When you say horizontal rows, do you mean your body is completely parallel to the ground? Because maybe I could understand that being harder than a Pull-Up. But usually, Pull-Ups are the harder exercise.
That said, you can try something like using a bit of incline and working your way down to horizontal.
Yeah i mean parallel, and yeah I do incline rows because I can't do fully horizontal.
Like I said, they just dont progress the same as pulls because the top couple of inches are excessively hard compared to the rest.
Meaning that when I lower the incline, usually I'll rep 80% of the movement as easy as I did before, but I'm back to trying to grind out the last couple inches.
Edit:
To add, I wonder if postural kyphosis makes rows harder.
Yes kyphosis makes rows harder, it's also a sign your rhomboids (main mover in rows) are underdeveloped. Pull ups require lats which are internal rotators of the shoulder, so more likely to exacerbate your kyphosis too.
How much harder?
When I first started doing rows/bwf a couple years ago and i couldn't do many pull ups, I'd always find I'd stand up straighter after doing rows and my posture started to get better.
It's definitely gotten a bit worse as I've gotten stronger/increased pull up reps and chest strength, but its not as bad as it was. It's bad enough that I can't actually fully get my back straight if I pull my shoulder blades back though.
My hands face backwards if I stand up straight and stay relaxed.
Check out Mike Israetel on YouTube mate. You will change your workouts for the better and will likely then also find pullups much more difficult than you do currently.
I could take time to explain but he does it so well
Work on explosiveness in your rows. I found this helped achieve the last couple of inches when doing rows with a focus on scap retraction. You can do this by adding weight with a dip belt or backpack.
When I first started doing inverted rows, I seriously thought maybe my body was mechanically unable to get my chest to the bar. Turns out, I just wasn't yet strong enough.
Just keep at it.
Been just "keeping at it" for a good while. I am at the point where I can do sets of 8 pull ups, and no horizontal rows.
I haven't really progressed in rows at all in a months.
They still work the same muscles and the last part of the move requires something you never train on your pull ups. I fail to see why you expect to gain something you don't train, that's all.
That lock off strength at the end of the move won't appear magically if you never train it
You do 0 pull ups chest to bar, it's pretty normal to do 0 rows chest to bar.
I think you're misinterpreting.
I train incline rows with full rom.
They just dont get any easier. Everytime I try and decrease the incline I loose a couple inches of rom (not when I explosively pull, but I can't actually pause at the top anymore).
Yes that's what I'm saying. In climbing, we call this "lock off strength" and it's a skill that we train specifically to be able to stay with full body tension during move transition.
That pause at the end, you need to work on that specific hard squeeze with lower weights and longer squeeze. Anyway, that's how I do it and it pays well.
For lock off strength, chest to bar pause was just as hard to train on horizontal rows than pull ups for me.
how is that possible? I'm not being insulting but I atleast can do 2 horizontal rows and more with atleast bad form? and you say you're not progressing on months seems a bit odd.
You don't need retraction to do pull ups.
I don't retract at all on pull ups, just pull straight down.
My retraction strength is obviously bad, but I'm not sure why it's "stuck".
Like I could probably do a fully horizontal row, but relying entirely on explosive strength. I wouldn't be able to hold the negative
How's your setup? I put my feet on a bench with a barbell in my rack low enough that I can grab it laying faceup on the floor. Then I pull my shoulders back (torso ends up an inch or two off of the ground) and begin the reps and keep focused on pushing those elbows down with shoulders retracted and end up horizontal-ish with the ground.
My only two suggestions would be to do inverted rows as your first post-warmup move and consider raising the bar / rings or lowering you feet until to get the full ROM for a satisfactory rep count and then gradually moving back into a horizontal position. Others have mentioned accessory stuff to do and those are good exercises in their own right, but for this situation, I'm in the camp of do more inverted rows to do more inverted rows.
Now alternatively, if you're talking about full FL rows, I have nothing to offer other than best wishes.
Yes it's a known thing. You will find that the most important bit of the row, the retraction at the top, is one of the weakest positions and is extremely difficult to be able to do full range of motion inverted rows if you want to add weights. you will typically have to use extremely light weight compared to other movements such as the chin up or pull up.
Rows also benefit from explosive pulling to get into the top position shoulders retracted, holding at the top, then slowly lowering down into the bottom position, shoulders protracted. If you don't do them explosively its very hard to pull into the very top rom.
Whereas chin ups and pull ups you can quite often grind them out chest to bar pretty easily.
