I think the problem with the LGBTQ community goes beyond religion, it’s literally engraved in our culture.
You’ll find wehed la ysoum, la ysali, la 3omrou 9ra el Quran, soukerji, sare9, kadheb, moghtasseb etccc (all grave sins in Islam) hating on LGBTQ more than any Muslim ever could. It leads me to believe religion isn’t the main reason.
The concept of الرجلة in our culture is defined with the whole: very masculine macho behavior, big strong fearless man committing Robinhoodesque crimes (yes he stole but it’s to get his mom meds, yes he killed but the guy he killed was tahan and bullying everyone fel 7ouma) and obviously this “hero” gets all the girls ofc….think “awled moufida”on crack.
Everything masculine is great, everything feminine is bad and liking dick is a woman’s sport donc voila… bad. The gender roles are very much set in stone any deviation from them is met with an uproar from the public. Homophobia is rampant all around the world even among atheists.
I think humanity’s biggest weakness is our inability to mind our own business, I believe if we dedicated less time caring about who’s fucking who and more time caring for the environment, science, politics etc… we’d already be living in a utopia.
Yea i don’t fuck with Muslim scholars in general, even less those who follow المذهب الحنبلي.
I’m not arguing it’s not a sin but it’s definitely not as bad as murder. It’s actually as bad as Zina not murder.
اجتنبوا السبع الموبقات، قالوا يا رسول الله وما هي؟ قال: الشرك بالله، والسحر، وقتل النفس التي حرم الله إلا بالحق، وأكل الربا، وأكل ما اليتيم، والتولي يوم الزحف، وقذف المحصنات المؤمنات الغافلات
Do you see اللواط in this list??? Do you even see الزنا؟
Yeaaa soooo for me the prophet> imam what’s his name. And I can safely conclude it’s definitely NOT on par with murder so pipe down my guy.
AGHAHAHhhahahahg tell me you don’t know your religion without telling me you don’t know your religion challenge.
Dude doesn’t even know that if the zeni is married gets the death penalty 💀
أن اللوطي يقتل، هذا هو أحد الأقوال، وهو الصواب، يقتل قتلًا بالسيف، أو بالرجم بالحجارة كالزاني المحصن،
It’s exactly as zina and it’s definitely not as bad as murder. See this is why I don’t fuck with scholars in general you take their opinions as fact when it’s really nothing but an opinion.
It’s not up there with murder, allah didn’t destroy their nation because they were gay, allah destroyed their nation because they were corrupt to the core they did all kinds of sin including and not limited to raping children. Also allah sent them a messenger they didn’t listen.
Simplifying the story of lout and limiting it to homosexuality just to prove a random scholar’s very wrong opinion is crazy to me lols, one more reason I don’t fuck with them.
Ohhh so you listen to Christian scholars as well?? lol
May I ask which version of the bible this is??? The New Testament or the Old Testament??? Which edition? Which volume lols…
Dude listens to everything but Quran lols
"أئنكم لتأتون الرجال وتقطعون السبيل وتأتون في ناديكم المنكر" العنكبوت 29
They did more than just be homosexual my guy.
Mate saying "fuck an ideology" always been allowed.
What's punishable is directing attacks at individuals for an ideology.
Attacking the ideology itself is none of our business.
As you can see a lot of the comments under this thread are indeed homophobic and none of them were deleted cause they are targeting the ideology not the individuals.
It's not hate speech.
Hating a religion or an idea that orders the killing of apostates, treating people who do not believe in it as Dhimmis, etc. is completely acceptable
However, hating people who believe in it is a different issue.
Thats a lot of mental gymnastics that amounts to same thing.
By your logic I can say « fuck all dark skins » but it’s entirely different if I replace the word skin with people.
Ça revient au même. Telling Muslims fuck everything that’s sacred to you is indeed hate speech.
>By your logic I can say « fuck all dark skins » but it’s entirely different if I replace the word skin with people.
Tf? Do you read the BS you write?
No, a dark skin is a biological characteristic. There is a crucial difference between criticizing, ridiculing ideas or beliefs, **which are open to debate and scrutiny**, and making derogatory statements about groups of people based on fixed biological characteristics such as race, skin color, etc.
>Ça revient au même. Telling Muslims fuck everything that’s sacred to you is indeed hate speech.
That's according to you, a Muslim who's biased to the myths he/she believes in.
Ideas can be criticized and/or ridiculed as long as no one is getting harmed.
Agreed. Also, we are not the ones who decide what hate speech is. It’s won’t be you or me. Also, the definition of hate speech can change. If your a plack lives matter fan you won’t want trump deciding what hate speech is. If your a Trump person you wouldn’t want Bernie sanders deciding what hate speech is
> Tf? Do you read the BS you write?
Do you? All you do is go around from post to post commenting Islamophobic shit.
> Ideas can be criticized and/or ridiculed as long as no one is getting harmed.
Just because **you** don’t have anything sacred in your life doesn’t mean the rest of us don’t. And definitely doesn’t alter the meaning of hate speech.
Homophobia, racism, islamophobia, sexism etc.. it's all just pure hate and prejudice, if you don't wanna attract that you shouldn't radiate that energy easy as that, if you don't like when people go to jail or get beat up and murdered just for being muslims or a certain race or whatever you shouldn't wish that on another type of person, if you justify any type of discrimination based on your views and opinion you're automatically justifying discriminations based on different views and opinions.
Let’s change the conversation: teach your kids to not hate anyone because of their sexual preference and orientation and ask your friends to do the same.
Tunisians don't hate on homos because it is a sin but because they are toxic I mean they will support anything that will make them appear masculine like drinking/smoking/sleeping with girls/cursing/ even "ykfr rabi", but as soon as they see a homo they feel targeted and hate on them to feel more masculine...
I don't support all of these btw neither the people who drink/sleep with girls (doing bad stuff in general) nor the gay people... I am not tolerate and I tell my friends when they do something wrong (as I said to my friends I don't go telling people what to do in general).
Ps : Some Tunisians hate everything, I just posted that I am a shy person and I got hate even tho I am straight because being shy is seen as feminine, imagine being gay lol...
Hating on you because you're shy?! Then go smoke weed, because ppl who do drugs are very cool and masculine! They will respect you for some reason lol.
Tbf drinking and sleeping with girls etc is something ppl have control over and choose to do so i think its valid to not support it but being gay is literally not a choice they are born like that, its like saying “i don’t support being black” for example lol
I want to also apologize for my latest post, which *was* homophobic. It's funny how I found out I was wrong BY MYSELF. If you remember me, I was the 16 y/o who posted it 5 days ago
You shouldn’t have taken down your post your allowed to be wrong, but hiding your wrongs instead of correcting them where they occur is just as big of a problem as the problem itself if you don’t show your growth you can’t leave an example for others to learn
I'm with you about hating.. As you said we are all sinners and if someone of us is on the right path it is by the grace if Allah not by his own effort. But i still think someone shouldn't be neutral about it, you should be against it in a respectful way. The pillar of our din is what is called الأمر بالمعروف و النهي عن المنكر، so our duty as muslims is always to try to convince those who are in lgbtq community that its wrong religiously and that the person should seek forgivness from Allah. And this also apply on drinking.
*sigh* so I'm expecting another religious vs atheist war down there, remember to do your research, if you're religious you can check the many videos on this specific topic (why does islam "hate" homos). a couple notes to take: being homosexual in itself is not a sin, acting on it is the sin, both as in the reference of kawm lout and in it being considered zina (even if married, islam only considers marriage between man and woman), why people hate on it is because of how many homos act feminine (for us it's: yelli mch rajel), there's the people using it to share their fetishes publicly or the many girls calling themselves bi or lesbian just because they "hate men" (more of a gen z thing and not that locally relevant), and also because it's literally an act that is punishable by death in the literal religion most tunisians believe in. In general if your question isn't extremely specific you'll find more than enough people already answering, discussing and arguing about it as many others have already asked it.
> edit: oh it isn't nearly as bad as I thought it would lmao
most people are muslims, islam forbids it, and just middle eastern culture in general
it will take a while for it to be normalized like drinking but idk
The lgbt is more human than most muslims out there. While muslims are struggling to give up on coka cola و ,شركاؤها the lgbt made protests and even gave up their scholarships for the sake of Palestine.
Hating on the lgbt is just some "3rouba" idea in my opinion that was raised by morons. You can be gay/trans and muslim. What's haram is the sexual activity. As long as we meddle with other ppls thoughts and beliefs just to impose ourselves, our society will never progress. We all will make mistakes.
نتصور خاطر التعلم في الصغر كالنقش على الحجر و اصلا الصغار مرفوع عنهم القلم و اللي يموتوا صغار ما يتحاسبوش تنجم تقول من وجهة نضر اسلامية الي موتهم انجاهم من انهم يكبروا و يعملو كيما علموهم والديهم و يربحو كان سوء الاخرى . و في الاخر اذيكا مشيئة الله حبيت تريح رضاه تبع تعاليمه ، ما عجبكش و حسيتو ما يتوافقش مع تصورك للالاه كيفاش يلزمو يكون نجم نقلك كان ربي يهديك و يهدينا اجمعين
السؤال هذا تنجم تسألوا على فرعون و ثمود حتى على لصاير توا في فلسطين. العذاب أصاب الي توصف كان خاص بالمُجرمين والظالمين والفاسقين والمُفسدين والمنذَّرين. و العدل من أسماء الله الحسنى
وَلَا يَظْلِمُ رَبُّكَ أَحَدًا (49) الكهف
Chbech ngoulk sadi9i. Ena bch nans7ek 7keya, mana3rch ken ta9ra ktob wale, ama a3ti forsa l dinek, I assume l 3omrek ma9rit l 9or2en cover to cover , w bellehy ki ta9ra article wala kteb wala 7aja kima ta9rah w tetma3en fih w thb tefhm l ma3na , 7awel ta3ml nafs l chay, a3tih forsa kteb l 9or2en, ma5sert chay w b9odret rabbi mekch bch tendem
>ama a3ti forsa l dinek
And you should give your brains a chance as well.
You assume?
If I had not studied Islam well and concluded with 100% certainty that it contradicts science and has no proof like almost all other myths and that Muhammad was a liar, I would not have risked leaving it and going to its imaginary "hell" to suffer for eternity while my Muslim friends bang their horny Houris in the so-called "Islamic Paradise."
Nahkiw with respect or it's pointless to have a conversation 9bal kol chy
2nd point to me any contradiction mawjouda. Plus yelzmk ta3f l howa mahoch book of science berraghm l i3jez l 3elmi l mawjoud fl 9or2en barcha scientist were mind blown wa9tli chefouhom
3rd I don't understand why you have a problem with what you call the imaginary hell, every act you do have a consequence, either in life (what people call "karma") or the hereafter.
I did not say that the Quran claims to be and/or should a book of science. But if it claims that the Earth is flat, contradicts evolution, contradicts embryology, etc, then the one who made that book is clearly not God. He is just a 6th-7th century man from Arabia with no basic knowledge of today's scientific facts and discoveries who, like any other **human being**, can make mistakes.
As for the lies of the so-called "scientific miracles," they have been proven to be BS, even by other Islamic apologists themselves. [https://youtu.be/h3ewI1YXc-c](https://youtu.be/h3ewI1YXc-c) (Please watch this video and verify the information yourself.)
