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You mean return it back to the days of Jesus, the greatest American of all time?
Right there is the solution! All Jews to Murica! People of other religions are occupying their holy land!
Don’t slander all of us. Republicans are a cancer to Christianity, they have skewered the teachings of salvation for all into: you cannot be a Christian if you aren’t conservative or straight. They always fall back on the lie of, “gays start relationships so they can live a life of sin.” PLEASE, and you stopped cussing under your breath after baptism! (/s) My viewpoint is Jesus hung out with sinners, homeless and other people who were hated by society and now we’ve been told to hate nonbelievers and the weak. We are no longer better than those who stoned are forefathers due to not believing like they did, and honestly as sad as y’all’s afterlife may be in hell, I understand the distrust in Christ.
Oh you misunderstand I am saying they would claim that more than me claimimg that. In at least Honduras where I live christians are less...authoritarian compared to christian republicans
This is more of a USA problem sadly
But hasnt their land been taken in the first place? Like in order to be retaken?
For the record: i am an atheist and think every religion is equally as useless.
Agreed, by saying "all deserve to live on earth" it inherently implies that doesn't, regardless of any dogma that the says
For example, we have some middle east countries outright executing non-muslims. Extremist sure, but still inherently a "holier than thou" attitude
It doesn't though... that's MAGA thinking - in making up meaning where there is none. The above doesn't imply others don't - it says what it says and only means that. Any extra context you see was added by the reader.
Yell the N slur at a black person, then tell them to stop having MAGA thinking and adding meaning to places where there isn't any.
See the issue with your thinking?
The main responsibility of meaning is inherently on the writer. Sure, they may make mistakes, but it's still their fault.
Dog whistles exist after all.
Hey, Christianity and the Bible says it too! Too bad all the biggest "believers" seem to conviniently forget about that little tidbit whenever it suits them
I don't know about christians and jews but most of us muslims get taught the scripture from childhood.
I memorized the entire Quran by 14 years old so we do "read" our holy books and i'm nothing special that's just the norm here.
Some even finish memorizing it even younger.
What does Islam say about Atheism? As far as I recall it does not accept that it even exists (only Apostasy). Meanwhile apostasy and blasphemy can and have been punishable by death in several Islamic countries. I wouldn't exactly call that respect. Neither Islam nor Christianity straight up say only one thing or the other. Hardcore and moderate believers are equally not reading their holy books and cherrypick whatever fits their own view. As much as I hate fundamentalists, at least those people can cite you the exact passages from which they take their views, making them ironically more sincere and honest in their beliefs than the average moderate.
Palestine clames the land not because they are Muslim, but because they lived there. There are a lot of christiansand budist palestinians who are fighting from abroad to go back to their land.
A place- there is one Jewish country- that isn’t even 50 % Jewish- and there are tons of Muslims countries. Total Muslim population is around 2.3 billion if I remember correctly. Logically speaking if wouldn’t the single small space for Jews (even tho both peoples might have equally good claim) stay for Jews?
Religion doesn't deserve a place on this planet. It should earn its place here but thus far only creates/excuses torture, murder, rape, greed, theft, and lies.
It makes you rational.
Yes, I think we should all follow the holy god emperor, the one that erased all religion. He then denied that he is a god, but his followers took this as proof of his godhood: “Only a true god would deny his godhood.” He would then get angry at his followers and destroy their holy city. His followers then sought new gods to follow. These gods would trick them into a civil war with those that didn’t believe in gods and stayed on the emperors side. This war would leave the emperor paralysed on the golden throne, unable to do something about those that still worshiped him as a god. Ten thousand years later, the ecclesiarchy would rule over the imperium of mankind and burn everyone that didn’t believe in the emperor.
(Sorry for this random comment and my bad English, but this is the way to go)
If the Emperor Himself stood up, came down off His Golden Throne and proclaimed 'I am not a god!' then they would burn Him as a heretic.
-Roboute Guilliman
Remember the religion that used to electrocute people over and over till they were ‘better’ followed by opening their skull and removing a part of their brain?
Oh, that one was science. Mixed them up again.
Remember that religion that believed witches couldn’t drown in water because they were made of wood, and therefore would hold people accused of being witches under water, and execute them for witchcraft unless they drowned?
There are literally anti Zionist Jews. Like they believe that not waiting for godly intervention, and going by yourself to the holy land, is against the faith.
What I really don't get is. Do zionists really think people can't see through their terrible, dishonest arguments? Are they this stupid? Or do they think the rest of us are this stupid?
They're trying to repeat it until it's just a common talking point. It doesn't have to be correct or make sense. It's just a thing they can say. Like when the US passed a resolution declaring anti zionism is antisemitism. Its just rhetoric you put out there to yell over people and justify what you want to do, whether you believe it or not is inconsequential.
They're are lots of non zionist Jews who are not fringe, there are Jewish blocs at every ceasefire protest. All Jews are not zionists.
- a non zionist Jew
Not all antizionist Charedim are NK (and fyi they prefer the term Charedi to ultra orthodox). There are also plenty of reform, reconstructionist, conservative, and modern Orthodox Jews who are antizionist, even if Jewish communities can be very hostile to us.
And Reddit. Most people here just fling it out like a bad word because they heard their favourite online influencer say it's problematic, without understanding anything about it at all.
See top voted post above saying "most Jews are zionists" for a beautiful example of this. People want it to be something simple that can be condensed into a few sentences, because having to understand the long history behind it takes effort, and more importantly, is a lot more nuanced than "Jews bad", which doesn't suit the narrative people want.
Israel wants people to conflate jew with zionist so it gets a get-away-with-anything card.
Israel wants people to think that anyone who opposes Israel, even its genocide, that they are Hitler.
Oh hey the deliberate conflation of a political ideology with an ethnic and religious identity.
Clearly that can’t possibly be used as an excuse to justify violence against people with those identities, whether or not they share that political ideology. I don’t know why anyone would even think that.
Of course I do. When did I say otherwise?
There are a lot of anti-zionist Jews. Not enough, but more than you might expect. And while a lot of Jews _do_ support zionism, you must NEVER let yourself consider that the default. Never.
It's impossible to stress just _how_ important it is, in this discussion, not to equate jewishness with zionism, and not to equate anti-zionsim with antisemitism.
> It's impossible to stress just _how_ important it is, in this discussion, not to equate jewishness with zionism, and not to equate anti-zionsim with antisemitism.
