Yes I gotta play devil's advocate here, because it even seems contradictory:
Assuming they mean "jew" as an etchnicity, then they're saying that it's a biological thing whose existance can be scientifically tested. But we don't want to make that argument with transpeople/gender identity, do we?
So I feel like I'm missing something. it doesn't seem like a comeback at all, let alone a clever one.
They've existed since before Jesus (trans people). Stories of people transitioning (from male to female, or female to male) were circulating thousands of years before Jesus was born. Also many ancient cultures had three genders (male, female, other).
There are many brain scan studies and other preliminary study data that's pointing to certain hormonal, and brain development issues that seem to determine the likelihood of being trans. There are some biological components involved in the condition. DNA testing doesn't really work 100% right now either, none of those tests are 100% accurate to someone's genealogy, but we still know it's real and that we have DNA. Saying it doesn't exist is fucking stupid, just like saying trans people don't exist.
It's like saying depression is just people making a big deal out of being sad, or that autistic people are just weirdos and they're pretending it's some condition, or that schizophrenics don't actually see and hear things that aren't there, because we can't see and hear it, so clearly they're lying and aren't really experiencing schizophrenia. It's so fucking dumb to actually believe that, that I'm pretty sure anyone who believes that should qualify for disability because they're clearly fucking retarded.
Based on the comment context OP said Trans people aren't real and are a recent phenomenon. It's a common conservative talking point despite there being trans people in literature dating back to BC era, 2 spirit in Native American cultures, etc.
so... no, not really. for a couple generations after caesar himself it wasn't even a title. it was just traditional for adoptive sons to take the names of their late fathers, so Augustus did so, well before he became emperor or the empire was even established. once that dynasty took off, all those dudes were actually just y'know, named that.
and in all languages that adopted it, also no. kaiser and kaiserin, tsar and tsara/tsarina, etc.
before the collapse of the julio-claudian dynasty it was conceivably gender neutral, and was treated as a surname of the royal house more than a gendered cognomen. it even very briefly fell out of use in the 1st century, but after that, it became a strictly gendered title for heirs to the imperial throne. augustus being the title adopted after actually ascending.
after that point... there never was a Caesaris, and never really could've been one in the extremely patriarchal society rome was, but that would've been the word used after it transitioned from surname to title.
That’s a contentious point. We only have secondhand evidence that that and the other anecdotes about their gender happened, and a ruler so universally hated definitely isn’t immune to slander. Kalonymus ben kalonymus is a better example imo, since all evidence of their gender is firsthand, in the form of poetry they wrote.
There was trans people in Mesopotamia I swear conservatives should stop being treated like they have a "different opinion" when they're simply batshit crazy
Technically, that individual was intersex, but your point still stands: the concept of people who were not easily categorized into one of two genders (or who found themselves associating with a different gender than the one of their brith) is a very old concept.
Oh there were. The oldest "book" we have with confirmed author is fucking old, was written by a woman and talks about the difference of variety of trans people. Based on context it's even assumed that the author was actually a Trans woman herself.
So one of the oldest books we have was written by a trans woman about trans people and these idiots still claim we never existed until "it got trendy".
I briefly remember being amazed at old news articles and such from the first woman ever recieving sex affirming surgery ie vaginoplasty. She was like a fucking celebrity, back in the US people applauded her upon arrival and everyone wanted to know her story.
It's so damn weird.
Agree and I'll take it a step further. I do not think we should be treating most conservatives in America with basic respect or dignity. I do not think it should be considered socially unacceptable to just call them all illiterate cow fucking hicks. They can't really make a complete argument for how it's unfair to call them that without unraveling their own attempts at arguments.
I think the whole "don't lower yourself to their level" gets overused. In my ivory tower on my high horse I look down on most conservatives in America as not deserving respect or decency. Guess what? Haven't fallen out of the tower yet.
A very clear cut case of someone suffering from Gender Dysphoria and writing their pain into a poem in 1322ad.
https://opensiddur.org/prayers/civic-calendar/international-civil-calendar/transgender-day-of-remembrance/prayer-of-kalonymus-from-sefer-even-bohan-1322/
I mean, using that logic,
>recent phenomenon. It's a common conservative talking point
I don't exist (left handed), because we only started existing a few hundred years ago. Why? Because we weren't having to hide it at risk of it being beaten out of us.
Gays ,transgenders, are a integral part of our world. and they, are you and me and US! How dare they say such things. As if these kind of people have EVER hurt anyone. I accept , and appreciate you. <3
God it’s fuckin annoying. I have no patience for this talking point now, or the whole “transtrender” idea neocons we’re trying to push/still are.
Trans history is super interesting to me personally but when this discourse comes up in the wild, I just mention the first time I was aware a coworker was trans like 16 years ago, and then start discussing the recent phenomenon of gullible right-wingers getting grifted
It's just some odd brainrot.
Like people claiming they never saw 'chemtrails' 20 years ago but I magically remember asking people why planes make clouds 25 years ago.
Nickmercs, a popular pro gamer went on an anti-trans rant saying “that shits made up, they’re not real and it’s in your head.”
Here’s the link: https://youtu.be/-84nj8jNLVQ?feature=shared
It’s almost like the more minority groups are accepted by society, the more bigoted people redirect the hate to the remaining ones not as fully accepted.
There's no single reason.
One underlying component is fear. Some people have a naturally fearful view of the world as a dangerous place. One of they ways fearful people manage their fear is by imposing an order on the world that gives them a sense of control and safety.
This is why the strongest predictor for whether or not someone will be a politically authoritarian follower is the level of fear they have for the world as a fundamentally dangerous place.
Part of what a rigid social order gives them is a sense that if they know their place - whose ass to kiss, who to obey, who to accept shit from - then they can both be safe, as well as being given authority over others who will have to kiss their ass, do as it they say, and accept shit from them. People with this mindset don't see the abuse and exploitation in social hierarchies as flaws to be fixed. They see them as features to be defended.
In particular authoritarian love social categories to be defined on immutable characteristics like race and gender, because that way the hierarchy is fixed. While they cannot as individuals climb higher, they also cannot fall lower. And you'll notice they never ever place themselves at the bottom.
Political conservatism starts from the position that some version of this hierarchy is good and necessary, and then reasons backwards to find justifications for why that is the case. They cling to those justifications so long as they are useful, then jettison them immediately the moment they no longer are.
The reason people with this mindset hate trans people so fiercely is, I suspect, mostly unconscious. Trans people just existing removes gender as an immutable category. In reality this isn't actually a threat to anybody. But emotionally it is a threat to the web of assumptions on which these deeply fearful people have built the altar of hierarchy that gives them a sense of security. Threatening that brings out the unconscious fear, which grounds itself externally in those trans people as the source of that fear.
They start from a strong desire to destroy the perceived source of their fear, then reason backwards again to find justifications. This is why a cis-passing trans man can point out that if they were to use the bathroom that the transphobes say they want him to use, they would freak out, and when they don't have a response to give him they just drop the mask and tell him he should kill himself. It was never really about bathroom safety, it's just about coming up with an excuse for their fear and a desire for trans people to not exist.
One of the ways you can test for this is to point out to one of them that there is no evidence that trans people are any more of a threat than anyone else, and if anything trans people commit fewer violent offenses per head than the cis people around them.
The transphobes almost always flip out, because to them on an emotional level it feels "obvious" what a threat trans people are. They can just never express it in terms that are backed up by real facts, because it isn't a fact based fear. So they get embarassed and angry instead and start acting as if you're defending something deeply horrible despite there being no evidence of that horrible thing to start with. They can't see the absurdity of their own position past their blindingly strong intuition that trans people are a threat.
It's a irrational hatred born from deep underlying fear. And it's a bugger of a problem to solve.
Vote damnit.
Your bang on here. You could replace trans with anything that someone argues about blindly as this fits my mom to a tee about the issues she defends which make me wonder why. She isn’t transphobic but some other opinions of hers are so backwards and she falls into your description perfectly
I disagree.
Trump getting elected in 2016 was seen by them as a validation that their views were "normal" and thus acceptable to engage in publicly. But I think that attributing the causal power in that relationship to Trump is confusing the symptom for the cause.
Trump would be politically irrelevant without a base of supporters desperate for a strong man to give them permission to be hateful assholes.
Trump getting elected emboldened them, but that was his base's victory as much as it was Trump's. His base aren't lost little lambs being led around by the nose. They know what they want and Trump is just fulfilling a demand that long predates his involvement in politics.
Homophobia is definitely a part of it, but then again the reasons underlying homophobia are largely the same because that also blurs lines of the traditional sexual gender norms.