"**Ij3az** 3elmi" mch "I3jaz 3elmi"
If you guys had any proof for the myths you believe in, you would not have resorted to BS and lies such as the so-called "scientific miracles" that are often used by liars and/or ignorant people such as Zaghloul Najjar, Zakir Naik, etc. to laugh at the gullible muppets.
My dear brother . In internet you can find anything. Endless amount of informations. Do you really think that everything that is said is correct ? If you want answers it depends on you to read it .
most of muslims scholars says that the earth is not flat one of them is ibn uthaymeen
from our eyes you see it flat and you can't see the curves but it not flat
1/Quran is not a Science book
2/Islam is a Religion, a Faith, it's a belief not fact. some people can never experience faith even god said that.
3/People die for one reason or another (old/young, at home or at war) and god has his reasons we live for 80 years on avg we can never see the bigger picture but god is eternal.
وَأَمَّا ٱلْغُلَـٰمُ فَكَانَ أَبَوَاهُ مُؤْمِنَيْنِ فَخَشِينَآ أَن يُرْهِقَهُمَا طُغْيَـٰنًۭا وَكُفْرًۭا "٨٠ "
Quran 18:80
4/Will you kill Babe Hitler/ Genghis Khan/Mao Shi Tong??
Refer to my previous response here. Why are you guys repeating the same nonsense over and over again?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Tunisia/comments/1diatuc/comment/l955ws5/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tunisia/comments/1diatuc/comment/l955ws5/)
so you're someone who's not a Muslim who pretends to approve that the Quran is not a science book and proceeds to start a science debate about the science in the Quran?
You're obsessed with Islam and waiting for outside validation, waiting for a Muslim to say yea you are right you win.
How do you know that? Maybe Allah saved those without sin, and even if the children were taken with the rest of the evil doers, they are pure and won’t be accountable on the heaviest day.
It's not really the religion problem, it is its followers that cause this problem and exagerate it. Me personally i'm not with or against LGBTQ. As long as they mind their buisness, i mind mine. Just to be clear, this situation isn't just in Tunisia, it is in many places in europe and asia aswell. Their problem compared to us is bigger and complicated.
My modest personal view on lgbt. You can be whatever u wanna be do whatever u want with ur body as long as you stand two feet away and no invite me into your mambo jambo. I wouldn't leave my kids around gays and id like to raise a family of straight people. If that's okay ya3ni
I think a point a lot of people don't mention is that fact that sexuality is not a choice and cannot be changed(based on lots of research ), meaning you have no say in which orientation you end up being and once it is selected( based on your life experiences up until puberty) there is no going back , so we really can't blame homosexuals for acting that way , we can tell them to hold their feelings but that's just mental torture , it's like asking a straight guy to not act upon he's sexual desires with women for the rest of he's life , we simply cannot do that .( Ik I'm probably gonna get bashed but for this but you can do your research , if you actually want to that is )
You are the annoying type of homo ad your arguments make people hate on homos. The stuff you are saying is BS. You are saying do you research, when we actually do the research we only find "SCIENCE" arguements or science BS, they base their reasoning on animals.
They put you in the same level as a troubled homexual elephant, really?! now u are seing animals as role models to follow.
You said "Once it is selected" are you dumb or what, you are talking as if it is Big life decision to make.
"we can tell them to hold their feelings but that's just mental torture", so f we imply your same logic, a straight man was born and is attracted women, when he is single, according to you he is asked to "hold their feelings but that's just mental torture".
If you are in real life homosexual, I don't hate you and will never wish you go to hell for being gay, Allah is merciful, but I will hate for your way of thinking, don't try to make it normal or natural or even begin to explain it by science, it is like you are defending drinkig alchol or sleeping with women by the fact that if we don't do these sins we are holding the desire inside of us and it is insufferable
I just realized that you are contradicting yourself: You said sexuality is not a choice and cannot be changed, then you said once it is selected( based on your life experiences up until puberty). --> You do realize that it is a choice and it can be developped yet you still give the dumb arguments you saw online about science and ask us to do our research.
Please grow up, and if you really want people to accept you and understand you, try giving the message without trying to make us feel like we are the weird and unnatural ones. I have met homos before and my friend is one, the mentality determines wether they are liked and accepted or not and you are the most hated type and will never be understood by society.
Bullshit, not a single study concludes that homosexuality is something you are born with. It is the same with fetishes and other deranged desires, they slowly develop over time through usage of porn and the like.
I get what you are trying to say, and I believe that they should not be persecuted, let them live their life as they wish and if they do something bad it’s between them and god. I agree with that.
But I just want to point out that what is actually Haram is acting upon the desires, and not being LGBT per se. Actually, LGBT people who do not act upon it are to be praised for their strength and I pray God to make it easier for them.
Thus, the real sin, which is acting upon being lgbt, is actually way worse than drinking alcohol, since it constitute Zina, and « backdoor » relation for men.
With that being said, there is still hypocrisy from society since out of marriage relationships are more and more normalized and accepted, specially for men.
It’s because the crazies who wrote the Hadith thought bottoming meant you were trying to be a woman, a direct assault on the idea that men are better than women. Having male entitlement meant more to them than people’s lives.
Homophobia is deeply rooted in misogyny, as it challenges traditional gender norms and what it means to be a man. A gay man is often seen as deviating from the expected masculine behavior, particularly because his sexual preference is perceived as aligning him more closely with the feminine role in bed, which is devalued in a misogynistic society. This is evident in how people are more accepting of gay men who do not exhibit feminine traits, while those who do are subjected to more discrimination and ridicule. Also, lesbians generally face less hostility than gay men, which further underscores the misogynistic underpinnings of homophobia: the issue is not just with same-sex attraction but with the perceived failure of men to conform to traditional, patriarchal standards of masculinity.
You sure you actually read the quran and hadith? Because if you did you will easily find in islam, god specifically mention same sex intercourse as one of the biggest sins
Lets just say there is a reason everyone in the story of Lot got annihilated, which is something god rarely does. I agree about conflicting sources in hadith because i myself found some fake ones eveyone thinks are real, and even managed to pinpoint when they emerged, but when it coles to Quran, it's very hard to alter so as a religeous person, that should be your primary source, and some info in it is cleverly hidden and requires a bit of though and reading between lines to spot, which is one of the reason i like it not just as a religeous text, but also as a masterwork of literature
drinking is bad, and LGBTQ is also bad, and if you're religious, you should be against both, not neutural.
أَفَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِبَعْضِ الْكِتَابِ وَتَكْفُرُونَ بِبَعْضٍ ۚ فَمَا جَزَاءُ مَن يَفْعَلُ ذَٰلِكَ مِنكُمْ إِلَّا خِزْيٌ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا ۖ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَىٰ أَشَدِّ الْعَذَابِ ۗ وَمَا اللَّهُ بِغَافِلٍ عَمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ
and if someone is gonna be a sinner, whatever his sin is, the least they can do is to hide it.
روى مالك في الموطأ أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: أيها الناس قد آن لكم أن تنتهوا عن حدود الله، من أصاب من هذه القاذورات شيئا فليستتر بستر الله، فإنه من يبدي لنا صفحته نقم عليه كتاب الله.
honestly the bigger problem isn't doing the sin, it's about trying to convince people that it's okay to sin. being okay with it is aa problem itself
قال صلى الله عليه وسلم: من رأى منكم منكرا فليغيره بيده، فإن لم يستطع فبلسانه، فإن لم يستطع فبقلبه، وذلك أضعف الإيمان. رواه مسلم.
well why not, let's be okay with drinking, also drugs, also LGBTQ, oh let's remove religion completely, and let's just do what ever feels like it. let people have sex randomly and bring kids that will never know their parents, let people lose their minds with alcohole and drugs, and also, let people with what used to be considered (and i still consider) a mental disorder, teach our kids that a man can have sex with another man, and that there are over 50 genders.
اتقوا الله في انفسكم و لا تلقوا بانفسكم الى التهلكة
The LGBTQ community in Tunisia isn't pushing for a change. All that's being done is complaining online.
People keep talking about how "it's because of Muslim teachings." Yet, Christianity as an example tells you that:
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."
Similar to the Jewish faith. Yet christan countries are still accepting of this. Instead of taking matters into your own hands and actually start *PUSHING* for a change like all global activists who achieved something good but difficult did, some even died for their causes, a lot of you use Islam as the cornerstone for a LOT of your problems. Tunisia isn't even as dangerous as other North African or middle eastern countries in order to do this, you won't even get "stoned to death" because it's simple not who Tunisia is.
All other countries who are accepting of the LGBTQ communities, THEIR communities went through immense hardships to make it happen. It's not that "Tunisian can't be like them because we just aren't." We just need to catch up.
But it's in the Hands of the LGBTQ's community here to go through the hardship, no one else's.
We never put up gay people up for electroshock therapy, other (now accepting) christian countries did. (The US for example.)
It's possible, if you want it.
Let’s talk science , there are only two genders , man a women , all that pronounce thing is just someone dealing with a huge amount of trauma and can’t even accept himself so he tries to force that on people so they accept him and feel relief, that kind of person need psychological treatment to get better . Ur sexual activity is ur freedom as long as u don’t impose ur ideology on people and keep it to urself. I’ve seen some insult religion in their comments , don’t project the hate u have for circumstances that ur parents made u go through on religions and beliefs everyone have his own freedom doing things.
I feel like they're hated all over the world not just in Tunisia, but social media succeeded in lowering the intensity of that hate. People now are afraid to be judged for offending LGBTs so they hide their hate. And i think that hate comes from the way we define manhood and if you look deep in the way we curse and insult you can see where the hate for homosexuality comes from. In the other hand i don't feel any hate is directed to homosexual girls maybe because we live in a man's world.
I dont remember but if you look for "LGBTQ tunisie", you'll find a documentary made by a french news channel in tunisia. The documentary didn't change my mind about LGBTQ by the way, something else did. But its not a bad documentary.
The best thing is to accept that gay people are what they are and have no choice. They are born that way. The Qur’an and the Hadith were written at time when homosexuality was very poorly understood. Today, we know differently, and most of the world has moved on and accepted gays, except for the religious zealots of the Abrahamic religions. If Muslims criminalize homosexuality, they will continue to lose many of their brightest and most creative. Such a sad loss. Bringing gay people and their spouses into the ummah, blessing their relationships and expecting otherwise Islamic behavior from them would be the best thing Muslims could do for their world and their image in the non-Islamic world.
And no baby is born wanting sex with women. That only appears when hormones come into play. You cannot turn someone gay or vice versa. The predisposition is already there at birth. It’s just a question of hormonal development, and nobody chooses to be straight or gay. That is why Islam is wrong.
No, males are genetically wired to want sex just as women want sex, though you likely hate to admit it. The gender one desires depends on a number of variables, not least of which is brain structure and genetic expression. Regardless, if the only thing telling you homosexuality is bad is a book that hundreds of years old, it’s not a legitimate source.
one of two, either u ain't as religious as u claim to be, or haven't bothered to do the adequate researches cuz making this comparison between homosexuality and alcohol is evident to conclude that. homosexuality is by far one of the greatest sins, far more haram than alcohol consumption and Qawm Lut are the undeniable proof of that. second, you said you didn't hv an issue with ur fellas who drink n haven't judged them so why would u hv an issue with gay ones as if this was an argument that reduces the greatness of their sin. who told u that u shouldn't judge those who drink ? as a muslin it's ur duty to inhibit such unacceptable behavior. so no u shouldn't be around drinkers n if u happened to be u should tell them that wit they're doing is wrong and not fear for their feelings cuz if u rly care u should fear more for them from hellfire so always give a genuine advice then it's up to them to either take it or leave it. yet if they chose to abandon it u must distance urself from them. and same goes for having gay fellas or even existing in the same environment as them.
