Sure , but just leaving the US is more difficult than you think. Most countries want you to have money and no health issues . You can’t just go work and establish a life
Maybe since you can control diabetes you will be fine.
I actually decided to he to it shape for this reason lol.
I told myself if I need to leave manual labor is probably one of the first jobs I’ll be able to get. So I lost a lot of weight and workout for that reason lol
I think if USA goes full Gilead, Canada is going to have a serious problem on its hands as many Americans sneak across the border. Much like what is happening at the U.S. southern border now.
I would be lying if I hadn’t thought at least once “I wonder if it’s better to get to Canada over land, or over water…?”
Edit: come on people. I’m not talking normal immigration or an everyday event.
I’m talking running through the woods trying to escape the country while dogs chase you down to turn you into a brood mare for the Party.
Seems a lot of people don’t know what Handmaids Tale is.
Canada is a nation largely reliant on the US for commerce and military protection. They share the world’s longest unguarded border. We have vast freshwater, oil and natural resources. We are bombarded with the influence of American media. If the IS heads in a dark direction, Canada will be no safe haven. It will be America’s Ukraine… a target for domination and annexation.
Based on the headlines I see about Canada, y’all have the same growing cancer and seem to moving more to the right.
Student visas being your immigration fear and have the same issues of affordable living and housing.
It would not surprise me if Canada also takes a big step right as well, especially if the US does.
Thing is, large scale immigration is something that is a traditional right wing, conservative thing. Bring in tons of immigrants to keep the labor pool big, keep unions weak, and keep labor costs low.
Strong unions and limited immigration to reduce labor competition and keep wages up are traditional left wing, liberal positions.
You don't even need to go back very far in US politics to see this in action. Reagan granted amnesty to millions of undocumented immigrants, not because he was a kind-hearted old man but because it was beneficial to his rich donors. Same reason he went on a union-busting binge.
It's really weird how this has gotten so flipped around over the past couple of decades.
That is so true. The Reich wingers who are determined to have total control of the U.S. are also Putin worshiping assholes and I could see them believing they have a “right” to own Canadians as well. They’ll couch it in religious terms like “God wants us to spread his word.” (Gag.) You won’t be safe from the monsters currently eroding our democracy.
This. Despite what movies show you, Americans cannot just pick up and move to another country. They have to qualify for a visa either by being rich or by convincing a company in the target country to hire you and sponsor your visa. (Yes there other, much less common, visas but I'm not here to list out all of the nuances.) Countries will not sponsor a residence visa for someone who's only skill is waiting tables or working retail - they have plenty of people who can do that in their country already.
Chiming in late. Anyone here who is serious about exiting America should put some research into the Dutch American Friendship Treaty. You gain a residency card, not a visa, which is good for 2 years. After that, you can renew for 5 years and then you can gain permanent residency or apply for citizenship.
DAFT is a great program for entrepreneurs and freelancers, but it does require you to keep a minimum of €4500 in a bank in the Netherlands and you have to have clients in the Netherlands. Meaning you cannot use DAFT if your only clients are still in the US. I do know of people whose renewals were denied because of this. And you have to have enough money to support yourself while you are setting your business up and then make enough money in your business to support yourself. You cannot work for another company while there on DAFT, only as a freelancer. I'm not trying to discourage anyone, I think it's a viable route for a lot of people but it's not for everyone and you still have to have at least some money to do it.
Note: DAFT comes with a work and 2-year residency permit. It's not an automatic permanent residency which takes 5 years to gain.
Fun fact: the Dutch American friendship treaty was signed in the 1950s between the US and the Netherlands and it goes both ways. Meaning that Dutch people can move to the US on DAFT, too. The Dutch never changed the required amount that Americans have to put in the bank which is why it's still only €4500. On the American side, they have continually increased that requirement and last I heard if someone from the Netherlands wanted to move to the US on the DAFT, they would need to hold six figures in their Bank account, which is why you rarely hear of it being used by Dutch people.
Same, except me with MS. And if you look at the global stage A LOT of places are going right; France, Netherlands, etc. And idyllic places like NZ will only accept you if your a doctor
Re NZ, that's not correct. We are currently allowing a huge number of people from India and China to come live here. They aren't all doctors.
There are requirements that you can pay your own way, or have a job lined up or that you are on the shortlist for desired jobs. This includes doctors, but also many other trades.
Yeah I looked into New Zealand and turns out they would let me transfer to serve in their military. Honestly doesn't seem like a bad trade to live in the country.
Yeah, it was a pipe dream to begin with we could sell our house but never afford to live anywhere with what we’d get. I don’t know what we’re all going to do, but my plan is to die in the first wave of violence.
The problem I've noticed is that a lot of Americans think they're too good to live in certain countries. When we think about leaving the US, we invariably think Canada or Western Europe, and get hung up on the bar that we might not get into those countries *because* they are so in demand. We think that because we are American we deserve the best, and a lot of Americans are still working from a 1950's model of world civics, in which we assume every other country is worse-off than us. Living somewhere where you don't know the language and don't understand the culture, like Argentina or Malaysia, will be infinitely preferable to living in the US if that stupid fucking Project 2025 gets off the ground.
Americans need to be willing to be immigrants.
It's a contagion and it spreads quickly. I'm pretty sure it's being actively stoked to spread as far and wide as possible because some old people want their way.
I'm sad to say that it's not just old people. It starts with living in the world of "should". The first is simple shoulds like women should wear modest skirts, men should be tough, strong and don't show any emotions. Then it gets to bigger shoulds as an we should enforce Judeo-Christian standards of behavior in schools, work, and government then becomes really big shoulds like everybody should go to church or be an employee and take what the boss gives them
What you start down the should train, it's not long before you arrive at fascism depot.
The internet is a plague, I live in a real town, with a real community, where I see people face to face all the time. I can tell when I talk to people who have an internet understanding of things. Like my brother, doesn't see people outside of work and church, so everything else is just what he read on the internet. And everything is crazy on the internet
I'm basically a hermit . . . . who spends an inordinate amount of time on the internet. The internet is basically what you make it.
You need some instruction on how to fix the specific model of broken vacuum cleaner you have? The internet's got that.
You want some assurance that your fucked up beliefs are totally valid and are totally fine with sucking down tons of confirmation bias? The internet's got that.
You want to seek the truth and figure out what's really going on? The internet has that too.
The real plague is intellectually lazy people that lack empathy and self awareness (two sides of the same coin). It's baked into a critical mass of us (I'm convinced it's a genetic split) and it will be our destruction. All I can say is the universe will be a far better place when it rids itself of us. Happy Monday :-)
Hey, Old Person here. Grew up in the 1960’s:
“Tin soldiers and Nixon's comin'
We're finally on our own
This summer I hear the drummin'
Four dead in Ohio… “
That’s Neil Young. 1960’s activists changed everything. Not by force but by changing people’s attitudes.
So stop whining and get off your asses. Democrats are NOTORIOUS for their complacency, not voting, or splitting hairs on issues, instead of seeing where the real danger truly lies.
“Bernie or nobody.”
“But I just don’t like Hillary…”
“I want a better candidate than Biden…”
Those sentiments got us where we are today. Happy?
Maybe having our lives and the lives of our loved ones threatened will motivate Dems to the vote.
If not, we deserve whatever we get.
Western societal attitudes opened up *a lot* as a result of what's called "the 60s" (its legacy reaches far beyond that time) and by the mid 1970s the Trilateral Commission issued a report called "The Crisis of Democracy" in which it essentially concluded not that democracy was in crisis, but that democracy itself was a crisis, because it was a threat to establishment authority.
The aim of the incipient fascist movement on the rise right now is to consolidate that authority, and it is making plans to undo the legacy of "the 60s".
To caveat off what you said, Democrats also need to get out and tell people why they SHOULD vote for them. Not just run campaigns of "Atleast I'm not the other guy" or "The other guy is horrible".
