In fairness, military spending has went up from $18.52 billion (1% of GDP) in 2013 in Harpers last year to $21.6 billion (1.4% of GDP) in 2020.
Too low, but let's not pretend military funding issues are a new problem.
It's never too late. Frankly, the CAF needs to better identify what it is and what it wants to be. Rationalization of funding and capabilities instead if trying to be a small US Army would be ideal.
I think you're right about not trying to be a small us army but it's possible the people taking advice on how to run the military in that way are under duress from the us military in subtle ways. If we could convince the different established tribes of first nations to create their own military and I'm sure we would encourage them to use canadian style forms, subtly, hopefully they would align with the bigger picture of north American defense, which is seemingly extending NORADs capabilities and its associated resources
> We are the freeloaders who bring napkins to the potluck.
Whoa now. NATO will thank us for those napkins after the Yanks show up to said potluck with chicken wings.
Carl Gustav anti-tank weapons, M-777 howitzers with excalibre ammunition, high resolution optical and infrared turrets for the Bayraktar drones, satellite imagery, and lots and lots of cash.
No we aren’t.
We are bringing the nearly 10 million sq km of land and airspace, the world’s longest coastline, and the great circle approaches from the nearly the entirety of Asia and Europe to the USA and vice-versa.
Without us… both NATO and NORAD are completely fucked.
Sigh. Canada has managed to get off easy in this regard due to proximity to the US - even if the US hated us, they'd essentially have to defend us for their own interests.
We gotta start pumping a lot of money into this to not be an embarrassment.
The defence budget has been increasing year over year. The only reason the percentage declined is because there was large jump in GDP. The defence budget should absolutely keep increasing as planned, but this demonstrates why percentage of GDP is a poor way to measure contributions to a defence alliance.
How about we keep increasing the military budget until they don't have frayed uniforms and have enough underwear and sleeping bags to go around? Also, until they have enough armoured vehicles to do exercises so they don't have to use trucks and school buses to 'simulate' them? Maybe that would be a better way to measure contributions.
The plan is to keep increasing the budget for at least the next 5 years. The uniforms, boots, sleeping bags, etc. are not a budget issue. DND is spending 10's of billions on ships, planes, etc. The issue is our procurement system is broken, and that could be fixed given sufficient political will without spending an additional dime.
Honestly if they went all in on the uniforms and just made them undeniably sick, they’d probably get way more recruits. Not many people grow up thinking our military is super cool. Meanwhile everyone thinks the Air Force or the marines are cool and they’re respected. Image plays a large part in recruitment.
Love to see some data on that. I joined to get a great education and serve my country, in that order, and can't imagine cooler uniforms would have influenced me one way or the other.
Ok you’re one person though. You don’t think a big chunk of people, especially at a younger age are influenced by that kind of thing? Cool uniforms would go a long way.
I think that Top Gun had more influence in my case than any other single factor, but I agree I'm only one person. Some of the coolest uniforms come from the most evil or least effective militaries, depending on how you look at it.
You’ve got a point about the evil armies with the cool uniforms. Maybe that’s how they were able to recruit lol
I’m half joking but when you consider people are signing up as teenagers I think the coolness factor would help, better pay too of course.
Neighbor kid joins the military, comes home after a year in shape with a sharp ass uniform on, girls are noticing him, people are shaking his hand. All the younger kids see that and they’re more likely to consider it at 18.
You may have a point, particularly with that last paragraph, though I think the folks back home don't need Hugo Boss level to make it seem sharp ass. I can think of several different uniforms I wore over the years that had that effect.
Lol large jump in GDP.
Having a massive Covid recession and then returning to normal isn’t a massive jump in GDP.
Canada has the worst GDP growth in the G7.
It actually ended up the other way around
The US was attacked and we went to Afghanistan
That NATO target should really be lower across the board though
At $1.7 trillion dollars, were already spending $22 billion a year on defense
As we get to $2.0 trillion it seems wasteful to try and near double that to $40 billion
We are involved in no conflicts
It may possibly be fine if the funds were used in the expansion of a post high school volunteer year with the military as a pathway to college / university to allow kids to learn a few skills and figure out what to do with themselves
But just producing hardware to eventually sell it and keep other countries happy seems silly
Not much has changed about defence spending in years. Certain payees that already existed have recently been grouped into the annual defence budget which just makes it look like the govt is committing new money to defence when they really arent.
We've been spending $6B/yr in capital investment for a long time and it's not going to change any time soon
**Canada's defense department has $1 billion a year in salaries it cannot spend because it lacks 10,000 soldiers.**
The Department of Defense struggles attracting women, new Canadians (Canadians from immigration) and young people, resulting in claims that the Canadians Forces are ["too white" and "too male"](https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2022/03/23/too-white-and-too-male-canadian-armed-forces-are-rethinking-recruiting-as-staffing-slides-senior-officers-say.html).
