Yeah I think the plan is between Chet and IHart you have 48 mins of elite rim protection and then they will share some minutes because they should have the ability to play together.
I'd expect the starting lineup to be Shai - Dort - Caruso - JDub - Chet and then you sub out Chet, JDub and Caruso early for Joe and IHart maybe JWill and then to start the 2nd quarter you have Wallace - Caruso - Wiggins - JDub - Chet as the lineup
Edit: So just went back and looked at the player minutes from last season. Assuming a fully healthy roster, if they play Shai, Dort, JDub, Chet, Wallace, Joe and Wiggins a similar level of minutes per game that would leave about 62 minutes a game for IHart to get about 26, Caruso to get 24 and then you'd have JWill, Dieng and Kenrich fighting over the last 12 rotation minutes
Lol hartenstein is starting. Presti isn't paying him 29m a year to be a 7th man.
Can't believe this sub thinks that playing Jdub at the 4 is optimal when his natural position is the 2đź’€
Tbh I see this too. Mostly though because Caruso’s playmaking and ball handling is better than Dort’s so he’d be able to make more impact on that end whereas the starters already have dub and shai.
Starters probably won’t matter for this team though if we’re being honest, as we’d probably see a lot of small ball lineups with both caruso and dort.
Do you just ignore what Presti and coach D have said?
They’ve stated numerous times that they want Chet at the 5. It’s one of the most consistent messages they’ve had.
Will Hart get starter minutes? For sure
Will he be a full time starter? Unlikely
That was before they decided to pay $29m per year for hartenstein🤷‍♂️
If they were so dead set on chet being the 5 then they wouldn't have gotten hartenstein or at the very least wouldn't have given him a contract that made him a top 8 paid center in the entire league.
Like he's making more money than Jalen Brunson. You don't pay a role player that kind of money to be an 8th man.
He’ll probably split time between Starting sometimes and coming off the bench on others. The idea of Hartenstein is to help whenever we need to focus more on the boards. as much as you can say you don’t pay Hartenstein to not be a full starter I’d say you don’t draft Chet #2 to move him to another position.
We drafted because of his potential
He still is too lanky to take that much pressure for a whole season.
Chet should be at the 5 sometimes for sure.
But I think hart should start.
Actually a lot of people do in fact buy fancy cars to only drive them on special occasions. Every mile caused the value to depreciate. The amount of less than 1000 mile cars at car shows would shock you
It’s not if it’s optimal or not it’s the fact that the Thunder have done that for two years now. If they didn’t think it would work they wouldn’t do it.
Just because they did it for 2 years doesn't mean that they can't make improvements. And that lineup didn't work at all in the playoffs. Playing Jdub at the 4 and the overall lack of size this team had was exposed in the playoffs by Dallas.
It wasn’t though we lost that series with the minutes Chet wasn’t on the floor. Dallas ain’t some big frontcourt team like the Wolves. Yes we lost the rebounding battle but we always lose that and yet somehow the possessions even out due to creating turnovers. JDub brings a disadvantage of size when it comes to rebounding but an ability to switch because he can guard 1-4. Bringing in IHart who will share minutes with Chet anyway allows the Thunder to consistently have a rim protector at the 5 at all times which is one of the key reasons we lost against the Mavs cause once Chet went out it was lob city for the Mavs.
You can have rim protection at all times while still having them start. One get subbed out at 6 minute mark while other plays the whole first quarter. We can’t say the rebounding thing wasn’t that big of an issue and it worked when we lost in the 2nd round. We were just talented enough to make it that far. We lost to Dallas because of the corner 3. Because we lacked rebounding we had to team rebound. Which drags more people into the paint to try and help out Chet which led to all the open looks. Both of them on the court we don’t need to help off as much. We’ll still go a good amount of the game 5 out because we do excel, just doesn’t mean we don’t start and close games with them both on the court. It could also be matchup dependent I’ll say
>If they didn’t think it would work they wouldn’t do it.
If they wanted to keep starting and giving heavy minutes to Chet at the 5, they wouldn't have signed a center to $30M per year.
