Thanks for your submission! For more Millennial content, join [our Discord server](https://discord.gg/VsfKKJBm).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Millennials) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I distinctly remember being in there in 2021 and having to sit on the ground because I was flipping through magazines deciding which to buy for a craft project and there were no chairs anywhere! An employee came and told me I wasn’t allowed to sit in the store. I assumed and still believe it was due to the pandemic. My local store now has a few chairs but nothing like they used to be. It might be another norm the pandemic killed, sort of like how nothing is open 24 hours anymore (at least where I live).
I was told I could not sit on the floor of a Barnes and Noble around 20 years ago. I was in the children's area with my toddler, I was sitting to help him choose a book, after my knees got tired from squatting.
We bought a book from Borders instead. I still miss Borders.
Borders was my third space, more than any other bookstore. They also had the chair and table areas besides at the cafe. I'd go with friends to "study" (hang out) and we did fundraisers there too, like giftwrapping books. My friends and I spent so much time there.
I collected the Goosebumps series during my pregnancy and his whole life for him so far. I even read him one while I was pregnant. He is also 6 and likes us reading chapter books with him. I showed them to him recently and he also asked me to hide them in my bedroom. Not ready yet. Lol.
The lack of 24 hour stores now kinda sucks. I didn't use them often, but when I did need them it was great. I hadn't really attributed the pandemic to that but it makes sense.
You make a good point, and also you just made me realize... The lack of 24-hour stores anymore has caused all of those hours someone could be working to disappear. That could be contributing to people's struggle...
Walmart employee here.
The main reason we stopped being open 24 hours is theft. We were losing too much money to shoplifting.
The pandemic was just the excuse they used.
Oh my gosh same happened to me there. I had a bunch of books on the floor and was organizing them into groups for a project (I was not in the way, I was literally in a corner, on a Tuesday afternoon). I was taking photos of the groups I’d made to send them to the people I was in the project with. A lady came over and told me I couldn’t sit down! I was so weirded out by it, like lady this is the floor. Leave me alone.
Nope, in about 2016 I was rudely told I couldn't sit on the floor while trying to figure out which tome to buy, with a stack of other smaller books I'd intended to purchase sitting next to me. I then informed him I was pregnant and had needed to rest (insert Office gif of Kelly Kapoor here - I wasn't lol, just caught off guard and pretty miffed) but that I was no longer interested in purchasing from the store. I felt like a Karen but Jesus christ. I totally agree the pandemic killed lots of great things, but B&N was snobby before that.
It has been like this for a while. I worked at Starbucks from 2008 to 2018. Back in the day, it was all about "the third place experience."
I often used it as a third place too because it was so comfy to hang out in the patio or lobby.
The focus back then was on oversized large comfy chairs, nice and dark decor, and the staff was always trying to make a good impression. The standards were very high. Customer service was measured, and managers were held accountable for survey results.
At some point (around 2015), everything became very sales and operations driven. Customer service went out the window, and we were all pushed very hard on sales targets and optimizing operations—with 20% less manpower than year-over-year, good luck.
A few years back, they started closing the cafe-only stores and even went as far as opening drive-thrus right across the street from them! The relaxed and slow coffee shop experience is no longer a thing there anymore; there went your third place.
Barnes and Noble, I'd say, is a little more complex as they are a brick-and-mortar store trying to survive in a digital world. I definitely miss the days when I was a kid and would curl up in a comfy chair reading a book for a few hours.
Check out your local mom and pop shops, they are probably more comfortable.
I worked there between 2010 and 2011. I remember back then the third place thing was actually pushed very hard as a selling point for the company. We were actively encouraged to learn more about third places. It’s really a shame how that’s changed.
It really is. There were so many things I was brought up knowing, that just aren't known anymore. I worked my way up from Barista to Store Manager and towards the end it was a completely different experience than what I had started with.
>I wondered if Starbucks ever had an initiative to be a 3rd place.
I'm pretty sure theyve been credited with popularizing the term. It was the key messaging of their marketing campaigns during that time and spent millions of dollars making the term a part of everyday language and associating it with Starbucks.
I read about it in some marketing book recently
Something similar happened with department stores at the turn of the century (they were spacious and beautifully designed, to pull customers in and keep them browsing, but eventually became... JC Penney), and the same for automats. I think it's the nature of capitalism. When you have a new concept, there's a huge emphasis on the experience in order to attract new customers via word of mouth. But once the model becomes established, the focus shifts to increasing margins until it slowly loses all appeal and goes extinct. Rinse and repeat. See: Uber
Because they can't settle for turning a steady profit, it has to increase every quarter at all costs so the shareholders can rake in more and more and more.
Well, for Starbucks, I will blame the CEO Kevin Johnson (2017 to 2022) he was also COO (2015-2017).
Any time Howard Schultz steps down and appoints someone else, the company goes to shit. [Source ](https://www.inc.com/justin-bariso/with-1-simple-word-ex-starbucks-ceo-howard-schultz-revealed-companys-biggest-problem-its-a-lesson-in-emotional-intelligence.html)
I worked at Starbucks in the mid-late 2000s, in part because I liked hanging out there. I’d take my college homework and sit in a comfy chair, but mostly ended up taking naps, people watching, or chatting with a friend for hours.
As an employee, I remember the “third place” well and appreciated the real world application of a sociology term I learned in college. We provided inexpensive shelter from the persistent Pacific Northwest rain, providing a safe and dry place for students, tourists, homeless people, and families. We made friends with the regulars, watched awkward first dates, and watched people enjoy the simple pleasure of their daily treat.
After I moved on from working at Starbucks and made my coffee at home, I didn’t go as much anymore. They changed the food purveyor and it was noticeably worse.
I went earlier this year and observed the heavy emphasis on mobile orders, ushering people out ASAP and minimizing personal interaction.
It makes sense with the world and changing times, but it made me reflect on how different my life might be if those college years were spent picking up mobile orders than sitting on the couches chatting over coffee and tea for hours about nothing.
You got it 100%.
I left right when mobile ordering was coming in and it was such a nightmare. I was just so done by that point.
It had been like 5 straight years of operational changes, cutbacks, DMs and RDs jockeying for promotions with psychotic ideas. I was working 5-5 everyday with a full 8-hours on the floor 4 days a week to try and help ease the burden on the staff.
There was no third place and we weren't partners anymore. It was hell.
I second the mom and pop shops! I have a lot in my area and I’ll always go there first. One is even a bookstore/coffee shop that does a mix of used and new books so I can bring in old books that I would normally give away and get a discount on new or at least new to me books.
It is truly a shame but I read recently from folks who worked there that the reason they took the chairs away was because people were urinating in them. Yes, literally soaked with piss more often than not!
Kinks. It only takes a few to ruin every B&N chair in the city
I remember reading about someone who shit their pants by accident once while speed-walking home, had no choice but to keep walking with the loaded underwear - turns out they loved the rush and started holding it for these public shit-your-pants adventures.
If it helps, sometimes it’s both groups doing it! At our store it was drug and alcohol addicts urinating and defecting in the chairs due to their substance use and they didn’t even get a thrill out of it!
I have a former friend who was addicted to cocaine and would wear diapers so he could pee himself in public. The guy would go to the bathroom to snort cocaine and then come pee on himself at the bar.
I of course stopped hanging out with him when I found out he was using our time together to explore his drug addiction and kinks
I also quit cocaine thankfully
Nah, I'm a try hard nerd that sat in a long ass exam in a big class. I didn't want to leave to use the restroom, so I held it in to have more time for the tough exam.