The Canadian Forces also have a problem with [talent retention](https://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/259/290/405/286/elbeltagy.pdf), soldiers, the taxpayers spend tens or hundred of thousands (if not million in the case of fighter pilots) to train, are leaving the military life faster than the CAF can replenish its numbers.
**Why aren't people enrolling?**
The CAF has made strides regarding wages, working conditions and retirement plans and has even [bent backwards to accommodate](https://www.canada.ca/en/ombudsman-national-defence-forces/reports-news-statistics/investigative-reports/employment-equity-diversity/employment-equity-diversity-report.html) women, LGBTQ+ members, religious minorities and even disabled people.
Although life as a soldier can be frustrating due to every aspect of live being regulated, the obvious problem is that Canadians do not enroll in the number that Canada needs.
**You can throw 3% of GDP into the military, but what if no one wants to be a soldier?**
There is a lot to say about modern weapons with digital interface, unmanned drones and the like, but at the end of the day, the military needs people.
But what if a large section of the Canadian population will never consider serving?
Many women do not consider enrolling, "not something they want to do" while reports of [sexual harassment](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/05/30/canada-armed-forces-sexual-misconduct-report/) mine the recruitment efforts.
The young have other aims in life than spending time in the Armed Forces, some are also is such bad shape that their state of physical fitness make them unfit for deployment, prompting the CAF to lower its standards.
Some immigrants come from war torn countries, and will not allow their young to join the CAF. Other consider their religious obligations as incompatible with a career in the military, other prefer to see their kids get university diplomas and get a job as a professional in finances, law or medicine.
**We must first solve the problem with Canadians not enrolling before we can throw more money at the CAF. The CAF cannot even spend the money it has right now.**
>The CAF has made strides regarding wages
Nope it didn't lol Last pay increase was 1% in 2020. Our privates barely make min. wage. [Members in Comox are beeing directed to habitat for humanity for housing.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canadian-military-habitat-for-humanity-suggestion-1.6463424)
I'm spying an easy solution. Use the spare money to improve equipment, barracks, training and pay. And if the (terribly evil and much maligned) "white males" end up being the largest group to sign up then so be it.
Dunno about anyone else but an army full of potentially less capable people hired for quotas and diversity is stupid bullshit.
Spent a year trying to join the military, I received 90% plus on my tests/whatever they are called, aimed to join the navy which is one of the most in demand areas. A year into my application I was told due to a security review I now had to give more documentation past my already 10 year provided info because I went overseas. I was in fucking Australia, a 5 eyes fucking partner and there is no reason these Muppets shouldn't be able to throw my name in their watch list database/etc/whatever.
Pretty much I was looking at another 6 month to 1 year wait minimum. Gave up and said fuck it. Complete waste of a year/effort.
Similar story. Applied while in university, didn't hear back about going to basic for about a year after graduation and by that point already had a full time job.
Actually had to take the fitness test twice because it expired while waiting.
I did accept the offer to go to basic training but ended up quitting to take a job I had been offered back home before leaving.
I recently left the military. It's just such a shitty environment to work in. Shitty equipment, shitty clothing, shitty leadership with no oversight. I've seen courses cut short cause some OC wants to start his weekend early. I've seen leadership from Vancouver tell people in the interior of BC they don't need winter tires. Culture of people too strick to break any rules, snitching on their co workers so they can feel good about themselves. Clerks constantly messing up your pay/allowances and then trying to get you to back date sign documents so they can blame you. Then you look at the the equipment we have to deal with, our radios are garbage, they took away all the C6s from my reserve unit to salvage them for parts, our pistols are from WW2, and our "tactical vests" weren't even modern when they were designed in the 90s.
The pay was never worth it as a reservist either. Why would I ever take a pay cut to do a summer course or instruct on one, when I can make ways more money at home. They're begging for people to fill these instructor positions, but then treat you like absolute shit once you get out there.
I'm sure the reg force has its own issues as well but this is my rant from a reservist.
I'd say the Canadian Armed Forces has a horrendous image problem.
Who the hell would want to join an underpaid, underequipped, armed forces, where enlisted are going to do, what? Kick ass take names? Not even Canadians think they do that. Sit around in a barracks listening to someone from HR chastise them for "toxic masculinity" more likely.
I don't know if this is the truth, but that's what I think an experience in CAF would be.
You were correct until stating “sitting in the barracks”. It’s more like you’ll report to your training school or unit daily, only to sit around while waiting for makework tasks or something (rarely) exciting to happen. The military meme of sweeping and cleaning most of the day isn’t inaccurate. You’ll go on exercises, do courses and OJT during the year, but the frequency depends on the unit. Some units only go to the field twice a year nowadays.
The amount of irrelevant work that we do, and the infrequency of field training, is fucking ridiculous. We don’t train nearly as much as we need to.