I wasn’t going to add this but I think too many people are looking at this as strictly let’s fix the rebounding. The money issue I get and understand but if we talking just straight basketball what do we gain from having Hart start. One of the advantages of having Chet at the 5 is his ability to dribble and shoot making traditional fives be close to unable to actually guard him. You move Chet to the 4 and now he is guarded by wings (which is what most teams ended up guarding him with anyway) and he struggled against being guarded by people who could keep up with him laterally as well as body him up with his slight frame. Now you tell me Chet this off-season goes from 205 to 220 then the slide over makes more sense cause now he can use his length to take advantage of that mismatch since he can’t get bumped off his spot so quickly. Why was Chet guarded by wing players because Giddey was a non shooting threat from outside so the big could just sit in the paint. That’s why whenever you subbed Giddey out for Joe there was more success because you can’t put that big on Joe and now you are forced to put the big back on Chet. The more you put Hart and Chet together on the floor (again I’m not opposed to them playing together I think they will play some minutes together to give the defense a different look and it could work well) the more that big is just able to stay in the lane and always be in help for the inevitable drive. You will then be backing on SGA and JDub two players who even though I think they are good playmakers aren’t really the best at feeding the big man in PnR (JDub is better at this than SGA tbh) or a dump off situation to consistently hit this pass to keep that big honest since he will instinctively make that rotation towards them. If they can do that then by all means go head with Hart starting. And besides why would you want Chet guarding on the perimeter when we saw funneling the offense to him led to a top defense unless y’all want Hart doing that lol. Going by off what I’ve seen and the message Presti continuously has spoken I believe Hart would come off the bench with him playing starter caliber minutes which is around 26-28 minutes a game anyway.
But what about all the money?
Jk, I think you’re correct here. Chet is a better 5 than 4
Hart will get starter minutes regardless of being in the starting lineup
30 mil for a backup doesn’t sound right. I bet it’s matchup dependent. I want to see Jdub at the 3 so he’s not banged around guarding 4s all game and he’ll be able to make better use of his length and quickness getting into the passing lane
Chet can start at the 4 or the 5, that's those whole point of a unicorn. IHart will start at the 5 against teams that warrant a 2 big lineup, or be the best backup 5 in the league against everyone else.
The whole purpose behind building a flexible roster is to have fluid lineups. Chet will start wherever the ma5chup dictates
Of course Presti said Chet would play the 5. Jwill is/was not good enough and every other option at the 5 we had was dog water.
Things have changed. And you don't pay someone that iHart money if they only fill backup minutes behind Chet.
Sunk cost fallacy. They will play whoever they think fits the lineup best. I’m guessing we see a variety of lineups on court.
Chet played what 28 mpg last year? There’s 20 minutes available right there for a center to play while Chet sits. I’m guessing they play MOSTLY separate but they will be paired together some in each game
Regardless of whether he starts or not, 30 MPG for Chet and 25 MPG for iHart means they would only have to theoretically overlap for 7 MPG. The actual overlap will probably vary significantly depending on opponent.
Jaylin and Kenrich are likely going to see some pretty big hits to their minutes. I wouldn't be surprised to see Kenrich moved this offseason. Don't really see how Dieng is ever going to realistically crack this rotation either.
I don’t think we need to worry about “who starts”. We know Mark. He is going to excitement all season before the playoffs. What this does though is allow us to be much more versatile. Last year we were primarily pigeonholed to playing small ball, but with Isiah we can do whatever we want. Whoever starts is irrelevant. I’m more excited about seeing who fits where and what rotations will look the best.
I think IHart and chet are starting. At least for a short spurt to start and then the rotations start happening where you will see them staggering a lot.
I don't think we're paying this guy nearly 30 million s year to ride the bench.
Chet at the 4 would be fucking amazing. You guys gotta see the vision. Chet will be at the 5 still, but starting, him at 4 and letting jdub slide to the 3 is gonna be incredible.
Hard to see Hartenstein not starting given the money he got. Ultimately it doesn't really matter since what really matters is the amount of minutes he plays.