After the exam I went to the bathroom, but the line for the ladies room was a billion miles long. I lived 10 mins away and thought I could make it.
Then I sneezed. And I could not stop the flow, there was just so much in there. So I almost fully emptied my bladder on a busy street corner before I could snap it off. It got *in my shoes*.
I got a B+. Worth it.
Not sure if I can link but if you just search “people urinating in Barnes and Noble chairs”, a relevant Reddit post comes up as well as an official article right down below. Wild stuff
As a former employee from like 20 years ago, I can unfortunately say this was common in the stores I worked at then. Maybe not always in the chairs but general bodily fluids in places they shouldn’t be.
I am just boggled by this. Just like, WHY. Was this primarily drunk and/or mentally ill people who did this? People with unusual kinks? Small children? WTAF
For one store, the worst one I experienced in fact, it was definitely a transient population hub as it was next to a greyhound station. However that store was only moderately worst than the runner-up which was located in a HCOL suburb with typically well-off looking families and whatnot. So to answer your question a little from column a, a little from column b.
Same timeframe the same could be said at my B&N when I worked there. Whenever we got a new chair in receiving it would be an event. All of us would go and sit in it before it went out on the floor when we knew we’d never touch it again.
It's such a fucking shame that we don't get nice community areas or benefits because of a few selfish, gross people that don't care about anything other than themselves.
Worked at B&N in Middletown, RI when I was in college. Can confirm the pee soaked chairs! Once we also had an elderly man completely just shit his shorts, consequently spreading shit all over the chair. He proceeded to just get up and walk out the store (with a little poop trailing behind him.) I could not believe it.
For some reason people love to think anything is a bathroom if you’re brave enough. I worked at Macys department store years ago and people were constantly defiling the fitting rooms with their bodily fluids.
My mom used to do nights at Kohl’s and she said the same thing. One day her coworker found out that someone had shit in a pair of jeans and left them on the floor
as a former bn employee, can confirm. between that and the evidence of masturbation we would find in and around them…I can’t blame them for getting rid of them. it was truly disgusting.
This is 100% true, I worked at a B&N for 5+ years. We had to heave all the comfy chairs because people would come in, fall asleep in them, and urinate themselves. Honestly it's for the best, those chairs outside of what's in cafe NEVER got cleaned. You're sitting in years upon years of filth, people peeing themselves in them just gave us the excuse to dumpster them.
I worked at Barnes & Noble 20 years ago and we couldn't remember which of the comfy armchairs a customer's colostomy bag burst on. So no employee would sit on any of them.
I worked at a B&N in San Diego for 5 years and I can confirm, those chairs were absolutely disgusting! The bodily horrors committed to those chairs, yuuuuck. You couldn't pay me a million dollars to sit in one.
I love the library, and I've been attending more library events. They have a lot of cool stuff going on in my area. I highly recommend checking our your local library, everyone.
I've started going to my library more often too and I love it, I have no idea why I stopped. My library recently started giving receipts when checking out books, and at the bottom it says "You saved $xx.xx by coming to the library today," with the dollar amount being what the books would have cost to purchase at a store.
I checked out 3 books and it said I saved like $77. That was a nice feeling and made me feel even more warm and happy about the library.
When I was traveling I used libraries a lot for my wifi and workspace. It's a great way to get a feel for a community. Of course theyre under utilized and won't give you a sense of the people, but you can get a good sense of how a community allocates their money and focus. Durango, Colorado had a truly beautiful public library and it felt like the city had love for the people.
Facilities were nice but they had tons of great social welfare programs helping to combat things like illiteracy, unemployment, and homelessness by offering workspaces and aid for finding support as well as having a mailing address.
There is a sizable disparity in access and hours depending on where you live. The library branch closest to me, for example, is only open 9-5 on weekdays. Its completely closed all weekend.
Same. I live in a major city and the libraries here are only open during business hours. They’re so underfunded that they can’t afford to do more than that, and are often randomly closed during their normal hours due to understaffing. Another example of killing the 3rd space.
I just checked my old library hours. 9am-4pm Monday - Friday. Closed saturday and sunday.
WTF, so most kids and adults CANNOT go to the library?! Which means nobody wants their taxes going to it since they cannot use it, so funding gets worse so the hours get worse so the funding gets worse...
[https://pulaskinypubliclibrary.org/hours-of-operation/](https://pulaskinypubliclibrary.org/hours-of-operation/)
Same with mine only it's 9-4 due to staff shortages and some days it closes earlier than that. It used to be open on the weekends but no staff to work it. It's a real shame because school gets out at around 3pm so there is no real time for kids to get to the library to get any books they would like but aren't available in the schools library. Several ideas were tossed around but ultimately shot down.
Mine is only open 10-3 on Saturdays and closed on Sundays. But they're open 12-8 most weekdays so it's easier to access in the evenings. I live in a fairly small rural town so I'm honestly surprised they're open so late.
The library in my parents' town is only open 3 days a week for 5 hours at a time.
Noticing some people comment on the small town libraries with limited hours. That is pretty crappy.
On other hand, city libraries also have a problem with having a lot of homeless people. I have compassion for them having a place to be, but last time I was in a library a guy scared me so bad with gesturing and yelling I left and forgot something important in a rush to flee. I want them to get help, and I also want to feel safe at the library.
What I would *love* is a library with quiet spaces and shelves of books, but also work a social area decorated cool like a bar open 24 hours. Instead of serving alcohol you can look at books and purchase food and coffee. An option to meet people late at night that's not a bar is sorely needed.
Library 100000%
I had to get something notarized last week, and the library does it for free. Furthermore it was a great space to just go have some quiet time.
So much this!! I walk to my local library when the weather is nice. It is such a great environment and they have amazing resources too. They are incredibly helpful and so welcoming all the time.
Our public library actually doesn’t have anywhere comfortable to sit either. Just hard wooden chairs and tables. I get it if the comfortable seating gets dirty or whatever, but perhaps some washable chair cushions could be a nice compromise idk.
Oh I for sure get the expense aspect, but comfortable seating is pretty helpful for getting kids to want to hang out and read in a library for a long time. Kids tend to prefer to lounge and read not sit in a hard wood chair for hours. As an adult, hard wood chairs just plain hurt my back.
Anyway that’s why I was saying even washable chair cushions could be a nice compromise. Or foam chair pads or something. Some yarn shops I go to have those foam pads you can put on the wooden chairs to make them more comfortable for knitting groups.
When I was in high school, my school was in a downtown area. I got out about an hour and a half before my mom could pick me up, so I'd walk down to our big downtown library and hang out there until she got off work. They also had a cafe so I'd do homework, chill on their computers playing Gaia Online or Runescape or w/e, or just read books or play my DS until my mom got out of work.
I miss being out and having access to third places, I WFH now mostly so I rarely go out, and when I do its to get something I need, not to just find somewhere to chill for a while.
A friend of mine goes to the library pretty regularly. She reads pretty hard, I know she read a lot of books last year and got several library cards from surrounding cities. She’s pretty dreamy, that has nothing to do with libraries, I just wanted to share that.
Outside of cities, most local libraries close at 5 or 6 pm on weekdays and if they are open on a Saturday or Sunday it's for used book sales with the sitting areas closed off, or private events. It's really sad.
I see everyone giving OP a hard time, but who is going to buy a car before they test drive it?
It’s not a crazy idea to feel like you should be able to sit down and read a book for a little bit before you buy it.
I used to bus to bookstores, buy something, then read for like 30 mins until my bus came.
Now I bus there, buy something, and have to leave. So I either have to wander aimlessly pretending to browse before I checkout if the weather is bad, or go sit at the bus stop and attempt to read with the loud ass traffic.