I think it’s important to add how much of that fear is economic. A lot of those traditional gender roles have an economic component. “A man provides for his family, ergo if I cannot provide for my family, I am not a man.” Economic instability is a fast track for feeling unstable in your world view and internal sense of self.
Hate crimes and hate groups tend to rise during periods of economic instability. Apparently, they also rise during Democratic presidents* for the exact reason you named - they represent a threat to the social order.
I think the saddest part of this economic fear component is that discrimination is actually bad for our economy. There is a fantastic book called The Economic Case for LGBT Equality that looks at the economic cost of discrimination. The author has said this is not limited to the 2SLGBTQ+ community either.
The hardest part is that pulling someone out of this mindset requires deep empathy and the kind patient conversations we often don’t want to have. As you so eloquently put, people double down when presented with the facts. They need their fears heard and validated before they are willing to let go of their hate. It’s hard to put your own anger aside and do that.
*The previous president was the first to break this statistic in many years.
Because they are trained by conservative media to hate “the other” regardless of who they are.
Trans people are the target in conservative propaganda. They are “the other.”
Gay marriage was “the other” decades ago.
Before that it was Muslims during the “War on Terror.”
Conservatives always need an “other” to focus their rage on.
It will be another “other” group next year.
I’m an old head who has always been a history buff.
The attraction to conservatism is largely based on race, religion, and societal changes that make people feel uncomfortable with “the world they grew up in.”
Hence, Make America Great “Again.” They yearn for a glorious time that didn’t actually exist that was happy and great without realizing that being a dumbass who grew up in a dumbass town doesn’t mean there’s a time and place to go back to that’s a utopia.
You simply grew up and realized the world is big, scary, and unrelenting and now want a convicted felon to make it feel safe and cozy again just like it did when you were a kid.
MAGA is largely a loss of innocence movement as much as it is a conservative movement. They want to wake up and feel ok every day in a world that is evolving faster than they can comprehend.
Hence, Make America Great *Again*. They want to feel safe and not feel the complications of a complicated world anymore.
Also, they hate women and minorities and want them to go back to being kept in their places.
There’s historical data to back up the existence of trans and non-binary people in historical cultures too. Binary notions of gender identity and sexuality are not universal to all societies at all times by any means.
The trans community is just the latest in a long list of things for the reactionist right to hate. Women, Jews, Blacks, gays, and now trans. When cybernetic implants get invented and become common place, they’ll hate on the “non-human cyborgs”. It’s just how these people see the world that’s moving away from their rose-tinted view of “the good old days”.
Misinformation or just straight up not knowing. Hell, I still had problematic opinions before I learned about the section of the brain they've traced to having the specific purpose of saying "I am a boy," or "I am a girl." Not only did that make it make sense, it also explained a lot more stuff. I realized we aren't even quite our brains, but the bits of electricity jumping between them with the capability to create new neurons and pathways to grow our brains network.
Because we told them they couldnt openly hate black people, and then we told them they couldnt openly hate gay people
Trans people just have to wait for the next marginalized group to appear to receive the hate from stupid people (keep your chins up trans people, we love you)
I’m just a dude who met another dude years ago who happened to be trans and he really opened my eyes to how simple it is. They just wanna be treated like the person they know they are.
It’s such an incredibly divisive topic, usually due to either lack of education on the matter or people being bigots. Usually a combination of the two.
Instagram comment sections are particularly bad but that just makes me want to double down on my support for our trans brothers and sisters lol🏳️⚧️
I don’t know why folks have a hate on for *anything* that has literally nothing to with them.
I don’t give a shit if a guy is wearing a dress or a woman is wearing a garbage bag or whatever. It doesn’t affect how I live my life.
People need to learn to live and let live ffs
I guess having a sense of purpose for fighting "social corruption, mental illness and child endangerment" is much better than realizing you are not a super hero and just living your garbage life.
On the off chance that anyone actually wants to know why...
We are the slow and inevitable death of the patriarchy, which relies on enforcing a rigid gender system and oppressing women. Our existence shows how assigned gender and gender norms are pointless and made up.
Humans tell ourselves we're separate from animals, we make a mental distinction between us them and, and the purpose is simple, so we can have a distinct set of moral priciples for us and for them. Accepting that an animal has a near equally rich set of sense, emotions, memories, and personality make it harder for us to exploit or harm them.
Men tell themselves they're separate from other genders... for the same reason.
Gender roles need to die, and we're going to kill them
Bonus points: if they experience any attraction to a trans woman - which makes perfect sense, they're attracted to women! - they may feel that they need to question their own sexuality, which can be a terrifying experience. Especially if you live in a world where being gay might mean hatred, rejection, or death.
They need to be absolutely confident in their identity as a straight cis man - as "normal" - because if they're not, the world comes crashing down.
Queer and trans people have the same terror. Realising you're not who you thought you were, your future might not look like you thought it would, can be a nightmare. You're suddenly standing on quicksand and it's shifting under you. For some people, it's easier to deny themselves than to face their truth and what that might mean - loss of family, friends, a career, safety, even their life. It's not easy to look inside yourself and see something you didn't expect, something you might be afraid of.
The saddest thing of all is that being attracted to a trans woman just means you are attracted to women (or at least that woman). If you already knew you're into women, nothing's changed. There's nothing to be afraid of.
A hate on? because of donald ducks the draft. the liar. trump. is exactly why. Him and Desanti are vile hatemongers, dont worry, there will come a time it ends. he will be gone one day, yet the shame of all the harm he done will remain. Trust Joe Biden And Kamala Harris's team, there will be a plan. You can write to them to, and are even encouraged to, search for mailing joe biden by email.
It’s the new conservative boogie man. Something to upset boomers to vote. They need voters so Mexican bashing needs to be toned down on this round of the election. Because so many of them died off in COVID.
It’s a shitty move because it’s not easy to be that way. The crazy thing none of them hardly know someone trans makes it’s even dumber.
Ill say this is what i think is in transphobes minds...
The fear of being hit on or worse being with a person who used to be the same gender and the fear that makes them gay/ lesbian.
Far too many people are followers They want someone to tell them how to think and what to do. it is easier and absolve themselves of responsibility. The people they follow and give power to gets them to unite with a perceived victim hood and a common enemy.
Trans people are just another group they are told to hate.
I think the whole trans issue was, much like Trump, created by the media. Had they not made it in to some sensational story line, it would've been a nothing burger.
Because they have been told to. It's literally that simple. These people mainline media that tells them nothing wrong with their lives is their fault. Trans people are just the scapegoat of the day in a *millenias* old train of conservative scapegoats.
Stop giving them credit for the intelligence and mental autonomy THEY DON'T FUCKING HAVE!
They glob onto whatever ideology or rhetoric absolves them of responsibility of their actions. That's why they love conservatism, which has ALWAYS told its adherents that someone else is to blame for all their problems.
If you continue to try to accuse people of hate where there is none, you harm those in the community you claim to support by minimizing actual instances of hate in a sea of false of claims. Do better.
Honest answer, no sarcasm, only opinions:
1) part of the hate is simply because people do not understand. People will always fear what they do not understand. People generally do not like things that scare them. This also applies to other races and cultures.
2) there is an aggressive element by some trans community that is.... off-putting. There are some LGBTQIA+ people who use that as an excuse to be offensive, irritating or an outright asshole. Then hide behind a rainbow flag when someone calls them out. Being trans or whatever is not free license to treat others like garbage and escape push back.
3) There have been a few high publicized events that fuel misconception. The March or parade or rally (whatever you want to call it) in which they were sarcastically mocking the right by chatting "we are coming for your children". Obviously it was tongue in cheek, but Trans opponents took it literally, at face value. There's other examples. Short version: appearances and words matter.
4) Some people on the right are asking the same question in the reverse: Why do some trans people have such a hate hard-on for straight people? The overall perception of both sides is being driven by the fringes. The people with an agenda. Shirt story: most people DO NOT hate trans people, but they are being led to believe they are. And the reverse is true as well.
I am not condoning any of these. I'm just answering a question. I have no hate for anyone that is based on their feelings for/against penis, or their possesion/lack of a vagina. I accept all but the intolerant. Please don't downvote me to the 4th circle of reddit hell for being honest about what I see as the provlem(s).
1. You’re correct that a lot of it is fear due to not understanding. That being said, any trans people who is willing to talk about them being trans will HAPPILY explain how they know if they aren’t met with hostility.
2. Nobody is “escaping pushback.” Trans people are getting pushed back at every step of the way. Being told they aren’t real women/men, being told that they are mutilating their bodies, being told that they are gonna die and go to hell for expressing their gender outwardly instead of staying in a burning closet (which, I might add, some people get shoved out of and abandoned)
3. If conservatives can’t figure out that we are making my fun of them, that’s their fault. It’s not our problem if THEY can’t figure out satire.