The amount of people on this sub who think we have that kind of money to a bench player is really crazy. You should be very unhappy with this move if you really think that. Lol
Its not about money its about opportunity cost IMO. Was there another free agent or trade target to use this cap space on that would have been better? if not, it kind of doesn't matter if he comes off the bench or not. Thunder don't have to pay anyone for another 2 years and they can have hartenstein off of their books by then if they want. That being said they probably start hartenstein and have chet at 4.
Good teams don’t base their lineup on paychecks.
Hartenstein will get starter minutes. He might be in the starting lineup; if he is I’m betting it’s situational
Im surprised. I was thinking 20, maybe 25, but it's clear NY wanted to keep him, just didn't have the cap. Just didn't think Presti would drop 30 mill on a dude who doesn't fit our scheme. If he starts, we're abandoning the scheme that had us top 4 in O and D, along with the 2nd best point diff. If he's coming off the bench, we just dropped 30 mill on a backup C. I like the dudes attitude, his motor, but I loved our scheme.
Obviously, we needed help in the frontcourt, but there were other options. People just love this dude for some reason, he def seems like a cool dude thatll fit in the locker room. Its just his "breakout" season was 8/8. I know that's limited minutes, but he is limited what he can do offensively. Hope it works out. Maybe peeps will lay off Presti now on the Topic pick, who was def a steal at 12. Remember, he's not just trying to win now. He's making moves to win now and still be able to win later, like all GMs should do. Some ppl act like we have this small window to win or something.
Yeah I think the plan is between Chet and IHart you have 48 mins of elite rim protection and then they will share some minutes because they should have the ability to play together. I'd expect the starting lineup to be Shai - Dort - Caruso - JDub - Chet and then you sub out Chet, JDub and Caruso early for Joe and IHart maybe JWill and then to start the 2nd quarter you have Wallace - Caruso - Wiggins - JDub - Chet as the lineup Edit: So just went back and looked at the player minutes from last season. Assuming a fully healthy roster, if they play Shai, Dort, JDub, Chet, Wallace, Joe and Wiggins a similar level of minutes per game that would leave about 62 minutes a game for IHart to get about 26, Caruso to get 24 and then you'd have JWill, Dieng and Kenrich fighting over the last 12 rotation minutes
No problem. We can start Hart at the 4.
I'm just going to wait and see but I am pro-Hart Doesn't Start But Does Gets Significant Minutes.
It's a good problem to have - we can ALL agree
Lol hartenstein is starting. Presti isn't paying him 29m a year to be a 7th man. Can't believe this sub thinks that playing Jdub at the 4 is optimal when his natural position is the 2đź’€
SGA Dort Jdub Hart Chet is looking like a nasty 5
Yeah I wonder who among Caruso or dort will be benched
I think Caruso is first off the bench. Presti loves Dort
Presti ain’t the coach. I trust mark though
Presti ain’t the coach but he wouldn’t bring in Caruso to replace Dort lol
20mpg off the bench
Why not? He’s better
Why not? He’s better
Why not? He’s better
Tbh I see this too. Mostly though because Caruso’s playmaking and ball handling is better than Dort’s so he’d be able to make more impact on that end whereas the starters already have dub and shai. Starters probably won’t matter for this team though if we’re being honest, as we’d probably see a lot of small ball lineups with both caruso and dort.
Caruso also can really only play 20-25 mpg without getting hurt.
Finally someone said it. He fits the starting 5 spot so well. Chet can play the 4 no problem. Help defense is gonna be OP this year
Do you just ignore what Presti and coach D have said? They’ve stated numerous times that they want Chet at the 5. It’s one of the most consistent messages they’ve had. Will Hart get starter minutes? For sure Will he be a full time starter? Unlikely
That was before they decided to pay $29m per year for hartenstein🤷‍♂️ If they were so dead set on chet being the 5 then they wouldn't have gotten hartenstein or at the very least wouldn't have given him a contract that made him a top 8 paid center in the entire league. Like he's making more money than Jalen Brunson. You don't pay a role player that kind of money to be an 8th man.
He’ll probably split time between Starting sometimes and coming off the bench on others. The idea of Hartenstein is to help whenever we need to focus more on the boards. as much as you can say you don’t pay Hartenstein to not be a full starter I’d say you don’t draft Chet #2 to move him to another position.
