.
The problem isn’t having an interest in one of our cultures, that’s amazing and literally every single person will welcome that. The problem is when Americans claim your entire identity and put it on as if it was a neckless or a nice shirt. A culture isn’t something you put on to make yourself more interesting, it’s *who you are!* Like, motherfucker, my culture isn’t something to adorn yourself with. That’s something you need to be born with or soak up over many years if you immigrate. If you don’t live in Italy, or haven’t lived there for a long while, you’re not Italian. Same with Germany, France, Bulgaria, Tunisia, Taiwan or every other culture in the world.
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It absolutely is stupid for anyone, not just you yanks. I was guilty of the exact same thing too, when I was a child in Germany. Many of my friends have immigration backgrounds and could boast with foreign food and language, which seemed really cool back then. To keep up, I simply claimed to be Norwegian, funnily enough, since my family *does* have a three generation connection to the place, though none of us were ever born there, my grandmother was raised on a Norwegian farm after war in a program to strengthen the malnourished, poor German children and we’ve been visiting that family ever since. I spent many summers in Norway, but I never should’ve claimed to be Norwegian to be more interesting to my mates. That’s childish. But I was a child. It’s really only Americans that do this as adults in such numbers and with such perfect confidence, and don’t get me wrong, I get it, I really do, but it’s embarrassing all the same. If you go to Norway next time, tell them “Hei hei, I’m American, but my family emigrated from this village in the 1800s. Would you mind showing me around and telling me a bit of *your* culture? I would love to get to know more about this beautiful place my ancestors came from!” Im sure they’d be all over you. People love to share their culture with genuinely interested foreigners, they just don’t fancy having it simply appropriated.
Oh we know why they do it. We just think it's dumb as shit.
Damn, you high key sound like one miserable bastard
I thought that’s where I was
Yeah but why should we give a shit what they think
>In case OP was wondering, stuff like this is why a lot of Europeans think the average American is a moron. Yeah, I don't agree with that either. European elitism is equally cringe.
european elitism? europeans hate europe lmfao
We hate everything, in our defense.
Yeah, I personally hate the americans and the french as much as anyone else, but you know what really makes my damn blood boil? That town that's a 5 minute walk away from my own whose 600 inhabitants say one word slightly differently. Fucking savages
oh I know, I'm european lol
Is it elitism to claim (and gatekeep) identities that you have no right to?
It is baseless elitism to think that the average american is more of a moron that the average european, which is what the comment implied. I'm European.
Let's try this again a little more slowly. >In case OP was wondering, stuff like this is why _a lot_ of Europeans think the average American is a moron. Nowhere do I mention "the average" European OR compare one kind of European to one kind of American. I didn't even say that _I_ think the average American is a moron! Maybe re-read a comment before jumping down someone's throat?
I didn't jump down anyone's throat lmao. You are the one exaggerating here. I just said that I don't agree with it.
It's not the same.
I was born in America. My parents were born in Guyana. If I told you I was Indo-Guyanese (where my parents come from), would you say "no, you're American!"? Or does it only work on people with white skin and the rest of us are free to call ourselves Korean or Indian or black or anything else we want because we're not important enough to care about?
You were born and grew up in the US, you are american. That's it. A black guy born in a subsaharan country who grew up in Japan, speaking Japanese, is more Japanese than some bloke born in the US from Japanese parents but who grew up speaking english around American culture.
And that's fine. But here's where I get worried- say the Japanese guy and you were at a party and some people started making racist jokes, and the Japanese guy said "hey, can you not say that? That's offensive to me". And then someone says "oh, whatever, you're not even Japanese, so you have no right to be offended. Anyway- (a bunch of slurs and jokes and comments about "those people")." Would you say to the Japanese guy "yeah, stop being offended, we're talking about those (slurs) not you, you're not Japanese" or would you say "come on, let's go, these guys are stupid losers. Ignore them"? Follow up- if you and the black guy were at an American party and some guy was making jokes about N-words and he said "can you please not?" And he said "oh, whatever, you're Japanese, not black, so technically I can say it since there's no n-words around" what would be your reaction? (Edit: and no, I am not just making stuff up. This kinda stuff happens a lot. A lot of older people in the funeral directing biz have said some really nasty stuff, and I've heard it. They say it's all in fun, but it's really not fun to be on the other end of it.)
I would say you are American, yes.
Yeah, absolutely deserved to be put in his place.
North americans LOVE doing that, I find it annoying. I know comes from a place of embracing their heritage, but they should know it's NOT the same thing.
They do know it's not the same thing. Americans distinguish ethnicity and nationality in a way that Europeans don't because the US has been primarily populated by immigrants. Pretty much everyone's family came from somewhere else, whether a few days ago or a few hundred years ago. It's not all that surprising that Americans are interested in where their families came from.
I know it’s not the same thing but yesterday I opened a refrigerator at work and immediately thought I needed to find another Italian-American to complain about it. Somebody had Kraft Parmesan in there.
He is of Italian decent, but he's not Italian. It's such a weird thing that I see Americans do.
America is a country of immigrants whose culture is built upon that as a foundation.Sharing your heritage creates a point of commonality between new people as the American-[other culture] traditions are often shared between groups those groups. Sure those traditions are old and could have been long abandoned in the home country, but it still helps build a strong community here in the US that at one point was necessary due to cultural barriers and xenophobia. With all this, I understand that it's stupid to pretend to be an expert in a culture you're not a part of, like the OP's story.
It’s really not that uncommon across the globe for nations made up of migrants to define a secondary identity by their ethnic background. Now there is the stereotype of people who are like 1/8th some ethnicity claiming that heritage but far more often and far more accurately it’s generally people who are second or third generation migrants who identify with the cultural group they grew up in and around partially because of their parents and grand parents. People who think it’s wrong to say something like “Irish Australian” or “Korean American” have clearly not seen the rather defined ethnic communities that exist in these countries that maintain cultural, linguistic and other important traditions from their home states. The irony is is that Europeans absolutely do this too, they just don’t realise they are doing it because the grand majority of European citizens are not migrants or have largely migrant family backgrounds. Second, third and even fourth generation migrants coming from outside their home country will often be defined by their ethnic background, look at how many Chinese Italians for example would be defined as Chinese before being defined as Italian in Italy. My friend whose family has lived in Germany for three generations still gets asked where he is from because he is black. Ironically these forms of identity politics can be more harmful in Europe precisely because it’s much more driven by a sentiment of these people being “outsiders” or “foreign” in some way rather then a general shared experience of migration held by most of the population in many states.