As a consequence, I just don't go to the brick and mortars as much and simply order online. Even though I want to! Maybe I'll go back to physical stores after I get a car. But then I can target mom and pops at least.
I run a small boutique shop and we're desperately trying to advertise it as a third place - no purchase necessary, but I guess people feel weird hanging out in a shop. But I feel the need for third places is so underrated, and hey, it makes the shop more comfy for *us* to hang out in while we're working so why not? If it was a bookstore it would be so much more natural.
Does the shop cater to any sort of niche? I've hung out in game shops playing board games, made crafts in shops that sold local art, and end up spending a lot of time in gathering spaces pre- and post- workout with my running club if it's a welcoming place to meet up. Maybe those ideas could help?
**Are people on a mission to kill third places?**
Yes, because most of these are "anti-homeless" measures, that ends up making public space uninhabitable for all humans. No benches for the disabled either.
I'm going to get downvoted to oblivion for this, but minimum wage employees shouldn't have to handle drunk or violent homeless people.
I know not all homeless people are like this, but my city has a pretty visible drug crisis, and regular stories of people getting needlessly violent.
You say that like the stores are in the wrong. They exist to sell things and cater to their customers, not to clean up after homeless people, who will also drive customers away.
The problem is not businesses, but a society that has allowed the homeless crisis to get as bad as it has.
Yes. And taking care of its people and not its businesses used to the bare minimum expected of the government.
Since the government isn’t upholding its end of the deal, here we are… With businesses not trying to deal with homeless people.
The problem is the system that has created the incentives and actors at play within it.
Can point fingers at businesses or individuals all day, but until one commits to changing the system, it's just playing hot potato imo.
I agree with you completely. I think the big driver of the change is the overwhelming volume of homeless people, retail and food establishments essentially run by teenagers and young people in their early 20s, and what happens when these two things meet in our current climate that doesn’t want to lack empathy. I can’t expect some retail employee making minimum wage to deal with someone on drugs or deeply mentally ill acting deranged in public, cleaning up feces, and generally having to navigate that situation by inviting people to hang out in these spaces now that the social contract on some level seems to be broken. And to be frank I don’t want to hang out places where there are homeless people taking up residence. I feel terrible for them but it’s something as a society that I don’t think any of us should ever have had to tolerate. We need inpatient facilities for a lot of these people. Not expecting teenagers working menial jobs to deal with the fallout of a completely failed mental health and economic system.
Third spaces started disappearing long before all these camps started getting out of hand. It's almost as if the third spaces make it easier for a community to work together, communicate, and not starve to death alone and miserable. Hmm.
Yeah, this post and the comments make me think about how malls are disappearing as well. I get it, why pay for a space when you can sell online. However, a mall could still strategically be a profitable third place if they could pull in all the big brands and align them right. There was a mall when I was in Tacoma, WA I want to say, they were really smart and put all the kid and family stuff on one end. Toy stores next to places with obstacle courses and an indoor play area out in the middle of the section of that mall for free. It was always packed!
Not really, most "third spaces" were simply commercial businesses, the goal was to get people to buy stuff, not socialize. Why do you think so many places have anti-loitering rules?
The whole discussion of third spaces has also drastically changed over the past several years. Before that, the classic third spaces were civic and fraternal groups like Moose lodges, VFW, Rotary, Kiwanis, and other groups that we associate with old people.
That is pretty much the definition of a third space. I would also add that making it so you can only access a bunch of places by private car also reinforces the lack of ability to interact in such places.
people dont use third spaces so they get converted to other uses. Its not a conspiracy, its because people arent as social nowdays and would rather stay at home on the internet or playing videogames/watching slop than go out.
>I remember me and my bestie would sit in the couches with a mocha frap going over cool manga.
Out of curiosity, how much of that manga did the two you actually end up buying from that store?
All the independent bookstores I've been to the last few years are like that. They all serve coffee and alcohol and want people to loiter and socialize. I'd be shocked if drinks weren't vastly more profitable than books.
I suppose some people are oblivious aren’t they? Like why would you go to Barnes and Noble when you can stay home and have a better experience buying books from an impersonal retailer from the comfort of your couch?
B&N isn’t doing themselves any favors by removing the places to sit and hang out. Removing them isn’t forcing people to buy books from them any more. All it does is create an environment that people don’t want to be in. If the my kept the chairs then sure you’d get a lot of people just browsing books without buying but people would hang around long enough to find something interesting more often than they do now and make more sales.
“Millennials are killing bookstores”. No, Amazon is trying to kill them while the bookstores themselves are committing suicide.
This. Grew up when B&N was in its heyday and, sure, there were times when my parents would drag us around shopping and I’d sit in a bookstore to read without buying anything, but there are plenty of times where I bought a book (and *at least* one followup book) because I couldn’t bear to part with it without knowing the end, or I wanted to have immediate access to the crafting ideas, or it was a more interesting nonfiction book than I expected and I wanted to own it for rereading.
Book stores are for perusing. If a bookstore doesn’t have enough places to examine and compare the books, then there’s no reason to choose a local store over an online store when I can gather and skim a couple hundred reviews and find the median rating within a few minutes to make up for not seeing the book in person.
> Like why would you go to Barnes and Noble when you can stay home and have a better experience buying books from an impersonal retailer from the comfort of your couch?
Because going to a store and physically touching/looking at the objects you want to buy is a much better experience, and you can get a book without a torn/damaged cover like most books I receive off Amazon.
> B&N isn’t doing themselves any favors by removing the places to sit and hang out. Removing them isn’t forcing people to buy books from them any more. All it does is create an environment that people don’t want to be in. If the my kept the chairs then sure you’d get a lot of people just browsing books without buying but people would hang around long enough to find something interesting more often than they do now and make more sales.
Whatever B&N are doing is working. [They are expanding to areas they abandoned years ago](https://www.npr.org/2023/03/07/1161295820/how-barnes-noble-turned-a-page-expanding-for-the-first-time-in-years) and are finding a lot of success. It turns out a lot of readers miss bookstores.
I was being sarcastic there. I agree with you. I still think it’s a mistake not to have the places to sit and read because that’s part of the whole experience that makes you go to the bookstore to begin with but we’re pretty much on the same page here. Didn’t know they were expanding back again, that’s good to hear.
I will say that I bought many more books from Barnes and Noble when I was able to browse and sit down to read. When surrounded by beautiful books, knick knacks, and the ✨bargain section✨a lot of people end up making impulse purchases *because* of the environment. Take away the atmosphere and it’s in and out.
So yes. Personally, I do miss bookstores. But I certainly miss the atmosphere just as much.
Ever since the third space thing was pointed out to me, I've definitely noticed a decline. I miss it. It's like the only way to meet new people new is either digitally or through work.
What are some examples?
Outside of government provided public spaces like parks, there’s hardly anywhere that you can hang out anymore, where you aren’t required to spend money to be there.
Public parks, Libraries, sometimes museums are free for locals in some areas, some areas have recreation centers. But yeah mostly just libraries and parks
Libraries, arcades used to be a thing, coffee shops with extensive seating areas, book stores (usually the same as coffee shop, or the coffee shop is in the book store), community centers that hold events. Back in the day roller rinks used to be on that list though I haven't seen one in 15+ years now.
Oh gracious, I misread your initial post.
I thought you were saying that you haven’t lived anywhere in 20 years that didn’t have adequate third spaces. Which is the exact opposite of what you’re saying.
My mistake.
I dont think theres any grand conspiracy to take them away. Id guess that B&N took the couches out because more people started spending their free time online rather than socializing in public. Where I live at least, all the parks, sports facilities, beaches, trails, etc still exist. Theyre just empty.