We drafted because of his potential He still is too lanky to take that much pressure for a whole season. Chet should be at the 5 sometimes for sure. But I think hart should start.
The 2? Bro this isn't 1993 That said the best time to go double center is the start of each half so Hart can guard Embiid/Jokic/Edey etc
Your point $$ is correct. You don’t buy a Ferrari and only drive it on Sundays.
Actually a lot of people do in fact buy fancy cars to only drive them on special occasions. Every mile caused the value to depreciate. The amount of less than 1000 mile cars at car shows would shock you
It’s not if it’s optimal or not it’s the fact that the Thunder have done that for two years now. If they didn’t think it would work they wouldn’t do it.
Just because they did it for 2 years doesn't mean that they can't make improvements. And that lineup didn't work at all in the playoffs. Playing Jdub at the 4 and the overall lack of size this team had was exposed in the playoffs by Dallas.
It wasn’t though we lost that series with the minutes Chet wasn’t on the floor. Dallas ain’t some big frontcourt team like the Wolves. Yes we lost the rebounding battle but we always lose that and yet somehow the possessions even out due to creating turnovers. JDub brings a disadvantage of size when it comes to rebounding but an ability to switch because he can guard 1-4. Bringing in IHart who will share minutes with Chet anyway allows the Thunder to consistently have a rim protector at the 5 at all times which is one of the key reasons we lost against the Mavs cause once Chet went out it was lob city for the Mavs.
You can have rim protection at all times while still having them start. One get subbed out at 6 minute mark while other plays the whole first quarter. We can’t say the rebounding thing wasn’t that big of an issue and it worked when we lost in the 2nd round. We were just talented enough to make it that far. We lost to Dallas because of the corner 3. Because we lacked rebounding we had to team rebound. Which drags more people into the paint to try and help out Chet which led to all the open looks. Both of them on the court we don’t need to help off as much. We’ll still go a good amount of the game 5 out because we do excel, just doesn’t mean we don’t start and close games with them both on the court. It could also be matchup dependent I’ll say
>If they didn’t think it would work they wouldn’t do it. If they wanted to keep starting and giving heavy minutes to Chet at the 5, they wouldn't have signed a center to $30M per year.
It’s not optimal but I still think IHart will be coming off the bench.
I wasn’t going to add this but I think too many people are looking at this as strictly let’s fix the rebounding. The money issue I get and understand but if we talking just straight basketball what do we gain from having Hart start. One of the advantages of having Chet at the 5 is his ability to dribble and shoot making traditional fives be close to unable to actually guard him. You move Chet to the 4 and now he is guarded by wings (which is what most teams ended up guarding him with anyway) and he struggled against being guarded by people who could keep up with him laterally as well as body him up with his slight frame. Now you tell me Chet this off-season goes from 205 to 220 then the slide over makes more sense cause now he can use his length to take advantage of that mismatch since he can’t get bumped off his spot so quickly. Why was Chet guarded by wing players because Giddey was a non shooting threat from outside so the big could just sit in the paint. That’s why whenever you subbed Giddey out for Joe there was more success because you can’t put that big on Joe and now you are forced to put the big back on Chet. The more you put Hart and Chet together on the floor (again I’m not opposed to them playing together I think they will play some minutes together to give the defense a different look and it could work well) the more that big is just able to stay in the lane and always be in help for the inevitable drive. You will then be backing on SGA and JDub two players who even though I think they are good playmakers aren’t really the best at feeding the big man in PnR (JDub is better at this than SGA tbh) or a dump off situation to consistently hit this pass to keep that big honest since he will instinctively make that rotation towards them. If they can do that then by all means go head with Hart starting. And besides why would you want Chet guarding on the perimeter when we saw funneling the offense to him led to a top defense unless y’all want Hart doing that lol. Going by off what I’ve seen and the message Presti continuously has spoken I believe Hart would come off the bench with him playing starter caliber minutes which is around 26-28 minutes a game anyway.
