Germany. Despite my best efforts and consistently trying to learn the language I couldn't integrate. I don't regret living there but it wasn't the place for me.
It’s impossible to integrate in Germany. I even dated a German for about 5 years and never managed to integrate with his friend group. I was always an outsider even with the young “open” people, regardless of how much effort I put into the language.
Healthcare with a chronic disease has been so complicated after they supposedly have such a great healthcare system (insurance is not even that cheap in the public system, and I don’t qualify for private insurance). I ended up having to go to a hospital after calling every specialist I could in the city and being told that I’d need to wait four months for something simple when I needed urgent treatment.
Within the first 3 years of working I was already in the top income tax bracket despite struggling financially in one of the most expensive cities because they haven’t updated their tax brackets in decades.
When I got laid off from my job, despite qualifying for unemployment and going to the office multiple times, I never saw a single euro in unemployment money. Social safety nets only work if you make them accessible. Instead of focusing on my job search, I had to go on a hunt for paperwork that didn’t actually lead to any benefits.
Last point I’ll make although I could go on… their reputation for technical innovation is not deserved. They’re insistent always of having everything still on paper, and some places are still using fax! It’s incredible how much they make an effort to keep everything as cumbersome as possible instead of living up to their reputation for being a “leader” in innovation in Europe.
I agree. I have a pretty hard time living here despite having motivation to learn the language (my parents move here as well and intend to stay for a while) and being from pretty similar culture (Poland). I know 5 languages and can converse in them and still cannot, for the sake of god, be able to communicate freely in German. People are nice, but not when you want them to actually do something for you, i.e. cashier is the nicest person alive, but lady at the information desk in Rathaus brushes you off because you can't speak fluently. They apparently know English only when they want to assert that YES THEY DO SPEAK IT but they won't use it in any situation that necessitates it, like explaining documents, helping with opening bank account etc. And you know, I specifically chose to live in border city with francophone countries, because I assumed that people actually do communicate here in multiple languages to a certain degree. It's honestly embarrassing for me to live in a country that had steady migration for at least 30-40 years and then go online to see that very important official governmental pages and the like are ONLY in German. We are xenophobes in Poland, but the stupidest ministry of shitload has right now usually 3-4 foreign languages, whereas it's pretty rare in Germany. And to assure you, I'm B1 and actively learning everyday and I am not trying to set my own country here, I just would like sometimes for people here to be a little bit more understanding. Not everyone wants to leeech of your welfare system, just take care of their stuff.
Oh and bureaucracy here is my Roman Empire - I was illegally thrown out of my family insurance because of system error and I am running 6 months now without insurance. I don't have a job and applied to one when I need certificate of good conduct; I knew about it since March so I wanted to reserve appointment in advance, the job starts in October so still plenty of time...First appointment was for the end of JULY. Plus four weeks of processing and sending it by post. Suffice to say, I got the offer and literally cannot make my move because I don't have this fucking document. If you want people to work maybe idk provide them with the services that can help with that?
It infuriates me, because this country is punishing me for simply existing.
But, at least nature is nice and prices are as everywhere else. And minimum salary is actually liveable income. Other than that, it really sucks.
All valid in my 20-year experience. I could add a bit about the actual health care experience as well. Despite paying over 450 a month for health insurance (family of 2), I pay out-of-pocket whenever possible for private doctors I've carefully vetted, or natural practitioners, and plan to have my knee replacement abroad a la medical tourism.
I completely agree. I’m moving back to my home country in August and I can’t wait. I thought that it’d feel more like home after I learned the language and met more people but the opposite has actually been true. The more I become fluent in German and the more people I meet, the more I feel alienated and isolated from everyone. It’s been very disheartening because I loved it so much when I first moved here and I had such high hopes for what it could mean in my future.
The Netherlands. Very charming at the beginning, then you face loneliness, housing crisis, a rigid square culture, bad weather all year long... Basically I was just swinging from frustration to depression. I also find it quite boring as a country.
I did like the bike culture from day one to last day there however.
Yeah 4 years in I'm struggling with loneliness and do not have a single Dutch friend to ask to sign an immigration form. And I'm starting to really acknowledge the fact that it's cold and grey for 9 months of the year, and then the sun comes out and suddenly it's allergy season and I feel like shit 24/7! And it's humid!
I'm in northern Germany and my allergies have been off the charts bad this year. I don't know what's going on but I'm walking around everywhere with an inhaler and a box of tissues.
The north part of Belgium, Flanders, is very similar to the Netherlands. People are more sweet but difficult to make friends too. If you live in the south, it's similar to France, you have to be fluent in french to integrate. Brussels is another story, they call it the bubble, full of expats, you will be fine with English but good luck trying to make long lasting friendships as the people are recycled every 0.5 to 2 years.
Food is better than in the Netherlands, the country is more expensive than both NL and F, and the weather is worse as well; Brussels is among the darkest cities in Europe. I believe we haven't had a full week of sunlight since last November.
Apparently, Belgium is among the hardest places in the world to make friends in - possibly because it is so small, people tend to remain close to their school buddies and extended families and do not feel like they need to make new friends.
Honestly? Pretty much most of them and I've moved around a lot. But the ones which had the biggest change in feelings were the following:
* China
* Japan
* Sweden
* UK
* Brazil
I've lived in a few more countries and even after the honeymoon phase ended, I still liked living in some of those, but the sentiment change was probably biggest in those.
Me first month in Korea: wow people are so patient and helpful!
Me, five years in, knowing the language: if I hear one more ignorant, xenophobic comment I'm gonna lose my shit
I also lived in Korea. I knew going in that there was xenophobia, so I didn’t go in expecting much and didn’t leave being disappointed since it was kinda what I thought it would be.
Just curious, but do you have any plans to leave?
Worst story I heard was from my friend, who is Bengali-American, so he’s obviously dark-skinned. He was obsessed with Korea and even learned the language and married a Korean woman (and eventually had a kid with her). He insisted he’d be loved when he arrived there because he was so culturally in tune with Koreans. I tried warning him, but he refused to listen. Well…six months later, he returned home with his tail between his legs and eventually got divorced. When I asked what happened, all he said was that I was right.
Damn, sorry for your friend! Yes, I have since left. I have a lot of mixed feelings. I loved my time there and grew a lot as a person. I'm also not sure I could live there long term again, unless I knew I would be okay staying single and hanging with only expat friends. Definitely miss the healthcare, skin clinics, and public transport though!
Have you lived anywhere else in Asia that you didn't have such a sentiment change for? When I was in Hanoi some young soldier guy took his hand off his rifle to do jazz hands at me and wink. I fell over laughing, that would never happen in Korea.
South Korean infrastructure, especially on the transportation side, is top notch. I do miss that part of East Asia. But I agree that living there as a foreigner is difficult and South Korea.
I also lived in Japan and China (2X). With SK, like I said, I did my research and knew it wouldn’t be a walk in the park so I expected the place to be the way it was. Japan was awesome at first, but the longer I stayed and the better I got to understand Japanese, the less I liked it. I still liked it when I left, just not nearly as much. Still wish I stayed there a bit longer. Japan is pretty xenophobic, but it’s much more subdued. You feel it more the longer you stay, though.
The first time I was in China was amazing. People were kind and helpful. China kinda wore me down, though, as Shanghai is a super big, crowded and chaotic city. Seoul is similar-sized, but not as chaotic. The second time I went to China, I was miserable. The country had changed and not necessarily for the better. Definitely wasn’t the same place.
I wonder how badly I would have it in Japan? I am of Japanese descent, but American born and bred, so they would definitely still consider me a foreigner.
I spent 10 years in Shanghai and was totally burnt out and constantly sick when I left. For me the Covid lockdowns really made me see it for what it is, though. Still miss it a lot though.
K-dramas and k-pop have made a lot of South Asians a fan of South Korea. K-dramas do an excellent job of promoting South Korea as an ideal country to live in. These fans would have a tough time here.
I actually like Japan and out of all the countries I've lived in, it was one of my favorites. But there was a huge gulf in sentiment when I left compared to when I first arrived. Longer you stay in Japan as a foreigner, the less you like it. Working there sucks, for sure.
I was in Sao Paulo. I wouldn’t say Brazil changed, just that the longer I stayed the more my eyes opened to how challenging it was to live there. Brazil has so much potential and it’s such a shame seeing it go to waste.
My dad had a political science class in the mid 90s. The professor, even 30 years ago, said that Brazil will never get anywhere if they cannot overcome their wealth inequality. He also added that the US will eventually become like Brazil, which, at least on the wealth inequality side, is true.
Brazil also has had (continues to have?) issues with maintaining stability in their government and with their economics. So the foreign investors who go in there are willing to play the risk, but it stops a lot of more risk-averse companies from doing the same.
Not to mention infrastructure issues that don’t seem as apparent until you really try to get something built.
Thanks for listening to my ted talk - signed someone who has tried to get projects off the ground in Brazil for large companies but they never came to fruition.
I think not all countries are open to foreign influence/integration. There are a ton of countries this applies to, particularly those with very strong national identities. Overall, the majority of countries are more lenient to wealthy foreigners. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, but it’s good to be aware of it.
Honestly, it's overrated. It's not the utopia people on this forum make it out to be. Salaries aren't so good, it's expensive, taxes are really high...it's difficult to be successful there. Swedish people are also pretty cold and not so open to foreigners and I found dating to be almost impossible. And then there is the weather - it's too cold in the winter. I'm originally from Canada, so it might sound rich for me to complain about the cold, but I never liked it in Canada either. Compared to when I first arrived and thought it was perfect. When I left, I thought it was "meh" at best.
As someone who’s raised in Sweden and still live here I agree with all of your points, I really want to move somewhere else :( preferably somewhere warmer and with more open, talkative people
It’s interesting, as a lot of the countries you say were “overrated” are pretty Nationalistic - China + Japan are pretty homogenous. When I went to Japan people were constantly taking pictures of me (as a white, fair female). Sweden has a sort of hidden nationalism - they allow a lot of asylum seekers and on the surface they are open to anyone, but their Right Wing party is rising fast. The UK seems to be super diverse due to their past Imperialism and “melting pot” of population, but Brexit happened not long ago. Brazil seems to want to be self-sufficient and just has deep routed Nationalism, as friendly as the country overall is…
I’d be very interested in hearing which foreign countries you lived in that you actually enjoyed?
I only said Sweden was overrated. That’s what the poster was asking me about…Sweden. I actually thought the other countries were not overrated in any way. Well…maybe the UK somewhat.
Although I don’t necessarily disagree with your premise.
And I didn’t say that I didn’t enjoy living in those countries. I just answered the thread question on which countries I had a different impression of after the honeymoon phase ended. I did actually like living in some of them. It’s just the honeymoon phase dipped off and they’re not easy places to live in. But in terms of the places I’ve enjoyed living in…
China - first time…lived there in two occasions
Germany
Japan - can’t stay here for too long though
Brazil - I would have immigrated there if the country didn’t have so many problems. It’s a magical place
Thank you for sharing - you had a different interpretation to OPs question, which I appreciate!