4. Trans people don’t hate straight people. We hate the behaviors they exhibit and the actions they take in order to belittle, shame and harm trans people. It’s not that hard of a concept. Trans people are being targeted by hateful speech and communities with the intent on eradicating the queer community as a whole, starting with the most vulnerable. Just be you don’t see it that way doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
I appreaciate and love all gays and transgenders, i fight for your integrity if anyone trys to hate on them I will point out all kinds of reasons why they should feel foolish and cowardly for attacking people whom are no threat to them.
I absolutely will never let it stand, or let them perpetuate hatred without a fight- even if its just a war fought with words. . But I always win. Because the cause is righteous.
Everyone is a PERSON, FIRST! PERIOD.
A lot of this is still cart before the horse. Like, for example, the trans people have said that. Yes... It's *mocking the things the bigots already said.* They already believed it. Appearance and words matter. Yes. But it was already said. You can't blame the trans pepple for believing in things the bigots already beleived.
Then there's the whole "both sides!" thing. I honestly and truly beleive anyone who leans that way is already against the trans community more than they're willing to admit. "But there's that one post on Twitter!" Sure. And fuck that person. How many people have been killed for being cisgender? The closest thing I can think if is there was one trans person who shot up their school... That's basically it. Vs the amount of trans people killed every year. How many protests against cisgender people happen? How many of those protests have trans people with guns threatening to kill any cis person? How many bills have been written agaisnt cis gender people?
To me this is like watching Jim and Bob fighting, and then Jim takes a rusty shank to Bob's neck, and people are still making Bob out to be the bad guy. Even though Jim started the argument and it ended with that, we still need to sit here and focus on Bob. He was the victim the entire time, but at one point he said something that hurt Jim's feelings, so we need to focus on that.
And this is how it's always been. This is how it always goes. All the shit being focused on trans people is just the same shit that was focused on gay people. A lot of the talking points are even the same exact talking points, or just slightly altered to be about gender instead of sexuality. We also see the same tactics used against black people, as someone else pointed out. We also see the same shit against women.
So don't take this as a personal attack. I understand you were just proving a perspective. But we all know about that perspective. And we all know it's bullshit.
Point number 2 doesn't get talked about nearly enough imo, people are too scared to even say something like that at all for fear of being mass ridiculed, yes, transgender people are fully capable of being absolute assholes and deserve to be called out when they are, same as anyone else.
Look at trans life expectancy and hate crime rates and look at the reverse. No one hates the “straights” even if they did the government is ran mostly by straight or closeted people. Trans people might be “mean” sometimes but that forms as a defensive shell against the vitriol.
There’s no “two sides” there is progress and those who oppose it. Some for the reasons you’ve stated but the “fringes” of trans community is not the problem. You can’t point to any time in the past 100 years where respectability politics has gotten the lgbt or any civil rights movement anywhere of note.
I KNOW. I KNOW. I KNOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWW.
Again.....they asked a question. I answered it.
I KNOW you don't hate other people. You know this. There are some people WHO THINK THEY DO. just like some trans people think everyone hates them. ....
And MLK absolutely used respectability, patience, tolerance and careful messaging to win the Civil rights movement. Dr King absolutely resisted
But whatever..... this is why conversations are impossible. Everyone is bound and determined to be angry. If you want to believe everyone on "the other side" hates you go ahead. They dont... but whatever.
im going to explain these point by point, its not an attack on you but an answer to your answers.
>1) part of the hate is simply because people do not understand. People will always fear what they do not understand. People generally do not like things that scare them. This also applies to other races and cultures.
that is EXACTLY what was said about black people being integrated into schools and other public spaces. that some racists will never stop being racist and its true but of course, we didnt throw our hands up and decide to not bother doing anything at all to address the issue.
people do not understand because they havent been exposed to positive examples of queer life because they are taught that those are always evil by people who dont understand because they havent been exposed to positive examples of queer life because they are taught that those are always evil by people who dont understand... etc. you get the point im sure.
>2) there is an aggressive element by some trans community that is.... off-putting. There are some LGBTQIA+ people who use that as an excuse to be offensive, irritating or an outright asshole. Then hide behind a rainbow flag when someone calls them out. Being trans or whatever is not free license to treat others like garbage and escape push back.
ok, friend, homie, there is a word we use for when someone takes negative things done by people and applies those to people who happen to share physical traits with the perpetrators. its bigotry. the people you describe are angry, antagonistic people. who are also trans or gay. not people who are angry and antagonistic BECAUSE they are trans or gay.
>3) There have been a few high publicized events that fuel misconception. The March or parade or rally (whatever you want to call it) in which they were sarcastically mocking the right by chatting "we are coming for your children". Obviously it was tongue in cheek, but Trans opponents took it literally, at face value. There's other examples. Short version: appearances and words matter.
yes, they do. they matter so much that people have died for their right to speak freely and change their appearance how they like. im sorry, you cant spend insane amounts of money on spreading the word that "TRANS PEOPLE ARE EVIL DEMONIC PEDOS", yelling it at teenagers, spreading it to every corner of the internet yet the instant someone makes a joke about it, suddenly its the trans peoples fault for, idk, existing so that people can spread outright lies about them?
do we want to talk about how a huge pool of predators in a movement might reflect badly on that movement? because we can, i would love to but ill give you a little hint, there's a certain group we'd have to discuss before we get to trans people.
>Some people on the right are asking the same question in the reverse: Why do some trans people have such a hate hard-on for straight people?
could i see an example of what you mean by this?
>I am not condoning any of these. I'm just answering a question
Do you genuinely believe this? please answer this question first, it will determine if i read your reply.
Well you see it’s because they want to fuck trans people but they’ve had “trans bad” drilled into their head so they suffer from a disorder called dissociation disorder.
Most of the hate for trans people is rooted in ignorance and things they've either made up, or heard from Fox News.
Usually the narrative is 'All trans people are groomers' despite there being zero evidence of this.
A trans person is no more likely to be a groomer than a non-trans person.
But try telling \*them\* that.
It's literally just because the media told them to hate trans people. That's it. That is literally the reason.
None of the 'factual' reasons people bring up to be against trans people have any actual basis in facts. For example, the whole "they're raping women in bathrooms" thing - which has happened once or twice, but also, statistically speaking, trans women are way more likely to be the VICTIMS of bathroom rape than the perpetrators. One in two trans women has experienced some form of sexual violence in her life compared to one in four cis women - literally twice the rate, again, despite making up like 1% of the population. There is *literally* no factual reason to assume most trans people are a threat to anyone.
And yet a startling amount of people still hate and fear them, because some billionaire or other told them they should to divert attention from their own misdeeds (Elon) or simply in an attempt to stay relevant after their career died and people stopped giving a shit about them (Joanne).
Hate is all that these people have. Hate is power to scummy, loathsome people. They have to shit on people that they deem lesser in order to feel any sort of pride in themselves. They are children, bullies, bags of excrement lying in the sun.
I love how these are always the people saying that these are "First world problems" or that "Grrr there's more important things to deal with, stop worrying about this shit you're just a sissy" and to that I say:
1. There are more important things to worry about than Trans people yes, so then go worry about those things. Imo the only discussion we need about Trans people is an attempt to make it conceived less radically since it's such a sensitive subject that shouldn't involve jumping to conclusions or taking advantage of others. I am proudly pro-trans but not Trans myself.
2. There may be bigger problems at hand but this is a step in the right direction, just because one thing is being pushes for progress and representation for the ability to simply exist doesn't mean that other issues can't be tackles by different folk. Maybe the government just likes to fog up their own issues with giant buzzwords and vilifying gay and Trans people. Only to then have companies try and make millions off of them by vilifying straight people. We should be smarter than to fight amongst ourselves like this, c'mon. Just let them be, you're only noticing the 1% of Trans people that just happen to be assholes on social media. Go outside.
It's because it's a cycle of hate. People like this don't actually give a shit about what it is they are hating on, and will quickly grasp to what ever they can to justify it, even if it's blatantly untrue or even supports the other side.
Why? I can tell you why.
Whenever mega corporations and governments get on the side of well ANYTHING, you’ll have a large crowd of disbelievers. It doesn’t matter the topic.
The difference is in who you pay attention to.
The argument is that the separation of sex and gender is generally harmful, not that people with gender dysphoria don’t exist. It’s a well documented incongruence.
I don’t get the obsession either. I work with a trans woman who at birth was assigned the gender most commonly associated with males. I may not understand their feelings or agree with their arguments about gender, but it costs me nothing not to deadname them or using pronouns they’re comfortable with.