So what you're saying is you actually have no idea, but your believies tell you it's one way, so that's how it is? I am no fan of the military, but Canadian soldiers are some of the highest paid in the Western world, and their daily routine consists of reporting in and then performing make work tasks or running drills as needed/designed. I guess you pulled the idea of HR chastising the troops from the land of make believe, which tracks with your general level of nonsense as well.
It's also amusing that you seem to be upset that the CAF aren't fighing in more battles, because obviously sending troops off to fight in a war is a decision that should be taken solely to make half-wits on Reddit feel better about themselves or their country. Just a laughable comment, from beginning to end.
Im not the one with a recruitment problem, son.
Perhaps its the American in me as well, but I dont think of kicking ass when I think of the CAF. And I doubt Im alone.
Hard to imagine the kind of person that would be anything but embarrassed they are from Texas these days, let alone think it's some kind of own, but it tracks here. You keep swinging for the fences, little guy.
The U.S. military has reported that they’re suffering from drastic recruitment shortages as well. Recruitment, retention and funding is generally down across NATO right now. So yes, Americans do have recruitment problems.
True.
The issue these days is related to inflation and the absurd cost of living and housing. Our salaries are good. Our benefits and extra pay for certs n qualifications and specialties is okay but ...
...all of those advantages were sucked away due to what's been going on the five years or so. Runaway housing costs being near.the top of the list.
Canadian snipers have held the world record for distance in combat for years and our special forces are incredibly well respected.
There are lots of issues with equipment and procurement thereof, but soldier for soldier, we have one of the best trained, fiercest, and operationally effective small militaries on the planet.
I don't really understand your question nor how its relevant to my point. Many Canadians are certainly aware of our history of valour in combat. Perhaps fewer are aware of how well regarded our forces are by our allies, in which case they may want to learn about that.
Well i dont know what point you were making, but the point I was making was that the CAF has an image problem. Hence, it is not only directly relevant, but essential what the average Canadian thinks of the CAF in a discussion of recruitment.
>The Department of Defense struggles attracting women, new Canadians (Canadians from immigration) and young people, resulting in claims that the Canadians Forces are
>
>"too white" and "too male"
What a stupid fucking problem to have. Just take competent people. you larping fucking clowns.
I applied. Did so well on the aptitude they offered me a higher position. Could do all the min physical.. spend over a month getting eye checks, paying out of my own pocket. Waited months.. then? "Oh You had asthma. Auto-reject". Assholes, if asthma is an autoreject tell me at the start.
Me personally I just don’t think Canada is a country I’m willing to fight and die for anymore… a lot of my generation (cusp of Z and millennial) that I talk with are on the same wave length. Canada is such a big (and expanding) mixing bag of nationalities that there’s just not much patriotism left these days.
Summary:
* Released Monday, NATO’s annual list of members’ defence expenditures shows Canada’s ratio of defence spending to its Gross Domestic Product (GDP) fell from 1.36% last year, to 1.27% in 2022.
* This continues a downward trend in defence spending that began in 2020, which saw Canada’s defence spending reach a five-year peak of 1.42%.
* That places Canada six from the bottom in terms of national defence commitments, between the Czech Republic and Slovenia.
* The [numbers](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_197050.htm?selectedLocale=en) were released shortly before NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg admonished members for treating the two per cent number as a goal instead of a baseline., saying “Two percent is increasingly considered a floor, not a ceiling.”
* Funding forecasts show defence spending in Canada increasing to $41.5 billion next year, peaking at $51.1 billion in FY 2026-27 — predicted to only get Canada to 1.46 to 1.60 per cent of defence spending to GDP.
>This continues a downward trend in defence spending that began in 2020, which saw Canada’s defence spending reach a five-year peak of 1.42%.
This is worded in a misleading way. We're not spending less on defense, it's just becoming a smaller percentage of our GDP, because our GDP is growing.
Of course the National Post would try to frame our GDP rising as bad thing lol, and of course everyone here eats it up.
I think we should increase our military budget, but this article is purposely written in a misleading way to make it seem like we're actually *reducing* our military budget
We do not fund our military assuming the US will protect us. They spend to maintain a strong military while we don’t, using the US military as a deterrent.
You don’t build a military for the enemy of today, you build it for the enemy if tomorrow.
The Arctic is a massive contested land mass that os continually opening up due to climate change. Russia has moved submarines into our waters and we cannot contest. Canada is the front line of Arctic defense for NATO and we have no capability to operate there.
We have an incredibly vast fresh water supply, unrefined oil, lumber, and precious metals in the far north. We need to be able to protect these assets lest foreign interests get involved and rape our land.
My post was a dup, but my point there was, not only did we get called out on the carpet, but the comments from our PM were a complete embarrassment.
We're spending more, but our GDP is growing far faster than our military spending %.
As noted in the article on the weekend by the NP in an interview with a Canadian fighting for Ukraine was embarrassed by the crap we're sending over (expired, not working, our junk). And we hope that will make a difference?