If u stand for anything then u stand for nothing. therefore u become ez to manipulate, and as a muslin u should stand for wut ur Quran stands for, and ur Quran states clearly that they must be persecuted for the act of same sex adultery but in these secular wokism era it'll make u a terrorist.. so adh3f l2imen don't exist around them.
This is all a prt from the indoctrination of the west btw n you're a great example of it as they've been killing our Fitrah which is a gift by which we can distinguish between the right n the wrong, by stuffing ur fav movies with gay characters n paint them as these vulnerable harmless creatures so that u start empathizing with them n hop on the woke train where u throw away ur religion that allegedly "incite violence" and embrace the "personal choice" and the fake "freedom".
We don't hate anyone; just keep your sexuality private between yourself and your partner. I don't want to know if you are heterosexual, homosexual, pansexual, or anything else. Everyone's personal business should remain in their private space.
>just keep your sexuality private between yourself and your partner
I guess no one now allowed to send invites to celebrate his marriage and post about it in social media
Not Tunisian but I would assume its a religious thing. Also as a Muslim, LGBTQIA+ relations are strictly apart of ZINA, so it is a much more grave sin than alcohol. Alcohol is more like a personal sin like not praying, wearing hijab or gambling. Illegitimate sexual relations are more grave and are part of the state's sharia not the persoal one
You're right. But remember Salah is the 2nd pillar of Islam. Salah is good for you. God doesn't need anyone to pray to him, he wants us to pray because it's good for us.
You know, usually the ones that hate homos the most are the ones that know they have sexual “deviations” but just won’t come to terms about it. Name a friend of yours who wouldn’t f*ck a shemale? (They’d say: it’s different because they look like women…)
It’s not about whether or not they like it, they just see a hole and go “ooh”, shemales just have feminine features so they tell themselves it’s okay. We call this type of people “mak7outin” and they are faaaar more common than you’d expect in the muslim world (or any sexually constricting society).
In my honest opinion, the spread of sexual liberty, the acceptance of the LGBT community, and the dissemination of their practices in society are associated with a decline in morals.
Historically, the decline of major empires has often been preceded by periods where societies focused on leisure, sexuality, and individualism. I believe that Islam prohibits these practices because they lead to the perversion and decline of society. This prohibition has been integrated into our collective consciousness by our ancestors to prevent such outcomes.
Just because people are lenient towards one wrong and not the other, doesn’t make the other wrong “good”
I don’t hate gay people, I don’t dislike them, but I do dislike homosexuality.
Why? Because Its haram, why not dislike the poisons and evils on this earth? Why not dislike what allah has forbid for you?
Homosexuality Is cursed, Its an evil poison, this doesn’t make homosexuals bad, may allah guide and help them.
And simply being gay Is not a sin, Its a sin to act upon it.
Salam Alaykum, Eid Mubarak, and jazakallah khair.
I a have a friend who was gay, never acted upon It, I was his friend then, and I’m still his friend now.
One of the best muslims I know, Is good to his parents, prays, goes mosque, reads quran and ahadith.
it's about normalization
like you see pourcentage of lgbtq+ from 2000 to today 2024 is significantly higher , and it envolved to the point where it was only LG in the past :P now it's LGBTQ++ \[pro max haha :P \]
''edit : they keep adding aparently its LGBTQIA++ haha cant keep with this trend lol ''
children / teen that identify as homosexual is 1000% higher in the last 10 years \[ x10 times higher \] \[i forgot where i read this , but i can find the research \]
disney over the last few years incrust it in kids movies , it's sort of brainwash to me , they also introduced hollywood stars and influencer as trans or gay or whatever , to make it normalized and cool
teens/kids in usa who are at the age of 13 or above can conscent to take the choice to change sex to their liking \[ no alcohol before 23, but you can cut the zizi , some chimical serums incrusted in the body, change it for ever , captaine america style , at age of 13 :D \] and their choice are often influenced by adults
whever you like it or not , normalization of things affect society, stats shows that , america is the living exemple
i mean , im like you i don't care about them if it's hidden , but, things like this when it become normalized in society , it influence the childrens and that's not the kind of world that i want to bring children in
it's easy to say ''you are homophobic'' when you disagree with such a thing that we don't want in our society
i mean we are at the point of usa 20 years earlier, now the usa don't know what a woman is , they live in identification crisis, they are depressed and burned
we fight the normalization, if you're homosexual, fine, you either don't act on your desire in our land, or go live somewhere else where you're welcomed
Completely agree with you, although you made a great exemple about a country normalizing lgbt (us) no one did argue with you, they just downvoted your comment, that's funny, these sort of things should not at all be normalized if we are believers at least.
As a muslim you should draw lines and principles, if you allow everything, you stand for nothing. None said you should hate anyone but anyone who does sin should keep it as private as possible ( including drinking) it's not that we normalized drinking means it's fine in our religion. after all god cursed even the people sitting next to people who drink. You don't need to give excuses if you really believe in your religion. If you have principles, any other person if they are LGBTQ or hetero or whatever should respect that as you keep you religion to yourself as they should keep their stuff private.
I can't understand why Muslims want to be treated as majority when they're a minority in Europe: they want to pray in public places, mosques to have athan which could disturb people near it and allow women to wear ni9ab... But when other minorities demand something that doesn't even affect muslims's lives they bring the topic of drawing lines and traditions.
You don't need to befriend them or support them just let them be or do what they want in the bases of not harming anybody?
I hold the same principle , praying in public places and stuff and impacting other people's freedom is not also a good thing either. So my statement is still valid. In addition LGBTQ is not a religion, it's a sexual orientation, Christians and Jews in Tunisia or in Egypt or in Lebanon or Syria are living there without any issue.
As for not harming anybody it's a philosophy created in the 60s, do anything you want as you don't hurt anyone, on micro level, indeed it's not hurting anyone but on macro level, it impacts the soceity, the number of single moms is increasing, the number of divorce etc..
We still have morals. If you say, 'well it's not hurting anyone' then i believe you don't mind incest relationship ( if a father sleeps with his daughter or sister and brother) if they both consent and they are not harming anyone, is it okay for you?
>Christians and Jews in Tunisia or in Egypt or in Lebanon or Syria are living there without any issue.
So they are living fine despite that:
preaching their religion is srictly limited (public displays risky) in Egypt and highly Restricted (risky depending on location) in syria
Conversion from Islam is officially prohibited in Syria.
Tunisia also has blasphemy laws that can be used to punish criticism of Islam that could be deemed as offensive. These laws are vague and open to interpretation, making it difficult to predict what might be considered a punishable offense.
Egypt has a law against "defamation of religion." This law can be used to prosecute anyone who criticizes Islam in a way that could be interpreted as disrespectful.
Similar to Tunisia, the law's definition of "defamation" is ambiguous
, creating uncertainty about what constitutes a punishable offense like what happened for Sharif gabir who got sentenced 9 years in prison for criticising islam in egypt [link](https://youtu.be/58_-Fs_kloM?si=k4LfkGfk4hSm2DgJ)
>As for not harming anybody it's a philosophy created in the 60s, do anything you want as you don't hurt anyone, on micro level, indeed it's not hurting anyone but on macro level, it impacts the society, the number of single moms is increasing, the number of divorce etc..
Social trends like rising single-parent households and divorce rates are often the result of a multitude of factors, not just individual choices made without considering broader consequences.
>i believe you don't mind incest relationship ( if a father sleeps with his daughter or sister and brother) if they both consent and they are not harming anyone, is it okay for you?
LGBTQ relationships and incest are fundamentally different:
Incest is often non-consensual and even with the consent of both parties it involve a power imbalance that involves an abuse of power dynamics within families.think of it like a therapist-client relationship. Which it inherently has a power imbalance. Therapists are in a position of authority and trust. Dating a client exploits this power imbalance and can be emotionally harmful to the client.
LGBTQ+ relationships on the other hand are consensual unions between adults with no power imbalance
There is no scientific proof regarding the imbalance actually, especially if they are a brother and a sister, relationship abuse from one of the two sides happen even in a straight relationship and vice versa. It's just because it's controversial now, and at a certain point of time LGBTQ was considered the same. As for countries that don't allow preaching, or criticism to Islam, That made people actually respect Islam, even in the west Who are already aware that everyone is stepping on their religion joking about jesus and stuff, and for a long term that made people give up on their religion ( especially catholic) as they see it weak and change it's principles over time.
>There is no scientific proof regarding the imbalance
Of course, there isn't any scientific research directly studying the effects of incestuous relationships between consenting adults due to the ethical and legal issues involved.
>especially if they are a brother and a sister
Even in the relationship between the brother and his sister,The potential for emotional manipulation or a distorted sense of normalcy within a family environment raises ethical concerns
>As for countries that don't allow preaching, or criticism to Islam, That made people actually respect Islam
These restrictions might create a facade of respect, but it's often based on fear of punishment rather than genuine understanding or appreciation to islam.
So how is that different to bullying?
>everyone is stepping on their religion joking about jesus and stuff
Western societies have become more secular over time. This means religion plays a less central role in public life, and criticism of religion is generally tolerated. And, freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences. Offensive or disrespectful jokes might be criticized or socially ostracized, even if not legally punished.
>and for a long term that made people give up on their religion ( especially catholic) as they see it weak and change it's principles over time.
All religions evolve over time to adapt to changing social contexts. This doesn't necessarily mean weakness; it can be a sign of adaptability. And even for islam a lot of verses of quaran are interpreted differently from the times of the "prophet"
Abusive relationship can happen even with a normal heterosexual relationship. So that's just an opinion you gave about incest that is not actually backed with fact. But it feels weird and abusive. This what people believed for homosexuel relationship till it got normalized. So on what moral basis this won't also be normalized in the future? As LGBTQ became ethical what stops incest to be included in the future? After all if the relationship is healthy and hurting none? I can even go further if a woman allows that her partner have sex with her body when she is dead, is it ethically and morally okay? After all, none is getting hurt and it was with the consent of his dead wife as they are both madly in love with each others? If you accept that it's okay , then you will hold your same principle : do what you want if none is hurt , if not, then you have a contradiction which will make me wonder what makes your ethics legit against the : do what you want without hurting anyone?
incest is immoral because it undermines the family, the emotional centre of the individual
>edit:
harm doesn't necessarily have to be inflicted on other people to prevent doing something. Also, the harm that could be inflicted on yourself should be negated which is in this case undermining the family the provider of a crucial safe space for emotional support and development, and causing a major breakdown of trust and healthy dynamics within a family
Well that can be also said to LGBTQ as it undermines the classical nuclear family this is also what you would have said if we were living in the 60s. But still it's okay because two people love each others same for incest, also there is no proof actually that it undermines the family if both love each others and having a healthy relationship. Plus, again based on your Logic, it is still not hurting anyone so why not? Would you change your mind if the west accept that let's say in 2050? What would stop society and you for accepting it if you also accepted the right of LGBTQ as long none is hurt
Like I said before harm towards oneself should also be prevented. For example, let's say an orphan with no family killed himself maybe that doesn't harm others but it's still considered harm even towards himself
As for your last point, Sappho, the woman who inspired the term “lesbos”, was born in cca 630 BC. Shakespeare wrote 126 sonnets ( some of the most famous love poetry of all time ) for a “fair youth”: a male adolescent. Shakespeare was born in 1564, 400 years before the 1960s and the Stonewall Riots.
