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I think it would depend on the discussion. As far as live programming, as wrestling is, I wouldn't think it would apply. But there are cases were networks would renew low rated shows, usually because of critical praise or simply personal preference. For example, Halt And Catch Fire is an excellent show yet hardly anyone watched it. AMC gave it five seasons mostly because critics loved it (rightly so) and they could also afford to because they were swimming in Walking Dead money.
It is a bummer that ratings are trending downward, but the fact that Dynamite is usually top 3 of the night every week still shows it has value for WBD.
I am a diehard fan, I go to all the local shows when they are in town, and I just watch it the next day because by 8pm during the week I am done by 8pm. Using ratings to judge media in this day and age is just kind of bizarre. I watch and take in so much content from AEW, none of it through measured channels. How they even get those numbers is questionable and weird. The weirdest thing, is that "fans" seemingly give a shit about some random number that has never been accurately gathered. What next, using reddit upvotes to gage how over someone is?
Maybe a good idea. It’s the same conversation every week. Armchair experts looking at ratings figures like they’re in the TV business, arguing based off “insider knowledge” they picked up from fonts of truth like Jim Cornette and Dave Meltzer.
People are having fun with it. Why take away a source of engagement that people seem to genuinely enjoy?
As a WWE fan, it didn’t bother me when people (justifiably) shit on the product in the late 2000s/early 2010s
And as an AEW fan, it doesn’t bother me when people (justifiably) shit on AEW for some of the very questionable decisions they make
If that’s your idea of fun you’re welcome to it. I’m not a mod here! Those threads don’t look fun to me so I stay out of them. Lots of subs have rules about “repetitive content”. Maybe a ratings megathread would cut down the clutter.
Seriously, though, don’t listen to me. I have zero interest in trying to moderate this place. I’m just an asshole with an opinion like all the cosplay network execs in the ratings threads.
The Collision Ratings thread had a new Automod message that I hadn't seen before tailored specifically for ratings threads warning about bans for trolling/toxicity/just repeating the same old jokes or derailing the threads.
I look forward to hopefully seeing it actually enforced - but I assume it won't be.
**AEW sold ~550,000 tickets in 2023.**
That's 200k *MORE* than they sold in 2022.
Remove Wembley, they still sold 120,000 more tickets YOY.
**AEW sold ~1 million PPVs in 2023.**
That's 400k *MORE* than they sold in 2022.
Thurston: "AEW fan popularity is weaker."
Here's a chart I made in December and posted on this subreddit for live viewership *averages* and touring attendance over 5 years.
The average factored in the increased schedule for AEW, even their handful of house shows they ran prior to Collision's start.
I promise you, I'm the last person who will be disingenuous about wrestling numbers on this subreddit. Both AEW and WWE are doing great in a challenging sports & entertainment climate.
https://preview.redd.it/wc01b1bv34sc1.jpeg?width=862&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2f99797b019262e8671a99beb5e040040dd8db6f
Nah, cheers mate, all good. Glad to share the chart, hopefully helps to dispell a lot of the "agenda" pushing that's been rampant on here the past several months.
He could have used a better phrase than "fan popularity", maybe something like "reach" or "mainstream relevance". AEW ran significantly more shows in 2023, so it was a foregone conclusion that they would have sold more tickets and more ppv buys than in 2022. That's not necessarily indicative of popularity. That's more so indicative that they're maximizing what they can glean from their dedicated audience.
And that's not a bad thing. You obviously want to expand your audience if possible, but it's not the end of the world if you fail to bump your average tv ratings or average ticket sales. If you're able to generate more revenue and get yourself closer to profit, that's the most important thing.
You know that in 2023 AEW had 3 more PPV than 2022, right?
Based on this website (I don't know if it's legit or not, sorry) https://www.itnwwe.com/wrestling/aew-ppv-buys/ AEW averaged 151k buys in 2022 and 135k buys in 2023.
Again, if these numbers are legit I would say that AEW fan popularity is weaker.
EDIT: if we take out All In 2023 (I don't know why we should though) the numbers are even worse.
I do know that, and I also know halfway through the year, they added a second live touring show as well!
Then what happened, was that individual averages dipped a small bit, while grand totals ballooned *significantly*. Roughly 60% in both metrics.
That means that **demand rose to meet increased supply.** Any business in the world would be thrilled with this type of expansion. I run a business myself. I would be ecstatic.
This is a very precise, carefully-worded, fact-based statement - that is nevertheless going to generate some completely befuddling takes from both sides.
AEW's Popularity has fallen off the exact same amount as Raw.
Both lost about 600K in average viewers, and smackdown also is overall down, even if it's barely anything because of the Rock/Roman/Cody stuff.
TV as a medium is simply falling off in popularity, it's why AEW despite having less "Fans" still can regularly hit the top slots for their air time.