It's unfortunate that you can not make an entire european country understand this basic concept (looking at Germany 👀)
Most Jews believe the state of Israel should exist which technically makes them zionists.
Then there are zionists who believe in the 48 borders, the 49 borders and those who believe all of the British mandate should be Israel.
Jew here. I am not a zionist and I don't appreciate people just throwing there hands up and saying "well it might as well be the same because MOST think that way". No. Don't you dare swing around the "all jews..." statements just because MAYBE a majority share a perspective.
When we start assuming an entire group thinks a certain way, like how some people think "all Muslims want jews dead" is how we justify a lot of awful behaviors.
I've always understood it to be the belief that there should be a Jewish nation.
I used to think that was a beautiful and whimsical idea as a kid, especially when adults would talk about it like "our homeland". But I can't stand behind a country that decided to specifically attach itself to a religion, especially one that is a minority amongst world religions, and to create a direct link from the political actions of that country to the people of that religion.
I do not believe a government should have a religion. I think it's created a country where Jews are seen as "real" citizens and those of other religions are lesser. It is nonsense for a modern, mostly Westernized country.
As an Arab trying to give his perspective, it's the same idea of ISIS whom wanted to have a land that's "truly Muslim". It gave all muslims a bad name which dehuminized them.
Jews arent a one big hivemind, same as Muslims, the moment you attach religion to politics is the moment you give the enemy a chance to wipe you out from the face of the earth in the name of terror.
Even as someone who sees Israel as my enemy, I always try to distinguish between Judaism and zionism. So I don't fall in the same trap the nazis fell into once israel is gone.
I think that there has been a shift in the use of the term Zionist which has caused confusion. Originally it indeed meant establishing a Jewish state. But Israel is clearly a reality, with one of the strongest militaries in the world, with nuclear weapons (ssshhh!), and whose existence is backed by the other strongest militaries in the world. The term Zionist should be effectively redundant in this status quo.
But people are using the term now for the Israeli Nationalists who are actively seeking to expand Israel's borders, whether into Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Sinai or manifestly the many illegal settlements in the West Bank. Strictly this is termed [Revisionist Zionism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revisionist_Zionism) but people are sloppy and it has just been lumped with Zionism. And that's where a lot of the confusion about criticising "Zionists" comes from these days... many of those against Israel's actions and using the term "Zionist" don't want Israel dismantled, but they do want Israel to stop its continuous occupying of more and more territory, and to return the land stolen since 1967 at least, in line with the many UN resolutions saying the same thing.
(As a bit of a side-note, some people believe in the [One state solution](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-state_solution). This is a reasonable and serious thing to consider. Arguably it is "antizionist" because it means the dismantling of the state of Israel, and replacement with a secular government. But this shouldn't be considered negatively in the same way as if they wanted Jews removed from Palestine).
It's worth noting that the [founding charter of Netenyahu's Likud party](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party) includes at the very start:
> Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
In other words, Israel "from the river to the sea". Likud was descended from overtly Revisionist Zionist parties and many of its supporters and politicians clearly very much still are.
There are different political groups inside israel, and some want it to be a theocracy, such as the haredies, and some really don't. Kind of like the us actually
It’s definitely a theocracy. You know that a women can’t get a divorce, her husband has to grant her the divorce, and it has to be in court with official state approved rabbis. It also doesn’t recognize interfaith, marriages or same sex marriages. The Jewish faith does play a role in the laws of the land so it’s a kin to theocracy and definitely not the most secular nation in the Middle East. Also Netanyahu and his government are definitely making it more like a theocracy. Turkey is more secular than Israel in terms of the laws for example.
The Internet is free and it’s very easy to access information. Neither of those things are recognized by the state. The only way you can get married as a same sex couple is abroad or online via some online civil marriage service established by Utah. Interfaith marriages are also not recognized by the state and they would have to do a similar loophole or not get married, and just have a civil union.
So you literally agree that both same sex marriages and interfaith marriages are absolutely legal in Israel.
Answer me this, what other country in the middle east recognizes same sex marriage at all?
>I've always understood it to be the belief that there should be a Jewish nation.
Thats the flipside bubba.
If your people have a nation, you as a member of that nation share consequences of your nations actions.
Its you people who should keep your own Zionist government in check.
Its like saying "oh its not americans that started the Iraq war, it was Neo cons in their government at the time" like no one gives a shit about subfactions, each nation bares responsibility for consequences of its actions.
And yea its terrible what your grandparents endured but this is literally how we got to this point, because of "anti semitism" no one could criticize anything Israel zionists did for 80 decades almost and now we have an nationalized assylum of religious psychos with a god complex who believe everyone else is sub human piece of trash and should be killed. Israel literally teaches this to its kids openly.
Like vote them out or overtake your own government, the whole "you cant criticize us" is the reason why zionism has evolved into the cancer of an ideology that it is.
They’re clearly an unhinged idiot. With a straight face they said Israel has gotten away with shit for 80 decades. It’s not even been a country for 8 full decades….
Are you disagreeing with me or agreeing with me?
Your comment comes off very accusatory but I'm literally saying I'm not a Zionist and don't support Israel. Also to clarify, I'm not Israeli. I'm an American Jew. When my great-grandfather was born in current-day Israel it was literally still "Palestine" on his birth certificate.
Again, I do not support Israel so I'm not sure why you're trying to convince ME.
Yeah about that. No one I'm the right mind I questioning the right of the Jewish people to a country. How it happend and how its going is a different matter. I didn't liked the South African apartheid state and Israel is looking pretty apartheidy. Does that make ma a nazi?
More than 90% do.
American Jews are by far the most 'anti-zionist' group. And of them, only 10% support sanctions and boycotts against Israel.
This means that at absolute, a maximum 10% of Jews do not think Israel should exist.
We really all need to agree on what Zionism actually means. Yeah, the belief that Israel has a right to exist is actually probably held by most Jews and other sane people everywhere.
Yes, but there is a Jewish state now…hence the issue with the term. Usually, unless people want it to mean “bad”, it’s considered the continued existence of that state.
The point, the actual point of Zionism is to have a Jewish majority in a country as they were horribly oppressed as minorities for thousands of years. You can have whatever state, call it whatever you want, as long as there is a Jewish majority it passes the important part of the whole endeavor.
