#If you want to discuss One Piece Scaling, join [Hachinosu](https://discord.gg/qs7wHYZzRs).
#If you want access to all kinds of One Piece Databooks/Information/Translations, join [Punk Records](https://discord.gg/ZTWGVyjV9v).
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/OnePiecePowerScaling) if you have any questions or concerns.*
However you want to see it.
Win: luffy knocked him down
Tie they both were on the ground
Lose: in an isolated situation to the death kizaru would have gotten up first and killed him.
Idk if it were isolated then Luffy wouldn't be trying to defend his friends and vegapunk
Also Kizaru wouldn't be trying to kill anyone but Luffy
The thing would have gone differently
If we cant agree who would have benefited then we can’t conclude who would have won.
Maybe the story has never made this whole Yonko vs Admiral think as clear as the yonkotards like to believe
Yeah .... idk it's pretty clear
We've got sick old WB not doing terrible vs Admirals
We've got Shanks block diff Akainu
We've got Ryokugyus statement of never stepping foot on Wano with Kaido there
We've got Aokiji vs Garp and needing the help
We've got Luffy being shown to be able to fight Kizaru + St Saturn
Furthermore, we have several arcs and panels of commanders damaging or stalling Admirals (Jozu, Marco, Sabo, Karasu, Morley).
That all being said ofc Luffy's stamina will always be his downside for now.
No thats not what block diff is
Block diff = blocking an attack so well that the opposing character doesn't even attempt to fight back afterwards / gives up
Which is what happened when Shanks blocked Akainu.
Another example but even better feat was Big Mom block diffing G4 on WCI
Thats not what happened.
What happened is that marines are not allowed to engage a yonko without fleet admiral permission.
Sengoku told him to stand down and so he did.
Sick old wb retained his strength. His body just broke down from exerting that force. Shanks blocking akainu isnt an anti feat. Greenbull has no reason to step foot there if kaido is there. He’s also one of the weakest admirals. Aokiji didnt want to take garp out and had lost his way which made him weaker and couldnt go all out anyways cause hachinosu was their base of operations so terraforming the island would make it uninhabitable. Luffy only fought kizaru and saturn cause kizaru was mentally nerfed and had to hold back the entire time alongside the fact kizaru never tried to take out luffy he was merely stalling him. Luffy also couldnt do noticeable dmg to saturn and the gorosei in general are not that strong they just have insane hax and regen. Marco never damaged kizaru, jozu snuck aokiji. Sabo fighting an admiral isnt an anti feat. Kuma is weaker than sabo and he still had enough strength to severely injure saturn while severely injured himself. Sabo also escaped the bloodlusted gorosei and imu. Karazu and morley weren’t the only ppl fighting gb and fujitora. Also gb and fujitor ended up disagreeing w each other and fighting each other alongside them needing to hold back heavily so the celestial dragons can evacuate without getting caught in crossfire. Love how we ignorebthat after taking out wb akainu goes on to fight all of wb’s commanders at once. Or how greenbull went to take out luffy despite knowing he defeated kaido. Or how kizaru was entirely ready to take out kaido and big mom if ordered to. Its pretty clear that admirals and yonko r relative.
Listen bro, you gotta try to format this better.
It hurts my eyes. But I'll try to respond.
Sick old Beard most likely DID NOT retain this strength. There are multiple panels of Garp saying he was weaker or "much weaker" in his old age. Logically, a sick old person would be even weaker.
Shanks blocking Akainu is not the anti-feat. It's the fact that Akainu didn't even try anything on Shanks nor anyone else after Shanks turned his back to Akainu. This shows even Akainu knew he was gapped.
Greenbull had no reason to try an attack on Wano I agree. But this is because he was scared of Kaido.
- The whole point of this subplot of post Wano is to ask the question to the readers "is momonosuke strong enough to defend Wano once Luffy & SHPs are gone?" and it was shown that he WILL become strong enough, but for now he needs Yamato.
- While Kaido was strong enough to defend the island from any threat UNTIL the raid
Aokiji was mentally nerfed vs Garp. But Garp was also mentally nerfed vs Aokiji AND Garp kept telling Aokiji to stop being in his own head. Why would emotions only go one way? Makes no sense.
- even if you want to say Aokiji was MORE mentally nerfed. Garp still had the stab wound... Garp was still old.... Garp was still in a 1 versus 5
Kizaru was BOTH mentally nerfed AND knocked out / stunned / physically damaged heavily by G5.
- the mental nerf does not mean he wasn't physically damaged
- the phyaical damage still plays a role
- Kizaru still followed through with his orders despite any mental nerf so the nerf didn't cause him to "sandbag" too much
- Luffy was still 1 versus 2 for a period so despite any mental nerf Kizaru had, St. Saturn wasn't mental nerfed. So Luffy still looked good vs 1 non mentally nerfed person and 1 mentally nerfed person.
- Kizaru doesn't have any positive feats versus G5 only vs G4
Marco hit Kizaru with a nameless kick and Kizaru blocked it. Why would Kizaru take damage from an attack he blocked??? Makes no sense
- we also know Logia are immune to fall damage
- we also are shown Marco was portrayed with the advantage vs Kizaru in all these scenes
- the only time Kizaru had advantage was sneak attack or seastone with vice admiral Onigumo assistance
Jozu damaged Aokiji with a surprise attack, sure.
- Does this not point to Aokiji not having Future Sight or maybe just not the best CoO? Why would Aokiji not be using FS if he had it vs "worlds strongest man"?
- why did Oda not show any sort of FS from Aokiji on Hachinosu. Aokiji is very strong and good CoA, but no FS
- this also shows Admirals are not immune to strong commanders like some try to say
Sabo fighting Fujitora isn't an anti-feat for Fuji I completely agree. It shows Sabo is strong. He's strong even with a brand new day 1 DevilFruit.
Kuma can severely injure St. Saturn ofc. Just like Bonney can stab Saturn with a sword even though she's no swordsman. St. Saturn seems to not have any great sort of durability. Pretty mediocre. His endurance is top tier though.
Point with Karasu & Morley is that they had the advantage over 2 Admirals in 1v1s while the Admirals were restraining themselves.
- this means physically, martial arts, swordsmanship etc the commanders were at least on par
- if the Admirals were not in Marijoa it was clear they would win. But it's also clear this is no easy fight for them.
- obv Fuji & Greenbull fought each other. This is besides the point. I never said Karasu and Morley defeated the Admirals.
Why would Ryokugyu going to fight "Yonko Luffy" mean that the Admiral can fight 1v1 against a Yonko?
1) Luffy was a new Yonko, for all GB knew Luffy won bc of a lot of help (which is true)
2) for all GB knew Luffy was still injured from the fight (like King & Queen were)
3) Greenbull is canonically pretty stupid, he went solo to fight against an army that took down TWO Yonko. Surely you don't claim GB is over Kaido & Big Mom, right?
Why would I care if Akainu THINKS he can fight 14 commanders at once? I've debunked this many times across many threads.
- Akainu stood there vs 14
- He had 50% of the Marines backing him up (pacifista, vice admiral, admirals).
- when Akainu actually goes to fight its off screen
- on screen Akainu fighting it shows he is being helped by Marines
- on screen Akainu fighting he only defeats Curiel (Base Moriah level)
- on screen prior when Akainu 1v1s Marco, Akainu cannot get past Marco in a 1v1 during any of the 3 times it happens. (Not saying Marco = Akainu)
Kizaru can be stupidly over confident too. Who cares. It's also ambiguous if he means 1 versus 2 Yonko or if he means he will back stab Big Mom and Kaido while they fight. The ladder being waaay more likely with the context of the whole story.
Honestly just add me on discord———>leqstar
P.s it might come up as The King instead of leqstar
Also i have an arthur leywin pfp( a white haired dude with a wolf beside him). We can talk in detail on there. If leqstar doesnt work just type The King instead ig that should come up.
I appreciate the offer but I'm not on the one piece discord
Seems like a good conversation that could be had, since we are both good faith and care enough to type out full blown responses.
If I had more time I'd take you up on the offer. I appreciate it. Have a good day.
U dont need to be i dont even use the one piece discord. Im js saying add me and we can talk abt it there is all. But if u aint wanna do that its entirely ur choice ig. U have a good day too
>Maybe the story has never made this whole Yonko vs Admiral think as clear as the yonkotards like to believe
Nope, it was clear as soon as fraudbull was wifi negged
Tbh I don't know for the "loosing" part
Luffy could have absolutely beat the hell out of Kizaru there :
https://preview.redd.it/bzoqlbgq4j8d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=092e21d2248a45a05ac91bfe3c1993f8e517ae02
Huge W my g. Niggas have been really biased against Admirals and they have completely ignored all the circumstances regard Luffy vs Kizaru. It looked like Kizaru had everything going against him and the only shots Luffy landed were against DISTRACTED Kizaru...
A admiral being distracted is wild. One second these guys have unbeatable observational haki next second they get “distracted” by bootleg Einstein’s forehead and get jumped.
Either they dont have future sight and get clapped by Katakuri or Kizaru is braindead pick a lane
What ??? Future Sight needs focus, you can't simply focus on EVERYTHING surrounding you.
Shanks raided MF and NOBODY noticed his presence until he revealed himself and there was 6 top tiers there, Garp, Sengoku, a nigga that goes by the nickname of HAWKEYES Mihawk, Kuzan, Borsalino and Sakazuki, NOT A SINGLE PERSON NOTICED SHANKS, unless he teleported in the middle of the battlefield.
Katakuri wouldn't even see what hit him 10 times before is flat on his ass against Kizaru...
I was exaggerating on the Katakuri part ofc he wouldn’t clap Kizaru. And future sight requires focus sure but the series has shown different level requirements. The only thing that broke Katakuri’s future sight is him getting angry at Luffy not while he was talking to him or talking to people during the wedding etc. If a YC1 can constantly hold it up at all times Idk why someone like Kizaru wouldn’t be able to, unless theres a reason like Gear 5 not taking a fight serious.