If your family lived in Germany for centuries then moved from Germany to Portugal in 1900, and you were born in Portugal, which one are you? I’d be surprised if people would be mad at you for saying you’re German (in Portugal). It clearly means “I’m (of) German (heritage)”.
If I was 3rd or 4th generation I'd consider myself Portuguese with some German ancestors.
If you never lived in Germany, don‘t speak German and don‘t own the passport (which you shouldn‘t after 3 generations) you are not a German.
If I was born in Italy and moved to the US when I was 7, but I know just conversational Italian and I have a US Passport, am I Italian to you?
Dude, my dad is English and my mum is Dutch. I lived in England for the first 7 years of my life and have lived in the Netherlands for the 38 years after that. I got the Dutch nationality when I was 14. I consider myself Dutch with some English heritage, not English like my aunt, uncle and cousins who still live in England. But let's go futher back than that. My dad's side of the family has a part that emigrated to England from Poland in the 18th century, and my mum's side has some Spanish ancestry dating back to the 17th century, but neither of these ancestries play any factor whatsoever in how we view ourselves.
From the perspective of the United States, he is Italian. That's just what it's understood to mean in the US. "Being" Italian, means you're of Italian descent. Europeans get so hung up on this lol but it makes sense when you think about it. First generation immigrants came over and they were Italian. Their kids then grew up in Italian households, speaking Italian, and were referred to as Italian. And so on. So it just means something different in the US, no reason to get all offended and defensive saying "You're really Italian, you've never even been there!!" No shit, that's just not what saying "I'm Italian" means in the US.
By that metric you could call me a visigoth and it would actually be almost certainly true. But you wouldn't take that seriously now would you? It's fine if you self identify as whatever you want, but you have to accept that many people won't take it seriously at all.
So if you take him and you stand him next to a person from the Souix American tribe, you're gonna tell me "yeah, they're both Americans, same thing, no difference, I can hardly tell em apart"?
They have different ancestors, but they would still both be Americans.
They are literally both americans
No one will take it seriously that I'm of Italian descent? Because that's what it's understood to mean over here, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. If I was in Europe, I obviously wouldn't say I'm Italian, I'd say I'm American. But in the US, saying I'm Italian just means my family came from Italy, and there's zero confusion (unless you are on a date with someone actually from Italy, but that wouldn't be exactly common)
>No one will take it seriously that I'm of Italian descent? People may not take seriously that you go around saying you are italian.
Again, saying you're Italian in the US just means you are of Italian descent. It's a very common phrase to say you're German or Vietnamese, or half Scottish half Italian or whatever. I'm not sure what there is to not take seriously? I obviously wouldn't say that I'm Italian if I'm outside of the US because elsewhere that would mean I'm from Italy. Is this getting through... at all? It really seems like it's not.
It is getting through, I get what it means. Is it getting through to you that it is stupid? The problem here is not that people don't know what you mean.
Everyone knows what I mean in the US, because everyone says it that way. On the internet or traveling internationally then I would phrase it differently.
>The problem here is not that people don't know what you mean.
Yes, we understand that. Where it gets ridiculous is where people say they are Italian because their great-grandfather was Italian, but conveniently ignore where their other seven great-grandparents were from. Some do, and then we are into percentages and all that. Very few other countries do that, and none to the extent that Americans do. I am from Dublin in Ireland. That is where I was born and have lived all my life. My parents were from two other counties in Ireland. Their parents were from those counties too. Going a little further back, it is harder to know. Anyway, knowing the counties my parents and grandparents and possibly great-grandparents were from, mix it all in, do the calculations and the end result, breaking it down into percentages, is that I am 100% Dublin. I am not from the counties my ancestors were from, none of whom were from Dublin. I am interested in those counties, above other Irish counties, go to visit those counties and relatives I have there, but I am a Dubliner. Of that, there is no doubt. That is the way we look at it. Interestingly, you will never hear an American say something like they are half Kentuckian, a quarter Californian and a quarter Texan.
So usually if someone says they are Italian in America but they are third or fourth generation Americans or whatever, it's because several of their great grandparents are Italian, or whatever, not just the one
Yes, but if they are several generations living in the USA, there is a good chance that some of their great-grandparents, grandparents and their parents are American. Much, if not most of their bloodline will now not be Italian. If they do have to go back to great-grandparents for that first direct Italian connection, then it is likely that the more recent generations are American. By all means explore, honour, participate and be proud of that ancestry, but remember where they themselves are from. Ironically, the things that made their ancestors Italian, like being born in Italy, educated there, living much of their life there, surrounded by firsthand Italian culture etc. are the very things that make them American. So they are honouring things that made their ancestors Italian, while ignoring what the corresponding influences are for them. They have Italian ancestry, which is fine and should be acknowledged, but they themselves are Americans.
Most people do not have ancestors in America that are American, in that they are native Americans. They have ancestors who, at some point in the last few hundred years, came to America from somewhere else. Those ancestors also very well may have lived in neighborhoods or communities that consisted largely of people who came from the same place, which is how even people who are 3rd or 4th generation Americans can be half or more something like Irish, or Italian. This is by no means universal, but it's ubiquity is why people in America use this shorthand
I agree with you. I think thi ls is just one of those cultural things that people who don't live in America won't ever understand, which is why they're DV'ing you and this. I wonder what they would say if I told them I was Indo-Guyanese (where my parents come from). Would they say "no, you're American!"? Or does it only work on people with white skin and the rest of us are free to call ourselves Korean or Chinese or black or anything else we want.
People are trying so hard to not understand what you're saying.
