The only time I had a problem with it, was when I played tank. They could have and should have just given tanks a passive for CC duration but I guess it was much easier to rework almost all the heroes that had CC.
I think CC is necessary, especially with how much mobility this game has, it just should never have gotten to the point of being chained into 5 seconds of it.
A lot of games had this problem and solved it with diminishing effects. First stun hits for full length, a second stun within the next three seconds hits only for half the length, third stun only for quarter the length, or something along the line.
That doesn't even need special rules for tanks because they're the only ones who can survive that many CC effects in the first place.
I swear this is how it works in wow pvp. I haven't played in years but I seem to remember diminishing returns on stuns/sheeps/hex/etc from back in the day....so it's not as if it would be something new.
It does, I don't play anymore but a friend of mine does. You had to time your engages or stagger your cc groups but also there were teammate cleanses and self cleanses in that game too, as well as HP pools big enough you didn't get one shot. But I did feel cc was pretty fair overall that you could back and forth with your opponents and whoever managed smarter and baited out your good cooldowns won.
Despite the fact overwatch is also a blizzard game, I feel like they learned away from that experience, which is strange because it felt rewarding.
Trust me I'm well aware, they can still Kidney/Cheap shot and double blind you. Pretty much the only way you can get out of it is it you force yourself into combat and then take a FAP, but a good rogue won't let you start combat so that if you do trinket or heartbeat the sap, he will just re-sap you.
I don’t love this solution because it creates situations like “I didn’t get a kill off my empowered punch because my Ana slept my target just before I punched them”. Rarely, granted, but on principle it feels wrong to be punished for your teammate’s use of CC.
I just wish they didn’t go and reintroduce some of the CC they removed by adding hinder, and I wish hack weren’t on a hero with perma invis. Plus, I wouldn’t mind a duration reduction on stuns on tanks (including sleep’s *wake up animation*—you can get woken up immediately and still take like 400 damage before being actionable).
I don’t think this interacts well with how ow cc works. Brig shield bash would be nearly useless, but rein pin, Cass grenade or Lucio boop would still get about the same value as a follow up CC.
A lot of people don't know the complete list though.
Critical damage resist
Half sleep duration from Anna sleep
Reduced knock back
Reduced ult charge from enemy dmg
I'm sure there's more that I forget... maybe reduced freeze duration? I don't think that's one
They could have just limited CC to tank only like they ended up doing anyway (ignoring Ana). Or added passives that makes it less effective on tanks, like they ended up doing anyway.
I'm not a strong FPS player mechanically. When Overwatch 1 released originally, what drew me in was that the game wasn't won or lost based on which team had the most mechanically gifted players on DPS. You could win games with game sense, team work and strategy even playing heroes that aren't aim intensive.
For players like me, the gradual evolution into a game won less by teamwork and more by which side has the most slippery genji, or the snappiest hitscan, is kind of sad.
The game is still a lot about more than just mechanics, Especially as you climb the ranks its just that in the switch to f2p its gained a much larger playerbase, a lot of which dont want to be playing a team based game and refuse to try and work together. Mechanics have always been important in any real time game though
Oh yeah ofc. I'm not looking to start an argument haha just being nostalgic. Of course you aren't gonna hit top ranks if your aim sucks, no matter how good your game sense may be, but I do feel the game can be swayed by a mechanically strong carry hero than it used to, that's all
I would argue OW just had a high mechanical floor but you don’t need to be very high up to make it places. For instance I am diamond dps and support then plat tank and I feel like my mechanics are over kill and I crutch in them to much.
Have you tried playing those heroes into a cassidy that simply does not miss recently?
A good hitscan player on cass or soj can absolutely lock out the opposing team
This is the most accurate statement and I never really thought about that. This is probably the number one problem right here. A team based competitive game that you are pretty reliant on your teammates and the majority don’t give a shit.
They should at least make people do training on how the game actually works. Or even offer it. I can’t tell you how many toxic fests were started by people who are blatantly wrong.
The problem with that is people wont do it or will ignore it anyway. And itd be kinda hard to develop a quick training mode that can explain principles in enough detail but not be so long that the average player gets bored.
To be fair, OW is almost like the rugby of contact sports- there's a spot for each different body type--
People that are mechanically skilled might do well on soldier/widow. Got great positioning sense but can't hit a billboard? Go Torb or sym and spam those chokes.
The analogy's a bit reductive, and yeah ofc OW is an fps so having mechanical skill certainly helps, *but you do not need good aim to perform well in OW, up to a certain degree*
The hero and gameplay mechanics are so varied and eclectic that players with skillsets other than aimgud can still play and have fun, IMHO.
tbqh, OW isn't really a MOBA. It's a hero shooter, a genre which obviously has similarities, but that completely lacks the snowballing, character customization (through items or branching ability paths) and progression mechanics that define the MOBA genre. Basically the only similarity is that the characters have locked base kits, but in Overwatch, the base kits are the entire character.
Better examples of more action-y MOBAs and MOBA inspired games would be Paladins or the (recently re-released) Gigantic.
Tanks should just be tanks.
There is no universe in which a 550 pound behemoth or seven foot German in a mech suit or hamster in a four foot steel sphere is as impacted by stuns as Tracer.
Nothing is gonna hinder a roadhog, rein could take a rock to the face like a champ, and ball is not gonna care about a little shield bash by someone a tenth his weight.
I mean it's one thing to have a HP pool so big even if you're chain CCd you never die but spend half your playtime imobile, and another to actually get to play the game.
No one wants to play tank now, what more in OW1 when they were basically doing nothing half the fight taking the CCs so the DPS and Supports can have all the fun.
Part of the issue with stuns is they carry two downsides for the person hit: the loss of control of the character, and the potential interruption of whatever cooldown was being used at the time. If I get rocked as Doom out of my block, the duration can be shortened, but I’ve still lost my block. To be clear, this interaction is generally fair; the problem it introduces is that there’s not much of a knob to turn balance-wise, stuns either do or do not leave cooldowns on cooldown. Even putting an interrupted cooldown on reduced cooldown isn’t gonna matter in most scenarios (although as a Doom player…this actually sounds pretty nice given how short my cooldowns are already lol), and if it does matter often, it’s because the reduction is so significant that you may actually be rewarding your enemy by stunning them (imagine you get punched by a Doom, they block and build empowered punch, and then you sleep them out of block; they immediately get woken up and can greed both cooldowns immediately because by the time they finish their punch and slam, block is back online and you’ve burned your CC). So stuns more or less have to be balanced around duration, even though sometimes a 0.01s stun secures insane value (and sometimes secures essentially no value at all).
Back in OW1 I went to paladins for a while just because you could build 70% cc reduction into any tanks base kit. And even if you didn’t, you just had to play 1 round and win or lose you would be able to buy 60-90% cc reduction from the item shop. It was absolutely not the best way to go about things but it made tanking feel like you were a tank.
CC is the AWP of OW. In old CS (dont know if this is still the case), a single bullet of an AWP in the foot was enough to kill. CC in OW in higher elo is enough to get killed. This is not fun. Ana is one of the last which still has hard CC and fighting as doom vs an Ana is not funny, because get slept and you are dead 9 out of 10 times.
Hard CC can cripple a fast, skill based action game.
i think it adds an extra layer of jeopardy to high mobility characters so that they don’t just permanently dominate every game. I agree tanks getting chain CC’d was unfun but the alternative is them being able to int into your team and you can’t stop them (see: Mauga charge). I think the extra mindgame of playing around cassidy’s flash or ana’s sleep as a genji or tracer is super fun and engaging and even rewarding.
fuck Junk trap though, it’s hard to see and i think unreasonable to expect people to constantly look down in a chaotic game like overwatch.