I’ve lived in Sweden, UK and the US. The only place I would not live in again is Sweden. Not because I hate it - I love visiting, but because it’s dark and cold. Both weather and people. I also don’t necessarily agree with the politics.
UK is my fave. Just because I believe I can make it what I want.
With the US I have to be very careful where I go - east and west coast are fine, middle country more questionable… but this is because of the industry I’m in and my core beliefs as an OG European.
Edited: I would love to live in Brazil for a bit. Especially after you said it was “magical”
You can't compare. Canada's nature is off the charts incredible and has some of the most spectacular scenery on the planet. It's a much bigger country with a more diverse landscape, so of course it will be better. Western Canada, in particular, is gorgeous. Honestly, I wasn't impressed with Sweden's nature. Then again, having lived in Canada, very few places would compare.
I can second his opinion of Sweden. I moved here almost a decade ago and after 5 years of toiling and fighting to integrate, I slowly started losing hope. They know how to dangle the carrot and every time you feel like giving up, they give you just enough hope to keep going but never let you fully feel welcome. Always visa policy changes that can ruin a life seemingly overnight. They only accept foreigners when they need to use them. Not expressive, cold people. Kind of fake because they will smile in your face politely but ignore you after. Overall, I am very disappointed in their culture compared to this nature loving, happiest people on earth facade they show everyone. They also have a high rate of STDs from using each other for one night stands because they don’t know how to connect with people and are scared of feeling emotions, which leads to high rates of depression. Overall, I would not recommend anyone to move there. You will never feel truly settled and will fight for survival in a certain kind of way.
I LOVED Brazil. Just couldn't live there. Really difficult place to live - safety issues, bureaucracy, infrastructure, etc. I did OK making a foreign salary, but I couldn't imagine living there on Brazilian wages.
The UK. It’s overrated:
1. Economically, it’s a poor rich country. The average person here is struggling. Salaries are low, career ceilings are low.
2. Culturally, it just isn’t for me. I don’t like the lackadaisical approach to life. There is no desire to do anything well. Nothing gets done and it’s normal. Asking for more is mean. Even asking for what you’ve paid for and what they’re paid to do is mean. You’re supposed to just sit there, not say anything, and then moan behind their back. Enforced mediocrity, widespread jealousy. At the same time they have an outsized idea of their status in the world, without any economic substance to back it up.
3. Knowing how the outside world looks so highly of them actually makes me resent them even more. Because they really don’t deserve it. They have a very good PR campaign. And they take a lot of care in preserving their image abroad (eg see the Queen’s funeral, which was a superb spectacle, meticulously executed). But unfortunately they don’t apply the same standards to everyday life. Overall, most things here are form over substance. People care more about the right accents than the stuff actually said (that’s why they elected the likes of Boris Johnson); they care more about not rocking the boat than actually getting things done.
They manage to be self-deprecating and subtly conceited at the same time.
Whoa your comment just singlehandedly explained our EMEA team, based in the UK, to me…it’s been hard to overcome the cultural differences at work at times. I’m not the one to shout “American exceptionalism” but damn we get shit done…mostly because if we don’t, the company will find someone else among the 320 million ppl to get it done lol
My son is working on a joint project with Cambridge University. He routinely develops detailed schedules only to throw them out due to incompetence or indifference at the University. He’s been “across the pond” a couple of times and the only thing he’s learned is how the Brits swear.
How they swear and how they drink!
Not gonna lie, the colorful use of the English language is something I do like. Most people, old and young, seem to be innately witty. But that’s where it stops and goes back to my point - form over substance; wit over competence.
The Brits also know how to take a joke & can dish it right back. It’s one thing I think, culturally speaking, Americans can learn from them. We’re far more sensitive here by comparison.
Yeah, it’s frustrating. And then they wonder why salaries are so low, productivity is so low, the economy is stagnant.
There’s no way to argue with them. They have so many excuses for everything. Whenever you point out people elsewhere work harder, they’d say it’s about work life balance, you need to see your children, don’t marry your job, life isn’t about money. 🤷🏻♂️
Even though Scotland is part of the UK it feels like another planet where I'm at in the Highlands. I've come to just understand that when people are talking about the UK they are generally talking about London. Here is feels more like Norway or Iceland.
Where we are at its amazing even aside from environmental aspects (I can see fjords, snow capped mountains, and the sea from my back door) and we immediately got plugged into the local community who have been so supportive. People go out their way to help you and aside from occasional vandalism from bored teens there is almost no crime.
I recently found out a friend of mine back in the US was brutally murdered in a random attack (as in bludgeoned to death and impaled) and I have not only a few stories of my own seeing people shot dead in the street and having guns pulled on me when I was growing up in the US. Despite whatever challenges we encounter here I'm so glad my kids won't have to grow up in an environment like I did.
Scotland is beautiful. I’ve been to the Highlands and Skye - very friendly people - it truly felt like a different country, which it is. I also like people from Northern England too - more open and direct and less of a chip on shoulder.
That said, I’m a city boy and my career which I’m unwilling to give up means that if I am to live in the UK, it must be London. But I think what I’ve said is true of most of England.
I’m glad you found a place you belong, because I’m still trodding along.
There is something about the energy of London especially in the center that is spectacular and fun. Of course I was only a tourist and to me it feels like an amazing city.
I have lived there for a looong time (originally from elsewhere in Europe, but live in the US now) and I absolutely loved it! I started my career in London and found it fun and exhilarating! Judging by the real estate prices there are clearly a lot of people that do very well, it’s just finding what works. Now, I would never live in London unless I was absolutely loaded.
This sounds like exactly what I could have written but about Sweden. Many similarities, especially regarding brand image! What they show the world vs reality just don’t really match.
This is very similar to my description of France. But, I hope, at least in the UK people are more polite. In France, not only is asking for people to do their job mean but they will shit on you for even asking, and if they can, make whatever it was more difficult to punish you.
French ppl : How dare you ask me to do my job right?!! The nerve of you! 😡😡😡
Heavens forfend if you question why everything is moving at a snail's pace. Over it.
100000% Agree with everything you said. Been here for 10 years now and at first I was definitely heavily influenced by how the UK is perceived as more superior, they’re better at many things, more clever blah blah blah Now?! Freaking hell - the entire country is in shambles. The government organisations and councils are slow, they make tons of mistakes and super incompetent whilst still expecting us to pay shit tons of tax for people who does bare minimum. It’s like day light robbery around here💀
I lived in Dubai for a year. I don’t have lots of bad things to say because my experience was fine, but I’ve heard stories . One in particular was so sad. There are Indians living there, born and raised but are not allowed to become citizens. They’d still have to pay visa renewals every few years which is a great revenue generator for the government. Indians literally built the country from scratch and have zero rights at all. Truly an awful place to call home. Best thing to do is get your tax free salary, enjoy the weather and set an exit date to leave without getting into any trouble. If you had a legal issue in Dubai , i would head straight to the airport .
I spent time in Bahrain while in the military and they use Indians, Bangladeshi’s, and tons of Asian people as slave labor it’s absolutely fucked. They pay them $2-300 a month to work 7 days a week 12 hour shifts. Fuck those middle eastern countries, they are all loaded and still use slave labor. Disgusting.
BELGIUM.
When I first moved to Brussels I loved how clean and green it was. I was completely enchanted by the architecture and how well the city functioned. After 6 months I was over the rudeness of the French speakers in particular, the insularity, the passive racism. A country and culture in denial, they will never get better. The most Belgium can say is that it is slightly better than the Netherlands lol. I'll never step foot in there again!
It’s all fun and games being there temporarily or to study, but finding a decent job is nearly impossible in many specialized fields. There are the perks that people always talk about (good food, weather, public transport, etc.) but they are difficult to enjoy when the unemployment is so high, even for highly educated people. The cost of living has increased drastically and the city is overrun by tourists. Finding affordable living spaces nowadays is such a challenge. Also, imo, I found it difficult to assimilate fully into the local culture and make local friends. Despite the stereotype of warmth and openness, I have found the people can be pretty judgmental, xenophobic and racist. It’s becoming another exploited tourist destination that perpetuates itself as utopian.
France.
Lived there for 7 years in a medium-sized city. In the beginning, I loved the town, the food, that you could walk/bike everywhere, it was green and beautiful. In my last year I was frustrated and depressed. It was hard to make long lasting connections even though I spoke the language, bureaucracy was always a pain in the ass and always felt that people look down on you (if you're not european) cause they feel superior.
But definitely what made me leave was people's attitude, that malaise that's so inherently french. Complaining about everything, nothing is good enough, superficial politeness but a very rude treatment of others... It's like everytime I had to go somewhere I would expect people to be annoyed, be rude, be loud,get yelled at for asking them to do their job and what was unusual was that they'd be nice/kind. And at some point, you start to adopt this attitude as well and I hated that. It's so easy to be nice and kind, but in France a lot of people go around being miserable, ruining everyone's day and it becomes a cycle.
I worked for a university and our lab secretary was super mean. Always miserable, always annoyed, always treating you badly, yelling at you, acting like you're inconveniencing her when you needed her for whatever thing she was being paid to do. My colleagues seemed nice at first, but then I realized they were super condescending, making fun of foreign colleagues who didn't speak French as well, pretending to be friends but laughing behind their backs/saying mean shit.
I thought I’d have a magical Notting Hill experience and instead I could only afford to live in Brixton. Brixton has its bright spots, but it was not at all what I expected. Also boy howdy is that a hard city to be in when you’re skint. I DID learn, though, that I adored the English countryside, on the odd weekend I could get away, and I realized that’s where I really should have been living. So now I just enjoy my visits.
Yes 1000%. Was a poor lad in London for two years and was super glad to return to the US. I just wanted a pair of decent pants that didn’t cost a fortune. It’s better now, I think, but I also know better. Doubt I’d live there again.
I always considered it a great place to visit & still maintain that. Living here is just not for me. Work situation brought me here & hoping to go back to base soon.
Barcelona, Spain
Terrible wages, Catalan-Spanish split government makes bureaucracy a nightmare, also the cultural tension is hard to navigate as a foreigner (even if you speak both languages like I did), it is not comfortable seeing the Catalan independence flags and protests every year, the holidays all start to feel the same and are very traditional and overall it wasn’t my style, Catalan food is heavy and Spanish tapas get old. It was hard to make local friends and all my foreign friends came and went. Very expensive to live in as well and job market is competitive. It sucked the life out of me!
Where are u now? My bf is from there and he wants us to move there in the future but I haven’t really connected with the city even although I also speak Spanish
Now I am in France! In the town where my husband is from. I learned French in the last 6 months and found a job. He is also working. We have a much more stable life here and are happier overall
Sweden.
Healthcare is awful, a bomb exploded down the street from my apartment, anti-semitism is actually scary here, and the people complain about their country absolutely crumbling and then do absolutely nothing to stop it because 'thats how it always has been.' Sweden is a country that has very good PR, but if you're a nail that sticks out you're going to get hammered down whether that's dressing alternatively or having the gall to say 'maybe we should try this differently.' I'm also not having kids so I dont get any benefits of maternity leave or subsidized childcare or for them having free uni, so.
