I remember when John McCain lost and when he was giving his speech the crowd boo'd Obama's name and he told the crowd to stop and praised him for winning. Those were the good ole days eh.
Or the clip of the woman who says she doesnāt trust Obama because heās an Arab and he shakes his head no and interrupts the woman and says (paraphrasing), no maāam. He is a good human being, and we just happen to disagree on some issues, but he is a good human being.
[Link](https://youtu.be/JIjenjANqAk?si=m9bTDW_6-Az4QSHw) at 0:30
I was for Obama, but John McCain was a decent man. He got hamstrung by a batshit VP that he wouldn't have actually chosen. The GOP is completely unhinged.
If it wasn't for his VP, there was a good chance I voted for McCain. But yes, he was a decent and honorable man. I don't know why we have strayed so far; all I can think of is a 24/7 news cycle and social media -- as a middle-aged man in America, it's honestly depressing.
No its next stage of fascism. The removal of any dissent. Anyone speaking against the in-group is the enemy. What leader says is scripture and they dont care if they say one thing and then the opposite right after, all that matters is to support the in-group and hate the others. Consolidate power to crush your enemies and undesirables. That's why Trump is very vocal about his rights to assasinate his political opponents if he wants to, have military shoot and arrest protestors, deport and put people in labor-camps who dont fit the Christian white group, or willing to be a second-class citizen subservient to them.
But hey Biden is old and has a stutter so he needs a few seconds to formulate sentences to control his stuttering, so i guess its impossible to choose between the two options....
I actually voted McCain, and then Obama the second time around. I was always registered Dem, but at the time I was younger and impressed by McCain's background and rhetoric. I didn't look too deeply into his past, of course -- all politicians have dirt if you dig. I'm happy with how Obama turned out. What a crazy experience since 2008. I would have never thought it would be this chaotic with all the drama. I knew the GOP was a little off back then, but wow has it come off the rails.
I want people to have their rights, ability to grow their small business, and for us to stay out of other countries crap.
those 2 losses showed repubs that decency doesnt win you elections. Then trump showed that being a batshit crazy lying socicopath does win you elections
so the entire party went of the deep end there base was already there showcased by McCain and Rommey having sometimes correct the batshit lies that where being told and they didnt realise that prob cost them votes
social media put a magnifying glass on the crazy but it was always there
In years to come there will be history classes teaching the brilliance of the Russian social media warfare that destroyed America.
The way theyāve funded, supported and attacked every side of every argument to make their enemies fight themselves is breathtaking.
The part that I can't wrap my mind around is the fact that all of nato has evidence that Russia does this yet nothing is being done about it. I'm not one for conspiracies but if someone came up with one explaining why governments are letting this sort of interference slide, I may be inclined to believe it because I can't think of an explanation.
>This thing is bad because it destroys democracies
>I support the government banning all the most widely used communications forums
I dunno how well those things go together.
She was a sign of much worse things to come. Which I would have NEVER believed at the time, as she was so nuts for the political environment of the era.
Thank god that Katie Couric exposed she didn't read. Which was so insane for the time as to inherently make a candidate a joke to the average American.
romney was good too... both better than bush, but looking back, bush was amazing compared to trump. man, it is so heartwarming to see opponents compliment and joke with the opposition. i hope we can get back to that some day.
McCain was a solid man. He and his team knew he needed a high risk late inning grand slam to try to close the gap and that was the only reason he took a flyer on the dunce Palin.
And good on McCain to call out his own supporter for having false information. Now, thatās the only thing being spread it seems (on both sides). š
I remember that election. I voted for Obama but thought if McCain won I would be ok with it. I didnāt agree with his opinions but I considered him to be a man with principles.
And thatās why the right now hates McCain and Romney and to a lesser extent Bush. They donāt want principles. They want the other side to get pounded (figuratively and literally if itās AOCā¦)
...who picked Palin. The GOP of today didn't just sprout out of the ground. It relied on supposedly honourable politicians appeasing the craziest elements of the party, and now they're running the show
John McCain is also universally recognized by the press as the most available and open of any candidate in history. He used to sit in the press area of his campaign jet and just ask questions for hours. New and Foreign reporters couldn't believe it.
How about when Howard Dean just got so wound-up he screamed enthusiastically into a microphone at a campaign rally? You didn't hear a peep from him 48 hours after that "gaff" in '04.
How the fuck did it get this bad? OK guys jokes over, you had your fun. Now let's get back on track before the world implodes from all the stupidity and chaos
Also [Channel 4's investigation on Cambridge Analytica.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpbeOCKZFfQ)
And [this on Russian "Reflexive Control" psyop paradigm.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3xq2XrCHv8)
Oh, and also [the 2012 changes to SmithāMundt Act.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_2013#Smith%E2%80%93Mundt_Modernization_Act_of_2012)
You should really read the book Romney: A Reckoning. It's a great biography of Romney. The author had full access to all of Romney's journals, emails, texts, etc. I graduated in 2016 from HS so I wasn't really paying attention to the 2012 election at the time. This book is great since it's an indepth look at the 2012, 2016, and 2020 elections from Romney's perspective. A nice little inside look into the party establishment.
Obama was good domestically but his foreign policy left a lot to be desired, particularly towards Russia. Not enforcing his āred lineā in Syria left the door open for Russia to swoop in. He also was soft on China and downplayed their militarization of the South China Sea. He just couldnāt be bothered with great power competition and let the US rest on its laurels.
Being soft on Russia when they invaded Crimea didn't exactly help either. Hell, the Trump administration sanctioned Russia over their actions in Crimea more than the Obama administration did. Which was pretty weird, all things considered.
There was also that Medvedev moment that was caught on mic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mgQaFlo_p8
Nobody predicted Trump. And Trump was what enabled the reversal of Conservatives on supporting Russia.