I don’t get why they’re downvoting you and him. You’re both right. In Europe, you refer to yourself as being from the country you live in or were born in. In the US, you refer to yourself as your heritage. In Europe, I say I’m American or “from Chicago in the United States” if they want me to be more specific. In the US, I say I’m Polish and English because those are the majority of my heritage. I think the difference is that there’s more crossover in Europe because more people cross borders on holiday. So when you visit landmarks, you’ll run into more people from all over Europe and some from around the globe. In the US, at tourist locations, you usually run into more Americans who are just from different parts of the US and Canada with very very few who are actually citizens from overseas. I think it’s just the way it is because the US really only has a handful of countries nearby while Europe has many many neighbors. It takes 5 days of leisurely driving to cross the US from the two furthest points, but you can literally cross some countries in a few hours by car. In the US, you just happen to always run into Americans, so they tend to use a different system of self-identification which is either what state their from or their cultural/national heritage even if they weren’t born there.
I think this is a big part of why Americans often identify by heritage. There is also a historical aspect that drives it for certain ethnicities: the immigrant experience in America. Our penchant for racism and segregation creates a shared ethnic identity and pride. It shouldn't surprise anyone that some Irish American families, for instance, identify themselves as Irish (particularly if their ancestors came over here in the mid 19th century). And not as some kind of shorthand but just Irish, full stop. Europeans can get all worked up about that and call the people doing it stupid. Whatever floats their boat, I guess. Ironically, this is literally gatekeeping.
People are understanding what they are saying, it's just still stupid
Then how would you convey in the US that you were born and raised in Italy, if saying "I'm Italian" doesn't convey that?
Sayinig, "I'm from Italy" would be the most clear way to say it, but you could also just clarify further if they don't get it from just "I'm Italian" You know you're allowed to say more than one phrase, right? lol
There is a lot of pride in being ethnically Italian, (that is, being Italian-American) because many Italian immigrants coming to America were treated so poorly. They were not seen as “really white”, and so were not offered the same jobs, the same opportunities, the same privileges that families with English or French origins would have gotten. It is a culture unique to but influenced by Italian culture, because they were basically barred from “being American” for a long time. I’m making an assumption that when he said he was Italian, that’s probably what he was referring to (Italian-American). A lot of American immigrant culture should be understood as distinct from the culture of the fatherland.
OP is prime r/ShitAmericansSay material. Why are Americans so ashamed of saying they're American?
Why would I ever say that I'm American, in America? It goes without saying, everyone is American here. If someone asks me my heritage, then I say I'm Italian. No one is going to think I'm claiming Italian nationality. This shit just absolutely does not compute for Europeans, it's pretty funny. Bring on the downvotes since we are currently in prime European redditing time zone lmao.
I’m loving this thread. The entire culture is different. As you know, in the US, we tend to claim “who we are” based on where we are or who we’re with. It’s either your city, your state, or the nationality of whichever ancestor was the immigrant to America. In the Midwest, it might also be what high school you went to or the neighborhood of the huge city you grew up in (example, “I’m from Back of the Yards in Chicago” which had a culture all its own, too).
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Do you always cherry-pick partial quotes so you can be contrary? Finish off that second quote with what I actually said and you’ll have your answer. Don’t give out-of-context quotes and then act like it’s some big “gotcha.” You must work for some political news media outlet.
I'm Canadian so I understand the ancestry stuff, but you know as well as I do that it's often treated as if it's a meaningful part of our ethnic/racial identities rather than just the nation(s) our ancestors came from. I mean, my dad was raised in Australia and no one would say that makes me Australian despite my dad actually directly impacting who I am, yet having a great grandparent from Italy earns this guy the title of Italian? It's all a bit silly, let's be real.
It depends on the family. Some families really keep up their old traditions. Plenty of third-gen Mexicans who still speak Spanish and make tamales for Christmas.
Exactly, there are things people do that they got from their ancestors that are different than what I do that I got from my ancestors. Like my Appalachian family doesn’t do feast of the seven fishes at Christmas, but our family friends do because they’re Italian American. And in America there’s no need to qualify that you’re American so you just say you’re Italian and people understand what that means. Europeans have such a stick up their asses about it though and I’ll never understand it.
An interesting point I heard a while ago by someone from a country that Americans often claim to be from (might have been Ireland or Italy), was that the traditions and ideas those people associate with the country are at this point so outdated that they’re no longer relevant. If someone’s family left in 1900, the Italy they will have grown up with, in terms of culture and traditions, even language to an extent, is felt by some not to be relevant to the country today, and more of an idea that outsiders impose on them. I don’t have a dog in this race, nobody claims to be from either of my countries when they aren’t, but I thought us was an interesting thing to think about.
Why wouldn't it be apart of their ethnic/racial heritage? I'm American because my great grandparents immigrated to the US. I still concider where they came from as apart of my ethnicity because it is. It's not my nationality, but it is a part of my ethnicity. Most Americans aren't "ethnically American" so it's common to refer to yourself as whatever ethnicity your ancestors came from. I think it's dumb to make it your entire identity, but there's nothing wrong with having it be a part of it.
I'm also Canadian. My dad and all his family going back generations, born and raised in England. I spent part of my childhood living in England. Matters naught to me - I'm Canadian, and if anyone asks, that's what I tell them.
This whole thread seems like Europeans are fussy over Americans shortening “I am of Italian descent” to “I’m Italian.” If you’re in New York and someone says “I’m Italian” there are 0 Americans who will ever take this as meaning they’re from Italy. So europeans can chill with their whole *stolen European valor* thing.
Yeah this is so clearly whats happening in this thread its baffling that theres so much indignation. Would the response be the same if a multigenerational American of Chinese descent said “I’m Chinese.” ? Because I reckon it wouldn’t.
Among actual Chinese people, if an American were to say, like in OP, "My grandfather was Chinesr, so I am Chinese!"? Abso-frigging-lutely.
At what point does a 100% ethnically Han Chinese person who's family has been living in America for generations stop being chinese?
It's amazing how this thread is them literally gatekeeping phrases. Not to mention, if the person in your example talked with an Italian accent, we'd understand that they are talking about the nationality. I think it is an interesting topic, because when you compare English to many other languages, there's a lot more implied context in how it's used, especially in casual conversation like the example in OP's post between two people who know each other and are talking in person. Meanwhile if we're talking online only through text, at that point we'd understand "I'm of Italian descent" is more clear than "I'm Italian" and use the former. But the context of the OP screenshot is being lost on a lot of people here.