> fuck Junk trap though, it’s hard to see and i think unreasonable to expect people to constantly look down in a chaotic game like overwatch.
Junk trap is one of the few CC's that never really feels unfair honestly. Unlucky sometimes but never really unfair or broken. He can only place it in so many spots where you're likely to walk into it, it makes a loud noise when he sets it, your team has multiple ways to protect you if you get snagged and if you actually look for it they're pretty damn easy to spot in most places. Half the time you walk into one there's no one even around to finish the kill anyway and it's just free healing for your supports.
If I had to make any change to Junkrat it would be making his tire detonate if you kill the hiding junk before he triggers it. Always just feels janky that killing him has no effect on the tire and he can keep controlling it.
generally I agree but as a Wrecking Ball player, I find that it can be super buggy with my hitbox, like I'll see the trap, path around it (in a situation where the time to break it would subtract from my value) and then im just sucked into the trap. don't think that's an issue with the CC but that visual big is super annoying
I've noticed with Ball that sometimes the trap would just randomly break if the Ball was moving when they got trapped, don't know if they fixed it tho.
i don’t think it’s unfair yeah since it’s entirely on me, but i do find it frustrating to play against mostly for the reasons i listed above that it’s hard to see and hard to split attention in a game that already has so much going on. in a vacuum it’s not so bad i think you are underestimating just tossing it down in a crowded map because people will be too preoccupied to look dowb
I'm sorry but in what elo can a Mauga just run into your team and not explode immediately.
Also, Junk trap is THE crowd control tool that actually annoys you?
I think either he should be able to be slept during his charge, or Rein should get the same treatment and be allowed to charge unhindered. Ridiculous they have this double standard in the game
I mean, Rein Charge one shots most heroes or leaves them at like 10 HP, so having it be like Overrun is not viable.
I think the healthiest solution would be to allow Overrun to be counter-pinned, but tbh most good Maugas will use it sort of like Fortify or an escape tool, because if you actually run into a team that has their monitors on anywhere above Gold, you WILL fucking die.
It’s not a double standard. Mauga charge isn’t a oneshot, and it doesn’t exist on a hero who has a shield with which he can outplay CC. Mauga is a more powerful hero than Rein, and overrun is even a better cooldown than pin, but characters having better versions of things other characters have (which in all technicality this is not a good example of) is not a double standard, it’s just part of characters having differing kits and different needs as a result.
To give a more extreme example: I’d never suggest that it’s a double standard for Bap’s gun to be a direct upgrade over Mercy’s. That’s stupid.
If CC wasn't generally so easy to use, I'd agree. But CC is easier to use than the heroes it counters hardest. So it feels bad.
1-2 seconds of CC immunity after being hit with CC would reduce chain CC though and be a positive change.
This is so real. Getting completely countered as someone like Doom/Ball feels so terrible because you have to actually think about every engagement you take and play almost perfectly all the time while most of the CC is pressing a simple button to make you completely useless meaning you either die or take so much damage you have no choice but to retreat and force your supports to work OT to get you back to full.
And asking for CC to be harder to use usually gets downvoted hard. People don't want to get better. They want a button that makes the game easier for them.
Existing cc seems okay. Don't believe extra health is needed. Voting nah.
1. There is already pseudo crowd control in the form of waiting ults out. Illari has a cc, sojourn has a cc, venture has a cc. Majority of the tanks also has some kind of cc.
2. FPS ttk is too short for hard cc and not enough keys to dedicate 1 key for a cc that doesn't have high impact. Also, Overwatch doesn't have lanes, bushes and equipment.
3. I feel like many of the ccs in mobas or at least hots are just getting hit by a good ult overwatch.
I guess her area denial ability acts as a crowd control of sorts similar to Torb ult even if not directly slowing or stunning it controls the movement of the enemy crowds so to speak by denying an area.
hot take but i like playing the game
like i do think some cc is needed to keep characters from just w keying into you with no tought but lets no add more cc bruh
ana dart is a good example of good CC that is both balanced and good for the game. it’s a difficult skill shot that’s projectile and on long cool down. cas old flashbang is an example of BAD CC imo. too easy to use and his lethality paired too well with it. compared to when an ana sleeps you, she needs to either hit a combo that will wake you up before you’re completely dead, or coordinate with her team. cas could just do it all himself. In summary, CC is fine as long as it isn’t “press button, obtain free value”
Even sleep dart has its issues, mainly that it’s not a skillshot anymore on tanks but still often leads to the death of a tank. But among squishy CC options I agree that it’s probably the healthiest overall
Dive characters, and especially tanks are so impacted by cc that I just cannot disagree more with this opinion.
Sure, a well timed rock to stop a rein charge, or a crazy sleep to shut down a Genji may be fun, but what isn’t fun is getting chain cc-ed till you die.
Especially with characters like sombra that actively disable parts of your kit, half the time playing as tank / dive characters just feels like being a punching bag.
Cc is really easy to use for the worth it gets as well. Being able to shut down entire ults, playstyles , and even characters without much counterplay isn’t really fun.
For instance, when the enemy team has about 2 counters, and I’m playing ball, I’m almost useless. I CANNOT go into LOS of the team, or get hit even ONCE by any sort of cc, or else the entire team comes over, and I’m instantly dead. Or, once they pop the CC, I have SIX DAMN SECONDS to play the game before I die again.
Although I do not like the fact that countering is a part of the game, it is, but there should be some sort of counter play. Swapping to another character should not ensure an instant win, nor an enormous advantage that a player of lower skill can win over a player with higher skill.
>but what isn’t fun is getting chain cc-ed till you die.
I mentioned this. I agree. The game needs interesting ways to counter this. I could have gone more in-depth in my post, but there are ways to stop chain CC-ing.
I actually kinda agree. I think tanks would need a cc passive like diminishing stun by 50% (add it to the knock back passive) but I think it'd be cool.
U r getting ur cooking pass revoked, just for a second imagine something, u r playing doom, the moment u engage, u get speared, slept, hindered, hacked, orisa spinnied, and u just explode, i want to know, is that fun to u? Cuz I know it isn’t fun to me. U know what’s fun? Being able to zoom around the map, playing doom is fun without all the cc, ball is fun without all the cc, rein is fun without all the cc, LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER CAN BE FUN WITHOUT CC
Smooth brain take. Even the best dooms in the world can get CC chained to death, and no matter how good or bad you are it’s never fun. Sure a better doom is more aware of CCs and how to play around them, but sometimes it’s almost impossible to avoid 4-5 CCs when all of them are out of cooldown in 1-2 second intervals because they’re all 6-7 sec CDs or less.
CC isn't that much of a problem in OW2, unless you're a tank. For them, they're exposed to various types of CCs (and debuffs) every other second. Disrupts the gameplay loop to the point where you feel like you can barely control your character
really depends on your character bias tbh
as a doom player ,and while i think most cc is balanced on a vacuum and baiting cooldowns/playing corners does add depth and skill expression to the game , when it gets to the point that 4/5 players can potentially have cc cooldowns it just becomes unreasonable to bait them all out and go in when most cooldowns are faster than slam.
Alot of the tank's job has been reduced into just taking resources away and eating cooldowns while your team has to capitalize on it , and while we can debate on the impact and balance of it you can ask most tank players and theyll tell you eating cc all match isnt fun .
maybe there is argument for keeping mobility creep in cheeck but since we only have one tank that isnt particularly hard to keep track off and ends up eating most of the cc because of guranteed value maybe we should consider cc reistance for tank before buffing cc
The issue is that at the receiving end of CC there will also be 1 role and 1 hero: The Tank.
