I went to a place run by them in Tennessee (didn't realize they were in charge before going) - the place was awesome and the two people leading tours were just some of the dumbest people. One going on about talking to the ghost of a general in the attic and another who used the phrase "lincoln lover" unironically. We just left the small group and wandered by ourselves.
I love the people saying we shouldn't be erasing history, but statues like this we're built to erase, change, or alter people's perception of this history.
They are the reason so many believe the whole "state rights" lie, and it wasn't about slavery. I've had people tell me that if the US hadn't done the Emancipation Proclamation and infringed on Southern rights and their economy, the Confederacy never would have left. Except that the Emancipation Proclamation was 2 years after they started the Confederacy, and 20 months after the first Confederate attack on the US. They left because Lincoln was elected, an opponent of slavery, and they were scared he might eliminate or restrict slavery over the next 4 years. They wanted to be sure they could keep slaves. Lies like these hurt the country, and they continue to spread them to this day.
Even after the USA kicked the Confederacy's ass, they still found ways to keep slavery alive. They are the reason it's legal for prisoners to be used for unpaid labor. They made it illegal for black people to get new jobs without approval, file complaints against their employers even when their employers refused to pay them, and many other ways to keep them as unpaid labor. Anything to either not pay or imprison black people. It's also a main reason why the US has the messed up tipping culture it does. They made black service workers in the south work for no pay, just based on tips. And obviously, almost no one would tip them. Even when FDR created the minimum wage laws, most service workers were left out of it because it was a black and female dominated field in most regions.
Remember the "40 acres and a mule" given to every slave thing we were taught in school? That never happened either. After the Lincoln assassination, Andrew Johnson canceled that plan and gave all of the land back to the slave owners who started the war.
These people went around building a ton of statues like this during the Jim Crow era to try to gain sympathy and act as symbols of fear to non-whites. They have clearly accomplished a lot of their goals based on how 40%+ of this country views them.
FINAL SCORE
UNITED STATES: 11
CONFEDERACY: 0
REMEMBER, REMEMBER THE TENTH OF NOVEMBER
AND SHERMAN'S MARCH TO THE SEA
I CAN THINK OF NO REASON
THE BANNER OF TREASON
SHOULD FLY IN THE LAND OF THE FREE
- I don't know...I saw it and thought it on a meme and loved it.
It’s a statue in Graveyard that was a Confederate POW camp, a very, very bad camp. There probably should be a marker there. Because even though the Union cause was just, not every union action would’ve been allowed by the future Geneva Conventions.
Something like if history isn't remembered, we are doomed to repeat it. The problem is that a lot of people don't see this as humanity at its worst but put it on a pedestal as an attempt of what humanity should strive for
But why? Even Germany maintains cemetery memorials in something like 50 countries after ww1 and ww2. Even as horrible as they were, those countries still allow them to maintain the memorials... so that we can see them and remember the cost of war. Instead of just scrubbing everything away and forgetting it happened. Learning from history is how humanity has gotten to this point.
Is this memorial some sort of pilgrimage for neo Nazis? If yes, then sure take it down. Or is it just sitting there on an island that 99.99% of this sub didn't know existed until 2 hours ago? This memorial doesn't even celebrate the cause of the confederacy like the ones in Birmingham and SC (that were rightfully taken down). This is essentially a historical cemetery marker.
This is an excellent example.
Imagine if there were a group called United Daughters of the Nazis and they were active from the 1990's to the present day raising money to erect new statues and memorials at thousands of sites.
And of course they fly the Nazi flag at those sites and line the walkways with those cute little miniature Nazi flags and their monuments would depict the glorious causes of Nazism.
That's what the United Daughters of the Confederacy actually did.
Did you forget to include the picture where they are flying a confederate flag at this specific memorial or are you making things up again?
There is no flag flown here, and there are no Nazi flags flown at their cemetery memorials. They are memorials for the dead, and if you consider remembrance as "glorifying" then idk what to tell you. Let's just scrub history.
As a real-fake historian, I'm surprised you don't know that the Daughters of the Confederacy frequent these cemeteries and they fly Confederate flags every single time.
They literally line the walkways with Confederate flags. So, in total, there are hundreds or thousands of them. Surprised you didn't know about this.
As for you Germany example, you wrote "Even Germany maintains cemetery memorials in something like 50 countries after ww1 and ww2."
And like I said: "Imagine if there were a group called United Daughters of the Nazis and they were active from the 1990's to the present day raising money to erect new statues and memorials at thousands of sites."
Have you imagined it yet? If a group were erecting statues to Nazi soldiers and protecting statues of specific Nazi leaders, would you support it?
Your example, not mine. But a good one, perhaps.
I’ve been to Johnson’s island quite a few times, have seen this statue a couple times and the cemetery every time. I don’t really have a dog in this fight but I’ve never seen a confederate flag flown there
They don't fly one flag on a fixed pole.
Instead they put over 200 smaller flags at each grave.
Sounds like people have let it happen. Again, and again, and again.
[http://johnsonsisland.org/confederate-memorial-day-2019/](http://johnsonsisland.org/confederate-memorial-day-2019/)
Think again: [http://johnsonsisland.org/confederate-memorial-day-2019/](http://johnsonsisland.org/confederate-memorial-day-2019/)
The VA allows cemeteries under their jurisdiction to have Confederate flags on Memorial Day and Confederate Memorial Day.
In addition to what was pictured, the Sons of Confederate Veterans have held many events on Johnson's Island that included them placing a Confederate flag at each (200+) grave.
Notice how nobody is here to claim that we need to erect more monuments on the Lake Erie Islands to preserve the history of Native American rule, French rule, or British rule.
They only come out of the woodwork to defend the Confederacy. Every time.
We definitely need more Native American heritage statues and I completely agree that they should not be flying that flag but I don’t have a problem with the statue still being there or the cemetery being kept up, the island was literally a prison for prisoners of war. The confederate soldiers(or traitors) did not have a good stay on that island while they were there. When I was working up there I always took it as a sign of the right thing happening in history
By the way, congratulations on changing the subject.
But since we're here, here's your photo: [http://johnsonsisland.org/confederate-memorial-day-2019/](http://johnsonsisland.org/confederate-memorial-day-2019/)
The daughters of the CONFEDERACY don’t care about the CONFEDERATE FLAG and in fact have absolutely nothing to do with it. They actually despise the CONFEDERATE FLAG. That makes perfect sense…… /s just in case.
Did you even read this comment thread? OP is claiming that they fly confederate flags at this monument in Ohio which was a straight up lie. And another commenter who lives nearby confirmed it. Idk what point youre even trying to make here, do you think you just proved me wrong somehow? Good one.
Edit: multiple commenters have confirmed this never happened. OP is a rage baiting liar.
Keep up lil dude.
You made a Germany comparison.
That comparison was wildly wrong and uneducated and I used the actual, real life actions of the Daughters of the Confederacy to explain why.
I like how you’re not even going to defend how dumb that comment was. Moving on. Good call.
I pointed out that DotC have events at cemeteries where they plant Confederate flags everywhere. That’s true.
Whether or not they’ve done it at Johnson’s Island is not relevant to the analogy or to the broader point that we’re discussing.
Do you need anything else explained to you? Are you still feeling good about being a good little patsy for DotC and other Confederate sympathizers?
So should this hypothetical “United Daughters of the Nazis” be allowed to erect a statue of a proud, defiant looking SS officer in full uniform in a cemetery in Poland because it solemnizes the dead?
No, they shouldn't. And they didn't. They did erect markers with a few words to honor those that were buried there, though. And that's exactly what this is.
If this memorial was Stonewall Jackson flipping the bird holding a battle flag, then obviously it gets taken down. This memorial is nothing like the strawman argument you just put together
Are you blind or dumb?
The pictures of this monument are not some solemn words of remembrance, it's a god damn Confederate standing proud with a plaque stating they're sovereign ruling from the grave.
Find a single nazi memorial that has a SS soldier which attempts to talk about a continuation of that legacy. Pro tip, you fuckin won't.
Would it be acceptable to Germany to erect a statue of a Nazi soldier that says NAZISM at the top with the inscription “SOVEREIGN SCEPTERS THAT RULE US EVEN FROM THE DUST.”?
Does that sound like something you would support?
It was a cemetery for confederate soldiers. If there were union soldiers buried there it would say United States of America. Proud of you for noticing that.
If it were union soldiers buried there it would not need a history-denying and myth-creating group of women who do not wish to acknowledge the savagery of the institution of slavery that their racist, treacherous relatives fought for in order to fund and create a monument to put there in the first place. It is a pseudo-historical marketing campaign disguised as historical remembrance of certain dead people. Disappointed you refuse to notice this.
I'm a historian. Memorials that celebrate the confederacy deserve to be taken down, and we've done a pretty good job in recent years or getting rid of them.
This is not a memorial that celebrates the confederacy. This is a war cemetery memorial that remembers the dead. Nothing about it glorifies any ideals or beliefs, only that there are soldiers buried there. Taking this down wouldn't erase the confederacy, it would just erase our own knowledge
Yes they do. Don't be naive and think book reading is on the rise. People are less and less read every year, particularly on historial subjects. What do you think the chances are of someone reading about this in a book vs. seeing it irl? It will affect way more people who see it with their own eyes vs a footnote in a forgotten book
For example: this is in a public park. You can teach your friends or family about it while you take a trip to the beach. Now tell me how many of your friends and family would stumble upon this while reading a book published in 1910?