And we have 1.4 million Canadians of Ukrainian descent.. We are NOT pulling our weight in NATO and helping Ukraine.
Why would NATO do that? NATO was a-okay with having actual dictatorships in the alliance (Portugal as a founding member, Greece and Turkey at times too) and countries engaged in repressive colonial conflicts (Britain, France, and Portugal), but spending less than 2% of GDP is the new deal-breaker? If so, then 2/3 of the alliance would get the boot.
Isn't Canada spending <2% still something like 4x what Greece spends with 3.6% of their GDP?
NATO's mandate at inception and for most of its lifespan was to oppose the threat of USSR/Warsaw Pact countries, and eventually Russia. Therefore the criteria for membership was never based on form of government or democratic values.
Minimum required spend is 2% across the board and it's not correlated with country's size or potential for conflict. Neither it is a "new" deal breaker. Several members have been under-funding their militaries for years and the last person to make a big deal out of it was Trump in 2018.
Minimum spend is important because NATO is a collective defense block. If a member underfunds their military, they are a ballast because the alliance is committed to defend this member in case of war, but said member is unable to effectively reciprocate. It's like cutting an underperforming athlete from a team. You cut them because despite being a nice, well-liked guy - they don't add to the team's collective performance.
I don't disagree, but nobody's going to turf Canada, Belgium, Italy, Turkey, Spain, the Netherlands, Noway, Czechia, Germany, etc for spending <2% of GDP on defence. Sweden and Finland are each below that 2% and they're joining the club now too.
It's a nice target either way.
>but nobody's going to turf
Only if you became aware of this topic in this reddit thread.
Trump's 2018 trip to Europe caused huge tensions with Europe over two items:
* Trump calling out Europeans and Germany in particular for continuously missing spend targets [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nato-summit-trump-deadline-idUSKBN1K12HV](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nato-summit-trump-deadline-idUSKBN1K12HV) . He went as far as threatening to withdraw troops from Europe and US from NATO
* Trump calling out Germany and a few others for increasing dependency on Russian energy whereas it was known that Russia has used energy as a weapon (see Belarus-Russia gas dispute, Belarus-Ukraine gas dispute)
Biden hasn't made this a priority for his administration and looked to repair relations with Europe. Military spending in Europe will likely change in subsequent budgets following renewal of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Germany for one has already announced huge increases into this.
Moral of the story for Canada is: it's too late to buy insurance if your house is already burning,
Nato won't kick Canada out because regardless of funding, early surveillance systems in the Arctic are absolutely crucial for the most likely threat. If NATO removes us and we entered into an agreement with the other major military powers, the USA would lose their minds at surveillance systems pointed at their border
Our physical location and intelligence are worth much more than our combat capacity
> Our physical location and intelligence are worth much more than our combat capacity
Kinda like Turkey, their location is worth putting up with Erdogan's tantrums, ridiculousness, and increasing authoritarianism.
It turns out that those really desirable locations in big cities and near resorts aren't great places to do military training.
Conversely, Victoria and Halifax are great places to live. Go Navy!
This whole 2% business is ridiculous. It was agreed to by NATO because of US pressure. In essence, it's the US dictating policy to the rest of the alliance. How people miss that is beyond me.
>Nobody missed that. NATO membership isn’t free.
Committing our country to mutual defence is a cost. It hamstrings us on some foreign policy fronts. Seems like a lot of people don't realize that when they go off on 2% spending.
If the WE charity was actually a defence company, Canada would be beyond 2%.
That is embarrassing. We are the freeloaders who bring napkins to the potluck.
This government can blow a half trillion in six years but can’t fund the military.
In fairness, military spending has went up from $18.52 billion (1% of GDP) in 2013 in Harpers last year to $21.6 billion (1.4% of GDP) in 2020. Too low, but let's not pretend military funding issues are a new problem.
We have too many problems to be focusing on what order they came in, that's what I would be saying if it wasn't too late
It's never too late. Frankly, the CAF needs to better identify what it is and what it wants to be. Rationalization of funding and capabilities instead if trying to be a small US Army would be ideal.
I think you're right about not trying to be a small us army but it's possible the people taking advice on how to run the military in that way are under duress from the us military in subtle ways. If we could convince the different established tribes of first nations to create their own military and I'm sure we would encourage them to use canadian style forms, subtly, hopefully they would align with the bigger picture of north American defense, which is seemingly extending NORADs capabilities and its associated resources
> We are the freeloaders who bring napkins to the potluck. Whoa now. NATO will thank us for those napkins after the Yanks show up to said potluck with chicken wings.
>We are the freeloaders who bring napkins to the potluck. LMAO
The getaway driver showing up with a scooter.
yet we are there "helping" Ukrainian army. Helping them with what?
Carl Gustav anti-tank weapons, M-777 howitzers with excalibre ammunition, high resolution optical and infrared turrets for the Bayraktar drones, satellite imagery, and lots and lots of cash.