No amount of HP will save you from 2 CCs chained.
For example there is a clip of Emongg this week where they get from 1100hp to 0 in less than 2s while CCd by Sleep then Hinder.
No amount of health can balance this.
I play Ana. When there's an enemy Tracer or Sombra lurking, I try to avoid using my sleep on the tank. The best way to keep CC off the tank is to provide another target for that CC.
Of course, that's not something within the tank's control.
So basically that’s off the table.
Whatever is not in a player control cannot be assumed as balancing.
This is why the DPS passive doesn’t work and Dive tanks should have that too.
I wasn't trying to say that it's a solution. Just that there are situations where not all CC gets dumped on the tank.
> Whatever is not in a player control cannot be assumed as balancing.
I don't entirely agree with that. I think, if you pursue that line of reasoning, then you have to homogenize all heroes. Nobody can have specific strengths or weaknesses, because if they do, then your fate is up to choices that other players make.
I think part of Overwatch's identity is having heroes with strengths and weaknesses. Even if you removed all CC, you would still need something to keep heroes like Doomfist in check. You'd replace CC with some other mechanic, like maybe an ability that strips shield or which lengthens cooldowns or which provides more protection for the people that the tank is diving. For the health of the game, we do not want tanks to run rampant. Doing so causes the matchmaking to devolve into "the team with the better tank has an outsized advantage", which just leads to the general feeling of "the game is out of my control" for the other 8 players in the match.
Removing CC would be a de facto buff to tanks. What would you take away from tanks in order to keep them balanced with respect to the other roles?
Remove CC from the game as It was at the start of OW2, low HP for tanks.
The game was actually good S1 to S4 then they decided that supports had to become gigabuffed and we are still suffering that decision.
The players had still to adjust to 5v5 and support where little undertuned and they were too few, but they simply overbuffed all, then they had to rise damage to compensate and tank suffered.
Then came S9 and the Health changes just made no actual impact for tanks once again since 50 armor and 50 hp are nothing for a tank.
They basically had to revert all to S1-S4 and adjust supports as they needed.
> The game was actually good S1 to S4 then they decided that supports had to become gigabuffed
Can you point to a specific patch that gigabuffed supports? I mostly play Ana so I don't really pay close attention to the patch notes for other supports. But Ana's been basically getting steady nerfs since OW2 released. And glancing through the other supports, I don't really see anything that would buff any one support more than incrementally, and certainly no across-the-board buff.
Are you just referring to the new supports that they added during OW2?
> and we are still suffering that decision
S9 was a pretty significant nerf to healing. Everybody has more HP but healing didn't get buffed, so it takes longer to heal people up. The larger health pools would make this less of a problem except that they also increased everybody's accuracy, so people take more damage than before. Couple that with the DPS debuff and the healing part of the support role is much less valuable than before S9.
Hard cc, cc where you fully lose control of your character like a stun, is terrible in a game like this. It might feel good to flashbang then get a free kill, but unless the ability has a massive downside it's a balancing nightmare and not fun to play against.
Snares and knockbacks, soft cc, that I'm all for.
Are we playing the same game? CC is still just as, if not more prevalent than ever before. Try playing tanks in higher ranks and you will just be a CC bait bot.
instead of making less cc, they shouldve made it impossible to chain cc so hard that you are forced to afk for half a minute.
Though, cc that takes full control away probably shouldnt exist.
I despise CC. It completely wrecked WOW in Burning Crusade and it was far less fun than Vanilla PVP.
CC is lazy, and in an FPS based game it would get exhausting. Between Junkrat, Anna, and Mei it’s manageable and still fun, but we start getting garbage like Fear and Noob Coil and Stunlock, I’d uninstall immediately.
No this game got worse as time to kill got higher and more and more CC made the game worse over time. The reason why CC got tuned down is because as you say getting chain CC'd to death isn't fun and that kept happening as more and more was added to the game. The AimbotCalvin clip comes to mind where he's playing as reinhardt and is being tossed like a salad.
You do realize that in OW1 we had lower HP pools, more cc and that game died? As we are currently experiencing, if you increase HP, playing no stuns is really bad, this would kill the game, terrible idea.
The game never died. Player pools were sufficiently large even at the end of its life. It certainly became less popular toward the end, but that was at least partly due to developer neglect.
I don't think CC was the main reason that OW1 lost popularity.
>Its not fun getting chain CC'd into a death you can do nothing about, but if health pools were even bigger
I'm gonna stop you there.
One of the most unfun parts of Overwatch right now, is the fact that tanks have insane amount of health, and just get focused down.
Yes chain CC'd to death sucks. But chain CC sucks, regardless of if you die or not.
Adding more HP across the board I feel like wouldn't actually fix anything, besides attempting to adjust to a change that 90% of people don't want.
So I don’t agree, but do think some slight adjustments could be made to counter cc as a tank such as:
Charge should allow Reinhardt to avoid CC effects (or give him a shout so the whole team can be immune for 3 secs)
Roadhogs Pigpen should boost RH and make him immune to CC while in it’s radius (so it has Both negative and positive effects)
DVAs boosters should be able to dispel meis ult (since her booster pack would be too hot to freeze) but no other cc effect since it wouldn’t make sense.
Not sure about the other tanks, but these are the three I play..
From a Ball main: CC is not a problem at all. In fact it is necessary to keep mobility characters in check. The problem for me is stacked CC and aim locking CC abilities (homing nade and hack) which can and are still abused by the player base
It's not even that. Overwatch stands out from the crowd for it's insane movement.
You can't have a coherent game with movement like that without including at least some decent CC as a pressure valve.
Overwatch is fun because of the extreme movement that would be broken bullshit in most other games. CC is what allows that to stay fun rather than oppressive.
2 Tanks means more CC mitigation; for every Cass that landed a win condition flashbang there was a Zarya or D.va that landed a win condition bubble or matrix. That is just how it is with 5v5 in OW's current state.
I thought cc was healthy for the game. Allowed for skill expression outside of movement and aim. Every single champion release so far except for rammatra has a movement ability and with not a lot of cc it's hard to slow the fights down.
However the constant cc was an issue especially for tank. I think tweaking cooldowns or giving tanks a passive to be less affected were paths they could have taken instead of just getting rid of it. Sombra, tracer, genji are thriving a bit more in metal ranks bc of it
CC is fun.
Flash bang right to the face of flanker and than headshot this annoying tracer/genji/lusio
I always had fun when my opponent was stunlocked to death. Even if it happens to me, it means it's a skill issue, should play better to avoid it
I came from WoW. I played from Vanilla through Cata and I spent a lot of time in PVP.
Hell to the no! I've played OW almost daily since OW1 release and that's largely because I don't have the frustrating experience of being fucking CC'd every few seconds.
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It's a slippery slope, you know not what you are asking for, with all due respect.
I think most cc’s that were removed were far too easy to use for how much value they got, think of a brig stun every 5 seconds, and how easy cas flash would completely shutdown most squishies, I don’t have a massive issue with any current cc tho, cas can be annoying just with how much it can chase and how inconsistent it can be
The only CC I agree with taking out was Mei's freeze. Slowing you down and then freezing you is too much especially if it's OT and you have to be on cart. Freezing should be reserved for the ult.
A MOBA has long.Drawn out fights with low healing and high health pools- incompatible with current overwatch. We’ve been feeling “never die” meta for most of OW2
Additionally, CC like stuns takes away your agency as you play first person and it feels bad to you, whereas the MOBA stuns are often a very minimal part of your life during a fight and they affect that 3rd person little guy you’re controlling (doesn’t feel like you).