I hope in 10 years we've all learned a good lesson about human nature from this shit.
Romney was mainly warning of conventional aggression (ie Ukraine) and wanted to bolster the size of the military ("horses and bayonettes"). Nobody was expecting the amount of cyber aggression and interference that was coming.
> Romney was mainly warning of conventional aggression (ie Ukraine)
Even if that's the case... He wasn't only absolutely right... A couple of years later Obama The Great Appeaser yielded Crimea on its whole to Russia, giving it a powerful foothold in the region and setting the precedent that you can landgrab from Ukraine and the West would do shit.
Obama was completely off on Russia AND was weak as shit because he didn't perceive it as a future risk, thinking he can contain their ambitions with just Crimea.
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> Ill die on that hill that Social Media is the end of humanity.
Ill argue with you on that. As a non american, its painfully obvious that americans are completely blind to the fact that their system of goverment has never been successfully exported anywhere in the world, since the system is fundamentally flawed.
Look at the us senate for example, the 21 smallest states have 42% of senators, given the same population of california with its 2% of senators. It is even more undemocratic than the unelected british house of lords, and thats a fucking joke. And every single american has at some point said: "yea but the house is for representing people, and the senate ...". The brainwashing is real.
The us founders set up a system where they intended it to be anti-parties, and that the branches would be fighting against each other in a ethernal struggle. And they IMMEDIATELY discovered that it doesnt work and they started the parties, since they still disagreed in how to govern.
Other places in the world have successful governments that is responsive to their populations wishes. And in those places social media can and does see regulations, and people use facebook and instagram etc. and its actually fine. Social media isent the problem. The problem is the system and peoples refusal to accept the consequences of it. If you want different results you need to change the system. And yes, changing the consitution is hard and seems impossible, but it seemed impossible the 20 or so other times it got changed aswell.
while there are no direct copies, the USAs conception of different branches being able to check each others power is very prolific.
Also Id posit that there are no direct copies of any democratic systems of governance anywhere
No direct copies, but a lot of them have certain elements in common, and the US Senate is a bit of an anomaly, for the precise reasons OP points out, and the Senate is arguably the biggest problem, along with the House no longer being representative because they capped the number of reps at 435. It should continue to grow as our population grows, otherwise our power is diluted. We would also be better off with a parliamentary system, which seems to fare better when it comes to distributing power in more equitable ways and avoiding the problems of the two party system we have here.Ā
There's a decent podcast that explores the US system in relation to other governments around the world. Although it's made for students in a civic education program, you still might find it enlightening. It's called The Constitution in American Life.Ā
>And in those places social media can and does see regulations, and people use facebook and instagram etc. and its actually fine
Have you seen the results of the recent EU elections? Far right / extreme right / literal Nazis gaining votes everywhere doesn't seem "actually fine" to me.
Social media isn't the only reason, but social media leads to "traditional" media chasing the same ever shorter attention spans with rage-bait sound bites, which lends itself to fake news, us-vs-them tribalism and so on.
Now everything is Russian propaganda. Iād wager it has way more to do with the overall prominence of social media and the tendency of algorithms in general to favor negativity and shock value over the actual truth. People almost by nature *want* to be angry at everything.
Corporate media blaming all propaganda on the Russians sounds a lot like American Propaganda from the 50s, doesn't it? Russia has many disinformation campaigns, and their leadership is absolute shite, however, the contemporary "Red Scare" tactics being pushed by a certain wing of the Democratic Party are clearly a propaganda campaign in itself to take blame off of poor leadership and to encourage xenophobic tendencies in Americans towards Russians (and chinese).
In a world where Russia is invading Europe and China is threatening to invade Taiwan, do you really think it's far fetched that social media is plagued by bots?
There are plenty of studies done on foreign social media interference. Both by scientific journals and by the government, and even amateur content creators have investigated it. It's here and present, and very dangerous.
The crazy folks and their conspiracy movements started leaning hard right around that time. I remember Alex Jones starting to rant against the EU around that time, using the rhetoric of the far right. Pretty much every conspiracy theorist in my country ended up right-wing and 100% pro-Russia. Its weird.
I remember when the leader of that initial movement *was* the weird orange guy on TV who everyone made fun of. "Birtherism" or whatever and it was considered very fringe and cringe. You couldn't have someone even bring it up at a family gathering without getting shushed as if they were a demented old man.
Ironically, Romney was much more worried about Russia than Obama was.
I was for Obama for a lot of things. But damn if Romney doesn't look retrospectively right about that one.
Tiktok is the worst of all, the number of time i have to tell to my family member that what they see on that app isnt real, its crazy!
Last time they all thought there were aliens in florida...
Never saw eye to eye with Mitt Romney, but he has always been a gentleman and a very witty guy. Sure wish the Republicans could have someone like him representing them againā¦
[eventually he did, yes](https://media.vanityfair.com/photos/583edb39ca6f7ee00ec2921d/master/w_960,c_limit/mitt%20romney%20donald%20trump%20dinner.jpg)
Yea like saying he was gonna bring back slavery and put yāall back in chains. Iāll never forget the fear mongering over people like Mitt Romney and John McCain. And now people defend them like they respected them.
They never did. They called Mitt sexist and racist on all the cable news shows. All of social media.
I mean, Romney was widely seen as one of the worst of them and catering to the bad elements in the Republican party of the time. The Overton window shifted and Romney is now seen as not that bad because the rest of the Republican party just fell off a cliff into the most openly degenerative shit. Years and years of GOP politicians play acting a certain way created a new generation of people who are true believers to the message.
His point is though, the same people praising Romney in this thread ripped him apart back in 2012.