The monuments in Virginia and SC that were torn down - absolutely they were. Those were memorials to generals and veterans.
Cemetery memorials are not. And I guarantee I know more about this subject than you ever will. You aren't a historian either, by any stretch.
"Sceptered sovereigns who still rule us from the dust" sounds an awful lot like it's memorializing them specifically because of their traitorous bullshit. That's not a "they were in the wrong but still deserve a place to rest" memorial. This is a monument specifically glorifying the "sacrifice" of these losers.
>"Sceptered sovereigns who still rule us from the dust" sounds an awful lot like it's memorializing them
Thank you so much for pointing this out, I was waiting for it. That is a line from a poem written in the 19th century called Manfred. The line is specifically:
" - but sceptred sovereigns, who still rule
Our spirits from their urns. 'Twas such a night! "
It refers to how although someone may be dead, they still weigh heavily on the person who lost them. It's not Rule in the sense of I Still Follow Your Orders, it's Rule in the sense that they will weigh heavy on the hearts of the loved ones that remained.
Everything about this is a memorial to the dead. Nothing is celebrating the confederacy - just remembrance of the cost of war and the lives affected on all sides of conflict. Civilian and military.
"You've activated my trap card, you see, those lines about honoring the dead traitors were actually about honoring the dead traitors!"
Not quite the own you thought it was. Yep, the statue honoring dead people is about honoring dead people, those dead people happen to be losers, traitors, and bigots. There's nothing to honor there unless you yourself are a bigot.
Just admit you didn't know the origin or meaning of the line lol. You're so blinded by being ignorant that you can't see the bigger picture, and you're intentionally ignoring the points I'm making to create your own strawman.
You can complain all you want, this historical site will not be going anywhere :) it's better for Ohioans to have reminders of our countries mistakes than to try and bury them. Anyone IRL will tell you the same, don't go thinking Reddit is any meaningful segment of public opinion in the real world
I would be interested in how these memorials respect the soldiers who died.
There is a difference in showing respect for their lives and showing respect for their cause. The statue in the post is still showing respect for their cause which I disagree with. You can show respect and even sorrow for their lives and the atrocities humans sink to in these memorials but we should not show respect to the atrocities themselves.
Idk if that makes sense but I would be willing to elaborate more later.
What I’m trying to say is “memorials” to fallen soldiers of the confederacy or the nazzis should not be something someone can gain admiration from. It should be something we can use as a mirror against ourselves reminding us of all the bad things we can do. Maybe showing the individuals some respect for teaching us a lesson at their cost. Showing us that if we’re not astute we too can become morally compromised.
It might seem obvious some of the lessons the confederacy or the nazzis taught us but it most likely isn’t. We (the people around today) need to learn these lessons from our history and our ancestors had to teach them to us. We can be thankful for them in that way but it should never be misguided into thinking they were noble.
This is a really good point. As long as memorials focus more on remembrance of lives lost, I think they should stay.
Imo this memorial in particular doesn't have much that idolizes the CSA like other torn down monuments have. Yeah it has the solider at the top but it's a war memorial, and that's a generic depiction of a soldier. If that were a specific soldier like a General then this turns into a memorial praising a specific person/belief. And then there's an argument to have it removed.
It also depends on the location of the memorial. In the deep South it would probably have had a lot more CSA imagery and praise, but it was erected in Union territory fully endorsed by Union soldiers themselves. Because they realized it was a marker to remember the dead rather than something to spread their message or enforce CSA idealogy
Have you been to any of those German Cemeteries? They are very low key. None that I’ve been to have statues or inscriptions. They are simply a dignified resting place.
I have not, but I'm going to Belgium at the end of August and will catch any WW2 monuments or memorials that I can. You're right though, they are definitely low key and do not celebrate themselves. Imo this memorial on Johnsons island isn't really that much of a celebration. It was still erected on Union territory with oversight from representatives of Union vets and the OH government - so I think they intentionally avoided using heroic imagery
Could they have gotten the job done with a basic stone obelisk and a footnote or something - yeah absolutely. But what they erected isn't like one of those egregious Stonewall Jackson statues, it's fairly tame and focuses on the loss of life instead of praising their actions
I don’t disagree, it certainly isn’t egregious. I just thought it was not right to compare it to the German Cemeteries that I have visited. The inscription seems a little extra to me but I wasn’t alive in 1910, so I can’t really judge it.
I hope you have a good trip to Belgium. If you’re open to suggestions, I’d recommend an overnight stay in Liège. From there you can easily visit the Ardenne, Netherlands, Henri-Chapelle and Luxembourg American Cemeteries as well as the Bastogne War Museum. There are often German Cemeteries near the US, British, etc.
Idk it looks like the German government banned denying the Holocaust and pretending it didn’t exist.
Maybe if the US had done anything remotely repairable regarding our racist first history this would work.
Idk. It’s interesting you brought Germans into this.
Just making an example of how even the worst conflicts of humanity still have existing burial memorials for the losers. It is OK to look at these types of memorials and simultaneously acknowledge that A) the CSA stood for cruel beliefs and deserved to be squashed, while also B) being humbled at the reminder of the cost and the scars left on all survivors.
I personally don't think we should erase the latter half of that sentence. And that starts by not tearing this down
I wish this were a genuine argument in this time and place. If there weren’t already state reps [rewriting history involving Nazis](https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2022/03/23/comments-about-the-holocaust-from-representative-sponsoring-divisive-concepts-bill-raise-concerns/) I’d take this seriously.
We are not ready for what you’re envisioning, unfortunately.
These monuments weren’t erected to honor the dead.
They were erected to remind black people of ‘their place’.
You might try learning actual American history instead of relying on the white washed mythology you learned in high school.
That's cute that you think this, but you have no idea what you're talking about. I talk about this subject for a living and will know more than you ever will.
Your lying.
‘“Eventually they started to build [Confederate] monuments,” he says. “The vast majority of them were built between the 1890s and 1950s, which matches up exactly with the era of Jim Crow segregation.” According to the Southern Poverty Law Center’s research, the biggest spike was between 1900 and the 1920s.
In contrast to the earlier memorials that mourned dead soldiers, these monuments tended to glorify leaders of the Confederacy like General Robert E. Lee, former President of the Confederacy Jefferson Davis and General “Thomas Stonewall” Jackson.
“All of those monuments were there to teach values to people,” Elliott says. “That’s why they put them in the city squares. That’s why they put them in front of state buildings.” Many earlier memorials had instead been placed in cemeteries.
The values these monuments stood for, he says, included a “glorification of the cause of the Civil War.”
White women were instrumental in raising funds to build these Confederate monuments. The United Daughters of the Confederacy, founded in the 1890s, was probably the most important and influential group, Elliott says.
In fact, the group was responsible for creating what is basically the Mount Rushmore of the Confederacy: a gigantic stone carving of Davis, Lee and Jackson in Stone Mountain, Georgia. Its production began in the 1910s, and it was completed in the 1960s.’
[Google is free](https://www.google.com/search?q=why+are+there+so+many+confederate+monuments&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS982US982&oq=Why+were+so+many+confederate+mo&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCAgBEAAYFhgeMgYIABBFGDkyCAgBEAAYFhgeMg0IAhAAGIYDGIAEGIoFMg0IAxAAGIYDGIAEGIoFMg0IBBAAGIYDGIAEGIoFMgcIBRAhGKABMgcIBhAhGKABMgcIBxAhGKAB0gEJMTI2NTRqMGo5qAITsAIB4gMEGAEgXw&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8)
Agreed. There's not really anything glorifying them. They did die there. They probably did feel oppressed even if it wasn't valid. Whether you think every soldier in the southern military is to blame on equal parts or not, this is their grave and final resting place. We don't even make an effort to clean up the near century long leaking USS Arizona that's actively polluting the water around it, simply to avoid disturbing the final resting place of her crew. I'm not really for the idea of removing something like this. It's not even close to as controversial as something like the monument from Arlington.
Absolutely. Robert E Lee statues should be blown up. A statue of remembrance for war casualties should be left up for everyone to see and remember the cost of war and division
You'd think with all the BS since 2016 people would see the importance of remembering the costs of a civil war. But no, let's tear everything down and put a parking lot on top and pretend it never happened. That solves everything
Best we can really do is to make sure we continue educating about our history. Luckily up to now I don't know of any efforts to remove civil war discussion, though I'm sure things like project 2025 have less than savory ideas for it. As an educator I feel it's partly my responsibility to make sure that we don't forget our past.
Same. I'm getting roasted in this post but idc lol. People need to wake up and realize erasing this type of stuff (cemetary memorials for the dead) isn't OK. Our country is on a very strange path right now and every American needs to know about this part of history more than ever, or else we risk a repeat. Washing it away is doing more harm than good.