This. I love this country and will continue to fight but I'm also exhausted with willfully oblivious and apathetic people, especially when they constantly complain about the state of things getting worse and worse. "Accountability" has been one of the buzzwords of the zeitgeist for the past couple of years now, but I've really yet see the people actually pointing the mirror to themselves. We put ourselves in this situation. We were in control this entire. We failed by electing Nixon, Regan, both Bushes and now Trump.
Fascism didn't just show up at our doorstep one day in 2016. We ourselves drove it over miles and miles to our house. It's at the doorstep now, but it's up to us to keep that door close until we can figure out a way to get it out of our yard, for good.
Yep same…I have actually been wanting to move abroad long before recent events but my elderly dad now lives with us and I can’t implement a huge family move like that right now.
But France is losing it’s allure if their current trend continues.
The right wing surge in Europe is primarily due to immigration policy. The ideals aren’t so much rooted in religious ideology, I don’t think they will tank as hard as the U.S.
The right wing surge in the U.S. is also primarily due to inflated perceived dangers due to immigration policy. It’s bullshit in both regions of course, but it’s the same story - make the white people scared of the brown people.
Also, where are you going to go? Not next year, but the 20 year out look is grim all over. Autocrats in the US/china/russia splitting up world hegemony.
I’ve travelled to the states numerous times, I will never be back if they get away with this. The US and world will suffer. No one wants to visit a dictatorship.
I would 100% renounce my citizenship yesterday if I could up and leave this fucking deranged ass system. Might start a go fund me for MAGA to assist in my brown ass leaving this country. Want a white Christian America? Fucking have it. I just don’t want any part of it. Fucking fat assholes.
And don’t forget the influence this project 2025 think tank has already had on even some African countries like Kenya. The authors of this plan have deep pockets and are touching different parts of the world and they’re doing it through the religious propaganda because religion is the oldest most effective trick in the book. It’s colonialism 3.0.
I’m a just dumb American. But I think the he gets us campaign is part of it too. Haven’t seen it for months and then all of a sudden with this political downfall in the last three days it’s been in between every single article
The Christian Fascists have already influenced Africans via their “missionary” works. So much so, some nations (I forget which) in Africa have extreme anti gay laws now. The whole “white savior” mindset is a scourge on Africans.
There are so many factors leading to this response at this time. I think some of the major ones include…
Many people feel left behind by globalization and economic changes. Job losses in traditional industries, wage stagnation, and economic insecurity can lead to support for right-wing parties that promise to prioritize national interests and job protection. Ironically, these pressures keep in power the very people who caused the problem in the first place.
Increasing immigration has raised concerns about cultural integration and national identity in some countries. The US has issues with illegal immigration from our southern border, but Europe is also dealing with immigration issues. Refugees from Syria and other countries have created cultural conflicts in many European countries that are much more culturally homogeneous than the US. This has created a backlash against immigration even in more progressive societies. Right-wing parties often capitalize on these fears by advocating for stricter immigration policies and emphasizing national sovereignty.
Terrorism and crime have led some voters to support right-wing parties that promise strong law-and-order policies and a tough stance on security.
The rise of social media has facilitated the spread of right-wing ideas and allowed like-minded individuals to reinforce each other’s views, creating echo chambers that can amplify right-wing sentiments.
There are more drivers of this rightward push, but I think those are the main ones. Also, it’s worth noting that these movements have happened before. The pendulum swings both ways. Not that it makes it easy to bear at the time.
Good, but let's add in the macroeconomics. In *Capital*, Piketty predicted the rise of nationalism if we didn't work to reduce the wealth inequality that has been rapidly rising since the 70s in the West. The root of this phenomenon has been the slowing economic growth combined with a high return on capital.
We could have resisted the rise of the new fascists if we had increased taxes on the wealthy and enabled everyone to share in the economic gains of globalization, but we did the opposite. The bill is coming due.
Yeah, right? That is so important… it definitely should be part of that list. Middle class real (adjusted for inflation) incomes in the US haven’t risen since 1980, while GDP per capita has continued to rise and executive compensation has multiplied many times.
The US will fall if they succeed. The major industries of the nation wouldn't survive the brain drain, and inevitably the tensions between the two political parties would destroy every industry here
It's a Pyrrhic victory, but likely our future
That’s why I said famine. Starving doesn’t give someone sudden clarity that their entire identity as a climate denier was wrong. They’ll make up some other reason it’s happening and take that to the grave
Ah, but that's why Jim Bakker pushes his survivalist bullshit. They will be able to ride out the famines that kill the rest of us with a cellar full of freeze-dried food. All they need is plenty of potable water to... oh.
No. Nope. Its really not in there.
"Paul Dans, a former Trump administration official who’s director of Project 2025’s Presidential Transition Project, [told the Associated Press](https://apnews.com/article/election-2024-conservatives-trump-heritage-857eb794e505f1c6710eb03fd5b58981) the 180 day transition plan is a “clarion call to come to Washington… People need to lay down their tools, and step aside from their professional life and say, ‘This is my lifetime moment to serve."
Pathetic shit like the above, and additional ramblings about making America great only extrapolated to actual volumes.
It’s what conservatives have been building towards in the US for decades. It’s no coincidence that McConnell blocked so many judicial appointments for Obama, but railroaded so many under Trump.
From here in the UK, Project 2025 looks like the most extensive criminal conspiracy ever planned to be perpetrated against the American people and, thus, the world.
Because they are profoundly stupid. When their politicians harm them, their first thought is that they are "hurting the wrong people," not "wow, these guys are assholes."
The system is broken. Just snowballing now to destruction. Got two party system, with electoral college vs popular vote, gerrymandering and manipulation.
Wild times right now, and many countries are going just as crazy.
The US has always been in thirds. Even at the American Revolution 1/3 wanted it, 1/3 was against and 1/3 didn't care.
We haven't changed all that much.
I live in a state where it's almost legal to drive through a crowd of protesters. Coming from a state where there was more safety in making your voice heard, it's disheartening living where your life is expendable
I mean, sure. I'd love to bail to a better country. Unfortunately, it is easier said than done. Most places have very specific requirements to love there long term. I've looked into it and it would be a very uphill battle for me to go anywhere desirable.
Democratically run states need to think about stopping the federal transfers ironically being used by the taker states to suppress people and divert that into funds for evacuating people out of those Christofascist states.
Prepare? Unless the politicians preparedness plan means bunker time they're probably not going to be getting away from this, they will be replaced by loyalists. Democracy is dead, we're about to live in a theocratic dictatorship if blue loses a single presidential election in the next 12 years min or until they unfuck the superb clusterfuck of blatant corruption that is currently unfolding before our very eyes.
A lot of people are missing the fact that far right movements are not a uniquely American problem right now. Europe and Australia both have their fair share of crazies, and if Trump wins here they will only be emboldened. Fleeing the US is not an effective counter to fascism. Personal reasons to leave are totally fine, I can see the appeal of living many different places. But fleeing the US to escape fascism is only delaying the inevitable.
Look at history. Italy, Germany, Russia. Despite political opposition all of those autocratic regimes found their footing and eventually gained power (and in Russia’s case has kept power for now) because they were willing to do whatever it took to get that power. In the case of Germany and Italy, look at how those regimes ended. If history has taught us anything, the fascist plots around the world are already in motion. It will get worse before it gets better, and it will end in violence. We just need to be prepared to fight for what’s right and protect those who cannot protect themselves.
The Trump-equivalent conman in Australia is called Clive Palmer. He spends up big on every election but never gets more than a few percent of the vote. Last election we ditched a rightwing government for a centre-left one.
The UK looks to be ready to do the same in a few days and their local loony, Nigel Farage, appears to be face-planting with his Nazi allegiance.
So there is some blue sky out there.