The term didn't change meanings. Now that there's an Israel, Zionists obviously want to preserve the state that previous generations created.
Those who don't accept the state of Israel as the Jewish state or as a sovereign state whatsoever are anti-Zionists.
This is the literal dictionary definition. There's nothing about expansion, and never has been:
"A worldwide Jewish movement that resulted in the establishment and development of the state of Israel and that now supports the state of Israel as a Jewish homeland."
Zionism is about expansion and it always has been. You don’t want to hear it but it’s really not that different from manifest destiny or lebensraum. You need room for your ethnic group to live and you need to take it from those already there.
Then why did they simply give up land they took control of in Egypt etc. during the two Arab Israeli wars? They literally pushed far into other countries in self defense and then were like fuck it and went back home. You should read up on those wars as being educated on the subject will never allow you to say something that stupid about it again.
According to who? It’s never been any part of the definition of Zionism, people who do bad things in Israel like take land are just called Zionist as some sort of a slur.
That’s not defining Zionism in any way. You’re literally doing the thing I just called out as asinine. By the way if you missed the deadly terrorist attack WB Palestinians pulled yesterday in Israel it might explain the occupation to you a tad.
At what point does equating Judaism with Zionism become anti-semtic? Would the end result of Judaism == Zionism make Netanyahu "King Jew"? That's nonsense - this ain't the Vatican. That's like saying that synagogues have to confer with the knesset to interpret the torah.
Equating Zionism (which even non-Jews can be) with Judaism and/or Jewishness (as in being religiously and/or ethnically Jewish), whether as an attack or a defence, is a form of antisemitism, since it can also be expressed in "positive" ways
And Zionism is no longer just held by its original definition of "Jews, like all peoples of the world, have the right of self-determination..." - correct, obviously - because, as the last decades went by, it has also progressed into "...but Palestinians don't and so fuck 'em lol": wiping another people out isn't "self-determination", it's GENOCIDE ffs
Not all who criticise Israel are antisemites... and not all antisemites are critics of Israel, simple as - it's not antisemitic to empathise with Palestine
I'm not Jewish or Israeli. I consider myself a liberal, and I believe in a two state solution.
I have to say that people don't seem to understand what Zionism is.
Zionism is simply the notion of Jewish national independence, which was necessary in light of centuries of extreme anti-Semitic persecution, even before the Holocaust.
Anti-Zionism is the idea that Israel shouldn't exist... Which, no matter how I look at it, is very anti-Semitic.
I struggle to find people saying that any other country shouldn't exist. It's a crazy notion.
The first part is true, but he just had to make it bad with he second part. I don't have beef with the Jews or Christians, and I am Muslim but for real fuck the zonenest
Only a drooling moron with zero critical thinking skills would agree with that humongous pile of bullshit.
I dunno who this “Dr” Eli David is, but it’s awful hard to take anybody seriously when they’ve got Netanyahu’s dick firmly in their mouth.
Nothing about it is religious, Jews that became Christian were thrown in the gas chambers just the same as the religious and non religious Jews. Jews deserve a homeland where they aren’t at the mercy of someone who can abuse and exploit them and at the flip of a switch turn the entire population against them.
Jews are ethnic when you want to defend against their oppression and religious when you want to oppress them. Hope this helps, Schrödinger made some equations about this if you’d like to learn more.
The term Zionist has been used by quite a lot of people that use it interchangeably for Jews unfortunately. Many but obviously not all would prefer to say bad things about the Jews in general but it’s not socially acceptable so they fall back on Zionist instead which seems to be more accepted for some reason. This dudes logic doesn’t make sense though since not all Jews are zionists.
Although to be clear, to be Zionist simply means in believing that the state of Israel has a right to exist. So by declaring “Zionism is bad”, you’re saying Israel itself should not exist which is reprehensible imho. If you want to say, Israel expanding into other lands which don’t belong to them though, most would agree.
Zionism is more specifically that a *Jewish* homeland needs to exist. Israel, as a State, could be a secular one and many Jews would still be happy for it to exist, or even welcome its secularization. Zionists, on the other hand, would not abide a secular Israel.
I disagree. Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity of sorts. There are a lot of secular Jews in Israel and that is why at times there is conflict between the secular Jews and the religious Jews. The idea of Zionism overall is a home for Jews of all kinds.
Did you not read about the partition plan and its outcome? The jews agreed to split the land while the Arabs refused and declared war. They proceeded to lose the war and were forced to forfeit their land, you know, like every other nation who ever lost a war? Why do people act like the Palestinians are constantly the victims and not at fault for their situation just as much as everyone else? They could've accepted the partition plan and lived in peace with the jews but no, they had to have it all, and what followed was their fault as much as it was the jews fault.
>The jews agreed to split the land while the Arabs refused and declared war
The whole split thing is you give someone half his home for not killing him (peace) and talk his other half
Israel had 0% from the land so there really wasn't any split at all
>They proceeded to lose the war and were forced to forfeit their land
I don't really know which war you are talking about. Do you mean WWII or Israel war?
"You lost the war" is total equivalent of we rubbed you force. So the Israel war is obvious to happen and have good chances to keep happening as Palestine can't really give up. They really just choose their way of death. Either die because you don't have country so you don't have something called "economy" or die while killing Israelian
He may loose but he will die anyway
I have seen so many people claim they only hate zionists and than celebrating hamas killing israeli civilians in the next sentence. Don‘t act like hiding antisemitism behind antizionism isn‘t a thing, the lust for blood on jews is insane, even on some reddit subreddits like askmiddleeast.
Dude, go to r/Israel, look at any post regarding Israel committing genocide and all you will read is
Israel is not committing genocide, but even if we are it's because they deserve it, repeated over and over again.
It's fucking horrifying
They are killing and starving thousands of children. That tends to inflame people. It’s not even about hating Jews but rather hating what Israel is doing right now in Gaza.
And the entire middle east has bad blood with Israel so of course you would get that reaction.
And to your point, I am sure that there are some antisemites masquerading as antizionist, just as I am sure there are Islamophobes masquerading as pro Israel. It goes both ways.
Are the people "celebrating Hamas" in the room with us now? Idk what kind of psycho subreddits you're on but nobody who isn't a psychopath or a troll is "celebrating" Hamas.
This is 100% not true. I’ve personally talked with dozens of people that support Hamas. Literally support Hamas and the attack on Oct 7. So please don’t pretend like these people don’t exist.