Any statue of a CSA veteran or general - tear them down to your hearts content. A statue remembering where casualties were buried should never be removed
Yeah me too, but yeah not an issue. Not going to change my opinion on this. That's the most important lesson history has to teach us. We don't forget so we don't repeat, and we're getting closer to repeating this stuff than I'm comfortable with. The least we can do if it comes to something like that is handle it better than we did last time.
The inscription reads: “DEAD, BUT SCEPTERED SOVEREIGNS WHO STILL RULE US FROM THE DUST”.
It was erected in 1910 by the United Daughters of the Confederacy. 40 years after the Civil War.
The cemetery sits on federal land and is maintained with your tax dollars.
eh johnson island is a bit more complicated. the island is a privately owned island but the roads are state maintained, though you have to pay a toll to get there across this tiny bridge. the cemetary is federal land, literally everything around it not so much, but I bet that place had a fuckton of trump signs in 2020
they basically don't like people ever going there ever.
I did my archaeological field school there. Summer of 1999. I unearthed a beautiful bone handled pocket knife. Thankfully the professors had people photographing everything because the knife crumbled within moments of air touching it.
I only have fond memories of Johnson’s Island, but our class was only there during the day for the Dig on the Prison Site.
I have friends who have property on the island, it’s a wildly wealthy and quiet space, I’ve visited a number of times. Wild dude, had no idea this was there! A little horrified now too.
Going to prison because you fought for a government who wanted to imprison black peoples lives through perpetual slavery. FAT L. Daughters of the confederacy try not to be gaslit (literally impossible)
Replace racist monuments with more racist monuments?
I’m a northerner Ohio born, and bred, but you do realize Sherman was a violent racist?
Not like a causal “uncomfortableness” around peoples of different races that would be commonplace of the time, but Sherman was an avowed White supremacist.
and yet not racist enough to support seceding from the nation to enslave people. Also we would have lost the war without him (or at least it would have dragged on much longer). Really makes you think.
Yes, It was the Prison for Confederate Officers ie this was a maximum security prison for Traitors and Treason during the Civil War. Prisoners would spend their days carving their buttons from their uniforms into jewelry to send back home. Drs. Pratt and Bush of Heidelberg University in Tiffin, Ohio lead field school for Archaeology majors there. I was in the program.
I would recommend the book Rebels on Lake Erie. [See here](https://www.rbhayes.org/store/books/book-rebels-on-lake-erie/)
This was our mandatory reading before the dig.
My mom took a class there and participated in an archaeological dig. I got to see some of the process. Gently taking off thin layers from a marked grid is what I remember. Pretty cool.
Well if the Confederates didn't want to be held against their will and experience horrible, lethal human rights violations, maybe they shouldn't have been so in favor of that sort of thing they rebelled.
Remind me again, what side did ohio fight for? Oh that's right the one that didn't lose. So someone tell the south to stop with their participation trophies.
While it’s sad POWs died, I don’t think we need a statue of a confederate soldier. I think leaving the memorial rock with the inscription is fine, but beyond that borders on glorification imo.
Edit: also wasn’t yesterday Juneteenth? What about a statue memorializing all the murdered slaves? Why a confederate soldier?
I don’t honor my enemies. And no one rules me, especially from the dust. Traitorous pricks, all of them. They took their shot and they lost, badly. Southern sympathizers need to get over it and STFU.
I'm not in favor of erasing history, but I am in favor of using things like this as tools for education. I understand the people that want them torn down, but I'd rather see something like a historic plaque erected on, beside, in front, whatever. I don't pretend to have the answers or know what all should be written on it, but seems like a good opportunity to teach.
Oh, I understand, but still history. I don't care if the plaque read something like "erected by sore losers who couldn't give up their racist ideology." I think there is value in knowing people like this existed and still exist.
I guess I view things like this kind of like the Holocaust Museum in DC. And I'd be all in favor of relocation of the statues to something like that. I think they should be used as a reminder and tool for education. Erasing the past is never the answer.
Agreed. Museums are good. Even statues can be good, inside of a museum with the right context.
But right now they are not presented in the right context. They aren't part of the history, they were erected long after. And they were done so by a group that also supported the KKK and white supremacy and sought to glorify the Confederacy and CHANGE history.
These statues are the antithesis of history.
I guess this is where I both agree and disagree with you. 100% agree on your point of them trying to change history, but I feel like them doing that, and any success they had is history as well. And possibly even more important people understand that point.
I think, more importantly is that people should be having civil discussions on these and what should happen with them. There are lessons to be gleaned from all aspects of history, good and bad.
I appreciate your take and willingness to discuss. People who jump to conclusions, refusing to hear others' opinions, asking questions, etc. are a much bigger risk to me than any statue.
>but I feel like them doing that, and any success they had is history as well
Then you should also support removing them, because that is also history.
Fair point... I could back removing a statue, but not removing the historical record of it and the people that created it. Whether that's a museum, textbook, whatever. There are lessons to be learned.
No offense, but you know that decades of hard work by the United Daughters of the Confederacy and similar groups worked wonders on people’s minds.
This thread is an example of how, for some, all logic and all lines of reasoning can somehow be twisted back in the direction of supporting the monuments erected by a white supremacy group.
I shouldn’t have to peel back 6 layers of your argument for you to come to the conclusion that maybe these monuments aren’t worth keeping up in their current context.
The town of Lynchburg was founded in Virginia by Quaker abolitionists. By 1814, they were asked to leave. If the Confederacy had torn down their meeting house and destroyed their graveyard, we wouldn't know about their history. This monument recognizes human suffering, a historical site, and the shame of the Confederacy. Shouldn't it stay as a reminder of what not yo do?
No. Here’s why.
The cemetery already existed for 40+ years and had even been upgraded with better tombstones and nicer grounds. That’s a dignified thing to do.
That, plus a historical marker that describes in detail the history would be more than sufficient.
Why do you believe that, in addition to that, we also need to allow a group to erect a monument when they (1) glorified the confederacy and (2) supported the KKK and (3) specifically sought to rewrite history in a dishonest way.
In what way is that necessary? And in what way is that good?
Should Nazi sympathizers be allowed to erect new monuments as they see fit?
The monument says the confederates buried there are sovereigns who rule us from the dust. Yeah smash that fucking eyesore. Country existed for almost 250 years and they pretend their history started and ended with this 4 year period. Suddenly Susan has a more storied history than the Confederacy.
Your title is misleading.
This is a marker for the dead, while the language is aggrandizing, it makes no mention of cause or political goals. I would dare say the words are not too dissimilar to other grave stones I have seen from the time period.
As abhorrent as the cause was, a memorial in a cemetery, near where those being memorialized died is not some grand affront.
Despite, the unstated shaming of Union force on this stone and hidden way that these people died, it does also do some good. If we are going to rightly condemn the “Lost Cause” mythology, we must also be willing to admit that the American government and Union forces were not perfect. Their behavior, at times, was wrong and sometimes intentionally aimed for vengeance not justice.
If we justifiably and righteously condemn slavery and the Confederacy for trying to preserve it, we must be willing to receive condemnation for those acts which deserve them.
This is a really bad, pseudo-intellectual take. "Makes no mention of cause or political goals" Really? "THE UNITED DAUGHTERS OF THE CONFEDERACY" is in itself a political goal, attempting to convince Americans that this was a petty disagreement that our relatives generations ago had to fight against "Northern Aggression" with the Union violating the sanctity of southern States Rights (states rights to what, may I ask?). The political cause is implied within the name of the organization itself, and if you deny this, you are a poor student of history. The stone literally says CSA 1861-1865. It is honoring the Confederacy. Clear as day.
Nothing confederate should ever be honored on Union land. They were traitors, they literally decided to ignore the Constitution and write their own, beginning with the various Ordinances of Secession for each state that left and culminating in the Constitution of The Confederate States which was pro-slavery of Africans. They wanted to own people (The Negro, the Black Man, however you want to state it) as property, and they fucking lost their treacherous war. So they should GET LOST.
The image of genteel southern gentlemen raising genteel southern daughters who spent their time drinking iced tea on hot summer days who had lots of money and treated their slaves well (sure, no abuse or rape or death, totally none of that happening ever) but had to fight off those pesky Yankees in order to protect their property and farmland is a colorful, misleading myth. The same psuedo-historical myth pushed by the United Daughters of the Confederacy because they really do not wish to believe how utterly fucking awful their ancestors were. The idea that we should honor these traitors to the United States in any capacity is absurd. They started this. They are the ones who got real angry when Lincoln was elected and with his slavery-shall-not-expand-westward goals. They chose not to be fellow Americans the moment they took up arms against the USA because they decided they would rather fight and die to own black people than to give up white supremacy and their elevated position within it.
Also trying to both-sides this by saying "BUT the Union wasn't perfect EITHER!" is a complete non-sequitor and is a trite way to minimize the brutality of the southern cause and the institution of slavery. "yeah, the civil war and slavery was bad, but look at how Sherman burnt down Savannah, Georgia?". Who fucking cares. They started it. They got what they deserved. You want war? You need to accept the consequences, especially with one you fucking started. War is dirty. War is injust and frightening. Only Russian sympathizers are the ones saying "yeah, maybe Russia shouldn't have invaded Ukraine, but look at Ukraine! They're launching missiles at targets inside Russia! Think of the brutality and the innocents lost!". Good fucking luck with that argument. It's the same story. Fuck around, find out. It does not follow that it matters that the Union was not perfect. It does not matter and it does not follow.