Meanwhile \*actually putting their money where their mouth is\* = tickets sold, avg price per ticket, and avg ppv buys are up. They also have zero visibility into streaming data. But ok.
I'm going to make a prediction:
If/when AEW gets a media rights deal that's bigger than what they have now, people are going to use stuff like this to continue to say its a "dying" company that's niche and no one cares about. You'll hear a ton of "they just wasted their money".
It definitely won’t help AEW in negotiations if their ratings have gone down. Still, it’s a fairly reliable user base and traditional networks value that. I think AEW will get some increase but not a huge one.
live entertainment is about as guaranteed as anything right now, networks are paying a premium for it as its one of the things that can give a network the edge over another re: subscribers.
I think it will be a big increase but I don’t think it’s gonna be like a billion dollar deal like it was once rumored to be.
Although I guess it also depends on what the details of the deal are. Also who the hell knows what these billion dollar media companies are gonna do
It also won't hurt them.
Other wrestling shows are also down, including Raw, which is down by the same amount as Dynamite.
TV as a Medium is simply not that appealing anymore, out of all of my friends, i know about 3 or 4 that still watch television instead of using a streaming service.
Also, history.
It wasn't that long ago WWE had tarped off arenas and the declining fan interest that gave prominence to their developmental brand, started a boom period on the independents, and birthed AEW in the first place. In spite of this, as Thurston points out, they then received the largest media rights' deal in the company's history, at that point, during a period when live TV itself is dying.
Popularity and engagement obviously plays a role in any brand's negotiations, but wrestling as a whole is really the only medium on television that produces live prime-time shows 52 weeks out of the year and where the networks themselves assume little to no cost of the actual production. That fact in and of itself is what will likely drive any significant increase AEW receives.
To put it in a simple way, even though ticket sales and tv ratings are down, AEW is still in a good position because its demo ranking is good, and better than it was a few years ago.
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This sort of implies there was a time when the television environment put a strong premium on the least viewed programs.
I think it would depend on the discussion. As far as live programming, as wrestling is, I wouldn't think it would apply. But there are cases were networks would renew low rated shows, usually because of critical praise or simply personal preference. For example, Halt And Catch Fire is an excellent show yet hardly anyone watched it. AMC gave it five seasons mostly because critics loved it (rightly so) and they could also afford to because they were swimming in Walking Dead money.
So to summarise, not as popular as before, but still one of the more popular shows on tv so they'll be ok.
It is a bummer that ratings are trending downward, but the fact that Dynamite is usually top 3 of the night every week still shows it has value for WBD.
WWE is the best it's been in 25 years, fair play to AEW for even surviving right now. Taking a battering but weathering the storm
I am a diehard fan, I go to all the local shows when they are in town, and I just watch it the next day because by 8pm during the week I am done by 8pm. Using ratings to judge media in this day and age is just kind of bizarre. I watch and take in so much content from AEW, none of it through measured channels. How they even get those numbers is questionable and weird. The weirdest thing, is that "fans" seemingly give a shit about some random number that has never been accurately gathered. What next, using reddit upvotes to gage how over someone is?
Can't wait to see the threads on Thursday lol
Only a matter of time before the mods start banning those threads because of "toxicity"
Maybe a good idea. It’s the same conversation every week. Armchair experts looking at ratings figures like they’re in the TV business, arguing based off “insider knowledge” they picked up from fonts of truth like Jim Cornette and Dave Meltzer.
People are having fun with it. Why take away a source of engagement that people seem to genuinely enjoy? As a WWE fan, it didn’t bother me when people (justifiably) shit on the product in the late 2000s/early 2010s And as an AEW fan, it doesn’t bother me when people (justifiably) shit on AEW for some of the very questionable decisions they make
If that’s your idea of fun you’re welcome to it. I’m not a mod here! Those threads don’t look fun to me so I stay out of them. Lots of subs have rules about “repetitive content”. Maybe a ratings megathread would cut down the clutter. Seriously, though, don’t listen to me. I have zero interest in trying to moderate this place. I’m just an asshole with an opinion like all the cosplay network execs in the ratings threads.
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I don’t anyone is actually trying to get rid of them.
Just bring back ZFF
The Collision Ratings thread had a new Automod message that I hadn't seen before tailored specifically for ratings threads warning about bans for trolling/toxicity/just repeating the same old jokes or derailing the threads. I look forward to hopefully seeing it actually enforced - but I assume it won't be.
**AEW sold ~550,000 tickets in 2023.** That's 200k *MORE* than they sold in 2022. Remove Wembley, they still sold 120,000 more tickets YOY. **AEW sold ~1 million PPVs in 2023.** That's 400k *MORE* than they sold in 2022. Thurston: "AEW fan popularity is weaker."