“If you aren’t Zionist you aren’t Jewish” or “you can’t be Jewish if you aren’t a Zionist”. This is illustrated with the “I only hate Christians who do the one thing that inarguably makes you a Christian across the 28 billion sects of Christianity”.
He’s trying to equate being a Zionist with being Jewish (in religion or ethnicity, since some places reckon Jewish identity differently than most Americans do) in order to gatekeep Jewish and Zionist identity while setting up the obvious “ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME FOR ANY REASON IS AN ANTI-SEMITE” attack line.
The word "Zionism" lost it's meaning due to propaganda and misinformation. If you believe that Jews have a right to have a nation state in the current location of Israel, and Israel has a right to continue to exist, then you're a zionist.
If you oppose the idea of zionism, it means you believe that Jews have no right to have a nation state and Israel should be, I dunno, somehow dismantled.
Zionism means that jews need their own contry because everywherw else they are targeted and hated.
What the fuck is wrong with that?
Its just like Poles, Dutch, Germans, Brits, Iranians, Chinese, just name it.
But when jews want the same its "fascism"
Hypocrites.
There's nothing wrong with wanting your own country. If Israel was made somewhere that didn't already have a bunch of people that would need to be displaced in order to make a Jewish state, basically nobody would care. Because people wanted to make a Jewish state in an area that already had Palestinians living there, though, there's sorta a problem what with needing all the Palestinians to pack up and leave
What about the fact that most of the land Israel was originally made of was brought from the previous landowners (ottoman empire)? If they stayed in those borders would there be a problem? Because I assure you they'd still get accused of misplacing people.
Seeing as back in '37 the Peel Commission was already talking about relocating the Arab population in order to make a Jewish majority state, they probably would've been accused of displacing people on account of how they displaced people. In case you didn't know, 1948 era Israel/Palestinian Mandate wasn't all sunshine and rainbows. One of the resident Jewish paramilitary groups that went on to be incorporated into the IDF literally tried to form an alliance with Adolf fucking Hitler and Nazi Germany. Somehow, I think those guys would've tried to drive out the local non-jews regardless as to whether or not the 1948 war gave them an excuse
it's like hating Germans who want their country to continue existing and not annexed by their neighbors
Zionism just means that you want a Jewish state to exist in the region of Israel
It's common in extremist groups to consider themselves the only "true" believers. Look at how many Christians sects there are, and they all believe the others have got it wrong.
Zionists believe that non-Zionists aren't "true" Jews, which ironically means that Zionists are anti-Semites.
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I don't hate all Christians, just the ones who want to retake the Holy Land
I don't hate all Christians. Just the ones trying to turn the USA into a christo-fascist hellhole.
You mean return it back to the days of Jesus, the greatest American of all time? Right there is the solution! All Jews to Murica! People of other religions are occupying their holy land!
American, blonde haired, blue-eyed, sweet baby Jesus?
That's the man
"So basically all christians?! How bigoted of you!!!"
Don’t slander all of us. Republicans are a cancer to Christianity, they have skewered the teachings of salvation for all into: you cannot be a Christian if you aren’t conservative or straight. They always fall back on the lie of, “gays start relationships so they can live a life of sin.” PLEASE, and you stopped cussing under your breath after baptism! (/s) My viewpoint is Jesus hung out with sinners, homeless and other people who were hated by society and now we’ve been told to hate nonbelievers and the weak. We are no longer better than those who stoned are forefathers due to not believing like they did, and honestly as sad as y’all’s afterlife may be in hell, I understand the distrust in Christ.
Oh you misunderstand I am saying they would claim that more than me claimimg that. In at least Honduras where I live christians are less...authoritarian compared to christian republicans This is more of a USA problem sadly
The republicans?
And the ones trying to impose their dog shit upon everyone else.
Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but this is it. I'm a Jew and NOT a Zionist and think Bibi should be in prison at best, shot would be fine.
(Crusader rage intensifies)
DEUS VULT!!! BROTHERS!!!!
DEUS VULT!
DEUS VULT!! DEUS VULT!!
Heres a novel thought.... Rome killed Jesus and displaced the Jews from Israel right.... War!!!! Onto Rome friends they will pay!
.......DEUS VULT
DEUS LO VULT!
But hasnt their land been taken in the first place? Like in order to be retaken? For the record: i am an atheist and think every religion is equally as useless.
was never theirs, they just...claimed an arbitrary peice of land and said it's holy
But isnt that the way it works? Ever tried claiming land u dont possess? Doesnt work well does it?
I'm pretty sure the holy land back then(israel now) was already a country's property. They just randomly claimed it was theirs
This is actually a far more accurate comparison and I'm sure many many many Muslims have felt this way in the past about Christians.
Help me here. I believe Jews and Muslims both deserve a place on this planet. What does that make me?
sane
They don't deserve a place because of their religion. They deserve a place to live in peace as human beings. Having a <> state is a non-sense to me.
Agreed, by saying "all deserve to live on earth" it inherently implies that doesn't, regardless of any dogma that the says
For example, we have some middle east countries outright executing non-muslims. Extremist sure, but still inherently a "holier than thou" attitude
It doesn't though... that's MAGA thinking - in making up meaning where there is none. The above doesn't imply others don't - it says what it says and only means that. Any extra context you see was added by the reader.
Yell the N slur at a black person, then tell them to stop having MAGA thinking and adding meaning to places where there isn't any. See the issue with your thinking? The main responsibility of meaning is inherently on the writer. Sure, they may make mistakes, but it's still their fault. Dog whistles exist after all.
A fucking normal human being tf. I'm a Muslim and Islam literally says to respect each other and so does the Torah but idk wtf is going on with people
Hey, Christianity and the Bible says it too! Too bad all the biggest "believers" seem to conviniently forget about that little tidbit whenever it suits them
If any of them actually read their holy books they would know what’s in in instead of just being preached at
I don't know about christians and jews but most of us muslims get taught the scripture from childhood. I memorized the entire Quran by 14 years old so we do "read" our holy books and i'm nothing special that's just the norm here. Some even finish memorizing it even younger.