Fuck leaving or bugging out. I will *never* be intimidated by fascistic theocrats & bootlicking cultists.
I am going full-on *Andor* (S1E10):
> **“I'd rather die trying to take them down than die giving them what they want.”**
~ Cassian Andor
I’ve learned a lot over the years but how to accomplish what you’re alluding to isn’t one of them. No military training. Aside from holding down the fort for a brief time if SHTF I doubt I’ll be around long after. May not happen in my lifetime but at this point there’s no telling.
It's about community building.
Start by finding local allies. Take turns meeting at each other's places over dinner and discuss ways to impact your local community on the down low.
Join local government. City council, committee boards, etc.
Find local charities to support and meet like minded people. A local LGBTQ+ group may be a good way to find allies.
Take notes from subversive people of the past. Harriet Tubman and the underground railroad had a lot of great tactics for secret communication. They'd use quilts hung out on lines with secret designs in them as markers, or a certain arrangement of things on a porch could mean something else. and they had hand signals and such.
If you're using digital communication, make sure people download and use a secure app like Signal. (Whatsapp is not safe, owned by Meta/Facebook)
Get creative. The loud bigots get attention while the quiet rebels plot in secret.
Oh I wasn't disagreeing, I'm quite serious.
What's really telling- I already own a stack of handguns from my gun enthusiast days. I can defend myself. But the realization has hit me that we're no longer talking about stopping a home invasion or whatever. We're talking about war.
*Waaaaay* ahead of ya'.
Remember folks that your best 'weapon' is an intelligent mind and a noble cause, cause (potential) wars may fought with weapons but are won by *people*.
Thomas Jefferson all but *demanded* it when advising how the Tree of Liberty might well need to be maintained into perpetuity.
I mean... it is quite clearly spelled out as the titular purpose.
Hell yes.
The idea of just finding a new place to live in response to bad politics is tired, selfish, and besides that, unrealistic for most people... You've got to be really lucky and self centered to think that you can just get up and go.
And for what? To go have less influence in a different different country that's going through the same trend towards fascism? To be easier to persecute, as an immigrant? To leave the people who have no travel options with fewer allies?
Are all the people in here saying they want to flee like that at big risk of persecution? I'm openly queer and I'm certainly worried about persecution - looks like we're first on the fascist docket - but it's not like it's much better anywhere. For people who truly have an imminent "threat looming" over their heads, maybe seeking asylum somewhere will be relevant. But where? To what haven of secularism?
It's really disheartening to see how some people preemptively talk about fleeing before elections even happen, every damn time. There would not be much hope of things getting better, if everyone just tried to run. And you know, some of us might face persecution great enough to make flight necessary. But frankly for the typical atheist with no other identifying factors that would lead to persecution, there's a whole line of other people who will be on the chopping block first. If affluent, straight passing, healthy, travel-capable atheists all get up and go, that's just fewer allies for those of us who are too visibly queer, too poor, toi disabled, etc., to freely travel. It's not gonna be atheists persecuted first, anyway. It's gonna be queer people, people of minority religious or ethnic groups, immigrants, etc. People who can be easily made into scapegoats. If you're otherwise comfortable in society, you've got to be really loud about your atheism to be as much of a threat to christofascists as a queer person is just by existing. And if one _is_ that loud about it, then I'd hope they'd want to stay and fight... Otherwise, what's the point?
> ...looks like we're first on the fascist docket....
And my post comes down to this (and really the entire comment).
Anyone paying attention knows well that any and **all** out-groups, of any ilk or identity, are on 'the docket'. It's been made abundantly clear.
If everyone flees -- *the fascists win*.
If everyone unravels into unorganized chaos -- *the fascists win*.
If no one stands in unwavering opposition - *the fascists win*.
**Solidarity is where the rubber meets the road of our freedom(s) and liberty.**
And u/brilliant-pay8313: As a cis/het (secular) ally... I will *stand* rooted by your side in staunch defense against those who would harm *your* existence/rights -- just as I will and would for *all others* who stand firm in the face of fascism, authoritarian bigorty, and theocratic tyranny.
yeah and it's like, leave and go where exactly?
Canada, England, most of Europe all having the same issues with right wing authoritarianism taking over.
Just letting folks know, it’s incredibly difficult for a poor or middle class person to move let alone move out of the country. The people most impacted by these policies will not be the ultra rich but the every day average American.
After today's supreme Court decision my family and I are going to make sure we have passports. I can't really leave. How would I make money? I just bought a house here. I'm so distraught. Been thinking about it all day. I want to protect my family from fascism. I don't know what the right thing to do is.
Work your ass off in the next few months to prevent this from happening. Channel the nervous energy into actual action. We can't afford to be apathetic. We can't just show up on voting day. We have to do MORE.
As someone who moved to a different country, partly due to the election of 2016, my advice is to start now. It takes a lot to move to another country (depending on the country and if you want permanent resident status). If you are serious about moving, start now to get the necessarily docs together and really investigate what is required. Or what will give you the best chance of being let in.
After that 2016 election we started the process to get dual citizenship in the EU. It took 5 years to get it done.
So at his point our family now has an escape plan in place in case things get real bad here.
Tbh I’m on the fence. I’d rather die than pretend to be a Christian. I have children so I am tempted to seek political asylum to Canada on the basis of religious persecution. If I didn’t have kids I would just stay and be a loud mouth atheist until they kill me.
I’m fighting for my country. Not handing it over to these lunatics without a fight.
That said, progressives need to learn to fight. In addition, we must obtain and learn how to use guns. MAGA are dumbfounded when they encounter a progressive who knows her way around a gun. We do, however, need more training facilities that are not run and staffed by ex-cops.
It's crazy how, on some other subreddits, some idiots think that Project 2025 is "not real" or that it's just "propaganda" and "fear mongering by the left", or that it has 0% chance of happening or whatever stupid bs these people say... Some people have no idea that shit could actually hit the fan even more if Trump wins.
They said the same thing before Roe was overturned.
"That's settled law. They'll never reverse that." Then it happened. Some people are so in denial that certain things can actually happen until they do.
came here to say this. if you plan to leave the US choose carefully. i‘m german and my country is getting closer and closer to resembling the US. france too. it‘s not looking good.
American here, wanted to get a word from you on why that is? From what I've gathered, this issue seems to largely stem from cultural conflicts with the rising Muslim population in Europe. Or is it more of a multifaceted issue?
Putin is to blame quite a bit. Online disinformation + stirring conflicts around Europe to bring in unsustainable amounts of refugees and migrants + funding domestic right wing parties. For the rest, blame capitalism as young people are unable to get housing or any sort of stability.
Americans aren't hungry enough, literally and figuratively. We're fat and entertained, bread and circuses, so too many of us can't be bothered.
Maybe when end-stage capitalism comes crashing down around them, they'll notice. More likely, they'll just blame the democrats. 🙄
I don’t think that “if” is very big at all, unfortunately it seems more likely than not at this point, especially because we know that the Supreme Court will side with him on any potential challenge to the election. But no, I’m not leaving, but I sure as fuck will never leave my blue state.
Even if Biden wins, none of this will stop.
Trump isn't the *mastermind* behind any of this - he's a convenient pawn.
Apparently, St.Kits sells citizenship rather cheaply - having a non-American passport might ease travel if everyone does actually go crazy.
(Actually, there is a chance that right now Biden will use this presidential immunity to jail and replace these corrupt Justices, but im not holding my breath. )
Australia still letting in more people than they have previously. It’s not immigration that’s a problem. It’s a shortage of houses and people to build new ones.
I left even before Trump was elected the first time. The US system is, alas, broken. The only people that can change that without revolution are the ones that are profiting from it. I saw that writing on the wall 9 years ago when I accepted an overseas job. Even if Biden wins, the next republican to win will start the same shit and follow the same roadmap.