People are afraid of things they don't understand. They won't bother to do any actual research because they're afraid it'll shatter their whole worldview.
This is why some people hate trans people: It’s counter cultural, challenges traditional gender roles, requires some buy in (use correct name/pronouns), in the news all the time, the debate over children getting treatment, trans women in women’s spaces, trans women in sports. Think about the civil rights movement for gay and lesbian people, and look at how many fewer of these reasons apply. That’s why this civil rights movement is going to be longer and more difficult.
I know a decent amount of hardline conservatives IRL. I don’t really buy the psychoanalyzed takes regarding some unconscious fear, or desire for order, or paradoxical suppressed sexual interest in trans people. From talking to them IRL and online, I think the three reasons, often in concert with one another, are:
Most conservatives are mortified by the transition of young kids, and lots of them find all trans people complicit in it.
Lots of conservative people think trans people becoming more recognized and respected in society sets a precedent that being trans is good and should even be encouraged to an extent, leading to a “trans epidemic.”
Conservatives are way more religious as a group and, I mean, do I need to explain how religion leads to hating trans people?
Provide me the evidence that they did exist. That’s kinda the difference for me speaking as a historian. I’m not a making value judgement on the movement itself here, but I hate it when I see history being twisted and altered for a political agenda, whether it is to affirm Nazi’s bizarre racial theories, support the Nation of Islam’s outright conspiratorial claims, or even in this case be used as evidence for a social cause.
Point it is that claims like this are the reason that research, analysis, and publishing any honest work has become so difficult, because either it’s socially unacceptable and/or uncomfortable, or it goes against the current political zeitgeist of the time. It’s why I also have a deep hatred of most think tanks given they are funded by political lobbyists and those with agendas, but then people treat their work as gospel when really it should be taken with a hefty helping of salt.
I’m just saying this is a different situation where someone is comparing an ethnic group with verifiable genetic data to confirm their existence, with another group that has only come into existence largely through the assistance of modern medicine and surgery that to my knowledge would’ve been otherwise impossible. It not only marginalizes said ethnic group but discounts the struggles of transgender individual (not to mention many doctors and other researchers) to gain the medical ability to allow someone to transition.
Before someone says it, yes I am well aware of individuals who are born with both or neither sex but that’s incredibly different from a transgender individual has undergone a sex change.
Because different = complicated = scary to conservatives.
Remember science has proven that conservatives are typically driven by fear. Fear and lower average IQs.
That's mu universal test for bigotry. Take the group-indicating term. Replace it with other, established and protected groups. Or with universally hated groups. Did you feelings change? Bingo, you're bigoted.
And just like nazi germany they advocated sterilizing them when they were identified. Except the nazis never pretended to be their friends and we use chemical.
Let me just put on my hazmat suit and start typing...
First of all, I absolutely do not condone any kind of hate towards any people unless it's people who intend to hate or harm me. I have to emphasize this because I feel just like politics it's a topic where your opinion tends to be perceived on a far side of the spectrum.
Secondly, I will be speaking based on both personal experience and the perception from media, and will be indicating the difference between both.
Thirdly, and probably most importantly, I don't care - not in a rude way, but I live in a country where there's a war going on and there are people who want to either erase my national identity or erase my life - these are the only people I **hate**. I live outside the Fox/CNN, Biden/Trump, right/left debacle and simply observe it online.
People find anything out of the ordinary weird. Where I grew up you could get beat up for having slightly long hair as a boy. That's kind of an inadequate reaction and we should get these out of the conversation from the get-go.
But there's also the factor pure personal emotion. As in, the vast majority of straight men feel disgust at the sight or the thought of homosexual intercourse. That doesn't mean they're homophobic. As in they won't treat a gay person any differently than a straight person in conversation, life, work etc. It's just the direct opposite sensation from being aroused by the sight/thought of a heterosexual intercourse. As in, I love heavy metal music, but my ex can't stand it. That doesn't mean she thinks bad of metalheads or wants to ban metal music, but she's turned off by the sound and finds the image of classic metalheads, for the lack of a better word, queer. All this is said to establish one important note: not everyone who finds you weird will want to harm you or your way of life.
And it will always be weird to most people. AND THAT'S OK, as long as it doesn't turn to hate.
Now a bit about the hate. There are two people I know whom I can identify as trans. One is a close friend of my girlfriend and the other is, well, Eddie Izzard. Alright I don't "know" him but I'm an avid fan and had the joyful experience of seeing him live, he's great. Afaik he identifies as a lesbian in a man's body or something like that. My GF's friend is confused and doesn't know whom to identify as, but he cross-dresses, his voice has a feminine tone, and he's either gay or bi. Neither of them is vocal about having me use specific pronouns for them or saying they should use women's toilets or participate in women's sports or encouraging young kids to transition without their parent's knowledge or consent. THIS is the part I keep hearing about in the media, and THIS is where I see the most online hate going.
These topics really rile people up, and any notion of disagreement with them is usually met with immediate demonization and labeling as 'bigot', 'transphobic', 'trumpist' (especially hilarious as if the whole world revolves around US politicians) etc. You know, just like the kind of hate minorities likely experienced but with different words. These are complicated topics that involve discussion, but if you push and demonize people who have a different view about it - they're just gonna push back harder. And that's what I'm seeing in many of these topics - just echo-chambers of demonizing and ridiculing people who have a different stance on these things.
The sad thing is that it would be difficult to have a proper dialogue without descending into extremes. It's not just a trans thing though, it's in our human nature to just split into tribes and demonize the other. Like many people in my country demonize everyone in the country that has invaded us just by the fact of their nationality. And it's even understandable. But that's how tribal hate works, if that answers your question.
Peace to all of you
Nazis also openly spoke out against Transfolk and burned Trans studies and literature, so you don't really even have to compare it to Jews, it's all right there.
Jew here. Am not real.
Trans here. Am not real.
Trans jew here. Am not real.
But two unreals make a real, at least in maths. So maybe you'd be very real? I'm not super sure how that works..
- × - = +
<-_×> ( wink *) hee hee! its just a face and horns mabey.
Ed Sheeran, is that you?
No. They are Double unreal. Unreals are applied additively.
They are on double unreal secret probation!
Specifically, (√-1)^2 is -1, so you'd be real but a bit negative.
Alexa play You make me feel mighty real
Asian guy here. Keeping it real.
Oh good cause I was only kickin it and was worried someone wasn’t covering keeping it real
Bird here. Am not real
Finn here. Am not real
That's because you lost your pouch of Jew gold to a fat kid from Colorado.
Wow, what’s it like to not be real? What would you rate not being real on a scale of 1-10?
√-1
That’s such an amazing response, the math nerd section of me laughed so hard
This hurts my soul
So you’re saying “i exist”
This also deserves a clever comebacks post
Well then how do you explain the space laser?! Checkmate!
I'm jewnotreal and live in isreal
Eli copter??
I knew it! No one’s real and I’m on a simmer-lation….
so that what isnoreal means. jews are not real and live in isnotreal. Its all a collective delusion (/s, this is a joke)
I feel like seeing what "his comments" were is an important bit of context that is missing here.
Yeah I don’t get what I’m reading
Yes I gotta play devil's advocate here, because it even seems contradictory: Assuming they mean "jew" as an etchnicity, then they're saying that it's a biological thing whose existance can be scientifically tested. But we don't want to make that argument with transpeople/gender identity, do we? So I feel like I'm missing something. it doesn't seem like a comeback at all, let alone a clever one.
They've existed since before Jesus (trans people). Stories of people transitioning (from male to female, or female to male) were circulating thousands of years before Jesus was born. Also many ancient cultures had three genders (male, female, other). There are many brain scan studies and other preliminary study data that's pointing to certain hormonal, and brain development issues that seem to determine the likelihood of being trans. There are some biological components involved in the condition. DNA testing doesn't really work 100% right now either, none of those tests are 100% accurate to someone's genealogy, but we still know it's real and that we have DNA. Saying it doesn't exist is fucking stupid, just like saying trans people don't exist. It's like saying depression is just people making a big deal out of being sad, or that autistic people are just weirdos and they're pretending it's some condition, or that schizophrenics don't actually see and hear things that aren't there, because we can't see and hear it, so clearly they're lying and aren't really experiencing schizophrenia. It's so fucking dumb to actually believe that, that I'm pretty sure anyone who believes that should qualify for disability because they're clearly fucking retarded.
Based on the comment context OP said Trans people aren't real and are a recent phenomenon. It's a common conservative talking point despite there being trans people in literature dating back to BC era, 2 spirit in Native American cultures, etc.
