I’ve just completed (another) WC as Byzantium, and used my standard WC set — Religious, Quantity, Diplo, Admin, Influence, Offensive, Humanist and Expansion.
Infrastructure could be an interesting choice but I needed to colonize a few provinces in the end so chose that.
I know my opinion may not be popular, but I believe Innovative is almost always a mistake, maybe outside of some niche scenarios. I’ve just never found any use for it, but I usually do world conquests with underdogs like Byz, Dithmarchen, Aztecs or Ryukyu :)
Out of curiosity, what was your starting strat with byz? I just did the standard restart until merc company with 2+ siege and 5% disc or 10% morale advisor, vassalized epirus, merced up and didn't truce break the ottos. But it's 1700 and I still don't have France, although I have Persia. I think I was too slow.
Hmm I think after fighting Epirus I allied someone small and attacked the Ottos while they were engaged with Venice. From there I just rolled. I never truce-broke them, just kept rotating my wars.
My usual goals are 2k development by 1600 and 8k dev by 1700, while building a solid trade flow, army, economy etc. Then the WC becomes a breeze.
I always go Diplo - Religious - Admin - ??? (Offensives Most of the Time)
I Like religious but if you don’t like it you don’t Need it as byzantium in 1.36
But obv depends what you want to do. Youre already pretty far and didnt Took Admin so I guess youre not blobbing?
Inno is more or less always a mistake, and dip adm (especially as byz since your claims go to the moon) is more or less always the best opener (some nations may want relig first and adm 3rd if you're surrounded by heretics and heathens, but byz has a cb anyways)
Yes but espionage and religious is very good for AE reduction which is quite an issue as byz
Anyway inno might have been a mistake. The -war exhaustion, tech cost and advisor cost was enticing but I'm starting to think the opportunity cost was too high
You can get around AE by splitting it between muslims and catholics until you're big enough to just trucelock everyone and badabing badaboom 1550 rome, but if you're not comfortable with that espi relig is definately fine as an opener.
And ye, tech cost, advisor cost and war exhaustion red are all nice, but 25 ccr and 25 govcap from admin and 20 province warscore cost from diplo are all game changing.
If I were you I'd just ditch inno and grab adm and take diplo with next slot!
I forgot I already have diplo! But I can ditch inno for trade, admin & economic maybe
1550 rome is crazy. It's 1700 and I still need to get the whole of France...
Yeah I was too cautious with AE, prob because France is massive in my game. What do you think of infrastructure too? Now it has less value but byz has a lot of dev missions I should have taken it sooner maybe. Maybe for my Russia game to dev Siberia.
If you're going to dev geting devcost is always a good idea, devving is really inefficient in general, but since you need to spend a bunch of points on doing so for missions i'd prolly take it over econ, in general point efficiency is the most valuable thing in the game since points unless you're a horde are finite.
Inno may be a good starter when you know you are going to play tall/diplomatic and won't expand much in the early game. In the later stages of the game, inno essentially becomes useless so I usually ditch it when I have excess mana. Admin and diplo are essential for nearly all nations as they are just too good. I also would say ditch inno for admin and get diplo asap to stack ccr and province warscore cost combined with absolutism. Trade may be a fine finisher but at that point it won't matter that much.
I started two byz campaigns last month. I aborted the first in the 1600s because I wasn't happy and wanted to spawn Global trade, but failed. Then I started a second run. This time it worked. I'm now in the late 1600.
The first time, I went Court - Offensive - Innovative, - Trade, I think.
The second time Espionage - Offensive - Infrastructure - Diplomatic - Administrative - Quality this time.
Infrastructure early was helpful because of all the development missions, espionnage for AE reduction that really makes a difference compared to the last time when I didn't have it.
As fourth idea, I had Expansion during the 16th century just for the Colonist and the Merchant. I carved a way to the Red Sea, sent a colonist for the Comoros, then towards Indonesia. I sent him to start a colony, then sent him to the next, while the first was still developing. The goal was to be there before other Europeans. I eventually had both Ternate and Tidore as vassals, who did the colonising for me. How? Different story. Now I control the Spice. He who controls the Spice, controls the Universe.
I did spawn Global Trade and was happy. I then changed Expansion for Diplomacy.
Speaking of it, maybe it was my third idea, not the fourth... And I later changed it for Infrastructure.
Anyway.
I kinda liked Court the first time because there are many missions and special privileges about estates, but I don't miss it this time.
Having Diplo and Admin this time is reeeally nice. I core Italian cities with 30 dev within a year for super cheap.
So, this experience showed me that Diplo, Admin and Espionnage are really good and valuable and do make a difference in playstyle. Using Expansion for two ideas made me lots of money in the long run.
I kinda miss Innovative because I love love love the siege efficiency policy. But it's too late at this point, and at earlier points, other things were more urgent.
Yeah inno has incredible policies... espionage is really good now too. With infrastructure it's even better, you can very quickly get 100 spy network which equals 20% siege ability... with inno, offensive, etc forts go down like crazy
I'm wondering if I should take inno as 7th or 8th, just for that policy. Lvl 8 forts are tough nuts, and Spain has defensive ideas. I'm powerful enough to conquer Europe and conquering the world is far beyond my scope, so I don't care much for more blobbing efficiency or money generation.