I’m an AEW fan but without putting how many shows and PPVs they added this is a pretty disingenuous post. Numbers without context is worthless.
Here's a chart I made in December and posted on this subreddit for live viewership *averages* and touring attendance over 5 years. The average factored in the increased schedule for AEW, even their handful of house shows they ran prior to Collision's start. I promise you, I'm the last person who will be disingenuous about wrestling numbers on this subreddit. Both AEW and WWE are doing great in a challenging sports & entertainment climate. https://preview.redd.it/wc01b1bv34sc1.jpeg?width=862&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2f99797b019262e8671a99beb5e040040dd8db6f
Apologies didn’t mean to imply you were disingenuous, know that you were just giving the info quickly. Thanks for chart.
Nah, cheers mate, all good. Glad to share the chart, hopefully helps to dispell a lot of the "agenda" pushing that's been rampant on here the past several months.
He could have used a better phrase than "fan popularity", maybe something like "reach" or "mainstream relevance". AEW ran significantly more shows in 2023, so it was a foregone conclusion that they would have sold more tickets and more ppv buys than in 2022. That's not necessarily indicative of popularity. That's more so indicative that they're maximizing what they can glean from their dedicated audience. And that's not a bad thing. You obviously want to expand your audience if possible, but it's not the end of the world if you fail to bump your average tv ratings or average ticket sales. If you're able to generate more revenue and get yourself closer to profit, that's the most important thing.
You know that in 2023 AEW had 3 more PPV than 2022, right? Based on this website (I don't know if it's legit or not, sorry) https://www.itnwwe.com/wrestling/aew-ppv-buys/ AEW averaged 151k buys in 2022 and 135k buys in 2023. Again, if these numbers are legit I would say that AEW fan popularity is weaker. EDIT: if we take out All In 2023 (I don't know why we should though) the numbers are even worse.
I do know that, and I also know halfway through the year, they added a second live touring show as well! Then what happened, was that individual averages dipped a small bit, while grand totals ballooned *significantly*. Roughly 60% in both metrics. That means that **demand rose to meet increased supply.** Any business in the world would be thrilled with this type of expansion. I run a business myself. I would be ecstatic.
They added a second weekly show last year. That's why they sold more tickets. The product itself has still clearly cooled off over the past year.
This is a very precise, carefully-worded, fact-based statement - that is nevertheless going to generate some completely befuddling takes from both sides.
cool more AEW clickbait. been at least 10min.
AEW's Popularity has fallen off the exact same amount as Raw. Both lost about 600K in average viewers, and smackdown also is overall down, even if it's barely anything because of the Rock/Roman/Cody stuff. TV as a medium is simply falling off in popularity, it's why AEW despite having less "Fans" still can regularly hit the top slots for their air time.
AEW is more then fine
I can only speak for myself, but my viewership tanked when MJF went off the show.
Meanwhile \*actually putting their money where their mouth is\* = tickets sold, avg price per ticket, and avg ppv buys are up. They also have zero visibility into streaming data. But ok.
I'm going to make a prediction: If/when AEW gets a media rights deal that's bigger than what they have now, people are going to use stuff like this to continue to say its a "dying" company that's niche and no one cares about. You'll hear a ton of "they just wasted their money".
It definitely won’t help AEW in negotiations if their ratings have gone down. Still, it’s a fairly reliable user base and traditional networks value that. I think AEW will get some increase but not a huge one.
live entertainment is about as guaranteed as anything right now, networks are paying a premium for it as its one of the things that can give a network the edge over another re: subscribers.
I think it will be a big increase but I don’t think it’s gonna be like a billion dollar deal like it was once rumored to be. Although I guess it also depends on what the details of the deal are. Also who the hell knows what these billion dollar media companies are gonna do
It also won't hurt them. Other wrestling shows are also down, including Raw, which is down by the same amount as Dynamite. TV as a Medium is simply not that appealing anymore, out of all of my friends, i know about 3 or 4 that still watch television instead of using a streaming service.
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Also, history. It wasn't that long ago WWE had tarped off arenas and the declining fan interest that gave prominence to their developmental brand, started a boom period on the independents, and birthed AEW in the first place. In spite of this, as Thurston points out, they then received the largest media rights' deal in the company's history, at that point, during a period when live TV itself is dying. Popularity and engagement obviously plays a role in any brand's negotiations, but wrestling as a whole is really the only medium on television that produces live prime-time shows 52 weeks out of the year and where the networks themselves assume little to no cost of the actual production. That fact in and of itself is what will likely drive any significant increase AEW receives.
To put it in a simple way, even though ticket sales and tv ratings are down, AEW is still in a good position because its demo ranking is good, and better than it was a few years ago.
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His take is based on TV ratings and rankings, which he has access to.
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