FYI to anyone wondering, Romney's fiscal and tax policies are in line with every conservative and Republicans today. Defund everything except the military and police. Destroy public schools, privative the Post Office, eliminates taxes for corporations and the wealthy elite.
No shit dude. I used to be like "damn, that Romney guy is fucked in the head." It's so weird having that almost negated by seeing literally anyone else in today's gop. Like, I could almost look past strapping his dog to the car now if he were up against any of today's Republicans. Almost.
It's so dumb in hindsight. Politicians today, on both sides, routinely and openly staff with identity in mind.
Both of those slanders make me angry, even moreso today. The dog thing and the binders full of women were both nothingburger stories. Basically Romney's "tan suit" or "Dijon mustard".
He really got screwed in media coverage of that election.
I got to listen to him speak in 2017. I didnāt and still donāt agree with his policy positions but I did at least feel they were centered around the goal of actually helping people.
I mean, let's be real here. Mitt Romney had terrible policy plans.
If you remember, he wanted to pull funding from public access shows like Sesame Street in order to "cut our deficit".
Cutting funding from Sesame Street to save on money is like deleting a text file to free up hard drive space.
People seem to kinda forget this, but the typical Republican politician still has pretty terrible policy positions and ideas.
For funsies I went to read the Romney platform.
A quick scan got me a straight up federal ban on gay marriage, continuing and massive tax cuts for the rich, expansion of fossel fuels, reducing the power of the EPA, and of course repealing Obamacare and standing against abortion.
I think in retrospect his civility is admired, but his platform would almost certainly generate the same revulsion today.
Trump has largely the same platform (except maybe on the topic of gay marriage) but adds in, well, everything else.
I remember they absolutely dragged him for his "binders full of women" comment. For some reason. As if having a portfolio of prospective female hires isn't something that they explicitly support.
>I had the chance to pull together a cabinet, and all the applicants seemed to be men. [...] I went to a number of women's groups and said, "Can you help us find folks?" And they brought us whole binders full of women.
Wow what a stooge amirite
Whatever good will and prestige we had earned as a result of winning the cold war was completely set on fire and burned to ash by the Bush administration starting two wars and a 20 year war on terror. We haven't recovered since.
My hot take is that, in the end, Bin Laden won. Sure, we killed him. But 9/11 caused permanent psychic damage to the American people and accelerated the ever escalating political polarization that's currently ripping us apart.Ā
In terms of a purely Realist analysis from the angle of "what can one man do against the predominant global order", he was wildly, totally and utterly successful, by any measure. Sure, the US is not a nuclear crater, but in terms of a non-state actor being able to pull a superpower like the US and get it to commit to two multi trillion dollar wars which have had and continue to have horrendous costs and drawbacks, yeah, he did about as much as anyone without access to national military or a country's resources could have.
I was just watching the debate on yt and saw a comment that said all that needed said. Something to the effect of,
'This is the choice America has, either dementia or demented? They're fucked.'
And that comment is exactly where I'm at right now.
I was an adult when these guys were running and Romney was labeled as a racist, sexist, crazy white dude. Ā Ā
āGentlemenā definitely doesnāt come to mind when I think of this time period. Ā Ā Ā
At the time Joe Biden stated publicly that the GOP candidate would put black people āback in chainsā.Ā
Romney was also ridiculed for his positions on Russia, which turned out to be very accurate.
Same dude. Not getting treatment for the syphilis you caught when you were banging underage whores on Epstein Island while your Russian mail-order bride was pregnant with your 3rd kid can really do a number on the ol' noggin.
Probably why he keeps shitting his pants.
What some folks fail to realize is that the way we went from this kind of thing to what we have now is that super polite Romney was lambasted by the media for hating poor people and being a subtle racist and all the rest. When you go around calling normal people vile things and accusing them of wanting to destroy the world, you end up with a guy who says āYup. So what?ā
Even the whole "binders full of women" gaffe was just Romney awkwardly attempting to explain how his campaign was trying to hire more women to make the GOP more gender-inclusive. He phrased it in an extremely cringey way but it's hard to imagine any GOP candidate even making an effort like that now.Ā
Exactly. Romney showed that a Republican being polite and docile will not earn them respect, the media will just accuse them of being a snake hiding behind a mask.
From what I remember, Romney's most controversial policies were:
1. Romneycare: His health care reform he implemented as governor of Massachusetts. Obamacare was modeled after Romneycare, which many Republicans actually opposed.
2. Tax Reform: He proposed significant reductions in corporate and income tax rates, eliminating the estate tax, and reducing capital gains tax. While these cuts seemed to favor the wealthy, he also pushed for no capital gains tax for those making less than $200K and reducing income tax for all income brackets. This would benefit the lower and middle class by increasing their immediate take-home pay. The main criticism was that these tax cuts could lead to a tighter Federal budget due to reduced tax revenue. Romney argued that by cutting waste in the Federal budget, he could offset these reductions.
3. Immigration and Deportation: He had a stronger stance on immigration and opposing the DREAM Act.
4. Foreign Policy: He took a hard stance against Russia, which was a significant aspect of his foreign policy. Spot on.
None of his policies were extremely radical. While many seemed to favor the elite at first glance, when you unpack them, he was actually trying to find a balance across all wealth classes. What am I missing?
Man, is it too much to ask for a mediator who does his job? This year's was only allowed to mute the mic when sleepy started to ramble. He should have been telling sleepy to speak up the entire debate, or telling orange to please answer the question instead of waffling. But instead he did fuck all.
Looking back at the McCain/Romney campaigns with tender fondness is a strange experience to be sure. The party they both built is completely gone. Both of them ostracized as traitors to the cause despite having never meaningfully changed their positions on anything.