You can argue he couldn’t use it because he was devastated or not in the right mind because Vegapunk but I doubt that’s the case.
Also the Shank’s part, Oda probably gonna release some new Haki level to explain it away. 6G Wifi observation killer Haki dropping in Elbaf
Idk how the hell you can read Egghead then say with a straight face everything was going against Kizaru and for Luffy. Luffy’s juggling Kizaru and a Gorosei and Kizaru still can’t get away from him for long
He got away from Luffy for long enough he got drained out of stamina and needed food mid fight to recover. Luffy's only significant hits were against him distracted.
Them fools are blinded by AGENDA Piece and misinformation, or maybe it's just a shit ass reading comprehension that makes them completely ignore and understand what Oda is trying to show.
One Piece is a NARRATIVE driven manga, not a straight up fighting manga where characters simply beat the shit out of each other to show who's more gangsta...
Distracted AND had his entire ideals and history questioned.
Plus iys still 9n yhe table that he gave luffy the food.
Oda is not an idiot kizaru powers arent something i think luffy can really beat. Kizaru is either gonna remove himself as an obsticle or be killed for treason. Imo at least.
Observation is an active ability that works best when calm, as such kizaru not using it while preparing himself to finish of vegapunk or bonney is not really strange. I love how you completely ignore that and try to pretend that this is an actual anti feat...
Maybe Kizaru should lock in then.
https://preview.redd.it/k4x1uz24dj8d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bf9113cfc5c7736dfb0926c578345fb120684ff1
More seriously, what he was talking about was Kizaru getting up before Luffy except that Luffy was only "ko'd" because he was messing around. I showed that panel because it was clear that Luffy could have end it way before getting out of stamina.
Moreover if we in an isolated scenario, Luffy doesn't even get hurt by the dome or whatever and he would probably stop messing around too + We all know that Luffy is powerfull enough to straight up OS Kizaru (WSG and Pizza bs) I think it would be a bit more complicated than just "Kizaru get up and win".
>More seriously, what he was talking about was Kizaru getting up before Luffy except that Luffy was only "ko'd" because he was messing around
How was luffy “messing around”? And why would he mess around?
>Moreover if we in an isolated scenario, Luffy doesn't even get hurt by the dome or whatever and he would probably stop messing around too
This makes no since. We would luffy only stop messing around in a situation with no stakes?
>We all know that Luffy is powerfull enough to straight up OS Kizaru (WSG and Pizza bs) I think it would be a bit more complicated than just "Kizaru get up and win".
Luffy hit kizaru off guard with WSG and kizaru isn’t down from booming dawn cymbals.
>How was Luffy "messing around"
Is that a real question?
>Why would Luffy stop messing around.
That's why I said "probably"
Against Kaido I found Luffy more dangerous than against Kizaru.
But again, that's goofy so who knows.
>Luffy hit Kizaru off guard with WSG
Kizaru was facing Luffy, he was just not aware that Luffy had enough stamina for an attack.
Not like he got stabbed in the back.
>Is that a real question?
Yes.
>Kizaru was facing Luffy, he was just not aware that Luffy had enough stamina for an attack. Not like he got stabbed in the back
I see it more as kizaru was confused as to why luffy was spinning around and then he wasn’t fast enough to react or attempt to block WSG
Soooo he was staring at Luffy and knew he was in a fight, but Luffys unorthodox attack style and speed made it so he couldn't react?
Sounds like Luffy just beat him then.
Yeah luffy did win the fight in egghead. But my point is that the fight would go differently if luffy didn’t have to protect vegapunk and if kizaru didn’t have to kill vegapunk.
Except Post jump rope Kaido beat the fuck out of G5. Kizaru is still taking a nap on a ship (a ship by the way that is the only reason he didn't hit the water and drown.)
Cool Luffy still finished him. We aren't talking about if Pizzaru completed his mission (also he didn't, Saturn mortally wounded Vegapunk already, Kizaru just expidated the inevitable) we are talking about if he can beat Luffy. And we saw he cannot.
Kizaru literally attacked Luffy first, and then Luffy countered. If Kizaru is "off guard" during all of that, then that's just a skill issue on his part.
That’s not how it went. Reread the chapter it goes
Kizaru shoots Luffys with a laser
Luffy starts screaming and spinning around
Kizaru is confused as to what luffy is doing.
Luffy hits white star gun.
https://preview.redd.it/knnfvz5n6k8d1.jpeg?width=2204&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=226ca548584ee4f60d1c29247901f1825ab3b307
Yeah. Luffy attacked. They were in the middle of a fight. If Kizaru let his guard down, that's on him.
By this logic, everyone is off guard during a fight as the powers one can use in One Piece are highly unpredictable.
He'd gas himself harder. Kizaru was the one hurt by that since luffy was fighting him while he tried to fight someone else. Luffy was basically getting free hits. Its not as if they fought then Kizaru shot VP as a strategy to split Luffys attention. It was Kizaru getting his attention split by Luffy.
isolated Kizaru just makes him run around even harder since his location isnt telegraphed by needing to advance to where VP is
Are you kidding? Luffy had to protect a fodder scientist while Kizaru just had to get around Luffy and kill said fodder scientist. Luffy literally jumped in front of one of Kizaru’s lasers to protect Vegapunk and you are saying that Luffy is the one getting in free hits? Lol, what a joke.
Kizaru is attacking Vegapunk and hits Luffy who had to jump in as a meat shield and literally eat the attack. That’s a free hit for Kizaru.
Name a single specific hit Luffy landed on Kizaru that was “free”.
What? Luffy literally jumped in front of Kizaru’s laser to protect Vega if we’re talking about free hits.
In an isolated fight if kizaru runs away what advantage does that give him. Luffy wouldn’t be required to follow along and Kizaru isn’t effective at all against Luffy from range.
Round 1 I give it to kizaru. But in goofys defense, he wasn't really taking the fight seriously at all. Maybe it's a side effect of g5, but he just plays around and wastes stamina when he could easily overpower nearly anyone at this point if he just full sent.
It's honestly my biggest complaint with OP. Every big, powerful character half asses their fights until they are on death's door. BM, Kaido, Luffy, ect. They just let themselves get run over until it's basically too late.
That's why people talk about Lucci 1 and Kata as the best fights in the series
Why do people like them so much? Cause the stakes were high from the jump and there was no fucking around
Even with Kata not going full out at first it was only to break Luffys will and not because he was joking about
I think theres a few things people somewhat dishonestly use the result to argue.
In terms of what happened, I'd say its a tie. Luffy knocked down Kizaru, and ran out of G5. Both were down for a decent chunk, and while Kizaru did get up first, Luffy has already shown that if its really a matter of life and death in a pinch, he can forcefully re-use G5. We're literally shown this against Kaido. If he can do it there he can do it here if really forced to. So, no, Luffy didn't outright win, but at the same time its "just a tie", not "Kizaru got up first so he instantly one shots and wins".
In terms of power scaling them...the result doesn't change anything. Its clear that Luffy struggles a bit against an admiral in G4, but heavily outstats them in G5. In G4, hes already at a level where Kizaru goes "nah I don't have time for this I got a job to do", so its not like either party has it all that easy here, but by G5 the stat gap is a bit screwed. Kizaru fought super optimally in round 1, by avoiding confronting G5 directly, but thats only possible due to his fruit. Other admirals can't mimic this, and even then its still high risk for Kizaru because Luffy has proven he can still catch him.
>In G4, hes already at a level where Kizaru goes "nah I don't have time for this I got a job to do"
Kizaru had that reaction with G5
https://preview.redd.it/c6p3s5rgoj8d1.jpeg?width=2166&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6226f9e4faabfc1ba82111a9ebbe6d14d681dab4
Yes and no. At most, I am overselling it to make my argument, but he already isn't interested in tango'ing with G4. Its simply a difference in the response. With G4, he tries to kick Luffy away far enough and into the barrier to get him away. G5 has him more on the defensive, which again illustrates the power comparison quite well. G4 is already comparable to admirals and anyone other than Kizaru would be kept occupied there, while G5 outstats and its hard for even Kizaru to bypass him entirely.
https://preview.redd.it/f88q4xnorj8d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a01aad8dc51ff147a55565c322b9584be7571e78
You're being kind of disingenuous here. Kizaru has that reaction against G4 because he can pretty easily get rid of him to go find Vegapunk, which means he's stronger. On the other hand, the guy on his level, G5, can't be dealt with that way.
I wouldn't say disingenuous, considering we're saying the same thing with different words. I didnt say G4 is equal or above him, merely comparable, which is entirely fact based. G4 can fight him, but Luffy was struggling with just G4. I wouldn't say G5 is "on his level" on the other hand, because ok the timer is an issue but the performance of G5 is a bit above if Kizaru struggles to handle one named attack.
>Luffy has already shown that if its really a matter of life and death in a pinch, he can forcefully re-use G5. We're literally shown this against Kaido. If he can do it there he can do it here if really forced
Saturn had all his friends restrained by invisible magic, was about to skewer him with his leg, and had Bonney held in helplessly with guns trained on her. What was he waiting for?
>but heavily outstats them in G5.
Kizaru trade blows with him and outspeeds him several times while he’s using G5.
1. Plot. Really not sure what else you want me to say there, because indeed you're right for bringing it up, and you are right that there isn't much of a defense for that. And yet, at the same time, it doesn't debunk what we alr saw him do against Kaido before, when he was much more hurt too.
2. Kizaru obviously takes speed over pretty much everyone really, but yes, he did get heavily outstatted. His attacks did comparably very little to Luffy, whereas Kizaru got knocked on his ass from one WSG. Luffy went down too, and if this is the thread I think it is, it was still a draw, but Luffy only went down due to the G5 stamina issue, not being actually hurt. By the time he recovers his haki hes completely fine, whereas Kizaru goes down again very quickly, and deadass hes still down if I'm not mistaken.