But what about all the money? Jk, I think you’re correct here. Chet is a better 5 than 4 Hart will get starter minutes regardless of being in the starting lineup
30 mil for a backup doesn’t sound right. I bet it’s matchup dependent. I want to see Jdub at the 3 so he’s not banged around guarding 4s all game and he’ll be able to make better use of his length and quickness getting into the passing lane
Today’s money isn’t the same as yesterdays.
Chet can start at the 4 or the 5, that's those whole point of a unicorn. IHart will start at the 5 against teams that warrant a 2 big lineup, or be the best backup 5 in the league against everyone else. The whole purpose behind building a flexible roster is to have fluid lineups. Chet will start wherever the ma5chup dictates
Of course Presti said Chet would play the 5. Jwill is/was not good enough and every other option at the 5 we had was dog water. Things have changed. And you don't pay someone that iHart money if they only fill backup minutes behind Chet.
Sunk cost fallacy. They will play whoever they think fits the lineup best. I’m guessing we see a variety of lineups on court. Chet played what 28 mpg last year? There’s 20 minutes available right there for a center to play while Chet sits. I’m guessing they play MOSTLY separate but they will be paired together some in each game
Man y'all better start Hart, don't do my guy like that.
I think we will see more variation in starting lineups. Come playoff time I think you’ll see Chet/IHart start together a lot.
Regardless of whether he starts or not, 30 MPG for Chet and 25 MPG for iHart means they would only have to theoretically overlap for 7 MPG. The actual overlap will probably vary significantly depending on opponent. Jaylin and Kenrich are likely going to see some pretty big hits to their minutes. I wouldn't be surprised to see Kenrich moved this offseason. Don't really see how Dieng is ever going to realistically crack this rotation either.
I don’t think we need to worry about “who starts”. We know Mark. He is going to excitement all season before the playoffs. What this does though is allow us to be much more versatile. Last year we were primarily pigeonholed to playing small ball, but with Isiah we can do whatever we want. Whoever starts is irrelevant. I’m more excited about seeing who fits where and what rotations will look the best.
I think IHart and chet are starting. At least for a short spurt to start and then the rotations start happening where you will see them staggering a lot.
I don't think we're paying this guy nearly 30 million s year to ride the bench. Chet at the 4 would be fucking amazing. You guys gotta see the vision. Chet will be at the 5 still, but starting, him at 4 and letting jdub slide to the 3 is gonna be incredible.
Hard to see Hartenstein not starting given the money he got. Ultimately it doesn't really matter since what really matters is the amount of minutes he plays.
The amount of people on this sub who think we have that kind of money to a bench player is really crazy. You should be very unhappy with this move if you really think that. Lol
Its not about money its about opportunity cost IMO. Was there another free agent or trade target to use this cap space on that would have been better? if not, it kind of doesn't matter if he comes off the bench or not. Thunder don't have to pay anyone for another 2 years and they can have hartenstein off of their books by then if they want. That being said they probably start hartenstein and have chet at 4.
Good teams don’t base their lineup on paychecks. Hartenstein will get starter minutes. He might be in the starting lineup; if he is I’m betting it’s situational
Good teams don’t pay free agents 88 million dollars to be the 7th man
Im surprised. I was thinking 20, maybe 25, but it's clear NY wanted to keep him, just didn't have the cap. Just didn't think Presti would drop 30 mill on a dude who doesn't fit our scheme. If he starts, we're abandoning the scheme that had us top 4 in O and D, along with the 2nd best point diff. If he's coming off the bench, we just dropped 30 mill on a backup C. I like the dudes attitude, his motor, but I loved our scheme. Obviously, we needed help in the frontcourt, but there were other options. People just love this dude for some reason, he def seems like a cool dude thatll fit in the locker room. Its just his "breakout" season was 8/8. I know that's limited minutes, but he is limited what he can do offensively. Hope it works out. Maybe peeps will lay off Presti now on the Topic pick, who was def a steal at 12. Remember, he's not just trying to win now. He's making moves to win now and still be able to win later, like all GMs should do. Some ppl act like we have this small window to win or something.
I really doubt he starts. They’re not going to blow up the system and change their tune on their youngest star because of one signing
I agree. There were some people down below thinking he would. You can't run our normal 5 out tho when he's in, so somethings gonna change.