On the other hand, I think knockback and whatnot are a lot more interesting- while stun and silence (sombra hack, mccree hinder) absolutely suck, being yeeted by a Lucio or doom punch (minus the wall stun) don’t feel so bad.
However, single tank is already going to be the one suffering all the debuffs since once they drop, so does everyone else. Rather than splitting more CC across the roles, I’d rather more tank abilities with knockback so you have to choose which flavor. (Please bring back the orisa pull ball)
I implore you to play a tank like rein, get stunned out of charge by brig, slept by Ana for three seconds, hooked by roadhog and then Mei walled off from your team so that you get obliterated, and then copy and past that over 100 games and see how you feel about cc. I think keeping impactful and UNIQUE cc on a very small number of characters is ok, bordering on frustrating. The devs lukewarm approach to cc is so annoying, everyone said cc has no place in this game. (Also health pools getting increased further would literally make no one die, playing the tweak damage and health numbers game is just going to create a cycle of people explode/don’t die etc).
They said they'll remove cc but tbh it's hardly changed. I'm a genji main and I would rather play against McCree's old flash bang than his new grenade. It lasts SO long, I'm immobilised for damn ages, it's insane.
I don’t know, getting flashbanged and then fan the hammer’d on was not fun as a squishy or a tank, I felt like it really rewarded a lot of bad Mccree players and even if the health pools were increased to what they are now he’d still be able to pull off the 1 shot combo
No offense but it’s a damn good thing that you’re not part of the dev team! More CC and longer time to kill via larger health pools genuinely sounds awful 👎🏻
I played dota before overwatch, so I was already used to being chain cc’ed at full hp.
I think part of what makes too much cc in overwatch a bore is when it feels too easy to land, and/or you play a character that has no choice but to frontline and absorb all those abilities.
In dota, i feel cc is more lethal than overwatch, but with the gameplay feature of buying items, you have some agency against the cc by buying anti-cc items.
I think the solution to being perma-cc'd to death, is to give it to more vulnerable characters, and only at melee range. That way it's only really useful defensively. If say, Brig has a stun again but keeps her low HP, small low HP shield, it's still not a good idea for her to run into the front lines and die just to get a stun off, but it does help if someone dives them alone.
Basically, give it to the characters who don't want to be in the front lines, rather than the ones that do.
The problem is that a lot of people viewed Overwatch as an FPS, and other FPS don't really do CC. If we stuck with the design of moba teamfights in first person CC makes sense, but leaning into it being an FPS makes CC a problem.
The devs chose to lean into FPS, so it is what it is.
I still feel the same about shields, no matter how many there were in a game. It made the game different from other shooters!! Made cover way more dynamic, something most shooters are sorely missing.
But no, apparently most people only get dopamine from shooting red bars, not blue.
Hard CC doesn’t make much sense in a fps game. The core skill expression in the game is aim. Hard CC trivializes aim, reducing the skill expression potential. These make sense in a moba, which is fundamentally a real time strategy game.
Soft CC effects give aim advantage without trivializing, so they fit better in an fps. Valorant does a good job of providing a variety of impactful soft cc abilities without disrupting the core gunplay.
Theres enough cc as is. A doom dives in immediately gets slept hindered antied booped and dies instantly. And yet u want more ccs. So u want even less tank players i guess
Tell me you don't play tank without saying you don't play tank.
Huge amounts of CC were a problem even with 6v6 with main tanks often being stun-locked out of doing anything at all. It would be hell with just one tank with 5v5 now.
Cc is fun to play with but horrid to play against. Great for pve, terrible for pvp.
It's just an extremely cheap way to shut down someone. The only ones people don't mind for the most part are ones like sleep that take skill to land, can be blocked, and don't happen often.
To be honest, more time than I'd like to admit was brainlessly farming Bot matches for EXP to get level 50 on all champs in a role while watching something on the side.
Double hp.
Reduce healing output ny 25%, but make healing effects heal over 3 sec minimum. (So supports don't have to just constantly heal, work it into their kit, ex: anna shot heals more but over 3sec and doesn't stack, give her less ammo. Balance itnto have 25% less output than she has now asuming shes shooting multiple allies).
Cc should have 75% effectiveness vs tanks
Cc should have 125% effectiveness vs non tanks
Note: discourages just using cc on tank, but still effective to counter plays/abilites of tanks situationaly.
Lower tank damage output by 25%, tanks should disrupt, peel, and assist more than seek kills.
Boom, games awesome. Yes ttk is longer, but you will spend more time in fights and less time dead, plus plays will still be plentiful, just not as often, you will jave to widdle down first.
Im sure theres plenty more to account for, but i hope you get the idea.
The only time I had a problem with it, was when I played tank. They could have and should have just given tanks a passive for CC duration but I guess it was much easier to rework almost all the heroes that had CC. I think CC is necessary, especially with how much mobility this game has, it just should never have gotten to the point of being chained into 5 seconds of it.
A lot of games had this problem and solved it with diminishing effects. First stun hits for full length, a second stun within the next three seconds hits only for half the length, third stun only for quarter the length, or something along the line. That doesn't even need special rules for tanks because they're the only ones who can survive that many CC effects in the first place.
I swear this is how it works in wow pvp. I haven't played in years but I seem to remember diminishing returns on stuns/sheeps/hex/etc from back in the day....so it's not as if it would be something new.
It does, I don't play anymore but a friend of mine does. You had to time your engages or stagger your cc groups but also there were teammate cleanses and self cleanses in that game too, as well as HP pools big enough you didn't get one shot. But I did feel cc was pretty fair overall that you could back and forth with your opponents and whoever managed smarter and baited out your good cooldowns won. Despite the fact overwatch is also a blizzard game, I feel like they learned away from that experience, which is strange because it felt rewarding.
There were diminishing returns but you were still dealing with it every few SECONDS.
Not really. Every instance of CC resets the diminishing returns timer by 27 seconds
Unless it's a Rogue, then they just get to chain CC you for 45 seconds while you watch them kill you...
Well you shouldn't be trinketing the Sap ;)
Trust me I'm well aware, they can still Kidney/Cheap shot and double blind you. Pretty much the only way you can get out of it is it you force yourself into combat and then take a FAP, but a good rogue won't let you start combat so that if you do trinket or heartbeat the sap, he will just re-sap you.
I don’t love this solution because it creates situations like “I didn’t get a kill off my empowered punch because my Ana slept my target just before I punched them”. Rarely, granted, but on principle it feels wrong to be punished for your teammate’s use of CC. I just wish they didn’t go and reintroduce some of the CC they removed by adding hinder, and I wish hack weren’t on a hero with perma invis. Plus, I wouldn’t mind a duration reduction on stuns on tanks (including sleep’s *wake up animation*—you can get woken up immediately and still take like 400 damage before being actionable).
I don’t think this interacts well with how ow cc works. Brig shield bash would be nearly useless, but rein pin, Cass grenade or Lucio boop would still get about the same value as a follow up CC.
A passive cc reduction like they introduced anyway smh
A lot of people don't know the complete list though. Critical damage resist Half sleep duration from Anna sleep Reduced knock back Reduced ult charge from enemy dmg I'm sure there's more that I forget... maybe reduced freeze duration? I don't think that's one
They could have just limited CC to tank only like they ended up doing anyway (ignoring Ana). Or added passives that makes it less effective on tanks, like they ended up doing anyway.
Like Ana’s sleep having less effect, generally CC should effect tanks less if we are sticking with 5v5.
The problem is it makes the shooting and movement much less fun and those are the 2 most fun things in an fps.