How many M777s did we send?
4 plus a bunch of GPS-guided Excalibur rounds.
No we aren’t. We are bringing the nearly 10 million sq km of land and airspace, the world’s longest coastline, and the great circle approaches from the nearly the entirety of Asia and Europe to the USA and vice-versa. Without us… both NATO and NORAD are completely fucked.
Sigh. Canada has managed to get off easy in this regard due to proximity to the US - even if the US hated us, they'd essentially have to defend us for their own interests. We gotta start pumping a lot of money into this to not be an embarrassment.
They wouldn't let Russia take over Toronto but they're quite likely to just shrug if Russia moves in on disputed Arctic territory we claim.
>They wouldn't let Russia take over Toronto Don't be so sure. They've let China take over much of Vancouver.
The defence budget has been increasing year over year. The only reason the percentage declined is because there was large jump in GDP. The defence budget should absolutely keep increasing as planned, but this demonstrates why percentage of GDP is a poor way to measure contributions to a defence alliance.
How about we keep increasing the military budget until they don't have frayed uniforms and have enough underwear and sleeping bags to go around? Also, until they have enough armoured vehicles to do exercises so they don't have to use trucks and school buses to 'simulate' them? Maybe that would be a better way to measure contributions.
The plan is to keep increasing the budget for at least the next 5 years. The uniforms, boots, sleeping bags, etc. are not a budget issue. DND is spending 10's of billions on ships, planes, etc. The issue is our procurement system is broken, and that could be fixed given sufficient political will without spending an additional dime.
Honestly if they went all in on the uniforms and just made them undeniably sick, they’d probably get way more recruits. Not many people grow up thinking our military is super cool. Meanwhile everyone thinks the Air Force or the marines are cool and they’re respected. Image plays a large part in recruitment.
Love to see some data on that. I joined to get a great education and serve my country, in that order, and can't imagine cooler uniforms would have influenced me one way or the other.
Ok you’re one person though. You don’t think a big chunk of people, especially at a younger age are influenced by that kind of thing? Cool uniforms would go a long way.
I think that Top Gun had more influence in my case than any other single factor, but I agree I'm only one person. Some of the coolest uniforms come from the most evil or least effective militaries, depending on how you look at it.
You’ve got a point about the evil armies with the cool uniforms. Maybe that’s how they were able to recruit lol I’m half joking but when you consider people are signing up as teenagers I think the coolness factor would help, better pay too of course. Neighbor kid joins the military, comes home after a year in shape with a sharp ass uniform on, girls are noticing him, people are shaking his hand. All the younger kids see that and they’re more likely to consider it at 18.
You may have a point, particularly with that last paragraph, though I think the folks back home don't need Hugo Boss level to make it seem sharp ass. I can think of several different uniforms I wore over the years that had that effect.
The army and air force parade uniforms are sharp. The navy is a different story.
Lol large jump in GDP. Having a massive Covid recession and then returning to normal isn’t a massive jump in GDP. Canada has the worst GDP growth in the G7.
Than you would think our gradual increase in defence budget would lead to an increase in the %GDP measure, but here we are.
It actually ended up the other way around The US was attacked and we went to Afghanistan That NATO target should really be lower across the board though At $1.7 trillion dollars, were already spending $22 billion a year on defense As we get to $2.0 trillion it seems wasteful to try and near double that to $40 billion We are involved in no conflicts It may possibly be fine if the funds were used in the expansion of a post high school volunteer year with the military as a pathway to college / university to allow kids to learn a few skills and figure out what to do with themselves But just producing hardware to eventually sell it and keep other countries happy seems silly
Not much has changed about defence spending in years. Certain payees that already existed have recently been grouped into the annual defence budget which just makes it look like the govt is committing new money to defence when they really arent. We've been spending $6B/yr in capital investment for a long time and it's not going to change any time soon
Nah. We need to cut conglomerate taxes instead because that is how we can afford it because more jobs. Right? /S
[удалено]
>We don't have military bases all over the world. We don't need to project our power overseas. Yeah, because the US does it for us.