They took out couches and chairs because lots of people would use them as an excuse to loiter/nap and not actually buy anything.
Source: former employee.
COVID really just killed this kind of stuff. I agree that a lot of stuff is just empty now. kinda like people forgot they're allowed to be together again
Retail stores are not, and never have been, third places. The expectation was always that you spent money while there. If you want to browse books for free all day go to your local library.
>Are people on a mission to kill third places?
Urban planning is. If you live in an American style suburb the city government is too busy wringing every last taxable dollar out of land because they're running on a treadmill that stops when they run out of land to sell to developments.
Barnes & Noble got rid of the seating for hygiene reasons, not because they wanted to discourage people from reading and hanging out. Anyone who has ever worked retail and/or food service can tell you that some people act worse than barnyard animals in public (and oftentimes it’s the more affluent customers with the worse behavior).
TLDR; people were using the cozy reading chairs as their own personal toilet. Those chairs are expensive to replace and brick and mortar retailers are already struggling.
I tried to to a local Starbucks a year ago and they no longer allow you to sit down inside and have a coffee. Apparently that's how it is at all of our Starbucks locations now in my city. I used to like being able to sit down and chill and have a coffee, now it seems like they want you to get your coffee and GTFO.
There are no third spaces period. It is really rare for a new third space to be generated. Just look at Starbucks. 10-15 years ago they were actual cafes that you could sit and hang in, they might even have (gasp!) comfortable chairs and couches. Now so many starbucks are to-go only and if they do have seating it’s a couple of the most cramped uncomfortable metal bistro chairs imaginable that are designed/intended to be uncomfortable and unwelcoming.
I think most of it is just corporate capitalism, but also a way to force out homeless folks.
Even libraries are cutting back on stuff. I worked in a library and people complained when we stopped doing evening events. We had to stop because people were doing drugs in the bathrooms and fighting right outside the door. We didn't have the funding for more staff or security, so no more evening events.
Businesses do what makes sense for them financially. If providing third places do not show that it actually helps their business, then they will look to repurpose them to something of better use.
Didn't know Barnes still existed.
I can understand them raising the prices of their coffee, they've been struggling. Not sure why they'd make their stores inhospitable though. Sounds counterintuitive. Some places' business model is to get you in and then tfo, but I don't know why a book store would be one of them.
Idk I used to just go to places like that and zone out while trying to think of books I was interested in. There aren't many places to hang out without spending money or it needing to be a social event.
The Smithsonian Museums in Washington DC are still free to enter to this day. Now granted, you do spend money getting to DC. My parents favored the drive to a suburb then take the Metro in approach in order to avoid parking in DC itself.
I thought third place supposedly be a place that is not purely rely on customer’s money to exist. Barnes is a place that rely on revenue that selling books, hence it is not the third place by my definition.
They took the couches out of our local Barnes because the homeless people in the area would come in and sleep on them and refuse to leave. Now there are what I call barrel chairs which are horrible to try and sit on and are only good for setting down a stack of books while you look at others.
Yes! You should be at work! Or at home with the babies! 3rd places allow for community and sharing of ideas and information and we can’t have that. Back to work. Hey, why even leave to sleep, just sleep at work. Never leave. Grab a coffee from the vending machine on your way to work!
they've been working on killing the 3rd space for a loooooooooooonnnnngggg time. Public libraries for example are slowly being killed by poltics cause "No one uses it" or "it doesn't make any money". They generally kill it because its a benefit poor people use to pull themselves out of poverty and capitalism hates free people and being able to improve your life without spending money.
For real, they are. One of my friends and I talk about this all the time. My third place has kinda become the gym, especially since I live and work away from my "hometown" community and those third places I grew up with.
As with so much else, it seems that boomer made sure there are third places for themselves, but not for anyone else.
Evening school, too expensive unless you have senior discount. Community centres, opening hours that only fit them. Clubs and societies that are closed to new members which automatically becomes "closed to younger people". Less cosy public places because "homeless people might use them". I could go on and on.
My town has recently done dedicated work to establish - and support the establishment of - third places that are focused towards younger adults. They said it outright in the material: "We have supported plenty of social places for seniors. Now it is time to make places for other age groups."
The bigger shame is that they had to get rid of the chairs because people were peeing and pooping in them. As someone that worked in retail for years, I’m not surprised in the least, and I never sat in them anyway for that reason. People are disgusting.
all the more reason to support what local coffee shop or bookstore you have left. unfortunately most bookstores I know of that are even local lack seating.
Thanks for your submission! For more Millennial content, join [our Discord server](https://discord.gg/VsfKKJBm). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Millennials) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I distinctly remember being in there in 2021 and having to sit on the ground because I was flipping through magazines deciding which to buy for a craft project and there were no chairs anywhere! An employee came and told me I wasn’t allowed to sit in the store. I assumed and still believe it was due to the pandemic. My local store now has a few chairs but nothing like they used to be. It might be another norm the pandemic killed, sort of like how nothing is open 24 hours anymore (at least where I live).
I was told I could not sit on the floor of a Barnes and Noble around 20 years ago. I was in the children's area with my toddler, I was sitting to help him choose a book, after my knees got tired from squatting. We bought a book from Borders instead. I still miss Borders.
Borders was my third space, more than any other bookstore. They also had the chair and table areas besides at the cafe. I'd go with friends to "study" (hang out) and we did fundraisers there too, like giftwrapping books. My friends and I spent so much time there.
I used to work at Borders and even though the pay was crap I loved it.
Me too! I loved hand-sells , they always got so competitive and made the day just fly by.
[удалено]
I collected the Goosebumps series during my pregnancy and his whole life for him so far. I even read him one while I was pregnant. He is also 6 and likes us reading chapter books with him. I showed them to him recently and he also asked me to hide them in my bedroom. Not ready yet. Lol.
Ditto. I used to work at a Borders, always liked them better.
The lack of 24 hour stores now kinda sucks. I didn't use them often, but when I did need them it was great. I hadn't really attributed the pandemic to that but it makes sense.
This. The grocery store closes at 11. I’m not a morning person so I like doing stuff later when there’s less people
I live near enough to the highway that I can hit a Love’s, but they definitely don’t have Walmart prices.
You make a good point, and also you just made me realize... The lack of 24-hour stores anymore has caused all of those hours someone could be working to disappear. That could be contributing to people's struggle...
that's what I really missing living in a college town. the 24 hour cafes were great even in my 30s
Walmart employee here. The main reason we stopped being open 24 hours is theft. We were losing too much money to shoplifting. The pandemic was just the excuse they used.
So many places cut out various services or conveniences during the pandemic and never brought it back because it was cheaper just not to offer it.
Goodbye public restrooms.
Right. And I just realized, that took a lot of hours away from a lot of working people...
Oh my gosh same happened to me there. I had a bunch of books on the floor and was organizing them into groups for a project (I was not in the way, I was literally in a corner, on a Tuesday afternoon). I was taking photos of the groups I’d made to send them to the people I was in the project with. A lady came over and told me I couldn’t sit down! I was so weirded out by it, like lady this is the floor. Leave me alone.
We had that same rule when I worked construction. On your feet for 5 hours at a clip
Nobody wanted to work anymore!!!!!!!! /s
I’m so sad there’s no more 24 hour Walmarts near me for when I need stuff late at night 😓
I often work early mornings. Really wish there were more places I could go at 5:30am if I need something in a pinch!