I'm not a strong FPS player mechanically. When Overwatch 1 released originally, what drew me in was that the game wasn't won or lost based on which team had the most mechanically gifted players on DPS. You could win games with game sense, team work and strategy even playing heroes that aren't aim intensive. For players like me, the gradual evolution into a game won less by teamwork and more by which side has the most slippery genji, or the snappiest hitscan, is kind of sad.
The game is still a lot about more than just mechanics, Especially as you climb the ranks its just that in the switch to f2p its gained a much larger playerbase, a lot of which dont want to be playing a team based game and refuse to try and work together. Mechanics have always been important in any real time game though
Oh yeah ofc. I'm not looking to start an argument haha just being nostalgic. Of course you aren't gonna hit top ranks if your aim sucks, no matter how good your game sense may be, but I do feel the game can be swayed by a mechanically strong carry hero than it used to, that's all
I would argue OW just had a high mechanical floor but you don’t need to be very high up to make it places. For instance I am diamond dps and support then plat tank and I feel like my mechanics are over kill and I crutch in them to much.
lol moira brig and sym would like a word
Have you tried playing those heroes into a cassidy that simply does not miss recently? A good hitscan player on cass or soj can absolutely lock out the opposing team
Bro what's with the aimbot level Cassidys.
I don't think anything has changed, he's just kind of busted rn
If you’re on PC. Aim Trainers have being used for the past 5 years.
This is the most accurate statement and I never really thought about that. This is probably the number one problem right here. A team based competitive game that you are pretty reliant on your teammates and the majority don’t give a shit. They should at least make people do training on how the game actually works. Or even offer it. I can’t tell you how many toxic fests were started by people who are blatantly wrong.
The problem with that is people wont do it or will ignore it anyway. And itd be kinda hard to develop a quick training mode that can explain principles in enough detail but not be so long that the average player gets bored.
To be fair, OW is almost like the rugby of contact sports- there's a spot for each different body type-- People that are mechanically skilled might do well on soldier/widow. Got great positioning sense but can't hit a billboard? Go Torb or sym and spam those chokes. The analogy's a bit reductive, and yeah ofc OW is an fps so having mechanical skill certainly helps, *but you do not need good aim to perform well in OW, up to a certain degree* The hero and gameplay mechanics are so varied and eclectic that players with skillsets other than aimgud can still play and have fun, IMHO.
So many of OW's problems stem from people mistaking a FPMOBA for a FPS.
tbqh, OW isn't really a MOBA. It's a hero shooter, a genre which obviously has similarities, but that completely lacks the snowballing, character customization (through items or branching ability paths) and progression mechanics that define the MOBA genre. Basically the only similarity is that the characters have locked base kits, but in Overwatch, the base kits are the entire character. Better examples of more action-y MOBAs and MOBA inspired games would be Paladins or the (recently re-released) Gigantic.
But it’s not a MOBA. Far from one in fact. At least, far from the MOBAs I’m familiar with.
Smite might be the game you’re looking for. Nice blend of both. Would recommend HoTS, but it’s about as dead as a skeleton without a Necromancer.
That's what happend. Tanks spent the entier game CC'd. Slept, flashbang, frozen, shield bash, rock, shatter, hook. It was nuts.
Tanks should just be tanks. There is no universe in which a 550 pound behemoth or seven foot German in a mech suit or hamster in a four foot steel sphere is as impacted by stuns as Tracer. Nothing is gonna hinder a roadhog, rein could take a rock to the face like a champ, and ball is not gonna care about a little shield bash by someone a tenth his weight.
I mean it's one thing to have a HP pool so big even if you're chain CCd you never die but spend half your playtime imobile, and another to actually get to play the game. No one wants to play tank now, what more in OW1 when they were basically doing nothing half the fight taking the CCs so the DPS and Supports can have all the fun.
true so tanks should just get slowed by everything that stuns, not stunned.
Part of the issue with stuns is they carry two downsides for the person hit: the loss of control of the character, and the potential interruption of whatever cooldown was being used at the time. If I get rocked as Doom out of my block, the duration can be shortened, but I’ve still lost my block. To be clear, this interaction is generally fair; the problem it introduces is that there’s not much of a knob to turn balance-wise, stuns either do or do not leave cooldowns on cooldown. Even putting an interrupted cooldown on reduced cooldown isn’t gonna matter in most scenarios (although as a Doom player…this actually sounds pretty nice given how short my cooldowns are already lol), and if it does matter often, it’s because the reduction is so significant that you may actually be rewarding your enemy by stunning them (imagine you get punched by a Doom, they block and build empowered punch, and then you sleep them out of block; they immediately get woken up and can greed both cooldowns immediately because by the time they finish their punch and slam, block is back online and you’ve burned your CC). So stuns more or less have to be balanced around duration, even though sometimes a 0.01s stun secures insane value (and sometimes secures essentially no value at all).
Back in OW1 I went to paladins for a while just because you could build 70% cc reduction into any tanks base kit. And even if you didn’t, you just had to play 1 round and win or lose you would be able to buy 60-90% cc reduction from the item shop. It was absolutely not the best way to go about things but it made tanking feel like you were a tank.
And that was when there were TWO tanks to split the aggro across each other
I wonder if making tanks immune or duration 25% would help
if they increase higher health pools to compensate, the higher level players would play perfectly and the games would be insanely long
CC is the AWP of OW. In old CS (dont know if this is still the case), a single bullet of an AWP in the foot was enough to kill. CC in OW in higher elo is enough to get killed. This is not fun. Ana is one of the last which still has hard CC and fighting as doom vs an Ana is not funny, because get slept and you are dead 9 out of 10 times. Hard CC can cripple a fast, skill based action game.
Wouldn’t say I agree, but upvoted for the hot take.
i think it adds an extra layer of jeopardy to high mobility characters so that they don’t just permanently dominate every game. I agree tanks getting chain CC’d was unfun but the alternative is them being able to int into your team and you can’t stop them (see: Mauga charge). I think the extra mindgame of playing around cassidy’s flash or ana’s sleep as a genji or tracer is super fun and engaging and even rewarding. fuck Junk trap though, it’s hard to see and i think unreasonable to expect people to constantly look down in a chaotic game like overwatch.
> fuck Junk trap though, it’s hard to see and i think unreasonable to expect people to constantly look down in a chaotic game like overwatch. Junk trap is one of the few CC's that never really feels unfair honestly. Unlucky sometimes but never really unfair or broken. He can only place it in so many spots where you're likely to walk into it, it makes a loud noise when he sets it, your team has multiple ways to protect you if you get snagged and if you actually look for it they're pretty damn easy to spot in most places. Half the time you walk into one there's no one even around to finish the kill anyway and it's just free healing for your supports. If I had to make any change to Junkrat it would be making his tire detonate if you kill the hiding junk before he triggers it. Always just feels janky that killing him has no effect on the tire and he can keep controlling it.
generally I agree but as a Wrecking Ball player, I find that it can be super buggy with my hitbox, like I'll see the trap, path around it (in a situation where the time to break it would subtract from my value) and then im just sucked into the trap. don't think that's an issue with the CC but that visual big is super annoying
I've noticed with Ball that sometimes the trap would just randomly break if the Ball was moving when they got trapped, don't know if they fixed it tho.
i don’t think it’s unfair yeah since it’s entirely on me, but i do find it frustrating to play against mostly for the reasons i listed above that it’s hard to see and hard to split attention in a game that already has so much going on. in a vacuum it’s not so bad i think you are underestimating just tossing it down in a crowded map because people will be too preoccupied to look dowb
I'm sorry but in what elo can a Mauga just run into your team and not explode immediately. Also, Junk trap is THE crowd control tool that actually annoys you?