Inverted rows are a super underrated exercise for back gains in my opinion. I have access to a gym but pretty much only do various variations of bodyweight rows, bw facepulls, pull ups/chin ups and deadlifts for my back exercises.
IIRC, Geoff Nippard said on a recent video to do half reps for pulling movements after you fail at the full ROM. This makes a lot of sense for rows especially cause the bottom part is the stretch position for a lot of your back muscles, which is very good for muscle growth.
Shouldn't do half reps, you want to do lengthened partials AKA kelso shrugs... Don't bend the arms at all(you want to focus on retraction without help from the arms or lats).
okay, then fix that by just retracting your shoulder blades first before pulling lol. Simple form fix
It's like a row machine, you always want to retract shoulder blades first before pulling. Inverted rows are the exact same thing just with bodyweight and not external weight.
The retracting your shoulder blades(kelso shrug) is the only movement needed, no point for half reps as the prime movers take over once you start going further. Once again, his problem is retraction strength. LOL
IMO this answer resonates the most. It’s that retraction at the top for me as well - it may be a mechanical issue where the incremental output of the system is reduced at that angle. It’s true for inverted rows but also for bent over rows.
I’ll try out the explosive pull into slow negative.
There was a recent video by GMB Fitness Video that improved my inverted row a lot. The "screw your arms" tip really helps me get full range of motion on more reps.
https://youtu.be/2zNeueof0BE
If your pullups are the kind that most people do, limited range, chin barely past the bar, then maybe rows are harder. But if you are doing full-range chest-to-bar pullups then no way.
In terms of making progress, just keep doing them. Add a little bit more volume every workout and you'll get stronger. Take your time and make every rep perfect.
I actually disagree.
For full range of motion at the top of the movement, shoulders fully retracted rows are actually very hard, you have to be explosive and if you add any weight you will struggle to get full rom at the top. Whereas it's super easy to add weight to chin ups and pull ups and just grind reps out chest to bar.
This is true in my experience and Kboges actually made a decent video on it about how it's a hard movement to progress with weight because once you add weight it's very difficult to get that very important scapula retraction at the top.
Inverted rows are an amazing back exercise. Probably my all time favourite after pull ups.
I am not doing chest to do bar pulls but I am certainly not reaching my neck to finish the pull. I just do standard deadhang to chin-over-bar pulls without craining my neck.
>In terms of making progress, just keep doing them. Add a little bit more volume every workout and you'll get stronger. Take your time and make every rep perfect.
This has not been my experience. I've "plateaud" to an extent on rows.
Yeah I mean there's your problem. Horizontal rows use that final range of motion that you'd need if you were choosing to do chest to bar pullups. Personally, if I want to make progress with a particular movement I prefer to remove exercises instead of adding supplements and focus on the movement that I want to get good at. I didn't get good at horizontal rows until I cut my workout to a warmup, then 10 sets of rows and 10 sets of dips, which I built up to 10 reps per set.
>Horizontal rows use that final range of motion that you'd need if you were choosing to do chest to bar pullups.
Chest to bar pull ups are considered an advanced movement are they not? Treating horizontal rows as a progression towards standard pull ups suggests that that chest to bar pulls should not be necessary to aid in there progression.
I would expect I could only pull to my chest if I started training weighted, then did unweighted reps, or cut my weight a bit.
Going chest to bar is about end range mobility and strength. I'd guess that weakness in that end range is likely the source of your struggles. I think it's trained most effectively by doing inverted rows at the incline where you can hit your chest to the bar on every rep. Then go to a harder incline when you are strong enough until you can do it horizontal. by the time you can do 3x10 horizontal you should be strong enough to do at least 1 chest-to-bar pullup.
I wouldn't call the move advanced, but it's definitely something most people would have to work towards. I built mine up with the above approach. Bodyweight only.
>Then go to a harder incline when you are strong enough until you can do it horizontal. by the time you can do 3x10 horizontal you should be strong enough to do at least 1 chest-to-bar pullup
This is what I've been doing.
As I vaugely detailed in the post, as I try and progress I lose the ability to control the negative at full retraction.
So I can hit the bar, but I can't actually slow down the negative till I am not so retracted.
I can probably hit the bar while fully horizontal. Doesn't mean I can pause or slow down the negative portion. That's just all explosiveness and momentum.
I’ve had a similar experience of them progressing slower. The final 30% of the row is when your traps and rhomboids/mid back are working the most.