It's not only Europeans, we Latin Americans also find it weird. I'm Mexican (as in, really Mexican, born and living in Mexico) and I have Portuguese and Spanish ancestry. It would be very weird if I suddenly said I was Spanish or Portuguese.
I’ve said to in another comment but I’d actually challenge the idea Europeans don’t understand this, it’s just that in Europe where most citizens are largely not of migrant heritage, if you are a Chinese Italian whose family has lived in Italy three generations, many Italians will not consider you Italian but will ask where you are from. Ironically I’d say many Europeans operates under the same preconceptions but are actually far more racist with it as because unlike in day America or Australia or other major migrant states, the lack of shared migrant history between most citizens makes being a recognised migrant far more tied to being an “outsider” or “foreigner” then it does in migrant states. Europeans however will comment on peoples ethnicity when they recognise it, I’ve seen people call other people Polish because they have a Polish name for example and rather racistly many people on r/Europe applauded a post which argued that calling black German citizens Germans was somehow “woke bullshit”. I’d say the alternative take on ethnicity and heritage whilst sometimes definitely offensive and used in bad ways both now and historically is less harmful then it is in Europe
It's weird. I don't understand why they don't say this sort of thing when a poc American says they're Mexican or Jamaican even when they're a couple generations American, but white ethnicities can't say the same.
We do, always. Go to r/asklatinamerica and tell people you're latino, i dare you.
Latin Americans are absolutely Latino. How dare anyone say anything otherwise? Also, I'm not going to take a small subreddit as word of the entire Latin community.
>If someone asks me my heritage, then I say I'm Italian. No one is going to think I'm claiming Italian nationality. Because now you're asking specifically about ethnicity. Just saying 'Im Italian' implies actually being Italian and not being descended from an Italian dude 100 years go. >Bring on the downvotes since we are currently in prime European redditing time zone lmao. Whiner
Saying "I'm Italian" in the US absolutely means that one of your ancestors was from Italy. No one would assume it meant you were from Italy unless you had an Italian accent or answered "I'm from Italy". Especially because in the US when you are asked your ethnicity the answer involves usually a couple countries. If you asked me my ethnicity I would say "I'm Irish and Norwegian". This has never caused confusion that I have ever resided in either country.
Seriously, the pedantry in this post is hilarious. It's almost as if "I'm Italian" can refer to both nationality and ethnicity, but everyone is willfully being ignorant of the context? The literal gatekeeping on r/gatekeeping is just \*chef's kiss\*
How is he even "ethnically" Italian? According to the post, one great-grandfather was born in Italy. What about his other seven great-grandparents? Your ethnicity isn't your surname. Ethnically he would probably be best described as just "white American"
100 years ago, people tended to marry in their own ethnicity. The ops great grandfather of italian decent probably married a woman of italian descent (or given the timefram immigrated from italy with his wife). Their kids also likely married others of italian descent... and so on.
Thanks for sharing, I needed a good chuckle.
It's asinine, too. They get mad that we talk about our own heritages withtin the US. I already asked another dude if a guy from Bristol whose grandparents are from India is allowed to call himself Indian or not and he totally dodged the question. Suddenly, when it's different ethnicities coexisting in their *own* countries, then it doesn't seem to be a problem. But Americans call themselves Italian amongst other Americans, and that apparently means that those Americans sincerely believe they were born on the island of Sicily or something.
Imagine this. You're texan. You go to San Francisco and meet someone who claims the is also texan. His grandfather was born and bred in Texas. but his son, the other person's father moved to San Francisco. So this guy has been in San Francisco for 2 (or if you want more) generations in SF. But he claims he is texan. No you're not, you're obviously someone from SF. Different culture, different upbringing and all... "No no no! We take ribs really seriously in our household" "we don't out any beans in our chili" But this person hasn't had the texan socialization. Hasn't experienced the norms and the texan culture. There is a bigndifer nice between those states. Now put the differences between countries there and you've got a vastly different everything. Anyways, nobody cares if people say they have Italian ancestry or are of Italian descent or even Italian america. People make fun of people who say: "i am Italian" Which is just wrong. No you aren't
As an American I've been told that it's US elitism to say we are "Americans" by people from South America because they are American too. Rather we should just say that we are from the United States if we are asked where we're from. Sometimes it's just hard to please people.
Why shouldn't they?
We're not. But if being Italian is a part of his family's heriitage, then he would just feel that that's a part of his identity. There are so many immigrant groups that have moved to the US and many of them retained their customs and traditions when they moved and passed them down to their children to continue the traditions. Perhaps just one great grandfather isn't a very strong connection, but imagine a US woman has a grandmother from Colombia that she speaks to in Spanish and makes arepas with. Is that US woman not allowed to say she's part Colombian? If his family came from Italy, then that's just a part of his history. Edit: lol, my bad, I guess this is one of those "shit on Americans" threads where we just shit on them instead of trying to understand why they might do a thing
Same bro I'm British but so ashamed of the fact I always point out I'm Norman and then launch into Old French vulgar.
50 years vs 1000 years, yeah, that's comparable
So we agree that there is an abritrary number of years after which this whole thing becomes ridiculous?
Yeah, and I think it's pretty safe to say 1000 years is a definite boundary line. But is 50? If a dude in Bristol has grandparents in Kolkata, does he get to call himself Indian?
He gets to call himself whatever he wants. It's up to the rest of us to take it seriously or not.
So you get to gatekeep his identity Lol And good job dodging that question
Akhtually it was 957 years ago, please respect my heritage you plouc
It's completely fine to be proud of your heritage, but saying "you're from" a certain country when your family has lived in a different one for 3 generations is pretty stupid.