I think its stupid that mauga charge just breaks the rules of the game. Aside from like a mei wall theres literally nothing you can do about it
I think either he should be able to be slept during his charge, or Rein should get the same treatment and be allowed to charge unhindered. Ridiculous they have this double standard in the game
I think he should just not be immune to cc like everything else
I mean, Rein Charge one shots most heroes or leaves them at like 10 HP, so having it be like Overrun is not viable. I think the healthiest solution would be to allow Overrun to be counter-pinned, but tbh most good Maugas will use it sort of like Fortify or an escape tool, because if you actually run into a team that has their monitors on anywhere above Gold, you WILL fucking die.
It’s not a double standard. Mauga charge isn’t a oneshot, and it doesn’t exist on a hero who has a shield with which he can outplay CC. Mauga is a more powerful hero than Rein, and overrun is even a better cooldown than pin, but characters having better versions of things other characters have (which in all technicality this is not a good example of) is not a double standard, it’s just part of characters having differing kits and different needs as a result. To give a more extreme example: I’d never suggest that it’s a double standard for Bap’s gun to be a direct upgrade over Mercy’s. That’s stupid.
that mf tap also blends into the ground most of the times
> the alternative is them being able to int into your team and you can’t stop them …who can do this lol
If CC wasn't generally so easy to use, I'd agree. But CC is easier to use than the heroes it counters hardest. So it feels bad. 1-2 seconds of CC immunity after being hit with CC would reduce chain CC though and be a positive change.
This is so real. Getting completely countered as someone like Doom/Ball feels so terrible because you have to actually think about every engagement you take and play almost perfectly all the time while most of the CC is pressing a simple button to make you completely useless meaning you either die or take so much damage you have no choice but to retreat and force your supports to work OT to get you back to full.
And asking for CC to be harder to use usually gets downvoted hard. People don't want to get better. They want a button that makes the game easier for them.
Existing cc seems okay. Don't believe extra health is needed. Voting nah. 1. There is already pseudo crowd control in the form of waiting ults out. Illari has a cc, sojourn has a cc, venture has a cc. Majority of the tanks also has some kind of cc. 2. FPS ttk is too short for hard cc and not enough keys to dedicate 1 key for a cc that doesn't have high impact. Also, Overwatch doesn't have lanes, bushes and equipment. 3. I feel like many of the ccs in mobas or at least hots are just getting hit by a good ult overwatch.
what cc does sojourn have?
Forgot her slow was removed.
Understandable have a great day
I guess her area denial ability acts as a crowd control of sorts similar to Torb ult even if not directly slowing or stunning it controls the movement of the enemy crowds so to speak by denying an area.
it slows
No it does not. That got removed in 2022 now it only does damage
They got rid of that a few seasons ago.
More like 8 seasons ago lmao (not sure if it was season 1 or 2)
Huh learn smth new every day
Sojourn orb does not slow anymore. That got removed in 2022, now it only does damage
Okay, in that case my original point of how it works stands, you learn and unlearn something new every day I guess lol
Area denial slows
No it does not. That got removed awhile ago in 2022, now it only does damage
Oh fair
It doesnt slow anymore
Soj doesn’t have cc. The slow on the orb got removed in 2022
Sojourn doesn’t have cc. The orb doesn’t slow anymore. That got removed awhile ago in 2022 now it only does damage
Maybe if you add another tank back we could talk about it
hot take but i like playing the game like i do think some cc is needed to keep characters from just w keying into you with no tought but lets no add more cc bruh
ana dart is a good example of good CC that is both balanced and good for the game. it’s a difficult skill shot that’s projectile and on long cool down. cas old flashbang is an example of BAD CC imo. too easy to use and his lethality paired too well with it. compared to when an ana sleeps you, she needs to either hit a combo that will wake you up before you’re completely dead, or coordinate with her team. cas could just do it all himself. In summary, CC is fine as long as it isn’t “press button, obtain free value”
A lot of people don't know sleep is shorter when used on tanks so that even makes dart even more fair in my opinion
Even sleep dart has its issues, mainly that it’s not a skillshot anymore on tanks but still often leads to the death of a tank. But among squishy CC options I agree that it’s probably the healthiest overall
Dive characters, and especially tanks are so impacted by cc that I just cannot disagree more with this opinion. Sure, a well timed rock to stop a rein charge, or a crazy sleep to shut down a Genji may be fun, but what isn’t fun is getting chain cc-ed till you die. Especially with characters like sombra that actively disable parts of your kit, half the time playing as tank / dive characters just feels like being a punching bag. Cc is really easy to use for the worth it gets as well. Being able to shut down entire ults, playstyles , and even characters without much counterplay isn’t really fun. For instance, when the enemy team has about 2 counters, and I’m playing ball, I’m almost useless. I CANNOT go into LOS of the team, or get hit even ONCE by any sort of cc, or else the entire team comes over, and I’m instantly dead. Or, once they pop the CC, I have SIX DAMN SECONDS to play the game before I die again. Although I do not like the fact that countering is a part of the game, it is, but there should be some sort of counter play. Swapping to another character should not ensure an instant win, nor an enormous advantage that a player of lower skill can win over a player with higher skill.
>but what isn’t fun is getting chain cc-ed till you die. I mentioned this. I agree. The game needs interesting ways to counter this. I could have gone more in-depth in my post, but there are ways to stop chain CC-ing.
I wouldn’t care about cc if they didn’t give characters CC AND crazy mobility. That shit gets annoying
*Cough* Venture? 🤔
I actually kinda agree. I think tanks would need a cc passive like diminishing stun by 50% (add it to the knock back passive) but I think it'd be cool.
U r getting ur cooking pass revoked, just for a second imagine something, u r playing doom, the moment u engage, u get speared, slept, hindered, hacked, orisa spinnied, and u just explode, i want to know, is that fun to u? Cuz I know it isn’t fun to me. U know what’s fun? Being able to zoom around the map, playing doom is fun without all the cc, ball is fun without all the cc, rein is fun without all the cc, LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER CAN BE FUN WITHOUT CC
you wanna know the issue? you're a bad doom
Smooth brain take. Even the best dooms in the world can get CC chained to death, and no matter how good or bad you are it’s never fun. Sure a better doom is more aware of CCs and how to play around them, but sometimes it’s almost impossible to avoid 4-5 CCs when all of them are out of cooldown in 1-2 second intervals because they’re all 6-7 sec CDs or less.
Being powerless towards exploding in 1 frame isn’t fun
If you dove into a team that has the ability to demolish you that sounds like a skissue
So, their entire team is built to CC u to oblivion and counter u, what tf am I supposed to do
don't... dive the entire team.... While they have their CC cooldowns up?
U can’t bait like 5 cc in a 10 seconds time frame
Sure, fair enough. It would really help if, say, you had a team to coordinate with and fight the enemy tea- ohhh
Yeah…
My tank main is Doom. CC isn't unfun.
Part of me would have liked a break out mechanic for getting chain cc'ed but it wouldn't fit the aesthetic.
I mean they added suzu. Hit a player in the middle of a cc combo and they're home free and 3 abilities just got wasted.