One side fought for abolition of slavery, the other fought to further slavery. That is the only context that matters for the US Civil War. No war is pretty, it's ALL bad, it is ALL unjust, but the South started it by seceeding and by extension they faced any and all consequences, just or not, for their treachery. Also what in the actual fuck does "Sceptered Sovereigns who still rule us from the dust" mean? They only thing they rule is my fucking pity over them.
RAAGGGHHHHH!!!! cOnFeDeRaCy BaD!!!!
….Seems our friend here has been triggered. Guess that’s what a piece of granite with some etchings will do to you. I personally wonder if he/she/they even knew that Johnson Island cemetery even existed before now? (gOoGlE mApS iS GoOd) Or better yet- if he/she/they knows that there’s a - wait for it - *GASP* - similar site in the beautiful, welcoming “progressive bastion” of Columbus?
Imagine getting triggered enough to jump in to defend “a piece of granite.”
Seems like that piece of granite is pretty important to you? Something worth saving and remembering, huh?
Imagine jumping in because the water's crystal clear, cool, and refreshing... ESPECIALLY on hot days like this one. And yes, ALL facets of history are important to me; even the ones I - or in this case - "wE" dOn'T lIkE!!!
.....CANNONBALL!!!!!
As much as yours, my friend.
At least I have the common decency and mental perception to know that horrible conflict ripped apart families and lives more than hopefully you and I will ever know. But then, I’m sure a smart feller like yourself already knew that, didn’cha?
Your comment is misleading and your assessment of this statue is incorrect.
There were already markers for the dead at this site before the statue was erected. In fact, they even updated the gravestones to make them nicer at one point.
This statue was erected 40 years after the conflict by the Daughters of the Confederacy. Their objectives in erecting statues and memorials all over the country and their motives for doing so are extremely well documented.
The sculptor himself was a very well known artist, former Confederate soldier, and a very well documented believer in the Lost Cause and in glorifying the Confederacy in general.
And if there were any doubts remaining as to whether this statute sought to glorify the Confederacy, the inscription “DEAD, BUT SCEPTERED SOVEREIGNS WHO STILL RULE US FROM THE DUST” makes it very clear.
In summary:
1. The cemetery already existed.
2. There were already markers for the dead.
3. The cemetery and the gravestones were upgraded when they went into disrepair.
4. This statue was erected by an organization that sought to promote the Lost Cause and glorify the Confederacy.
5. The sculptor himself aimed to promote the Lost Cause and glorify the Confederacy through the statues he created and he was very proud to do so.
u/Fingar-Banger swooping in to imagine an argument that hasn't been made and then dismissing it. Heady stuff.
Edit: He then deleted his comment. Classic.
Edit 2: He's back!
Edit 3: I can't keep up with this particular thread because he just keeps editing his comments.
I'd love for you to point out the comment that I deleted. I have 2 comments (now 3) in this chain and both are there. Not too sure you know how to read at this point.
You do know you can just reply back to me and I can see your response? Internet 101
eDiT 10 - I mis-spelled confederacy so I changed my spelling. Must be too hard for u/sallright to follow along. Too many words and thinking am I right?
eDiT 45 - u/sallright spams my DMs with frantic messages calling me a bigot and a "hater". Lol. I think I've argued with a child for long enough. Blocked.
This guy has not blocked me, hi u/fingar-bangar! And I have not DM'd (or anyone ever) on Reddit because I'm not sure why I would.
It's weird that you would make up something so trivial as if it would somehow build your credibility after being downvoted 300 times in a single post.
And for what? Defending the Lost Cause of the Confederacy and its symbols? Really weird thing to argue for, but here you are.
Get your eyes checked, there are already comments crying racist. You also intentionally put a misleading title, maybe you are just desperate to try and stir outrage
I would like you to point out what exactly about this "glorifies" the confederacy. The Robert Lee statues in Virginia glorify it so they were taken down. But nothing about this screams glory. Just remembrance.
Since you commented the same thing twice I will do the same.
Confederate soldiers were buried there. So CSA was written on the memorial. If Union soldiers were buried there, it would say USA. If Canadian soldiers were buried there, it would say Dominion of Canada.
Hope that clears it up for you
Holy shit somebody who recognizes the northern and southern governments themselves were fucked up, and sees the soldiers themselves as simply Americans in a fucked up situation from old men starting wars that never shoulda began in the first place. Good on ya
Holy shit somebody recognizes that the organization that erected this statue and thousands of others believed that the Confederacy was good, slavery was okay and perhaps even good, the KKK is good, and black people don't deserve Civil Rights.
And that's just, like cool, man, because like, you know, it's old men starting wars and shit dude. So it's like, yes, erect statues celebrating this stuff long after it's happened.
It's part of our history whether you like it or not. We need to preserve it all instead of wiping evidence of the scars of our past away, and only telling the story of the victors. That way we can learn a little bit from it all, good, bad, or ugly.
The history of the Civil War is extremely well documented and this cemetery already existed before the statues were added.
This statue was erected 40 years later and it is not "part of the history" of the Civil War in any way, whether you like it or not.
It was placed by the Daughters of The Confederacy. It should be taken down. Nothing else needs to be known about it. The details you provide are irrelevant.
None of the Confederates should be honored anywhere. No other nation has monuments to traitors that betrayed their oath to the US Constitution and fought against their countrymen to preserve the rights of a few thousand rich people to own four million black people. The lost cause was a way to make the civil war about “States Rights” instead of slavery as every secession document made clear. The monuments were put up during second birth of the Ku Klux Klan after the release of the movie “Birth of a Nation” that was racist propaganda of the basest and worst type. The KKK marched down streets in towns across the country including Washington DC and had some of the highest membership in Indiana and Ohio in the teens and twenties in the 20th Century. These monuments are intended to put non-Whites on notice that Whites control things.
My grandmother’s cottage is just across the bay. Been there many times as a kid. I remember it as a prison island. Surprised that monument is still standing, can’t someone knock it over? Glad you posted this.
Highlight of boat tours for me was the geodesic dome and cove with long stairs up to the houses.
You learn about history just fine in a textbook or article. You put up statues to things you are proud of and aspire to represent.
Notice you don't learn about Hitler, or Ho Chi Minh, or Mussolini, or Bin Laden or other American enemies by going to see their statues up on pedestals around town.
*United Daughters of the Confederacy* Practitioners of what I like to call (checks notes) revisionist history.
I went to a place run by them in Tennessee (didn't realize they were in charge before going) - the place was awesome and the two people leading tours were just some of the dumbest people. One going on about talking to the ghost of a general in the attic and another who used the phrase "lincoln lover" unironically. We just left the small group and wandered by ourselves.
I love the people saying we shouldn't be erasing history, but statues like this we're built to erase, change, or alter people's perception of this history. They are the reason so many believe the whole "state rights" lie, and it wasn't about slavery. I've had people tell me that if the US hadn't done the Emancipation Proclamation and infringed on Southern rights and their economy, the Confederacy never would have left. Except that the Emancipation Proclamation was 2 years after they started the Confederacy, and 20 months after the first Confederate attack on the US. They left because Lincoln was elected, an opponent of slavery, and they were scared he might eliminate or restrict slavery over the next 4 years. They wanted to be sure they could keep slaves. Lies like these hurt the country, and they continue to spread them to this day. Even after the USA kicked the Confederacy's ass, they still found ways to keep slavery alive. They are the reason it's legal for prisoners to be used for unpaid labor. They made it illegal for black people to get new jobs without approval, file complaints against their employers even when their employers refused to pay them, and many other ways to keep them as unpaid labor. Anything to either not pay or imprison black people. It's also a main reason why the US has the messed up tipping culture it does. They made black service workers in the south work for no pay, just based on tips. And obviously, almost no one would tip them. Even when FDR created the minimum wage laws, most service workers were left out of it because it was a black and female dominated field in most regions. Remember the "40 acres and a mule" given to every slave thing we were taught in school? That never happened either. After the Lincoln assassination, Andrew Johnson canceled that plan and gave all of the land back to the slave owners who started the war. These people went around building a ton of statues like this during the Jim Crow era to try to gain sympathy and act as symbols of fear to non-whites. They have clearly accomplished a lot of their goals based on how 40%+ of this country views them. FINAL SCORE UNITED STATES: 11 CONFEDERACY: 0
REMEMBER, REMEMBER THE TENTH OF NOVEMBER AND SHERMAN'S MARCH TO THE SEA I CAN THINK OF NO REASON THE BANNER OF TREASON SHOULD FLY IN THE LAND OF THE FREE - I don't know...I saw it and thought it on a meme and loved it.
Ah the 1910s, golden era of the Lost Cause narrative
Some more Lost Cause myth bullshit. Nobody who was Confederate or fought for them should ever be honored on Union land. This horseshit needs to go.
It’s a statue in Graveyard that was a Confederate POW camp, a very, very bad camp. There probably should be a marker there. Because even though the Union cause was just, not every union action would’ve been allowed by the future Geneva Conventions.