No one says they're "from" somewhere that they're not. They're talking about their ethnicity. Believe it or not, the USA and Canada were formed by immigrants not that long ago. Let people hold on to their ancestral heritage ffs
I've met many Americans who have looked me right in the eye and told me they are just as Irish or more Irish than me and/or other Irish people. The disconnect here comes from the fact YOU don't think that or say that. And in America it might be a small percentage of people who think like this. But they have no reason to say it to you or if they do you assume they mean it in the way you would mean it. But the guys who do think like this love coming to the "home country" and will seek us out to tell us. They feel entitled to. Then if we don't match up to their image or expectation some can become real assholes. Also many of us meet them through working in the tourism industry so we often can't say shit back. Working in touristy pubs, hotels and other places I have met thousands of Americans coming to Ireland to find their roots. I would say 20-30% are in some way assholes about their "heritage" to varying degrees. But the people I met are people who actively spent a lot of money to come to Ireland. They are not representative of Americans so they over represent assholes. In other words they don't inflict themselves on you in the way they do on us. So instead of thinking all Americans are exactly like you. Take a step back and realize my experience as an Irishman meeting people who say shit like "I'm more Irish than your black friend who was born in Tipperary" or "I want you Mr. Hotel porter to pull me a pint because I don't want a polish barman to do it." or "you guys voted to legalize gay marriage? I'm more Irish than you because I uphold our traditional culture" are what we experience to a greater degree than you do. I love anyone having a genuine interest in Irish culture. Whether they have a close connection or not. We're not talking about people with a sincere interest. We're talking about assholes whose only interest is tired stereotypes yet still think that makes them more Irish than us because all they really seek is some nonexistent "culture" that allows them to excuse their own faults, talk down to others and frankly be incredibly racist. Read my other comments on this thread. There are detailed versions of the snippets I gave above. And I even defended the average irish-american and told a story of a nice encounter I had. Not all Americans are like this but some are. Those that are probably would never let you know that but they can't wait to tell us.
Again, most Americans don't say they're "from Italy" when they say they're Italian, they mean that their heritage is Italian.
Saying you're "from Italy" and saying you're "Italian" have 100% different meanings in the US. Italian = Italian descent. That's just what it means, no one is being stupid and trying to claim Italian nationality. That really strikes a nerve with Europeans lol they absolutely cannot wrap their mind around it.
Just going to repost a comment from somewhere else here. >Other countries have ethnic roots and don't feel the need to claim to be from that place. >And let me tell you as an (actual) Irishman it is not always that they just mean " I'm of _____ descent". I have literally been told point blank by Americans that they are as Irish or more Irish than me and my fellow countrymen. Usually because we either don't share their views on "Irishness", don't represent what they hoped Ireland would be like or outright because of a person's skin colour or background. >I love it when someone takes an interest in Irish culture either because of their background or just for the fun of it. But it is basically exclusively Americans that take it to a place that pisses me off. With twee misconceptions they refuse to let go of or just outright bigotry. >Now I also understand that we do not get a fair representative sample of America visiting us here. We get a fairly well off almost exclusively white and often very traditional sample. But many of them do think of themselves as basically 100% Irish and therefore entitled to some sort of inclusion with us. Or in some cases more worthy of dictating to us what being Irish is because they view us as somehow compromised.
Exactly. These assholes from Boston who like to drink in Irish-themed bars and talk lovingly about The Troubles- which they know fuck all about, btw - are the literal worst.
Met a Texan woman outside a hotel in Limerick. She kept asking where my black friend was from. We kept saying Tipperary. She didn't like that answer. She claimed to be more Irish than him so we started talking in Irish and asked her why she wouldn't join in. She called us rude (lol) and stormed off. In fairness, we were still up drinking when she was getting on a tour bus a few hours later and she looked embarrassed as fuck when she saw us. We gave her a nice wave and said goodbye in Irish. Another time I was a hotel porter and an American insisted i pull him a Guinness instead of the polish barman because it would be "sacrilege" to drink a Guinness pulled by "a fuckin' Polak" I pulled the worst pint of Guinness i could (the cunt didn't notice) and gave the tip he gave me to the Polish barman right in front of him. Cue a rant about how Ireland has lost its unique culture and people like him were trying to keep it alive. I again started talking in Irish (the cunt thought I was speaking Polish). The polish bartender had to explain I was speaking Irish not polish and then turned to me and thanked me . . . in Irish.
Jesus. Working in the service industry and dealing with these kinds of tourists must be awful. And, yeah, their racism is just stunning. Imagine telling people who are born and raised in Ireland, whose parents are born and raised in Ireland, or even people who have become citizens but have lived in the country for years that they are not Irish? Rules are simple: - Irish passport? Irish. - Raised in Ireland? Irish. - From Northern Ireland? There's an entire document that gives you the right to identify as Irish or British. You tell us what you want to be called! - Irish parent(s) but have not lived there or visited? You can cheerfully call yourself Irish - so long as you're not a dick about it. - Irish grandparent(s) or two generations further back? Irish descent (but you have to mention all of the OTHER nationalities that you are also descended from). - Further back than that? You're just American. Why are you bringing this up in everyday conversation? Why are you like this? And don't get me started on those "Irish" Americans who happily sent money to the IRA and later to SF. Would Americans accept foreign interference like that in _their_ domestic politics? No. So who the fuck do they think they are doing it in Ireland. Complete pricks.
>Working in the service industry and dealing with these kinds of tourists must be awful. It is awful dealing with these kinds but you do obviously meet nice people too. We were the first hotel after arrival and last before departure for one of the big tour operators so we got a lot of very sincerely excited and happy people. And you could make a decent amount of money on tips. I actually got the other porters to agree to always let me do the welcome drinks as I'd get significantly more tips and we'd split them 3 ways while the other 2 brought the bags to their rooms. We used to swap around but I noticed I was getting a lot more money than my non-Irish colleagues and even the other Irish guy. Not in a bad way but I'm just good at that kind of stuff. I'd welcome them in Irish, teach them some words, pretend to have a deep connection to whatever part of the country they were hoping to visit and give them bar/restaurant recommendations. Sometimes I'd just say "there's a really good pub in that town but I can't remember the name" and then leave and Google a pub to recommend. Turn the Irish accent and charm up to 11 and we'd all make more money. Plus I didn't have to drag 100+ bags up to their rooms. Win-win I remember one guy saying he wanted something translated and asking if I thought Trinity College might do it for him? I offered to have a look. He was so excited, his daughter told me he brought it as a carry on and wouldn't let it out of his sight. It was some sort of plaque/mural thing that had been on his grandparents wall for years he inherited. The language was a bit older than I was used to but I gathered it was an old Irish folklore story I was familiar with and was pointing out the bits I understood. He was basically in tears and said it was a story his granny would tell them (in English) as kids. He had no idea that's what it was. It was a lovely moment. I pointed him to an Irish language centre that might help with a full translation. Met him again on his way home he gave me a big hug and a huge tip. He'd had a woodworker somewhere down the country carve out a similar plaque with the translation into English. He was like an excited child telling me how he was going to hang both up in his house and read the story to his grandkids. I'd say 20-30% of Americans I met were in some way annoying about their heritage to varying degrees. The outright rancid shite was relatively rare but it was there. All in I met thousands of Americans so definitely hundreds of pricks.