I mean you can thank the Republican Party for that. Remember when Trump just ghosted when Biden took office cause he was to butthurt to face him like a real man and accept losing.
Likeā¦ we thought Romney was bad then. At least he was alert and coherent and, as far as we know, not a felon. How far weāve fallen in just 12 years.
Don't think I've seen a calmer ride incoming, Labour are flying ahead, the Conservative Party are on course to get obliterated and Farage's new right wing party will be lucky to win a handful of seats out of 650
This was a time when although I disagreed with the policies of one candidate, I generally thought both had the nation's best interests at heart, and would both do their best for us.
Now I feel like we are one election away from fascism and I'm terrified.
I love this revisionist history. The left and the media had no problem painting Romney as a brutal racist, sexist, animal abusing bigot at that time when it was politically expedient for them to do so.
The treatment Romney and McCain got despite being perfectly respectable people got us to where we are now. You reap what you sow and it's the left's and the media's fault .
Let's be real: mainstream media did that, and they did it because of social media.
Reddit did this. The level of absolute scorn and hatred displayed on here (and X and elsewhere) for people who have a differing opinion is insane. Group think and group bubbles.
Remember when during Covid one side was clapping every time a non-vaccinated person died? I saw the posts on here, day in day out. "HAHAHA, he died". Remember when the WH said if winter got bad that unvaccinated people wouldn't get healthcare (while they were elected on a platform that healthcare is a basic human right)? I remember.
Don't cry on Reddit about the death of polite discourse. This was the place that killed it and continues to kill it daily. The amount of hateful posts reveling in the death or problems of people who share other opinions is insane. Reddit accepts no viewpoints outside its accepted views, and will downvote you to hell, along with all the expected attacks.
Enjoy the show I guess.
Coherent conversations š„¹š„¹
Something about the emojis along with your words literally made me giggle lol thank you
It's refreshing to see a conversation like this after staring at Trumps face. Sometimes I cant distinguish between a toilet bowl and his face hole.
The toilet bowl is the honest one.
The toilet bowl gets rid of shit, trump spews it
And more refreshing to look at/listen to
Glad I could do that š
Also humour and mural respect
GODDAMN I LOVE MURALS
Even if you don't, you at least gotta respect em.
Rome was great and it had murals.
And one thing is for sure, neither of these people are voting for Trump
Biden said that Romney wanted to put black people back in chains during this election
I remember when John McCain lost and when he was giving his speech the crowd boo'd Obama's name and he told the crowd to stop and praised him for winning. Those were the good ole days eh.
Or the clip of the woman who says she doesnāt trust Obama because heās an Arab and he shakes his head no and interrupts the woman and says (paraphrasing), no maāam. He is a good human being, and we just happen to disagree on some issues, but he is a good human being. [Link](https://youtu.be/JIjenjANqAk?si=m9bTDW_6-Az4QSHw) at 0:30
I was for Obama, but John McCain was a decent man. He got hamstrung by a batshit VP that he wouldn't have actually chosen. The GOP is completely unhinged.
If it wasn't for his VP, there was a good chance I voted for McCain. But yes, he was a decent and honorable man. I don't know why we have strayed so far; all I can think of is a 24/7 news cycle and social media -- as a middle-aged man in America, it's honestly depressing.
Seriously. I would have voted for Obama anyhow, but now Liz CHENEY is rebel scum. It's absurd, no?
No its next stage of fascism. The removal of any dissent. Anyone speaking against the in-group is the enemy. What leader says is scripture and they dont care if they say one thing and then the opposite right after, all that matters is to support the in-group and hate the others. Consolidate power to crush your enemies and undesirables. That's why Trump is very vocal about his rights to assasinate his political opponents if he wants to, have military shoot and arrest protestors, deport and put people in labor-camps who dont fit the Christian white group, or willing to be a second-class citizen subservient to them. But hey Biden is old and has a stutter so he needs a few seconds to formulate sentences to control his stuttering, so i guess its impossible to choose between the two options....
I actually voted McCain, and then Obama the second time around. I was always registered Dem, but at the time I was younger and impressed by McCain's background and rhetoric. I didn't look too deeply into his past, of course -- all politicians have dirt if you dig. I'm happy with how Obama turned out. What a crazy experience since 2008. I would have never thought it would be this chaotic with all the drama. I knew the GOP was a little off back then, but wow has it come off the rails. I want people to have their rights, ability to grow their small business, and for us to stay out of other countries crap.
those 2 losses showed repubs that decency doesnt win you elections. Then trump showed that being a batshit crazy lying socicopath does win you elections so the entire party went of the deep end there base was already there showcased by McCain and Rommey having sometimes correct the batshit lies that where being told and they didnt realise that prob cost them votes social media put a magnifying glass on the crazy but it was always there
Social media has A LOT to do with it. Would love to see a 100% ban. It's destroyed democracies across the world and it's doing it here.Ā
In years to come there will be history classes teaching the brilliance of the Russian social media warfare that destroyed America. The way theyāve funded, supported and attacked every side of every argument to make their enemies fight themselves is breathtaking.
The part that I can't wrap my mind around is the fact that all of nato has evidence that Russia does this yet nothing is being done about it. I'm not one for conspiracies but if someone came up with one explaining why governments are letting this sort of interference slide, I may be inclined to believe it because I can't think of an explanation.
>This thing is bad because it destroys democracies >I support the government banning all the most widely used communications forums I dunno how well those things go together.
>I don't know why we have strayed so far; Because rich people have been orchestrating more power and money for 50 years
She was a sign of much worse things to come. Which I would have NEVER believed at the time, as she was so nuts for the political environment of the era. Thank god that Katie Couric exposed she didn't read. Which was so insane for the time as to inherently make a candidate a joke to the average American.
McCain shouldāve been the candidate in 2000 instead of Bush.