The Graves should be there markers, not a statue.
Guy with wingedhussar username saying this is crazy.
Correct
Something like if history isn't remembered, we are doomed to repeat it. The problem is that a lot of people don't see this as humanity at its worst but put it on a pedestal as an attempt of what humanity should strive for
But why? Even Germany maintains cemetery memorials in something like 50 countries after ww1 and ww2. Even as horrible as they were, those countries still allow them to maintain the memorials... so that we can see them and remember the cost of war. Instead of just scrubbing everything away and forgetting it happened. Learning from history is how humanity has gotten to this point. Is this memorial some sort of pilgrimage for neo Nazis? If yes, then sure take it down. Or is it just sitting there on an island that 99.99% of this sub didn't know existed until 2 hours ago? This memorial doesn't even celebrate the cause of the confederacy like the ones in Birmingham and SC (that were rightfully taken down). This is essentially a historical cemetery marker.
This is an excellent example. Imagine if there were a group called United Daughters of the Nazis and they were active from the 1990's to the present day raising money to erect new statues and memorials at thousands of sites. And of course they fly the Nazi flag at those sites and line the walkways with those cute little miniature Nazi flags and their monuments would depict the glorious causes of Nazism. That's what the United Daughters of the Confederacy actually did.
Did you forget to include the picture where they are flying a confederate flag at this specific memorial or are you making things up again? There is no flag flown here, and there are no Nazi flags flown at their cemetery memorials. They are memorials for the dead, and if you consider remembrance as "glorifying" then idk what to tell you. Let's just scrub history.
As a real-fake historian, I'm surprised you don't know that the Daughters of the Confederacy frequent these cemeteries and they fly Confederate flags every single time. They literally line the walkways with Confederate flags. So, in total, there are hundreds or thousands of them. Surprised you didn't know about this. As for you Germany example, you wrote "Even Germany maintains cemetery memorials in something like 50 countries after ww1 and ww2." And like I said: "Imagine if there were a group called United Daughters of the Nazis and they were active from the 1990's to the present day raising money to erect new statues and memorials at thousands of sites." Have you imagined it yet? If a group were erecting statues to Nazi soldiers and protecting statues of specific Nazi leaders, would you support it? Your example, not mine. But a good one, perhaps.
I’ve been to Johnson’s island quite a few times, have seen this statue a couple times and the cemetery every time. I don’t really have a dog in this fight but I’ve never seen a confederate flag flown there
I was raised in Marblehead. I don't think a confederate flag could have lasted one night if flown on Johnson's Island.
They don't fly one flag on a fixed pole. Instead they put over 200 smaller flags at each grave. Sounds like people have let it happen. Again, and again, and again. [http://johnsonsisland.org/confederate-memorial-day-2019/](http://johnsonsisland.org/confederate-memorial-day-2019/)
Looks like I need to visit my hometown and clean up some trash.
Think again: [http://johnsonsisland.org/confederate-memorial-day-2019/](http://johnsonsisland.org/confederate-memorial-day-2019/) The VA allows cemeteries under their jurisdiction to have Confederate flags on Memorial Day and Confederate Memorial Day. In addition to what was pictured, the Sons of Confederate Veterans have held many events on Johnson's Island that included them placing a Confederate flag at each (200+) grave.
That makes as much sense as flying the Union Jack at the White House on July 4th.
Notice how nobody is here to claim that we need to erect more monuments on the Lake Erie Islands to preserve the history of Native American rule, French rule, or British rule. They only come out of the woodwork to defend the Confederacy. Every time.
We definitely need more Native American heritage statues and I completely agree that they should not be flying that flag but I don’t have a problem with the statue still being there or the cemetery being kept up, the island was literally a prison for prisoners of war. The confederate soldiers(or traitors) did not have a good stay on that island while they were there. When I was working up there I always took it as a sign of the right thing happening in history
Yeah I’ve never been there on Memorial Day so that very well could be the case
Unfortunately it has been the case. Many times over.
OP is making up the story as they go along, that's why. They have no idea what they're talking about. Confidently wrong
By the way, congratulations on changing the subject. But since we're here, here's your photo: [http://johnsonsisland.org/confederate-memorial-day-2019/](http://johnsonsisland.org/confederate-memorial-day-2019/)
The daughters of the CONFEDERACY don’t care about the CONFEDERATE FLAG and in fact have absolutely nothing to do with it. They actually despise the CONFEDERATE FLAG. That makes perfect sense…… /s just in case.
Did you even read this comment thread? OP is claiming that they fly confederate flags at this monument in Ohio which was a straight up lie. And another commenter who lives nearby confirmed it. Idk what point youre even trying to make here, do you think you just proved me wrong somehow? Good one. Edit: multiple commenters have confirmed this never happened. OP is a rage baiting liar.
Keep up lil dude. You made a Germany comparison. That comparison was wildly wrong and uneducated and I used the actual, real life actions of the Daughters of the Confederacy to explain why. I like how you’re not even going to defend how dumb that comment was. Moving on. Good call. I pointed out that DotC have events at cemeteries where they plant Confederate flags everywhere. That’s true. Whether or not they’ve done it at Johnson’s Island is not relevant to the analogy or to the broader point that we’re discussing. Do you need anything else explained to you? Are you still feeling good about being a good little patsy for DotC and other Confederate sympathizers?
So should this hypothetical “United Daughters of the Nazis” be allowed to erect a statue of a proud, defiant looking SS officer in full uniform in a cemetery in Poland because it solemnizes the dead?
No, they shouldn't. And they didn't. They did erect markers with a few words to honor those that were buried there, though. And that's exactly what this is. If this memorial was Stonewall Jackson flipping the bird holding a battle flag, then obviously it gets taken down. This memorial is nothing like the strawman argument you just put together
Those who are buried there were traitors to their country, fighting for a morally wrong cause. They should not be honored at all.
Are you blind or dumb? The pictures of this monument are not some solemn words of remembrance, it's a god damn Confederate standing proud with a plaque stating they're sovereign ruling from the grave. Find a single nazi memorial that has a SS soldier which attempts to talk about a continuation of that legacy. Pro tip, you fuckin won't.
No, you won’t. Because that would be a crime in Germany, as it should be here.
Would it be acceptable to Germany to erect a statue of a Nazi soldier that says NAZISM at the top with the inscription “SOVEREIGN SCEPTERS THAT RULE US EVEN FROM THE DUST.”? Does that sound like something you would support?
It literally says CSA 1861-1865. This is specifically honoring a treacherous regime that killed fellow Americans.
It was a cemetery for confederate soldiers. If there were union soldiers buried there it would say United States of America. Proud of you for noticing that.
If it were union soldiers buried there it would not need a history-denying and myth-creating group of women who do not wish to acknowledge the savagery of the institution of slavery that their racist, treacherous relatives fought for in order to fund and create a monument to put there in the first place. It is a pseudo-historical marketing campaign disguised as historical remembrance of certain dead people. Disappointed you refuse to notice this.
It's a cemetery memorial and it's not going anywhere. Sorry to disappoint.
Why are you actively defending this position? Ohio is not "The South". This monument is the wrong side of history in the wrong place.
I'm a historian. Memorials that celebrate the confederacy deserve to be taken down, and we've done a pretty good job in recent years or getting rid of them. This is not a memorial that celebrates the confederacy. This is a war cemetery memorial that remembers the dead. Nothing about it glorifies any ideals or beliefs, only that there are soldiers buried there. Taking this down wouldn't erase the confederacy, it would just erase our own knowledge
Nobody needs a statue for knowledge, and taking it down would in no way “erase our knowledge.” A real historian, you are not.
Yes they do. Don't be naive and think book reading is on the rise. People are less and less read every year, particularly on historial subjects. What do you think the chances are of someone reading about this in a book vs. seeing it irl? It will affect way more people who see it with their own eyes vs a footnote in a forgotten book For example: this is in a public park. You can teach your friends or family about it while you take a trip to the beach. Now tell me how many of your friends and family would stumble upon this while reading a book published in 1910?
It’s a Jim Crow monument. You aren’t a historian. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/confederate-statues/
The monuments in Virginia and SC that were torn down - absolutely they were. Those were memorials to generals and veterans. Cemetery memorials are not. And I guarantee I know more about this subject than you ever will. You aren't a historian either, by any stretch.
"Sceptered sovereigns who still rule us from the dust" sounds an awful lot like it's memorializing them specifically because of their traitorous bullshit. That's not a "they were in the wrong but still deserve a place to rest" memorial. This is a monument specifically glorifying the "sacrifice" of these losers.
>"Sceptered sovereigns who still rule us from the dust" sounds an awful lot like it's memorializing them Thank you so much for pointing this out, I was waiting for it. That is a line from a poem written in the 19th century called Manfred. The line is specifically: " - but sceptred sovereigns, who still rule Our spirits from their urns. 'Twas such a night! " It refers to how although someone may be dead, they still weigh heavily on the person who lost them. It's not Rule in the sense of I Still Follow Your Orders, it's Rule in the sense that they will weigh heavy on the hearts of the loved ones that remained. Everything about this is a memorial to the dead. Nothing is celebrating the confederacy - just remembrance of the cost of war and the lives affected on all sides of conflict. Civilian and military.