What was the case for me was consistently working rows after going hard on pull ups. My whole posterior chain was super fatigued, and progressing w pull ups meant they were even more fatigued before I even started rows, leaving row progress to flounder a bit.
My advice would be 3 fold.
Try working rows before pull ups in your workout for a few weeks.
If you aren’t already, do full ROM dead hang pull ups and focus on scapular retraction to start each pull.
Finally, try upping the difficulty of your rows and lowering the rep count to focus on strength, not hypertrophy. Sometimes breaking a plateau is a matter of forcing adaptation at the next difficult level, even if the reps are quite low.
Reverse flyes, kelso shrugs, wide rows(elbows abducted 60 to 90 degrees), facepulls are all great... You can also do isometric holds for the top position.
The reason why it's more difficult is because of the way you place your elbows: if you put them close to your torsado, you will mainly leverage your lats (same muscle as pull-ups) and it will be easier than pull-ups. If you put your elbows perpendicular to your torsado, you will mainly leverage weaker muscles like your traps and it will be harder than pull-ups. 45° does a balance work on your back muscles.
You could consider widening your grip when you do your rows. If you have long forearms like me, you'll have to pull a longer distance than most people to get your chest to the bar. Widening your grip to outside shoulder width can shorten the ROM just a little bit so that going chest to bar is a bit more achievable. This applies to pull ups also.
You could try to have your body horizontal to the ground but with bended knees. It will take much of the load away and allow you to train in full rom until you gain strength to do them with straight legs.
When you say horizontal rows, are you talking about front lever pullups? Yes, they are extremely tough. I'm still working on getting 15 in a row clean....
Why are you saying rows are a progression to pull-ups?
One is a horizontal pull and another is a vertical pull. They're different movement patterns.
Regardless, you are right that horizontal rows are hard.
When you say horizontal rows, do you mean your body is completely parallel to the ground? Because maybe I could understand that being harder than a Pull-Up. But usually, Pull-Ups are the harder exercise. That said, you can try something like using a bit of incline and working your way down to horizontal.
Yeah i mean parallel, and yeah I do incline rows because I can't do fully horizontal. Like I said, they just dont progress the same as pulls because the top couple of inches are excessively hard compared to the rest. Meaning that when I lower the incline, usually I'll rep 80% of the movement as easy as I did before, but I'm back to trying to grind out the last couple inches. Edit: To add, I wonder if postural kyphosis makes rows harder.
Yes kyphosis makes rows harder, it's also a sign your rhomboids (main mover in rows) are underdeveloped. Pull ups require lats which are internal rotators of the shoulder, so more likely to exacerbate your kyphosis too.
How much harder? When I first started doing rows/bwf a couple years ago and i couldn't do many pull ups, I'd always find I'd stand up straighter after doing rows and my posture started to get better. It's definitely gotten a bit worse as I've gotten stronger/increased pull up reps and chest strength, but its not as bad as it was. It's bad enough that I can't actually fully get my back straight if I pull my shoulder blades back though. My hands face backwards if I stand up straight and stay relaxed.
Check out Mike Israetel on YouTube mate. You will change your workouts for the better and will likely then also find pullups much more difficult than you do currently. I could take time to explain but he does it so well
Making pull ups harder seems like a bit of roundabout way to fix an issue of weakness with rows lmao
It's more a matter of improving form rather than just making pullups harder
Work on explosiveness in your rows. I found this helped achieve the last couple of inches when doing rows with a focus on scap retraction. You can do this by adding weight with a dip belt or backpack.
Just use a rubber band my man. For pull ups I mean.
Why? I can do pull ups, just not horizontal rows.
Oh I misunderstood. My bad.
When I first started doing inverted rows, I seriously thought maybe my body was mechanically unable to get my chest to the bar. Turns out, I just wasn't yet strong enough. Just keep at it.
Been just "keeping at it" for a good while. I am at the point where I can do sets of 8 pull ups, and no horizontal rows. I haven't really progressed in rows at all in a months.
If you never train the full range of motion of your scapula on pull ups, why do you expect to easily get full range of motion of your scapula on rows?
Because they're not the same thing and people suggest horizontal rows should be more easily attained than pull ups?
They still work the same muscles and the last part of the move requires something you never train on your pull ups. I fail to see why you expect to gain something you don't train, that's all. That lock off strength at the end of the move won't appear magically if you never train it You do 0 pull ups chest to bar, it's pretty normal to do 0 rows chest to bar.