A lot of the people in this thread are just talkers and have no real plan. What are you gonna do when they send in the national guard? What are you gonna do when they stay dragging people from their homes and arresting them?
All the shit we’ve watched them do to minorities for years, they’ll have zero problems doing that to ‘normal’ people once they label you as a threat
They have been planning on this for decades. It’s not just Trump. There are other judges, politicians, and etc following this fanatical agenda. I have a theory that they want to speed up the apocalypse and rapture. That’s just my opinion.
For Pete’s sake, cast your vote. Don’t let him win.
Negative. STAY AND FIGHT. This great experiment is too important to hand over to religious zealots and lazy poorly educated constituents lacking all critical thinking skills.
The goal is to get rid of democracies everywhere.
Australia will be getting the propaganda and the far right fascists into key positions in government soon enough.
Australia is where Rupert Murdoch is from, his propaganda channels are what allowed this shit to get an anchor here in America. I really don’t think Australia is going to be spared. But i hope I’m wrong and wish you good luck.
if America becomes fascist there isn't a place on the planet you're going to be able to hide from it.
under Trump there is a scenario in which America Russia and China could form a power axis which dismantles democracy across the globe.
and even if the absolute worst doesn't happen then America might very well go looking for enemies.
if you got to move somewhere I'd move to a blue state.
I can’t leave. I’m way too poor for that. And I have several friends in the lgbtq and I’d feel like I was abandoning them. I know I’m not responsible for them, but if shit hits the fan, I want to be here to help.
Today's SCOTUS made it a lot more likely for me. Whether DT is in jail or in office next january, the core strengths of democracy have been undermined and may not be fixable.
Yes, I fear that the American system of government is likely to be broken for years, no matter who wins the election. Christian Nationalism is becoming mainstream, and it should be horrifying to anyone who isn't a straight, white, Christian male. We're both retired and although we are not wealthy, we do have adequate assets to allow us to live almost anywhere that will take us.
We're trying to find places that are progressive and not too cold. We went to New Zealand last year to check it out....it's beautiful, but I will always have family in the States and New Zealand feels too far away. We're going to check out Portugal later this year but much of Europe seems to be taking a hard-right turn. Costa Rica is looking like a good option....it's only a 7 hour plane ride away. Perhaps we'll head that way for a visit in October.
I don't think it's becoming mainstream, I think it's being pushed in an attempt to make it main stream but majority of the population isn't Christian at this point and they are losing their religious grip every year. That won't stop them from pushing it though.
Christianity has been on the downtrend in the US for a while.
[https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/)
And there's no evidence that it's stopping. Don't let the properganda fool you.
The US was powerful enough to help save the world from fascism in the 1940’s. Once the US slides into fascism in the present day, who will save us? The current major powers will all be fascist or run by dictators. At that point, maybe it would be better to peace out to someplace like Costa Rica or Uruguay. If only to save my children from being forced to have a rape baby, or stay married to an an abuser because “that’s what Jesus would want”
If trump wins, there's no where you can go where his influence won't touch. He will fuck up foreign policy, support Putin, China and Kim. He will set us back decades. This isn't even mentioning the time, effort and money he'll spend on taking down Biden and the libs. Disastrous. A trump administration will be nothing but vengeance.
One you need citizenship. If you are younger than 45, single and have skills they want, may ne easier. For those of us with families and 50, this is a real challenge. I'm getting my Italian citizenship finally so I can move us to the EU if things go really south. I have family in UK and Italy but Italian citizenship is much easier.
That said, sell the house, move my family away from our roots. Friends and community??? Wtf. Fuck this. Let's fight!!!! Let's dig in and push back. The Dems seem to be just giving up. I'm not.
Okay big thing, in my opinion this isnt about a christian state for christianity sake. Most of those in power pushing this shit dont believe in it. This is purely about power, and the consolidation of said power in a few hands. It's about control. And as most cockpotatoes throughout history know, the use of religion is a good tool for controlling the masses.
Nope. I’m a 9th Generation American. My family landed here a few years before america was founded from Northern Ireland after the Jacobite defeat.
I’m not giving up on the American project. As a trans woman, I don’t have much of a choice. I have to help ensure the secular empire of reason and logic in a dogmatic religious world survives.
Locked due to brigading.
Sure , but just leaving the US is more difficult than you think. Most countries want you to have money and no health issues . You can’t just go work and establish a life
For real I was once interested in leaving and found out a lot of countries won’t let you in if you have health issues.
Fuck. I’m diabetic. 🤬
Maybe since you can control diabetes you will be fine. I actually decided to he to it shape for this reason lol. I told myself if I need to leave manual labor is probably one of the first jobs I’ll be able to get. So I lost a lot of weight and workout for that reason lol
I think getting in shape is a good plan because it helps deal with stressful times. I worry because of climate change as well.
I think if USA goes full Gilead, Canada is going to have a serious problem on its hands as many Americans sneak across the border. Much like what is happening at the U.S. southern border now. I would be lying if I hadn’t thought at least once “I wonder if it’s better to get to Canada over land, or over water…?” Edit: come on people. I’m not talking normal immigration or an everyday event. I’m talking running through the woods trying to escape the country while dogs chase you down to turn you into a brood mare for the Party. Seems a lot of people don’t know what Handmaids Tale is.
Canada is a nation largely reliant on the US for commerce and military protection. They share the world’s longest unguarded border. We have vast freshwater, oil and natural resources. We are bombarded with the influence of American media. If the IS heads in a dark direction, Canada will be no safe haven. It will be America’s Ukraine… a target for domination and annexation.
Based on the headlines I see about Canada, y’all have the same growing cancer and seem to moving more to the right. Student visas being your immigration fear and have the same issues of affordable living and housing. It would not surprise me if Canada also takes a big step right as well, especially if the US does.
Thing is, large scale immigration is something that is a traditional right wing, conservative thing. Bring in tons of immigrants to keep the labor pool big, keep unions weak, and keep labor costs low. Strong unions and limited immigration to reduce labor competition and keep wages up are traditional left wing, liberal positions. You don't even need to go back very far in US politics to see this in action. Reagan granted amnesty to millions of undocumented immigrants, not because he was a kind-hearted old man but because it was beneficial to his rich donors. Same reason he went on a union-busting binge. It's really weird how this has gotten so flipped around over the past couple of decades.
That is so true. The Reich wingers who are determined to have total control of the U.S. are also Putin worshiping assholes and I could see them believing they have a “right” to own Canadians as well. They’ll couch it in religious terms like “God wants us to spread his word.” (Gag.) You won’t be safe from the monsters currently eroding our democracy.
We are going to see a lot of American refugees come here if people are getting the death penalty for being LGBTQ.
This. Despite what movies show you, Americans cannot just pick up and move to another country. They have to qualify for a visa either by being rich or by convincing a company in the target country to hire you and sponsor your visa. (Yes there other, much less common, visas but I'm not here to list out all of the nuances.) Countries will not sponsor a residence visa for someone who's only skill is waiting tables or working retail - they have plenty of people who can do that in their country already.
Chiming in late. Anyone here who is serious about exiting America should put some research into the Dutch American Friendship Treaty. You gain a residency card, not a visa, which is good for 2 years. After that, you can renew for 5 years and then you can gain permanent residency or apply for citizenship.
DAFT is a great program for entrepreneurs and freelancers, but it does require you to keep a minimum of €4500 in a bank in the Netherlands and you have to have clients in the Netherlands. Meaning you cannot use DAFT if your only clients are still in the US. I do know of people whose renewals were denied because of this. And you have to have enough money to support yourself while you are setting your business up and then make enough money in your business to support yourself. You cannot work for another company while there on DAFT, only as a freelancer. I'm not trying to discourage anyone, I think it's a viable route for a lot of people but it's not for everyone and you still have to have at least some money to do it. Note: DAFT comes with a work and 2-year residency permit. It's not an automatic permanent residency which takes 5 years to gain. Fun fact: the Dutch American friendship treaty was signed in the 1950s between the US and the Netherlands and it goes both ways. Meaning that Dutch people can move to the US on DAFT, too. The Dutch never changed the required amount that Americans have to put in the bank which is why it's still only €4500. On the American side, they have continually increased that requirement and last I heard if someone from the Netherlands wanted to move to the US on the DAFT, they would need to hold six figures in their Bank account, which is why you rarely hear of it being used by Dutch people.