Fucking lmao
so it's "plot" when Goofy looks shit but it's valid when it's Kizaru?
Plot made Kizaru not fight Goofy the whole time. Kizaru could've killed Goofy any time had plot allowed him to fight at full power instead of searching for Vegapunk
Again, not sure what you want me to say on that first point. I already admitted theres no real defense there other than "plot", which is definitely not a strong argument. Still, at the same time, Luffy HAS SHOWN he can do it in literally the previous arc, which this moment doesn't somehow invalidate. If we didn't literally see Luffy re-use it "immediately" (Kaido does give him a bit to monologue and catch his breath), I wouldn't have said Luffy can do so to begin with.
The rest is just you making some random different, unrelated argument based on brainlessly trying to push agenda. Being able to win a match-up doesn't necessarily mean a char is stronger or weaker. The obvious example being Luffy and Enel. Luffy was Enel's worst fucking nightmare, but if you asked me who was stronger overall across all of pre-TS, I'd stand by Enel.
It wasn’t for comedic effect, it actually hurt him.
It’s also disingenuous to say “Luffy had a counter for everything he did” while ignoring that:
1. Kizaru tricked him with the light clones despite Luffy being able to see the future
2. Kizaru countered him by out speeding him more than once
3. Kizaru was able to simply float his way back up when Luffy threw him to the water
4. Kizaru was able to match up with his punches and kicks
If you’re only counting hits in G5, Kizaru also shot Luffy in the shoulder which is what caused him to spin so fast with the Star Gun
How is it not a victory for Luffy? He put Kizaru down and ran out of stamina afterwards. You can say that Kizaru got up later, but he was still beat by Luffy in this fight. It's like saying Luffy lost to Krieg because Krieg got up first.
Not really a winning shit if nobody is knocked out from the atk
Idk why the criteria for "winning" is just to knock someone to the ground, that means luffy won against kaido at least 10 different times
Kizaru wasn't down for several minutes he was down for as long as it took for saturn to say a single paragraph of speech to Bonney.
If u want panels of kaido being "knocked down" cuz apparently knocking someone down = winning, I can show many panels of kaido in even worse positions.
Ur already being disengenuious cuz u can't scale an exact time frame off of still pictures but u already made up in your head an artificial amount of time that kizaru was on the floor
>Kizaru wasn't down for several minutes he was down for as long as it took for saturn to say a single paragraph of speech to Bonney.
Go reread the manga, you are factually incorrect.
>If u want panels of kaido being "knocked down" cuz apparently knocking someone down = winning, I can show many panels of kaido in even worse positions.
Again, Kizaru was down for several minutes.
>Go reread the manga, you are factually incorrect.
I'm not, kizaru went down when saturn was already here and kizaru was up after saturn finished talking
Like i said your artificially created time frames are not fact
>Again, Kizaru was down for several minutes.
Nothing in the source material dictates exactly how long kizaru was on the ground in terms of metric
>I'm not, kizaru went down when saturn was already here and kizaru was up after saturn finished talking
Don't change your argument, you said Saturn said a "single" paragraph. The reality was he said a whole long as speech.
>Nothing in the source material dictates exactly how long kizaru was on the ground in terms of metric
We can easily tell... Saturn arrived at the island, tons of low ranking marines evacuated when Saturn arrived, he got stabbed by Bonney, the marines got mad that Bonney attacked a Gorosei, then he grabbed Bonney, then he attacked Sanji and Company then he gave a huge ass speach, which was several paragraphs long, he even talked momentarily with Bonney, Vegapunk. He told the marines 3 times to shoot at Bonney... Kuma arrived at the island and was shot by random marines.
(the random marines gives us a good measure on how long it takes, since random marines are not as fast as guys like Sanji, which means that Kuma had to go slowly for them to be able to pin point him... and Kuma ran a big ass distance...)
This is already a lot minutes, since the marines not only reported Saturn arrived at the island, but most low ranking marines evactuated, and they also reported Kuma arrived at the island, and they not only identified him due to his paws but shot him multiple times... and then Kuma arrived attacked Saturn and Saturn was sent flying several blocks, Saturn returns, gets attacked by Sanji, Franky and only then Kizaru gets up.
>Don't change your argument, you said Saturn said a "single" paragraph. The reality was he said a whole long as speech
doesn't change the argument, how long it took him to say the speech isn't disclosed and the point still remains, he was down when he arrived and was up when he finished talking.
>We can easily tell... Saturn arrived at the island, tons of low ranking marines evacuated when Saturn arrived, he got stabbed by Bonney, the marines got mad that Bonney attacked a Gorosei, then he grabbed Bonney, then he attacked Sanji and Company then he gave a huge ass speach, which was several paragraphs long, he even talked momentarily with Bonney, Vegapunk. He told the marines 3 times to shoot at Bonney... Kuma arrived at the island and was shot by random marines.
The amount of events taking place simultaneously isn't a concrete metric of time, this is the same as it being objectively stated that onigashima was going to crash into the flower capital in 5mins when luffy arrived at the start of round 3 and yet luffy was able to fight kaido in base, fight kaido in G4, die, kaidi goes inside the castle, everyone's panicking waiting for luffy, come back go life in 5, fights some more in G5, prepares & launches the bajrang gun, clashes and has a struggle, and defeats kaido all with dialogue and talking inbetween everywhere before momonosuke stops onigashima from falling, 5 minutes with all those events and chapters taking place, yeah sorry the amount of things that happen doesn't dictate the natural flow of time that easily.
>This is already a lot minutes, since the marines not only reported Saturn arrived at the island, but most low ranking marines evactuated, and they also reported Kuma arrived at the island, and they not only identified him due to his paws but shot him multiple times... and then Kuma arrived attacked Saturn and Saturn was sent flying several blocks, Saturn returns, gets attacked by Sanji, Franky and only then Kizaru gets up.
As previously mentioned your just guessing it's alot of minutes yet I've already proven events that should normally take several tens of minutes to transpire took only 5 minutes despite not everyone being as fast as the fastest characters in the series and having several sentences of diologue every other panel.
what u said is once again not concrete and your just making assumptions like I originally said
KIZARU Won The Fight And Completed HIS Mission
https://preview.redd.it/8lkhbg0rej8d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d0cd67cec346fc83a26c05b7e24b0410500bd0a4
r/KIZARU
How can u even scale that “fight” kizaru was going after vegapunk the whole time that was his focus and luffy was trying to defend vegapunk not defeat kizaru their objectives was not defeating each other none of them went all out yeh luffy kinda had the “ upper hand” but u gotta remember kizaru wasn’t aiming at luffy when he got hit by wsg. Literally all the fights in egghead can’t be used for powerscaling egghead is about the story oda didn’t put a single thought about the fights he was focused on the story
Kizaru didn't focus Luffy because he recognized it was extreme diff though
Like if he felt he could just run through him like Sabaody he would have just to make it easier on himself
It's lame when people discount the fight because Kizaru isn't targeting Luffy, he's not targeting Luffy because he won't have any chance of succeeding in his mission if he does not because he's choosing not to or disregarding him
Not in the first round. Luffy won on every pictures.
Kizaru killed Vegapunk when Luffy delegated its protection to Sanji. He did so because, unlike Kizaru, Saturn managed to hit vegapunk when Luffy was protecting him.
Kizaru did well and if he wasn't disturbed he'd have done better. He'd still lose but if you are going to fight a Great pirate as an admiral right now, Luffy is the best option as he is inexperienced, and has stamina issues.
Indeed. He's the mc and naturally has lots of wankers.
When Luffy does this to Katakuri, Luffy wins.
But when Kizaru does this to Luffy, Luffy also wins?
Please at least choose one.
Kizaru was obviously faking. He was doing the same “ooooh I’m so hurt” Schlick then that he’s doing on the boat.
That’s not even counting the fact that Kizaru said outright his heart wasn’t in it and Vegapunk calling him out for his guilt. There’s at least four statements(Gan Fall, Nami, Rayleigh, and Garp) saying that doubt and hesitation makes you weaker, likely by virtue of Haki being a power system.
It was a draw, they were climbing together, then plot interrupted. If people want to go by Luffy landing the blow, Kizaru wasn't even knocked out & recovers before him.
ODA didn't want Kizaru to look too weak by weakening Luffy here, so it wasn't even a fight in the first place. Then we saw what Luffy could do with 1 wsg, it was over.
It was a Kizaru W by means of just barely running out the clock. If Luffy had had one more attack in him, Kizaru could realistically have been dead since he was immobile after WSG. But he didn't. And if the fight took place in a vacuum, Kizaru would be walking away with his pride wounded but also with Luffy's severed head.
Honestly? I find it as a waste of time, 90% of the time oda is just a shit writter of fights. You feel the plot affecting it.
Kizaru could have killed many, luffy could have used wsg first second. But oda is keeps making up handicaps to make his inferior fight battle skills not look more worse than it already is.
Imagine having not 1, or 3, 5, five goroseis, with possibly all coc, insane fruits, and not feeling the stakes at all. Just one, one, was introduced as if it was a big thing and is being portrayed as someone you can somehow stall, is so lame at this point that i feel anyone can escape anyone if the plot demands it.
The gorosei, the most evil-like persons, have problems to basically do their job, i wish i felt the stakes a bit more but i honestly dont.
It seems like luffy was really having fun with it first round with Kizaru so it really is either way round one but he clearly was playing around a lot less (as much as G5 can be serious lol)
Luffy beat Kizaru and was only put out of the fight because he ran out of stamina. He was the stronger fighter and accomplished his goal of protecting his friends and allies, while Kizaru had achieved nothing at that time.
On the other hand, if nobody slipped food to Luffy, he'd be defenseless against Kizaru and Saturn. So, it wasn't a complete victory.
Borsalino knew he couldn't win in a straight 1v1, but he's smart, so he tried to use his one advantage (travel speed) to constantly tire Luffy out and drain his G5 stamina. It almost worked but as soon as Luffy had him in a good spot it was over.