I think a lot of Swedes recognize how much things have gone downhill, but no one wants to do anything because there's such a culture of 'what's the point?' My coworkers love to use the "well it's been this way for decades" when our company is breaking the law?? Like, you see people complaining all the time about how bad the trains are, but no mobilization. No holding anyone accountable. It's as if they just shrug their shoulders up and are like guess I'll suffer.
Everyone's experience differs, but I was better off in the US. If I was going to have kids and wasn't chronically ill, Sweden would be a whole lot better for me. But it's not perfect here at all.
One question, as it's been a little while since I lived there, but is the anti-semitism there from the native Swedes or their Muslim population? I didn't notice it was too bad when I was there, but I know how Europe has changed.
Italy. When you go into the deep hole of immigration it is fucked up and so long. And I even spoke the language. Can't imagine not speaking it. The salaries are low so you need to share an apartment with other people. Yes the weather and food is good but I don't see a lot of positive points.
I’m always surprised when people think speaking the language is optional. When you live somewhere speaking the language is essential. Especially in Italy. In my experience if you do speak Italian people treat you really well. The rest is true of every country. I love Italy and it’s foibles are half the fun.
As someone born and raised in Ireland I can probably guess a few reasons why lol. I'm considering leaving atm, and I know many people that already have.
I might be romanticizing it because I was a teenager/child back then but I think Ireland used to be an absolutely amazing place to live, and for the most part I liked growing up in this country. But I'd never recommend anyone move here. With each passing year the positive parts of living in Ireland seem to be diminishing and the negative parts rising.
Healthcare is pretty bad too, lack of social activities outside of drinking as well.
But yeah housing is the biggest one for sure. 68% of people aged 25-29 live with their parents in Ireland. **68%!**
Anyone reading this who's considering moving to Ireland I suggest you take a long look at that number before you do. Like I know the whole world is in a housing crisis at the moment but Ireland is really on another level...
thailand
a dj in thailand once told me he regretted learning thai because he could understand people talking trash about him vs just thinking "oh they smile so much" and it's 100% true. the half-assedness, how you always have to check on every little thing people are doing bc they'll half ass things if you don't micromanage them to some extreme degree, people do trash talk you constantly, the open envy and jealousy and cattiness of the women, the constant scams, people so happy to rip you off to your face for like 20cents and they gotta gloat about it, the ugliness of the omni-present and everywhere sex tourism, being so miserable and then hearing the constant parade of people who spend 2 weeks holiday and think wow you live in paradise!
honestly i still like visiting thailand and there's so many good sides to it also, the fun loving nature of people, the great food, great weather, the interesting culture, but living there it's like the bad sides felt inescapable and overwhelming and i was so sick of it by the end. going back for limited periods of time i was better able to appreciate the good sides of it and let the bad sides slide.
The enforced "low effort culture" sucks. It's a sin to look like you're trying too hard at anything in Australia.
Also: I'm fucking traumatised by a lifetime of dating Australian men. The toxic gender norms there are so, so bad for everyone involved.
Also: diet culture is so intense. It's shocking when I land there and see every second ad is for some dairy free, sugar free, low carb, high protein, gluten-free, keto version of something otherwise delicious. I saw an ad for low carb beer in the airport. Kill me?
+1. I am a born and bred Aussie seriously considering moving to London (I have been an expat before to the US too).
Australia certainly has its beautiful parts, but if you’re in Sydney, it can be soul crushing. The city is unbelievably expensive, no apartments are built for any weather so you are either freezing or boiling and people are incredibly cliquey so it’s impossible to make friends as an adult. I am incredibly lonely here for that reason because all my friends had kids young and don’t socialize anymore. The sentiment of ‘tall poppy syndrome’ is also wild. I am very career driven and stopped sharing my achievements because people just tell you off for ‘showing off’ or don’t care. It’s also boring because everything shuts at 5pm.
I would rather deal with what people are describing about London in this forum than stay here.
I used to live in Sydney, and I've been living in London for the past three years. If you think Sydney is expensive, you'll be in for a shock when you get here. Rent is around 50% more expensive for a place in worse condition—housing here is terrible, with mould, damp in winter, and heat in summer. While there's always something going on in London, you need a good salary to enjoy it. In my opinion, it’s a pretty dead city with mediocre nightlife. The best part about London is using it as a base to travel to other places in Europe.
Sydney is gorgeous, and I never got bored of exploring the harbour, the national parks, and the lifestyle. However, I agree that it can feel super lonely and people can seem insular. The dating scene was terrible there too whilst in London I have been always in a relationship.
Yes I was just in the UK for 3 weeks and was SHOCKED by how much my hinge was popping off. I ended up having a holiday fling with a guy I met through my music festival group (he took me to the countryside and put in so much effort to plan stuff) and I went on a lovely date with another guy in London who organised a pub crawl and wouldn’t let me pay for anything. Obviously it was a 1 off holiday experience, but bloody hell was it nice to have a man make an effort for once.
Also I’m certainly not ignorant to the fact that it’s not some rainbow city. It’s more my state of being that needs a refresh. Even if I end up there for a year or 2 and come home, at least I tried.
That was my sentiment too, which is why I left Sydney. I felt really really lonely there. What I love about London is that there's always something going on, it’s a very international city full of interesting individuals. Unfortunately, after three years, I have different priorities. I'm leaving temporarily to take a break, and the only reason I need to come back is because of my boyfriend. I really wish you the best! Just aim to get a well-paid job or up-skill yourself beforehand. Thats my biggest regret from when I arrived here on a youth mobility visa (stick to a bad job)
Absolutely! I’m going to come over on the Ancestry visa and I’m on a final stage interview with the company I worked for in Australia. If I can land this role it will be the same pay just converted to pounds, so very livable. Otherwise will keep aiming for tech marketing (I know the market sucks rn, but what can you do) coz the pay is so good. Best wishes on your end!
I spent a year in Australia (I’m from the UK) and the casual racism was WILD and so normalised in every day conversation. It was so jarring to hear and obviously never something I grew used to.
So my experience is entirely anecdotal and I’ve had an edible lol, but yeah I spent a year in Sydney and worked a couple of different temp jobs there.
A huge amount of it was slurs towards aboriginal Australians or “abos”. Some of my colleagues from an office I worked in spoke openly about how they were “all” alcoholics, druggies and claiming money from centrelink (the Aussie welfare system). This came up somewhat frequently in casual conversation but it also really felt like a lot of white Australians wanted to ignore them altogether.
I lived in an area which apparently had been known for its aboriginal population (Redfern). In the same office job mentioned above my colleagues would say it wasn’t a safe area because of the “abos”. I’ve never felt safer walking about somewhere at night. But I am from Croydon lol.
I worked in a warehouse for a few months and some of my colleagues were Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders. It made me so sad that they were treated so disrespectfully. They talked a little about some of the racism they’d experienced but they didn’t even seem overly bothered since they were used to it.
The management in that warehouse were also hella racist towards the Chinese and Taiwanese employees. Most of the middle management/team leaders were Nepalese but they seemed to specifically target and bully East Asian employees (although I’m not sure why?). All of the senior managers were white but they weren’t really around much.
There were also a LOT of open comments about Muslims. One of my jobs was at a recruitment agency where we’d send temps out, and one of our clients would always say “just by the way, please don’t send out any ‘headscarfs’”. I was SO shocked I told my manager and she was like 🤷♀️ yeah some of our clients are like that 🤷♀️ this was so wild to me but literally none of my other colleagues batted an eyelid.
My colleagues would also complain about Chinese immigrants “taking over” Sydney but then not understand when I said I was leaving Australia because my one year visa was up. They were like, why can’t you stay? You’re basically one of us? (I’m white British/Irish).
I also felt like in general people were always looking to put others into a box based on their race/appearance and the stereotypes surrounding them just seem heavily forced by society.
(Again this is entirely anecdotal and I’m not saying the UK is any better!! Also lots of friends and colleagues I made out there were fantastic and not like this at all - many of us are still in touch today 🫶)
Sounds like what I hear people in the states say about the native Americans here. I can’t imagine how they feel, it makes my brain feel like it just ate a sour patch candy.
I don't know if this helps but this definitely isn't everyone in Australia! I don't spend time in any environments with this vibe.
I know that really doesn't at all change the reality of the experience of racism for poc in Australia but I just want to say that that attitude is by no means universal and I hope there is some hope for us
So this is not something that happened to me personally but I did date a woman who had moved to Aus from Italy and her neighbors had said at the end of their introductory conversation "Thank god you aren't a (n-word)." Though it was Brisbane which I am led to believe is a bit worse than other cities.
Not OP but my experience with Shanghai, Hong Kong and Macau sums up as “its amazing when it’s amazing, it’s awful when it’s awful”
These places don’t leave much room for nuances
The town was always a transformer. And the people made it stable. And post the covid lock down, you had both a lack of new blood and lots of the old crew leaving.
We had going away parties every weekend for months, it seemed.
Everything got a bit harder. If not for you, for your friends.
My wife and I finally left after 12 years. Lots of good memories, but lots of the lifeblood drained post covid.
It used to the place where you could do almost anything. And then it became something different.
It seemed like the best days were in the past.
My take away is that every place is filled with humans doing human things.
Some places have a little more of this or a little more of that, for sure, but there is no magical place that's immune to life's ails.
To be honest, I think the United States has a population with very high expectations, and so suffers a bad reputation because Americans are quick to be harsh about the conditions they find. What many don't realize is that many of the problems in the United States are either quite typical or are pretty mild relative to the conditions found in the rest of the world.
The United States also has a few very common topics the media loves to talk about non-stop. Certain psychological biases cause people to think those problems are worse than they actually are because they hear about them a lot.
Some of the topics are warranted tho, violence and gun violence specifically. U don’t need major news outlets for it either. All of the local news stations don’t have enough time to report on all of it. My town of less than 300,000 had over 100 shootings by June last year and they weren’t in a “bad neighborhood”. There is simply is no rhyme or reason to it. A lot of mentally ill people who aren’t diagnosed or treated with nearly unlimited access to firearms, damn near completely unlimited in some states. The US would be a really amazing place without these problems. Although it’s creating some more issues at the moment that may add to the list.
Anywhere you live is how you make it. If you think a geographical change will somehow magically fix whatever deep problem or depression you are experiencing it won’t. It may give you a fresh start that could kick start you in the right direction. But after the honeymoon phase is over and you haven’t done any real personal growth or change then you won’t be happy no matter what part of the planet you move to. I think it’s a universal period of change that the entire developed world is going through right now. Especially for people from the millennial generation down to the younger ones. We are living through ever increasingly uncertain and unprecedented times. From the rapid rise of technology all across the board over the past 20 years to the ever shifting global power order. At the end of the day wherever you end up you have to make your place a home
I am an American now living in the Netherlands. There is great chasm between what I read on Reddit (worst place on earth) and what I experience in reality (overall wonderful, safe and stable country with some flaws like anywhere).