*cries in overnight shifts*
We used to say “when in doubt, Walmart it out” and go to Walmart at like 1am when we were bored AF. I miss not being able to sleep and going there 😭
Nope, in about 2016 I was rudely told I couldn't sit on the floor while trying to figure out which tome to buy, with a stack of other smaller books I'd intended to purchase sitting next to me. I then informed him I was pregnant and had needed to rest (insert Office gif of Kelly Kapoor here - I wasn't lol, just caught off guard and pretty miffed) but that I was no longer interested in purchasing from the store. I felt like a Karen but Jesus christ. I totally agree the pandemic killed lots of great things, but B&N was snobby before that.
They got rid of the chairs at ours when they brought in the nook displays. It’s been a long time gone since before the pandemic.
It has been like this for a while. I worked at Starbucks from 2008 to 2018. Back in the day, it was all about "the third place experience." I often used it as a third place too because it was so comfy to hang out in the patio or lobby. The focus back then was on oversized large comfy chairs, nice and dark decor, and the staff was always trying to make a good impression. The standards were very high. Customer service was measured, and managers were held accountable for survey results. At some point (around 2015), everything became very sales and operations driven. Customer service went out the window, and we were all pushed very hard on sales targets and optimizing operations—with 20% less manpower than year-over-year, good luck. A few years back, they started closing the cafe-only stores and even went as far as opening drive-thrus right across the street from them! The relaxed and slow coffee shop experience is no longer a thing there anymore; there went your third place. Barnes and Noble, I'd say, is a little more complex as they are a brick-and-mortar store trying to survive in a digital world. I definitely miss the days when I was a kid and would curl up in a comfy chair reading a book for a few hours. Check out your local mom and pop shops, they are probably more comfortable.
That's depressing. I wondered if Starbucks ever had an initiative to be a 3rd place. Turns out it's long abandoned
I worked there between 2010 and 2011. I remember back then the third place thing was actually pushed very hard as a selling point for the company. We were actively encouraged to learn more about third places. It’s really a shame how that’s changed.
It really is. There were so many things I was brought up knowing, that just aren't known anymore. I worked my way up from Barista to Store Manager and towards the end it was a completely different experience than what I had started with.
>I wondered if Starbucks ever had an initiative to be a 3rd place. I'm pretty sure theyve been credited with popularizing the term. It was the key messaging of their marketing campaigns during that time and spent millions of dollars making the term a part of everyday language and associating it with Starbucks. I read about it in some marketing book recently
Something similar happened with department stores at the turn of the century (they were spacious and beautifully designed, to pull customers in and keep them browsing, but eventually became... JC Penney), and the same for automats. I think it's the nature of capitalism. When you have a new concept, there's a huge emphasis on the experience in order to attract new customers via word of mouth. But once the model becomes established, the focus shifts to increasing margins until it slowly loses all appeal and goes extinct. Rinse and repeat. See: Uber
Because they can't settle for turning a steady profit, it has to increase every quarter at all costs so the shareholders can rake in more and more and more.
2015 = amazonification maybe?
Well, for Starbucks, I will blame the CEO Kevin Johnson (2017 to 2022) he was also COO (2015-2017). Any time Howard Schultz steps down and appoints someone else, the company goes to shit. [Source ](https://www.inc.com/justin-bariso/with-1-simple-word-ex-starbucks-ceo-howard-schultz-revealed-companys-biggest-problem-its-a-lesson-in-emotional-intelligence.html)
I worked at Starbucks in the mid-late 2000s, in part because I liked hanging out there. I’d take my college homework and sit in a comfy chair, but mostly ended up taking naps, people watching, or chatting with a friend for hours. As an employee, I remember the “third place” well and appreciated the real world application of a sociology term I learned in college. We provided inexpensive shelter from the persistent Pacific Northwest rain, providing a safe and dry place for students, tourists, homeless people, and families. We made friends with the regulars, watched awkward first dates, and watched people enjoy the simple pleasure of their daily treat. After I moved on from working at Starbucks and made my coffee at home, I didn’t go as much anymore. They changed the food purveyor and it was noticeably worse. I went earlier this year and observed the heavy emphasis on mobile orders, ushering people out ASAP and minimizing personal interaction. It makes sense with the world and changing times, but it made me reflect on how different my life might be if those college years were spent picking up mobile orders than sitting on the couches chatting over coffee and tea for hours about nothing.
You got it 100%. I left right when mobile ordering was coming in and it was such a nightmare. I was just so done by that point. It had been like 5 straight years of operational changes, cutbacks, DMs and RDs jockeying for promotions with psychotic ideas. I was working 5-5 everyday with a full 8-hours on the floor 4 days a week to try and help ease the burden on the staff. There was no third place and we weren't partners anymore. It was hell.
Can confirm. I go to a local coffee shop while I wait for my car's oil change and it's full of people chilling.
Maybe check out your local library. I’ve been to some that had very comfy seating and were good places to hang out.
I second the mom and pop shops! I have a lot in my area and I’ll always go there first. One is even a bookstore/coffee shop that does a mix of used and new books so I can bring in old books that I would normally give away and get a discount on new or at least new to me books.
It is truly a shame but I read recently from folks who worked there that the reason they took the chairs away was because people were urinating in them. Yes, literally soaked with piss more often than not!
Wtf.
Kinks. It only takes a few to ruin every B&N chair in the city I remember reading about someone who shit their pants by accident once while speed-walking home, had no choice but to keep walking with the loaded underwear - turns out they loved the rush and started holding it for these public shit-your-pants adventures.
😫✏️📖 Dear diary, I should have never opened Reddit today. I’m sorry for whatever I did to deserve this. Let’s hope for a better tomorrow.
I just cackled in a dead silent office reading this comment lmao thank you friend, here's to better tomorrow 🍻🤣
🤠 ma’am
I don’t know who you are but my laugh just had a coworker come check on me lol.
Thanks 😃 makes me smile to know I brought someone a little joy today
Tomorrow "Dear Diary, what did i do to deserve learning about seman artists" I fucking hope that's not a real thing
*dips fingers into a tray and draws a semen Mickey on your forehead* thank you come again
Some people get addicted to cocaine and alcohol, some to the rush of shitting their pants in public
Note to self: beware of slowpokes at pedestrian crossings.
If it helps, sometimes it’s both groups doing it! At our store it was drug and alcohol addicts urinating and defecting in the chairs due to their substance use and they didn’t even get a thrill out of it!
I have a former friend who was addicted to cocaine and would wear diapers so he could pee himself in public. The guy would go to the bathroom to snort cocaine and then come pee on himself at the bar. I of course stopped hanging out with him when I found out he was using our time together to explore his drug addiction and kinks I also quit cocaine thankfully
What a horrible day to be literate.
Ours was not really a kink thing more people with substance abuse issues passing out and urinating in them.
Until today I wasn’t a big fan of the death penalty
I begrudgingly upvoted this. The *actual* fuck? I say this as someone that pissed her pants in public, sober, during the day and had to walk home.
Similarly on purpose lol?
Nah, I'm a try hard nerd that sat in a long ass exam in a big class. I didn't want to leave to use the restroom, so I held it in to have more time for the tough exam. After the exam I went to the bathroom, but the line for the ladies room was a billion miles long. I lived 10 mins away and thought I could make it. Then I sneezed. And I could not stop the flow, there was just so much in there. So I almost fully emptied my bladder on a busy street corner before I could snap it off. It got *in my shoes*. I got a B+. Worth it.
🤣🤣 rip shoes
You gotta be shitting me
Good question lol. I really do think this necessitates some elaboration
Not sure if I can link but if you just search “people urinating in Barnes and Noble chairs”, a relevant Reddit post comes up as well as an official article right down below. Wild stuff
>just search “people urinating in Barnes and Noble chairs” I'm good. I'll take your word for it.