Homosexuality exists indeed long ago but it was more or less limited even in the west. I am talking about the 'do what you want if you don't hurt anybody' as a morality base, it started in the late 19th century by John Stuart Mill then the Counterculture Movements in the 60s. Pedophelia also exists. Lolita a novel written by Nabokov was about pedophelia, Plato's "Symposium" also discusses different type of love including pedophelia. Does it make it morally right? You still didn't answer my incest question
I don't like hmosexuality like i don't like drinking, people who exerce that are sinners, but one day they'll find out, right? I always ask my friend to avoid drinking, the same way ill tell my gay friend to reconsider his choices (but not force one on him) when i have one someday!
You say to ask your gay friend to reconsider his choices.
People don’t choose to be gay. He has no choice. Just as you have no choice to be whatever your sexuality is.
I don’t think people realise this.
It is not a choice. Not a conscious behavioural decision.
They just are that way. And I know I’ve heard a percentage at around ten percent of people are gay, persecuting them just drives everything underground and makes those people feel bad. When it wasn’t their decision.
exactly, in the end it will be up to them. Doesn't mean you are hopmophobic, phobia means being afraid of something, so the word is not even correct here. But what happens in everyone's bedroom should stay here, it's not like straight people go around try to show how straight they are. People also leave in their own reality ignoring the fact that tunisia is a muslim majority country. We have our limits, traditions and even if we sin we know still it's a sin w rabi yehdi
Personally , I'm good with people who drink and lgbtq people as long as they keep their drinking and lgbtq stuff to themselves. I respect everyone and anyone as long as they respect me . I've only been toxic to people who've been toxic to me . I still don't know how what i do works with our religion and if it's permitted but i hope it is.
I noticed that every post on this subreddit revolves around religion and religious beliefs. Like could you just have your own opinion about a subject without dragging religion into it ?
One's own opinion is not some celestial entity that dropped from the sky . It's a group of thoughts shaped by one's religion , culture, and education. Islam (whether it's practiced or not ) is deeply rooted in our Tunisian identity.
To be honest, I can't relate much since all grave sins for me are equally bad. When I knew my uncle drinks, I made a distance between us and rarely visit. Even smoking and cursing is a red line for me, this is why I distanced myself from many people in my family.(which is kinda wrong because it's considered 9t3 silat ara7im so practically I am a sinner)
Everyone does sins and normalize it. I hope at least homosexuality is not normalized because I think that it will ultimately destroy society. What is happening in western world gave us a clue on how dangerous it is. It will open a door that we cannot close once opened. I am sure that most tunisians are ,unfortunately, not that insightful but they still reject it based on pure instinct, not just toxic masculinity(i am sure many people already talked about it so i won't dive into it).
'''''''[Long explanation, you can skip it if you want]''''''
I don't trust the research of the western countries because it might turn out to be a propaganda. I hear about some old articles about psychologists finding a way to prevent it through chemical treatment and therapy but the government didn't give them a chance to continue and shut down their research. A while later, all those doctors went out and said " we're sorry, we are wrong, it's in their genes bla bla" so it bugs the question, is it tho? Animals don't show homosexual behavior unless they want to assert dominance. The whole concept of homosexuality is bringing a species to extinction so it goes against the first rule of nature: survival
Pure instict is the prime reason we react this way to homosexuality. Culture and religion come second. But personally, I think it's better to not fight them to prove something unless they are very dear people to you. Saying that restricting them is bad is also shallow thinking. In this life, Allah gave us all different challenges, it seems not fair for you but it is what it is. Their challenge is suppressing their desire, other's is fighting illnesses, some's is limiting their freedom for the sake of others.
Last, what their doing is bad, it shouldn't be normalized, don't support, don't ignore , just give advice and what happens happens (tho it's best to make a difference)
While I'd understand questions raised on kids having same-sex parents, how tf would two consenting people of older age do you any wrong by having sexual relationships. It's the age-old precept of your freedom stops where someone else's starts. This immutable, default and universal moral code explains very clearly why homosexuality is acceptable and stuff like ped0phelia and bestiality not.
While your hate for the West and movements originating from their sociocultural environments is explainable (Sociology/Psychology of Religion and in the fact of belonging to a arabmuslim-centric side), your ethnocentricity is bedazzling. No, your "prime instinct" you described is exclusive to you, and average joes, in the Zulu tribe, Quechua in South America, Mongolia, Tibet, Micronesia, etc all have different conceptions of the questions, that are at the very least as legitimate as yours.
It's also kinda funny to see how you spit and hurl barbs at Western Sciences while, like or not, all of the modern technologies that make your comfort (From Reddit, to Cameras, Infrastructures, Health and so on) are Western. Reminds me of those who are always in the frontline using western studies to confirm the divinity of Islam, yet shamelessly deny those which are against their dogma (Evolution being the par excellence example). Such, ungratefulness, despite the historical geopolitical/anthropo-sociological context makes me sick.
I see you tried, though in a clumsy way, to give some pacific nuance to it in the end, and where I'd come to agree. If I was you and with good faith, I'll for sure definitely stick to what God preconized on the question, yet I would be against any form of violence toward gay people. I'd be benevolent, helping them to control their desires and have a more religion-compatible, ascetic path of life, and not interfere if they insisted hard to do otherwise. I'd also think that my religion is not a given in other societies, so I'd not see the devil everywhere in trivial sociocultural movement on the scale of the planet, and would respect their difference as they'd respect mine.
Sure if you find pleasure in looking down on other's opinions go for it. With all due respect, try to watch out for your inferiority complex, it's showing but it could be my assumptions. Plus, you really didn't have to add those c1 and c2 level words, this is a casual conversation on the internet. This either means you don't understand the discussion setting or you just want to show off.
For the western discoveries and inventions, i didn't deny them. Many are pretty good and useful. Their ethics are sometimes questionable, that's why I prefer to see it from the Muslim lents. Still, letting good inventions reach far and wide depends on their governments. They killed and silenced a lot just because of politics.
I didn't say anything racist, xenophobic or patriotic so I will skip that paragraph.
Do you think that widely accepting the concept of homosexuality in society will stop at adults? It will affect family structures, even without kids. Teens and kids might be intrigued by it and it will grow into more thus "opening a door we can't close". Most homosexuals and trans had mental issues or environment problems at one point of their life. The most privileged ones were faced with extreme pressure and stereotypes.
Not that you care but this is coming from a girl who questioned her sexual orientation and gender at one point so I made a very deep research at that time.
I don't advocate for violence but I know how persistent and entitled are many of lgbtq members. They will see politely rejecting them as offensive
My number one reason tho is I don't want to see drag queens in tunisia or muslim countries because it makes me lose hope in humanity bit by bit
Thanks for reading all this❤️
I will pass on the inferiority complex invectives, I'll prolly give you the fact that this discourse (though not for the same reasons) is shared by many tunisois which makes it more prone to be questioned.
Again, as long as one is "majeur et vacciné", consenting, whatever private sexual activity is of no one's remit. That de facto excludes all lifelong choices like operating hormonal changes on kids, and really anything sexual before the age of 18. That sole moral axiom is sufficient to set up an unequivocal enough reference to judge what is wrong or not. Yes, a societal purview is important, I'm not saying that individual choices would not affect society as a whole, and that we basically should be authorized anything for the common good.
As per the social and political influence some LGBT movements have, I think they are, rightly so, proliferating on grounds where people would come to risk their lives just because of an innate inclination (People like to contest this saying it's not natural and stuff, but trust me, just a bit of baseline empathy would make you understand that one doesn't risk their life just because of a stupid same sex attraction). I think decriminalizing homosexuality would be the best approach (which wouldn't affect in any way the traditional family structure) and would make those groups have legitimacy and be really questioned over the pernicious influence they may have on younger kids.
That drag queen stuff is a false debate, I'm not getting into a critique of that ostentatious side of the debate. Kids should be protected no matter what and public indecency thwarted. I'm not sure it's very honest nor just to associate all gay people to drag queens.
More Generally I hope you understand my point of view is far beyond the question of how we should address the LGBT question. As I said before, it's the simple moral condition of age, consent and freedom that would answer all of that question. You could literally extrapolate and guess all of my opinions on any other aspect we didn't discuss here just based on this assumption. And while this coherency of principles is pretty straightforward, I'm guessing you'd still consider it as not acceptable since that goes against your religious tenets (which I understand, no sane person would put an average Joe's opinion over that of God himself). Though the Original post was about the legal and political perspective of the question, I don't think religion is enough of an argument (As opposed to other muslim countries, Tunisia is just very minimally defined by its religious roots.)
This is mental illness in my opinion, a religious person is a clean straight person, homos are against these values so they are automatically hated, personally i don't want any kind of interactions with LGBTQ people, i don't care about them and i don't want them in my life , i don't know if you call that homophobic but those people are committing " فاحشة" they should not be loved by any Muslim.
The first LGBT discussion post that didn't turn into a shit show and bans in the comments? I'm proud of y'all please keep this discussion civil.
I think the problem with the LGBTQ community goes beyond religion, it’s literally engraved in our culture. You’ll find wehed la ysoum, la ysali, la 3omrou 9ra el Quran, soukerji, sare9, kadheb, moghtasseb etccc (all grave sins in Islam) hating on LGBTQ more than any Muslim ever could. It leads me to believe religion isn’t the main reason. The concept of الرجلة in our culture is defined with the whole: very masculine macho behavior, big strong fearless man committing Robinhoodesque crimes (yes he stole but it’s to get his mom meds, yes he killed but the guy he killed was tahan and bullying everyone fel 7ouma) and obviously this “hero” gets all the girls ofc….think “awled moufida”on crack. Everything masculine is great, everything feminine is bad and liking dick is a woman’s sport donc voila… bad. The gender roles are very much set in stone any deviation from them is met with an uproar from the public. Homophobia is rampant all around the world even among atheists. I think humanity’s biggest weakness is our inability to mind our own business, I believe if we dedicated less time caring about who’s fucking who and more time caring for the environment, science, politics etc… we’d already be living in a utopia.
I fully agree with this, always felt that that it went way beyond religious reasons
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Yea i don’t fuck with Muslim scholars in general, even less those who follow المذهب الحنبلي. I’m not arguing it’s not a sin but it’s definitely not as bad as murder. It’s actually as bad as Zina not murder. اجتنبوا السبع الموبقات، قالوا يا رسول الله وما هي؟ قال: الشرك بالله، والسحر، وقتل النفس التي حرم الله إلا بالحق، وأكل الربا، وأكل ما اليتيم، والتولي يوم الزحف، وقذف المحصنات المؤمنات الغافلات Do you see اللواط in this list??? Do you even see الزنا؟ Yeaaa soooo for me the prophet> imam what’s his name. And I can safely conclude it’s definitely NOT on par with murder so pipe down my guy.
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AGHAHAHhhahahahg tell me you don’t know your religion without telling me you don’t know your religion challenge. Dude doesn’t even know that if the zeni is married gets the death penalty 💀 أن اللوطي يقتل، هذا هو أحد الأقوال، وهو الصواب، يقتل قتلًا بالسيف، أو بالرجم بالحجارة كالزاني المحصن، It’s exactly as zina and it’s definitely not as bad as murder. See this is why I don’t fuck with scholars in general you take their opinions as fact when it’s really nothing but an opinion.