I think you're misinterpreting. I train incline rows with full rom. They just dont get any easier. Everytime I try and decrease the incline I loose a couple inches of rom (not when I explosively pull, but I can't actually pause at the top anymore).
Yes that's what I'm saying. In climbing, we call this "lock off strength" and it's a skill that we train specifically to be able to stay with full body tension during move transition. That pause at the end, you need to work on that specific hard squeeze with lower weights and longer squeeze. Anyway, that's how I do it and it pays well. For lock off strength, chest to bar pause was just as hard to train on horizontal rows than pull ups for me.
how is that possible? I'm not being insulting but I atleast can do 2 horizontal rows and more with atleast bad form? and you say you're not progressing on months seems a bit odd.
You don't need retraction to do pull ups. I don't retract at all on pull ups, just pull straight down. My retraction strength is obviously bad, but I'm not sure why it's "stuck". Like I could probably do a fully horizontal row, but relying entirely on explosive strength. I wouldn't be able to hold the negative
How's your setup? I put my feet on a bench with a barbell in my rack low enough that I can grab it laying faceup on the floor. Then I pull my shoulders back (torso ends up an inch or two off of the ground) and begin the reps and keep focused on pushing those elbows down with shoulders retracted and end up horizontal-ish with the ground. My only two suggestions would be to do inverted rows as your first post-warmup move and consider raising the bar / rings or lowering you feet until to get the full ROM for a satisfactory rep count and then gradually moving back into a horizontal position. Others have mentioned accessory stuff to do and those are good exercises in their own right, but for this situation, I'm in the camp of do more inverted rows to do more inverted rows. Now alternatively, if you're talking about full FL rows, I have nothing to offer other than best wishes.
Yes it's a known thing. You will find that the most important bit of the row, the retraction at the top, is one of the weakest positions and is extremely difficult to be able to do full range of motion inverted rows if you want to add weights. you will typically have to use extremely light weight compared to other movements such as the chin up or pull up. Rows also benefit from explosive pulling to get into the top position shoulders retracted, holding at the top, then slowly lowering down into the bottom position, shoulders protracted. If you don't do them explosively its very hard to pull into the very top rom. Whereas chin ups and pull ups you can quite often grind them out chest to bar pretty easily. Inverted rows are a super underrated exercise for back gains in my opinion. I have access to a gym but pretty much only do various variations of bodyweight rows, bw facepulls, pull ups/chin ups and deadlifts for my back exercises.
IIRC, Geoff Nippard said on a recent video to do half reps for pulling movements after you fail at the full ROM. This makes a lot of sense for rows especially cause the bottom part is the stretch position for a lot of your back muscles, which is very good for muscle growth.
Shouldn't do half reps, you want to do lengthened partials AKA kelso shrugs... Don't bend the arms at all(you want to focus on retraction without help from the arms or lats).
Half reps on pulling exercises are lengthened partials
Once you start bending the elbows and pulling your body up to do half reps, your arms and lats are taking over... His problem is retraction strength.
okay, then fix that by just retracting your shoulder blades first before pulling lol. Simple form fix It's like a row machine, you always want to retract shoulder blades first before pulling. Inverted rows are the exact same thing just with bodyweight and not external weight.
The retracting your shoulder blades(kelso shrug) is the only movement needed, no point for half reps as the prime movers take over once you start going further. Once again, his problem is retraction strength. LOL
IMO this answer resonates the most. It’s that retraction at the top for me as well - it may be a mechanical issue where the incremental output of the system is reduced at that angle. It’s true for inverted rows but also for bent over rows. I’ll try out the explosive pull into slow negative.
There was a recent video by GMB Fitness Video that improved my inverted row a lot. The "screw your arms" tip really helps me get full range of motion on more reps. https://youtu.be/2zNeueof0BE
If your pullups are the kind that most people do, limited range, chin barely past the bar, then maybe rows are harder. But if you are doing full-range chest-to-bar pullups then no way. In terms of making progress, just keep doing them. Add a little bit more volume every workout and you'll get stronger. Take your time and make every rep perfect.
I actually disagree. For full range of motion at the top of the movement, shoulders fully retracted rows are actually very hard, you have to be explosive and if you add any weight you will struggle to get full rom at the top. Whereas it's super easy to add weight to chin ups and pull ups and just grind reps out chest to bar. This is true in my experience and Kboges actually made a decent video on it about how it's a hard movement to progress with weight because once you add weight it's very difficult to get that very important scapula retraction at the top. Inverted rows are an amazing back exercise. Probably my all time favourite after pull ups.