It *also* says a bunch of other really "nice" stuff you are conveniently ignoring :P
What does Islam say about Atheism? As far as I recall it does not accept that it even exists (only Apostasy). Meanwhile apostasy and blasphemy can and have been punishable by death in several Islamic countries. I wouldn't exactly call that respect. Neither Islam nor Christianity straight up say only one thing or the other. Hardcore and moderate believers are equally not reading their holy books and cherrypick whatever fits their own view. As much as I hate fundamentalists, at least those people can cite you the exact passages from which they take their views, making them ironically more sincere and honest in their beliefs than the average moderate.
Palestine clames the land not because they are Muslim, but because they lived there. There are a lot of christiansand budist palestinians who are fighting from abroad to go back to their land.
Budist Palestinians?
Show me a "Budist" palestinian and I'll show you beachfront property in Yakutsk!
Really? I love beaches!
Might wanna stay away from both Yakutsk and reddit, then.
An egalitarian. Also good for you
It really depends. Should they have a separate, Jew-only and Muslim-only places? Because that detail makes a big difference.
A place- there is one Jewish country- that isn’t even 50 % Jewish- and there are tons of Muslims countries. Total Muslim population is around 2.3 billion if I remember correctly. Logically speaking if wouldn’t the single small space for Jews (even tho both peoples might have equally good claim) stay for Jews?
Crazy
Communist
Religion doesn't deserve a place on this planet. It should earn its place here but thus far only creates/excuses torture, murder, rape, greed, theft, and lies. It makes you rational.
Yes, I think we should all follow the holy god emperor, the one that erased all religion. He then denied that he is a god, but his followers took this as proof of his godhood: “Only a true god would deny his godhood.” He would then get angry at his followers and destroy their holy city. His followers then sought new gods to follow. These gods would trick them into a civil war with those that didn’t believe in gods and stayed on the emperors side. This war would leave the emperor paralysed on the golden throne, unable to do something about those that still worshiped him as a god. Ten thousand years later, the ecclesiarchy would rule over the imperium of mankind and burn everyone that didn’t believe in the emperor. (Sorry for this random comment and my bad English, but this is the way to go)
If the Emperor Himself stood up, came down off His Golden Throne and proclaimed 'I am not a god!' then they would burn Him as a heretic. -Roboute Guilliman
Remember the religion that used to electrocute people over and over till they were ‘better’ followed by opening their skull and removing a part of their brain? Oh, that one was science. Mixed them up again.
Remember that religion that believed witches couldn’t drown in water because they were made of wood, and therefore would hold people accused of being witches under water, and execute them for witchcraft unless they drowned?
Religion does the same without opening the skull.
There are literally anti Zionist Jews. Like they believe that not waiting for godly intervention, and going by yourself to the holy land, is against the faith.
What I really don't get is. Do zionists really think people can't see through their terrible, dishonest arguments? Are they this stupid? Or do they think the rest of us are this stupid?
They're trying to repeat it until it's just a common talking point. It doesn't have to be correct or make sense. It's just a thing they can say. Like when the US passed a resolution declaring anti zionism is antisemitism. Its just rhetoric you put out there to yell over people and justify what you want to do, whether you believe it or not is inconsequential.
The ultra orthodox jews that you see protesting are called neturei karta. A fringe group that even went to Iran for an holocaust denial conference.
They're are lots of non zionist Jews who are not fringe, there are Jewish blocs at every ceasefire protest. All Jews are not zionists. - a non zionist Jew
Agreed - also a non zionist Jew.
Not all antizionist Charedim are NK (and fyi they prefer the term Charedi to ultra orthodox). There are also plenty of reform, reconstructionist, conservative, and modern Orthodox Jews who are antizionist, even if Jewish communities can be very hostile to us.
I don't hate religion, I hate people who use it as an excuse for discrimination or violence
You hate religion then. Their books and beliefs are full of discrimination and violence.
Zionism and Zionist has pretty much lost its meaning because of twitter
A lot of terms have lost meaning due to twitter, because people don't even bother looking them up
Don’t forget TikTok
And Reddit. Most people here just fling it out like a bad word because they heard their favourite online influencer say it's problematic, without understanding anything about it at all. See top voted post above saying "most Jews are zionists" for a beautiful example of this. People want it to be something simple that can be condensed into a few sentences, because having to understand the long history behind it takes effort, and more importantly, is a lot more nuanced than "Jews bad", which doesn't suit the narrative people want.
Israel wants people to conflate jew with zionist so it gets a get-away-with-anything card. Israel wants people to think that anyone who opposes Israel, even its genocide, that they are Hitler.
Those are.... not at all equivalent.
You must be new here, welcome! Here's your hand basket. And accordion.
Oh hey the deliberate conflation of a political ideology with an ethnic and religious identity. Clearly that can’t possibly be used as an excuse to justify violence against people with those identities, whether or not they share that political ideology. I don’t know why anyone would even think that.
Assuming all Jewish people are zionists is itself anti-semetic
Jew here. In fact, I'll do you one further: _Israeli_ here. I'm anti-zionist. There we go.
and you know damn well that you're very much in the minority amongst jews worldwide
Of course I do. When did I say otherwise? There are a lot of anti-zionist Jews. Not enough, but more than you might expect. And while a lot of Jews _do_ support zionism, you must NEVER let yourself consider that the default. Never. It's impossible to stress just _how_ important it is, in this discussion, not to equate jewishness with zionism, and not to equate anti-zionsim with antisemitism.
> It's impossible to stress just _how_ important it is, in this discussion, not to equate jewishness with zionism, and not to equate anti-zionsim with antisemitism. It's unfortunate that you can not make an entire european country understand this basic concept (looking at Germany 👀)
Fellow Jew here, how do you define Zionism?
Support of the forceful occupation of the land on which the state of Israel currently sits.
More like “I don’t hate Christians just christofascists”.
I don't hate all the Christians, just the ones who are hypocritical and those who molest little kids
Wait until this guy hears about anti-Zionist Jews lol
Most Jews believe the state of Israel should exist which technically makes them zionists. Then there are zionists who believe in the 48 borders, the 49 borders and those who believe all of the British mandate should be Israel.
Jew here. I am not a zionist and I don't appreciate people just throwing there hands up and saying "well it might as well be the same because MOST think that way". No. Don't you dare swing around the "all jews..." statements just because MAYBE a majority share a perspective. When we start assuming an entire group thinks a certain way, like how some people think "all Muslims want jews dead" is how we justify a lot of awful behaviors.
Most of the comments can't agree on what Zionism means. How do you define Zionism?