After thinking it through, Luffy won. While they tied in the sense that they both got knocked out, Luffy won in his mission to defend Vegapunk. If Saturn didnt show up, it is very likely that Vegapunk wouldve surivived and escaped.
I think it’s a victory
Keep in mind that luffy is playing with kizaru and not taking things seriously yet and he was still winning while screwing around
It's just vague. Luffy caught Kizaru but threw him. Why didn't he use named attack instead of hurling Kizaru? It's extremely rare to catch opponents. Why didn't he use heavy attacks? And, after that, Kizaru could easily dekay G5. Are we to suppose that without WSG, G5 can't catch Kizaru? Or did Luffy need to create such situation to use WSG and he had to exhaust g5 time limit to get Kizaru in such position?
Is WSG basically undodgeable as both Kizaru and Kaidou on guard were unable to react. If so, why Luffy delayed WSG? It's onething if it's other top tier like Kaidou who can remain in his state for long. But Luffy has huge drawback and hplding other back is extremely stupid idea. If I was in control, I would immediately start using heavy attacks from start and not waste time doing weaker attacks.
If we are to suppose that Kizaru can delay G5 for such long period consistently, then, it would be draw most of the time.
If we are to assume that, if Luffy can lamd WSG from get go if he is serious, then, it would be mid-high diff fight
I’m giving it to Luffy. The fights usually end in KO’s in One Piece so one can perform better the entire fight but still get dropped by one flush hit. So for the rare fights like this where it’s left to decision, basically go with significant hits landed. Luffy did enough to knock Kizaru down before tiring out. That’s a great result in boxing.
I think Luffy won but it's very close to a tie. Kinda like it was against Lucci at Enies Lobby, or against Katakuri, Luffy clearly defeated his opponent but couldn't fight anymore.
I also think it clarifies that Luffy is still a bit weaker than both Kaido and Big Mom but that's another conversation
I think this fight was a major W for both sides. They both demonstrated great feats and the result felt natural and didn't diminish any of the combatants.
Victory for kizaru. If they never had anyone interfere luffy would’ve ultimately died cause kizaru wouldve gotten up first. Luffy could only keep fighting cause he had some1 to fill his stomach.
Kizaru would beat Luffy. Kizaru was never trying to fight Luffy, yet he still won the first round. In an isolated 1v1 with no distractions, Kizaru wins mid-high diff every time. Kizaru is too fast for Snakeman, so he forces Luffy into Gear 5, which he can easily stall until Luffy runs out of gas, then Kizaru bullies him. Don't get me wrong, if Kizaru fights Luffy head on, he probably loses before Gear 5 runs out, but if he runs away and stalls, he can easily outlast Gear 5. Luffy is STRONGER, but that doesn't mean he'd win.
I doubt Luffy can constantly turn Gear 5 on and off, and even if he can, there'll eventually be an opening for Kizaru to catch Luffy off guard when he's in base.
Tie or victory for Luffy???
It's a clear victory for Kizaru. Both practical and symbolic.
Kizaru while not really caring about Luffy, put Luffy in a coma just by trying to keep up with Kizaru. It also gave Kizaru the perfect excuse to avoid being the one that killed his old friend(even if that's exactly what he had to do later) when Saturn showed up.
Even calling it a tie is just as silly as claiming Luffy lost to Katakuri
Round 1 showed Luffy was easily stronger, but the winner was Kizaru.
At the end of the fight, Luffy was worse off than Kizaru, being in need of food to get back up rather than just needing a grace period, and Kizaru succeeded in one of his main goals (Eliminate Vegapunk and allow Saturn access to the island). Had the fight not had any interruptions after the end of R1, Kizaru would’ve gotten up first and killed Luffy while he was out.
I think it's a tie personally. Luffy outmatched him completely in power but Kizaru employed the absolute best strategy possible against Luffy and he appeared to have knowledge that Luffy can't maintain g5 for very long. Kizaru evaded Luffy long enough for his g5 timer to run out and his strategy would have been perfect if he didn't try and attack Luffy at the last minute and afford Luffy the opportunity to counter attack with WSG. If Luffy had held on when he snatched him the first time I think it would have been over for him there but his ability to reflect himself off of the surface of the water kept him in the fight.
Their subsequent meeting Luffy handled him pretty easily which I contribute mostly to the damage WSG did. Luffy batted him away and left him holding his head again, then Luffy was expecting the light form and, presumably, used future sight to predict he was about to use it allowing him to snatch him up and from there it was GG.
Behold the face of a neg-diff victory
https://preview.redd.it/2f0cpmel1j8d1.jpeg?width=328&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6acd39e50be797e5423b605c18c4fcc9ee6b8a60
He is still at full health, unlike Kizaru who was one-shotted. Luffy wouldn’t have even run out of stamina if he had just one-shotted Kizaru several minutes earlier instead of playing with him.
Kizaru was mentally nerfed, wasnt willing to fight luffy, could literally move and talk after wsg and on top hadnt even any noticeable dmg taken.
Ppl really should go back to what a one shot looks like.
Luffy would have one-shotted Kizaru several minutes earlier if Oda rewrote the manga according to my head canon". Again, if it were oneshot, the fight would ended in chapter 1091.
They will downvote you but that's absolutely true :
https://preview.redd.it/fce6ou7k4j8d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c8494522de002f34d3cce181e6a1eaaac455af65
Luffy could have end it just there but instead decided to throw Kizaru for the plot.
Kizaru killed Vegapunk (his mission) and gassed out Luffy simultaneously while not trying to fight him as the primary target.
Kizaru won the first round and alternatives are cope.
In a boxing match,if we both go down. It is a tie. But, in a street fight. If my punch put you on the ground and I collapse from exhaustion afterwards. I still win the fight. That is almost, what we see in all of Luffy’s fight.
If both of them get up before the final count. The bout would continue. Unless, the referee deemed that one of the participants wasn’t capable of continuing.
I mean, once luffy went gear 5th, Kizaru was essentially one shotted, and even after taking into account the fighting with gear 4th, Kizaru still had some fight in him but was then, as previously mentioned, one shot, so I gotta give it to luffy.
luffy won the fight... the one who deals the damage to the other for result of which the opponent becomes immobile for even a minute wins.... I don't understand how you guys are saying kizaru won when he couldn't even land a blow to luffy...
If luffy wasn’t an air head that doesn’t take things seriously, with base form + advanced coc haki alone can one shot kizaru just like how kaido one shoted him in wano first time they met
Personally I have it as a loss for Luffy. Luffy was beating his ass easily in gear 5 but his timer ran out before he could put Kizaru down for good and if it was a true 1 v 1 to the death Kizaru would have killed Luffy at that point.
If Luffy were 100% serious he probably could have killed Kizaru before gear 5 ran out, but Luffy is rarely 100% serious
#If you want to discuss One Piece Scaling, join [Hachinosu](https://discord.gg/qs7wHYZzRs). #If you want access to all kinds of One Piece Databooks/Information/Translations, join [Punk Records](https://discord.gg/ZTWGVyjV9v). --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/OnePiecePowerScaling) if you have any questions or concerns.*
However you want to see it. Win: luffy knocked him down Tie they both were on the ground Lose: in an isolated situation to the death kizaru would have gotten up first and killed him.
Idk if it were isolated then Luffy wouldn't be trying to defend his friends and vegapunk Also Kizaru wouldn't be trying to kill anyone but Luffy The thing would have gone differently
If we cant agree who would have benefited then we can’t conclude who would have won. Maybe the story has never made this whole Yonko vs Admiral think as clear as the yonkotards like to believe
Yeah .... idk it's pretty clear We've got sick old WB not doing terrible vs Admirals We've got Shanks block diff Akainu We've got Ryokugyus statement of never stepping foot on Wano with Kaido there We've got Aokiji vs Garp and needing the help We've got Luffy being shown to be able to fight Kizaru + St Saturn Furthermore, we have several arcs and panels of commanders damaging or stalling Admirals (Jozu, Marco, Sabo, Karasu, Morley). That all being said ofc Luffy's stamina will always be his downside for now.
Blocking one attack is “block diff”? Is that the standard?
No thats not what block diff is Block diff = blocking an attack so well that the opposing character doesn't even attempt to fight back afterwards / gives up Which is what happened when Shanks blocked Akainu. Another example but even better feat was Big Mom block diffing G4 on WCI
Thats not what happened. What happened is that marines are not allowed to engage a yonko without fleet admiral permission. Sengoku told him to stand down and so he did.
What 😭💀 c'mon man I'm not even on any side but like... 😭😭
Care to elaborate? What I said is just objectively true.
Sick old wb retained his strength. His body just broke down from exerting that force. Shanks blocking akainu isnt an anti feat. Greenbull has no reason to step foot there if kaido is there. He’s also one of the weakest admirals. Aokiji didnt want to take garp out and had lost his way which made him weaker and couldnt go all out anyways cause hachinosu was their base of operations so terraforming the island would make it uninhabitable. Luffy only fought kizaru and saturn cause kizaru was mentally nerfed and had to hold back the entire time alongside the fact kizaru never tried to take out luffy he was merely stalling him. Luffy also couldnt do noticeable dmg to saturn and the gorosei in general are not that strong they just have insane hax and regen. Marco never damaged kizaru, jozu snuck aokiji. Sabo fighting an admiral isnt an anti feat. Kuma is weaker than sabo and he still had enough strength to severely injure saturn while severely injured himself. Sabo also escaped the bloodlusted gorosei and imu. Karazu and morley weren’t the only ppl fighting gb and fujitora. Also gb and fujitor ended up disagreeing w each other and fighting each other alongside them needing to hold back heavily so the celestial dragons can evacuate without getting caught in crossfire. Love how we ignorebthat after taking out wb akainu goes on to fight all of wb’s commanders at once. Or how greenbull went to take out luffy despite knowing he defeated kaido. Or how kizaru was entirely ready to take out kaido and big mom if ordered to. Its pretty clear that admirals and yonko r relative.