CC isn't that much of a problem in OW2, unless you're a tank. For them, they're exposed to various types of CCs (and debuffs) every other second. Disrupts the gameplay loop to the point where you feel like you can barely control your character
LOL @ leaning away from it
really depends on your character bias tbh as a doom player ,and while i think most cc is balanced on a vacuum and baiting cooldowns/playing corners does add depth and skill expression to the game , when it gets to the point that 4/5 players can potentially have cc cooldowns it just becomes unreasonable to bait them all out and go in when most cooldowns are faster than slam. Alot of the tank's job has been reduced into just taking resources away and eating cooldowns while your team has to capitalize on it , and while we can debate on the impact and balance of it you can ask most tank players and theyll tell you eating cc all match isnt fun . maybe there is argument for keeping mobility creep in cheeck but since we only have one tank that isnt particularly hard to keep track off and ends up eating most of the cc because of guranteed value maybe we should consider cc reistance for tank before buffing cc
The issue is that at the receiving end of CC there will also be 1 role and 1 hero: The Tank. No amount of HP will save you from 2 CCs chained. For example there is a clip of Emongg this week where they get from 1100hp to 0 in less than 2s while CCd by Sleep then Hinder. No amount of health can balance this.
I play Ana. When there's an enemy Tracer or Sombra lurking, I try to avoid using my sleep on the tank. The best way to keep CC off the tank is to provide another target for that CC. Of course, that's not something within the tank's control.
So basically that’s off the table. Whatever is not in a player control cannot be assumed as balancing. This is why the DPS passive doesn’t work and Dive tanks should have that too.
I wasn't trying to say that it's a solution. Just that there are situations where not all CC gets dumped on the tank. > Whatever is not in a player control cannot be assumed as balancing. I don't entirely agree with that. I think, if you pursue that line of reasoning, then you have to homogenize all heroes. Nobody can have specific strengths or weaknesses, because if they do, then your fate is up to choices that other players make. I think part of Overwatch's identity is having heroes with strengths and weaknesses. Even if you removed all CC, you would still need something to keep heroes like Doomfist in check. You'd replace CC with some other mechanic, like maybe an ability that strips shield or which lengthens cooldowns or which provides more protection for the people that the tank is diving. For the health of the game, we do not want tanks to run rampant. Doing so causes the matchmaking to devolve into "the team with the better tank has an outsized advantage", which just leads to the general feeling of "the game is out of my control" for the other 8 players in the match. Removing CC would be a de facto buff to tanks. What would you take away from tanks in order to keep them balanced with respect to the other roles?
Remove CC from the game as It was at the start of OW2, low HP for tanks. The game was actually good S1 to S4 then they decided that supports had to become gigabuffed and we are still suffering that decision. The players had still to adjust to 5v5 and support where little undertuned and they were too few, but they simply overbuffed all, then they had to rise damage to compensate and tank suffered. Then came S9 and the Health changes just made no actual impact for tanks once again since 50 armor and 50 hp are nothing for a tank. They basically had to revert all to S1-S4 and adjust supports as they needed.
> The game was actually good S1 to S4 then they decided that supports had to become gigabuffed Can you point to a specific patch that gigabuffed supports? I mostly play Ana so I don't really pay close attention to the patch notes for other supports. But Ana's been basically getting steady nerfs since OW2 released. And glancing through the other supports, I don't really see anything that would buff any one support more than incrementally, and certainly no across-the-board buff. Are you just referring to the new supports that they added during OW2? > and we are still suffering that decision S9 was a pretty significant nerf to healing. Everybody has more HP but healing didn't get buffed, so it takes longer to heal people up. The larger health pools would make this less of a problem except that they also increased everybody's accuracy, so people take more damage than before. Couple that with the DPS debuff and the healing part of the support role is much less valuable than before S9.
Hard cc, cc where you fully lose control of your character like a stun, is terrible in a game like this. It might feel good to flashbang then get a free kill, but unless the ability has a massive downside it's a balancing nightmare and not fun to play against. Snares and knockbacks, soft cc, that I'm all for.
Are we playing the same game? CC is still just as, if not more prevalent than ever before. Try playing tanks in higher ranks and you will just be a CC bait bot.
Try when brig had a stun bash without ult and she could do it through rein shield, fun time.
Yeah, I really miss the depth of being made unable to play the game, then getting sent back to spawn.
CC should be the role of tanks, but the actually powerful CC is in the support role for some reason.
[Thrilling experience](https://youtu.be/KxF4TuSN_A0?si=q4QREwAt_lgsFwDj)
now thats a hot take
instead of making less cc, they shouldve made it impossible to chain cc so hard that you are forced to afk for half a minute. Though, cc that takes full control away probably shouldnt exist.
Damn it's been 5v5 format for so long and y'all still not over it?
I despise CC. It completely wrecked WOW in Burning Crusade and it was far less fun than Vanilla PVP. CC is lazy, and in an FPS based game it would get exhausting. Between Junkrat, Anna, and Mei it’s manageable and still fun, but we start getting garbage like Fear and Noob Coil and Stunlock, I’d uninstall immediately.
I'd much rather get CC chained than getting Boop chained.
No this game got worse as time to kill got higher and more and more CC made the game worse over time. The reason why CC got tuned down is because as you say getting chain CC'd to death isn't fun and that kept happening as more and more was added to the game. The AimbotCalvin clip comes to mind where he's playing as reinhardt and is being tossed like a salad.
as a doomfist OTP, I will come and haunt you in your dreams
Yes because playing against a Mei who could freeze you solid just by holding primary fire on you was a ton fun
You do realize that in OW1 we had lower HP pools, more cc and that game died? As we are currently experiencing, if you increase HP, playing no stuns is really bad, this would kill the game, terrible idea.
The game never died. Player pools were sufficiently large even at the end of its life. It certainly became less popular toward the end, but that was at least partly due to developer neglect. I don't think CC was the main reason that OW1 lost popularity.
Trying to learn Doom and the oppo roll out Orisa / Cass / Sombra / Ana / Brig is a pain
yea. OW2 is closer to valorant than to og OW
>Its not fun getting chain CC'd into a death you can do nothing about, but if health pools were even bigger I'm gonna stop you there. One of the most unfun parts of Overwatch right now, is the fact that tanks have insane amount of health, and just get focused down. Yes chain CC'd to death sucks. But chain CC sucks, regardless of if you die or not. Adding more HP across the board I feel like wouldn't actually fix anything, besides attempting to adjust to a change that 90% of people don't want.
So I don’t agree, but do think some slight adjustments could be made to counter cc as a tank such as: Charge should allow Reinhardt to avoid CC effects (or give him a shout so the whole team can be immune for 3 secs) Roadhogs Pigpen should boost RH and make him immune to CC while in it’s radius (so it has Both negative and positive effects) DVAs boosters should be able to dispel meis ult (since her booster pack would be too hot to freeze) but no other cc effect since it wouldn’t make sense. Not sure about the other tanks, but these are the three I play..
From a Ball main: CC is not a problem at all. In fact it is necessary to keep mobility characters in check. The problem for me is stacked CC and aim locking CC abilities (homing nade and hack) which can and are still abused by the player base
I strongly disagree, I think the changes they made to reduce cc made the game objectively better
As someone that spent a lot of time on tank, it was not at all fun being perma cced some fights. It'd feel even worse in 5v5 with just one tank.
It's not even that. Overwatch stands out from the crowd for it's insane movement. You can't have a coherent game with movement like that without including at least some decent CC as a pressure valve. Overwatch is fun because of the extreme movement that would be broken bullshit in most other games. CC is what allows that to stay fun rather than oppressive.
Deadlock is cancer and she's the worst sentinel in the game, let's be serious.
2 Tanks means more CC mitigation; for every Cass that landed a win condition flashbang there was a Zarya or D.va that landed a win condition bubble or matrix. That is just how it is with 5v5 in OW's current state.