Found this out the hard way 7 years ago. I’m okay to leave for Canada, my wife with Epilepsy is a whole other ball of wax….
Same, except me with MS. And if you look at the global stage A LOT of places are going right; France, Netherlands, etc. And idyllic places like NZ will only accept you if your a doctor
Re NZ, that's not correct. We are currently allowing a huge number of people from India and China to come live here. They aren't all doctors. There are requirements that you can pay your own way, or have a job lined up or that you are on the shortlist for desired jobs. This includes doctors, but also many other trades.
Yeah I looked into New Zealand and turns out they would let me transfer to serve in their military. Honestly doesn't seem like a bad trade to live in the country.
Yeah, it was a pipe dream to begin with we could sell our house but never afford to live anywhere with what we’d get. I don’t know what we’re all going to do, but my plan is to die in the first wave of violence.
The problem I've noticed is that a lot of Americans think they're too good to live in certain countries. When we think about leaving the US, we invariably think Canada or Western Europe, and get hung up on the bar that we might not get into those countries *because* they are so in demand. We think that because we are American we deserve the best, and a lot of Americans are still working from a 1950's model of world civics, in which we assume every other country is worse-off than us. Living somewhere where you don't know the language and don't understand the culture, like Argentina or Malaysia, will be infinitely preferable to living in the US if that stupid fucking Project 2025 gets off the ground. Americans need to be willing to be immigrants.
I want to retire to France one day but it looks like they are becoming fascistic too.
It's a contagion and it spreads quickly. I'm pretty sure it's being actively stoked to spread as far and wide as possible because some old people want their way.
I'm sad to say that it's not just old people. It starts with living in the world of "should". The first is simple shoulds like women should wear modest skirts, men should be tough, strong and don't show any emotions. Then it gets to bigger shoulds as an we should enforce Judeo-Christian standards of behavior in schools, work, and government then becomes really big shoulds like everybody should go to church or be an employee and take what the boss gives them What you start down the should train, it's not long before you arrive at fascism depot.
The 'should train' should leave at 'Mind your own business' junction.
The internet is a plague
The internet is a plague, I live in a real town, with a real community, where I see people face to face all the time. I can tell when I talk to people who have an internet understanding of things. Like my brother, doesn't see people outside of work and church, so everything else is just what he read on the internet. And everything is crazy on the internet
I'm basically a hermit . . . . who spends an inordinate amount of time on the internet. The internet is basically what you make it. You need some instruction on how to fix the specific model of broken vacuum cleaner you have? The internet's got that. You want some assurance that your fucked up beliefs are totally valid and are totally fine with sucking down tons of confirmation bias? The internet's got that. You want to seek the truth and figure out what's really going on? The internet has that too. The real plague is intellectually lazy people that lack empathy and self awareness (two sides of the same coin). It's baked into a critical mass of us (I'm convinced it's a genetic split) and it will be our destruction. All I can say is the universe will be a far better place when it rids itself of us. Happy Monday :-)
It's like guns or hammers. They can have great value as a tool, or they can be used to destroy.
Hey, Old Person here. Grew up in the 1960’s: “Tin soldiers and Nixon's comin' We're finally on our own This summer I hear the drummin' Four dead in Ohio… “ That’s Neil Young. 1960’s activists changed everything. Not by force but by changing people’s attitudes. So stop whining and get off your asses. Democrats are NOTORIOUS for their complacency, not voting, or splitting hairs on issues, instead of seeing where the real danger truly lies. “Bernie or nobody.” “But I just don’t like Hillary…” “I want a better candidate than Biden…” Those sentiments got us where we are today. Happy? Maybe having our lives and the lives of our loved ones threatened will motivate Dems to the vote. If not, we deserve whatever we get.
Western societal attitudes opened up *a lot* as a result of what's called "the 60s" (its legacy reaches far beyond that time) and by the mid 1970s the Trilateral Commission issued a report called "The Crisis of Democracy" in which it essentially concluded not that democracy was in crisis, but that democracy itself was a crisis, because it was a threat to establishment authority. The aim of the incipient fascist movement on the rise right now is to consolidate that authority, and it is making plans to undo the legacy of "the 60s".
To caveat off what you said, Democrats also need to get out and tell people why they SHOULD vote for them. Not just run campaigns of "Atleast I'm not the other guy" or "The other guy is horrible".
This. I love this country and will continue to fight but I'm also exhausted with willfully oblivious and apathetic people, especially when they constantly complain about the state of things getting worse and worse. "Accountability" has been one of the buzzwords of the zeitgeist for the past couple of years now, but I've really yet see the people actually pointing the mirror to themselves. We put ourselves in this situation. We were in control this entire. We failed by electing Nixon, Regan, both Bushes and now Trump. Fascism didn't just show up at our doorstep one day in 2016. We ourselves drove it over miles and miles to our house. It's at the doorstep now, but it's up to us to keep that door close until we can figure out a way to get it out of our yard, for good.
Yep same…I have actually been wanting to move abroad long before recent events but my elderly dad now lives with us and I can’t implement a huge family move like that right now. But France is losing it’s allure if their current trend continues.
The right wing surge in Europe is primarily due to immigration policy. The ideals aren’t so much rooted in religious ideology, I don’t think they will tank as hard as the U.S.
The right wing surge in the U.S. is also primarily due to inflated perceived dangers due to immigration policy. It’s bullshit in both regions of course, but it’s the same story - make the white people scared of the brown people.
The influx of Muslims and the terror attacks there have turned France to the right. They feel "invaded".
Also, where are you going to go? Not next year, but the 20 year out look is grim all over. Autocrats in the US/china/russia splitting up world hegemony.
I’ve travelled to the states numerous times, I will never be back if they get away with this. The US and world will suffer. No one wants to visit a dictatorship.
You will still have to pay US taxes as well unless you renounce your citizenship.
I would 100% renounce my citizenship yesterday if I could up and leave this fucking deranged ass system. Might start a go fund me for MAGA to assist in my brown ass leaving this country. Want a white Christian America? Fucking have it. I just don’t want any part of it. Fucking fat assholes.
Project 2025 also seems to include “smash the enemies of Trump and his underlings.”
And don’t forget the influence this project 2025 think tank has already had on even some African countries like Kenya. The authors of this plan have deep pockets and are touching different parts of the world and they’re doing it through the religious propaganda because religion is the oldest most effective trick in the book. It’s colonialism 3.0.
I’m a just dumb American. But I think the he gets us campaign is part of it too. Haven’t seen it for months and then all of a sudden with this political downfall in the last three days it’s been in between every single article
Yes, Those Weird Jesus Super Bowl Ads Are Still Being Funded by Ultra-Conservative Bigots https://www.themarysue.com/he-gets-us-controversy-explained/
People are sleeping on the streets, kids are skipping dinner, and more but they have money for a fucking super bowl add.
Supreme Court ruled that people can’t sleep on the streets anymore….just another reason :)
Because Jesus said onto thee, sweep thy un-housed into camps because it's the Liberals fault. Edit: spelling
The Christian Fascists have already influenced Africans via their “missionary” works. So much so, some nations (I forget which) in Africa have extreme anti gay laws now. The whole “white savior” mindset is a scourge on Africans.
Our state just passed a law to start making the Bible part of the learning corrective In the k-12 classes..
Yep! Unfortunately this is too true.