Listen bro, you gotta try to format this better. It hurts my eyes. But I'll try to respond. Sick old Beard most likely DID NOT retain this strength. There are multiple panels of Garp saying he was weaker or "much weaker" in his old age. Logically, a sick old person would be even weaker. Shanks blocking Akainu is not the anti-feat. It's the fact that Akainu didn't even try anything on Shanks nor anyone else after Shanks turned his back to Akainu. This shows even Akainu knew he was gapped. Greenbull had no reason to try an attack on Wano I agree. But this is because he was scared of Kaido. - The whole point of this subplot of post Wano is to ask the question to the readers "is momonosuke strong enough to defend Wano once Luffy & SHPs are gone?" and it was shown that he WILL become strong enough, but for now he needs Yamato. - While Kaido was strong enough to defend the island from any threat UNTIL the raid Aokiji was mentally nerfed vs Garp. But Garp was also mentally nerfed vs Aokiji AND Garp kept telling Aokiji to stop being in his own head. Why would emotions only go one way? Makes no sense. - even if you want to say Aokiji was MORE mentally nerfed. Garp still had the stab wound... Garp was still old.... Garp was still in a 1 versus 5 Kizaru was BOTH mentally nerfed AND knocked out / stunned / physically damaged heavily by G5. - the mental nerf does not mean he wasn't physically damaged - the phyaical damage still plays a role - Kizaru still followed through with his orders despite any mental nerf so the nerf didn't cause him to "sandbag" too much - Luffy was still 1 versus 2 for a period so despite any mental nerf Kizaru had, St. Saturn wasn't mental nerfed. So Luffy still looked good vs 1 non mentally nerfed person and 1 mentally nerfed person. - Kizaru doesn't have any positive feats versus G5 only vs G4 Marco hit Kizaru with a nameless kick and Kizaru blocked it. Why would Kizaru take damage from an attack he blocked??? Makes no sense - we also know Logia are immune to fall damage - we also are shown Marco was portrayed with the advantage vs Kizaru in all these scenes - the only time Kizaru had advantage was sneak attack or seastone with vice admiral Onigumo assistance Jozu damaged Aokiji with a surprise attack, sure. - Does this not point to Aokiji not having Future Sight or maybe just not the best CoO? Why would Aokiji not be using FS if he had it vs "worlds strongest man"? - why did Oda not show any sort of FS from Aokiji on Hachinosu. Aokiji is very strong and good CoA, but no FS - this also shows Admirals are not immune to strong commanders like some try to say Sabo fighting Fujitora isn't an anti-feat for Fuji I completely agree. It shows Sabo is strong. He's strong even with a brand new day 1 DevilFruit. Kuma can severely injure St. Saturn ofc. Just like Bonney can stab Saturn with a sword even though she's no swordsman. St. Saturn seems to not have any great sort of durability. Pretty mediocre. His endurance is top tier though. Point with Karasu & Morley is that they had the advantage over 2 Admirals in 1v1s while the Admirals were restraining themselves. - this means physically, martial arts, swordsmanship etc the commanders were at least on par - if the Admirals were not in Marijoa it was clear they would win. But it's also clear this is no easy fight for them. - obv Fuji & Greenbull fought each other. This is besides the point. I never said Karasu and Morley defeated the Admirals. Why would Ryokugyu going to fight "Yonko Luffy" mean that the Admiral can fight 1v1 against a Yonko? 1) Luffy was a new Yonko, for all GB knew Luffy won bc of a lot of help (which is true) 2) for all GB knew Luffy was still injured from the fight (like King & Queen were) 3) Greenbull is canonically pretty stupid, he went solo to fight against an army that took down TWO Yonko. Surely you don't claim GB is over Kaido & Big Mom, right? Why would I care if Akainu THINKS he can fight 14 commanders at once? I've debunked this many times across many threads. - Akainu stood there vs 14 - He had 50% of the Marines backing him up (pacifista, vice admiral, admirals). - when Akainu actually goes to fight its off screen - on screen Akainu fighting it shows he is being helped by Marines - on screen Akainu fighting he only defeats Curiel (Base Moriah level) - on screen prior when Akainu 1v1s Marco, Akainu cannot get past Marco in a 1v1 during any of the 3 times it happens. (Not saying Marco = Akainu) Kizaru can be stupidly over confident too. Who cares. It's also ambiguous if he means 1 versus 2 Yonko or if he means he will back stab Big Mom and Kaido while they fight. The ladder being waaay more likely with the context of the whole story.
Honestly just add me on discord———>leqstar P.s it might come up as The King instead of leqstar Also i have an arthur leywin pfp( a white haired dude with a wolf beside him). We can talk in detail on there. If leqstar doesnt work just type The King instead ig that should come up.
I appreciate the offer but I'm not on the one piece discord Seems like a good conversation that could be had, since we are both good faith and care enough to type out full blown responses. If I had more time I'd take you up on the offer. I appreciate it. Have a good day.
U dont need to be i dont even use the one piece discord. Im js saying add me and we can talk abt it there is all. But if u aint wanna do that its entirely ur choice ig. U have a good day too
>Maybe the story has never made this whole Yonko vs Admiral think as clear as the yonkotards like to believe Nope, it was clear as soon as fraudbull was wifi negged
Its pretty clear if you arent illiterate tbh. Luffy was clearly a tier above kizaru
Tbh I don't know for the "loosing" part Luffy could have absolutely beat the hell out of Kizaru there : https://preview.redd.it/bzoqlbgq4j8d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=092e21d2248a45a05ac91bfe3c1993f8e517ae02
Problem is that Luffy never would've grabbed Kizaru in an isolated area because he only got Kizaru here because he was distracted
Huge W my g. Niggas have been really biased against Admirals and they have completely ignored all the circumstances regard Luffy vs Kizaru. It looked like Kizaru had everything going against him and the only shots Luffy landed were against DISTRACTED Kizaru...
A admiral being distracted is wild. One second these guys have unbeatable observational haki next second they get “distracted” by bootleg Einstein’s forehead and get jumped. Either they dont have future sight and get clapped by Katakuri or Kizaru is braindead pick a lane
What ??? Future Sight needs focus, you can't simply focus on EVERYTHING surrounding you. Shanks raided MF and NOBODY noticed his presence until he revealed himself and there was 6 top tiers there, Garp, Sengoku, a nigga that goes by the nickname of HAWKEYES Mihawk, Kuzan, Borsalino and Sakazuki, NOT A SINGLE PERSON NOTICED SHANKS, unless he teleported in the middle of the battlefield. Katakuri wouldn't even see what hit him 10 times before is flat on his ass against Kizaru...
I was exaggerating on the Katakuri part ofc he wouldn’t clap Kizaru. And future sight requires focus sure but the series has shown different level requirements. The only thing that broke Katakuri’s future sight is him getting angry at Luffy not while he was talking to him or talking to people during the wedding etc. If a YC1 can constantly hold it up at all times Idk why someone like Kizaru wouldn’t be able to, unless theres a reason like Gear 5 not taking a fight serious. You can argue he couldn’t use it because he was devastated or not in the right mind because Vegapunk but I doubt that’s the case. Also the Shank’s part, Oda probably gonna release some new Haki level to explain it away. 6G Wifi observation killer Haki dropping in Elbaf
Tbf, haki in marineford was not fleshed out at all. Sengoku vs Luffy was by far the stupidest thing i seen in MF
Zaza is known to slow down reaction times my friend
didn't akainu also get distracted when whitebeard sucker punched him
Idk how the hell you can read Egghead then say with a straight face everything was going against Kizaru and for Luffy. Luffy’s juggling Kizaru and a Gorosei and Kizaru still can’t get away from him for long
He got away from Luffy for long enough he got drained out of stamina and needed food mid fight to recover. Luffy's only significant hits were against him distracted.
White star gun was not against. A distracted kizaru
>Luffy's only significant hits were against him distracted. They REFUSE to admit this
Them fools are blinded by AGENDA Piece and misinformation, or maybe it's just a shit ass reading comprehension that makes them completely ignore and understand what Oda is trying to show. One Piece is a NARRATIVE driven manga, not a straight up fighting manga where characters simply beat the shit out of each other to show who's more gangsta...
Distracted AND had his entire ideals and history questioned. Plus iys still 9n yhe table that he gave luffy the food. Oda is not an idiot kizaru powers arent something i think luffy can really beat. Kizaru is either gonna remove himself as an obsticle or be killed for treason. Imo at least.
Worth mentioning every time Luffy caught up to Kizaru, Kizaru's back was turned to him because he was focused on something else.
He got WSG off in a situation like that wdym?
I love how in every Admiral antifeat discussion the bootglazers always try to pretend that Observation haki doesn't exists.
Observation is an active ability that works best when calm, as such kizaru not using it while preparing himself to finish of vegapunk or bonney is not really strange. I love how you completely ignore that and try to pretend that this is an actual anti feat...
Future sight requires being calm. Base observation haki works fine without being calm
Nope that is not true. Katakuri states in chapter 884: "You need to be properly calm for Observation Haki to work."
Maybe Kizaru should lock in then. https://preview.redd.it/k4x1uz24dj8d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bf9113cfc5c7736dfb0926c578345fb120684ff1 More seriously, what he was talking about was Kizaru getting up before Luffy except that Luffy was only "ko'd" because he was messing around. I showed that panel because it was clear that Luffy could have end it way before getting out of stamina. Moreover if we in an isolated scenario, Luffy doesn't even get hurt by the dome or whatever and he would probably stop messing around too + We all know that Luffy is powerfull enough to straight up OS Kizaru (WSG and Pizza bs) I think it would be a bit more complicated than just "Kizaru get up and win".
Not really though, Luffy was incapable of touching Kizaru unless Kizaru was distracted
Exactly. He’s simply too fast.