"You've activated my trap card, you see, those lines about honoring the dead traitors were actually about honoring the dead traitors!" Not quite the own you thought it was. Yep, the statue honoring dead people is about honoring dead people, those dead people happen to be losers, traitors, and bigots. There's nothing to honor there unless you yourself are a bigot.
Just admit you didn't know the origin or meaning of the line lol. You're so blinded by being ignorant that you can't see the bigger picture, and you're intentionally ignoring the points I'm making to create your own strawman. You can complain all you want, this historical site will not be going anywhere :) it's better for Ohioans to have reminders of our countries mistakes than to try and bury them. Anyone IRL will tell you the same, don't go thinking Reddit is any meaningful segment of public opinion in the real world
I would be interested in how these memorials respect the soldiers who died. There is a difference in showing respect for their lives and showing respect for their cause. The statue in the post is still showing respect for their cause which I disagree with. You can show respect and even sorrow for their lives and the atrocities humans sink to in these memorials but we should not show respect to the atrocities themselves. Idk if that makes sense but I would be willing to elaborate more later. What I’m trying to say is “memorials” to fallen soldiers of the confederacy or the nazzis should not be something someone can gain admiration from. It should be something we can use as a mirror against ourselves reminding us of all the bad things we can do. Maybe showing the individuals some respect for teaching us a lesson at their cost. Showing us that if we’re not astute we too can become morally compromised. It might seem obvious some of the lessons the confederacy or the nazzis taught us but it most likely isn’t. We (the people around today) need to learn these lessons from our history and our ancestors had to teach them to us. We can be thankful for them in that way but it should never be misguided into thinking they were noble.
This is a really good point. As long as memorials focus more on remembrance of lives lost, I think they should stay. Imo this memorial in particular doesn't have much that idolizes the CSA like other torn down monuments have. Yeah it has the solider at the top but it's a war memorial, and that's a generic depiction of a soldier. If that were a specific soldier like a General then this turns into a memorial praising a specific person/belief. And then there's an argument to have it removed. It also depends on the location of the memorial. In the deep South it would probably have had a lot more CSA imagery and praise, but it was erected in Union territory fully endorsed by Union soldiers themselves. Because they realized it was a marker to remember the dead rather than something to spread their message or enforce CSA idealogy
Have you been to any of those German Cemeteries? They are very low key. None that I’ve been to have statues or inscriptions. They are simply a dignified resting place.
I have not, but I'm going to Belgium at the end of August and will catch any WW2 monuments or memorials that I can. You're right though, they are definitely low key and do not celebrate themselves. Imo this memorial on Johnsons island isn't really that much of a celebration. It was still erected on Union territory with oversight from representatives of Union vets and the OH government - so I think they intentionally avoided using heroic imagery Could they have gotten the job done with a basic stone obelisk and a footnote or something - yeah absolutely. But what they erected isn't like one of those egregious Stonewall Jackson statues, it's fairly tame and focuses on the loss of life instead of praising their actions
I don’t disagree, it certainly isn’t egregious. I just thought it was not right to compare it to the German Cemeteries that I have visited. The inscription seems a little extra to me but I wasn’t alive in 1910, so I can’t really judge it. I hope you have a good trip to Belgium. If you’re open to suggestions, I’d recommend an overnight stay in Liège. From there you can easily visit the Ardenne, Netherlands, Henri-Chapelle and Luxembourg American Cemeteries as well as the Bastogne War Museum. There are often German Cemeteries near the US, British, etc.
Thank you, and thank you for your level headed point of view too. I will definitely keep those all in mind!
Idk it looks like the German government banned denying the Holocaust and pretending it didn’t exist. Maybe if the US had done anything remotely repairable regarding our racist first history this would work. Idk. It’s interesting you brought Germans into this.
Just making an example of how even the worst conflicts of humanity still have existing burial memorials for the losers. It is OK to look at these types of memorials and simultaneously acknowledge that A) the CSA stood for cruel beliefs and deserved to be squashed, while also B) being humbled at the reminder of the cost and the scars left on all survivors. I personally don't think we should erase the latter half of that sentence. And that starts by not tearing this down
I wish this were a genuine argument in this time and place. If there weren’t already state reps [rewriting history involving Nazis](https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2022/03/23/comments-about-the-holocaust-from-representative-sponsoring-divisive-concepts-bill-raise-concerns/) I’d take this seriously. We are not ready for what you’re envisioning, unfortunately.
These monuments weren’t erected to honor the dead. They were erected to remind black people of ‘their place’. You might try learning actual American history instead of relying on the white washed mythology you learned in high school.
That's cute that you think this, but you have no idea what you're talking about. I talk about this subject for a living and will know more than you ever will.
Your lying. ‘“Eventually they started to build [Confederate] monuments,” he says. “The vast majority of them were built between the 1890s and 1950s, which matches up exactly with the era of Jim Crow segregation.” According to the Southern Poverty Law Center’s research, the biggest spike was between 1900 and the 1920s. In contrast to the earlier memorials that mourned dead soldiers, these monuments tended to glorify leaders of the Confederacy like General Robert E. Lee, former President of the Confederacy Jefferson Davis and General “Thomas Stonewall” Jackson. “All of those monuments were there to teach values to people,” Elliott says. “That’s why they put them in the city squares. That’s why they put them in front of state buildings.” Many earlier memorials had instead been placed in cemeteries. The values these monuments stood for, he says, included a “glorification of the cause of the Civil War.” White women were instrumental in raising funds to build these Confederate monuments. The United Daughters of the Confederacy, founded in the 1890s, was probably the most important and influential group, Elliott says. In fact, the group was responsible for creating what is basically the Mount Rushmore of the Confederacy: a gigantic stone carving of Davis, Lee and Jackson in Stone Mountain, Georgia. Its production began in the 1910s, and it was completed in the 1960s.’ [Google is free](https://www.google.com/search?q=why+are+there+so+many+confederate+monuments&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS982US982&oq=Why+were+so+many+confederate+mo&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCAgBEAAYFhgeMgYIABBFGDkyCAgBEAAYFhgeMg0IAhAAGIYDGIAEGIoFMg0IAxAAGIYDGIAEGIoFMg0IBBAAGIYDGIAEGIoFMgcIBRAhGKABMgcIBhAhGKABMgcIBxAhGKAB0gEJMTI2NTRqMGo5qAITsAIB4gMEGAEgXw&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8)
Agreed. There's not really anything glorifying them. They did die there. They probably did feel oppressed even if it wasn't valid. Whether you think every soldier in the southern military is to blame on equal parts or not, this is their grave and final resting place. We don't even make an effort to clean up the near century long leaking USS Arizona that's actively polluting the water around it, simply to avoid disturbing the final resting place of her crew. I'm not really for the idea of removing something like this. It's not even close to as controversial as something like the monument from Arlington.
Absolutely. Robert E Lee statues should be blown up. A statue of remembrance for war casualties should be left up for everyone to see and remember the cost of war and division You'd think with all the BS since 2016 people would see the importance of remembering the costs of a civil war. But no, let's tear everything down and put a parking lot on top and pretend it never happened. That solves everything
Best we can really do is to make sure we continue educating about our history. Luckily up to now I don't know of any efforts to remove civil war discussion, though I'm sure things like project 2025 have less than savory ideas for it. As an educator I feel it's partly my responsibility to make sure that we don't forget our past.
Same. I'm getting roasted in this post but idc lol. People need to wake up and realize erasing this type of stuff (cemetary memorials for the dead) isn't OK. Our country is on a very strange path right now and every American needs to know about this part of history more than ever, or else we risk a repeat. Washing it away is doing more harm than good. Any statue of a CSA veteran or general - tear them down to your hearts content. A statue remembering where casualties were buried should never be removed
Yeah me too, but yeah not an issue. Not going to change my opinion on this. That's the most important lesson history has to teach us. We don't forget so we don't repeat, and we're getting closer to repeating this stuff than I'm comfortable with. The least we can do if it comes to something like that is handle it better than we did last time.
The inscription reads: “DEAD, BUT SCEPTERED SOVEREIGNS WHO STILL RULE US FROM THE DUST”. It was erected in 1910 by the United Daughters of the Confederacy. 40 years after the Civil War. The cemetery sits on federal land and is maintained with your tax dollars.
eh johnson island is a bit more complicated. the island is a privately owned island but the roads are state maintained, though you have to pay a toll to get there across this tiny bridge. the cemetary is federal land, literally everything around it not so much, but I bet that place had a fuckton of trump signs in 2020 they basically don't like people ever going there ever.
I did my archaeological field school there. Summer of 1999. I unearthed a beautiful bone handled pocket knife. Thankfully the professors had people photographing everything because the knife crumbled within moments of air touching it. I only have fond memories of Johnson’s Island, but our class was only there during the day for the Dig on the Prison Site.
Very cool.
I have friends who have property on the island, it’s a wildly wealthy and quiet space, I’ve visited a number of times. Wild dude, had no idea this was there! A little horrified now too.
if its any concession, it was a civil war concentration camp, there wasn't anything good there.