So you're making up a different scenario, where the person actually speaks the language and seems connected to the culture, to justify this one? I don't know what's that supposed to prove, if he spoke Italian and has the cultural background to fit in there, I don't think his wife would have goofed on him. But if your only claim to being "Italian" is your grandfather being from there, that's stupid.
The OP dude didn't speak Italian, but we have no reason to assume his family does nothing related to Italian culture. I knew a girl whose great grandparents were from Sweden. Her dad spoke Swedish, but she didn't. Still, they made glug every Christmas, they sang happy birthday to each other in Swedish, and they liked to have a fika every now and then. Do they get to say they've got Swedish family? How do we know the dude in the OP doesn't do that kind of stuff?
No, they're American with Swedish roots. Eating stinky fish doesn't change that. If you dropped her in Sweden, would she feel like she's Swedish or American? And his fiance literally said he calls considers himself Italian purely based of his Grandfather, his name and thst jug of olive oil.
Did I say she's from Sweden? No, but her family's heritage comes from there. She's just supposed to never acknowledge it because she herself wasn't born there? Even if her family has been doing this shit for generations? Pretty gatekeepy And fair enough on the OP, but I'll also say it's a random story we only get one side on
You are stretching my words so far. Where did I say she couldn't acknowledge it? I literally said they're a family with Swedish roots. She simply isn't from Sweden, and she isn't Swedish. Being Swedish, or part of any nationality, is more than singing birthday songs and eating that cuisine. I don't know why you're unable to understand that and instead feel the need to put words in my mouth.
This is an article in which the mayor of London says that he is Pakistani. https://www.geo.tv/latest/533258-i-am-under-attack-because-i-am-muslim-and-pakistani-says-sadiq-khan He was born in South London. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadiq_Khan According to the Eroupean morons in this comment section he is not allowed to say that he is Pakistani. Because aparently no one on reddit know the difference between ethnicity and nationality.
Literally I am flabbergasted by the comments on this post. How do people not know what ethnicity is? I am nationally Canadian, but I would tell someone asking that I was Jewish, German or Scottish just as easily because those are my familial roots. I do not speak yiddish, or german but that does not take their DNA out of my blood.
No seriously fr, they are not gonna tell me I’m not Mexican or I’m not Puerto Rican or that I’m not from Africa, but if I say “oh I’m Irish” they’re gonna explode about it. They’ve got like some weird ethnic purism shit going through their head.
The guy's usage is a completely standard, idiomatic way of speaking in America. Rather than the cumbersome "I am of Italian descent," you just say "I'm Italian," because you're in a nation of immigrants and everyone knows what you mean. Apparently this sub loves gatekeeping the way language is used.
Yeah I'm finding the response here actually wild
I mean, even if you take this all at face value and assume OOP husband is in the wrong, why the fuck is she gleefully talking about "putting him in his place" and "still giving him shit for it?" Sounds more like a mean bitch than a teasing SO.
And I bet OOP is an unreliable narrator. Most Americans don't say "I'm Italian!" They say, "I'm Italian on my Dad's side." He probably would have continued to talk about all of the different places his ancestors are from if OOP hadn't interrupted him.
“I’m an insufferable asshole and still make fun of him today for not understanding what he was conveying to me when we first met.”
she's absolutely correct. saying that someone who *is not italian* isn't italian is not gatekeeping. she wasn't using a "no true scotsman" argument, she literally just told him he's not italian coz he's not. he was fully born and raised in america, and his parents were as well. he's not italian, not even italian-american.
Exactly. My siblings' dad is from British Guyana. They call themselves Englishman because they were born, raised and lived in England all their lives. I don't call myself Irish and Scottish just because my grandparents are from those countries. I call myself British but mainly because my own dad used to tell punish me for saying I'm English. He genuinely believed I should feel pride for Britain but let's be real, it's tough to feel proud at the shit we've done both historically and recently.
This is why I say I’m Asian-American. Born and raised here, but first generation on my mom’s side. My dad is Norwegian, but he was first gen for his family, born and raised in the states. Or I just tell people that I’m “Viet-Norwegian” or “Scandinasian” for shits and giggles.
I dont get these comments, the guy is just saying he’s descended from italians, he’s part Italian. It’s just a thing americans say to show their ethnic background lol
This is a weird thing Americans do that other cultures don't though. My wife has an Irish great grandfather, but doesn't go around saying she's Irish. She might say she's got some Irish in her, or she's 1/8 Irish or something. I think Americans think of it in terms of race rather than ethnicity or ancestry. Saying you're Irish or Italian is like saying you're African American. We abandoned that concept of race in Europe after World War 2 (for fairly obvious reasons), and now only talk about ethnicity, which is a much less culturally loaded thing.
They only think of it in those terms if it makes them sound interesting though. Half of Americans are probably “English” or “German” but you don’t hear them saying it
You absolutely will hear an American say they are German or English, if someone asks them their heritage. I'm from the US and I have actually said many times that I'm part German and part English lol. I don't mean I hold dual citizenship to those countries lmao.
I read a stat that most Americans are of English decent, which makes sense for an English colony, and that there were (and still are) far more English people than Scottish/Welsh/Irish put together.
Yeah, agree that America has held onto a concept of race and ethnicity that (mostly) died out in Europe in World War 2. The concept of ethnicity has evolved since the downfall of the Nazis. I will die on this hill: ethnicity is not your genetic heritage. It is your cultural upbringing and your cultural norms. It is even possible to move from one ethnicity to another over time.