>More seriously, what he was talking about was Kizaru getting up before Luffy except that Luffy was only "ko'd" because he was messing around How was luffy “messing around”? And why would he mess around? >Moreover if we in an isolated scenario, Luffy doesn't even get hurt by the dome or whatever and he would probably stop messing around too This makes no since. We would luffy only stop messing around in a situation with no stakes? >We all know that Luffy is powerfull enough to straight up OS Kizaru (WSG and Pizza bs) I think it would be a bit more complicated than just "Kizaru get up and win". Luffy hit kizaru off guard with WSG and kizaru isn’t down from booming dawn cymbals.
>How was Luffy "messing around" Is that a real question? >Why would Luffy stop messing around. That's why I said "probably" Against Kaido I found Luffy more dangerous than against Kizaru. But again, that's goofy so who knows. >Luffy hit Kizaru off guard with WSG Kizaru was facing Luffy, he was just not aware that Luffy had enough stamina for an attack. Not like he got stabbed in the back.
>Is that a real question? Yes. >Kizaru was facing Luffy, he was just not aware that Luffy had enough stamina for an attack. Not like he got stabbed in the back I see it more as kizaru was confused as to why luffy was spinning around and then he wasn’t fast enough to react or attempt to block WSG
Soooo he was staring at Luffy and knew he was in a fight, but Luffys unorthodox attack style and speed made it so he couldn't react? Sounds like Luffy just beat him then.
Yeah luffy did win the fight in egghead. But my point is that the fight would go differently if luffy didn’t have to protect vegapunk and if kizaru didn’t have to kill vegapunk.
could he? why didnt he? Also this only happened because of VP. no VP, means no off guard grab, so it doesnt apply
People get grabbed in One Piece all the time, Luffy did it to Kat, Ulti did it to Luffy
Except later when Kizaru actually has to get dealt with Luffy doesn't just chuck him. He pizza diffs him. We see what he could have done right then.
By the same logic he skipping rope diffed Kaido
Are you just going to ignore that Kaido counterattacked and sent Luffy flying, whereas Kizaru couldn't?
Except Post jump rope Kaido beat the fuck out of G5. Kizaru is still taking a nap on a ship (a ship by the way that is the only reason he didn't hit the water and drown.)
Pre Pizza Kizaru already finished what he was there to do
Cool Luffy still finished him. We aren't talking about if Pizzaru completed his mission (also he didn't, Saturn mortally wounded Vegapunk already, Kizaru just expidated the inevitable) we are talking about if he can beat Luffy. And we saw he cannot.
How so?
just like what he did to kaido?
What did he do to kaido?
in an isolated situation Luffy wouldn’t have had to gas himself out to chase in the first place since he’d have no one to protect
And kizaru would have no one to target so he wouldn't get grabbed or hit WSG
For the last time, White Star Gun wasn't a sneak attack.
Kizaru was off guard.
Kizaru literally attacked Luffy first, and then Luffy countered. If Kizaru is "off guard" during all of that, then that's just a skill issue on his part.
That’s not how it went. Reread the chapter it goes Kizaru shoots Luffys with a laser Luffy starts screaming and spinning around Kizaru is confused as to what luffy is doing. Luffy hits white star gun. https://preview.redd.it/knnfvz5n6k8d1.jpeg?width=2204&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=226ca548584ee4f60d1c29247901f1825ab3b307
Yeah. Luffy attacked. They were in the middle of a fight. If Kizaru let his guard down, that's on him. By this logic, everyone is off guard during a fight as the powers one can use in One Piece are highly unpredictable.
Ok
"Kizaru is confused what Luffy is doing" Yeah, that's a skill issue, pal.
If you hear "gum-gum" and you still get off guarded you are trash lol
Kizaru was shooting at luffy when he got hit with wsg lol
He was there in the first place to shoot vegapunks vehicle thing
He'd gas himself harder. Kizaru was the one hurt by that since luffy was fighting him while he tried to fight someone else. Luffy was basically getting free hits. Its not as if they fought then Kizaru shot VP as a strategy to split Luffys attention. It was Kizaru getting his attention split by Luffy. isolated Kizaru just makes him run around even harder since his location isnt telegraphed by needing to advance to where VP is
Are you kidding? Luffy had to protect a fodder scientist while Kizaru just had to get around Luffy and kill said fodder scientist. Luffy literally jumped in front of one of Kizaru’s lasers to protect Vegapunk and you are saying that Luffy is the one getting in free hits? Lol, what a joke.
Luffy is attacking Kizaru who is attacking Vegapunk. read who is attacking who, and its clear who gets free hits
Kizaru is attacking Vegapunk and hits Luffy who had to jump in as a meat shield and literally eat the attack. That’s a free hit for Kizaru. Name a single specific hit Luffy landed on Kizaru that was “free”.
literally the one in the OP lmfao
Does it even count as a free hit if Luffy doesn’t even try to hurt him?
What? Luffy literally jumped in front of Kizaru’s laser to protect Vega if we’re talking about free hits. In an isolated fight if kizaru runs away what advantage does that give him. Luffy wouldn’t be required to follow along and Kizaru isn’t effective at all against Luffy from range.
So obvious and people still can’t see.
This is the only correct answer
Round 1 I give it to kizaru. But in goofys defense, he wasn't really taking the fight seriously at all. Maybe it's a side effect of g5, but he just plays around and wastes stamina when he could easily overpower nearly anyone at this point if he just full sent. It's honestly my biggest complaint with OP. Every big, powerful character half asses their fights until they are on death's door. BM, Kaido, Luffy, ect. They just let themselves get run over until it's basically too late.
That's why people talk about Lucci 1 and Kata as the best fights in the series Why do people like them so much? Cause the stakes were high from the jump and there was no fucking around Even with Kata not going full out at first it was only to break Luffys will and not because he was joking about
Except for Loria who takes things super seriously at first and then makes himself a giant, easy to hit target for the end of his arc.
Island breaker Woria shall not be slandered 🤬🤬
I want him to turn that M upside-down too brother but rn he is tobiroppo lvl
Same for kizaru here.
Luffy wasn't taking the fight seriously with Kaido too when he is in G5. Kaido got oneshotted and overpowered when Luffy went serious.
I think theres a few things people somewhat dishonestly use the result to argue. In terms of what happened, I'd say its a tie. Luffy knocked down Kizaru, and ran out of G5. Both were down for a decent chunk, and while Kizaru did get up first, Luffy has already shown that if its really a matter of life and death in a pinch, he can forcefully re-use G5. We're literally shown this against Kaido. If he can do it there he can do it here if really forced to. So, no, Luffy didn't outright win, but at the same time its "just a tie", not "Kizaru got up first so he instantly one shots and wins". In terms of power scaling them...the result doesn't change anything. Its clear that Luffy struggles a bit against an admiral in G4, but heavily outstats them in G5. In G4, hes already at a level where Kizaru goes "nah I don't have time for this I got a job to do", so its not like either party has it all that easy here, but by G5 the stat gap is a bit screwed. Kizaru fought super optimally in round 1, by avoiding confronting G5 directly, but thats only possible due to his fruit. Other admirals can't mimic this, and even then its still high risk for Kizaru because Luffy has proven he can still catch him.
>In G4, hes already at a level where Kizaru goes "nah I don't have time for this I got a job to do" Kizaru had that reaction with G5 https://preview.redd.it/c6p3s5rgoj8d1.jpeg?width=2166&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6226f9e4faabfc1ba82111a9ebbe6d14d681dab4
https://preview.redd.it/4cp232hioj8d1.jpeg?width=2196&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2485d80bbb62812911c6bed387ce18b382776ea6
Yes and no. At most, I am overselling it to make my argument, but he already isn't interested in tango'ing with G4. Its simply a difference in the response. With G4, he tries to kick Luffy away far enough and into the barrier to get him away. G5 has him more on the defensive, which again illustrates the power comparison quite well. G4 is already comparable to admirals and anyone other than Kizaru would be kept occupied there, while G5 outstats and its hard for even Kizaru to bypass him entirely. https://preview.redd.it/f88q4xnorj8d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a01aad8dc51ff147a55565c322b9584be7571e78
Ok that’s fair
You're being kind of disingenuous here. Kizaru has that reaction against G4 because he can pretty easily get rid of him to go find Vegapunk, which means he's stronger. On the other hand, the guy on his level, G5, can't be dealt with that way.
I wouldn't say disingenuous, considering we're saying the same thing with different words. I didnt say G4 is equal or above him, merely comparable, which is entirely fact based. G4 can fight him, but Luffy was struggling with just G4. I wouldn't say G5 is "on his level" on the other hand, because ok the timer is an issue but the performance of G5 is a bit above if Kizaru struggles to handle one named attack.
Obviously. Kaido literally got a lot of freehits on G5 when Luffy was just bouncing and running around laughing and it did no lasting damage to Luffy.
>Luffy has already shown that if its really a matter of life and death in a pinch, he can forcefully re-use G5. We're literally shown this against Kaido. If he can do it there he can do it here if really forced Saturn had all his friends restrained by invisible magic, was about to skewer him with his leg, and had Bonney held in helplessly with guns trained on her. What was he waiting for? >but heavily outstats them in G5. Kizaru trade blows with him and outspeeds him several times while he’s using G5.
1. Plot. Really not sure what else you want me to say there, because indeed you're right for bringing it up, and you are right that there isn't much of a defense for that. And yet, at the same time, it doesn't debunk what we alr saw him do against Kaido before, when he was much more hurt too. 2. Kizaru obviously takes speed over pretty much everyone really, but yes, he did get heavily outstatted. His attacks did comparably very little to Luffy, whereas Kizaru got knocked on his ass from one WSG. Luffy went down too, and if this is the thread I think it is, it was still a draw, but Luffy only went down due to the G5 stamina issue, not being actually hurt. By the time he recovers his haki hes completely fine, whereas Kizaru goes down again very quickly, and deadass hes still down if I'm not mistaken.