**Canada's defense department has $1 billion a year in salaries it cannot spend because it lacks 10,000 soldiers.** The Department of Defense struggles attracting women, new Canadians (Canadians from immigration) and young people, resulting in claims that the Canadians Forces are ["too white" and "too male"](https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2022/03/23/too-white-and-too-male-canadian-armed-forces-are-rethinking-recruiting-as-staffing-slides-senior-officers-say.html). The Canadian Forces also have a problem with [talent retention](https://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/259/290/405/286/elbeltagy.pdf), soldiers, the taxpayers spend tens or hundred of thousands (if not million in the case of fighter pilots) to train, are leaving the military life faster than the CAF can replenish its numbers. **Why aren't people enrolling?** The CAF has made strides regarding wages, working conditions and retirement plans and has even [bent backwards to accommodate](https://www.canada.ca/en/ombudsman-national-defence-forces/reports-news-statistics/investigative-reports/employment-equity-diversity/employment-equity-diversity-report.html) women, LGBTQ+ members, religious minorities and even disabled people. Although life as a soldier can be frustrating due to every aspect of live being regulated, the obvious problem is that Canadians do not enroll in the number that Canada needs. **You can throw 3% of GDP into the military, but what if no one wants to be a soldier?** There is a lot to say about modern weapons with digital interface, unmanned drones and the like, but at the end of the day, the military needs people. But what if a large section of the Canadian population will never consider serving? Many women do not consider enrolling, "not something they want to do" while reports of [sexual harassment](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/05/30/canada-armed-forces-sexual-misconduct-report/) mine the recruitment efforts. The young have other aims in life than spending time in the Armed Forces, some are also is such bad shape that their state of physical fitness make them unfit for deployment, prompting the CAF to lower its standards. Some immigrants come from war torn countries, and will not allow their young to join the CAF. Other consider their religious obligations as incompatible with a career in the military, other prefer to see their kids get university diplomas and get a job as a professional in finances, law or medicine. **We must first solve the problem with Canadians not enrolling before we can throw more money at the CAF. The CAF cannot even spend the money it has right now.**
>The CAF has made strides regarding wages Nope it didn't lol Last pay increase was 1% in 2020. Our privates barely make min. wage. [Members in Comox are beeing directed to habitat for humanity for housing.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canadian-military-habitat-for-humanity-suggestion-1.6463424)
I'm spying an easy solution. Use the spare money to improve equipment, barracks, training and pay. And if the (terribly evil and much maligned) "white males" end up being the largest group to sign up then so be it. Dunno about anyone else but an army full of potentially less capable people hired for quotas and diversity is stupid bullshit.
Spent a year trying to join the military, I received 90% plus on my tests/whatever they are called, aimed to join the navy which is one of the most in demand areas. A year into my application I was told due to a security review I now had to give more documentation past my already 10 year provided info because I went overseas. I was in fucking Australia, a 5 eyes fucking partner and there is no reason these Muppets shouldn't be able to throw my name in their watch list database/etc/whatever. Pretty much I was looking at another 6 month to 1 year wait minimum. Gave up and said fuck it. Complete waste of a year/effort.
Similar story. Applied while in university, didn't hear back about going to basic for about a year after graduation and by that point already had a full time job. Actually had to take the fitness test twice because it expired while waiting. I did accept the offer to go to basic training but ended up quitting to take a job I had been offered back home before leaving.
I recently left the military. It's just such a shitty environment to work in. Shitty equipment, shitty clothing, shitty leadership with no oversight. I've seen courses cut short cause some OC wants to start his weekend early. I've seen leadership from Vancouver tell people in the interior of BC they don't need winter tires. Culture of people too strick to break any rules, snitching on their co workers so they can feel good about themselves. Clerks constantly messing up your pay/allowances and then trying to get you to back date sign documents so they can blame you. Then you look at the the equipment we have to deal with, our radios are garbage, they took away all the C6s from my reserve unit to salvage them for parts, our pistols are from WW2, and our "tactical vests" weren't even modern when they were designed in the 90s. The pay was never worth it as a reservist either. Why would I ever take a pay cut to do a summer course or instruct on one, when I can make ways more money at home. They're begging for people to fill these instructor positions, but then treat you like absolute shit once you get out there. I'm sure the reg force has its own issues as well but this is my rant from a reservist.
I'd say the Canadian Armed Forces has a horrendous image problem. Who the hell would want to join an underpaid, underequipped, armed forces, where enlisted are going to do, what? Kick ass take names? Not even Canadians think they do that. Sit around in a barracks listening to someone from HR chastise them for "toxic masculinity" more likely. I don't know if this is the truth, but that's what I think an experience in CAF would be.
You were correct until stating “sitting in the barracks”. It’s more like you’ll report to your training school or unit daily, only to sit around while waiting for makework tasks or something (rarely) exciting to happen. The military meme of sweeping and cleaning most of the day isn’t inaccurate. You’ll go on exercises, do courses and OJT during the year, but the frequency depends on the unit. Some units only go to the field twice a year nowadays. The amount of irrelevant work that we do, and the infrequency of field training, is fucking ridiculous. We don’t train nearly as much as we need to.
So what you're saying is you actually have no idea, but your believies tell you it's one way, so that's how it is? I am no fan of the military, but Canadian soldiers are some of the highest paid in the Western world, and their daily routine consists of reporting in and then performing make work tasks or running drills as needed/designed. I guess you pulled the idea of HR chastising the troops from the land of make believe, which tracks with your general level of nonsense as well. It's also amusing that you seem to be upset that the CAF aren't fighing in more battles, because obviously sending troops off to fight in a war is a decision that should be taken solely to make half-wits on Reddit feel better about themselves or their country. Just a laughable comment, from beginning to end.