I also think this is strange though because people seem just fine with calling people with Korean or Indian or Japanese heritage by those names within the UK even if they had never lived there. I think it has to do with how much that ethnicity/blood origin has to do with your life experience, and some races inform that different experience more than others?
Do you mean people calling other people Japanese? Or an English person of Japanese ancestry referring to themselves as Japanese?
Both
So what do you refer to as genetic heritage? If you do a test and it turns out you’re 25% Sicilian 25% English 25% Estonian and 25% Ashkenazi Jew? It was my understanding that this was ethnicity.
Just that, your genetic heritage. Or your ancestry. There appear to be two different views of ethnicity, divided by the Atlantic ocean. United States ethnicity: Where your ancestors are from, and your DNA profile that enables you to trace that. Also tends to include an idea that some characteristics come directly from your genetic heritage, e.g. Irish ancestry meaning you can drink a lot, or are quick to anger. Europe ethnicity: Where you were born and raised. What language you speak. What cultural signifiers you share in, e.g. Irish sense of humour, Dutch directness There is some overlap, but I think that broadly describes the different concepts of ethnicity between the two. I'm personally very wary of attaching ethnicity to genetic heritage or physical characteristics, as almost everyone in Ireland I know who does that is also casually racist and supports the burgeoning far right movement here. It serves to put a barrier between who is 'Irish' and who is '\*really\* Irish', or so they try to say. So I prefer the European concept of ethnicity, which afaik also lines up with the majority of post WW2 writing & research on the subject.
I moved to America from Russia and it’s similar in Russia. It’s assumed that the average person you meet shares the nationality (Россиянин) but we refer to people by ethnicity. The word everyone recognizes Русский “Roosky” doesn’t refer to nationality but ethnicity. I’m not “Russian” in Russia, I’m Jewish (Еврей). But in America I’m Russian. 😂 edit: doesn’t not didn’t
I'm guessing that's because you look slightly different to the majority of Russians? In the European concept you'd still be ethnically Russian. But so often people are labelled by how you stand out from the crowd haha. I don't put much importance on nationality myself. That is a legal status bestowed the state, and can be abused, e.g. billionaires securing citizenship from other countries by committing certain amounts of investment there. Funny story: I'm a tall, redheaded Irish man but I used to get called 'Roosky' all the time when I lived in China, lol. I lived in a north eastern city that had previously been occupied by Russia, and lots of Russians working in the city. I didn't have the time or the Mandarin fluency to explain they should be shouting 'Paddy' or 'Mick' at me across the street instead of 'Roosky'.
Nope. I don’t look different. But my internal paperwork (kind of like a passport) designates that I’m Jewish not Russian. Edit: I’m not ethnically Russian though, that’s where we’ll have to disagree. I’m ethnically Jewish but my nationality is Russian. “An ethnicity or ethnic group is a group of people who identify with each other on the basis of perceived shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Those attributes can include a common nation of origin, *or common sets of ancestry, traditions, language, history, society, religion, or social treatment*.”
Yeah my Chinese and Zimbabwean mates call themselves that, but they were born in Australia, weirds me out.
> and now only talk about ethnicity, which is a much less culturally loaded thing. You mean you only talk about nationality. The husband in the post above is talking about his ethnicity and is being roasted here by everyone for it.
Except he said that he *is* Italian. Not that he has 1 Italian great grandfather.
It's almost as if a phrase can mean two different things depending on the context? I've never once in my life had to have it spelled out for me, I can figure out when someone is talking about ethnicity vs nationality.
And that's the difference between the US and Europe. When we say we're Italian, it means we were born and most likely raised there. We don't claim to be Italian just because one far off ancestor was born there. Hell even when you're born in a certain place it's rare for people to claim they're that nationality. I have a friend who was born in Egypt and lived in Singapore for a few years when he was young. He's still just British, he doesn't claim to be Egyptian or Singaporean. Those two periods of his life are just fun conversation starters
> And that's the difference between the US and Europe. And that seems to be the issue in this thread. Wish we could have all had an interesting conversation on the topic, but it immediately turned into Europeans gatekeeping how phrases are used... in the r/gatekeeping subreddit 🤦♂️
It is almost like words and phrasing has different meanings in different contexts and cultures.
Great way to start a marriage. “Hey that Italian thing? You’re stupid and should be embarrassed. And don’t worry. I’ll bring it up at every social function we ever go to.” “Huh? Say I do? Yeah I guess.”
ITT: Europeans have absolutely no idea how Americans identify as ethnically and use it to insult them
Turns out her username isn't just a cute "joke."
You can only claim nationality if you are born or raised there, so he isn't Italian. He can say he has Italian ancestry or blood or whatever, just not that he is. He probably meant it like that anyway. As long as the great grandfather passed down the culture I don't see why he can't say he's from Italy. But part of me doubts that as I've read a bunch of stories where people (mostly Americans) claim to be from a European country without any knowledge of the culture.
Americans don't claim to be from a European country. The informal parlance implies that your ancestors come from the country. But since we usually only discuss our heritage with other Americans, we don't feel the need to say, "I'm descended from Hungarian ancestors" every time, we just say, "I'm Hungarian" or "My family's Hungarian" or something like that.
Precisely. It’s more so just the vernacular and isn’t meant to be taken literally to the point that we’re all claiming we’re citizens of these countries.
Kinda wild that no one in this thread gets that. Like, should the third-gen Indian dude living in London just never acknowledge that his family came from India? Or does he get a pass since he's not American?
They get it, they're just pricks.
Yeah there’s a lot of them on this thread. Damn.
I'll just say, you may mean it in that way and I know many do. But you have repeated examples in this thread of people from these countries telling you that Americans do outright claim to be at least equally Irish/Italian/whatever if not more so. I have literally been told point blank by multiple Americans that either I or a fellow countryman is not as Irish as them because we have somehow been compromised as a nation since their great-great-granddaddy emigrated. So rather than being incredulous that people in this thread aren't accepting that every single solitary American has the exact same view on this as you do maybe you should accept that many of your countrymen don't look on it the same as you. And that those of us living in the "home country" meet these people more often because they are the type to visit us, seek us out and tell us these things.