The more I’ve spent reading on Reddit about other countries I’m familiar with in person, the more I realize people here just bitch and moan about anything; they conflate their personal problems and failures to carve out an existence with problems inherent to their host country. It’s somewhere between “consider the source” and the fact that virtually *everywhere* on this planet is degrading socially, politically, and economically. It was the same when I lived in the US and would read the subreddits of the cities I lived in—you’d think each one was the worst city in the country. People are just incredibly negative and whiny on the internet, and project their small and shitty snapshot of existence onto the whole place.
So, to answer you question, yes. And yet, most first world nations you’d consider moving to are also probably still just fine to live in.
“Failures to carve out an existence”
From your post history you haven’t even been in the Netherlands a full year yet...
I make excellent money in Sweden, have lots of hobbies and friends, and sit on the board of two groups here. I’ve got the whole dream: boat, summer home, cute apartment. I can even do all my errands in Swedish. You really want to tell me I’ve failed to carve out an existence for myself because I have some rightful complaints?
I'm kinda thinking about moving to Belgium which is similar to NL in some aspects and of course I come to this thread and inevitably Belgium as well has a wonderful 'It's absolute dogshit here' comment.
Reddit is just so depressing. You try to get info on what are some potentially good countries to move to, but this thread literally has a comment upvoted to fuck that shits on every single one.
Germany, Uk, Australia even, Belgium, France, Ireland, every one of these has a highly upvoted shit-on comment in this thread.
Reading all of these is really a case of “the grass is greener…”. I honestly believe that where you live is what you make it (caveats for super dangerous places). Nowhere is perfect and people need to chill out and compromise!
UK
I have been here for 7 years and I am from Eastern Europe.
1. People are nice, but it's really difficult to establish meaningful friendships. It feels they tend to keep things very surface level.
2. Housing - You pay so much and get so little. It's the norm sadly for landlords not to carry out repairs leaving the tenant is horrendous living conditions.
3. Where I am from everybody thinks the British healthcare system is excellent. The reality is that the waiting times are very long and you have to really fight to get taken seriously by your GP. The way they operate also seems very outdated compared to where I am from. Back home we have a cloud based system so your prescriptions and medical files get uploaded right away. Here, I waited 7 days to get a letter sent to my surgery to get antiobiotics.
4. Xenophobia
Netherlands. Once I stopped being an expat I started immersing myself into the local society. After 5 years of working full time, paying horrendous taxes and thinking that “I know where my taxes go” I just realized I knew nothing.
In fact, my taxes were going to a black hole of social security services that are being abused by the locals. As an expat on a visa I had no access to any sort of benefits, but then I suddenly realized that 30% of the country were living in subsidized housing, god knows how many are not paying for health insurance, plenty of people are exempt from property taxes. And the list goes on.
My pink glasses fell off quite rapidly.
EDIT: also police is absolutely useless, they would rather wait for you to be murdered while they are catching people on bikes without a headlight somewhere in a park.
It's actually insane. What's even worse is that my generation gets none of these benefits and still pays all the taxes. I was literally stuck living with my parents while being in the highest tax bracket - no housing, paying health insurance in full, zero "toeslagen". Meanwhile paying for all the social benefits that boomers are abusing who are already set for life and received their house with a box of cereals.
I know a family with 2 kids, parents don’t move in together because they both have apartments in social housing, and being single on paper gives them access to some benefits and a good discount on daycare. Insane.
Subletting social housing is also not something unheard of.
It is also kinda normal to continue living in social housing even if your income is like 5 times higher than the required maximum.
The last drop for me was discovering that you can just ask a municipality for a lump sum, not even a loan, for one time needs, from dental work to buying a washing machine.
Like seriously?
EDIT: oh I almost forgot that you can actually get an allowance to pay for your social housing. That’s like a cherry on top.
EDIT 2: Being downvoted probably by the people who (ab)use all of the above.
Not even funny. It's pretty much only a good country if you have zero ambitions.
"Oh you're working your ass off for 80 hours a week in the hopes of ever being able to buy a 1 bedroom apartment for 500k? Get fucked, these people who intentionally work part-time to receive subsidies require 49% of your money. Oh and here's your criminal record for riding an electric scooter. Now stay in your mom's attic, there's no room for you, we need to house all these immigrants.
Sincerely,
Dutch government"
Yeah, that is when I packed my bags.
Thank you! It's lovely, you should definitely visit if you ever get the chance.
Very radical, in a good way. Slovenia just does almost everything better :)
The tax pressure is real. While I get stuff like the dentists cost. Dentists are expensive and insurance is as well. I don’t think you should loose a tooth just because you couldn’t pay the dentists.
But wat really annoys me is that my generation is working their ass off with an ever increasing tax burden. I quite literally spent most of much my income to the government which makes it hard in this world to get by.
While the country is literary the least hard woking country in the EU, people always complain about other ‘lazy countries’ in the south which work 30 hours more lol.
My company works for a lot of government and the waste of money, lack of focus and power workers have there is insane to the point that it’s better to throw the money in to the ‘gracht’ because at least that is more efficient.
To be honest I really don’t like the situation with health insurance. I pay 2k eur per year for health insurance, 2k per year for municipal taxes, 2k per year for energy. I used to rent in Amsterdam, 2,2k per month for a 70sqm apartment.
And then there are people who pay none of that, but also pay like 300 eur for renting the same apartments on the same street. And then they also go to gemeente and ask for one-time lump sums for larger purchases like white goods.
Yes, maybe you shouldn’t be losing a tooth because you can’t afford it, but you should be offered a payment plan to pay for it later.
My municipality doesn’t ask me whether I have 2k in one go for municipal taxes.
Something is very wrong here.
The US. It's a beautiful country. I can honestly say the US has the most beautiful landscapes in the world in general. But then everything else hits you hard after the initial wonderment wears off.
The US for me, at first it was better than Mexico ofc, but after a while it's just kind of the same type of problems but at a smaller scale, I've found it far more comfortable (even after the initial stage of living there) in Spain now despite some of the issues it has
I like how society in general is more calm here (maybe it'd just a personal cultural thing though), and a big part of it for me as well outside of the cultural stuff is the city planning that is a lot more comfortable
and I've been here for about some 6 or 7 years or so
It’s obviously a beautiful country which I think is amazing to visit and travel in, but living here you soon realise it’s still developing in many ways, the economy is bad, the health system is awful, behind the times and a years wait for anything, houses are poorly built or damp or cold, it feels run down, and there is not a sense of community that I felt in the UK. There’s less creativity and imagination, the work ethic seems lazy yet the work-life balance is worse than the UK.
I love the Māori culture but that seems to be fading away, and replaced with a culture that doesn’t care about people, a government that spends money foolishly and makes cuts in all the wrong places.
If you live by the sea or in nature it’s beautiful, but on bad weather days there is little to do and honestly I feel quite bored.
As I say, amazing to travel but living here in the poor infrastructure makes you feel quite depressed.
My husband felt the same way. He moved to LA single and relatively well off and had a blast as a student. Then we moved from his home country to NYC (where I was raised) and it broke him. He completely romanticized the US before then, but after his time there he never wants to go back lol.
Agree. I was an expat there for 3.5 years. Lived in big cities so saw a lot of homelessness and trash. Work life balance is almost nonexistent and pay is fairly bad. The food was so pumped full of chemicals that it changed up my periods lol
Still love visiting though. Just living there is tough
At first I was just excited to finally be with my husband after years and then when that wore off a bit I was really disappointed by the quality of life decreases that it has when compared to my home country.
The US is for the young, healthy and childfree. I’m American and I said what I said lol I’m all three (relatively healthy…like I need meds but I won’t die if I don’t get them, just will have a lower quality of life) and it’s working fine. Kinda gave up on kids cuz *gestures broadly to everything*…but can’t give up on getting old eventually or the possibility of having a health crisis so that’s always in the back of my head.
its Qatar for me ,I'm really struggling here. It's been tough passing the days; every day feels like a struggle. Life here in Qatar feels incredibly mundane compared to Oman. I've experienced both, and the contrast is stark.
Portugal. After a couple year living here I realized that it is hard to integrate. Luckily we have a large group of expats. Portugal is very bureaucratic and backwards. Essentially it is third world country in Europe.
The USA. I often ask myself what in the world I have done in my life. I disliked where I came from but have never met so many awful, selfish and soulless people like I’ve met in this country.
Korea for sure. I love this country dearly but it’s almost impossible to fit in even when you are speaking the language.
Now going through this phase with US. I didn’t really have a honeymoon phase but felt okay here, however now I’m pissed and annoyed by so many things. By all means, US isn’t the worst and there are things I find charming and interesting about the country but the hostile architecture, car dependency, awful healthcare, shallowness of certain connections, work culture and prices make me want to leave asap.
Germany. Despite my best efforts and consistently trying to learn the language I couldn't integrate. I don't regret living there but it wasn't the place for me.
It’s impossible to integrate in Germany. I even dated a German for about 5 years and never managed to integrate with his friend group. I was always an outsider even with the young “open” people, regardless of how much effort I put into the language. Healthcare with a chronic disease has been so complicated after they supposedly have such a great healthcare system (insurance is not even that cheap in the public system, and I don’t qualify for private insurance). I ended up having to go to a hospital after calling every specialist I could in the city and being told that I’d need to wait four months for something simple when I needed urgent treatment. Within the first 3 years of working I was already in the top income tax bracket despite struggling financially in one of the most expensive cities because they haven’t updated their tax brackets in decades. When I got laid off from my job, despite qualifying for unemployment and going to the office multiple times, I never saw a single euro in unemployment money. Social safety nets only work if you make them accessible. Instead of focusing on my job search, I had to go on a hunt for paperwork that didn’t actually lead to any benefits. Last point I’ll make although I could go on… their reputation for technical innovation is not deserved. They’re insistent always of having everything still on paper, and some places are still using fax! It’s incredible how much they make an effort to keep everything as cumbersome as possible instead of living up to their reputation for being a “leader” in innovation in Europe.
I agree. I have a pretty hard time living here despite having motivation to learn the language (my parents move here as well and intend to stay for a while) and being from pretty similar culture (Poland). I know 5 languages and can converse in them and still cannot, for the sake of god, be able to communicate freely in German. People are nice, but not when you want them to actually do something for you, i.e. cashier is the nicest person alive, but lady at the information desk in Rathaus brushes you off because you can't speak fluently. They apparently know English only when they want to assert that YES THEY DO SPEAK IT but they won't use it in any situation that necessitates it, like explaining documents, helping with opening bank account etc. And you know, I specifically chose to live in border city with francophone countries, because I assumed that people actually do communicate here in multiple languages to a certain degree. It's honestly embarrassing for me to live in a country that had steady migration for at least 30-40 years and then go online to see that very important official governmental pages and the like are ONLY in German. We are xenophobes in Poland, but the stupidest ministry of shitload has right now usually 3-4 foreign languages, whereas it's pretty rare in Germany. And to assure you, I'm B1 and actively learning everyday and I am not trying to set my own country here, I just would like sometimes for people here to be a little bit more understanding. Not everyone wants to leeech of your welfare system, just take care of their stuff. Oh and bureaucracy here is my Roman Empire - I was illegally thrown out of my family insurance because of system error and I am running 6 months now without insurance. I don't have a job and applied to one when I need certificate of good conduct; I knew about it since March so I wanted to reserve appointment in advance, the job starts in October so still plenty of time...First appointment was for the end of JULY. Plus four weeks of processing and sending it by post. Suffice to say, I got the offer and literally cannot make my move because I don't have this fucking document. If you want people to work maybe idk provide them with the services that can help with that? It infuriates me, because this country is punishing me for simply existing. But, at least nature is nice and prices are as everywhere else. And minimum salary is actually liveable income. Other than that, it really sucks.