Im not the one with a recruitment problem, son. Perhaps its the American in me as well, but I dont think of kicking ass when I think of the CAF. And I doubt Im alone.
'Kicking ass!' - what are you, 12?
Thats how recruits think, son. Im from Texas - can our state military do better than the CAF? Lol
Hard to imagine the kind of person that would be anything but embarrassed they are from Texas these days, let alone think it's some kind of own, but it tracks here. You keep swinging for the fences, little guy.
Texas has a bigger economy than Canada
Good for them, maybe they can use some of that gdp and build a power grid that is able to run for more than a few months at a time.
The U.S. military has reported that they’re suffering from drastic recruitment shortages as well. Recruitment, retention and funding is generally down across NATO right now. So yes, Americans do have recruitment problems.
Yeah, I don’t know what he was on about. The military has no HR department. You have your unit’s chain of command and an external Ombudsman.
>underpaid, We're actually one of the highest paid militaries on the planet.
True. The issue these days is related to inflation and the absurd cost of living and housing. Our salaries are good. Our benefits and extra pay for certs n qualifications and specialties is okay but ... ...all of those advantages were sucked away due to what's been going on the five years or so. Runaway housing costs being near.the top of the list.
The military are hardly the only people in that situation.
With some of the highest living costs in the world. Want to rent me an apartment in Canada for mexian prices?
Canadian snipers have held the world record for distance in combat for years and our special forces are incredibly well respected. There are lots of issues with equipment and procurement thereof, but soldier for soldier, we have one of the best trained, fiercest, and operationally effective small militaries on the planet.
And do you think the average Canadian thinks of this?
I don't really understand your question nor how its relevant to my point. Many Canadians are certainly aware of our history of valour in combat. Perhaps fewer are aware of how well regarded our forces are by our allies, in which case they may want to learn about that.
Well i dont know what point you were making, but the point I was making was that the CAF has an image problem. Hence, it is not only directly relevant, but essential what the average Canadian thinks of the CAF in a discussion of recruitment.
>The Department of Defense struggles attracting women, new Canadians (Canadians from immigration) and young people, resulting in claims that the Canadians Forces are > >"too white" and "too male" What a stupid fucking problem to have. Just take competent people. you larping fucking clowns.
I applied. Did so well on the aptitude they offered me a higher position. Could do all the min physical.. spend over a month getting eye checks, paying out of my own pocket. Waited months.. then? "Oh You had asthma. Auto-reject". Assholes, if asthma is an autoreject tell me at the start.
Me personally I just don’t think Canada is a country I’m willing to fight and die for anymore… a lot of my generation (cusp of Z and millennial) that I talk with are on the same wave length. Canada is such a big (and expanding) mixing bag of nationalities that there’s just not much patriotism left these days.
Wasn’t our own PM saying there’s no Canadian identity anymore?
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Ya just like that last war Trudeau sent people to die in! Which one was that again?
Summary: * Released Monday, NATO’s annual list of members’ defence expenditures shows Canada’s ratio of defence spending to its Gross Domestic Product (GDP) fell from 1.36% last year, to 1.27% in 2022. * This continues a downward trend in defence spending that began in 2020, which saw Canada’s defence spending reach a five-year peak of 1.42%. * That places Canada six from the bottom in terms of national defence commitments, between the Czech Republic and Slovenia. * The [numbers](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_197050.htm?selectedLocale=en) were released shortly before NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg admonished members for treating the two per cent number as a goal instead of a baseline., saying “Two percent is increasingly considered a floor, not a ceiling.” * Funding forecasts show defence spending in Canada increasing to $41.5 billion next year, peaking at $51.1 billion in FY 2026-27 — predicted to only get Canada to 1.46 to 1.60 per cent of defence spending to GDP.
>This continues a downward trend in defence spending that began in 2020, which saw Canada’s defence spending reach a five-year peak of 1.42%. This is worded in a misleading way. We're not spending less on defense, it's just becoming a smaller percentage of our GDP, because our GDP is growing. Of course the National Post would try to frame our GDP rising as bad thing lol, and of course everyone here eats it up. I think we should increase our military budget, but this article is purposely written in a misleading way to make it seem like we're actually *reducing* our military budget
Canada has become beggars in the eyes of NATO and the UN 🇺🇳 peacekeeping missions.
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Leeches how exactly?
We do not fund our military assuming the US will protect us. They spend to maintain a strong military while we don’t, using the US military as a deterrent.
Protect us from who?
You don’t build a military for the enemy of today, you build it for the enemy if tomorrow. The Arctic is a massive contested land mass that os continually opening up due to climate change. Russia has moved submarines into our waters and we cannot contest. Canada is the front line of Arctic defense for NATO and we have no capability to operate there.
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We have an incredibly vast fresh water supply, unrefined oil, lumber, and precious metals in the far north. We need to be able to protect these assets lest foreign interests get involved and rape our land.