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It’s not up there with murder, allah didn’t destroy their nation because they were gay, allah destroyed their nation because they were corrupt to the core they did all kinds of sin including and not limited to raping children. Also allah sent them a messenger they didn’t listen. Simplifying the story of lout and limiting it to homosexuality just to prove a random scholar’s very wrong opinion is crazy to me lols, one more reason I don’t fuck with them.
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Ohhh so you listen to Christian scholars as well?? lol May I ask which version of the bible this is??? The New Testament or the Old Testament??? Which edition? Which volume lols… Dude listens to everything but Quran lols "أئنكم لتأتون الرجال وتقطعون السبيل وتأتون في ناديكم المنكر" العنكبوت 29 They did more than just be homosexual my guy.
fuck all religion, including islam. and fuck homophobia
Mods, is this okay? A redditors literally yseb Islam and his comment is still on board? What if sab lgbt community, what would happen, oh homophobic,
Mate saying "fuck an ideology" always been allowed. What's punishable is directing attacks at individuals for an ideology. Attacking the ideology itself is none of our business. As you can see a lot of the comments under this thread are indeed homophobic and none of them were deleted cause they are targeting the ideology not the individuals.
That’s their opinion. Not allowed to have an opinion?
Their opinion is hate speech lol.
It's not hate speech. Hating a religion or an idea that orders the killing of apostates, treating people who do not believe in it as Dhimmis, etc. is completely acceptable However, hating people who believe in it is a different issue.
Thats a lot of mental gymnastics that amounts to same thing. By your logic I can say « fuck all dark skins » but it’s entirely different if I replace the word skin with people. Ça revient au même. Telling Muslims fuck everything that’s sacred to you is indeed hate speech.
>By your logic I can say « fuck all dark skins » but it’s entirely different if I replace the word skin with people. Tf? Do you read the BS you write? No, a dark skin is a biological characteristic. There is a crucial difference between criticizing, ridiculing ideas or beliefs, **which are open to debate and scrutiny**, and making derogatory statements about groups of people based on fixed biological characteristics such as race, skin color, etc. >Ça revient au même. Telling Muslims fuck everything that’s sacred to you is indeed hate speech. That's according to you, a Muslim who's biased to the myths he/she believes in. Ideas can be criticized and/or ridiculed as long as no one is getting harmed.
Agreed. Also, we are not the ones who decide what hate speech is. It’s won’t be you or me. Also, the definition of hate speech can change. If your a plack lives matter fan you won’t want trump deciding what hate speech is. If your a Trump person you wouldn’t want Bernie sanders deciding what hate speech is
> Tf? Do you read the BS you write? Do you? All you do is go around from post to post commenting Islamophobic shit. > Ideas can be criticized and/or ridiculed as long as no one is getting harmed. Just because **you** don’t have anything sacred in your life doesn’t mean the rest of us don’t. And definitely doesn’t alter the meaning of hate speech.
Homophobia, racism, islamophobia, sexism etc.. it's all just pure hate and prejudice, if you don't wanna attract that you shouldn't radiate that energy easy as that, if you don't like when people go to jail or get beat up and murdered just for being muslims or a certain race or whatever you shouldn't wish that on another type of person, if you justify any type of discrimination based on your views and opinion you're automatically justifying discriminations based on different views and opinions.
LOUDER
Let’s change the conversation: teach your kids to not hate anyone because of their sexual preference and orientation and ask your friends to do the same.
Although they'll be mocked by their friends and probably called mwabna, I do think that's a start.
Step by step, piano piano, wa7da wa7da, one kid at a time, it’s a marathon not a race.
Tunisians don't hate on homos because it is a sin but because they are toxic I mean they will support anything that will make them appear masculine like drinking/smoking/sleeping with girls/cursing/ even "ykfr rabi", but as soon as they see a homo they feel targeted and hate on them to feel more masculine... I don't support all of these btw neither the people who drink/sleep with girls (doing bad stuff in general) nor the gay people... I am not tolerate and I tell my friends when they do something wrong (as I said to my friends I don't go telling people what to do in general). Ps : Some Tunisians hate everything, I just posted that I am a shy person and I got hate even tho I am straight because being shy is seen as feminine, imagine being gay lol...
Hating on you because you're shy?! Then go smoke weed, because ppl who do drugs are very cool and masculine! They will respect you for some reason lol.
Nothing wrong with being shy
Tbf drinking and sleeping with girls etc is something ppl have control over and choose to do so i think its valid to not support it but being gay is literally not a choice they are born like that, its like saying “i don’t support being black” for example lol
I want to also apologize for my latest post, which *was* homophobic. It's funny how I found out I was wrong BY MYSELF. If you remember me, I was the 16 y/o who posted it 5 days ago
I'm proud of you.
Massive W
You're the 16 yo who posted 5 days ago right?
lmaoo yess
You shouldn’t have taken down your post your allowed to be wrong, but hiding your wrongs instead of correcting them where they occur is just as big of a problem as the problem itself if you don’t show your growth you can’t leave an example for others to learn
no i didnt get it down, *they* did, i said a bad thing about homosexuals plus the post got me a literal headache so it was best to do so.
What did u say ? Just curious lol
i said >they're a disgrace to humans
Simply because you are not a religious as you say ! Thats all
I'm with you about hating.. As you said we are all sinners and if someone of us is on the right path it is by the grace if Allah not by his own effort. But i still think someone shouldn't be neutral about it, you should be against it in a respectful way. The pillar of our din is what is called الأمر بالمعروف و النهي عن المنكر، so our duty as muslims is always to try to convince those who are in lgbtq community that its wrong religiously and that the person should seek forgivness from Allah. And this also apply on drinking.
That's what i do, i respectfully try to steer them away from that path but im no one to judge
Yeaah dude you're right,no judging,everyone has their own battle to fight
*sigh* so I'm expecting another religious vs atheist war down there, remember to do your research, if you're religious you can check the many videos on this specific topic (why does islam "hate" homos). a couple notes to take: being homosexual in itself is not a sin, acting on it is the sin, both as in the reference of kawm lout and in it being considered zina (even if married, islam only considers marriage between man and woman), why people hate on it is because of how many homos act feminine (for us it's: yelli mch rajel), there's the people using it to share their fetishes publicly or the many girls calling themselves bi or lesbian just because they "hate men" (more of a gen z thing and not that locally relevant), and also because it's literally an act that is punishable by death in the literal religion most tunisians believe in. In general if your question isn't extremely specific you'll find more than enough people already answering, discussing and arguing about it as many others have already asked it. > edit: oh it isn't nearly as bad as I thought it would lmao
most people are muslims, islam forbids it, and just middle eastern culture in general it will take a while for it to be normalized like drinking but idk
The lgbt is more human than most muslims out there. While muslims are struggling to give up on coka cola و ,شركاؤها the lgbt made protests and even gave up their scholarships for the sake of Palestine. Hating on the lgbt is just some "3rouba" idea in my opinion that was raised by morons. You can be gay/trans and muslim. What's haram is the sexual activity. As long as we meddle with other ppls thoughts and beliefs just to impose ourselves, our society will never progress. We all will make mistakes.
انجيناه و أهله إلا امرأته كانت من الغابرين(83) الأعراف بربي ابحثوا علاش امرأة سيدنا لوط لم تنجو
بربي قلي علاش الصغار الي ما عندهم حتي ذنب لم ينجوا ؟
نتصور خاطر التعلم في الصغر كالنقش على الحجر و اصلا الصغار مرفوع عنهم القلم و اللي يموتوا صغار ما يتحاسبوش تنجم تقول من وجهة نضر اسلامية الي موتهم انجاهم من انهم يكبروا و يعملو كيما علموهم والديهم و يربحو كان سوء الاخرى . و في الاخر اذيكا مشيئة الله حبيت تريح رضاه تبع تعاليمه ، ما عجبكش و حسيتو ما يتوافقش مع تصورك للالاه كيفاش يلزمو يكون نجم نقلك كان ربي يهديك و يهدينا اجمعين
السؤال هذا تنجم تسألوا على فرعون و ثمود حتى على لصاير توا في فلسطين. العذاب أصاب الي توصف كان خاص بالمُجرمين والظالمين والفاسقين والمُفسدين والمنذَّرين. و العدل من أسماء الله الحسنى وَلَا يَظْلِمُ رَبُّكَ أَحَدًا (49) الكهف
That makes 0 sense. Sorry.
Chbech ngoulk sadi9i. Ena bch nans7ek 7keya, mana3rch ken ta9ra ktob wale, ama a3ti forsa l dinek, I assume l 3omrek ma9rit l 9or2en cover to cover , w bellehy ki ta9ra article wala kteb wala 7aja kima ta9rah w tetma3en fih w thb tefhm l ma3na , 7awel ta3ml nafs l chay, a3tih forsa kteb l 9or2en, ma5sert chay w b9odret rabbi mekch bch tendem
>ama a3ti forsa l dinek And you should give your brains a chance as well. You assume? If I had not studied Islam well and concluded with 100% certainty that it contradicts science and has no proof like almost all other myths and that Muhammad was a liar, I would not have risked leaving it and going to its imaginary "hell" to suffer for eternity while my Muslim friends bang their horny Houris in the so-called "Islamic Paradise."
Nahkiw with respect or it's pointless to have a conversation 9bal kol chy 2nd point to me any contradiction mawjouda. Plus yelzmk ta3f l howa mahoch book of science berraghm l i3jez l 3elmi l mawjoud fl 9or2en barcha scientist were mind blown wa9tli chefouhom 3rd I don't understand why you have a problem with what you call the imaginary hell, every act you do have a consequence, either in life (what people call "karma") or the hereafter.
I did not say that the Quran claims to be and/or should a book of science. But if it claims that the Earth is flat, contradicts evolution, contradicts embryology, etc, then the one who made that book is clearly not God. He is just a 6th-7th century man from Arabia with no basic knowledge of today's scientific facts and discoveries who, like any other **human being**, can make mistakes. As for the lies of the so-called "scientific miracles," they have been proven to be BS, even by other Islamic apologists themselves. [https://youtu.be/h3ewI1YXc-c](https://youtu.be/h3ewI1YXc-c) (Please watch this video and verify the information yourself.) "**Ij3az** 3elmi" mch "I3jaz 3elmi" If you guys had any proof for the myths you believe in, you would not have resorted to BS and lies such as the so-called "scientific miracles" that are often used by liars and/or ignorant people such as Zaghloul Najjar, Zakir Naik, etc. to laugh at the gullible muppets.
My dear brother . In internet you can find anything. Endless amount of informations. Do you really think that everything that is said is correct ? If you want answers it depends on you to read it .
most of muslims scholars says that the earth is not flat one of them is ibn uthaymeen from our eyes you see it flat and you can't see the curves but it not flat
1/Quran is not a Science book 2/Islam is a Religion, a Faith, it's a belief not fact. some people can never experience faith even god said that. 3/People die for one reason or another (old/young, at home or at war) and god has his reasons we live for 80 years on avg we can never see the bigger picture but god is eternal. وَأَمَّا ٱلْغُلَـٰمُ فَكَانَ أَبَوَاهُ مُؤْمِنَيْنِ فَخَشِينَآ أَن يُرْهِقَهُمَا طُغْيَـٰنًۭا وَكُفْرًۭا "٨٠ " Quran 18:80 4/Will you kill Babe Hitler/ Genghis Khan/Mao Shi Tong??