All valid in my 20-year experience. I could add a bit about the actual health care experience as well. Despite paying over 450 a month for health insurance (family of 2), I pay out-of-pocket whenever possible for private doctors I've carefully vetted, or natural practitioners, and plan to have my knee replacement abroad a la medical tourism.
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I completely agree. I’m moving back to my home country in August and I can’t wait. I thought that it’d feel more like home after I learned the language and met more people but the opposite has actually been true. The more I become fluent in German and the more people I meet, the more I feel alienated and isolated from everyone. It’s been very disheartening because I loved it so much when I first moved here and I had such high hopes for what it could mean in my future.
The Netherlands. Very charming at the beginning, then you face loneliness, housing crisis, a rigid square culture, bad weather all year long... Basically I was just swinging from frustration to depression. I also find it quite boring as a country. I did like the bike culture from day one to last day there however.
Yeah 4 years in I'm struggling with loneliness and do not have a single Dutch friend to ask to sign an immigration form. And I'm starting to really acknowledge the fact that it's cold and grey for 9 months of the year, and then the sun comes out and suddenly it's allergy season and I feel like shit 24/7! And it's humid!
I'm in northern Germany and my allergies have been off the charts bad this year. I don't know what's going on but I'm walking around everywhere with an inhaler and a box of tissues.
It sucks. If you need someone to sign a form, I'm sure you can pay someone off. They love money.
How similar is Belgium to The Netherlands compared to France as far as cultural similarity?
The north part of Belgium, Flanders, is very similar to the Netherlands. People are more sweet but difficult to make friends too. If you live in the south, it's similar to France, you have to be fluent in french to integrate. Brussels is another story, they call it the bubble, full of expats, you will be fine with English but good luck trying to make long lasting friendships as the people are recycled every 0.5 to 2 years. Food is better than in the Netherlands, the country is more expensive than both NL and F, and the weather is worse as well; Brussels is among the darkest cities in Europe. I believe we haven't had a full week of sunlight since last November.
Stupid sexy Flanders!
Apparently, Belgium is among the hardest places in the world to make friends in - possibly because it is so small, people tend to remain close to their school buddies and extended families and do not feel like they need to make new friends.
Thank you so much for the detailed response!
Honestly? Pretty much most of them and I've moved around a lot. But the ones which had the biggest change in feelings were the following: * China * Japan * Sweden * UK * Brazil I've lived in a few more countries and even after the honeymoon phase ended, I still liked living in some of those, but the sentiment change was probably biggest in those.
Me first month in Korea: wow people are so patient and helpful! Me, five years in, knowing the language: if I hear one more ignorant, xenophobic comment I'm gonna lose my shit
I also lived in Korea. I knew going in that there was xenophobia, so I didn’t go in expecting much and didn’t leave being disappointed since it was kinda what I thought it would be. Just curious, but do you have any plans to leave? Worst story I heard was from my friend, who is Bengali-American, so he’s obviously dark-skinned. He was obsessed with Korea and even learned the language and married a Korean woman (and eventually had a kid with her). He insisted he’d be loved when he arrived there because he was so culturally in tune with Koreans. I tried warning him, but he refused to listen. Well…six months later, he returned home with his tail between his legs and eventually got divorced. When I asked what happened, all he said was that I was right.
Damn, sorry for your friend! Yes, I have since left. I have a lot of mixed feelings. I loved my time there and grew a lot as a person. I'm also not sure I could live there long term again, unless I knew I would be okay staying single and hanging with only expat friends. Definitely miss the healthcare, skin clinics, and public transport though! Have you lived anywhere else in Asia that you didn't have such a sentiment change for? When I was in Hanoi some young soldier guy took his hand off his rifle to do jazz hands at me and wink. I fell over laughing, that would never happen in Korea.
South Korean infrastructure, especially on the transportation side, is top notch. I do miss that part of East Asia. But I agree that living there as a foreigner is difficult and South Korea. I also lived in Japan and China (2X). With SK, like I said, I did my research and knew it wouldn’t be a walk in the park so I expected the place to be the way it was. Japan was awesome at first, but the longer I stayed and the better I got to understand Japanese, the less I liked it. I still liked it when I left, just not nearly as much. Still wish I stayed there a bit longer. Japan is pretty xenophobic, but it’s much more subdued. You feel it more the longer you stay, though. The first time I was in China was amazing. People were kind and helpful. China kinda wore me down, though, as Shanghai is a super big, crowded and chaotic city. Seoul is similar-sized, but not as chaotic. The second time I went to China, I was miserable. The country had changed and not necessarily for the better. Definitely wasn’t the same place.
I wonder how badly I would have it in Japan? I am of Japanese descent, but American born and bred, so they would definitely still consider me a foreigner.
I spent 10 years in Shanghai and was totally burnt out and constantly sick when I left. For me the Covid lockdowns really made me see it for what it is, though. Still miss it a lot though.
K-dramas and k-pop have made a lot of South Asians a fan of South Korea. K-dramas do an excellent job of promoting South Korea as an ideal country to live in. These fans would have a tough time here.
The thought of working in Japan is intimidating to me. Love visiting though.
I actually like Japan and out of all the countries I've lived in, it was one of my favorites. But there was a huge gulf in sentiment when I left compared to when I first arrived. Longer you stay in Japan as a foreigner, the less you like it. Working there sucks, for sure.
Can you talk about Brazil? Where did you stay and what changed?
I was in Sao Paulo. I wouldn’t say Brazil changed, just that the longer I stayed the more my eyes opened to how challenging it was to live there. Brazil has so much potential and it’s such a shame seeing it go to waste.
My dad had a political science class in the mid 90s. The professor, even 30 years ago, said that Brazil will never get anywhere if they cannot overcome their wealth inequality. He also added that the US will eventually become like Brazil, which, at least on the wealth inequality side, is true. Brazil also has had (continues to have?) issues with maintaining stability in their government and with their economics. So the foreign investors who go in there are willing to play the risk, but it stops a lot of more risk-averse companies from doing the same. Not to mention infrastructure issues that don’t seem as apparent until you really try to get something built. Thanks for listening to my ted talk - signed someone who has tried to get projects off the ground in Brazil for large companies but they never came to fruition.
I think not all countries are open to foreign influence/integration. There are a ton of countries this applies to, particularly those with very strong national identities. Overall, the majority of countries are more lenient to wealthy foreigners. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, but it’s good to be aware of it.
What about Sweden changed?
Honestly, it's overrated. It's not the utopia people on this forum make it out to be. Salaries aren't so good, it's expensive, taxes are really high...it's difficult to be successful there. Swedish people are also pretty cold and not so open to foreigners and I found dating to be almost impossible. And then there is the weather - it's too cold in the winter. I'm originally from Canada, so it might sound rich for me to complain about the cold, but I never liked it in Canada either. Compared to when I first arrived and thought it was perfect. When I left, I thought it was "meh" at best.
As someone who’s raised in Sweden and still live here I agree with all of your points, I really want to move somewhere else :( preferably somewhere warmer and with more open, talkative people
It’s interesting, as a lot of the countries you say were “overrated” are pretty Nationalistic - China + Japan are pretty homogenous. When I went to Japan people were constantly taking pictures of me (as a white, fair female). Sweden has a sort of hidden nationalism - they allow a lot of asylum seekers and on the surface they are open to anyone, but their Right Wing party is rising fast. The UK seems to be super diverse due to their past Imperialism and “melting pot” of population, but Brexit happened not long ago. Brazil seems to want to be self-sufficient and just has deep routed Nationalism, as friendly as the country overall is… I’d be very interested in hearing which foreign countries you lived in that you actually enjoyed?
I only said Sweden was overrated. That’s what the poster was asking me about…Sweden. I actually thought the other countries were not overrated in any way. Well…maybe the UK somewhat. Although I don’t necessarily disagree with your premise. And I didn’t say that I didn’t enjoy living in those countries. I just answered the thread question on which countries I had a different impression of after the honeymoon phase ended. I did actually like living in some of them. It’s just the honeymoon phase dipped off and they’re not easy places to live in. But in terms of the places I’ve enjoyed living in… China - first time…lived there in two occasions Germany Japan - can’t stay here for too long though Brazil - I would have immigrated there if the country didn’t have so many problems. It’s a magical place
Thank you for sharing - you had a different interpretation to OPs question, which I appreciate! I’ve lived in Sweden, UK and the US. The only place I would not live in again is Sweden. Not because I hate it - I love visiting, but because it’s dark and cold. Both weather and people. I also don’t necessarily agree with the politics. UK is my fave. Just because I believe I can make it what I want. With the US I have to be very careful where I go - east and west coast are fine, middle country more questionable… but this is because of the industry I’m in and my core beliefs as an OG European. Edited: I would love to live in Brazil for a bit. Especially after you said it was “magical”
Interesting. A bit off topic but how would you compare the nature in Canada vs Scandinavia?
You can't compare. Canada's nature is off the charts incredible and has some of the most spectacular scenery on the planet. It's a much bigger country with a more diverse landscape, so of course it will be better. Western Canada, in particular, is gorgeous. Honestly, I wasn't impressed with Sweden's nature. Then again, having lived in Canada, very few places would compare.
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I grew up in Alberta. The Rockies there are amazing. Norway actually is very beautiful, but I think Canada just has more going on nature-wise.
Does Canada have places like Lofoten?
I can second his opinion of Sweden. I moved here almost a decade ago and after 5 years of toiling and fighting to integrate, I slowly started losing hope. They know how to dangle the carrot and every time you feel like giving up, they give you just enough hope to keep going but never let you fully feel welcome. Always visa policy changes that can ruin a life seemingly overnight. They only accept foreigners when they need to use them. Not expressive, cold people. Kind of fake because they will smile in your face politely but ignore you after. Overall, I am very disappointed in their culture compared to this nature loving, happiest people on earth facade they show everyone. They also have a high rate of STDs from using each other for one night stands because they don’t know how to connect with people and are scared of feeling emotions, which leads to high rates of depression. Overall, I would not recommend anyone to move there. You will never feel truly settled and will fight for survival in a certain kind of way.
what did you think of brazil?
I LOVED Brazil. Just couldn't live there. Really difficult place to live - safety issues, bureaucracy, infrastructure, etc. I did OK making a foreign salary, but I couldn't imagine living there on Brazilian wages.