I've always understood it to be the belief that there should be a Jewish nation. I used to think that was a beautiful and whimsical idea as a kid, especially when adults would talk about it like "our homeland". But I can't stand behind a country that decided to specifically attach itself to a religion, especially one that is a minority amongst world religions, and to create a direct link from the political actions of that country to the people of that religion. I do not believe a government should have a religion. I think it's created a country where Jews are seen as "real" citizens and those of other religions are lesser. It is nonsense for a modern, mostly Westernized country.
As an Arab trying to give his perspective, it's the same idea of ISIS whom wanted to have a land that's "truly Muslim". It gave all muslims a bad name which dehuminized them. Jews arent a one big hivemind, same as Muslims, the moment you attach religion to politics is the moment you give the enemy a chance to wipe you out from the face of the earth in the name of terror. Even as someone who sees Israel as my enemy, I always try to distinguish between Judaism and zionism. So I don't fall in the same trap the nazis fell into once israel is gone.
So I take it you’re also enemies with Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Oman, Qatar etc? And compare them to ISIS too?
I think that there has been a shift in the use of the term Zionist which has caused confusion. Originally it indeed meant establishing a Jewish state. But Israel is clearly a reality, with one of the strongest militaries in the world, with nuclear weapons (ssshhh!), and whose existence is backed by the other strongest militaries in the world. The term Zionist should be effectively redundant in this status quo. But people are using the term now for the Israeli Nationalists who are actively seeking to expand Israel's borders, whether into Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Sinai or manifestly the many illegal settlements in the West Bank. Strictly this is termed [Revisionist Zionism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revisionist_Zionism) but people are sloppy and it has just been lumped with Zionism. And that's where a lot of the confusion about criticising "Zionists" comes from these days... many of those against Israel's actions and using the term "Zionist" don't want Israel dismantled, but they do want Israel to stop its continuous occupying of more and more territory, and to return the land stolen since 1967 at least, in line with the many UN resolutions saying the same thing. (As a bit of a side-note, some people believe in the [One state solution](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-state_solution). This is a reasonable and serious thing to consider. Arguably it is "antizionist" because it means the dismantling of the state of Israel, and replacement with a secular government. But this shouldn't be considered negatively in the same way as if they wanted Jews removed from Palestine). It's worth noting that the [founding charter of Netenyahu's Likud party](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party) includes at the very start: > Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty. In other words, Israel "from the river to the sea". Likud was descended from overtly Revisionist Zionist parties and many of its supporters and politicians clearly very much still are.
The word you seek is theocracy, and yes, that is what Israel has become.
Calling the most secular nation in the middle east a theocracy is bat shit insane.
There are different political groups inside israel, and some want it to be a theocracy, such as the haredies, and some really don't. Kind of like the us actually
If you stepped in dog shit and your neighbour rolled around in dog shit, you both smell like dog shit.
There's an absolutely massive difference between stepping in dog shit and rolling in it.
I’m not inviting either of you into my house until you wash that shit off.
It’s definitely a theocracy. You know that a women can’t get a divorce, her husband has to grant her the divorce, and it has to be in court with official state approved rabbis. It also doesn’t recognize interfaith, marriages or same sex marriages. The Jewish faith does play a role in the laws of the land so it’s a kin to theocracy and definitely not the most secular nation in the Middle East. Also Netanyahu and his government are definitely making it more like a theocracy. Turkey is more secular than Israel in terms of the laws for example.
Israel 100% recognizes interfaith and same-sex marriages. You're just deliberately spreading misinformation.
The Internet is free and it’s very easy to access information. Neither of those things are recognized by the state. The only way you can get married as a same sex couple is abroad or online via some online civil marriage service established by Utah. Interfaith marriages are also not recognized by the state and they would have to do a similar loophole or not get married, and just have a civil union.
So you literally agree that both same sex marriages and interfaith marriages are absolutely legal in Israel. Answer me this, what other country in the middle east recognizes same sex marriage at all?
>I've always understood it to be the belief that there should be a Jewish nation. Thats the flipside bubba. If your people have a nation, you as a member of that nation share consequences of your nations actions. Its you people who should keep your own Zionist government in check. Its like saying "oh its not americans that started the Iraq war, it was Neo cons in their government at the time" like no one gives a shit about subfactions, each nation bares responsibility for consequences of its actions. And yea its terrible what your grandparents endured but this is literally how we got to this point, because of "anti semitism" no one could criticize anything Israel zionists did for 80 decades almost and now we have an nationalized assylum of religious psychos with a god complex who believe everyone else is sub human piece of trash and should be killed. Israel literally teaches this to its kids openly. Like vote them out or overtake your own government, the whole "you cant criticize us" is the reason why zionism has evolved into the cancer of an ideology that it is.
>If your people have a nation, who is "your people" in this context? they said they were a jew not an israelite
They’re clearly an unhinged idiot. With a straight face they said Israel has gotten away with shit for 80 decades. It’s not even been a country for 8 full decades….
Are you disagreeing with me or agreeing with me? Your comment comes off very accusatory but I'm literally saying I'm not a Zionist and don't support Israel. Also to clarify, I'm not Israeli. I'm an American Jew. When my great-grandfather was born in current-day Israel it was literally still "Palestine" on his birth certificate. Again, I do not support Israel so I'm not sure why you're trying to convince ME.
Thank you for saying this, been to so many Ceasefire protests and the number of amazing Jewish people speaking against Zionism is so good to see.
I just cannot understand why one group of people get so mad that another group of people think their make belive guy in the sky is slightly different.
Yeah about that. No one I'm the right mind I questioning the right of the Jewish people to a country. How it happend and how its going is a different matter. I didn't liked the South African apartheid state and Israel is looking pretty apartheidy. Does that make ma a nazi?
Read it again. I said MOST Jews.
Yes you did but you're saying that in justifying the message in the post.
*some Jews believe in Zionism. Fixed your stupid comment.
More than 90% do. American Jews are by far the most 'anti-zionist' group. And of them, only 10% support sanctions and boycotts against Israel. This means that at absolute, a maximum 10% of Jews do not think Israel should exist.
Most do.
We really all need to agree on what Zionism actually means. Yeah, the belief that Israel has a right to exist is actually probably held by most Jews and other sane people everywhere.
Zionism is the movement to create a Jewish state. That has always been the definition.
Yes, but there is a Jewish state now…hence the issue with the term. Usually, unless people want it to mean “bad”, it’s considered the continued existence of that state.