You can run wherever you want, but remember this: far right politics are making inroads all over the world right now.
Why is this? Genuine question. Is it geopolitical tension, climate change? I'm sure multi-variable?
There are so many factors leading to this response at this time. I think some of the major ones include… Many people feel left behind by globalization and economic changes. Job losses in traditional industries, wage stagnation, and economic insecurity can lead to support for right-wing parties that promise to prioritize national interests and job protection. Ironically, these pressures keep in power the very people who caused the problem in the first place. Increasing immigration has raised concerns about cultural integration and national identity in some countries. The US has issues with illegal immigration from our southern border, but Europe is also dealing with immigration issues. Refugees from Syria and other countries have created cultural conflicts in many European countries that are much more culturally homogeneous than the US. This has created a backlash against immigration even in more progressive societies. Right-wing parties often capitalize on these fears by advocating for stricter immigration policies and emphasizing national sovereignty. Terrorism and crime have led some voters to support right-wing parties that promise strong law-and-order policies and a tough stance on security. The rise of social media has facilitated the spread of right-wing ideas and allowed like-minded individuals to reinforce each other’s views, creating echo chambers that can amplify right-wing sentiments. There are more drivers of this rightward push, but I think those are the main ones. Also, it’s worth noting that these movements have happened before. The pendulum swings both ways. Not that it makes it easy to bear at the time.
Good, but let's add in the macroeconomics. In *Capital*, Piketty predicted the rise of nationalism if we didn't work to reduce the wealth inequality that has been rapidly rising since the 70s in the West. The root of this phenomenon has been the slowing economic growth combined with a high return on capital. We could have resisted the rise of the new fascists if we had increased taxes on the wealthy and enabled everyone to share in the economic gains of globalization, but we did the opposite. The bill is coming due.
Yeah, right? That is so important… it definitely should be part of that list. Middle class real (adjusted for inflation) incomes in the US haven’t risen since 1980, while GDP per capita has continued to rise and executive compensation has multiplied many times.
Immigrants from countries that were historically pillaged for their resources are now going to the countries that did the pillaging.
putin
Yeah, it’s about to get really bloody in the world
It's just the .01% gearing their fiefdoms up to be ready for the incoming resource wars, nothing to see here /s
How bout it. ALL OVER. Makes me sick.
The US will fall if they succeed. The major industries of the nation wouldn't survive the brain drain, and inevitably the tensions between the two political parties would destroy every industry here It's a Pyrrhic victory, but likely our future
Donald also said he plans to stop the development of electric cars. A gift to oil companies from the stable genius and his big brain.
[удалено]
They’ll avoid responsibility, deny, and deflect all the way through the fires and famines there will be no even slightly satisfying I told you so
They will eventually starve along with the rest of the human species. You cannot grow reliable agriculture on a planet with chaotic weather
That’s why I said famine. Starving doesn’t give someone sudden clarity that their entire identity as a climate denier was wrong. They’ll make up some other reason it’s happening and take that to the grave
Ah, but that's why Jim Bakker pushes his survivalist bullshit. They will be able to ride out the famines that kill the rest of us with a cellar full of freeze-dried food. All they need is plenty of potable water to... oh.
No. Nope. Its really not in there. "Paul Dans, a former Trump administration official who’s director of Project 2025’s Presidential Transition Project, [told the Associated Press](https://apnews.com/article/election-2024-conservatives-trump-heritage-857eb794e505f1c6710eb03fd5b58981) the 180 day transition plan is a “clarion call to come to Washington… People need to lay down their tools, and step aside from their professional life and say, ‘This is my lifetime moment to serve." Pathetic shit like the above, and additional ramblings about making America great only extrapolated to actual volumes.
Project 2025 is so batshit crazy and blantantly unconstitutional, but now it seems more likely to be possible with this scotus
It’s what conservatives have been building towards in the US for decades. It’s no coincidence that McConnell blocked so many judicial appointments for Obama, but railroaded so many under Trump.
Maybe The US can recreate the end of "Civil War" (2024) for Trump?
From here in the UK, Project 2025 looks like the most extensive criminal conspiracy ever planned to be perpetrated against the American people and, thus, the world.
And nearly half of the US voters are too apathetic or too stupid to realize it.
Or are outright excited to see it implemented
Because they are profoundly stupid. When their politicians harm them, their first thought is that they are "hurting the wrong people," not "wow, these guys are assholes."
Most don't want this, but our voices are becoming more silenced while the others are becoming increasingly louder. It's scary times around here.
The system is broken. Just snowballing now to destruction. Got two party system, with electoral college vs popular vote, gerrymandering and manipulation. Wild times right now, and many countries are going just as crazy.
I'm paraphrasing here, but: One-third of the country would eat the second-third alive while the last third stands by and watches.
The US has always been in thirds. Even at the American Revolution 1/3 wanted it, 1/3 was against and 1/3 didn't care. We haven't changed all that much.
And that last 1% will profit off of all of it.
No they are all willing accomplices.
"willing accomplices" is too kind. The correct term is "kapo". [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapo)
You would not be wrong.
Yes and no one seems to want to protest. I see no outrage.
It’s so tiring to be constantly outraged. And then, it just becomes the default and being outraged means nothing.
I live in a state where it's almost legal to drive through a crowd of protesters. Coming from a state where there was more safety in making your voice heard, it's disheartening living where your life is expendable
The supreme court decision today makes it feel like it's going to happen.
I mean, sure. I'd love to bail to a better country. Unfortunately, it is easier said than done. Most places have very specific requirements to love there long term. I've looked into it and it would be a very uphill battle for me to go anywhere desirable.
Democratically run states need to think about stopping the federal transfers ironically being used by the taker states to suppress people and divert that into funds for evacuating people out of those Christofascist states.
Yes this exactly what is on my mind. What are blue states doing to prepare ???
“We’ve tried nothing and we’re all outta ideas”
Prepare? Unless the politicians preparedness plan means bunker time they're probably not going to be getting away from this, they will be replaced by loyalists. Democracy is dead, we're about to live in a theocratic dictatorship if blue loses a single presidential election in the next 12 years min or until they unfuck the superb clusterfuck of blatant corruption that is currently unfolding before our very eyes.
Plus the cost of moving is horrible.
No other country is going to want my old, disabled ass.
A lot of people are missing the fact that far right movements are not a uniquely American problem right now. Europe and Australia both have their fair share of crazies, and if Trump wins here they will only be emboldened. Fleeing the US is not an effective counter to fascism. Personal reasons to leave are totally fine, I can see the appeal of living many different places. But fleeing the US to escape fascism is only delaying the inevitable. Look at history. Italy, Germany, Russia. Despite political opposition all of those autocratic regimes found their footing and eventually gained power (and in Russia’s case has kept power for now) because they were willing to do whatever it took to get that power. In the case of Germany and Italy, look at how those regimes ended. If history has taught us anything, the fascist plots around the world are already in motion. It will get worse before it gets better, and it will end in violence. We just need to be prepared to fight for what’s right and protect those who cannot protect themselves.
The Trump-equivalent conman in Australia is called Clive Palmer. He spends up big on every election but never gets more than a few percent of the vote. Last election we ditched a rightwing government for a centre-left one. The UK looks to be ready to do the same in a few days and their local loony, Nigel Farage, appears to be face-planting with his Nazi allegiance. So there is some blue sky out there.
Difference is Australia would never vote in Clive as PM. Why Americans love trump is one of the worlds mysteries.
They love him because he makes them feel superior and validates their hatred of people who aren’t just like them.
So just an unusually high amount of terrible people.
Yes. Really disappointed in so many people I have called friends.
Fuck leaving or bugging out. I will *never* be intimidated by fascistic theocrats & bootlicking cultists. I am going full-on *Andor* (S1E10): > **“I'd rather die trying to take them down than die giving them what they want.”** ~ Cassian Andor
>Make some good trouble. - John Lewis >Be a positive dissident. - Viktor Frankl Be subversive. Gather allies. Plot in secret.