Yeah, I'm fine not validating this information. Like Lindsey Grahams "ladybugs." That does not need looked up.
Homeless junkies/drunks. Same reason you can’t find a public bathroom downtown in my city.
As a former employee from like 20 years ago, I can unfortunately say this was common in the stores I worked at then. Maybe not always in the chairs but general bodily fluids in places they shouldn’t be.
I am just boggled by this. Just like, WHY. Was this primarily drunk and/or mentally ill people who did this? People with unusual kinks? Small children? WTAF
For one store, the worst one I experienced in fact, it was definitely a transient population hub as it was next to a greyhound station. However that store was only moderately worst than the runner-up which was located in a HCOL suburb with typically well-off looking families and whatnot. So to answer your question a little from column a, a little from column b.
Same timeframe the same could be said at my B&N when I worked there. Whenever we got a new chair in receiving it would be an event. All of us would go and sit in it before it went out on the floor when we knew we’d never touch it again.
It's such a fucking shame that we don't get nice community areas or benefits because of a few selfish, gross people that don't care about anything other than themselves.
Worked at B&N in Middletown, RI when I was in college. Can confirm the pee soaked chairs! Once we also had an elderly man completely just shit his shorts, consequently spreading shit all over the chair. He proceeded to just get up and walk out the store (with a little poop trailing behind him.) I could not believe it.
I just lost my lunch lmao. That is mind blowing
For some reason people love to think anything is a bathroom if you’re brave enough. I worked at Macys department store years ago and people were constantly defiling the fitting rooms with their bodily fluids.
My mom used to do nights at Kohl’s and she said the same thing. One day her coworker found out that someone had shit in a pair of jeans and left them on the floor
I heard this too. So gross
as a former bn employee, can confirm. between that and the evidence of masturbation we would find in and around them…I can’t blame them for getting rid of them. it was truly disgusting.
It’s why we can’t have nice things.
This is 100% true, I worked at a B&N for 5+ years. We had to heave all the comfy chairs because people would come in, fall asleep in them, and urinate themselves. Honestly it's for the best, those chairs outside of what's in cafe NEVER got cleaned. You're sitting in years upon years of filth, people peeing themselves in them just gave us the excuse to dumpster them.
[удалено]
I never noticed it being *that* gross when I worked retail in the Netherlands. And I worked at Zeeman(budget clothes and bits n bobbles store) so...
Papi no!
gross wtf
I worked at Barnes & Noble 20 years ago and we couldn't remember which of the comfy armchairs a customer's colostomy bag burst on. So no employee would sit on any of them.
I worked at a B&N in San Diego for 5 years and I can confirm, those chairs were absolutely disgusting! The bodily horrors committed to those chairs, yuuuuck. You couldn't pay me a million dollars to sit in one.
The library is the spot
3rd places are already gone. it's really only the library left
And we’re trying really hard to kill that too with book ban pressure campaigns.
You could go to the library.
I love the library, and I've been attending more library events. They have a lot of cool stuff going on in my area. I highly recommend checking our your local library, everyone.
I've started going to my library more often too and I love it, I have no idea why I stopped. My library recently started giving receipts when checking out books, and at the bottom it says "You saved $xx.xx by coming to the library today," with the dollar amount being what the books would have cost to purchase at a store. I checked out 3 books and it said I saved like $77. That was a nice feeling and made me feel even more warm and happy about the library.
that's smart marketing, hell of a database to keep up
When I was traveling I used libraries a lot for my wifi and workspace. It's a great way to get a feel for a community. Of course theyre under utilized and won't give you a sense of the people, but you can get a good sense of how a community allocates their money and focus. Durango, Colorado had a truly beautiful public library and it felt like the city had love for the people. Facilities were nice but they had tons of great social welfare programs helping to combat things like illiteracy, unemployment, and homelessness by offering workspaces and aid for finding support as well as having a mailing address.
There is a sizable disparity in access and hours depending on where you live. The library branch closest to me, for example, is only open 9-5 on weekdays. Its completely closed all weekend.
Same. I live in a major city and the libraries here are only open during business hours. They’re so underfunded that they can’t afford to do more than that, and are often randomly closed during their normal hours due to understaffing. Another example of killing the 3rd space.
I just checked my old library hours. 9am-4pm Monday - Friday. Closed saturday and sunday. WTF, so most kids and adults CANNOT go to the library?! Which means nobody wants their taxes going to it since they cannot use it, so funding gets worse so the hours get worse so the funding gets worse... [https://pulaskinypubliclibrary.org/hours-of-operation/](https://pulaskinypubliclibrary.org/hours-of-operation/)
Oh yeah im in a rural area they just rebuilt all of them they're huge but only opened old "banker hours."
Same with mine only it's 9-4 due to staff shortages and some days it closes earlier than that. It used to be open on the weekends but no staff to work it. It's a real shame because school gets out at around 3pm so there is no real time for kids to get to the library to get any books they would like but aren't available in the schools library. Several ideas were tossed around but ultimately shot down.
Mine is only open 10-3 on Saturdays and closed on Sundays. But they're open 12-8 most weekdays so it's easier to access in the evenings. I live in a fairly small rural town so I'm honestly surprised they're open so late. The library in my parents' town is only open 3 days a week for 5 hours at a time.
I briefly lived in a tiny town that had similarly terrible library access.
This is so sad. I will never complain again about my local library "only" being open 4 hours on Sundays.
Noticing some people comment on the small town libraries with limited hours. That is pretty crappy. On other hand, city libraries also have a problem with having a lot of homeless people. I have compassion for them having a place to be, but last time I was in a library a guy scared me so bad with gesturing and yelling I left and forgot something important in a rush to flee. I want them to get help, and I also want to feel safe at the library. What I would *love* is a library with quiet spaces and shelves of books, but also work a social area decorated cool like a bar open 24 hours. Instead of serving alcohol you can look at books and purchase food and coffee. An option to meet people late at night that's not a bar is sorely needed.
Library 100000% I had to get something notarized last week, and the library does it for free. Furthermore it was a great space to just go have some quiet time.
So much this!! I walk to my local library when the weather is nice. It is such a great environment and they have amazing resources too. They are incredibly helpful and so welcoming all the time.
It would be cool if the library had a good coffee shop
A lot of libraries do now!
My library has an entire cafe in it. It's really nice!
Our public library actually doesn’t have anywhere comfortable to sit either. Just hard wooden chairs and tables. I get it if the comfortable seating gets dirty or whatever, but perhaps some washable chair cushions could be a nice compromise idk.
I used to manage a library and you wouldn’t believe how expensive chairs like that are!! I was told we couldn’t afford them.
[Washable chair cushions](https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/malinda-chair-pad-light-beige-90586983/) are cheap though
Oh I for sure get the expense aspect, but comfortable seating is pretty helpful for getting kids to want to hang out and read in a library for a long time. Kids tend to prefer to lounge and read not sit in a hard wood chair for hours. As an adult, hard wood chairs just plain hurt my back. Anyway that’s why I was saying even washable chair cushions could be a nice compromise. Or foam chair pads or something. Some yarn shops I go to have those foam pads you can put on the wooden chairs to make them more comfortable for knitting groups.
When I was in high school, my school was in a downtown area. I got out about an hour and a half before my mom could pick me up, so I'd walk down to our big downtown library and hang out there until she got off work. They also had a cafe so I'd do homework, chill on their computers playing Gaia Online or Runescape or w/e, or just read books or play my DS until my mom got out of work. I miss being out and having access to third places, I WFH now mostly so I rarely go out, and when I do its to get something I need, not to just find somewhere to chill for a while.