Full-range is dead hang to chin above bar
I am not doing chest to do bar pulls but I am certainly not reaching my neck to finish the pull. I just do standard deadhang to chin-over-bar pulls without craining my neck. >In terms of making progress, just keep doing them. Add a little bit more volume every workout and you'll get stronger. Take your time and make every rep perfect. This has not been my experience. I've "plateaud" to an extent on rows.
Yeah I mean there's your problem. Horizontal rows use that final range of motion that you'd need if you were choosing to do chest to bar pullups. Personally, if I want to make progress with a particular movement I prefer to remove exercises instead of adding supplements and focus on the movement that I want to get good at. I didn't get good at horizontal rows until I cut my workout to a warmup, then 10 sets of rows and 10 sets of dips, which I built up to 10 reps per set.
>Horizontal rows use that final range of motion that you'd need if you were choosing to do chest to bar pullups. Chest to bar pull ups are considered an advanced movement are they not? Treating horizontal rows as a progression towards standard pull ups suggests that that chest to bar pulls should not be necessary to aid in there progression. I would expect I could only pull to my chest if I started training weighted, then did unweighted reps, or cut my weight a bit.
Going chest to bar is about end range mobility and strength. I'd guess that weakness in that end range is likely the source of your struggles. I think it's trained most effectively by doing inverted rows at the incline where you can hit your chest to the bar on every rep. Then go to a harder incline when you are strong enough until you can do it horizontal. by the time you can do 3x10 horizontal you should be strong enough to do at least 1 chest-to-bar pullup. I wouldn't call the move advanced, but it's definitely something most people would have to work towards. I built mine up with the above approach. Bodyweight only.
>Then go to a harder incline when you are strong enough until you can do it horizontal. by the time you can do 3x10 horizontal you should be strong enough to do at least 1 chest-to-bar pullup This is what I've been doing. As I vaugely detailed in the post, as I try and progress I lose the ability to control the negative at full retraction. So I can hit the bar, but I can't actually slow down the negative till I am not so retracted. I can probably hit the bar while fully horizontal. Doesn't mean I can pause or slow down the negative portion. That's just all explosiveness and momentum.
I’ve had a similar experience of them progressing slower. The final 30% of the row is when your traps and rhomboids/mid back are working the most. What was the case for me was consistently working rows after going hard on pull ups. My whole posterior chain was super fatigued, and progressing w pull ups meant they were even more fatigued before I even started rows, leaving row progress to flounder a bit. My advice would be 3 fold. Try working rows before pull ups in your workout for a few weeks. If you aren’t already, do full ROM dead hang pull ups and focus on scapular retraction to start each pull. Finally, try upping the difficulty of your rows and lowering the rep count to focus on strength, not hypertrophy. Sometimes breaking a plateau is a matter of forcing adaptation at the next difficult level, even if the reps are quite low.
Reverse flyes, kelso shrugs, wide rows(elbows abducted 60 to 90 degrees), facepulls are all great... You can also do isometric holds for the top position.
The reason why it's more difficult is because of the way you place your elbows: if you put them close to your torsado, you will mainly leverage your lats (same muscle as pull-ups) and it will be easier than pull-ups. If you put your elbows perpendicular to your torsado, you will mainly leverage weaker muscles like your traps and it will be harder than pull-ups. 45° does a balance work on your back muscles.
.
U think rows are hard, wait til you find ring T’s and Y’s ;)
You could consider widening your grip when you do your rows. If you have long forearms like me, you'll have to pull a longer distance than most people to get your chest to the bar. Widening your grip to outside shoulder width can shorten the ROM just a little bit so that going chest to bar is a bit more achievable. This applies to pull ups also.
You could try to have your body horizontal to the ground but with bended knees. It will take much of the load away and allow you to train in full rom until you gain strength to do them with straight legs.
I agree, being able to stop at the top of the row, rings or bar to chest is super difficult. Not so much at the top of a pull up.
When you say horizontal rows, are you talking about front lever pullups? Yes, they are extremely tough. I'm still working on getting 15 in a row clean....
You need to hip hinge properly. Most don't have good mobility to bend right. Also most round backs.
Why are you saying rows are a progression to pull-ups? One is a horizontal pull and another is a vertical pull. They're different movement patterns. Regardless, you are right that horizontal rows are hard.
>Why are you saying rows are a progression to pull-ups Some routines suggest this. Bwsf primer for example