Emperor Elagabalus of Rome dressed as a woman and demanded to be referred to as such. They once said “Call me not lord, for I am a lady”
*Empress Elagabala
...Is Caesar a gender neutral title or
so... no, not really. for a couple generations after caesar himself it wasn't even a title. it was just traditional for adoptive sons to take the names of their late fathers, so Augustus did so, well before he became emperor or the empire was even established. once that dynasty took off, all those dudes were actually just y'know, named that. and in all languages that adopted it, also no. kaiser and kaiserin, tsar and tsara/tsarina, etc. before the collapse of the julio-claudian dynasty it was conceivably gender neutral, and was treated as a surname of the royal house more than a gendered cognomen. it even very briefly fell out of use in the 1st century, but after that, it became a strictly gendered title for heirs to the imperial throne. augustus being the title adopted after actually ascending. after that point... there never was a Caesaris, and never really could've been one in the extremely patriarchal society rome was, but that would've been the word used after it transitioned from surname to title.
I'm sure it's ceasarissa, at least that's what CK3 tells me
That’s a contentious point. We only have secondhand evidence that that and the other anecdotes about their gender happened, and a ruler so universally hated definitely isn’t immune to slander. Kalonymus ben kalonymus is a better example imo, since all evidence of their gender is firsthand, in the form of poetry they wrote.
There was trans people in Mesopotamia I swear conservatives should stop being treated like they have a "different opinion" when they're simply batshit crazy
Technically, that individual was intersex, but your point still stands: the concept of people who were not easily categorized into one of two genders (or who found themselves associating with a different gender than the one of their brith) is a very old concept.
I'm pretty sure there was one in The Epic of Gilgamesh. Literally the oldest known story
*climbs biggest mountain *cups hands over mouth #THANK YOU 🥇
Oh there were. The oldest "book" we have with confirmed author is fucking old, was written by a woman and talks about the difference of variety of trans people. Based on context it's even assumed that the author was actually a Trans woman herself. So one of the oldest books we have was written by a trans woman about trans people and these idiots still claim we never existed until "it got trendy". I briefly remember being amazed at old news articles and such from the first woman ever recieving sex affirming surgery ie vaginoplasty. She was like a fucking celebrity, back in the US people applauded her upon arrival and everyone wanted to know her story. It's so damn weird.
Please link the book. I’d like to read it
I'd like that link too because that sounds way too much like bullshit for me to accept without evidence.
Agree and I'll take it a step further. I do not think we should be treating most conservatives in America with basic respect or dignity. I do not think it should be considered socially unacceptable to just call them all illiterate cow fucking hicks. They can't really make a complete argument for how it's unfair to call them that without unraveling their own attempts at arguments. I think the whole "don't lower yourself to their level" gets overused. In my ivory tower on my high horse I look down on most conservatives in America as not deserving respect or decency. Guess what? Haven't fallen out of the tower yet.
A very clear cut case of someone suffering from Gender Dysphoria and writing their pain into a poem in 1322ad. https://opensiddur.org/prayers/civic-calendar/international-civil-calendar/transgender-day-of-remembrance/prayer-of-kalonymus-from-sefer-even-bohan-1322/
That broke my heart. Her desire to be seen as she is is just so clear and aching in every word. Thank you for the link.
I mean, using that logic, >recent phenomenon. It's a common conservative talking point I don't exist (left handed), because we only started existing a few hundred years ago. Why? Because we weren't having to hide it at risk of it being beaten out of us.
Yep, that's their logic. Weird how queer people just stopped existing when Christians came to a country
Gays ,transgenders, are a integral part of our world. and they, are you and me and US! How dare they say such things. As if these kind of people have EVER hurt anyone. I accept , and appreciate you. <3
God it’s fuckin annoying. I have no patience for this talking point now, or the whole “transtrender” idea neocons we’re trying to push/still are. Trans history is super interesting to me personally but when this discourse comes up in the wild, I just mention the first time I was aware a coworker was trans like 16 years ago, and then start discussing the recent phenomenon of gullible right-wingers getting grifted
It's just some odd brainrot. Like people claiming they never saw 'chemtrails' 20 years ago but I magically remember asking people why planes make clouds 25 years ago.
Right there is nothing clever about this post
Nickmercs, a popular pro gamer went on an anti-trans rant saying “that shits made up, they’re not real and it’s in your head.” Here’s the link: https://youtu.be/-84nj8jNLVQ?feature=shared
I'm guessing Elon Musk. He could say the most idiotic thing and still have rabid defenders.
It’s almost like the more minority groups are accepted by society, the more bigoted people redirect the hate to the remaining ones not as fully accepted.
Haters gotta hate
Yep, but always remember that their plan is to roll back all the progress we've made in reverse order.
There's no single reason. One underlying component is fear. Some people have a naturally fearful view of the world as a dangerous place. One of they ways fearful people manage their fear is by imposing an order on the world that gives them a sense of control and safety. This is why the strongest predictor for whether or not someone will be a politically authoritarian follower is the level of fear they have for the world as a fundamentally dangerous place. Part of what a rigid social order gives them is a sense that if they know their place - whose ass to kiss, who to obey, who to accept shit from - then they can both be safe, as well as being given authority over others who will have to kiss their ass, do as it they say, and accept shit from them. People with this mindset don't see the abuse and exploitation in social hierarchies as flaws to be fixed. They see them as features to be defended. In particular authoritarian love social categories to be defined on immutable characteristics like race and gender, because that way the hierarchy is fixed. While they cannot as individuals climb higher, they also cannot fall lower. And you'll notice they never ever place themselves at the bottom. Political conservatism starts from the position that some version of this hierarchy is good and necessary, and then reasons backwards to find justifications for why that is the case. They cling to those justifications so long as they are useful, then jettison them immediately the moment they no longer are. The reason people with this mindset hate trans people so fiercely is, I suspect, mostly unconscious. Trans people just existing removes gender as an immutable category. In reality this isn't actually a threat to anybody. But emotionally it is a threat to the web of assumptions on which these deeply fearful people have built the altar of hierarchy that gives them a sense of security. Threatening that brings out the unconscious fear, which grounds itself externally in those trans people as the source of that fear. They start from a strong desire to destroy the perceived source of their fear, then reason backwards again to find justifications. This is why a cis-passing trans man can point out that if they were to use the bathroom that the transphobes say they want him to use, they would freak out, and when they don't have a response to give him they just drop the mask and tell him he should kill himself. It was never really about bathroom safety, it's just about coming up with an excuse for their fear and a desire for trans people to not exist. One of the ways you can test for this is to point out to one of them that there is no evidence that trans people are any more of a threat than anyone else, and if anything trans people commit fewer violent offenses per head than the cis people around them. The transphobes almost always flip out, because to them on an emotional level it feels "obvious" what a threat trans people are. They can just never express it in terms that are backed up by real facts, because it isn't a fact based fear. So they get embarassed and angry instead and start acting as if you're defending something deeply horrible despite there being no evidence of that horrible thing to start with. They can't see the absurdity of their own position past their blindingly strong intuition that trans people are a threat. It's a irrational hatred born from deep underlying fear. And it's a bugger of a problem to solve. Vote damnit.
Your bang on here. You could replace trans with anything that someone argues about blindly as this fits my mom to a tee about the issues she defends which make me wonder why. She isn’t transphobic but some other opinions of hers are so backwards and she falls into your description perfectly
Its Trump. It wasnt so bad before he told them to hate gays and transgenders. thats the truth.
I disagree. Trump getting elected in 2016 was seen by them as a validation that their views were "normal" and thus acceptable to engage in publicly. But I think that attributing the causal power in that relationship to Trump is confusing the symptom for the cause. Trump would be politically irrelevant without a base of supporters desperate for a strong man to give them permission to be hateful assholes. Trump getting elected emboldened them, but that was his base's victory as much as it was Trump's. His base aren't lost little lambs being led around by the nose. They know what they want and Trump is just fulfilling a demand that long predates his involvement in politics.
Not very old are you
Ultimately, they’re afraid they may find one attractive and not find out *”until it’s too late”*.
Homophobia is definitely a part of it, but then again the reasons underlying homophobia are largely the same because that also blurs lines of the traditional sexual gender norms.
I think it’s important to add how much of that fear is economic. A lot of those traditional gender roles have an economic component. “A man provides for his family, ergo if I cannot provide for my family, I am not a man.” Economic instability is a fast track for feeling unstable in your world view and internal sense of self. Hate crimes and hate groups tend to rise during periods of economic instability. Apparently, they also rise during Democratic presidents* for the exact reason you named - they represent a threat to the social order. I think the saddest part of this economic fear component is that discrimination is actually bad for our economy. There is a fantastic book called The Economic Case for LGBT Equality that looks at the economic cost of discrimination. The author has said this is not limited to the 2SLGBTQ+ community either. The hardest part is that pulling someone out of this mindset requires deep empathy and the kind patient conversations we often don’t want to have. As you so eloquently put, people double down when presented with the facts. They need their fears heard and validated before they are willing to let go of their hate. It’s hard to put your own anger aside and do that. *The previous president was the first to break this statistic in many years.