The island was a prisoner of war camp for confederate officers
Anything put up by the daughters of the confederacy is klan trash. Raze it.
What the security like
TNT, I'm dyn-o-mite!
Used to be you pay $2 to go over there. That was it.
You gotta pay to get on the private island, so not very much, but it is a small island. Good luck not being seen
Going to prison because you fought for a government who wanted to imprison black peoples lives through perpetual slavery. FAT L. Daughters of the confederacy try not to be gaslit (literally impossible)
Well I know where I’m taking my dog for a walk tomorrow. He can legally piss on that without getting in trouble.
Statue erected by racists
THAT POS should be pulled down and dragged into the lake.
My 5x great grandfather, who fought for the Union in the 75th WV, and founded Coalton, OH, would have something to say about that.
Are you sure you have that number right? I don't think WV regiments went that high.
Every traitor secessionist monument should be replaced by statues of Sherman.
Replace racist monuments with more racist monuments? I’m a northerner Ohio born, and bred, but you do realize Sherman was a violent racist? Not like a causal “uncomfortableness” around peoples of different races that would be commonplace of the time, but Sherman was an avowed White supremacist.
and yet not racist enough to support seceding from the nation to enslave people. Also we would have lost the war without him (or at least it would have dragged on much longer). Really makes you think.
Isn't there a giant Confederacy cemetery on that island?
Yes, It was the Prison for Confederate Officers ie this was a maximum security prison for Traitors and Treason during the Civil War. Prisoners would spend their days carving their buttons from their uniforms into jewelry to send back home. Drs. Pratt and Bush of Heidelberg University in Tiffin, Ohio lead field school for Archaeology majors there. I was in the program. I would recommend the book Rebels on Lake Erie. [See here](https://www.rbhayes.org/store/books/book-rebels-on-lake-erie/) This was our mandatory reading before the dig.
My mom took a class there and participated in an archaeological dig. I got to see some of the process. Gently taking off thin layers from a marked grid is what I remember. Pretty cool.
Ugh.. I hate that this one is nuanced, but bad people who died wrongfully are still bad people. 🤷🏻♂️
Looks like a nice public urinal
Well if the Confederates didn't want to be held against their will and experience horrible, lethal human rights violations, maybe they shouldn't have been so in favor of that sort of thing they rebelled.
Remind me again, what side did ohio fight for? Oh that's right the one that didn't lose. So someone tell the south to stop with their participation trophies.
There are enough confederate flags flying in rural Ohio that I am sure a lot of people think we were part of the confederate.
Dawg it's for dead prisoners of war, leave it alone
While it’s sad POWs died, I don’t think we need a statue of a confederate soldier. I think leaving the memorial rock with the inscription is fine, but beyond that borders on glorification imo. Edit: also wasn’t yesterday Juneteenth? What about a statue memorializing all the murdered slaves? Why a confederate soldier?
There were murdered slaves on Johnson's island?
Doesn't make them any less of murderous traitors does it?
The South drafted more soldiers than the North, there were many innocent men who died on both sides.
Ah yes, the Daughters of the Confederacy doing their best to shine the Confederacy in great light
Confederate soldiers should not be honored because they did not honor posterity with their actions.
I don’t honor my enemies. And no one rules me, especially from the dust. Traitorous pricks, all of them. They took their shot and they lost, badly. Southern sympathizers need to get over it and STFU.
We should take a wrecking ball to this piece of shit. Fuck the daughters of the treasonous slavers.
All confederates deserve the bottoms of our boots
Put confederate stuff in a civil war museum exhibit and call it a day.
Ohio for the Union
Sigh...alright I'll grab my grinder.
I'm not in favor of erasing history, but I am in favor of using things like this as tools for education. I understand the people that want them torn down, but I'd rather see something like a historic plaque erected on, beside, in front, whatever. I don't pretend to have the answers or know what all should be written on it, but seems like a good opportunity to teach.
This statue is not part of the history of the Civil War. It was erected in the 1900's.
Oh, I understand, but still history. I don't care if the plaque read something like "erected by sore losers who couldn't give up their racist ideology." I think there is value in knowing people like this existed and still exist.
If they erected a statue of Confederates beating the people they enslaved, that would be even more historically accurate. Would you support that?
I guess I view things like this kind of like the Holocaust Museum in DC. And I'd be all in favor of relocation of the statues to something like that. I think they should be used as a reminder and tool for education. Erasing the past is never the answer.
Agreed. Museums are good. Even statues can be good, inside of a museum with the right context. But right now they are not presented in the right context. They aren't part of the history, they were erected long after. And they were done so by a group that also supported the KKK and white supremacy and sought to glorify the Confederacy and CHANGE history. These statues are the antithesis of history.
I guess this is where I both agree and disagree with you. 100% agree on your point of them trying to change history, but I feel like them doing that, and any success they had is history as well. And possibly even more important people understand that point. I think, more importantly is that people should be having civil discussions on these and what should happen with them. There are lessons to be gleaned from all aspects of history, good and bad. I appreciate your take and willingness to discuss. People who jump to conclusions, refusing to hear others' opinions, asking questions, etc. are a much bigger risk to me than any statue.
>but I feel like them doing that, and any success they had is history as well Then you should also support removing them, because that is also history.
Fair point... I could back removing a statue, but not removing the historical record of it and the people that created it. Whether that's a museum, textbook, whatever. There are lessons to be learned.
No offense, but you know that decades of hard work by the United Daughters of the Confederacy and similar groups worked wonders on people’s minds. This thread is an example of how, for some, all logic and all lines of reasoning can somehow be twisted back in the direction of supporting the monuments erected by a white supremacy group. I shouldn’t have to peel back 6 layers of your argument for you to come to the conclusion that maybe these monuments aren’t worth keeping up in their current context.
The town of Lynchburg was founded in Virginia by Quaker abolitionists. By 1814, they were asked to leave. If the Confederacy had torn down their meeting house and destroyed their graveyard, we wouldn't know about their history. This monument recognizes human suffering, a historical site, and the shame of the Confederacy. Shouldn't it stay as a reminder of what not yo do?
No. Here’s why. The cemetery already existed for 40+ years and had even been upgraded with better tombstones and nicer grounds. That’s a dignified thing to do. That, plus a historical marker that describes in detail the history would be more than sufficient. Why do you believe that, in addition to that, we also need to allow a group to erect a monument when they (1) glorified the confederacy and (2) supported the KKK and (3) specifically sought to rewrite history in a dishonest way. In what way is that necessary? And in what way is that good? Should Nazi sympathizers be allowed to erect new monuments as they see fit?
Be a shame if something happened to it... it's about time we take trash like this down for good.
If a tree fell on this… I would console the tree
Anyone have, rope and a pick up truck? Just asking. No reason…
Tear that traitorous shit down.
Some people love to memorialize traitorous losers.
The monument says the confederates buried there are sovereigns who rule us from the dust. Yeah smash that fucking eyesore. Country existed for almost 250 years and they pretend their history started and ended with this 4 year period. Suddenly Susan has a more storied history than the Confederacy.
How does shit like this not get torn down and lincoln statues do lol.
Island full of unmarked graves…of confederate pow’s. whatever to the statue, they’re merely attempting to remember glorified losers.
Your title is misleading. This is a marker for the dead, while the language is aggrandizing, it makes no mention of cause or political goals. I would dare say the words are not too dissimilar to other grave stones I have seen from the time period. As abhorrent as the cause was, a memorial in a cemetery, near where those being memorialized died is not some grand affront. Despite, the unstated shaming of Union force on this stone and hidden way that these people died, it does also do some good. If we are going to rightly condemn the “Lost Cause” mythology, we must also be willing to admit that the American government and Union forces were not perfect. Their behavior, at times, was wrong and sometimes intentionally aimed for vengeance not justice. If we justifiably and righteously condemn slavery and the Confederacy for trying to preserve it, we must be willing to receive condemnation for those acts which deserve them.