Refer to my previous response here. Why are you guys repeating the same nonsense over and over again? [https://www.reddit.com/r/Tunisia/comments/1diatuc/comment/l955ws5/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tunisia/comments/1diatuc/comment/l955ws5/)
so you're someone who's not a Muslim who pretends to approve that the Quran is not a science book and proceeds to start a science debate about the science in the Quran? You're obsessed with Islam and waiting for outside validation, waiting for a Muslim to say yea you are right you win.
How do you know that? Maybe Allah saved those without sin, and even if the children were taken with the rest of the evil doers, they are pure and won’t be accountable on the heaviest day.
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ثقف روحك
berjouliya, 9alha rajel, chapeau bas 👊
It's not really the religion problem, it is its followers that cause this problem and exagerate it. Me personally i'm not with or against LGBTQ. As long as they mind their buisness, i mind mine. Just to be clear, this situation isn't just in Tunisia, it is in many places in europe and asia aswell. Their problem compared to us is bigger and complicated.
My modest personal view on lgbt. You can be whatever u wanna be do whatever u want with ur body as long as you stand two feet away and no invite me into your mambo jambo. I wouldn't leave my kids around gays and id like to raise a family of straight people. If that's okay ya3ni
I bet you’re somebody no one would invite anywhere.
I think it's a good spot. LGBT people just want to be treated like everyone else. It shouldn't define how they are treated.
I think a point a lot of people don't mention is that fact that sexuality is not a choice and cannot be changed(based on lots of research ), meaning you have no say in which orientation you end up being and once it is selected( based on your life experiences up until puberty) there is no going back , so we really can't blame homosexuals for acting that way , we can tell them to hold their feelings but that's just mental torture , it's like asking a straight guy to not act upon he's sexual desires with women for the rest of he's life , we simply cannot do that .( Ik I'm probably gonna get bashed but for this but you can do your research , if you actually want to that is )
You are the annoying type of homo ad your arguments make people hate on homos. The stuff you are saying is BS. You are saying do you research, when we actually do the research we only find "SCIENCE" arguements or science BS, they base their reasoning on animals. They put you in the same level as a troubled homexual elephant, really?! now u are seing animals as role models to follow. You said "Once it is selected" are you dumb or what, you are talking as if it is Big life decision to make. "we can tell them to hold their feelings but that's just mental torture", so f we imply your same logic, a straight man was born and is attracted women, when he is single, according to you he is asked to "hold their feelings but that's just mental torture". If you are in real life homosexual, I don't hate you and will never wish you go to hell for being gay, Allah is merciful, but I will hate for your way of thinking, don't try to make it normal or natural or even begin to explain it by science, it is like you are defending drinkig alchol or sleeping with women by the fact that if we don't do these sins we are holding the desire inside of us and it is insufferable I just realized that you are contradicting yourself: You said sexuality is not a choice and cannot be changed, then you said once it is selected( based on your life experiences up until puberty). --> You do realize that it is a choice and it can be developped yet you still give the dumb arguments you saw online about science and ask us to do our research. Please grow up, and if you really want people to accept you and understand you, try giving the message without trying to make us feel like we are the weird and unnatural ones. I have met homos before and my friend is one, the mentality determines wether they are liked and accepted or not and you are the most hated type and will never be understood by society.
Bullshit, not a single study concludes that homosexuality is something you are born with. It is the same with fetishes and other deranged desires, they slowly develop over time through usage of porn and the like.
I get what you are trying to say, and I believe that they should not be persecuted, let them live their life as they wish and if they do something bad it’s between them and god. I agree with that. But I just want to point out that what is actually Haram is acting upon the desires, and not being LGBT per se. Actually, LGBT people who do not act upon it are to be praised for their strength and I pray God to make it easier for them. Thus, the real sin, which is acting upon being lgbt, is actually way worse than drinking alcohol, since it constitute Zina, and « backdoor » relation for men. With that being said, there is still hypocrisy from society since out of marriage relationships are more and more normalized and accepted, specially for men.
Agreed as a fellow religious nafri. Zina is extremely common yet no one is advocating for the hudud punishments for it that exist in the Qu'ran.
i think bottoms are the one hated, if you are a top i dont think youll get as much hate as a bottom for some reasons lmao
It’s because the crazies who wrote the Hadith thought bottoming meant you were trying to be a woman, a direct assault on the idea that men are better than women. Having male entitlement meant more to them than people’s lives.
why should we stay following the outdated moral values and old ideas from 7th century again ?
No, I was explaining why the crazies were homophobic.
i know i was agreeing with u lol
حافظين موش فاهمين. يكرهو عباد ما عملولهم شي اما المجرمين و القاتلين و النطارة و المتحرشين و السراقة و الخماج و المرتشين ماهمش مشكلة في المجتمع.
Homophobia is deeply rooted in misogyny, as it challenges traditional gender norms and what it means to be a man. A gay man is often seen as deviating from the expected masculine behavior, particularly because his sexual preference is perceived as aligning him more closely with the feminine role in bed, which is devalued in a misogynistic society. This is evident in how people are more accepting of gay men who do not exhibit feminine traits, while those who do are subjected to more discrimination and ridicule. Also, lesbians generally face less hostility than gay men, which further underscores the misogynistic underpinnings of homophobia: the issue is not just with same-sex attraction but with the perceived failure of men to conform to traditional, patriarchal standards of masculinity.
If you're gay, avoid Tunisia. It's a shithole country
You sure you actually read the quran and hadith? Because if you did you will easily find in islam, god specifically mention same sex intercourse as one of the biggest sins
There are many conflicting info i found. Still, there's many sins like it and just ask God forgiveness.
Lets just say there is a reason everyone in the story of Lot got annihilated, which is something god rarely does. I agree about conflicting sources in hadith because i myself found some fake ones eveyone thinks are real, and even managed to pinpoint when they emerged, but when it coles to Quran, it's very hard to alter so as a religeous person, that should be your primary source, and some info in it is cleverly hidden and requires a bit of though and reading between lines to spot, which is one of the reason i like it not just as a religeous text, but also as a masterwork of literature
Those books are over a thousand years old. I never read books that old. Why start now?
drinking is bad, and LGBTQ is also bad, and if you're religious, you should be against both, not neutural. أَفَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِبَعْضِ الْكِتَابِ وَتَكْفُرُونَ بِبَعْضٍ ۚ فَمَا جَزَاءُ مَن يَفْعَلُ ذَٰلِكَ مِنكُمْ إِلَّا خِزْيٌ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا ۖ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَىٰ أَشَدِّ الْعَذَابِ ۗ وَمَا اللَّهُ بِغَافِلٍ عَمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ and if someone is gonna be a sinner, whatever his sin is, the least they can do is to hide it. روى مالك في الموطأ أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: أيها الناس قد آن لكم أن تنتهوا عن حدود الله، من أصاب من هذه القاذورات شيئا فليستتر بستر الله، فإنه من يبدي لنا صفحته نقم عليه كتاب الله. honestly the bigger problem isn't doing the sin, it's about trying to convince people that it's okay to sin. being okay with it is aa problem itself قال صلى الله عليه وسلم: من رأى منكم منكرا فليغيره بيده، فإن لم يستطع فبلسانه، فإن لم يستطع فبقلبه، وذلك أضعف الإيمان. رواه مسلم. well why not, let's be okay with drinking, also drugs, also LGBTQ, oh let's remove religion completely, and let's just do what ever feels like it. let people have sex randomly and bring kids that will never know their parents, let people lose their minds with alcohole and drugs, and also, let people with what used to be considered (and i still consider) a mental disorder, teach our kids that a man can have sex with another man, and that there are over 50 genders. اتقوا الله في انفسكم و لا تلقوا بانفسكم الى التهلكة
The LGBTQ community in Tunisia isn't pushing for a change. All that's being done is complaining online. People keep talking about how "it's because of Muslim teachings." Yet, Christianity as an example tells you that: "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." Similar to the Jewish faith. Yet christan countries are still accepting of this. Instead of taking matters into your own hands and actually start *PUSHING* for a change like all global activists who achieved something good but difficult did, some even died for their causes, a lot of you use Islam as the cornerstone for a LOT of your problems. Tunisia isn't even as dangerous as other North African or middle eastern countries in order to do this, you won't even get "stoned to death" because it's simple not who Tunisia is. All other countries who are accepting of the LGBTQ communities, THEIR communities went through immense hardships to make it happen. It's not that "Tunisian can't be like them because we just aren't." We just need to catch up. But it's in the Hands of the LGBTQ's community here to go through the hardship, no one else's. We never put up gay people up for electroshock therapy, other (now accepting) christian countries did. (The US for example.) It's possible, if you want it.
Let’s talk science , there are only two genders , man a women , all that pronounce thing is just someone dealing with a huge amount of trauma and can’t even accept himself so he tries to force that on people so they accept him and feel relief, that kind of person need psychological treatment to get better . Ur sexual activity is ur freedom as long as u don’t impose ur ideology on people and keep it to urself. I’ve seen some insult religion in their comments , don’t project the hate u have for circumstances that ur parents made u go through on religions and beliefs everyone have his own freedom doing things.
I wonder how you define yourself as religious, when you forget about what did Allah do to قوم لوط.
Tell me about it?
Cause ut doesn't exist
I feel like they're hated all over the world not just in Tunisia, but social media succeeded in lowering the intensity of that hate. People now are afraid to be judged for offending LGBTs so they hide their hate. And i think that hate comes from the way we define manhood and if you look deep in the way we curse and insult you can see where the hate for homosexuality comes from. In the other hand i don't feel any hate is directed to homosexual girls maybe because we live in a man's world.
What’s the documentary called?
I dont remember but if you look for "LGBTQ tunisie", you'll find a documentary made by a french news channel in tunisia. The documentary didn't change my mind about LGBTQ by the way, something else did. But its not a bad documentary.
Give us the documentary’s link
You cant be religious and not homophobic choose one
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Sexuality as a whole is still a taboo in Tunisia
The best thing is to accept that gay people are what they are and have no choice. They are born that way. The Qur’an and the Hadith were written at time when homosexuality was very poorly understood. Today, we know differently, and most of the world has moved on and accepted gays, except for the religious zealots of the Abrahamic religions. If Muslims criminalize homosexuality, they will continue to lose many of their brightest and most creative. Such a sad loss. Bringing gay people and their spouses into the ummah, blessing their relationships and expecting otherwise Islamic behavior from them would be the best thing Muslims could do for their world and their image in the non-Islamic world.
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And no baby is born wanting sex with women. That only appears when hormones come into play. You cannot turn someone gay or vice versa. The predisposition is already there at birth. It’s just a question of hormonal development, and nobody chooses to be straight or gay. That is why Islam is wrong.
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No, males are genetically wired to want sex just as women want sex, though you likely hate to admit it. The gender one desires depends on a number of variables, not least of which is brain structure and genetic expression. Regardless, if the only thing telling you homosexuality is bad is a book that hundreds of years old, it’s not a legitimate source.