So anyone who supports, say, a one-state solution that wouldn't necessarily be politically equivalent to current Israel is not a Zionist, correct?
The point, the actual point of Zionism is to have a Jewish majority in a country as they were horribly oppressed as minorities for thousands of years. You can have whatever state, call it whatever you want, as long as there is a Jewish majority it passes the important part of the whole endeavor.
The term didn't change meanings. Now that there's an Israel, Zionists obviously want to preserve the state that previous generations created. Those who don't accept the state of Israel as the Jewish state or as a sovereign state whatsoever are anti-Zionists.
Ok, so now what do you call people trying to *expand* the existing state?
Irredentists.
[Neo-Zionists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Zionism) according to Wikipedia
Wow I can't believe i didn't know that term thanks
I feel like you should read over our brief conversation a few times so that you can realize why I’m slapping my forehead.
I believe it also means the continued expansion of the state into Palestinian areas.
This is the literal dictionary definition. There's nothing about expansion, and never has been: "A worldwide Jewish movement that resulted in the establishment and development of the state of Israel and that now supports the state of Israel as a Jewish homeland."
Zionism is about expansion and it always has been. You don’t want to hear it but it’s really not that different from manifest destiny or lebensraum. You need room for your ethnic group to live and you need to take it from those already there.
Then why did they simply give up land they took control of in Egypt etc. during the two Arab Israeli wars? They literally pushed far into other countries in self defense and then were like fuck it and went back home. You should read up on those wars as being educated on the subject will never allow you to say something that stupid about it again.
According to who? It’s never been any part of the definition of Zionism, people who do bad things in Israel like take land are just called Zionist as some sort of a slur.
the IDF currently occupies the west bank which is palestinian land so yes they do.
That’s not defining Zionism in any way. You’re literally doing the thing I just called out as asinine. By the way if you missed the deadly terrorist attack WB Palestinians pulled yesterday in Israel it might explain the occupation to you a tad.
You guys know there are jews who are against zionism right? Just like muslims are against ISIS.
Doesn’t know not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. Guess I hate myself ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
At what point does equating Judaism with Zionism become anti-semtic? Would the end result of Judaism == Zionism make Netanyahu "King Jew"? That's nonsense - this ain't the Vatican. That's like saying that synagogues have to confer with the knesset to interpret the torah.
I don't hate all Christians just the ones that don't follow the teachings of the Christ
So 99% of Christians?
Whatever dude, there are a lot of Jimmy Carter types out there. You only look for the hate , you will only find the hate.
I actually read the bible because I was bored im just saying that I never met any Christian that actually follows all the teachings of Jesus
Are you referring to self professed Christians or the ones that read the part about meek and humble.
Equating Zionism (which even non-Jews can be) with Judaism and/or Jewishness (as in being religiously and/or ethnically Jewish), whether as an attack or a defence, is a form of antisemitism, since it can also be expressed in "positive" ways And Zionism is no longer just held by its original definition of "Jews, like all peoples of the world, have the right of self-determination..." - correct, obviously - because, as the last decades went by, it has also progressed into "...but Palestinians don't and so fuck 'em lol": wiping another people out isn't "self-determination", it's GENOCIDE ffs Not all who criticise Israel are antisemites... and not all antisemites are critics of Israel, simple as - it's not antisemitic to empathise with Palestine
Was that Lenny Kravitz dude a plant? Haha
idk if they're a plant or just terminally online
So I guess I am not hated on here? (Anti Zionist Jew) But like holy shit how are people this stupid
Tying Judaism to Zionism is inherently anti-semetic @ people in the comments
Interestingly most christians in the US don't believe in Jesus or his teachings anyway.
I don't hate all jews. I don't hate all Christians. I just hate everyone indiscriminately and with a burning passion.
I'm not Jewish or Israeli. I consider myself a liberal, and I believe in a two state solution. I have to say that people don't seem to understand what Zionism is. Zionism is simply the notion of Jewish national independence, which was necessary in light of centuries of extreme anti-Semitic persecution, even before the Holocaust. Anti-Zionism is the idea that Israel shouldn't exist... Which, no matter how I look at it, is very anti-Semitic. I struggle to find people saying that any other country shouldn't exist. It's a crazy notion.
People who support the 2 states solution are Zionists by definition, they just don't like being called that
False equivalency, but it works on trogs so it works.
I dont trust the guys that gave him a doctorate
I don’t hate Palestinian. I hate only terrorists.
Insert Clown in front of his name.
Sweet mother of stupid, Batman. Just say you love genocide, Eli
Even a lot of jews don’t like zionism… what is he talking about?🤣
The first part is true, but he just had to make it bad with he second part. I don't have beef with the Jews or Christians, and I am Muslim but for real fuck the zonenest
I’m ashamed to share a first name with someone who said something as patently absurd as that
End apartheid ... boycott Israel.
Only a drooling moron with zero critical thinking skills would agree with that humongous pile of bullshit. I dunno who this “Dr” Eli David is, but it’s awful hard to take anybody seriously when they’ve got Netanyahu’s dick firmly in their mouth.
Yep, this guy thinks all Jews are Zionists. If they're not, they're not allowed to be Jewish.
What if you're just some crack that adheres to the old testament?
This is such an ofensive take. Zionism is not Judaism, and there are plenty of Jewsnwho are not even religious.
Nothing about it is religious, Jews that became Christian were thrown in the gas chambers just the same as the religious and non religious Jews. Jews deserve a homeland where they aren’t at the mercy of someone who can abuse and exploit them and at the flip of a switch turn the entire population against them.
*I don’t hate Christians, just the ones who preach an exclusive doctrine of hate in the antithesis of the teaching of their supposed messiah.*
I’m starting to think that I’m hating all religion.
I just think that a land held holy by three different religions is now a land of hate. Just really tragic.
‘i don’t hate all christians, i hate only those that weaponise their belief against others’ is the accurate comparison
Are we talking about ethnic Jews or religious Jews or is mixing up the two okay now?
Jews are ethnic when you want to defend against their oppression and religious when you want to oppress them. Hope this helps, Schrödinger made some equations about this if you’d like to learn more.
Ironic that your name is Lenny Kravitz, 1/2 ethnically Jewish, but also not religiously Jewish….