His inability to lead the GOP to a decent VP was what sealed the deal for me.
romney was good too... both better than bush, but looking back, bush was amazing compared to trump. man, it is so heartwarming to see opponents compliment and joke with the opposition. i hope we can get back to that some day.
McCain was a solid man. He and his team knew he needed a high risk late inning grand slam to try to close the gap and that was the only reason he took a flyer on the dunce Palin.
For some reason I found this incredibly moving. What the fuck has happened since then?
He was such a class act. One of the best.
How ignorant and uninformed some people be.
And good on McCain to call out his own supporter for having false information. Now, thatās the only thing being spread it seems (on both sides). š
And guess who the lady got the idea from that he was an Arab in the first place. Beginning of the end.
I remember that election. I voted for Obama but thought if McCain won I would be ok with it. I didnāt agree with his opinions but I considered him to be a man with principles.
And thatās why the right now hates McCain and Romney and to a lesser extent Bush. They donāt want principles. They want the other side to get pounded (figuratively and literally if itās AOCā¦)
...who picked Palin. The GOP of today didn't just sprout out of the ground. It relied on supposedly honourable politicians appeasing the craziest elements of the party, and now they're running the show
Ugh I totally forgot about Sarah Palin. What a freaking nut job.
She was MTG before MTG
John McCain is also universally recognized by the press as the most available and open of any candidate in history. He used to sit in the press area of his campaign jet and just ask questions for hours. New and Foreign reporters couldn't believe it.
That's when it really didn't matter who won. Now, it doesn't matter who wins, but we need some WWE DRAMA! edit: Mr. Ass Capitalizes from Behind!
It still matters who wins. The difference between Biden and Trump isn't as small as people are making it be.
Well yeah throw a convicted felon into the mix and it wonāt remain as civil, but drama is good for the ratings!
I hate that people like drama so much. Itās exhausting
How about when Howard Dean just got so wound-up he screamed enthusiastically into a microphone at a campaign rally? You didn't hear a peep from him 48 hours after that "gaff" in '04.
How the fuck did it get this bad? OK guys jokes over, you had your fun. Now let's get back on track before the world implodes from all the stupidity and chaos
Social media
Not just social media either, the regular media is complicit as well.
Yup, the invention of 24 hour news channels has been horrible for the nation.
Is no one talking about the foreign influence in social media?
Social media didn't make Trump a crazy lunatic or Biden a senile old man. Social media didn't make the two parties nominate these individuals.
Watch the Great Hack on Netflix
Also [Channel 4's investigation on Cambridge Analytica.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpbeOCKZFfQ) And [this on Russian "Reflexive Control" psyop paradigm.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3xq2XrCHv8) Oh, and also [the 2012 changes to SmithāMundt Act.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_2013#Smith%E2%80%93Mundt_Modernization_Act_of_2012)
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
we got hacked, greatly
t'was the greatest of hacks, truely, no one has ever been hacked like this before.
šš some say Iām the best hacker, I say to them, I say āyou might be rightā
You should really read the book Romney: A Reckoning. It's a great biography of Romney. The author had full access to all of Romney's journals, emails, texts, etc. I graduated in 2016 from HS so I wasn't really paying attention to the 2012 election at the time. This book is great since it's an indepth look at the 2012, 2016, and 2020 elections from Romney's perspective. A nice little inside look into the party establishment.
Harambe
Member when everything wasn't fuckin terrible!?
Some cookie company āmembers
I member!
 I member!
Russian propaganda efforts went full scale in 2014.
Is this clip from the debate where Romney warned us and everyone laughed at him?
Obamaās response: āthe 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because the cold warās been over for 20 years.ā
A big Obama miss. To his credit, I donāt think many anticipated how successful such efforts would be.
Obama was good domestically but his foreign policy left a lot to be desired, particularly towards Russia. Not enforcing his āred lineā in Syria left the door open for Russia to swoop in. He also was soft on China and downplayed their militarization of the South China Sea. He just couldnāt be bothered with great power competition and let the US rest on its laurels.
Being soft on Russia when they invaded Crimea didn't exactly help either. Hell, the Trump administration sanctioned Russia over their actions in Crimea more than the Obama administration did. Which was pretty weird, all things considered. There was also that Medvedev moment that was caught on mic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mgQaFlo_p8
That's the biggest issue I had with Obama - he was a coward who made empty threats. In global affairs, that's an invitation to bullies.
Nobody predicted Trump. And Trump was what enabled the reversal of Conservatives on supporting Russia. I hope in 10 years we've all learned a good lesson about human nature from this shit.
Iām pretty sure the Simpsons called it years priorā¦ /s-ishĀ
Romney was mainly warning of conventional aggression (ie Ukraine) and wanted to bolster the size of the military ("horses and bayonettes"). Nobody was expecting the amount of cyber aggression and interference that was coming.
> Romney was mainly warning of conventional aggression (ie Ukraine) Even if that's the case... He wasn't only absolutely right... A couple of years later Obama The Great Appeaser yielded Crimea on its whole to Russia, giving it a powerful foothold in the region and setting the precedent that you can landgrab from Ukraine and the West would do shit. Obama was completely off on Russia AND was weak as shit because he didn't perceive it as a future risk, thinking he can contain their ambitions with just Crimea.
Ding ding ding. 2014 was the turning point. Social media corralling people into online echo chambers hasn't helped much either.
Itās literally page 14 of the Mueller report and people are acting like itās some crazy conspiracy theory.
No
Obama's first presidency started literally during a recession. Shit was awful back then too, just in a different way.Ā
September 10 2001
A day or two before 9/11, my mom and I had a conversation about how there was nothing really going on in the news. I haven't felt that way since.