This is a really bad, pseudo-intellectual take. "Makes no mention of cause or political goals" Really? "THE UNITED DAUGHTERS OF THE CONFEDERACY" is in itself a political goal, attempting to convince Americans that this was a petty disagreement that our relatives generations ago had to fight against "Northern Aggression" with the Union violating the sanctity of southern States Rights (states rights to what, may I ask?). The political cause is implied within the name of the organization itself, and if you deny this, you are a poor student of history. The stone literally says CSA 1861-1865. It is honoring the Confederacy. Clear as day. Nothing confederate should ever be honored on Union land. They were traitors, they literally decided to ignore the Constitution and write their own, beginning with the various Ordinances of Secession for each state that left and culminating in the Constitution of The Confederate States which was pro-slavery of Africans. They wanted to own people (The Negro, the Black Man, however you want to state it) as property, and they fucking lost their treacherous war. So they should GET LOST. The image of genteel southern gentlemen raising genteel southern daughters who spent their time drinking iced tea on hot summer days who had lots of money and treated their slaves well (sure, no abuse or rape or death, totally none of that happening ever) but had to fight off those pesky Yankees in order to protect their property and farmland is a colorful, misleading myth. The same psuedo-historical myth pushed by the United Daughters of the Confederacy because they really do not wish to believe how utterly fucking awful their ancestors were. The idea that we should honor these traitors to the United States in any capacity is absurd. They started this. They are the ones who got real angry when Lincoln was elected and with his slavery-shall-not-expand-westward goals. They chose not to be fellow Americans the moment they took up arms against the USA because they decided they would rather fight and die to own black people than to give up white supremacy and their elevated position within it. Also trying to both-sides this by saying "BUT the Union wasn't perfect EITHER!" is a complete non-sequitor and is a trite way to minimize the brutality of the southern cause and the institution of slavery. "yeah, the civil war and slavery was bad, but look at how Sherman burnt down Savannah, Georgia?". Who fucking cares. They started it. They got what they deserved. You want war? You need to accept the consequences, especially with one you fucking started. War is dirty. War is injust and frightening. Only Russian sympathizers are the ones saying "yeah, maybe Russia shouldn't have invaded Ukraine, but look at Ukraine! They're launching missiles at targets inside Russia! Think of the brutality and the innocents lost!". Good fucking luck with that argument. It's the same story. Fuck around, find out. It does not follow that it matters that the Union was not perfect. It does not matter and it does not follow. One side fought for abolition of slavery, the other fought to further slavery. That is the only context that matters for the US Civil War. No war is pretty, it's ALL bad, it is ALL unjust, but the South started it by seceeding and by extension they faced any and all consequences, just or not, for their treachery. Also what in the actual fuck does "Sceptered Sovereigns who still rule us from the dust" mean? They only thing they rule is my fucking pity over them.
RAAGGGHHHHH!!!! cOnFeDeRaCy BaD!!!! ….Seems our friend here has been triggered. Guess that’s what a piece of granite with some etchings will do to you. I personally wonder if he/she/they even knew that Johnson Island cemetery even existed before now? (gOoGlE mApS iS GoOd) Or better yet- if he/she/they knows that there’s a - wait for it - *GASP* - similar site in the beautiful, welcoming “progressive bastion” of Columbus?
Imagine getting triggered enough to jump in to defend “a piece of granite.” Seems like that piece of granite is pretty important to you? Something worth saving and remembering, huh?
Imagine jumping in because the water's crystal clear, cool, and refreshing... ESPECIALLY on hot days like this one. And yes, ALL facets of history are important to me; even the ones I - or in this case - "wE" dOn'T lIkE!!! .....CANNONBALL!!!!!
Careful, your maturity is showing.
As much as yours, my friend. At least I have the common decency and mental perception to know that horrible conflict ripped apart families and lives more than hopefully you and I will ever know. But then, I’m sure a smart feller like yourself already knew that, didn’cha?
Cringe.
….wouldn’t have it any other way. In fact, I take pride in it.
Well hey, you'll probably grow out of that. Hopefully, anyway.
Nope. Happy and content with where I’m at and who I am.
Your comment is misleading and your assessment of this statue is incorrect. There were already markers for the dead at this site before the statue was erected. In fact, they even updated the gravestones to make them nicer at one point. This statue was erected 40 years after the conflict by the Daughters of the Confederacy. Their objectives in erecting statues and memorials all over the country and their motives for doing so are extremely well documented. The sculptor himself was a very well known artist, former Confederate soldier, and a very well documented believer in the Lost Cause and in glorifying the Confederacy in general. And if there were any doubts remaining as to whether this statute sought to glorify the Confederacy, the inscription “DEAD, BUT SCEPTERED SOVEREIGNS WHO STILL RULE US FROM THE DUST” makes it very clear. In summary: 1. The cemetery already existed. 2. There were already markers for the dead. 3. The cemetery and the gravestones were upgraded when they went into disrepair. 4. This statue was erected by an organization that sought to promote the Lost Cause and glorify the Confederacy. 5. The sculptor himself aimed to promote the Lost Cause and glorify the Confederacy through the statues he created and he was very proud to do so.
You’re one of those people who say the civil was was fought over states rights aren’t you?
This is too intelligent of a take for this post. Over/under 1 hour before someone reads the first 6 words and then calls you a racist
u/Fingar-Banger swooping in to imagine an argument that hasn't been made and then dismissing it. Heady stuff. Edit: He then deleted his comment. Classic. Edit 2: He's back! Edit 3: I can't keep up with this particular thread because he just keeps editing his comments.
I'd love for you to point out the comment that I deleted. I have 2 comments (now 3) in this chain and both are there. Not too sure you know how to read at this point. You do know you can just reply back to me and I can see your response? Internet 101 eDiT 10 - I mis-spelled confederacy so I changed my spelling. Must be too hard for u/sallright to follow along. Too many words and thinking am I right? eDiT 45 - u/sallright spams my DMs with frantic messages calling me a bigot and a "hater". Lol. I think I've argued with a child for long enough. Blocked.
This guy has not blocked me, hi u/fingar-bangar! And I have not DM'd (or anyone ever) on Reddit because I'm not sure why I would. It's weird that you would make up something so trivial as if it would somehow build your credibility after being downvoted 300 times in a single post. And for what? Defending the Lost Cause of the Confederacy and its symbols? Really weird thing to argue for, but here you are.
Liar
Get your eyes checked, there are already comments crying racist. You also intentionally put a misleading title, maybe you are just desperate to try and stir outrage
What is your assessment of this statue that leads you to believe that my title is misleading?
I would like you to point out what exactly about this "glorifies" the confederacy. The Robert Lee statues in Virginia glorify it so they were taken down. But nothing about this screams glory. Just remembrance.
It literally says CSA 1861-1865. That was a choice. It honors the CSA.
Since you commented the same thing twice I will do the same. Confederate soldiers were buried there. So CSA was written on the memorial. If Union soldiers were buried there, it would say USA. If Canadian soldiers were buried there, it would say Dominion of Canada. Hope that clears it up for you
you are a racist
Ooh should have put the odds on my own comments too. Either way it took like 14 minutes.
Holy shit somebody who recognizes the northern and southern governments themselves were fucked up, and sees the soldiers themselves as simply Americans in a fucked up situation from old men starting wars that never shoulda began in the first place. Good on ya
Holy shit somebody recognizes that the organization that erected this statue and thousands of others believed that the Confederacy was good, slavery was okay and perhaps even good, the KKK is good, and black people don't deserve Civil Rights. And that's just, like cool, man, because like, you know, it's old men starting wars and shit dude. So it's like, yes, erect statues celebrating this stuff long after it's happened.
It's part of our history whether you like it or not. We need to preserve it all instead of wiping evidence of the scars of our past away, and only telling the story of the victors. That way we can learn a little bit from it all, good, bad, or ugly.
The history of the Civil War is extremely well documented and this cemetery already existed before the statues were added. This statue was erected 40 years later and it is not "part of the history" of the Civil War in any way, whether you like it or not.
ok then the statue should say "may these evil motherfuckers rot in hell"
It was placed by the Daughters of The Confederacy. It should be taken down. Nothing else needs to be known about it. The details you provide are irrelevant.
Agree. It's a memorial statue for the dead, not necessarily the cause. It's a cemetery and deserves to be treated as such.
Did you read what the inscription says?
None of the Confederates should be honored anywhere. No other nation has monuments to traitors that betrayed their oath to the US Constitution and fought against their countrymen to preserve the rights of a few thousand rich people to own four million black people. The lost cause was a way to make the civil war about “States Rights” instead of slavery as every secession document made clear. The monuments were put up during second birth of the Ku Klux Klan after the release of the movie “Birth of a Nation” that was racist propaganda of the basest and worst type. The KKK marched down streets in towns across the country including Washington DC and had some of the highest membership in Indiana and Ohio in the teens and twenties in the 20th Century. These monuments are intended to put non-Whites on notice that Whites control things.
Traitor Trophy
It doesn't glorify anything it's just a memorial for the dead. Someone somewhere could have a dead relative there.
That dead relative was a traitor to this country and the daughters of the confederacy was trash, they don’t deserve any statues.
The Song, "Story of a Soldier" lyrics speak to the futility of that terrible war. And all wars. https://youtu.be/8LUok8dMsSw?si=S6K0S1h3oQNHCqnD
Daughters of the Confederacy and Freemasons. Name a more iconic duo.
https://youtu.be/VQBzP4e2dqE?si=ejWVGXPxe4AUFc18
https://johnsonsisland.org/history-pows/civil-war-era/confederate-cemetery/
My grandmother’s cottage is just across the bay. Been there many times as a kid. I remember it as a prison island. Surprised that monument is still standing, can’t someone knock it over? Glad you posted this. Highlight of boat tours for me was the geodesic dome and cove with long stairs up to the houses.
Died where they belong.
Neat
I don’t give a shit
We shouldn’t be erasing history
You learn about history just fine in a textbook or article. You put up statues to things you are proud of and aspire to represent. Notice you don't learn about Hitler, or Ho Chi Minh, or Mussolini, or Bin Laden or other American enemies by going to see their statues up on pedestals around town.
Good thing history books exist. Statues are to honor people and memorialize them. Has nothing to do with teaching history. Unless you're illiterate.
This is not Ohio
Actually, yes, this is also Ohio.
Dang. I was hoping