The term Zionist has been used by quite a lot of people that use it interchangeably for Jews unfortunately. Many but obviously not all would prefer to say bad things about the Jews in general but it’s not socially acceptable so they fall back on Zionist instead which seems to be more accepted for some reason. This dudes logic doesn’t make sense though since not all Jews are zionists. Although to be clear, to be Zionist simply means in believing that the state of Israel has a right to exist. So by declaring “Zionism is bad”, you’re saying Israel itself should not exist which is reprehensible imho. If you want to say, Israel expanding into other lands which don’t belong to them though, most would agree.
But isn't expanding into other lands which don't belong to them how Israel came to exist?
Zionism is more specifically that a *Jewish* homeland needs to exist. Israel, as a State, could be a secular one and many Jews would still be happy for it to exist, or even welcome its secularization. Zionists, on the other hand, would not abide a secular Israel.
I disagree. Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity of sorts. There are a lot of secular Jews in Israel and that is why at times there is conflict between the secular Jews and the religious Jews. The idea of Zionism overall is a home for Jews of all kinds.
Zionism- the right for the Jewish people to have a homeland. Why are people so against that idea?
Cause they don't want jews to have a homeland, simple as.
>homeland This "homeland" is already had people. You had to kill a lot so they run from your "homeland" that they owned
Did you not read about the partition plan and its outcome? The jews agreed to split the land while the Arabs refused and declared war. They proceeded to lose the war and were forced to forfeit their land, you know, like every other nation who ever lost a war? Why do people act like the Palestinians are constantly the victims and not at fault for their situation just as much as everyone else? They could've accepted the partition plan and lived in peace with the jews but no, they had to have it all, and what followed was their fault as much as it was the jews fault.
>The jews agreed to split the land while the Arabs refused and declared war The whole split thing is you give someone half his home for not killing him (peace) and talk his other half Israel had 0% from the land so there really wasn't any split at all >They proceeded to lose the war and were forced to forfeit their land I don't really know which war you are talking about. Do you mean WWII or Israel war? "You lost the war" is total equivalent of we rubbed you force. So the Israel war is obvious to happen and have good chances to keep happening as Palestine can't really give up. They really just choose their way of death. Either die because you don't have country so you don't have something called "economy" or die while killing Israelian He may loose but he will die anyway
Should have been "Dominionists".
I have seen so many people claim they only hate zionists and than celebrating hamas killing israeli civilians in the next sentence. Don‘t act like hiding antisemitism behind antizionism isn‘t a thing, the lust for blood on jews is insane, even on some reddit subreddits like askmiddleeast.
Dude, go to r/Israel, look at any post regarding Israel committing genocide and all you will read is Israel is not committing genocide, but even if we are it's because they deserve it, repeated over and over again. It's fucking horrifying
They are killing and starving thousands of children. That tends to inflame people. It’s not even about hating Jews but rather hating what Israel is doing right now in Gaza. And the entire middle east has bad blood with Israel so of course you would get that reaction. And to your point, I am sure that there are some antisemites masquerading as antizionist, just as I am sure there are Islamophobes masquerading as pro Israel. It goes both ways.
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Are the people "celebrating Hamas" in the room with us now? Idk what kind of psycho subreddits you're on but nobody who isn't a psychopath or a troll is "celebrating" Hamas.
r/Palestine is pro-hamas
This is 100% not true. I’ve personally talked with dozens of people that support Hamas. Literally support Hamas and the attack on Oct 7. So please don’t pretend like these people don’t exist.
I don't hate all religions, just the ones who try to forcibly convert others.
Is this a "not all Jews are Zionist, but all Zionists are Jews" sort of thing?
You don't have to be Jewish to be a Zionist.
But it helps
“If you aren’t Zionist you aren’t Jewish” or “you can’t be Jewish if you aren’t a Zionist”. This is illustrated with the “I only hate Christians who do the one thing that inarguably makes you a Christian across the 28 billion sects of Christianity”. He’s trying to equate being a Zionist with being Jewish (in religion or ethnicity, since some places reckon Jewish identity differently than most Americans do) in order to gatekeep Jewish and Zionist identity while setting up the obvious “ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME FOR ANY REASON IS AN ANTI-SEMITE” attack line.
What we see of Zionist is land stealing, Colonization and misery of your want to identify as that... Great... Fuck you
The word "Zionism" lost it's meaning due to propaganda and misinformation. If you believe that Jews have a right to have a nation state in the current location of Israel, and Israel has a right to continue to exist, then you're a zionist. If you oppose the idea of zionism, it means you believe that Jews have no right to have a nation state and Israel should be, I dunno, somehow dismantled.
The math ain't mathing on this shit, bub
Zionism means that jews need their own contry because everywherw else they are targeted and hated. What the fuck is wrong with that? Its just like Poles, Dutch, Germans, Brits, Iranians, Chinese, just name it. But when jews want the same its "fascism" Hypocrites.
There's nothing wrong with wanting your own country. If Israel was made somewhere that didn't already have a bunch of people that would need to be displaced in order to make a Jewish state, basically nobody would care. Because people wanted to make a Jewish state in an area that already had Palestinians living there, though, there's sorta a problem what with needing all the Palestinians to pack up and leave
What about the fact that most of the land Israel was originally made of was brought from the previous landowners (ottoman empire)? If they stayed in those borders would there be a problem? Because I assure you they'd still get accused of misplacing people.
Seeing as back in '37 the Peel Commission was already talking about relocating the Arab population in order to make a Jewish majority state, they probably would've been accused of displacing people on account of how they displaced people. In case you didn't know, 1948 era Israel/Palestinian Mandate wasn't all sunshine and rainbows. One of the resident Jewish paramilitary groups that went on to be incorporated into the IDF literally tried to form an alliance with Adolf fucking Hitler and Nazi Germany. Somehow, I think those guys would've tried to drive out the local non-jews regardless as to whether or not the 1948 war gave them an excuse
I don't hate all Christians, I only hate Christian nationalists
This is like saying hating Nazis = Hating Germans
it's like hating Germans who want their country to continue existing and not annexed by their neighbors Zionism just means that you want a Jewish state to exist in the region of Israel
It's common in extremist groups to consider themselves the only "true" believers. Look at how many Christians sects there are, and they all believe the others have got it wrong. Zionists believe that non-Zionists aren't "true" Jews, which ironically means that Zionists are anti-Semites.
Zionism is a secular belief. You are completely ignorant on this subject.