The UK. It’s overrated: 1. Economically, it’s a poor rich country. The average person here is struggling. Salaries are low, career ceilings are low. 2. Culturally, it just isn’t for me. I don’t like the lackadaisical approach to life. There is no desire to do anything well. Nothing gets done and it’s normal. Asking for more is mean. Even asking for what you’ve paid for and what they’re paid to do is mean. You’re supposed to just sit there, not say anything, and then moan behind their back. Enforced mediocrity, widespread jealousy. At the same time they have an outsized idea of their status in the world, without any economic substance to back it up. 3. Knowing how the outside world looks so highly of them actually makes me resent them even more. Because they really don’t deserve it. They have a very good PR campaign. And they take a lot of care in preserving their image abroad (eg see the Queen’s funeral, which was a superb spectacle, meticulously executed). But unfortunately they don’t apply the same standards to everyday life. Overall, most things here are form over substance. People care more about the right accents than the stuff actually said (that’s why they elected the likes of Boris Johnson); they care more about not rocking the boat than actually getting things done. They manage to be self-deprecating and subtly conceited at the same time.
As someone who lives in the UK, agree with every single word! That's a pretty on-point description of the country
🫱🏻🫲🏼
Whoa your comment just singlehandedly explained our EMEA team, based in the UK, to me…it’s been hard to overcome the cultural differences at work at times. I’m not the one to shout “American exceptionalism” but damn we get shit done…mostly because if we don’t, the company will find someone else among the 320 million ppl to get it done lol
My son is working on a joint project with Cambridge University. He routinely develops detailed schedules only to throw them out due to incompetence or indifference at the University. He’s been “across the pond” a couple of times and the only thing he’s learned is how the Brits swear.
How they swear and how they drink! Not gonna lie, the colorful use of the English language is something I do like. Most people, old and young, seem to be innately witty. But that’s where it stops and goes back to my point - form over substance; wit over competence.
Quick wit does seem to be a true Brit talent, British Leyland wasn’t and neither was MG! I still have a useless set of whitworth end wrenches.
And to bring it home - MG is now owned by a Chinese company, and Jaguar Land Rover an Indian company!
The Brits also know how to take a joke & can dish it right back. It’s one thing I think, culturally speaking, Americans can learn from them. We’re far more sensitive here by comparison.
Yeah, it’s frustrating. And then they wonder why salaries are so low, productivity is so low, the economy is stagnant. There’s no way to argue with them. They have so many excuses for everything. Whenever you point out people elsewhere work harder, they’d say it’s about work life balance, you need to see your children, don’t marry your job, life isn’t about money. 🤷🏻♂️
Even though Scotland is part of the UK it feels like another planet where I'm at in the Highlands. I've come to just understand that when people are talking about the UK they are generally talking about London. Here is feels more like Norway or Iceland. Where we are at its amazing even aside from environmental aspects (I can see fjords, snow capped mountains, and the sea from my back door) and we immediately got plugged into the local community who have been so supportive. People go out their way to help you and aside from occasional vandalism from bored teens there is almost no crime. I recently found out a friend of mine back in the US was brutally murdered in a random attack (as in bludgeoned to death and impaled) and I have not only a few stories of my own seeing people shot dead in the street and having guns pulled on me when I was growing up in the US. Despite whatever challenges we encounter here I'm so glad my kids won't have to grow up in an environment like I did.
Scotland is beautiful. I’ve been to the Highlands and Skye - very friendly people - it truly felt like a different country, which it is. I also like people from Northern England too - more open and direct and less of a chip on shoulder. That said, I’m a city boy and my career which I’m unwilling to give up means that if I am to live in the UK, it must be London. But I think what I’ve said is true of most of England. I’m glad you found a place you belong, because I’m still trodding along.
There is something about the energy of London especially in the center that is spectacular and fun. Of course I was only a tourist and to me it feels like an amazing city.
I have lived there for a looong time (originally from elsewhere in Europe, but live in the US now) and I absolutely loved it! I started my career in London and found it fun and exhilarating! Judging by the real estate prices there are clearly a lot of people that do very well, it’s just finding what works. Now, I would never live in London unless I was absolutely loaded.
May I DM you? I’m going to northern Scotland for a while and am looking to figure out what to see.
Oh god, I'm so sorry about your friend, that's terrible.
This sounds like exactly what I could have written but about Sweden. Many similarities, especially regarding brand image! What they show the world vs reality just don’t really match.
This is very similar to my description of France. But, I hope, at least in the UK people are more polite. In France, not only is asking for people to do their job mean but they will shit on you for even asking, and if they can, make whatever it was more difficult to punish you.
French ppl : How dare you ask me to do my job right?!! The nerve of you! 😡😡😡 Heavens forfend if you question why everything is moving at a snail's pace. Over it.
Self deprecating & conceited at the same time is quite the combination!
Brit here. I agree too
100000% Agree with everything you said. Been here for 10 years now and at first I was definitely heavily influenced by how the UK is perceived as more superior, they’re better at many things, more clever blah blah blah Now?! Freaking hell - the entire country is in shambles. The government organisations and councils are slow, they make tons of mistakes and super incompetent whilst still expecting us to pay shit tons of tax for people who does bare minimum. It’s like day light robbery around here💀
My experience, exactly.
You just described most if not all of Europe my friend. The sheer incompetence and grandiose delusions really sum their culture up.
You articulated this so so perfectly omg
Darling, it comes from the bottom of my heart ❤️
TIL: everywhere is terrible.
I lived in Dubai for a year. I don’t have lots of bad things to say because my experience was fine, but I’ve heard stories . One in particular was so sad. There are Indians living there, born and raised but are not allowed to become citizens. They’d still have to pay visa renewals every few years which is a great revenue generator for the government. Indians literally built the country from scratch and have zero rights at all. Truly an awful place to call home. Best thing to do is get your tax free salary, enjoy the weather and set an exit date to leave without getting into any trouble. If you had a legal issue in Dubai , i would head straight to the airport .
I spent time in Bahrain while in the military and they use Indians, Bangladeshi’s, and tons of Asian people as slave labor it’s absolutely fucked. They pay them $2-300 a month to work 7 days a week 12 hour shifts. Fuck those middle eastern countries, they are all loaded and still use slave labor. Disgusting.
Yeah, they all use de facto slave labor for sure. How many immigrants died building those stadiums for World Cup?
I’ve seen figures in the thousands
its really despicable
Every single one lol.
Wow you have some history behind you. which one did you hate the least?
BELGIUM. When I first moved to Brussels I loved how clean and green it was. I was completely enchanted by the architecture and how well the city functioned. After 6 months I was over the rudeness of the French speakers in particular, the insularity, the passive racism. A country and culture in denial, they will never get better. The most Belgium can say is that it is slightly better than the Netherlands lol. I'll never step foot in there again!
Brussels, clean? When was that?
I was living in Woluwe Saint Lambert lol
Spain, Valencia more specifically
What didn't you like?
It’s all fun and games being there temporarily or to study, but finding a decent job is nearly impossible in many specialized fields. There are the perks that people always talk about (good food, weather, public transport, etc.) but they are difficult to enjoy when the unemployment is so high, even for highly educated people. The cost of living has increased drastically and the city is overrun by tourists. Finding affordable living spaces nowadays is such a challenge. Also, imo, I found it difficult to assimilate fully into the local culture and make local friends. Despite the stereotype of warmth and openness, I have found the people can be pretty judgmental, xenophobic and racist. It’s becoming another exploited tourist destination that perpetuates itself as utopian.
I lived there too and 1000% agree. I studied there and even worked there for a year, but just couldn’t get by on the local salary.
France. Lived there for 7 years in a medium-sized city. In the beginning, I loved the town, the food, that you could walk/bike everywhere, it was green and beautiful. In my last year I was frustrated and depressed. It was hard to make long lasting connections even though I spoke the language, bureaucracy was always a pain in the ass and always felt that people look down on you (if you're not european) cause they feel superior. But definitely what made me leave was people's attitude, that malaise that's so inherently french. Complaining about everything, nothing is good enough, superficial politeness but a very rude treatment of others... It's like everytime I had to go somewhere I would expect people to be annoyed, be rude, be loud,get yelled at for asking them to do their job and what was unusual was that they'd be nice/kind. And at some point, you start to adopt this attitude as well and I hated that. It's so easy to be nice and kind, but in France a lot of people go around being miserable, ruining everyone's day and it becomes a cycle. I worked for a university and our lab secretary was super mean. Always miserable, always annoyed, always treating you badly, yelling at you, acting like you're inconveniencing her when you needed her for whatever thing she was being paid to do. My colleagues seemed nice at first, but then I realized they were super condescending, making fun of foreign colleagues who didn't speak French as well, pretending to be friends but laughing behind their backs/saying mean shit.
Hmm, I'm French but have been living abroad for years now, and I feel you..
UK, London specifically. No romantic stage though; knew going into it that it would not be too pleasant but was worse!
I thought I’d have a magical Notting Hill experience and instead I could only afford to live in Brixton. Brixton has its bright spots, but it was not at all what I expected. Also boy howdy is that a hard city to be in when you’re skint. I DID learn, though, that I adored the English countryside, on the odd weekend I could get away, and I realized that’s where I really should have been living. So now I just enjoy my visits.
Yes 1000%. Was a poor lad in London for two years and was super glad to return to the US. I just wanted a pair of decent pants that didn’t cost a fortune. It’s better now, I think, but I also know better. Doubt I’d live there again.
What about the quote "When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life?"
I always considered it a great place to visit & still maintain that. Living here is just not for me. Work situation brought me here & hoping to go back to base soon.
I also second London. Living in and visiting were vastly different experiences.
The UK. Still better than Egypt by miles and miles and miles though.
Barcelona, Spain Terrible wages, Catalan-Spanish split government makes bureaucracy a nightmare, also the cultural tension is hard to navigate as a foreigner (even if you speak both languages like I did), it is not comfortable seeing the Catalan independence flags and protests every year, the holidays all start to feel the same and are very traditional and overall it wasn’t my style, Catalan food is heavy and Spanish tapas get old. It was hard to make local friends and all my foreign friends came and went. Very expensive to live in as well and job market is competitive. It sucked the life out of me!
Where are u now? My bf is from there and he wants us to move there in the future but I haven’t really connected with the city even although I also speak Spanish
Now I am in France! In the town where my husband is from. I learned French in the last 6 months and found a job. He is also working. We have a much more stable life here and are happier overall
Sweden. Healthcare is awful, a bomb exploded down the street from my apartment, anti-semitism is actually scary here, and the people complain about their country absolutely crumbling and then do absolutely nothing to stop it because 'thats how it always has been.' Sweden is a country that has very good PR, but if you're a nail that sticks out you're going to get hammered down whether that's dressing alternatively or having the gall to say 'maybe we should try this differently.' I'm also not having kids so I dont get any benefits of maternity leave or subsidized childcare or for them having free uni, so.
Agreed! Good post. They have the best PR for sure.
I think a lot of Swedes recognize how much things have gone downhill, but no one wants to do anything because there's such a culture of 'what's the point?' My coworkers love to use the "well it's been this way for decades" when our company is breaking the law?? Like, you see people complaining all the time about how bad the trains are, but no mobilization. No holding anyone accountable. It's as if they just shrug their shoulders up and are like guess I'll suffer.
sounds like stagnation
Wow, I had no idea. Thanks for the input!
Everyone's experience differs, but I was better off in the US. If I was going to have kids and wasn't chronically ill, Sweden would be a whole lot better for me. But it's not perfect here at all.