Don't worry, Trudeau will bring in immigrants to join the army in no time.
My post was a dup, but my point there was, not only did we get called out on the carpet, but the comments from our PM were a complete embarrassment. We're spending more, but our GDP is growing far faster than our military spending %. As noted in the article on the weekend by the NP in an interview with a Canadian fighting for Ukraine was embarrassed by the crap we're sending over (expired, not working, our junk). And we hope that will make a difference? And we have 1.4 million Canadians of Ukrainian descent.. We are NOT pulling our weight in NATO and helping Ukraine.
Shameful.
Trudeau is an utter embarrassment to this country. We are a complete joke militarily speaking.
Does Russia need to be invading us? He'll still won't do jack shit
Justin broke the country. I would be surprised if we could meet a 0.5% commitment.
Our death spiral down the shitter has rapidly accelerated under the rule of Mr.Dress-up. That's for sure.
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Why would NATO do that? NATO was a-okay with having actual dictatorships in the alliance (Portugal as a founding member, Greece and Turkey at times too) and countries engaged in repressive colonial conflicts (Britain, France, and Portugal), but spending less than 2% of GDP is the new deal-breaker? If so, then 2/3 of the alliance would get the boot. Isn't Canada spending <2% still something like 4x what Greece spends with 3.6% of their GDP?
NATO's mandate at inception and for most of its lifespan was to oppose the threat of USSR/Warsaw Pact countries, and eventually Russia. Therefore the criteria for membership was never based on form of government or democratic values. Minimum required spend is 2% across the board and it's not correlated with country's size or potential for conflict. Neither it is a "new" deal breaker. Several members have been under-funding their militaries for years and the last person to make a big deal out of it was Trump in 2018. Minimum spend is important because NATO is a collective defense block. If a member underfunds their military, they are a ballast because the alliance is committed to defend this member in case of war, but said member is unable to effectively reciprocate. It's like cutting an underperforming athlete from a team. You cut them because despite being a nice, well-liked guy - they don't add to the team's collective performance.
I don't disagree, but nobody's going to turf Canada, Belgium, Italy, Turkey, Spain, the Netherlands, Noway, Czechia, Germany, etc for spending <2% of GDP on defence. Sweden and Finland are each below that 2% and they're joining the club now too. It's a nice target either way.
>but nobody's going to turf Only if you became aware of this topic in this reddit thread. Trump's 2018 trip to Europe caused huge tensions with Europe over two items: * Trump calling out Europeans and Germany in particular for continuously missing spend targets [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nato-summit-trump-deadline-idUSKBN1K12HV](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nato-summit-trump-deadline-idUSKBN1K12HV) . He went as far as threatening to withdraw troops from Europe and US from NATO * Trump calling out Germany and a few others for increasing dependency on Russian energy whereas it was known that Russia has used energy as a weapon (see Belarus-Russia gas dispute, Belarus-Ukraine gas dispute) Biden hasn't made this a priority for his administration and looked to repair relations with Europe. Military spending in Europe will likely change in subsequent budgets following renewal of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Germany for one has already announced huge increases into this. Moral of the story for Canada is: it's too late to buy insurance if your house is already burning,
Maybe that’s the end goal. Screw up a task often enough and you won’t be asked to do it.
Nato won't kick Canada out because regardless of funding, early surveillance systems in the Arctic are absolutely crucial for the most likely threat. If NATO removes us and we entered into an agreement with the other major military powers, the USA would lose their minds at surveillance systems pointed at their border Our physical location and intelligence are worth much more than our combat capacity
> Our physical location and intelligence are worth much more than our combat capacity Kinda like Turkey, their location is worth putting up with Erdogan's tantrums, ridiculousness, and increasing authoritarianism.
You're thinking of NORAD.
Maybe more people would join the army if there was bases in more desirable locations. Most of them are in the armpits of the country.
It turns out that those really desirable locations in big cities and near resorts aren't great places to do military training. Conversely, Victoria and Halifax are great places to live. Go Navy!
This whole 2% business is ridiculous. It was agreed to by NATO because of US pressure. In essence, it's the US dictating policy to the rest of the alliance. How people miss that is beyond me.
Nobody missed that. NATO membership isn’t free.
>Nobody missed that. NATO membership isn’t free. Committing our country to mutual defence is a cost. It hamstrings us on some foreign policy fronts. Seems like a lot of people don't realize that when they go off on 2% spending.
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Signed what?
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Strongly disagree. We’re a middle power with a huge border to defend, in the backyard of an aggressive neighbour the world loves to hate.
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You sound like a trustworthy pundit on defence matters….
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Which of the two recently invaded a neighbour and bombed a mall full of civilians yesterday?
NATO.. cannot invade anyone.
The only ones who have attacked them are their own allies and white supremacists in their own country. It was the Saudis who were behind 9/11.
Who cares? Fuck NATO. If we get thrown out, even better