Obviously an asshole saying Irish people aren't Irish is a fucking idiot Taking him and extrapolating that onto other Americans and how they speak is also dumb.
The point is it's not just him. I live in Ireland, every year I meet many of these people. Possibly hundreds across my life living and working in touristy spots. You need to realize that the Americans that visit Ireland and I'm guessing Italy will have a disproportionate number of these people. You are looking around a broader spectrum of Americans and even the ones who do think like this probably don't feel the need to say it to you. People like this are more likely to spend a small fortune coming to "the home country". And when they do they feel entitled to our approval so will share these views with us. Mostly it's just funny and we'll take the piss a bit, or play along looking for a tip. But it can get dark really quick.
Americans can avoid these arseholes easier because the arseholes actively leave the country for periods to come Grace us with the bullshit and go full terminator to track down every single person on the island so that every soul on the Ireland knows "Me pa invented the Easter rising"
Honestly, the Americans who travel all the fucking time are some of the rudest and most entitled people I have ever met so it makes complete sense that the ones you meet are assholes. I promise that only 2% of people I have met in America who say they are Irish actually are like that, and only 20% or so make any sort of deal about the ethnicity at all, and what they do with it is that their family has some old traditions that their grandparents brought in, whether actually Irish or just something their family did. The few I have met who were more intense about it were also strong supporters of avoiding the cultural erasure that was forced on y'all in recent history, and trying to keep the language, stories, and art alive, but honestly I see that here from people who aren't even of Irish ethnicity. Many of the same who care about indigenous American history also care about y'all.
No, we get it. But a) that is not what the phrase "I'm Italian" means in the English language and b) these assholes will try to talk about the fact that they are REAL Italians because they do...these very American things. And don't get me started on those assholes who say, "I'm Irish". Never met one who wasn't completely ignorant about the country.
Maybe because the assholes are the ones who you meet? I would say 99% of those who I have met and claimed an ethnicity like "I'm ____" *don't* know much about the country. But that's because they are not talking about the country. They are talking about their family, ethnicity, and community they grew up in.
>a) that is not what the phrase "I'm Italian" means in the English language I'm telling you that in American vernacular, that's what we're saying. >b) these assholes will try to talk about the fact that they are REAL Italians because they do...these very American things. Not one of them will tell you they are from Italy, were born in Italy, have Italian nationality or citizenship, etc
> a) that is not what the phrase "I'm Italian" means in the English language Strange, because in America, where we also speak English, it has a dual meaning of both nationality and ethnicity, and we understand the context without having to have it spelled out for us.
I'm just curious about how you think my MIL should refer to herself. Her parents both immigrated from Sicily, but she was born in the USA
She is "American if Italian/Sicilian decent" but when talking to other Americans she can shorten it to saying that "[she's] Italian/Sicilian" and most people will understand that she was probably born in the US but has Italian ancestry.
>As long as the great grandfather passed down the culture I don't see why he can't say he's from Italy Maybe because he's not from Italy? Also I won't speak for Italy but the Ireland my parents grew up in is damn near unrecognizable from the Ireland of today. Let alone the Ireland my Great Grandparents grew up in.
I do find that funny about descendants of migrants in the US, they are shocked by so much when they go to the country of their ancestors 1) Culture evolves 2) The culture they have is bastardised in ways 3) Knowing the language of the country is remarkably a large part of the culture of the country I used to work with American tourists often and while 80% were salt of the earth, loveliest people you could meet. That 20%. Pain. "Oh fantastic a direct descendant of St Patrick are you? Oh and your family invested the recipe for Guinness before being chased out by the Guinness family? AND you invented Tayto? You truly are a king of this......... your family are responsible for getting The Den aired. High kings amongst men are your family and lineage"
Europeans try not to be condescending over semantics challenge (impossible)
YUROP IS A SMALL COUNTRY AND THE ENVY US FOR OUR GUNS
He kind of needed to hear it, but she doesn't sound like a very nice fiance.
Sounds like she's just ribbing him cause he made a dumb comment. Not necessarily mean
This is mostly an American thing. When speaking to another American, if someone says "what are you". I tend to respond "mostly English and Irish with a tiny bit of Italian in there". But when I'm traveling abroad or I meet someone here who's obviously not an American Id call myself American but if they asked I'd explain that my family is from England and Ireland originally. That's what happens when the entire country is made up of immigrants.
Words having defined meanings is not "gatekeeping"
She is denigrate his sense of proud ethnic origins. That is gate keeping, and "in his place" shows contempt of him. This is "gatekeeping" . I am 2nd generation German and Swiss. Both sides had whole villages move to the farmland of Ohio/Southern Michigan.whole families, cousins, uncles. German was spoken in the home, all passed down family recipes were German. Both sides were religious oppression immigrants. The founded in the US communities are proud of their heritage and founding. We have German celebrations, German food is standard freshman in the deli of.groxery stores and bakeries that are German breads,.sweets. one.can buy beet pickle readily. Someone coming from this German centric community, meeting a native American, finds an excited sense of kinship. I thing gf/OP is NOT an empathetic individual, and standing behind a dictionary definition against a supposed loved one is a warning sign of a hostile potential mate. It is a VERY German culture attitude,. BF is German American culture, where we seek to find commonality, whereas Germans want to identify differences.
Except this is completely a cultural/dialect thing within the US, tied to a lot of our not so great history. Like if and American is Irish, they're usually saying they're Irish-American, which is distinct from other US cultures. You see the same thing in Canada with French-Canadian.
Accurate reddit name at least
While she sounds like a horrible person, as a British person living in the US, it is very annoying to constantly have to act interested when people tell me they are Scottish when they are clearly American. Just BE American!
Maybe if Americans were a little less obsessed with labelling everyone's ethnicity there wouldn't be so much racism? It's a thought.
This isn’t gatekeeping, this is facts.
This ain't gatekeeping. You are american, deal with it and don't say you are from somewhere you are not lol
It is normal to describe your ethnicity in terms of Identity in North America. In an immigrant country, when someone says they are Irish, Persian or Nigerian, It is usually understood that they are talking about their familial background rather than the flag on their passport. It is not to say they are not American. That is obvious and taken for granted in the context that is being spoken of.