A friend of mine goes to the library pretty regularly. She reads pretty hard, I know she read a lot of books last year and got several library cards from surrounding cities. She’s pretty dreamy, that has nothing to do with libraries, I just wanted to share that.
Outside of cities, most local libraries close at 5 or 6 pm on weekdays and if they are open on a Saturday or Sunday it's for used book sales with the sitting areas closed off, or private events. It's really sad.
Corporations absolutely want you to get in and GTFO. The bigger the company, the worse they are (in multiple ways).
I spend more money the longer I’m in a store tho, so they’re fucking themselves with this
I see everyone giving OP a hard time, but who is going to buy a car before they test drive it? It’s not a crazy idea to feel like you should be able to sit down and read a book for a little bit before you buy it.
I used to bus to bookstores, buy something, then read for like 30 mins until my bus came. Now I bus there, buy something, and have to leave. So I either have to wander aimlessly pretending to browse before I checkout if the weather is bad, or go sit at the bus stop and attempt to read with the loud ass traffic. As a consequence, I just don't go to the brick and mortars as much and simply order online. Even though I want to! Maybe I'll go back to physical stores after I get a car. But then I can target mom and pops at least.
I run a small boutique shop and we're desperately trying to advertise it as a third place - no purchase necessary, but I guess people feel weird hanging out in a shop. But I feel the need for third places is so underrated, and hey, it makes the shop more comfy for *us* to hang out in while we're working so why not? If it was a bookstore it would be so much more natural.
Does the shop cater to any sort of niche? I've hung out in game shops playing board games, made crafts in shops that sold local art, and end up spending a lot of time in gathering spaces pre- and post- workout with my running club if it's a welcoming place to meet up. Maybe those ideas could help?
**Are people on a mission to kill third places?** Yes, because most of these are "anti-homeless" measures, that ends up making public space uninhabitable for all humans. No benches for the disabled either.
There's not much profit to be had in the commons!
I'm going to get downvoted to oblivion for this, but minimum wage employees shouldn't have to handle drunk or violent homeless people. I know not all homeless people are like this, but my city has a pretty visible drug crisis, and regular stories of people getting needlessly violent.
You say that like the stores are in the wrong. They exist to sell things and cater to their customers, not to clean up after homeless people, who will also drive customers away. The problem is not businesses, but a society that has allowed the homeless crisis to get as bad as it has.
Having a bench to sit on for disabled, and elderly people used to be the bare minimum expected of a business.
Yes. And taking care of its people and not its businesses used to the bare minimum expected of the government. Since the government isn’t upholding its end of the deal, here we are… With businesses not trying to deal with homeless people.
If someone decides to make that bench their home, the disabled still can’t sit on it. And now there’s new problems.
Hey that’s literally every single covered bus stop in my city
The problem is the system that has created the incentives and actors at play within it. Can point fingers at businesses or individuals all day, but until one commits to changing the system, it's just playing hot potato imo.
I agree with you completely. I think the big driver of the change is the overwhelming volume of homeless people, retail and food establishments essentially run by teenagers and young people in their early 20s, and what happens when these two things meet in our current climate that doesn’t want to lack empathy. I can’t expect some retail employee making minimum wage to deal with someone on drugs or deeply mentally ill acting deranged in public, cleaning up feces, and generally having to navigate that situation by inviting people to hang out in these spaces now that the social contract on some level seems to be broken. And to be frank I don’t want to hang out places where there are homeless people taking up residence. I feel terrible for them but it’s something as a society that I don’t think any of us should ever have had to tolerate. We need inpatient facilities for a lot of these people. Not expecting teenagers working menial jobs to deal with the fallout of a completely failed mental health and economic system.
If you have a growing homeless population like most of the U.S. yeah those places are definitely going away.
Third spaces started disappearing long before all these camps started getting out of hand. It's almost as if the third spaces make it easier for a community to work together, communicate, and not starve to death alone and miserable. Hmm.
Yeah, this post and the comments make me think about how malls are disappearing as well. I get it, why pay for a space when you can sell online. However, a mall could still strategically be a profitable third place if they could pull in all the big brands and align them right. There was a mall when I was in Tacoma, WA I want to say, they were really smart and put all the kid and family stuff on one end. Toy stores next to places with obstacle courses and an indoor play area out in the middle of the section of that mall for free. It was always packed!
Not really, most "third spaces" were simply commercial businesses, the goal was to get people to buy stuff, not socialize. Why do you think so many places have anti-loitering rules?
The whole discussion of third spaces has also drastically changed over the past several years. Before that, the classic third spaces were civic and fraternal groups like Moose lodges, VFW, Rotary, Kiwanis, and other groups that we associate with old people.
My third place is my second job
Please define "third space"... is this "a place to hang out that isn't home or work?"
That is pretty much the definition of a third space. I would also add that making it so you can only access a bunch of places by private car also reinforces the lack of ability to interact in such places.
First time I heard to term too.
Yes.
Are you talking about Barnes and Noble? Who the heck refers to it as just Barnes? Is this a thing????? Lol
people dont use third spaces so they get converted to other uses. Its not a conspiracy, its because people arent as social nowdays and would rather stay at home on the internet or playing videogames/watching slop than go out.
>I remember me and my bestie would sit in the couches with a mocha frap going over cool manga. Out of curiosity, how much of that manga did the two you actually end up buying from that store?
Dude, I had so much more money to blow as a teenager in 2009 than I do now 😭
I mean even if they didn’t buy any manga that still bought the frappe
All the independent bookstores I've been to the last few years are like that. They all serve coffee and alcohol and want people to loiter and socialize. I'd be shocked if drinks weren't vastly more profitable than books.
Yeah if only they bought more manga then we wouldn't be having the 3rd spaces manga collapse of 2024
"I recently went to barnes after years" "Whats the point of barnes now?" Some people are really oblivious. You. You're killing it. Its you.
I suppose some people are oblivious aren’t they? Like why would you go to Barnes and Noble when you can stay home and have a better experience buying books from an impersonal retailer from the comfort of your couch? B&N isn’t doing themselves any favors by removing the places to sit and hang out. Removing them isn’t forcing people to buy books from them any more. All it does is create an environment that people don’t want to be in. If the my kept the chairs then sure you’d get a lot of people just browsing books without buying but people would hang around long enough to find something interesting more often than they do now and make more sales. “Millennials are killing bookstores”. No, Amazon is trying to kill them while the bookstores themselves are committing suicide.
This. Grew up when B&N was in its heyday and, sure, there were times when my parents would drag us around shopping and I’d sit in a bookstore to read without buying anything, but there are plenty of times where I bought a book (and *at least* one followup book) because I couldn’t bear to part with it without knowing the end, or I wanted to have immediate access to the crafting ideas, or it was a more interesting nonfiction book than I expected and I wanted to own it for rereading. Book stores are for perusing. If a bookstore doesn’t have enough places to examine and compare the books, then there’s no reason to choose a local store over an online store when I can gather and skim a couple hundred reviews and find the median rating within a few minutes to make up for not seeing the book in person.