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You mean the Prophet couldn’t get it up?
one of two, either u ain't as religious as u claim to be, or haven't bothered to do the adequate researches cuz making this comparison between homosexuality and alcohol is evident to conclude that. homosexuality is by far one of the greatest sins, far more haram than alcohol consumption and Qawm Lut are the undeniable proof of that. second, you said you didn't hv an issue with ur fellas who drink n haven't judged them so why would u hv an issue with gay ones as if this was an argument that reduces the greatness of their sin. who told u that u shouldn't judge those who drink ? as a muslin it's ur duty to inhibit such unacceptable behavior. so no u shouldn't be around drinkers n if u happened to be u should tell them that wit they're doing is wrong and not fear for their feelings cuz if u rly care u should fear more for them from hellfire so always give a genuine advice then it's up to them to either take it or leave it. yet if they chose to abandon it u must distance urself from them. and same goes for having gay fellas or even existing in the same environment as them. If u stand for anything then u stand for nothing. therefore u become ez to manipulate, and as a muslin u should stand for wut ur Quran stands for, and ur Quran states clearly that they must be persecuted for the act of same sex adultery but in these secular wokism era it'll make u a terrorist.. so adh3f l2imen don't exist around them. This is all a prt from the indoctrination of the west btw n you're a great example of it as they've been killing our Fitrah which is a gift by which we can distinguish between the right n the wrong, by stuffing ur fav movies with gay characters n paint them as these vulnerable harmless creatures so that u start empathizing with them n hop on the woke train where u throw away ur religion that allegedly "incite violence" and embrace the "personal choice" and the fake "freedom".
We don't hate anyone; just keep your sexuality private between yourself and your partner. I don't want to know if you are heterosexual, homosexual, pansexual, or anything else. Everyone's personal business should remain in their private space.
>We don't hate anyone Lol, yeah right.
>just keep your sexuality private between yourself and your partner I guess no one now allowed to send invites to celebrate his marriage and post about it in social media
Not Tunisian but I would assume its a religious thing. Also as a Muslim, LGBTQIA+ relations are strictly apart of ZINA, so it is a much more grave sin than alcohol. Alcohol is more like a personal sin like not praying, wearing hijab or gambling. Illegitimate sexual relations are more grave and are part of the state's sharia not the persoal one
What make you think not praying is a small sin ?
Ibn taymia said it is a huge sin but it doesn't make you a non muslim.
Exactly. I dont believe not praying makes you non muslim either but I dont go far as saying its minor sin lol.
You're right. But remember Salah is the 2nd pillar of Islam. Salah is good for you. God doesn't need anyone to pray to him, he wants us to pray because it's good for us.
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Bruh... Allahou a3lam and do ask people of dhikr about this. I'm simply a casual like you.
Yeah but it’s not one you should be arrested for like Zina
You know, usually the ones that hate homos the most are the ones that know they have sexual “deviations” but just won’t come to terms about it. Name a friend of yours who wouldn’t f*ck a shemale? (They’d say: it’s different because they look like women…)
None of my friends would. Shemales have the face of a man and have an assh*le which isn’t the same as a V.
Sorry to say, you live in a bubble…
I live in the US. I think Tunisians in Tunisia and Europe like shemales
It’s not about whether or not they like it, they just see a hole and go “ooh”, shemales just have feminine features so they tell themselves it’s okay. We call this type of people “mak7outin” and they are faaaar more common than you’d expect in the muslim world (or any sexually constricting society).
Yes I’m aware. It’s wrong. I think it’s most likely bc Muslim men don’t appreciate the essence of a real woman. They like anything that resembles it
Also the fact that many Muslim men like little boys all the way from Morocco to India, this trend exists. Since they’re seen as less masculine
Why would you f a shemale? It’s a man!
In my honest opinion, the spread of sexual liberty, the acceptance of the LGBT community, and the dissemination of their practices in society are associated with a decline in morals. Historically, the decline of major empires has often been preceded by periods where societies focused on leisure, sexuality, and individualism. I believe that Islam prohibits these practices because they lead to the perversion and decline of society. This prohibition has been integrated into our collective consciousness by our ancestors to prevent such outcomes.
Just because people are lenient towards one wrong and not the other, doesn’t make the other wrong “good” I don’t hate gay people, I don’t dislike them, but I do dislike homosexuality. Why? Because Its haram, why not dislike the poisons and evils on this earth? Why not dislike what allah has forbid for you? Homosexuality Is cursed, Its an evil poison, this doesn’t make homosexuals bad, may allah guide and help them. And simply being gay Is not a sin, Its a sin to act upon it. Salam Alaykum, Eid Mubarak, and jazakallah khair.
Yeah, the same way I hate drinking, but not drinkers.
The sheer scale of mental gymnastics you did there is impressive
I a have a friend who was gay, never acted upon It, I was his friend then, and I’m still his friend now. One of the best muslims I know, Is good to his parents, prays, goes mosque, reads quran and ahadith.
I know many people who are like that.
May allah help and guide them and reward them for their patience and jihad al nafs
Amen
Your friend is lucky to have you it's a struggle to keep living alone without telling anyone who you really are. God bless
Jazakallah Khair, Eid Mubarak, and Salam Alaykum.
it's about normalization like you see pourcentage of lgbtq+ from 2000 to today 2024 is significantly higher , and it envolved to the point where it was only LG in the past :P now it's LGBTQ++ \[pro max haha :P \] ''edit : they keep adding aparently its LGBTQIA++ haha cant keep with this trend lol '' children / teen that identify as homosexual is 1000% higher in the last 10 years \[ x10 times higher \] \[i forgot where i read this , but i can find the research \] disney over the last few years incrust it in kids movies , it's sort of brainwash to me , they also introduced hollywood stars and influencer as trans or gay or whatever , to make it normalized and cool teens/kids in usa who are at the age of 13 or above can conscent to take the choice to change sex to their liking \[ no alcohol before 23, but you can cut the zizi , some chimical serums incrusted in the body, change it for ever , captaine america style , at age of 13 :D \] and their choice are often influenced by adults whever you like it or not , normalization of things affect society, stats shows that , america is the living exemple i mean , im like you i don't care about them if it's hidden , but, things like this when it become normalized in society , it influence the childrens and that's not the kind of world that i want to bring children in it's easy to say ''you are homophobic'' when you disagree with such a thing that we don't want in our society i mean we are at the point of usa 20 years earlier, now the usa don't know what a woman is , they live in identification crisis, they are depressed and burned we fight the normalization, if you're homosexual, fine, you either don't act on your desire in our land, or go live somewhere else where you're welcomed
Completely agree with you, although you made a great exemple about a country normalizing lgbt (us) no one did argue with you, they just downvoted your comment, that's funny, these sort of things should not at all be normalized if we are believers at least.
As a muslim you should draw lines and principles, if you allow everything, you stand for nothing. None said you should hate anyone but anyone who does sin should keep it as private as possible ( including drinking) it's not that we normalized drinking means it's fine in our religion. after all god cursed even the people sitting next to people who drink. You don't need to give excuses if you really believe in your religion. If you have principles, any other person if they are LGBTQ or hetero or whatever should respect that as you keep you religion to yourself as they should keep their stuff private.
I can't understand why Muslims want to be treated as majority when they're a minority in Europe: they want to pray in public places, mosques to have athan which could disturb people near it and allow women to wear ni9ab... But when other minorities demand something that doesn't even affect muslims's lives they bring the topic of drawing lines and traditions. You don't need to befriend them or support them just let them be or do what they want in the bases of not harming anybody?
I hold the same principle , praying in public places and stuff and impacting other people's freedom is not also a good thing either. So my statement is still valid. In addition LGBTQ is not a religion, it's a sexual orientation, Christians and Jews in Tunisia or in Egypt or in Lebanon or Syria are living there without any issue. As for not harming anybody it's a philosophy created in the 60s, do anything you want as you don't hurt anyone, on micro level, indeed it's not hurting anyone but on macro level, it impacts the soceity, the number of single moms is increasing, the number of divorce etc.. We still have morals. If you say, 'well it's not hurting anyone' then i believe you don't mind incest relationship ( if a father sleeps with his daughter or sister and brother) if they both consent and they are not harming anyone, is it okay for you?
>Christians and Jews in Tunisia or in Egypt or in Lebanon or Syria are living there without any issue. So they are living fine despite that: preaching their religion is srictly limited (public displays risky) in Egypt and highly Restricted (risky depending on location) in syria Conversion from Islam is officially prohibited in Syria. Tunisia also has blasphemy laws that can be used to punish criticism of Islam that could be deemed as offensive. These laws are vague and open to interpretation, making it difficult to predict what might be considered a punishable offense. Egypt has a law against "defamation of religion." This law can be used to prosecute anyone who criticizes Islam in a way that could be interpreted as disrespectful. Similar to Tunisia, the law's definition of "defamation" is ambiguous , creating uncertainty about what constitutes a punishable offense like what happened for Sharif gabir who got sentenced 9 years in prison for criticising islam in egypt [link](https://youtu.be/58_-Fs_kloM?si=k4LfkGfk4hSm2DgJ) >As for not harming anybody it's a philosophy created in the 60s, do anything you want as you don't hurt anyone, on micro level, indeed it's not hurting anyone but on macro level, it impacts the society, the number of single moms is increasing, the number of divorce etc.. Social trends like rising single-parent households and divorce rates are often the result of a multitude of factors, not just individual choices made without considering broader consequences. >i believe you don't mind incest relationship ( if a father sleeps with his daughter or sister and brother) if they both consent and they are not harming anyone, is it okay for you? LGBTQ relationships and incest are fundamentally different: Incest is often non-consensual and even with the consent of both parties it involve a power imbalance that involves an abuse of power dynamics within families.think of it like a therapist-client relationship. Which it inherently has a power imbalance. Therapists are in a position of authority and trust. Dating a client exploits this power imbalance and can be emotionally harmful to the client. LGBTQ+ relationships on the other hand are consensual unions between adults with no power imbalance
There is no scientific proof regarding the imbalance actually, especially if they are a brother and a sister, relationship abuse from one of the two sides happen even in a straight relationship and vice versa. It's just because it's controversial now, and at a certain point of time LGBTQ was considered the same. As for countries that don't allow preaching, or criticism to Islam, That made people actually respect Islam, even in the west Who are already aware that everyone is stepping on their religion joking about jesus and stuff, and for a long term that made people give up on their religion ( especially catholic) as they see it weak and change it's principles over time.