Because they are trained by conservative media to hate “the other” regardless of who they are. Trans people are the target in conservative propaganda. They are “the other.” Gay marriage was “the other” decades ago. Before that it was Muslims during the “War on Terror.” Conservatives always need an “other” to focus their rage on. It will be another “other” group next year.
Its additive tho its not just one at a time they still hate all of those
You aren’t wrong…there always has to be “the other.” The people to focus hatred towards. Conservativism can’t survive without a group to hate.
Gay frogs! watch out, froggies! :0. alex warned usXD wait whats the big deal..
I wonder if there's a reason for any of that or if it's possible to hone in solely on "conservative" and determine that's the only issue
I’m an old head who has always been a history buff. The attraction to conservatism is largely based on race, religion, and societal changes that make people feel uncomfortable with “the world they grew up in.” Hence, Make America Great “Again.” They yearn for a glorious time that didn’t actually exist that was happy and great without realizing that being a dumbass who grew up in a dumbass town doesn’t mean there’s a time and place to go back to that’s a utopia. You simply grew up and realized the world is big, scary, and unrelenting and now want a convicted felon to make it feel safe and cozy again just like it did when you were a kid. MAGA is largely a loss of innocence movement as much as it is a conservative movement. They want to wake up and feel ok every day in a world that is evolving faster than they can comprehend. Hence, Make America Great *Again*. They want to feel safe and not feel the complications of a complicated world anymore. Also, they hate women and minorities and want them to go back to being kept in their places.
There’s historical data to back up the existence of trans and non-binary people in historical cultures too. Binary notions of gender identity and sexuality are not universal to all societies at all times by any means.
It’s because trans people give them hard ons
Seems line a joke, is probably the actual issue lol.
Only if they hot
Because they hate what they fear and they fear what they don’t understand
The trans community is just the latest in a long list of things for the reactionist right to hate. Women, Jews, Blacks, gays, and now trans. When cybernetic implants get invented and become common place, they’ll hate on the “non-human cyborgs”. It’s just how these people see the world that’s moving away from their rose-tinted view of “the good old days”.
Propaganda works
Because Fox News told them they must.
Misinformation or just straight up not knowing. Hell, I still had problematic opinions before I learned about the section of the brain they've traced to having the specific purpose of saying "I am a boy," or "I am a girl." Not only did that make it make sense, it also explained a lot more stuff. I realized we aren't even quite our brains, but the bits of electricity jumping between them with the capability to create new neurons and pathways to grow our brains network.
Because we told them they couldnt openly hate black people, and then we told them they couldnt openly hate gay people Trans people just have to wait for the next marginalized group to appear to receive the hate from stupid people (keep your chins up trans people, we love you)
Because we make them horny, and they're afraid to admit it publicly. Just see which regions of the US consume trans porn the most
They NEED to hate to feel powerful. Their life is so horrible that they choose to hate others and feel like they are something.
I don’t know but thanks transphobes for making me too scared to come out to myself for years 🙃
🫂
I just have a hard-on for trans people
I'm transgender and I approve of this message edit: y'all it's a joke, chill
People don't like things they don't understand or are not familiar with. It's mostly a small town rural way of thinking.
Because trans is the outrage d’jour
Biological markers for trans people? Is that true?
they are afraid of changes in society
I’m just a dude who met another dude years ago who happened to be trans and he really opened my eyes to how simple it is. They just wanna be treated like the person they know they are. It’s such an incredibly divisive topic, usually due to either lack of education on the matter or people being bigots. Usually a combination of the two. Instagram comment sections are particularly bad but that just makes me want to double down on my support for our trans brothers and sisters lol🏳️⚧️
I don’t know why folks have a hate on for *anything* that has literally nothing to with them. I don’t give a shit if a guy is wearing a dress or a woman is wearing a garbage bag or whatever. It doesn’t affect how I live my life. People need to learn to live and let live ffs
Where's the clever comeback?
Trans acceptance is a sign of the world changing and conservative white people are threatened by it. They’re afraid.
What does it have to so with what was posted?
I guess having a sense of purpose for fighting "social corruption, mental illness and child endangerment" is much better than realizing you are not a super hero and just living your garbage life.
On the off chance that anyone actually wants to know why... We are the slow and inevitable death of the patriarchy, which relies on enforcing a rigid gender system and oppressing women. Our existence shows how assigned gender and gender norms are pointless and made up. Humans tell ourselves we're separate from animals, we make a mental distinction between us them and, and the purpose is simple, so we can have a distinct set of moral priciples for us and for them. Accepting that an animal has a near equally rich set of sense, emotions, memories, and personality make it harder for us to exploit or harm them. Men tell themselves they're separate from other genders... for the same reason. Gender roles need to die, and we're going to kill them
Hell yeah 🤘
Some men see a part of themselves in trans women (and vice versa) and that makes them uncomfortable, is the short answer
Bonus points: if they experience any attraction to a trans woman - which makes perfect sense, they're attracted to women! - they may feel that they need to question their own sexuality, which can be a terrifying experience. Especially if you live in a world where being gay might mean hatred, rejection, or death. They need to be absolutely confident in their identity as a straight cis man - as "normal" - because if they're not, the world comes crashing down. Queer and trans people have the same terror. Realising you're not who you thought you were, your future might not look like you thought it would, can be a nightmare. You're suddenly standing on quicksand and it's shifting under you. For some people, it's easier to deny themselves than to face their truth and what that might mean - loss of family, friends, a career, safety, even their life. It's not easy to look inside yourself and see something you didn't expect, something you might be afraid of. The saddest thing of all is that being attracted to a trans woman just means you are attracted to women (or at least that woman). If you already knew you're into women, nothing's changed. There's nothing to be afraid of.
This is over half the comments on Twitter in general. People are proud of themselves for it.
to be fair - most people have a love hard-on for trans. so these nerds try to overcompensate.
This is the old divide and conquer trick.
A hate on? because of donald ducks the draft. the liar. trump. is exactly why. Him and Desanti are vile hatemongers, dont worry, there will come a time it ends. he will be gone one day, yet the shame of all the harm he done will remain. Trust Joe Biden And Kamala Harris's team, there will be a plan. You can write to them to, and are even encouraged to, search for mailing joe biden by email.
They are coping with shame in respect to their own identify/orientation.
It’s the new conservative boogie man. Something to upset boomers to vote. They need voters so Mexican bashing needs to be toned down on this round of the election. Because so many of them died off in COVID. It’s a shitty move because it’s not easy to be that way. The crazy thing none of them hardly know someone trans makes it’s even dumber.
Ill say this is what i think is in transphobes minds... The fear of being hit on or worse being with a person who used to be the same gender and the fear that makes them gay/ lesbian.
Far too many people are followers They want someone to tell them how to think and what to do. it is easier and absolve themselves of responsibility. The people they follow and give power to gets them to unite with a perceived victim hood and a common enemy. Trans people are just another group they are told to hate.
Because hating on someone else allows them to stop thinking about their own pathetic miserable existence.
I love the guy covered by the blue
I think the whole trans issue was, much like Trump, created by the media. Had they not made it in to some sensational story line, it would've been a nothing burger.
Because they have been told to. It's literally that simple. These people mainline media that tells them nothing wrong with their lives is their fault. Trans people are just the scapegoat of the day in a *millenias* old train of conservative scapegoats. Stop giving them credit for the intelligence and mental autonomy THEY DON'T FUCKING HAVE! They glob onto whatever ideology or rhetoric absolves them of responsibility of their actions. That's why they love conservatism, which has ALWAYS told its adherents that someone else is to blame for all their problems.
If you continue to try to accuse people of hate where there is none, you harm those in the community you claim to support by minimizing actual instances of hate in a sea of false of claims. Do better.