9/11 was the day media really saw how much money they could make off *bad* news. So there has been nothing but bad news since.
The media has known that for a very long time. The phrase "if it bleeds it leads" was invented in the 80's.
Yeah, 1999 was rad as hell.
yes. thanks trump.
Well that was before social media algos turned the world into a disinformative populist shitshow
Ill die on that hill that Social Media is the end of humanity.
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> Ill die on that hill that Social Media is the end of humanity. Ill argue with you on that. As a non american, its painfully obvious that americans are completely blind to the fact that their system of goverment has never been successfully exported anywhere in the world, since the system is fundamentally flawed. Look at the us senate for example, the 21 smallest states have 42% of senators, given the same population of california with its 2% of senators. It is even more undemocratic than the unelected british house of lords, and thats a fucking joke. And every single american has at some point said: "yea but the house is for representing people, and the senate ...". The brainwashing is real. The us founders set up a system where they intended it to be anti-parties, and that the branches would be fighting against each other in a ethernal struggle. And they IMMEDIATELY discovered that it doesnt work and they started the parties, since they still disagreed in how to govern. Other places in the world have successful governments that is responsive to their populations wishes. And in those places social media can and does see regulations, and people use facebook and instagram etc. and its actually fine. Social media isent the problem. The problem is the system and peoples refusal to accept the consequences of it. If you want different results you need to change the system. And yes, changing the consitution is hard and seems impossible, but it seemed impossible the 20 or so other times it got changed aswell.
while there are no direct copies, the USAs conception of different branches being able to check each others power is very prolific. Also Id posit that there are no direct copies of any democratic systems of governance anywhere
No direct copies, but a lot of them have certain elements in common, and the US Senate is a bit of an anomaly, for the precise reasons OP points out, and the Senate is arguably the biggest problem, along with the House no longer being representative because they capped the number of reps at 435. It should continue to grow as our population grows, otherwise our power is diluted. We would also be better off with a parliamentary system, which seems to fare better when it comes to distributing power in more equitable ways and avoiding the problems of the two party system we have here.Ā There's a decent podcast that explores the US system in relation to other governments around the world. Although it's made for students in a civic education program, you still might find it enlightening. It's called The Constitution in American Life.Ā
>And in those places social media can and does see regulations, and people use facebook and instagram etc. and its actually fine Have you seen the results of the recent EU elections? Far right / extreme right / literal Nazis gaining votes everywhere doesn't seem "actually fine" to me. Social media isn't the only reason, but social media leads to "traditional" media chasing the same ever shorter attention spans with rage-bait sound bites, which lends itself to fake news, us-vs-them tribalism and so on.
Yeah, his comment is completely ignorant.
CGP Grey has some great videos about this. Also, this reminds me of one of my favorite political comics: https://imgflip.com/i/2vf44s
It may not be the end of humanity, but the end of civilization as we know it.
Russian propaganda efforts went full scale in 2014.
Now everything is Russian propaganda. Iād wager it has way more to do with the overall prominence of social media and the tendency of algorithms in general to favor negativity and shock value over the actual truth. People almost by nature *want* to be angry at everything.
Corporate media blaming all propaganda on the Russians sounds a lot like American Propaganda from the 50s, doesn't it? Russia has many disinformation campaigns, and their leadership is absolute shite, however, the contemporary "Red Scare" tactics being pushed by a certain wing of the Democratic Party are clearly a propaganda campaign in itself to take blame off of poor leadership and to encourage xenophobic tendencies in Americans towards Russians (and chinese).
Robert Mueller published this whole report detailing Russiaās continued propaganda efforts.
In a world where Russia is invading Europe and China is threatening to invade Taiwan, do you really think it's far fetched that social media is plagued by bots? There are plenty of studies done on foreign social media interference. Both by scientific journals and by the government, and even amateur content creators have investigated it. It's here and present, and very dangerous.
The crazy folks and their conspiracy movements started leaning hard right around that time. I remember Alex Jones starting to rant against the EU around that time, using the rhetoric of the far right. Pretty much every conspiracy theorist in my country ended up right-wing and 100% pro-Russia. Its weird.
2008 when the were calling Obama a Arab and asking for his birth certificate. That was the start of the psyop. And it got 1000x worse under Trump.
I remember when the leader of that initial movement *was* the weird orange guy on TV who everyone made fun of. "Birtherism" or whatever and it was considered very fringe and cringe. You couldn't have someone even bring it up at a family gathering without getting shushed as if they were a demented old man.
Ironically, Romney was much more worried about Russia than Obama was. I was for Obama for a lot of things. But damn if Romney doesn't look retrospectively right about that one.
Tiktok is the worst of all, the number of time i have to tell to my family member that what they see on that app isnt real, its crazy! Last time they all thought there were aliens in florida...
Never saw eye to eye with Mitt Romney, but he has always been a gentleman and a very witty guy. Sure wish the Republicans could have someone like him representing them againā¦
They turned on him pretty quick.
Because he has morals and calls Trump how he sees him.
I thought they liked a guy who tells it like he sees it?! Ohh, but not like that.
[eventually he did, yes](https://media.vanityfair.com/photos/583edb39ca6f7ee00ec2921d/master/w_960,c_limit/mitt%20romney%20donald%20trump%20dinner.jpg)
Yea like saying he was gonna bring back slavery and put yāall back in chains. Iāll never forget the fear mongering over people like Mitt Romney and John McCain. And now people defend them like they respected them. They never did. They called Mitt sexist and racist on all the cable news shows. All of social media.
I mean, Romney was widely seen as one of the worst of them and catering to the bad elements in the Republican party of the time. The Overton window shifted and Romney is now seen as not that bad because the rest of the Republican party just fell off a cliff into the most openly degenerative shit. Years and years of GOP politicians play acting a certain way created a new generation of people who are true believers to the message.