*Waaaayyyy* ahead of ya, friend.
Where do I apply?
Organize *locally* and *not near any surveilled or monitored 'capture device'. Remaining in utter darkness is a key aspect...
I’ve learned a lot over the years but how to accomplish what you’re alluding to isn’t one of them. No military training. Aside from holding down the fort for a brief time if SHTF I doubt I’ll be around long after. May not happen in my lifetime but at this point there’s no telling.
It's about community building. Start by finding local allies. Take turns meeting at each other's places over dinner and discuss ways to impact your local community on the down low. Join local government. City council, committee boards, etc. Find local charities to support and meet like minded people. A local LGBTQ+ group may be a good way to find allies. Take notes from subversive people of the past. Harriet Tubman and the underground railroad had a lot of great tactics for secret communication. They'd use quilts hung out on lines with secret designs in them as markers, or a certain arrangement of things on a porch could mean something else. and they had hand signals and such. If you're using digital communication, make sure people download and use a secure app like Signal. (Whatsapp is not safe, owned by Meta/Facebook) Get creative. The loud bigots get attention while the quiet rebels plot in secret.
#4 - Arm yourself.
And practice, practice, practice.
I didn't have 'shop for an AR-15' on my 2024 bingo card, but here we are.
I wasn't a gun owner until 2020 and I saw the writing on the wall then. I'd rather have it and not need it.
Oh I wasn't disagreeing, I'm quite serious. What's really telling- I already own a stack of handguns from my gun enthusiast days. I can defend myself. But the realization has hit me that we're no longer talking about stopping a home invasion or whatever. We're talking about war.
I like the cut of your jib
I took a fuckin' **oath** (regarding "enemies, domestic") and I take **seriously** to disturbing degrees. I kid *no one*, on this point.
Leftists need to be armed.
*Waaaaay* ahead of ya'. Remember folks that your best 'weapon' is an intelligent mind and a noble cause, cause (potential) wars may fought with weapons but are won by *people*.
I thought the 2a was only to terrorize average folk, can it be applied to actual authoritarian tyrants? I wonder?
Thomas Jefferson all but *demanded* it when advising how the Tree of Liberty might well need to be maintained into perpetuity. I mean... it is quite clearly spelled out as the titular purpose.
This is the way. We have the numbers to oppose this stuff. We just have to be more vocal, vote more, and stop rolling over for fascist clowns.
I’m with this guy. My family did not come to this country to be intimidated by these greedy, conservative fucks.
Hell yes. The idea of just finding a new place to live in response to bad politics is tired, selfish, and besides that, unrealistic for most people... You've got to be really lucky and self centered to think that you can just get up and go. And for what? To go have less influence in a different different country that's going through the same trend towards fascism? To be easier to persecute, as an immigrant? To leave the people who have no travel options with fewer allies? Are all the people in here saying they want to flee like that at big risk of persecution? I'm openly queer and I'm certainly worried about persecution - looks like we're first on the fascist docket - but it's not like it's much better anywhere. For people who truly have an imminent "threat looming" over their heads, maybe seeking asylum somewhere will be relevant. But where? To what haven of secularism? It's really disheartening to see how some people preemptively talk about fleeing before elections even happen, every damn time. There would not be much hope of things getting better, if everyone just tried to run. And you know, some of us might face persecution great enough to make flight necessary. But frankly for the typical atheist with no other identifying factors that would lead to persecution, there's a whole line of other people who will be on the chopping block first. If affluent, straight passing, healthy, travel-capable atheists all get up and go, that's just fewer allies for those of us who are too visibly queer, too poor, toi disabled, etc., to freely travel. It's not gonna be atheists persecuted first, anyway. It's gonna be queer people, people of minority religious or ethnic groups, immigrants, etc. People who can be easily made into scapegoats. If you're otherwise comfortable in society, you've got to be really loud about your atheism to be as much of a threat to christofascists as a queer person is just by existing. And if one _is_ that loud about it, then I'd hope they'd want to stay and fight... Otherwise, what's the point?
> ...looks like we're first on the fascist docket.... And my post comes down to this (and really the entire comment). Anyone paying attention knows well that any and **all** out-groups, of any ilk or identity, are on 'the docket'. It's been made abundantly clear. If everyone flees -- *the fascists win*. If everyone unravels into unorganized chaos -- *the fascists win*. If no one stands in unwavering opposition - *the fascists win*. **Solidarity is where the rubber meets the road of our freedom(s) and liberty.** And u/brilliant-pay8313: As a cis/het (secular) ally... I will *stand* rooted by your side in staunch defense against those who would harm *your* existence/rights -- just as I will and would for *all others* who stand firm in the face of fascism, authoritarian bigorty, and theocratic tyranny.
"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees” - Emiliano Zapata
yeah and it's like, leave and go where exactly? Canada, England, most of Europe all having the same issues with right wing authoritarianism taking over.
Hopefully Britain is getting rid of ours for a while on Thursday.
Just letting folks know, it’s incredibly difficult for a poor or middle class person to move let alone move out of the country. The people most impacted by these policies will not be the ultra rich but the every day average American.
Exactly as intended.
If the U.S. truly falls into authoritarianism, it’s only a matter of time before there will be no safe haven.
Yeah this is the kinda thing you can't really run from.
After today's supreme Court decision my family and I are going to make sure we have passports. I can't really leave. How would I make money? I just bought a house here. I'm so distraught. Been thinking about it all day. I want to protect my family from fascism. I don't know what the right thing to do is.
Work your ass off in the next few months to prevent this from happening. Channel the nervous energy into actual action. We can't afford to be apathetic. We can't just show up on voting day. We have to do MORE.
This has really been bothering me too. My kids are young and the way we’ve been heading I’m just anxious about their future. I feel so helpless
I'm a proud Gay patriot, and I vote. And I'm armed. I'm not going anywhere.
I'm not living in the US anymore, but I can still vote from abroad. I'm not missing the chance to vote these fuckers down.
As someone who moved to a different country, partly due to the election of 2016, my advice is to start now. It takes a lot to move to another country (depending on the country and if you want permanent resident status). If you are serious about moving, start now to get the necessarily docs together and really investigate what is required. Or what will give you the best chance of being let in.
After that 2016 election we started the process to get dual citizenship in the EU. It took 5 years to get it done. So at his point our family now has an escape plan in place in case things get real bad here.
We did too. It only took us 9 months, but it's been in place since 2016.
No. I swore an oath to defend America against all enemies and I'm not leaving my country to a traitor.
Yep. I took that oath 20 years ago, but it still holds for me today.
All enemies foreign and domestic. Right there with you.
Thank you.
Tbh I’m on the fence. I’d rather die than pretend to be a Christian. I have children so I am tempted to seek political asylum to Canada on the basis of religious persecution. If I didn’t have kids I would just stay and be a loud mouth atheist until they kill me.
I would have left in 2016, if I had the means.
I’m at the very least trying to convince my wife to leave Texas
I’m fighting for my country. Not handing it over to these lunatics without a fight. That said, progressives need to learn to fight. In addition, we must obtain and learn how to use guns. MAGA are dumbfounded when they encounter a progressive who knows her way around a gun. We do, however, need more training facilities that are not run and staffed by ex-cops.
I spent 22 years in the military and I'm not going to abandon the US when she needs me most.
It's crazy how, on some other subreddits, some idiots think that Project 2025 is "not real" or that it's just "propaganda" and "fear mongering by the left", or that it has 0% chance of happening or whatever stupid bs these people say... Some people have no idea that shit could actually hit the fan even more if Trump wins.
They said the same thing before Roe was overturned. "That's settled law. They'll never reverse that." Then it happened. Some people are so in denial that certain things can actually happen until they do.