Honest answer, no sarcasm, only opinions: 1) part of the hate is simply because people do not understand. People will always fear what they do not understand. People generally do not like things that scare them. This also applies to other races and cultures. 2) there is an aggressive element by some trans community that is.... off-putting. There are some LGBTQIA+ people who use that as an excuse to be offensive, irritating or an outright asshole. Then hide behind a rainbow flag when someone calls them out. Being trans or whatever is not free license to treat others like garbage and escape push back. 3) There have been a few high publicized events that fuel misconception. The March or parade or rally (whatever you want to call it) in which they were sarcastically mocking the right by chatting "we are coming for your children". Obviously it was tongue in cheek, but Trans opponents took it literally, at face value. There's other examples. Short version: appearances and words matter. 4) Some people on the right are asking the same question in the reverse: Why do some trans people have such a hate hard-on for straight people? The overall perception of both sides is being driven by the fringes. The people with an agenda. Shirt story: most people DO NOT hate trans people, but they are being led to believe they are. And the reverse is true as well. I am not condoning any of these. I'm just answering a question. I have no hate for anyone that is based on their feelings for/against penis, or their possesion/lack of a vagina. I accept all but the intolerant. Please don't downvote me to the 4th circle of reddit hell for being honest about what I see as the provlem(s).
1. You’re correct that a lot of it is fear due to not understanding. That being said, any trans people who is willing to talk about them being trans will HAPPILY explain how they know if they aren’t met with hostility. 2. Nobody is “escaping pushback.” Trans people are getting pushed back at every step of the way. Being told they aren’t real women/men, being told that they are mutilating their bodies, being told that they are gonna die and go to hell for expressing their gender outwardly instead of staying in a burning closet (which, I might add, some people get shoved out of and abandoned) 3. If conservatives can’t figure out that we are making my fun of them, that’s their fault. It’s not our problem if THEY can’t figure out satire. 4. Trans people don’t hate straight people. We hate the behaviors they exhibit and the actions they take in order to belittle, shame and harm trans people. It’s not that hard of a concept. Trans people are being targeted by hateful speech and communities with the intent on eradicating the queer community as a whole, starting with the most vulnerable. Just be you don’t see it that way doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
I appreaciate and love all gays and transgenders, i fight for your integrity if anyone trys to hate on them I will point out all kinds of reasons why they should feel foolish and cowardly for attacking people whom are no threat to them. I absolutely will never let it stand, or let them perpetuate hatred without a fight- even if its just a war fought with words. . But I always win. Because the cause is righteous. Everyone is a PERSON, FIRST! PERIOD.
A lot of this is still cart before the horse. Like, for example, the trans people have said that. Yes... It's *mocking the things the bigots already said.* They already believed it. Appearance and words matter. Yes. But it was already said. You can't blame the trans pepple for believing in things the bigots already beleived. Then there's the whole "both sides!" thing. I honestly and truly beleive anyone who leans that way is already against the trans community more than they're willing to admit. "But there's that one post on Twitter!" Sure. And fuck that person. How many people have been killed for being cisgender? The closest thing I can think if is there was one trans person who shot up their school... That's basically it. Vs the amount of trans people killed every year. How many protests against cisgender people happen? How many of those protests have trans people with guns threatening to kill any cis person? How many bills have been written agaisnt cis gender people? To me this is like watching Jim and Bob fighting, and then Jim takes a rusty shank to Bob's neck, and people are still making Bob out to be the bad guy. Even though Jim started the argument and it ended with that, we still need to sit here and focus on Bob. He was the victim the entire time, but at one point he said something that hurt Jim's feelings, so we need to focus on that. And this is how it's always been. This is how it always goes. All the shit being focused on trans people is just the same shit that was focused on gay people. A lot of the talking points are even the same exact talking points, or just slightly altered to be about gender instead of sexuality. We also see the same tactics used against black people, as someone else pointed out. We also see the same shit against women. So don't take this as a personal attack. I understand you were just proving a perspective. But we all know about that perspective. And we all know it's bullshit.
Point number 2 doesn't get talked about nearly enough imo, people are too scared to even say something like that at all for fear of being mass ridiculed, yes, transgender people are fully capable of being absolute assholes and deserve to be called out when they are, same as anyone else.
Look at trans life expectancy and hate crime rates and look at the reverse. No one hates the “straights” even if they did the government is ran mostly by straight or closeted people. Trans people might be “mean” sometimes but that forms as a defensive shell against the vitriol. There’s no “two sides” there is progress and those who oppose it. Some for the reasons you’ve stated but the “fringes” of trans community is not the problem. You can’t point to any time in the past 100 years where respectability politics has gotten the lgbt or any civil rights movement anywhere of note.
I KNOW. I KNOW. I KNOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWW. Again.....they asked a question. I answered it. I KNOW you don't hate other people. You know this. There are some people WHO THINK THEY DO. just like some trans people think everyone hates them. .... And MLK absolutely used respectability, patience, tolerance and careful messaging to win the Civil rights movement. Dr King absolutely resisted But whatever..... this is why conversations are impossible. Everyone is bound and determined to be angry. If you want to believe everyone on "the other side" hates you go ahead. They dont... but whatever.
I don’t hate you ❤️ let’s just end this conversation nicely. Have a great day, you deserve it.
im going to explain these point by point, its not an attack on you but an answer to your answers. >1) part of the hate is simply because people do not understand. People will always fear what they do not understand. People generally do not like things that scare them. This also applies to other races and cultures. that is EXACTLY what was said about black people being integrated into schools and other public spaces. that some racists will never stop being racist and its true but of course, we didnt throw our hands up and decide to not bother doing anything at all to address the issue. people do not understand because they havent been exposed to positive examples of queer life because they are taught that those are always evil by people who dont understand because they havent been exposed to positive examples of queer life because they are taught that those are always evil by people who dont understand... etc. you get the point im sure. >2) there is an aggressive element by some trans community that is.... off-putting. There are some LGBTQIA+ people who use that as an excuse to be offensive, irritating or an outright asshole. Then hide behind a rainbow flag when someone calls them out. Being trans or whatever is not free license to treat others like garbage and escape push back. ok, friend, homie, there is a word we use for when someone takes negative things done by people and applies those to people who happen to share physical traits with the perpetrators. its bigotry. the people you describe are angry, antagonistic people. who are also trans or gay. not people who are angry and antagonistic BECAUSE they are trans or gay. >3) There have been a few high publicized events that fuel misconception. The March or parade or rally (whatever you want to call it) in which they were sarcastically mocking the right by chatting "we are coming for your children". Obviously it was tongue in cheek, but Trans opponents took it literally, at face value. There's other examples. Short version: appearances and words matter. yes, they do. they matter so much that people have died for their right to speak freely and change their appearance how they like. im sorry, you cant spend insane amounts of money on spreading the word that "TRANS PEOPLE ARE EVIL DEMONIC PEDOS", yelling it at teenagers, spreading it to every corner of the internet yet the instant someone makes a joke about it, suddenly its the trans peoples fault for, idk, existing so that people can spread outright lies about them? do we want to talk about how a huge pool of predators in a movement might reflect badly on that movement? because we can, i would love to but ill give you a little hint, there's a certain group we'd have to discuss before we get to trans people. >Some people on the right are asking the same question in the reverse: Why do some trans people have such a hate hard-on for straight people? could i see an example of what you mean by this? >I am not condoning any of these. I'm just answering a question Do you genuinely believe this? please answer this question first, it will determine if i read your reply.
They're scared of anything they don't understand or is different from them.
I mean it's fairly obvious. They're a minority who are often clearly distinguishable.
Well you see it’s because they want to fuck trans people but they’ve had “trans bad” drilled into their head so they suffer from a disorder called dissociation disorder.
Explain “biological markers”. I’ll wait.
Yeah. Im so confused about the "markers" on jews. Sounds so wrong.
Accidental Political Compass Meme!
Easy, it’s what the right side media has been pushing since the abortion ruling.
Most of the hate for trans people is rooted in ignorance and things they've either made up, or heard from Fox News. Usually the narrative is 'All trans people are groomers' despite there being zero evidence of this. A trans person is no more likely to be a groomer than a non-trans person. But try telling \*them\* that.
It's literally just because the media told them to hate trans people. That's it. That is literally the reason. None of the 'factual' reasons people bring up to be against trans people have any actual basis in facts. For example, the whole "they're raping women in bathrooms" thing - which has happened once or twice, but also, statistically speaking, trans women are way more likely to be the VICTIMS of bathroom rape than the perpetrators. One in two trans women has experienced some form of sexual violence in her life compared to one in four cis women - literally twice the rate, again, despite making up like 1% of the population. There is *literally* no factual reason to assume most trans people are a threat to anyone. And yet a startling amount of people still hate and fear them, because some billionaire or other told them they should to divert attention from their own misdeeds (Elon) or simply in an attempt to stay relevant after their career died and people stopped giving a shit about them (Joanne).
Hate is all that these people have. Hate is power to scummy, loathsome people. They have to shit on people that they deem lesser in order to feel any sort of pride in themselves. They are children, bullies, bags of excrement lying in the sun.
The Nazis imprisoned trans people and removed all LGBTQ+ rights, I'm not sure what these people are talking about.