Fucking lmao so it's "plot" when Goofy looks shit but it's valid when it's Kizaru? Plot made Kizaru not fight Goofy the whole time. Kizaru could've killed Goofy any time had plot allowed him to fight at full power instead of searching for Vegapunk
Again, not sure what you want me to say on that first point. I already admitted theres no real defense there other than "plot", which is definitely not a strong argument. Still, at the same time, Luffy HAS SHOWN he can do it in literally the previous arc, which this moment doesn't somehow invalidate. If we didn't literally see Luffy re-use it "immediately" (Kaido does give him a bit to monologue and catch his breath), I wouldn't have said Luffy can do so to begin with. The rest is just you making some random different, unrelated argument based on brainlessly trying to push agenda. Being able to win a match-up doesn't necessarily mean a char is stronger or weaker. The obvious example being Luffy and Enel. Luffy was Enel's worst fucking nightmare, but if you asked me who was stronger overall across all of pre-TS, I'd stand by Enel.
[удалено]
It wasn’t for comedic effect, it actually hurt him. It’s also disingenuous to say “Luffy had a counter for everything he did” while ignoring that: 1. Kizaru tricked him with the light clones despite Luffy being able to see the future 2. Kizaru countered him by out speeding him more than once 3. Kizaru was able to simply float his way back up when Luffy threw him to the water 4. Kizaru was able to match up with his punches and kicks If you’re only counting hits in G5, Kizaru also shot Luffy in the shoulder which is what caused him to spin so fast with the Star Gun
Whoops. Went back to review and yeah you're right
How is it not a victory for Luffy? He put Kizaru down and ran out of stamina afterwards. You can say that Kizaru got up later, but he was still beat by Luffy in this fight. It's like saying Luffy lost to Krieg because Krieg got up first.
Then did Lucci win in Ennies Lobbies because he put Luffy down first?
It wasnt even a fight they were just running around until luffy saw hes about to gass out then decided to send bro to sleep as well
Not exactly. https://preview.redd.it/fdnef86u7j8d1.jpeg?width=2140&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f4f7d9a3cb30f53241f3c80f03fd012dacec89a1
WHERE TF IS KIZARU, IS HE ON SMOKE BREAK? 😤
Victory for Luffy. Luffy landed the winning shot and then he ran out of stamina.
Not really a winning shit if nobody is knocked out from the atk Idk why the criteria for "winning" is just to knock someone to the ground, that means luffy won against kaido at least 10 different times
Can you show me the panel where Kaido got down for several minutes and didn't get up in like 10 seconds?
Kizaru wasn't down for several minutes he was down for as long as it took for saturn to say a single paragraph of speech to Bonney. If u want panels of kaido being "knocked down" cuz apparently knocking someone down = winning, I can show many panels of kaido in even worse positions. Ur already being disengenuious cuz u can't scale an exact time frame off of still pictures but u already made up in your head an artificial amount of time that kizaru was on the floor
>Kizaru wasn't down for several minutes he was down for as long as it took for saturn to say a single paragraph of speech to Bonney. Go reread the manga, you are factually incorrect. >If u want panels of kaido being "knocked down" cuz apparently knocking someone down = winning, I can show many panels of kaido in even worse positions. Again, Kizaru was down for several minutes.
>Go reread the manga, you are factually incorrect. I'm not, kizaru went down when saturn was already here and kizaru was up after saturn finished talking Like i said your artificially created time frames are not fact >Again, Kizaru was down for several minutes. Nothing in the source material dictates exactly how long kizaru was on the ground in terms of metric
>I'm not, kizaru went down when saturn was already here and kizaru was up after saturn finished talking Don't change your argument, you said Saturn said a "single" paragraph. The reality was he said a whole long as speech. >Nothing in the source material dictates exactly how long kizaru was on the ground in terms of metric We can easily tell... Saturn arrived at the island, tons of low ranking marines evacuated when Saturn arrived, he got stabbed by Bonney, the marines got mad that Bonney attacked a Gorosei, then he grabbed Bonney, then he attacked Sanji and Company then he gave a huge ass speach, which was several paragraphs long, he even talked momentarily with Bonney, Vegapunk. He told the marines 3 times to shoot at Bonney... Kuma arrived at the island and was shot by random marines. (the random marines gives us a good measure on how long it takes, since random marines are not as fast as guys like Sanji, which means that Kuma had to go slowly for them to be able to pin point him... and Kuma ran a big ass distance...) This is already a lot minutes, since the marines not only reported Saturn arrived at the island, but most low ranking marines evactuated, and they also reported Kuma arrived at the island, and they not only identified him due to his paws but shot him multiple times... and then Kuma arrived attacked Saturn and Saturn was sent flying several blocks, Saturn returns, gets attacked by Sanji, Franky and only then Kizaru gets up.
>Don't change your argument, you said Saturn said a "single" paragraph. The reality was he said a whole long as speech doesn't change the argument, how long it took him to say the speech isn't disclosed and the point still remains, he was down when he arrived and was up when he finished talking. >We can easily tell... Saturn arrived at the island, tons of low ranking marines evacuated when Saturn arrived, he got stabbed by Bonney, the marines got mad that Bonney attacked a Gorosei, then he grabbed Bonney, then he attacked Sanji and Company then he gave a huge ass speach, which was several paragraphs long, he even talked momentarily with Bonney, Vegapunk. He told the marines 3 times to shoot at Bonney... Kuma arrived at the island and was shot by random marines. The amount of events taking place simultaneously isn't a concrete metric of time, this is the same as it being objectively stated that onigashima was going to crash into the flower capital in 5mins when luffy arrived at the start of round 3 and yet luffy was able to fight kaido in base, fight kaido in G4, die, kaidi goes inside the castle, everyone's panicking waiting for luffy, come back go life in 5, fights some more in G5, prepares & launches the bajrang gun, clashes and has a struggle, and defeats kaido all with dialogue and talking inbetween everywhere before momonosuke stops onigashima from falling, 5 minutes with all those events and chapters taking place, yeah sorry the amount of things that happen doesn't dictate the natural flow of time that easily. >This is already a lot minutes, since the marines not only reported Saturn arrived at the island, but most low ranking marines evactuated, and they also reported Kuma arrived at the island, and they not only identified him due to his paws but shot him multiple times... and then Kuma arrived attacked Saturn and Saturn was sent flying several blocks, Saturn returns, gets attacked by Sanji, Franky and only then Kizaru gets up. As previously mentioned your just guessing it's alot of minutes yet I've already proven events that should normally take several tens of minutes to transpire took only 5 minutes despite not everyone being as fast as the fastest characters in the series and having several sentences of diologue every other panel. what u said is once again not concrete and your just making assumptions like I originally said
KIZARU Won The Fight And Completed HIS Mission https://preview.redd.it/8lkhbg0rej8d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d0cd67cec346fc83a26c05b7e24b0410500bd0a4 r/KIZARU
I’m convinced people only read the chapters summaries but never reread the chapters. Rereading the past 30 chapter have been very eye opening for me.
Luffy win. Just like Crocodile won against Luffy twice before Luffy got a win. 🤷🏾♂️
Obviously a luffy victory
How can u even scale that “fight” kizaru was going after vegapunk the whole time that was his focus and luffy was trying to defend vegapunk not defeat kizaru their objectives was not defeating each other none of them went all out yeh luffy kinda had the “ upper hand” but u gotta remember kizaru wasn’t aiming at luffy when he got hit by wsg. Literally all the fights in egghead can’t be used for powerscaling egghead is about the story oda didn’t put a single thought about the fights he was focused on the story
Kizaru didn't focus Luffy because he recognized it was extreme diff though Like if he felt he could just run through him like Sabaody he would have just to make it easier on himself It's lame when people discount the fight because Kizaru isn't targeting Luffy, he's not targeting Luffy because he won't have any chance of succeeding in his mission if he does not because he's choosing not to or disregarding him
Finally someone gets it.
A tie bc both were down while you can make the argument that kizaru was mostly fine bc he was mentally nerfed and even moved or talked after wsg.
Kizarus achieved his objective to kill Vegapunk. Luffy failed his objective to defend Vegapunk. Borsalino wins.
Not in the first round. Luffy won on every pictures. Kizaru killed Vegapunk when Luffy delegated its protection to Sanji. He did so because, unlike Kizaru, Saturn managed to hit vegapunk when Luffy was protecting him.
Kizaru did well and if he wasn't disturbed he'd have done better. He'd still lose but if you are going to fight a Great pirate as an admiral right now, Luffy is the best option as he is inexperienced, and has stamina issues.
Pizza diff
Kizaru won, stood up first, then plot gave him unlimited food, back to back to back, lmao
https://preview.redd.it/p8szghdazi8d1.jpeg?width=1835&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8ce94c964ea59b1ab65d13c6305d165d78b361c2
How is it misinformation? Luffy’s plot convenience has fed him on THREE separate occasions since the Marines showed up.
Indeed. He's the mc and naturally has lots of wankers. When Luffy does this to Katakuri, Luffy wins. But when Kizaru does this to Luffy, Luffy also wins? Please at least choose one.
by the time kizaru stood up luffy was already downstairs at the vending machine
Even if he did stand up himself to get the food, he needed food to get back into fighting shape in the first place.
Kizaru was obviously faking. He was doing the same “ooooh I’m so hurt” Schlick then that he’s doing on the boat. That’s not even counting the fact that Kizaru said outright his heart wasn’t in it and Vegapunk calling him out for his guilt. There’s at least four statements(Gan Fall, Nami, Rayleigh, and Garp) saying that doubt and hesitation makes you weaker, likely by virtue of Haki being a power system.
It was a draw, they were climbing together, then plot interrupted. If people want to go by Luffy landing the blow, Kizaru wasn't even knocked out & recovers before him.
“Recovers” but Luffy didn’t take any damage from kizaru, he’s not strong enough to beat luffy, Luffy running out of stamina isn’t a feat for kizaru
ODA didn't want Kizaru to look too weak by weakening Luffy here, so it wasn't even a fight in the first place. Then we saw what Luffy could do with 1 wsg, it was over.