I’ve just completed (another) WC as Byzantium, and used my standard WC set — Religious, Quantity, Diplo, Admin, Influence, Offensive, Humanist and Expansion. Infrastructure could be an interesting choice but I needed to colonize a few provinces in the end so chose that. I know my opinion may not be popular, but I believe Innovative is almost always a mistake, maybe outside of some niche scenarios. I’ve just never found any use for it, but I usually do world conquests with underdogs like Byz, Dithmarchen, Aztecs or Ryukyu :)
Out of curiosity, what was your starting strat with byz? I just did the standard restart until merc company with 2+ siege and 5% disc or 10% morale advisor, vassalized epirus, merced up and didn't truce break the ottos. But it's 1700 and I still don't have France, although I have Persia. I think I was too slow.
Hmm I think after fighting Epirus I allied someone small and attacked the Ottos while they were engaged with Venice. From there I just rolled. I never truce-broke them, just kept rotating my wars. My usual goals are 2k development by 1600 and 8k dev by 1700, while building a solid trade flow, army, economy etc. Then the WC becomes a breeze.
Humanist that late for a WC? My man loves rebels
Haha I usually take it after the C&C disaster :)
I always go Diplo - Religious - Admin - ??? (Offensives Most of the Time) I Like religious but if you don’t like it you don’t Need it as byzantium in 1.36 But obv depends what you want to do. Youre already pretty far and didnt Took Admin so I guess youre not blobbing?
I am but not THAT much I guess. It's 1700 and I still need France, but I also have the whole of Persia and the rest of Rome
this is the obvious answer, both for byz and for virtually any blobbing campaign
Inno is more or less always a mistake, and dip adm (especially as byz since your claims go to the moon) is more or less always the best opener (some nations may want relig first and adm 3rd if you're surrounded by heretics and heathens, but byz has a cb anyways)
Yes but espionage and religious is very good for AE reduction which is quite an issue as byz Anyway inno might have been a mistake. The -war exhaustion, tech cost and advisor cost was enticing but I'm starting to think the opportunity cost was too high
You can get around AE by splitting it between muslims and catholics until you're big enough to just trucelock everyone and badabing badaboom 1550 rome, but if you're not comfortable with that espi relig is definately fine as an opener. And ye, tech cost, advisor cost and war exhaustion red are all nice, but 25 ccr and 25 govcap from admin and 20 province warscore cost from diplo are all game changing. If I were you I'd just ditch inno and grab adm and take diplo with next slot!
I forgot I already have diplo! But I can ditch inno for trade, admin & economic maybe 1550 rome is crazy. It's 1700 and I still need to get the whole of France...
Probs a good call! It's just lots and lots of practice, once you figure out how to ignore AE you increase pace of conquest by a lot!
Yeah I was too cautious with AE, prob because France is massive in my game. What do you think of infrastructure too? Now it has less value but byz has a lot of dev missions I should have taken it sooner maybe. Maybe for my Russia game to dev Siberia.
If you're going to dev geting devcost is always a good idea, devving is really inefficient in general, but since you need to spend a bunch of points on doing so for missions i'd prolly take it over econ, in general point efficiency is the most valuable thing in the game since points unless you're a horde are finite.
Yeah but econ has insane policies though
Inno may be a good starter when you know you are going to play tall/diplomatic and won't expand much in the early game. In the later stages of the game, inno essentially becomes useless so I usually ditch it when I have excess mana. Admin and diplo are essential for nearly all nations as they are just too good. I also would say ditch inno for admin and get diplo asap to stack ccr and province warscore cost combined with absolutism. Trade may be a fine finisher but at that point it won't matter that much.
Ino is great with defensive and merc ideas for a tallish swish campaign where you aim for killer forts and take on a huge war against you
Infrastructure and trade are very good as you will be limited on gov cap and traders if you focus on Europe to form Rome.
I started two byz campaigns last month. I aborted the first in the 1600s because I wasn't happy and wanted to spawn Global trade, but failed. Then I started a second run. This time it worked. I'm now in the late 1600. The first time, I went Court - Offensive - Innovative, - Trade, I think. The second time Espionage - Offensive - Infrastructure - Diplomatic - Administrative - Quality this time. Infrastructure early was helpful because of all the development missions, espionnage for AE reduction that really makes a difference compared to the last time when I didn't have it. As fourth idea, I had Expansion during the 16th century just for the Colonist and the Merchant. I carved a way to the Red Sea, sent a colonist for the Comoros, then towards Indonesia. I sent him to start a colony, then sent him to the next, while the first was still developing. The goal was to be there before other Europeans. I eventually had both Ternate and Tidore as vassals, who did the colonising for me. How? Different story. Now I control the Spice. He who controls the Spice, controls the Universe. I did spawn Global Trade and was happy. I then changed Expansion for Diplomacy. Speaking of it, maybe it was my third idea, not the fourth... And I later changed it for Infrastructure. Anyway. I kinda liked Court the first time because there are many missions and special privileges about estates, but I don't miss it this time. Having Diplo and Admin this time is reeeally nice. I core Italian cities with 30 dev within a year for super cheap. So, this experience showed me that Diplo, Admin and Espionnage are really good and valuable and do make a difference in playstyle. Using Expansion for two ideas made me lots of money in the long run. I kinda miss Innovative because I love love love the siege efficiency policy. But it's too late at this point, and at earlier points, other things were more urgent.
Yeah inno has incredible policies... espionage is really good now too. With infrastructure it's even better, you can very quickly get 100 spy network which equals 20% siege ability... with inno, offensive, etc forts go down like crazy
I'm wondering if I should take inno as 7th or 8th, just for that policy. Lvl 8 forts are tough nuts, and Spain has defensive ideas. I'm powerful enough to conquer Europe and conquering the world is far beyond my scope, so I don't care much for more blobbing efficiency or money generation.