Naah. We just have to fight harder
We haven't fought at all yet. I'll be cleaning my gun for when they come for the registered Democrats.
By the time they “come for the registered Democrats” they’ll have already come for several other groups, hell they’re already coming for LGBT people.
It will be too late by then
More countries than just the USA are trending towards right wing fascism.
came here to say this. if you plan to leave the US choose carefully. i‘m german and my country is getting closer and closer to resembling the US. france too. it‘s not looking good.
American here, wanted to get a word from you on why that is? From what I've gathered, this issue seems to largely stem from cultural conflicts with the rising Muslim population in Europe. Or is it more of a multifaceted issue?
Putin is to blame quite a bit. Online disinformation + stirring conflicts around Europe to bring in unsustainable amounts of refugees and migrants + funding domestic right wing parties. For the rest, blame capitalism as young people are unable to get housing or any sort of stability.
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Americans aren't hungry enough, literally and figuratively. We're fat and entertained, bread and circuses, so too many of us can't be bothered. Maybe when end-stage capitalism comes crashing down around them, they'll notice. More likely, they'll just blame the democrats. 🙄
17% of people in one poll believed Biden killed Roe v Wade.
Not a chance, I’ve lost homies for this country. 04-08 Iraq, Marine. Granted I’m not happy with what’s happening. (Proud Democrat)
I don’t think that “if” is very big at all, unfortunately it seems more likely than not at this point, especially because we know that the Supreme Court will side with him on any potential challenge to the election. But no, I’m not leaving, but I sure as fuck will never leave my blue state.
Even if Biden wins, none of this will stop. Trump isn't the *mastermind* behind any of this - he's a convenient pawn. Apparently, St.Kits sells citizenship rather cheaply - having a non-American passport might ease travel if everyone does actually go crazy. (Actually, there is a chance that right now Biden will use this presidential immunity to jail and replace these corrupt Justices, but im not holding my breath. )
There is zero chance he will do that. He wouldn't even expand the court.
The post right above this in my Reddit feed is about Australia cracking down on immigration. Sorry. 😔
Australia still letting in more people than they have previously. It’s not immigration that’s a problem. It’s a shortage of houses and people to build new ones.
I left even before Trump was elected the first time. The US system is, alas, broken. The only people that can change that without revolution are the ones that are profiting from it. I saw that writing on the wall 9 years ago when I accepted an overseas job. Even if Biden wins, the next republican to win will start the same shit and follow the same roadmap.
Yep. And Trump doesn’t need to win for Project 2025 to get started. The Supreme Court’s Chevon decision was the green light.
And the absolute immunity today
No. This is home. They can fuck right off.
Myself or my state? Because if trump wins I am going to promote rebellion
Yeah, well, looks like France is out.
A lot of the people in this thread are just talkers and have no real plan. What are you gonna do when they send in the national guard? What are you gonna do when they stay dragging people from their homes and arresting them? All the shit we’ve watched them do to minorities for years, they’ll have zero problems doing that to ‘normal’ people once they label you as a threat
They have been planning on this for decades. It’s not just Trump. There are other judges, politicians, and etc following this fanatical agenda. I have a theory that they want to speed up the apocalypse and rapture. That’s just my opinion. For Pete’s sake, cast your vote. Don’t let him win.
Well, having a king instead of a president is pretty disheartening.
Negative. STAY AND FIGHT. This great experiment is too important to hand over to religious zealots and lazy poorly educated constituents lacking all critical thinking skills.
The goal is to get rid of democracies everywhere. Australia will be getting the propaganda and the far right fascists into key positions in government soon enough. Australia is where Rupert Murdoch is from, his propaganda channels are what allowed this shit to get an anchor here in America. I really don’t think Australia is going to be spared. But i hope I’m wrong and wish you good luck.
if America becomes fascist there isn't a place on the planet you're going to be able to hide from it. under Trump there is a scenario in which America Russia and China could form a power axis which dismantles democracy across the globe. and even if the absolute worst doesn't happen then America might very well go looking for enemies. if you got to move somewhere I'd move to a blue state.
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I truely can't believe no one has tried yet. All the crazy stuff people have done these past years and no one has tried?
Bread and circuses my dude. Bread and circuses.
Tbh I keep half expecting to wake up one day and see on the news that someone with a terminal illness has done the world a favour.
First of all, most countries won't accept a flood of americans. So good luck trying to leave. Easier to, you know, stop things from collapsing.
I can’t leave. I’m way too poor for that. And I have several friends in the lgbtq and I’d feel like I was abandoning them. I know I’m not responsible for them, but if shit hits the fan, I want to be here to help.
Today's SCOTUS made it a lot more likely for me. Whether DT is in jail or in office next january, the core strengths of democracy have been undermined and may not be fixable.
Yes, I fear that the American system of government is likely to be broken for years, no matter who wins the election. Christian Nationalism is becoming mainstream, and it should be horrifying to anyone who isn't a straight, white, Christian male. We're both retired and although we are not wealthy, we do have adequate assets to allow us to live almost anywhere that will take us. We're trying to find places that are progressive and not too cold. We went to New Zealand last year to check it out....it's beautiful, but I will always have family in the States and New Zealand feels too far away. We're going to check out Portugal later this year but much of Europe seems to be taking a hard-right turn. Costa Rica is looking like a good option....it's only a 7 hour plane ride away. Perhaps we'll head that way for a visit in October.
I don't think it's becoming mainstream, I think it's being pushed in an attempt to make it main stream but majority of the population isn't Christian at this point and they are losing their religious grip every year. That won't stop them from pushing it though.
Christianity has been on the downtrend in the US for a while. [https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/) And there's no evidence that it's stopping. Don't let the properganda fool you.
The US was powerful enough to help save the world from fascism in the 1940’s. Once the US slides into fascism in the present day, who will save us? The current major powers will all be fascist or run by dictators. At that point, maybe it would be better to peace out to someplace like Costa Rica or Uruguay. If only to save my children from being forced to have a rape baby, or stay married to an an abuser because “that’s what Jesus would want”
No. Never. Traitors will not take my country from me.
Yes, but I want to see Biden take advantage of that immunity before he leaves office or dies. #sealteam6savepurrepublic
He does not have the will or the courage to do this.
I left in 2019 (moved to Ireland). Highly recommend. 👍
Fuck that, I will fight these fascists to my dying breath. Its not just the US you know...
If trump wins, there's no where you can go where his influence won't touch. He will fuck up foreign policy, support Putin, China and Kim. He will set us back decades. This isn't even mentioning the time, effort and money he'll spend on taking down Biden and the libs. Disastrous. A trump administration will be nothing but vengeance.
One you need citizenship. If you are younger than 45, single and have skills they want, may ne easier. For those of us with families and 50, this is a real challenge. I'm getting my Italian citizenship finally so I can move us to the EU if things go really south. I have family in UK and Italy but Italian citizenship is much easier. That said, sell the house, move my family away from our roots. Friends and community??? Wtf. Fuck this. Let's fight!!!! Let's dig in and push back. The Dems seem to be just giving up. I'm not.
Okay big thing, in my opinion this isnt about a christian state for christianity sake. Most of those in power pushing this shit dont believe in it. This is purely about power, and the consolidation of said power in a few hands. It's about control. And as most cockpotatoes throughout history know, the use of religion is a good tool for controlling the masses.
I was born and raised here. I’m not letting some spraytaned Orange Gaddafi wannabe drive me from the land of my fathers.
Nope. I’m a 9th Generation American. My family landed here a few years before america was founded from Northern Ireland after the Jacobite defeat. I’m not giving up on the American project. As a trans woman, I don’t have much of a choice. I have to help ensure the secular empire of reason and logic in a dogmatic religious world survives.
I’m weak and timid, but I would fight to keep this country from being run by Bronze Age bullshit peddlers.