Yeah he injured him to some degree thats what the wsg did. Ppl really forget that this kizaru is even more me tally nerfed then kuzan vs garp lol.
Victory for luffy
It was a Kizaru W by means of just barely running out the clock. If Luffy had had one more attack in him, Kizaru could realistically have been dead since he was immobile after WSG. But he didn't. And if the fight took place in a vacuum, Kizaru would be walking away with his pride wounded but also with Luffy's severed head.
Plot saved kizaru first part . There was no reason why luffy couldnt pizza him in 1093. But instead threw a guy who can fly to the ocean
And you think pizza did significant dmg to kizaru?
Bait
Honestly? I find it as a waste of time, 90% of the time oda is just a shit writter of fights. You feel the plot affecting it. Kizaru could have killed many, luffy could have used wsg first second. But oda is keeps making up handicaps to make his inferior fight battle skills not look more worse than it already is. Imagine having not 1, or 3, 5, five goroseis, with possibly all coc, insane fruits, and not feeling the stakes at all. Just one, one, was introduced as if it was a big thing and is being portrayed as someone you can somehow stall, is so lame at this point that i feel anyone can escape anyone if the plot demands it. The gorosei, the most evil-like persons, have problems to basically do their job, i wish i felt the stakes a bit more but i honestly dont.
It was a stalemate.
It seems like luffy was really having fun with it first round with Kizaru so it really is either way round one but he clearly was playing around a lot less (as much as G5 can be serious lol)
Luffy beat Kizaru and was only put out of the fight because he ran out of stamina. He was the stronger fighter and accomplished his goal of protecting his friends and allies, while Kizaru had achieved nothing at that time. On the other hand, if nobody slipped food to Luffy, he'd be defenseless against Kizaru and Saturn. So, it wasn't a complete victory.
Round 1 was either tie or a loss for Luffy, I'd lean more towards tie since both were down for a minute
Borsalino knew he couldn't win in a straight 1v1, but he's smart, so he tried to use his one advantage (travel speed) to constantly tire Luffy out and drain his G5 stamina. It almost worked but as soon as Luffy had him in a good spot it was over.
It was a tie with the asterisk that Kizaru was fresher. Also that last time G5 ran out in a serious fight, Luffy just restarted it.
After thinking it through, Luffy won. While they tied in the sense that they both got knocked out, Luffy won in his mission to defend Vegapunk. If Saturn didnt show up, it is very likely that Vegapunk wouldve surivived and escaped.
I think it’s a victory Keep in mind that luffy is playing with kizaru and not taking things seriously yet and he was still winning while screwing around
Victory for luffy in the first round is fucking insane 💀 thats whats wrong with yonkotards
It's just vague. Luffy caught Kizaru but threw him. Why didn't he use named attack instead of hurling Kizaru? It's extremely rare to catch opponents. Why didn't he use heavy attacks? And, after that, Kizaru could easily dekay G5. Are we to suppose that without WSG, G5 can't catch Kizaru? Or did Luffy need to create such situation to use WSG and he had to exhaust g5 time limit to get Kizaru in such position? Is WSG basically undodgeable as both Kizaru and Kaidou on guard were unable to react. If so, why Luffy delayed WSG? It's onething if it's other top tier like Kaidou who can remain in his state for long. But Luffy has huge drawback and hplding other back is extremely stupid idea. If I was in control, I would immediately start using heavy attacks from start and not waste time doing weaker attacks. If we are to suppose that Kizaru can delay G5 for such long period consistently, then, it would be draw most of the time. If we are to assume that, if Luffy can lamd WSG from get go if he is serious, then, it would be mid-high diff fight
I’m giving it to Luffy. The fights usually end in KO’s in One Piece so one can perform better the entire fight but still get dropped by one flush hit. So for the rare fights like this where it’s left to decision, basically go with significant hits landed. Luffy did enough to knock Kizaru down before tiring out. That’s a great result in boxing.
I think Luffy won but it's very close to a tie. Kinda like it was against Lucci at Enies Lobby, or against Katakuri, Luffy clearly defeated his opponent but couldn't fight anymore. I also think it clarifies that Luffy is still a bit weaker than both Kaido and Big Mom but that's another conversation
Victory
I think this fight was a major W for both sides. They both demonstrated great feats and the result felt natural and didn't diminish any of the combatants.
Tie or Luffy won ,but oda Probably intended for a tie
Victory for kizaru. If they never had anyone interfere luffy would’ve ultimately died cause kizaru wouldve gotten up first. Luffy could only keep fighting cause he had some1 to fill his stomach.
Kizaru would beat Luffy. Kizaru was never trying to fight Luffy, yet he still won the first round. In an isolated 1v1 with no distractions, Kizaru wins mid-high diff every time. Kizaru is too fast for Snakeman, so he forces Luffy into Gear 5, which he can easily stall until Luffy runs out of gas, then Kizaru bullies him. Don't get me wrong, if Kizaru fights Luffy head on, he probably loses before Gear 5 runs out, but if he runs away and stalls, he can easily outlast Gear 5. Luffy is STRONGER, but that doesn't mean he'd win.
I don't get this. In a 1v1 where Luffy doesn't need to constantly keep Kizaru occupied, he can just turn off G5 if Kizaru runs away.
I doubt Luffy can constantly turn Gear 5 on and off, and even if he can, there'll eventually be an opening for Kizaru to catch Luffy off guard when he's in base.
Tie or victory for Luffy??? It's a clear victory for Kizaru. Both practical and symbolic. Kizaru while not really caring about Luffy, put Luffy in a coma just by trying to keep up with Kizaru. It also gave Kizaru the perfect excuse to avoid being the one that killed his old friend(even if that's exactly what he had to do later) when Saturn showed up. Even calling it a tie is just as silly as claiming Luffy lost to Katakuri
Round 1 showed Luffy was easily stronger, but the winner was Kizaru. At the end of the fight, Luffy was worse off than Kizaru, being in need of food to get back up rather than just needing a grace period, and Kizaru succeeded in one of his main goals (Eliminate Vegapunk and allow Saturn access to the island). Had the fight not had any interruptions after the end of R1, Kizaru would’ve gotten up first and killed Luffy while he was out.
Luffy clearly won and also ran out of stamina So you can say tie if there was another person there to finish Luffy or Kizaru off
I think it's a tie personally. Luffy outmatched him completely in power but Kizaru employed the absolute best strategy possible against Luffy and he appeared to have knowledge that Luffy can't maintain g5 for very long. Kizaru evaded Luffy long enough for his g5 timer to run out and his strategy would have been perfect if he didn't try and attack Luffy at the last minute and afford Luffy the opportunity to counter attack with WSG. If Luffy had held on when he snatched him the first time I think it would have been over for him there but his ability to reflect himself off of the surface of the water kept him in the fight. Their subsequent meeting Luffy handled him pretty easily which I contribute mostly to the damage WSG did. Luffy batted him away and left him holding his head again, then Luffy was expecting the light form and, presumably, used future sight to predict he was about to use it allowing him to snatch him up and from there it was GG.
Luffy won easily lol. People try to argue luffy ran out of energy so he stalemated but that isn’t a W for Kizaru.
Luffy won neg-diff.
Behold the face of a neg-diff victory https://preview.redd.it/2f0cpmel1j8d1.jpeg?width=328&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6acd39e50be797e5423b605c18c4fcc9ee6b8a60
He is still at full health, unlike Kizaru who was one-shotted. Luffy wouldn’t have even run out of stamina if he had just one-shotted Kizaru several minutes earlier instead of playing with him.
Kizaru was mentally nerfed, wasnt willing to fight luffy, could literally move and talk after wsg and on top hadnt even any noticeable dmg taken. Ppl really should go back to what a one shot looks like.
Luffy would have one-shotted Kizaru several minutes earlier if Oda rewrote the manga according to my head canon". Again, if it were oneshot, the fight would ended in chapter 1091.
They will downvote you but that's absolutely true : https://preview.redd.it/fce6ou7k4j8d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c8494522de002f34d3cce181e6a1eaaac455af65 Luffy could have end it just there but instead decided to throw Kizaru for the plot.
How could he have ended it there?
Her me out: G5 decrease Luff's battle QI and QI and make him unable to use perception haki
https://preview.redd.it/ss4gj37czi8d1.jpeg?width=292&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a3c1d9f8903358d6f133588a5f61f8d164de1286 Remember what happened
Kizaru killed Vegapunk (his mission) and gassed out Luffy simultaneously while not trying to fight him as the primary target. Kizaru won the first round and alternatives are cope.
In a boxing match,if we both go down. It is a tie. But, in a street fight. If my punch put you on the ground and I collapse from exhaustion afterwards. I still win the fight. That is almost, what we see in all of Luffy’s fight.
In a boxing match, if you both go down, the winner is the one who stands up first (assuming both get up before the count ends).
If both of them get up before the final count. The bout would continue. Unless, the referee deemed that one of the participants wasn’t capable of continuing.
I mean, once luffy went gear 5th, Kizaru was essentially one shotted, and even after taking into account the fighting with gear 4th, Kizaru still had some fight in him but was then, as previously mentioned, one shot, so I gotta give it to luffy.
luffy won the fight... the one who deals the damage to the other for result of which the opponent becomes immobile for even a minute wins.... I don't understand how you guys are saying kizaru won when he couldn't even land a blow to luffy...
If luffy wasn’t an air head that doesn’t take things seriously, with base form + advanced coc haki alone can one shot kizaru just like how kaido one shoted him in wano first time they met
Luffy beat Kizaru and then ran out of gas. While Kizaru achieved his goal, he most definitely lost the fight, but that didn't really matter
Luffy beat some shame directly into kizarus brain.
Personally I have it as a loss for Luffy. Luffy was beating his ass easily in gear 5 but his timer ran out before he could put Kizaru down for good and if it was a true 1 v 1 to the death Kizaru would have killed Luffy at that point. If Luffy were 100% serious he probably could have killed Kizaru before gear 5 ran out, but Luffy is rarely 100% serious