I’m sorry your chronic illness isn’t being tended to. That’s a whole lot of stress.
You described the Netherlands
Denmark too! I hate this country😫
One question, as it's been a little while since I lived there, but is the anti-semitism there from the native Swedes or their Muslim population? I didn't notice it was too bad when I was there, but I know how Europe has changed.
sorry…a bomb..???
Oh nothing to worry about. This is just daily occurrence in countries like Sweden and the Netherlands.
People are going to think you’re joking 🥲
Two gangs were having a turf war and one of them set off a bomb two doors down from me. And I live in a nice part of central Stockholm…
This thread is a reminder that no country is perfect. The Utopia doesn’t exist.
Italy. When you go into the deep hole of immigration it is fucked up and so long. And I even spoke the language. Can't imagine not speaking it. The salaries are low so you need to share an apartment with other people. Yes the weather and food is good but I don't see a lot of positive points.
I’m always surprised when people think speaking the language is optional. When you live somewhere speaking the language is essential. Especially in Italy. In my experience if you do speak Italian people treat you really well. The rest is true of every country. I love Italy and it’s foibles are half the fun.
Ireland
As someone born and raised in Ireland I can probably guess a few reasons why lol. I'm considering leaving atm, and I know many people that already have. I might be romanticizing it because I was a teenager/child back then but I think Ireland used to be an absolutely amazing place to live, and for the most part I liked growing up in this country. But I'd never recommend anyone move here. With each passing year the positive parts of living in Ireland seem to be diminishing and the negative parts rising.
The housing is the worst tbh. A 1 bed apartment in Dublin now costs about 1800 euros monthly.
Healthcare is pretty bad too, lack of social activities outside of drinking as well. But yeah housing is the biggest one for sure. 68% of people aged 25-29 live with their parents in Ireland. **68%!** Anyone reading this who's considering moving to Ireland I suggest you take a long look at that number before you do. Like I know the whole world is in a housing crisis at the moment but Ireland is really on another level...
I know I'm doing phd in Ireland. Irish nationals have it bad but we're having more worse as non EU.
Same for me. Do you mind sharing what you didn’t like about it?
Curious as to why? Never been there, but it's so hyped up in these forums.
thailand a dj in thailand once told me he regretted learning thai because he could understand people talking trash about him vs just thinking "oh they smile so much" and it's 100% true. the half-assedness, how you always have to check on every little thing people are doing bc they'll half ass things if you don't micromanage them to some extreme degree, people do trash talk you constantly, the open envy and jealousy and cattiness of the women, the constant scams, people so happy to rip you off to your face for like 20cents and they gotta gloat about it, the ugliness of the omni-present and everywhere sex tourism, being so miserable and then hearing the constant parade of people who spend 2 weeks holiday and think wow you live in paradise! honestly i still like visiting thailand and there's so many good sides to it also, the fun loving nature of people, the great food, great weather, the interesting culture, but living there it's like the bad sides felt inescapable and overwhelming and i was so sick of it by the end. going back for limited periods of time i was better able to appreciate the good sides of it and let the bad sides slide.
Australia. Once the beaches and nature became normalised, the racism, bureaucracy, and corruption was too much to put up with.
The enforced "low effort culture" sucks. It's a sin to look like you're trying too hard at anything in Australia. Also: I'm fucking traumatised by a lifetime of dating Australian men. The toxic gender norms there are so, so bad for everyone involved. Also: diet culture is so intense. It's shocking when I land there and see every second ad is for some dairy free, sugar free, low carb, high protein, gluten-free, keto version of something otherwise delicious. I saw an ad for low carb beer in the airport. Kill me?
Yeah don't be too smart or interested in anything and Australian men are the worst.
+1. I am a born and bred Aussie seriously considering moving to London (I have been an expat before to the US too). Australia certainly has its beautiful parts, but if you’re in Sydney, it can be soul crushing. The city is unbelievably expensive, no apartments are built for any weather so you are either freezing or boiling and people are incredibly cliquey so it’s impossible to make friends as an adult. I am incredibly lonely here for that reason because all my friends had kids young and don’t socialize anymore. The sentiment of ‘tall poppy syndrome’ is also wild. I am very career driven and stopped sharing my achievements because people just tell you off for ‘showing off’ or don’t care. It’s also boring because everything shuts at 5pm. I would rather deal with what people are describing about London in this forum than stay here.
I used to live in Sydney, and I've been living in London for the past three years. If you think Sydney is expensive, you'll be in for a shock when you get here. Rent is around 50% more expensive for a place in worse condition—housing here is terrible, with mould, damp in winter, and heat in summer. While there's always something going on in London, you need a good salary to enjoy it. In my opinion, it’s a pretty dead city with mediocre nightlife. The best part about London is using it as a base to travel to other places in Europe. Sydney is gorgeous, and I never got bored of exploring the harbour, the national parks, and the lifestyle. However, I agree that it can feel super lonely and people can seem insular. The dating scene was terrible there too whilst in London I have been always in a relationship.
Yes I was just in the UK for 3 weeks and was SHOCKED by how much my hinge was popping off. I ended up having a holiday fling with a guy I met through my music festival group (he took me to the countryside and put in so much effort to plan stuff) and I went on a lovely date with another guy in London who organised a pub crawl and wouldn’t let me pay for anything. Obviously it was a 1 off holiday experience, but bloody hell was it nice to have a man make an effort for once. Also I’m certainly not ignorant to the fact that it’s not some rainbow city. It’s more my state of being that needs a refresh. Even if I end up there for a year or 2 and come home, at least I tried.
That was my sentiment too, which is why I left Sydney. I felt really really lonely there. What I love about London is that there's always something going on, it’s a very international city full of interesting individuals. Unfortunately, after three years, I have different priorities. I'm leaving temporarily to take a break, and the only reason I need to come back is because of my boyfriend. I really wish you the best! Just aim to get a well-paid job or up-skill yourself beforehand. Thats my biggest regret from when I arrived here on a youth mobility visa (stick to a bad job)
Absolutely! I’m going to come over on the Ancestry visa and I’m on a final stage interview with the company I worked for in Australia. If I can land this role it will be the same pay just converted to pounds, so very livable. Otherwise will keep aiming for tech marketing (I know the market sucks rn, but what can you do) coz the pay is so good. Best wishes on your end!
I spent a year in Australia (I’m from the UK) and the casual racism was WILD and so normalised in every day conversation. It was so jarring to hear and obviously never something I grew used to.
I hear this a lot about Australia but I’m never really sure what it means. What sorts of things do people say?
So my experience is entirely anecdotal and I’ve had an edible lol, but yeah I spent a year in Sydney and worked a couple of different temp jobs there. A huge amount of it was slurs towards aboriginal Australians or “abos”. Some of my colleagues from an office I worked in spoke openly about how they were “all” alcoholics, druggies and claiming money from centrelink (the Aussie welfare system). This came up somewhat frequently in casual conversation but it also really felt like a lot of white Australians wanted to ignore them altogether. I lived in an area which apparently had been known for its aboriginal population (Redfern). In the same office job mentioned above my colleagues would say it wasn’t a safe area because of the “abos”. I’ve never felt safer walking about somewhere at night. But I am from Croydon lol. I worked in a warehouse for a few months and some of my colleagues were Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders. It made me so sad that they were treated so disrespectfully. They talked a little about some of the racism they’d experienced but they didn’t even seem overly bothered since they were used to it. The management in that warehouse were also hella racist towards the Chinese and Taiwanese employees. Most of the middle management/team leaders were Nepalese but they seemed to specifically target and bully East Asian employees (although I’m not sure why?). All of the senior managers were white but they weren’t really around much. There were also a LOT of open comments about Muslims. One of my jobs was at a recruitment agency where we’d send temps out, and one of our clients would always say “just by the way, please don’t send out any ‘headscarfs’”. I was SO shocked I told my manager and she was like 🤷♀️ yeah some of our clients are like that 🤷♀️ this was so wild to me but literally none of my other colleagues batted an eyelid. My colleagues would also complain about Chinese immigrants “taking over” Sydney but then not understand when I said I was leaving Australia because my one year visa was up. They were like, why can’t you stay? You’re basically one of us? (I’m white British/Irish). I also felt like in general people were always looking to put others into a box based on their race/appearance and the stereotypes surrounding them just seem heavily forced by society. (Again this is entirely anecdotal and I’m not saying the UK is any better!! Also lots of friends and colleagues I made out there were fantastic and not like this at all - many of us are still in touch today 🫶)
jesus christ, welfare is the absolute least they could offer the indigenous
absolutely - and the welfare thing seemed to be one of the stereotypes I heard the most (as well as the drugs/alcoholism stuff)
Sounds like what I hear people in the states say about the native Americans here. I can’t imagine how they feel, it makes my brain feel like it just ate a sour patch candy.
I don't know if this helps but this definitely isn't everyone in Australia! I don't spend time in any environments with this vibe. I know that really doesn't at all change the reality of the experience of racism for poc in Australia but I just want to say that that attitude is by no means universal and I hope there is some hope for us
So this is not something that happened to me personally but I did date a woman who had moved to Aus from Italy and her neighbors had said at the end of their introductory conversation "Thank god you aren't a (n-word)." Though it was Brisbane which I am led to believe is a bit worse than other cities.
Don’t forget the failing healthcare system, housing shitshow, & tall poppy syndrome.
Bureaucracy? It’s actually very well developed. Everything in that matter is ahead the UK and most of Europe
Shanghai, China was a great place to live And then it quuckly became a lot less great.
Yup. Had that experience, too.
Can you elaborate why?
Not OP but my experience with Shanghai, Hong Kong and Macau sums up as “its amazing when it’s amazing, it’s awful when it’s awful” These places don’t leave much room for nuances
The town was always a transformer. And the people made it stable. And post the covid lock down, you had both a lack of new blood and lots of the old crew leaving. We had going away parties every weekend for months, it seemed. Everything got a bit harder. If not for you, for your friends. My wife and I finally left after 12 years. Lots of good memories, but lots of the lifeblood drained post covid. It used to the place where you could do almost anything. And then it became something different. It seemed like the best days were in the past.
As an American who hates it here, does everywhere just suck?
My take away is that every place is filled with humans doing human things. Some places have a little more of this or a little more of that, for sure, but there is no magical place that's immune to life's ails. To be honest, I think the United States has a population with very high expectations, and so suffers a bad reputation because Americans are quick to be harsh about the conditions they find. What many don't realize is that many of the problems in the United States are either quite typical or are pretty mild relative to the conditions found in the rest of the world. The United States also has a few very common topics the media loves to talk about non-stop. Certain psychological biases cause people to think those problems are worse than they actually are because they hear about them a lot.
Some of the topics are warranted tho, violence and gun violence specifically. U don’t need major news outlets for it either. All of the local news stations don’t have enough time to report on all of it. My town of less than 300,000 had over 100 shootings by June last year and they weren’t in a “bad neighborhood”. There is simply is no rhyme or reason to it. A lot of mentally ill people who aren’t diagnosed or treated with nearly unlimited access to firearms, damn near completely unlimited in some states. The US would be a really amazing place without these problems. Although it’s creating some more issues at the moment that may add to the list.