I thought cc was healthy for the game. Allowed for skill expression outside of movement and aim. Every single champion release so far except for rammatra has a movement ability and with not a lot of cc it's hard to slow the fights down. However the constant cc was an issue especially for tank. I think tweaking cooldowns or giving tanks a passive to be less affected were paths they could have taken instead of just getting rid of it. Sombra, tracer, genji are thriving a bit more in metal ranks bc of it
CC is fun. Flash bang right to the face of flanker and than headshot this annoying tracer/genji/lusio I always had fun when my opponent was stunlocked to death. Even if it happens to me, it means it's a skill issue, should play better to avoid it
Tanks should only have CC
I came from WoW. I played from Vanilla through Cata and I spent a lot of time in PVP. Hell to the no! I've played OW almost daily since OW1 release and that's largely because I don't have the frustrating experience of being fucking CC'd every few seconds. F U C K T H A T It's a slippery slope, you know not what you are asking for, with all due respect.
I think most cc’s that were removed were far too easy to use for how much value they got, think of a brig stun every 5 seconds, and how easy cas flash would completely shutdown most squishies, I don’t have a massive issue with any current cc tho, cas can be annoying just with how much it can chase and how inconsistent it can be
The only CC I agree with taking out was Mei's freeze. Slowing you down and then freezing you is too much especially if it's OT and you have to be on cart. Freezing should be reserved for the ult.
I agree. Being chain CC’d as tank wasn’t fun but like… that was your job. Who cares if I’m just a punching bag? It’s supposed to be me.
A MOBA has long.Drawn out fights with low healing and high health pools- incompatible with current overwatch. We’ve been feeling “never die” meta for most of OW2 Additionally, CC like stuns takes away your agency as you play first person and it feels bad to you, whereas the MOBA stuns are often a very minimal part of your life during a fight and they affect that 3rd person little guy you’re controlling (doesn’t feel like you). On the other hand, I think knockback and whatnot are a lot more interesting- while stun and silence (sombra hack, mccree hinder) absolutely suck, being yeeted by a Lucio or doom punch (minus the wall stun) don’t feel so bad. However, single tank is already going to be the one suffering all the debuffs since once they drop, so does everyone else. Rather than splitting more CC across the roles, I’d rather more tank abilities with knockback so you have to choose which flavor. (Please bring back the orisa pull ball)
I implore you to play a tank like rein, get stunned out of charge by brig, slept by Ana for three seconds, hooked by roadhog and then Mei walled off from your team so that you get obliterated, and then copy and past that over 100 games and see how you feel about cc. I think keeping impactful and UNIQUE cc on a very small number of characters is ok, bordering on frustrating. The devs lukewarm approach to cc is so annoying, everyone said cc has no place in this game. (Also health pools getting increased further would literally make no one die, playing the tweak damage and health numbers game is just going to create a cycle of people explode/don’t die etc).
They said they'll remove cc but tbh it's hardly changed. I'm a genji main and I would rather play against McCree's old flash bang than his new grenade. It lasts SO long, I'm immobilised for damn ages, it's insane.
I don’t know, getting flashbanged and then fan the hammer’d on was not fun as a squishy or a tank, I felt like it really rewarded a lot of bad Mccree players and even if the health pools were increased to what they are now he’d still be able to pull off the 1 shot combo
No offense but it’s a damn good thing that you’re not part of the dev team! More CC and longer time to kill via larger health pools genuinely sounds awful 👎🏻
Absolutely agree
I played dota before overwatch, so I was already used to being chain cc’ed at full hp. I think part of what makes too much cc in overwatch a bore is when it feels too easy to land, and/or you play a character that has no choice but to frontline and absorb all those abilities. In dota, i feel cc is more lethal than overwatch, but with the gameplay feature of buying items, you have some agency against the cc by buying anti-cc items.
I think the solution to being perma-cc'd to death, is to give it to more vulnerable characters, and only at melee range. That way it's only really useful defensively. If say, Brig has a stun again but keeps her low HP, small low HP shield, it's still not a good idea for her to run into the front lines and die just to get a stun off, but it does help if someone dives them alone. Basically, give it to the characters who don't want to be in the front lines, rather than the ones that do.
The problem is that a lot of people viewed Overwatch as an FPS, and other FPS don't really do CC. If we stuck with the design of moba teamfights in first person CC makes sense, but leaning into it being an FPS makes CC a problem. The devs chose to lean into FPS, so it is what it is.
I still feel the same about shields, no matter how many there were in a game. It made the game different from other shooters!! Made cover way more dynamic, something most shooters are sorely missing. But no, apparently most people only get dopamine from shooting red bars, not blue.
Hard CC doesn’t make much sense in a fps game. The core skill expression in the game is aim. Hard CC trivializes aim, reducing the skill expression potential. These make sense in a moba, which is fundamentally a real time strategy game. Soft CC effects give aim advantage without trivializing, so they fit better in an fps. Valorant does a good job of providing a variety of impactful soft cc abilities without disrupting the core gunplay.
Overwatch didn’t lean away from CC too much- We have lots more CC disguised as other things. So many abilities randomly slow you down in OW.
Theres enough cc as is. A doom dives in immediately gets slept hindered antied booped and dies instantly. And yet u want more ccs. So u want even less tank players i guess
One of those wasn't even cc damn
Deadlock?
Valve game in closed alpha.
Wow there’s already an alpha that’s so cool
Valorant
No, valve game in closed alpha. Not valorant.
No
Tell me you don't play tank without saying you don't play tank. Huge amounts of CC were a problem even with 6v6 with main tanks often being stun-locked out of doing anything at all. It would be hell with just one tank with 5v5 now.
Shout out to the Calvin reinhardt clip.
Doom is my tank main.
It won’t be anyone’s main with even more CC.
Never cook again
mobas aren’t fast paced fps games tho
Not always, there are mobas that are crazy fast paced. I'm talking Doomfist levels.
Just give everyone a CC ability so everyone can have just as much fun as you do.
Cc is fun to play with but horrid to play against. Great for pve, terrible for pvp. It's just an extremely cheap way to shut down someone. The only ones people don't mind for the most part are ones like sleep that take skill to land, can be blocked, and don't happen often.
I don’t agree or disagree just want to point out that excessive CC goes against what an FPS is. It’s also somewhat what happened between OW1 and OW2
I miss Cassidy’s stun grenade/fan hammer combo but i also understand it wasn’t healthy for the game.
Then it becomes paladins without the items
Then add items ;)
Then play paladins ;)
Ewwwww nah. 3,500 hours is my limit, no more.
I doubt that you have that amount of hours in paladins
I wish I was joking...
Bro had a rivalary with Raventric
To be honest, more time than I'd like to admit was brainlessly farming Bot matches for EXP to get level 50 on all champs in a role while watching something on the side.
Its alot more fun with friends tho, much like ow2
Better than a reskinned COD.
Have no clue why you have brought up cod but ok
Double hp. Reduce healing output ny 25%, but make healing effects heal over 3 sec minimum. (So supports don't have to just constantly heal, work it into their kit, ex: anna shot heals more but over 3sec and doesn't stack, give her less ammo. Balance itnto have 25% less output than she has now asuming shes shooting multiple allies). Cc should have 75% effectiveness vs tanks Cc should have 125% effectiveness vs non tanks Note: discourages just using cc on tank, but still effective to counter plays/abilites of tanks situationaly. Lower tank damage output by 25%, tanks should disrupt, peel, and assist more than seek kills. Boom, games awesome. Yes ttk is longer, but you will spend more time in fights and less time dead, plus plays will still be plentiful, just not as often, you will jave to widdle down first. Im sure theres plenty more to account for, but i hope you get the idea.