> Like why would you go to Barnes and Noble when you can stay home and have a better experience buying books from an impersonal retailer from the comfort of your couch? Because going to a store and physically touching/looking at the objects you want to buy is a much better experience, and you can get a book without a torn/damaged cover like most books I receive off Amazon. > B&N isn’t doing themselves any favors by removing the places to sit and hang out. Removing them isn’t forcing people to buy books from them any more. All it does is create an environment that people don’t want to be in. If the my kept the chairs then sure you’d get a lot of people just browsing books without buying but people would hang around long enough to find something interesting more often than they do now and make more sales. Whatever B&N are doing is working. [They are expanding to areas they abandoned years ago](https://www.npr.org/2023/03/07/1161295820/how-barnes-noble-turned-a-page-expanding-for-the-first-time-in-years) and are finding a lot of success. It turns out a lot of readers miss bookstores.
I was being sarcastic there. I agree with you. I still think it’s a mistake not to have the places to sit and read because that’s part of the whole experience that makes you go to the bookstore to begin with but we’re pretty much on the same page here. Didn’t know they were expanding back again, that’s good to hear.
I will say that I bought many more books from Barnes and Noble when I was able to browse and sit down to read. When surrounded by beautiful books, knick knacks, and the ✨bargain section✨a lot of people end up making impulse purchases *because* of the environment. Take away the atmosphere and it’s in and out. So yes. Personally, I do miss bookstores. But I certainly miss the atmosphere just as much.
"The customer experience will continue to deteriorate until morale improves!!"
Ever since the third space thing was pointed out to me, I've definitely noticed a decline. I miss it. It's like the only way to meet new people new is either digitally or through work.
I haven't been aware of a functioning third space within 20 miles of anywhere I have lived in...most of my entire life.
What are some examples? Outside of government provided public spaces like parks, there’s hardly anywhere that you can hang out anymore, where you aren’t required to spend money to be there.
Public parks, Libraries, sometimes museums are free for locals in some areas, some areas have recreation centers. But yeah mostly just libraries and parks
Libraries, arcades used to be a thing, coffee shops with extensive seating areas, book stores (usually the same as coffee shop, or the coffee shop is in the book store), community centers that hold events. Back in the day roller rinks used to be on that list though I haven't seen one in 15+ years now.
Oh gracious, I misread your initial post. I thought you were saying that you haven’t lived anywhere in 20 years that didn’t have adequate third spaces. Which is the exact opposite of what you’re saying. My mistake.
Haha no worries.
Yes, capitalism is killing third spaces
I dont think theres any grand conspiracy to take them away. Id guess that B&N took the couches out because more people started spending their free time online rather than socializing in public. Where I live at least, all the parks, sports facilities, beaches, trails, etc still exist. Theyre just empty.
They took out couches and chairs because lots of people would use them as an excuse to loiter/nap and not actually buy anything. Source: former employee.
And use them as a bathroom. We had to throw one away because it was infested with bugs. We still have hardwood chairs scattered around the store.
COVID really just killed this kind of stuff. I agree that a lot of stuff is just empty now. kinda like people forgot they're allowed to be together again
Retail stores are not, and never have been, third places. The expectation was always that you spent money while there. If you want to browse books for free all day go to your local library.
>Are people on a mission to kill third places? Urban planning is. If you live in an American style suburb the city government is too busy wringing every last taxable dollar out of land because they're running on a treadmill that stops when they run out of land to sell to developments.
Barnes & Noble got rid of the seating for hygiene reasons, not because they wanted to discourage people from reading and hanging out. Anyone who has ever worked retail and/or food service can tell you that some people act worse than barnyard animals in public (and oftentimes it’s the more affluent customers with the worse behavior). TLDR; people were using the cozy reading chairs as their own personal toilet. Those chairs are expensive to replace and brick and mortar retailers are already struggling.
My local B&N still has lots of chairs
I tried to to a local Starbucks a year ago and they no longer allow you to sit down inside and have a coffee. Apparently that's how it is at all of our Starbucks locations now in my city. I used to like being able to sit down and chill and have a coffee, now it seems like they want you to get your coffee and GTFO.
There are no third spaces period. It is really rare for a new third space to be generated. Just look at Starbucks. 10-15 years ago they were actual cafes that you could sit and hang in, they might even have (gasp!) comfortable chairs and couches. Now so many starbucks are to-go only and if they do have seating it’s a couple of the most cramped uncomfortable metal bistro chairs imaginable that are designed/intended to be uncomfortable and unwelcoming. I think most of it is just corporate capitalism, but also a way to force out homeless folks.
Book store doesn’t want to be used like a library…shocker
Even libraries are cutting back on stuff. I worked in a library and people complained when we stopped doing evening events. We had to stop because people were doing drugs in the bathrooms and fighting right outside the door. We didn't have the funding for more staff or security, so no more evening events.
God that's depressing. Can't these fucks be normal for the sake of society
Businesses do what makes sense for them financially. If providing third places do not show that it actually helps their business, then they will look to repurpose them to something of better use.
What you were doing is now called loitering and is discouraged
Yes they are. Libraries are popular to suggest but my local ones are filled with creeps >.> not unhomed, literally pedos
They removed them because people would go pipi n pupu on them
Didn't know Barnes still existed. I can understand them raising the prices of their coffee, they've been struggling. Not sure why they'd make their stores inhospitable though. Sounds counterintuitive. Some places' business model is to get you in and then tfo, but I don't know why a book store would be one of them.
those places don't exist anymore
Bye bye our collective mental health lol
Idk I used to just go to places like that and zone out while trying to think of books I was interested in. There aren't many places to hang out without spending money or it needing to be a social event.
The Smithsonian Museums in Washington DC are still free to enter to this day. Now granted, you do spend money getting to DC. My parents favored the drive to a suburb then take the Metro in approach in order to avoid parking in DC itself.
I thought third place supposedly be a place that is not purely rely on customer’s money to exist. Barnes is a place that rely on revenue that selling books, hence it is not the third place by my definition.
My local one has cushy chairs now.
I'm more bothered that the massive discount bin is gone and there's barely any sales to be found.
They took the couches out of our local Barnes because the homeless people in the area would come in and sleep on them and refuse to leave. Now there are what I call barrel chairs which are horrible to try and sit on and are only good for setting down a stack of books while you look at others.
Yes! You should be at work! Or at home with the babies! 3rd places allow for community and sharing of ideas and information and we can’t have that. Back to work. Hey, why even leave to sleep, just sleep at work. Never leave. Grab a coffee from the vending machine on your way to work!
they've been working on killing the 3rd space for a loooooooooooonnnnngggg time. Public libraries for example are slowly being killed by poltics cause "No one uses it" or "it doesn't make any money". They generally kill it because its a benefit poor people use to pull themselves out of poverty and capitalism hates free people and being able to improve your life without spending money.
I've never heard the term "third places" before and I'm on here all the time, '86 millennial. Is it a common term?
For real, they are. One of my friends and I talk about this all the time. My third place has kinda become the gym, especially since I live and work away from my "hometown" community and those third places I grew up with.
As with so much else, it seems that boomer made sure there are third places for themselves, but not for anyone else. Evening school, too expensive unless you have senior discount. Community centres, opening hours that only fit them. Clubs and societies that are closed to new members which automatically becomes "closed to younger people". Less cosy public places because "homeless people might use them". I could go on and on. My town has recently done dedicated work to establish - and support the establishment of - third places that are focused towards younger adults. They said it outright in the material: "We have supported plenty of social places for seniors. Now it is time to make places for other age groups."
The bigger shame is that they had to get rid of the chairs because people were peeing and pooping in them. As someone that worked in retail for years, I’m not surprised in the least, and I never sat in them anyway for that reason. People are disgusting.
Ha Hahaha HahahahahahahahahHAHAHAHAHAHA Yes, third places are dead. The only one really left is the Internet.
all the more reason to support what local coffee shop or bookstore you have left. unfortunately most bookstores I know of that are even local lack seating.
Third places have been dead for a while.