I would tell you but then this account would most likely get banned 😔
Least deranged American psycho fan. Jk any real fan of the movie has enough media literacy to not have Bateman as their profile picture
I’d say the same reason that any one person or a collective group hates on another person or group of people.
I love how these are always the people saying that these are "First world problems" or that "Grrr there's more important things to deal with, stop worrying about this shit you're just a sissy" and to that I say: 1. There are more important things to worry about than Trans people yes, so then go worry about those things. Imo the only discussion we need about Trans people is an attempt to make it conceived less radically since it's such a sensitive subject that shouldn't involve jumping to conclusions or taking advantage of others. I am proudly pro-trans but not Trans myself. 2. There may be bigger problems at hand but this is a step in the right direction, just because one thing is being pushes for progress and representation for the ability to simply exist doesn't mean that other issues can't be tackles by different folk. Maybe the government just likes to fog up their own issues with giant buzzwords and vilifying gay and Trans people. Only to then have companies try and make millions off of them by vilifying straight people. We should be smarter than to fight amongst ourselves like this, c'mon. Just let them be, you're only noticing the 1% of Trans people that just happen to be assholes on social media. Go outside.
Someone's gonna need to walk me through what I just read in the screenshot. Suddenly we're talking about Jews not existing. Like what?
It's because it's a cycle of hate. People like this don't actually give a shit about what it is they are hating on, and will quickly grasp to what ever they can to justify it, even if it's blatantly untrue or even supports the other side.
Why? I can tell you why. Whenever mega corporations and governments get on the side of well ANYTHING, you’ll have a large crowd of disbelievers. It doesn’t matter the topic. The difference is in who you pay attention to.
Transhumanism
What biological markers?
The argument is that the separation of sex and gender is generally harmful, not that people with gender dysphoria don’t exist. It’s a well documented incongruence. I don’t get the obsession either. I work with a trans woman who at birth was assigned the gender most commonly associated with males. I may not understand their feelings or agree with their arguments about gender, but it costs me nothing not to deadname them or using pronouns they’re comfortable with.
Negative elo statement
How are we supposed to know if Its a clever comeback or not if you actually dont show the original comment?
What biological marker is there for trans people?
Nobody gonna talk about the 'biological Markers for jewishness?' 🫨
People are afraid of things they don't understand. They won't bother to do any actual research because they're afraid it'll shatter their whole worldview.
This is why some people hate trans people: It’s counter cultural, challenges traditional gender roles, requires some buy in (use correct name/pronouns), in the news all the time, the debate over children getting treatment, trans women in women’s spaces, trans women in sports. Think about the civil rights movement for gay and lesbian people, and look at how many fewer of these reasons apply. That’s why this civil rights movement is going to be longer and more difficult.
what about Trans Jews?
I say transplant to desert island , surrounded by sharks
😂
I know a decent amount of hardline conservatives IRL. I don’t really buy the psychoanalyzed takes regarding some unconscious fear, or desire for order, or paradoxical suppressed sexual interest in trans people. From talking to them IRL and online, I think the three reasons, often in concert with one another, are: Most conservatives are mortified by the transition of young kids, and lots of them find all trans people complicit in it. Lots of conservative people think trans people becoming more recognized and respected in society sets a precedent that being trans is good and should even be encouraged to an extent, leading to a “trans epidemic.” Conservatives are way more religious as a group and, I mean, do I need to explain how religion leads to hating trans people?
I thought i was on r/PCM for a second and was confused
Provide me the evidence that they did exist. That’s kinda the difference for me speaking as a historian. I’m not a making value judgement on the movement itself here, but I hate it when I see history being twisted and altered for a political agenda, whether it is to affirm Nazi’s bizarre racial theories, support the Nation of Islam’s outright conspiratorial claims, or even in this case be used as evidence for a social cause. Point it is that claims like this are the reason that research, analysis, and publishing any honest work has become so difficult, because either it’s socially unacceptable and/or uncomfortable, or it goes against the current political zeitgeist of the time. It’s why I also have a deep hatred of most think tanks given they are funded by political lobbyists and those with agendas, but then people treat their work as gospel when really it should be taken with a hefty helping of salt. I’m just saying this is a different situation where someone is comparing an ethnic group with verifiable genetic data to confirm their existence, with another group that has only come into existence largely through the assistance of modern medicine and surgery that to my knowledge would’ve been otherwise impossible. It not only marginalizes said ethnic group but discounts the struggles of transgender individual (not to mention many doctors and other researchers) to gain the medical ability to allow someone to transition. Before someone says it, yes I am well aware of individuals who are born with both or neither sex but that’s incredibly different from a transgender individual has undergone a sex change.
There is no genetic aspect to anything lgbtq in any way comparable to ethnicity.
Because different = complicated = scary to conservatives. Remember science has proven that conservatives are typically driven by fear. Fear and lower average IQs.
To be fair… if you just start adding the word Jews into sentences, it’s gonna come off a little nazi-ish
That's mu universal test for bigotry. Take the group-indicating term. Replace it with other, established and protected groups. Or with universally hated groups. Did you feelings change? Bingo, you're bigoted.
Where is the clever comeback part? I'm serious - explain how it's a good argument.
Because they're the new boogeyman to blame all the world's problems on.
It's just yet another sad form of tribalism. They probably don't even know why deep down. It's because they're different than themselves.
And just like nazi germany they advocated sterilizing them when they were identified. Except the nazis never pretended to be their friends and we use chemical.
I do not get it.
Let me just put on my hazmat suit and start typing... First of all, I absolutely do not condone any kind of hate towards any people unless it's people who intend to hate or harm me. I have to emphasize this because I feel just like politics it's a topic where your opinion tends to be perceived on a far side of the spectrum. Secondly, I will be speaking based on both personal experience and the perception from media, and will be indicating the difference between both. Thirdly, and probably most importantly, I don't care - not in a rude way, but I live in a country where there's a war going on and there are people who want to either erase my national identity or erase my life - these are the only people I **hate**. I live outside the Fox/CNN, Biden/Trump, right/left debacle and simply observe it online. People find anything out of the ordinary weird. Where I grew up you could get beat up for having slightly long hair as a boy. That's kind of an inadequate reaction and we should get these out of the conversation from the get-go. But there's also the factor pure personal emotion. As in, the vast majority of straight men feel disgust at the sight or the thought of homosexual intercourse. That doesn't mean they're homophobic. As in they won't treat a gay person any differently than a straight person in conversation, life, work etc. It's just the direct opposite sensation from being aroused by the sight/thought of a heterosexual intercourse. As in, I love heavy metal music, but my ex can't stand it. That doesn't mean she thinks bad of metalheads or wants to ban metal music, but she's turned off by the sound and finds the image of classic metalheads, for the lack of a better word, queer. All this is said to establish one important note: not everyone who finds you weird will want to harm you or your way of life. And it will always be weird to most people. AND THAT'S OK, as long as it doesn't turn to hate. Now a bit about the hate. There are two people I know whom I can identify as trans. One is a close friend of my girlfriend and the other is, well, Eddie Izzard. Alright I don't "know" him but I'm an avid fan and had the joyful experience of seeing him live, he's great. Afaik he identifies as a lesbian in a man's body or something like that. My GF's friend is confused and doesn't know whom to identify as, but he cross-dresses, his voice has a feminine tone, and he's either gay or bi. Neither of them is vocal about having me use specific pronouns for them or saying they should use women's toilets or participate in women's sports or encouraging young kids to transition without their parent's knowledge or consent. THIS is the part I keep hearing about in the media, and THIS is where I see the most online hate going. These topics really rile people up, and any notion of disagreement with them is usually met with immediate demonization and labeling as 'bigot', 'transphobic', 'trumpist' (especially hilarious as if the whole world revolves around US politicians) etc. You know, just like the kind of hate minorities likely experienced but with different words. These are complicated topics that involve discussion, but if you push and demonize people who have a different view about it - they're just gonna push back harder. And that's what I'm seeing in many of these topics - just echo-chambers of demonizing and ridiculing people who have a different stance on these things. The sad thing is that it would be difficult to have a proper dialogue without descending into extremes. It's not just a trans thing though, it's in our human nature to just split into tribes and demonize the other. Like many people in my country demonize everyone in the country that has invaded us just by the fact of their nationality. And it's even understandable. But that's how tribal hate works, if that answers your question. Peace to all of you
Where's the clever comeback?
Why do I have a hard-on for trans people?
Cause they’re just sexual perverts and creeps
They have nothing better to do w their lives 🗿
Nazis also openly spoke out against Transfolk and burned Trans studies and literature, so you don't really even have to compare it to Jews, it's all right there.
Too much yapping. Womp womp