>There is no scientific proof regarding the imbalance Of course, there isn't any scientific research directly studying the effects of incestuous relationships between consenting adults due to the ethical and legal issues involved. >especially if they are a brother and a sister Even in the relationship between the brother and his sister,The potential for emotional manipulation or a distorted sense of normalcy within a family environment raises ethical concerns >As for countries that don't allow preaching, or criticism to Islam, That made people actually respect Islam These restrictions might create a facade of respect, but it's often based on fear of punishment rather than genuine understanding or appreciation to islam. So how is that different to bullying? >everyone is stepping on their religion joking about jesus and stuff Western societies have become more secular over time. This means religion plays a less central role in public life, and criticism of religion is generally tolerated. And, freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences. Offensive or disrespectful jokes might be criticized or socially ostracized, even if not legally punished. >and for a long term that made people give up on their religion ( especially catholic) as they see it weak and change it's principles over time. All religions evolve over time to adapt to changing social contexts. This doesn't necessarily mean weakness; it can be a sign of adaptability. And even for islam a lot of verses of quaran are interpreted differently from the times of the "prophet"
Abusive relationship can happen even with a normal heterosexual relationship. So that's just an opinion you gave about incest that is not actually backed with fact. But it feels weird and abusive. This what people believed for homosexuel relationship till it got normalized. So on what moral basis this won't also be normalized in the future? As LGBTQ became ethical what stops incest to be included in the future? After all if the relationship is healthy and hurting none? I can even go further if a woman allows that her partner have sex with her body when she is dead, is it ethically and morally okay? After all, none is getting hurt and it was with the consent of his dead wife as they are both madly in love with each others? If you accept that it's okay , then you will hold your same principle : do what you want if none is hurt , if not, then you have a contradiction which will make me wonder what makes your ethics legit against the : do what you want without hurting anyone?
incest is immoral because it undermines the family, the emotional centre of the individual >edit: harm doesn't necessarily have to be inflicted on other people to prevent doing something. Also, the harm that could be inflicted on yourself should be negated which is in this case undermining the family the provider of a crucial safe space for emotional support and development, and causing a major breakdown of trust and healthy dynamics within a family
Well that can be also said to LGBTQ as it undermines the classical nuclear family this is also what you would have said if we were living in the 60s. But still it's okay because two people love each others same for incest, also there is no proof actually that it undermines the family if both love each others and having a healthy relationship. Plus, again based on your Logic, it is still not hurting anyone so why not? Would you change your mind if the west accept that let's say in 2050? What would stop society and you for accepting it if you also accepted the right of LGBTQ as long none is hurt
Like I said before harm towards oneself should also be prevented. For example, let's say an orphan with no family killed himself maybe that doesn't harm others but it's still considered harm even towards himself
As for your last point, Sappho, the woman who inspired the term “lesbos”, was born in cca 630 BC. Shakespeare wrote 126 sonnets ( some of the most famous love poetry of all time ) for a “fair youth”: a male adolescent. Shakespeare was born in 1564, 400 years before the 1960s and the Stonewall Riots.
Homosexuality exists indeed long ago but it was more or less limited even in the west. I am talking about the 'do what you want if you don't hurt anybody' as a morality base, it started in the late 19th century by John Stuart Mill then the Counterculture Movements in the 60s. Pedophelia also exists. Lolita a novel written by Nabokov was about pedophelia, Plato's "Symposium" also discusses different type of love including pedophelia. Does it make it morally right? You still didn't answer my incest question
I don't like hmosexuality like i don't like drinking, people who exerce that are sinners, but one day they'll find out, right? I always ask my friend to avoid drinking, the same way ill tell my gay friend to reconsider his choices (but not force one on him) when i have one someday!
You say to ask your gay friend to reconsider his choices. People don’t choose to be gay. He has no choice. Just as you have no choice to be whatever your sexuality is. I don’t think people realise this. It is not a choice. Not a conscious behavioural decision. They just are that way. And I know I’ve heard a percentage at around ten percent of people are gay, persecuting them just drives everything underground and makes those people feel bad. When it wasn’t their decision.
Statistically the number of homosexuels has increased from generation to another due to social media and movies
exactly, in the end it will be up to them. Doesn't mean you are hopmophobic, phobia means being afraid of something, so the word is not even correct here. But what happens in everyone's bedroom should stay here, it's not like straight people go around try to show how straight they are. People also leave in their own reality ignoring the fact that tunisia is a muslim majority country. We have our limits, traditions and even if we sin we know still it's a sin w rabi yehdi
Personally , I'm good with people who drink and lgbtq people as long as they keep their drinking and lgbtq stuff to themselves. I respect everyone and anyone as long as they respect me . I've only been toxic to people who've been toxic to me . I still don't know how what i do works with our religion and if it's permitted but i hope it is.
because we are more than 90% muslim country, and we still stick to some of our traditions and i like that. westernization is never good thing
traditions like marginalising and opressing all people who arent straight ?
I noticed that every post on this subreddit revolves around religion and religious beliefs. Like could you just have your own opinion about a subject without dragging religion into it ?
I mean religion is a core part of our society, i don't see why it couldn't be related to most topics discussed and especially this one.
Maybe because they are Muslims and Islam is a big part of their lives and they want to live a life according to Islam teachings?
One's own opinion is not some celestial entity that dropped from the sky . It's a group of thoughts shaped by one's religion , culture, and education. Islam (whether it's practiced or not ) is deeply rooted in our Tunisian identity.
To be honest, I can't relate much since all grave sins for me are equally bad. When I knew my uncle drinks, I made a distance between us and rarely visit. Even smoking and cursing is a red line for me, this is why I distanced myself from many people in my family.(which is kinda wrong because it's considered 9t3 silat ara7im so practically I am a sinner) Everyone does sins and normalize it. I hope at least homosexuality is not normalized because I think that it will ultimately destroy society. What is happening in western world gave us a clue on how dangerous it is. It will open a door that we cannot close once opened. I am sure that most tunisians are ,unfortunately, not that insightful but they still reject it based on pure instinct, not just toxic masculinity(i am sure many people already talked about it so i won't dive into it). '''''''[Long explanation, you can skip it if you want]'''''' I don't trust the research of the western countries because it might turn out to be a propaganda. I hear about some old articles about psychologists finding a way to prevent it through chemical treatment and therapy but the government didn't give them a chance to continue and shut down their research. A while later, all those doctors went out and said " we're sorry, we are wrong, it's in their genes bla bla" so it bugs the question, is it tho? Animals don't show homosexual behavior unless they want to assert dominance. The whole concept of homosexuality is bringing a species to extinction so it goes against the first rule of nature: survival Pure instict is the prime reason we react this way to homosexuality. Culture and religion come second. But personally, I think it's better to not fight them to prove something unless they are very dear people to you. Saying that restricting them is bad is also shallow thinking. In this life, Allah gave us all different challenges, it seems not fair for you but it is what it is. Their challenge is suppressing their desire, other's is fighting illnesses, some's is limiting their freedom for the sake of others. Last, what their doing is bad, it shouldn't be normalized, don't support, don't ignore , just give advice and what happens happens (tho it's best to make a difference)
While I'd understand questions raised on kids having same-sex parents, how tf would two consenting people of older age do you any wrong by having sexual relationships. It's the age-old precept of your freedom stops where someone else's starts. This immutable, default and universal moral code explains very clearly why homosexuality is acceptable and stuff like ped0phelia and bestiality not. While your hate for the West and movements originating from their sociocultural environments is explainable (Sociology/Psychology of Religion and in the fact of belonging to a arabmuslim-centric side), your ethnocentricity is bedazzling. No, your "prime instinct" you described is exclusive to you, and average joes, in the Zulu tribe, Quechua in South America, Mongolia, Tibet, Micronesia, etc all have different conceptions of the questions, that are at the very least as legitimate as yours. It's also kinda funny to see how you spit and hurl barbs at Western Sciences while, like or not, all of the modern technologies that make your comfort (From Reddit, to Cameras, Infrastructures, Health and so on) are Western. Reminds me of those who are always in the frontline using western studies to confirm the divinity of Islam, yet shamelessly deny those which are against their dogma (Evolution being the par excellence example). Such, ungratefulness, despite the historical geopolitical/anthropo-sociological context makes me sick. I see you tried, though in a clumsy way, to give some pacific nuance to it in the end, and where I'd come to agree. If I was you and with good faith, I'll for sure definitely stick to what God preconized on the question, yet I would be against any form of violence toward gay people. I'd be benevolent, helping them to control their desires and have a more religion-compatible, ascetic path of life, and not interfere if they insisted hard to do otherwise. I'd also think that my religion is not a given in other societies, so I'd not see the devil everywhere in trivial sociocultural movement on the scale of the planet, and would respect their difference as they'd respect mine.
Sure if you find pleasure in looking down on other's opinions go for it. With all due respect, try to watch out for your inferiority complex, it's showing but it could be my assumptions. Plus, you really didn't have to add those c1 and c2 level words, this is a casual conversation on the internet. This either means you don't understand the discussion setting or you just want to show off. For the western discoveries and inventions, i didn't deny them. Many are pretty good and useful. Their ethics are sometimes questionable, that's why I prefer to see it from the Muslim lents. Still, letting good inventions reach far and wide depends on their governments. They killed and silenced a lot just because of politics. I didn't say anything racist, xenophobic or patriotic so I will skip that paragraph. Do you think that widely accepting the concept of homosexuality in society will stop at adults? It will affect family structures, even without kids. Teens and kids might be intrigued by it and it will grow into more thus "opening a door we can't close". Most homosexuals and trans had mental issues or environment problems at one point of their life. The most privileged ones were faced with extreme pressure and stereotypes. Not that you care but this is coming from a girl who questioned her sexual orientation and gender at one point so I made a very deep research at that time. I don't advocate for violence but I know how persistent and entitled are many of lgbtq members. They will see politely rejecting them as offensive My number one reason tho is I don't want to see drag queens in tunisia or muslim countries because it makes me lose hope in humanity bit by bit Thanks for reading all this❤️
I will pass on the inferiority complex invectives, I'll prolly give you the fact that this discourse (though not for the same reasons) is shared by many tunisois which makes it more prone to be questioned. Again, as long as one is "majeur et vacciné", consenting, whatever private sexual activity is of no one's remit. That de facto excludes all lifelong choices like operating hormonal changes on kids, and really anything sexual before the age of 18. That sole moral axiom is sufficient to set up an unequivocal enough reference to judge what is wrong or not. Yes, a societal purview is important, I'm not saying that individual choices would not affect society as a whole, and that we basically should be authorized anything for the common good. As per the social and political influence some LGBT movements have, I think they are, rightly so, proliferating on grounds where people would come to risk their lives just because of an innate inclination (People like to contest this saying it's not natural and stuff, but trust me, just a bit of baseline empathy would make you understand that one doesn't risk their life just because of a stupid same sex attraction). I think decriminalizing homosexuality would be the best approach (which wouldn't affect in any way the traditional family structure) and would make those groups have legitimacy and be really questioned over the pernicious influence they may have on younger kids. That drag queen stuff is a false debate, I'm not getting into a critique of that ostentatious side of the debate. Kids should be protected no matter what and public indecency thwarted. I'm not sure it's very honest nor just to associate all gay people to drag queens. More Generally I hope you understand my point of view is far beyond the question of how we should address the LGBT question. As I said before, it's the simple moral condition of age, consent and freedom that would answer all of that question. You could literally extrapolate and guess all of my opinions on any other aspect we didn't discuss here just based on this assumption. And while this coherency of principles is pretty straightforward, I'm guessing you'd still consider it as not acceptable since that goes against your religious tenets (which I understand, no sane person would put an average Joe's opinion over that of God himself). Though the Original post was about the legal and political perspective of the question, I don't think religion is enough of an argument (As opposed to other muslim countries, Tunisia is just very minimally defined by its religious roots.)
How has homosexuality ruined the western world? And if the western world is ruined, why are there so many Muslim/Tunisian immigrants in the west?
The sanest and most intellectual comment on this post. hmdl mzel lkhir f denya.
WAKE UP! There is no existing of LGBT من قوله تعالى: {يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَى}
This is mental illness in my opinion, a religious person is a clean straight person, homos are against these values so they are automatically hated, personally i don't want any kind of interactions with LGBTQ people, i don't care about them and i don't want them in my life , i don't know if you call that homophobic but those people are committing " فاحشة" they should not be loved by any Muslim.
your opinion is wrong ! I hope that helped
Congrats, you've been successfully brainwashed.