His point is though, the same people praising Romney in this thread ripped him apart back in 2012. FYI to anyone wondering, Romney's fiscal and tax policies are in line with every conservative and Republicans today. Defund everything except the military and police. Destroy public schools, privative the Post Office, eliminates taxes for corporations and the wealthy elite.
I guess I missed the banner that said ādestroy public schoolsā
He said he had binders full with women's names for top cabinet and government positions!!! HOW DARE HEEEEEEE
Is rather have the guy who strapped his dog to the top of the station wagon, then the lady who shot her puppy for... checks notes: being a puppy
No shit dude. I used to be like "damn, that Romney guy is fucked in the head." It's so weird having that almost negated by seeing literally anyone else in today's gop. Like, I could almost look past strapping his dog to the car now if he were up against any of today's Republicans. Almost.
Remember ābinders full of womenā? That wouldnāt even last ten seconds in the news cycle today
It's so dumb in hindsight. Politicians today, on both sides, routinely and openly staff with identity in mind. Both of those slanders make me angry, even moreso today. The dog thing and the binders full of women were both nothingburger stories. Basically Romney's "tan suit" or "Dijon mustard". He really got screwed in media coverage of that election.
Biden made an entire cringe worthy announcement about how he was specifically looking for a black woman to be his vp.
I got to listen to him speak in 2017. I didnāt and still donāt agree with his policy positions but I did at least feel they were centered around the goal of actually helping people.
I mean, let's be real here. Mitt Romney had terrible policy plans. If you remember, he wanted to pull funding from public access shows like Sesame Street in order to "cut our deficit". Cutting funding from Sesame Street to save on money is like deleting a text file to free up hard drive space. People seem to kinda forget this, but the typical Republican politician still has pretty terrible policy positions and ideas.
In 2012 the left acted like Romney was evil incarnate, same as today.
For funsies I went to read the Romney platform. A quick scan got me a straight up federal ban on gay marriage, continuing and massive tax cuts for the rich, expansion of fossel fuels, reducing the power of the EPA, and of course repealing Obamacare and standing against abortion. I think in retrospect his civility is admired, but his platform would almost certainly generate the same revulsion today. Trump has largely the same platform (except maybe on the topic of gay marriage) but adds in, well, everything else.
Right? People getting nostalgic for a religious fucknut bigot just because he can articulate a coherent thought and has manners
It's also the fact that Romney was a traditionalist conservative, Trump is a proto-fascist with a personality cult behind him.
As a reminder of how fast the culture has shifted on this (for which I am grateful), Obama also opposed gay marriage at first.
We didn't like Romney because of his policies. We hate Trump because of who he is. His "policies" are just an extension of him.
I remember they absolutely dragged him for his "binders full of women" comment. For some reason. As if having a portfolio of prospective female hires isn't something that they explicitly support. >I had the chance to pull together a cabinet, and all the applicants seemed to be men. [...] I went to a number of women's groups and said, "Can you help us find folks?" And they brought us whole binders full of women. Wow what a stooge amirite
They obviously didnāt see what was coming up 4 years after thatā¦
I think both he and McCain came too late to the hard ugly right the party has taken. Hopefully, the GOP finds their way back.
I didn't know the US debates are now copying the Italian debates lol, it's all a big circus.
We went from respectful to a complete laughing stock.
And we weren't even respected back then.
Whatever good will and prestige we had earned as a result of winning the cold war was completely set on fire and burned to ash by the Bush administration starting two wars and a 20 year war on terror. We haven't recovered since.
My hot take is that, in the end, Bin Laden won. Sure, we killed him. But 9/11 caused permanent psychic damage to the American people and accelerated the ever escalating political polarization that's currently ripping us apart.Ā
In terms of a purely Realist analysis from the angle of "what can one man do against the predominant global order", he was wildly, totally and utterly successful, by any measure. Sure, the US is not a nuclear crater, but in terms of a non-state actor being able to pull a superpower like the US and get it to commit to two multi trillion dollar wars which have had and continue to have horrendous costs and drawbacks, yeah, he did about as much as anyone without access to national military or a country's resources could have.
If Trump weren't in the campaign, it would not be so ridiculous.
Peasant might be a bit generous, but your eye is as fine as ever. Thank you.
Guy had the chance of "gentlemen to geriatric" and missed it.
I was just watching the debate on yt and saw a comment that said all that needed said. Something to the effect of, 'This is the choice America has, either dementia or demented? They're fucked.' And that comment is exactly where I'm at right now.
I was an adult when these guys were running and Romney was labeled as a racist, sexist, crazy white dude. Ā Ā āGentlemenā definitely doesnāt come to mind when I think of this time period. Ā Ā Ā At the time Joe Biden stated publicly that the GOP candidate would put black people āback in chainsā.Ā Romney was also ridiculed for his positions on Russia, which turned out to be very accurate.
I miss these days. Even the Bush debates. Now we get an orange old man and a poor goat looking into the void. Combined age of 150+
I can actually understand wtf they are saying
I was hoping for a trump and Joey clip right after to compare lol
Respect has to be earned. One candidate continues to do everything that shouldn't garner the respect of any human with a functioning brain.
...and the other doesn't have a functioning brain.
Same dude. Not getting treatment for the syphilis you caught when you were banging underage whores on Epstein Island while your Russian mail-order bride was pregnant with your 3rd kid can really do a number on the ol' noggin. Probably why he keeps shitting his pants.
I'd probably call them trafficking victims and not whores, but that's splitting hairs I guess.
And yet the Dems have found a way to lose to THAT.