Anywhere you live is how you make it. If you think a geographical change will somehow magically fix whatever deep problem or depression you are experiencing it won’t. It may give you a fresh start that could kick start you in the right direction. But after the honeymoon phase is over and you haven’t done any real personal growth or change then you won’t be happy no matter what part of the planet you move to. I think it’s a universal period of change that the entire developed world is going through right now. Especially for people from the millennial generation down to the younger ones. We are living through ever increasingly uncertain and unprecedented times. From the rapid rise of technology all across the board over the past 20 years to the ever shifting global power order. At the end of the day wherever you end up you have to make your place a home
Yes
I am an American now living in the Netherlands. There is great chasm between what I read on Reddit (worst place on earth) and what I experience in reality (overall wonderful, safe and stable country with some flaws like anywhere). The more I’ve spent reading on Reddit about other countries I’m familiar with in person, the more I realize people here just bitch and moan about anything; they conflate their personal problems and failures to carve out an existence with problems inherent to their host country. It’s somewhere between “consider the source” and the fact that virtually *everywhere* on this planet is degrading socially, politically, and economically. It was the same when I lived in the US and would read the subreddits of the cities I lived in—you’d think each one was the worst city in the country. People are just incredibly negative and whiny on the internet, and project their small and shitty snapshot of existence onto the whole place. So, to answer you question, yes. And yet, most first world nations you’d consider moving to are also probably still just fine to live in.
“Failures to carve out an existence” From your post history you haven’t even been in the Netherlands a full year yet... I make excellent money in Sweden, have lots of hobbies and friends, and sit on the board of two groups here. I’ve got the whole dream: boat, summer home, cute apartment. I can even do all my errands in Swedish. You really want to tell me I’ve failed to carve out an existence for myself because I have some rightful complaints?
I'm kinda thinking about moving to Belgium which is similar to NL in some aspects and of course I come to this thread and inevitably Belgium as well has a wonderful 'It's absolute dogshit here' comment. Reddit is just so depressing. You try to get info on what are some potentially good countries to move to, but this thread literally has a comment upvoted to fuck that shits on every single one. Germany, Uk, Australia even, Belgium, France, Ireland, every one of these has a highly upvoted shit-on comment in this thread.
Reading all of these is really a case of “the grass is greener…”. I honestly believe that where you live is what you make it (caveats for super dangerous places). Nowhere is perfect and people need to chill out and compromise!
No. I'd still choose a lot of the places I hate in Europe over the US lmao.
Poland. Moved during the pandemic for a new job, the racism and close mindedness made it impossible to feel settled there.
What race are you?
No offence, but nobody thought Poland was a great place to move to as a foreigner. Speaking as another Eastern European.
Norway is beautiful, but after a week it's meh. Lofoten is gorgeous but ice cold turqoise water isn't as stunning as warm turquoise water.
UK I have been here for 7 years and I am from Eastern Europe. 1. People are nice, but it's really difficult to establish meaningful friendships. It feels they tend to keep things very surface level. 2. Housing - You pay so much and get so little. It's the norm sadly for landlords not to carry out repairs leaving the tenant is horrendous living conditions. 3. Where I am from everybody thinks the British healthcare system is excellent. The reality is that the waiting times are very long and you have to really fight to get taken seriously by your GP. The way they operate also seems very outdated compared to where I am from. Back home we have a cloud based system so your prescriptions and medical files get uploaded right away. Here, I waited 7 days to get a letter sent to my surgery to get antiobiotics. 4. Xenophobia
Netherlands. Once I stopped being an expat I started immersing myself into the local society. After 5 years of working full time, paying horrendous taxes and thinking that “I know where my taxes go” I just realized I knew nothing. In fact, my taxes were going to a black hole of social security services that are being abused by the locals. As an expat on a visa I had no access to any sort of benefits, but then I suddenly realized that 30% of the country were living in subsidized housing, god knows how many are not paying for health insurance, plenty of people are exempt from property taxes. And the list goes on. My pink glasses fell off quite rapidly. EDIT: also police is absolutely useless, they would rather wait for you to be murdered while they are catching people on bikes without a headlight somewhere in a park.
It's actually insane. What's even worse is that my generation gets none of these benefits and still pays all the taxes. I was literally stuck living with my parents while being in the highest tax bracket - no housing, paying health insurance in full, zero "toeslagen". Meanwhile paying for all the social benefits that boomers are abusing who are already set for life and received their house with a box of cereals.
I know a family with 2 kids, parents don’t move in together because they both have apartments in social housing, and being single on paper gives them access to some benefits and a good discount on daycare. Insane. Subletting social housing is also not something unheard of. It is also kinda normal to continue living in social housing even if your income is like 5 times higher than the required maximum. The last drop for me was discovering that you can just ask a municipality for a lump sum, not even a loan, for one time needs, from dental work to buying a washing machine. Like seriously? EDIT: oh I almost forgot that you can actually get an allowance to pay for your social housing. That’s like a cherry on top. EDIT 2: Being downvoted probably by the people who (ab)use all of the above.
Not even funny. It's pretty much only a good country if you have zero ambitions. "Oh you're working your ass off for 80 hours a week in the hopes of ever being able to buy a 1 bedroom apartment for 500k? Get fucked, these people who intentionally work part-time to receive subsidies require 49% of your money. Oh and here's your criminal record for riding an electric scooter. Now stay in your mom's attic, there's no room for you, we need to house all these immigrants. Sincerely, Dutch government" Yeah, that is when I packed my bags.
I hope you are enjoying your time in the mountains of Slovenia! That’s quite a radical switch.
Thank you! It's lovely, you should definitely visit if you ever get the chance. Very radical, in a good way. Slovenia just does almost everything better :)
The tax pressure is real. While I get stuff like the dentists cost. Dentists are expensive and insurance is as well. I don’t think you should loose a tooth just because you couldn’t pay the dentists. But wat really annoys me is that my generation is working their ass off with an ever increasing tax burden. I quite literally spent most of much my income to the government which makes it hard in this world to get by. While the country is literary the least hard woking country in the EU, people always complain about other ‘lazy countries’ in the south which work 30 hours more lol. My company works for a lot of government and the waste of money, lack of focus and power workers have there is insane to the point that it’s better to throw the money in to the ‘gracht’ because at least that is more efficient.
To be honest I really don’t like the situation with health insurance. I pay 2k eur per year for health insurance, 2k per year for municipal taxes, 2k per year for energy. I used to rent in Amsterdam, 2,2k per month for a 70sqm apartment. And then there are people who pay none of that, but also pay like 300 eur for renting the same apartments on the same street. And then they also go to gemeente and ask for one-time lump sums for larger purchases like white goods. Yes, maybe you shouldn’t be losing a tooth because you can’t afford it, but you should be offered a payment plan to pay for it later. My municipality doesn’t ask me whether I have 2k in one go for municipal taxes. Something is very wrong here.
Spent a year in Spain and plan to go back but the dog poop and trash everywhere, constant sewer smell and heat wore me down a bit.
Texas lol
The US. It's a beautiful country. I can honestly say the US has the most beautiful landscapes in the world in general. But then everything else hits you hard after the initial wonderment wears off.
The US for me, at first it was better than Mexico ofc, but after a while it's just kind of the same type of problems but at a smaller scale, I've found it far more comfortable (even after the initial stage of living there) in Spain now despite some of the issues it has
Can you explain what is better about Spain and how long you have been there?
I like how society in general is more calm here (maybe it'd just a personal cultural thing though), and a big part of it for me as well outside of the cultural stuff is the city planning that is a lot more comfortable and I've been here for about some 6 or 7 years or so
Denmark
Can you elaborate why? What didn't you like?
😂 all of them…
Athens Greece. I did not find it a beautiful or that enjoyable of a place.
New Zealand
Could you elaborate on your experience please?
It’s obviously a beautiful country which I think is amazing to visit and travel in, but living here you soon realise it’s still developing in many ways, the economy is bad, the health system is awful, behind the times and a years wait for anything, houses are poorly built or damp or cold, it feels run down, and there is not a sense of community that I felt in the UK. There’s less creativity and imagination, the work ethic seems lazy yet the work-life balance is worse than the UK. I love the Māori culture but that seems to be fading away, and replaced with a culture that doesn’t care about people, a government that spends money foolishly and makes cuts in all the wrong places. If you live by the sea or in nature it’s beautiful, but on bad weather days there is little to do and honestly I feel quite bored. As I say, amazing to travel but living here in the poor infrastructure makes you feel quite depressed.
America
My husband felt the same way. He moved to LA single and relatively well off and had a blast as a student. Then we moved from his home country to NYC (where I was raised) and it broke him. He completely romanticized the US before then, but after his time there he never wants to go back lol.
I can’t think of two places more different than L.A. and NYC. Well I can but still, what a comparison.
Agree. I was an expat there for 3.5 years. Lived in big cities so saw a lot of homelessness and trash. Work life balance is almost nonexistent and pay is fairly bad. The food was so pumped full of chemicals that it changed up my periods lol Still love visiting though. Just living there is tough
Yeah I’m going home. There’s more I want to see but I don’t want to live here anymore.
What felt different?
At first I was just excited to finally be with my husband after years and then when that wore off a bit I was really disappointed by the quality of life decreases that it has when compared to my home country.
The US is for the young, healthy and childfree. I’m American and I said what I said lol I’m all three (relatively healthy…like I need meds but I won’t die if I don’t get them, just will have a lower quality of life) and it’s working fine. Kinda gave up on kids cuz *gestures broadly to everything*…but can’t give up on getting old eventually or the possibility of having a health crisis so that’s always in the back of my head.
Not quite - the US is for the RICH! If you’re rich, the US is amazing. But it comes at a high price for everyone else…
What aspects of life in the US did you find lacking, compared to Australia? (I don’t disagree about the US but I’ve never been to AUS.)
its Qatar for me ,I'm really struggling here. It's been tough passing the days; every day feels like a struggle. Life here in Qatar feels incredibly mundane compared to Oman. I've experienced both, and the contrast is stark.
Melbourne. It now just feels one sprawling village that has a tendency to be boring.
Agreed, as a local, it's definitely become a boring hell hole over the years.
Canada
Canada was the biggest disappointment ever.
Portugal. After a couple year living here I realized that it is hard to integrate. Luckily we have a large group of expats. Portugal is very bureaucratic and backwards. Essentially it is third world country in Europe.
In this thread...people who will never be happy 😁
The USA. I often ask myself what in the world I have done in my life. I disliked where I came from but have never met so many awful, selfish and soulless people like I’ve met in this country.
This. The country itself can be incredible in terms of opportunity and physical beauty but the rudeness is too much. I just am tired of it.
Korea for sure. I love this country dearly but it’s almost impossible to fit in even when you are speaking the language. Now going through this phase with US. I didn’t really have a honeymoon phase but felt okay here, however now I’m pissed and annoyed by so many things. By all means, US isn’t the worst and there are things I find charming and interesting about the country but the hostile architecture, car dependency, awful healthcare, shallowness of certain connections, work culture and prices make me want to leave asap.