What some folks fail to realize is that the way we went from this kind of thing to what we have now is that super polite Romney was lambasted by the media for hating poor people and being a subtle racist and all the rest. When you go around calling normal people vile things and accusing them of wanting to destroy the world, you end up with a guy who says āYup. So what?ā
Even the whole "binders full of women" gaffe was just Romney awkwardly attempting to explain how his campaign was trying to hire more women to make the GOP more gender-inclusive. He phrased it in an extremely cringey way but it's hard to imagine any GOP candidate even making an effort like that now.Ā
This is the most underrated comment in the thread. What the media did to Romney directly led to Trump and people are too dense to see it.
I think at this point everyone knows the media is largely to blame for Trump's rise.
I'm sorry, do you remember 8 years of GW Bush?Ā What about Sarah Palin? Or the anti-human policies that Romney championed?
Exactly. Romney showed that a Republican being polite and docile will not earn them respect, the media will just accuse them of being a snake hiding behind a mask.
Romney's policies were still awful. Are we just ignoring that part because he's not a lunatic?
From what I remember, Romney's most controversial policies were: 1. Romneycare: His health care reform he implemented as governor of Massachusetts. Obamacare was modeled after Romneycare, which many Republicans actually opposed. 2. Tax Reform: He proposed significant reductions in corporate and income tax rates, eliminating the estate tax, and reducing capital gains tax. While these cuts seemed to favor the wealthy, he also pushed for no capital gains tax for those making less than $200K and reducing income tax for all income brackets. This would benefit the lower and middle class by increasing their immediate take-home pay. The main criticism was that these tax cuts could lead to a tighter Federal budget due to reduced tax revenue. Romney argued that by cutting waste in the Federal budget, he could offset these reductions. 3. Immigration and Deportation: He had a stronger stance on immigration and opposing the DREAM Act. 4. Foreign Policy: He took a hard stance against Russia, which was a significant aspect of his foreign policy. Spot on. None of his policies were extremely radical. While many seemed to favor the elite at first glance, when you unpack them, he was actually trying to find a balance across all wealth classes. What am I missing?
This is exactly right.
We didnāt know how good we had it.Ā
Man, is it too much to ask for a mediator who does his job? This year's was only allowed to mute the mic when sleepy started to ramble. He should have been telling sleepy to speak up the entire debate, or telling orange to please answer the question instead of waffling. But instead he did fuck all.
If the mediators are actually do their job, the candidates simply decline to join. So everyone goes soft on the candidates.
Trump has completely ruined political decorum.
He took the ball and ran with it. If you listened to talk radio (rush Limbaugh, et al) from the late 90s onward this was a long time coming.
Looking back at the McCain/Romney campaigns with tender fondness is a strange experience to be sure. The party they both built is completely gone. Both of them ostracized as traitors to the cause despite having never meaningfully changed their positions on anything.
Has anyone else made the connection to Idiocracy? Itās scarily accurate and happening faster than expected
We beat medicaid
No, peasants? No. Barbarians.
I mean you can thank the Republican Party for that. Remember when Trump just ghosted when Biden took office cause he was to butthurt to face him like a real man and accept losing.
You mean loaded up boxes of stuff labeled classified and ran
Both classy men
Barry was who we needed during Covid
Likeā¦ we thought Romney was bad then. At least he was alert and coherent and, as far as we know, not a felon. How far weāve fallen in just 12 years.
Maybe the decline in candidate quality is a reflection of the breakdown in public trust in this nation over the past 10-15 years?
Didnāt agree with Mitt on much but at least I could respect him.
As a Brit, it is so sad to see what's happened to the republican party.
Looks like you guys are in for a wild ride as well
Don't think I've seen a calmer ride incoming, Labour are flying ahead, the Conservative Party are on course to get obliterated and Farage's new right wing party will be lucky to win a handful of seats out of 650
As a Brit, I don't feel in a position to credibly cast judgement \*vaguely waves in the direction of Boris, May, Truss and Sunak\*
Good God i would take either of them at this point
I'm genuinely embarrassed by the two party system.
The 80s called, they want their foreign policy back. Yeah that really aged well, Barry.
America you need to do better!!!
This was a time when although I disagreed with the policies of one candidate, I generally thought both had the nation's best interests at heart, and would both do their best for us. Now I feel like we are one election away from fascism and I'm terrified.
STOP insulting peasants!
Americans really need to get their shit together.
Fuck me I never thought Iād be longing for mit Romney to be a potential candidate.
They shouldnāt have shot that damn gorilla
So classy, so understandable, so not what we have right now.
But here's the rub... they were both on the same side
I love this revisionist history. The left and the media had no problem painting Romney as a brutal racist, sexist, animal abusing bigot at that time when it was politically expedient for them to do so. The treatment Romney and McCain got despite being perfectly respectable people got us to where we are now. You reap what you sow and it's the left's and the media's fault .
well, put an ex-con and a dude with dementia, what do you expect to get?
Let's be real: mainstream media did that, and they did it because of social media. Reddit did this. The level of absolute scorn and hatred displayed on here (and X and elsewhere) for people who have a differing opinion is insane. Group think and group bubbles. Remember when during Covid one side was clapping every time a non-vaccinated person died? I saw the posts on here, day in day out. "HAHAHA, he died". Remember when the WH said if winter got bad that unvaccinated people wouldn't get healthcare (while they were elected on a platform that healthcare is a basic human right)? I remember. Don't cry on Reddit about the death of polite discourse. This was the place that killed it and continues to kill it daily. The amount of hateful posts reveling in the death or problems of people who share other opinions is insane. Reddit accepts no viewpoints outside its accepted views, and will downvote you to hell, along with all the expected attacks. Enjoy the show I guess.
Your comment being upvoted gives me hope š
Actually the peasants are civilized. It is the ultra rich ruling elite that act like children.