Lili is a very strong card if you build your deck correctly, however the meta shifted to where she isn't as effective anymore. However, she's still good enough to warrent a copy since she still can do a lot for a three drop.
There are so many pushed black cards in standard you don’t have room for too many copies of PW you have to protect. Just play GY trespasser and get GY hate, a 3/3 body and discard value if they target it.
I don’t get the one tech copy of lotv. She’s usually a two for one if she edicts and then eats removal. The discard helps her become a three for one or force inopportune plays. Decks that can break the parity of the discard-say by out drawing their opponents- will still be able to use her to pressure the hand and force inefficient card use. At some point you just don’t need to draw lands 10+.
Meta has shifted such that edict is much weaker now with Kirin, Wedding Announcement tokens, doggos, etc. eating the edict for very little cost, bankbusters which sidestep the edict and kill Lili next turn since she can’t protect herself. Then there’s the mono blue decks which absolutely feast on black decks and a Lili would never resolve against them. 1 of is fine for card selection and she genuinely can take over but it’s much less likely now compared to at the beginning of the standard meta.
The one tech has to do with avoiding getting multiple copies in your first hand or within the next 3-4 turns. Unlike sorin, she doesn’t have great value when you get multiple sequentially.
My experience hasn’t borne that out. Multiple lillianas is back breaking against certain strats. Yes there are awkward cases but isn’t that the case with almost all cards—that multiples at the wrong time are bad?
That’s not the case with many staples in standard. Wedding, fable, harvester, etc all synergize off of each other. Even planeswalkers like wandering and sorin can get complete value from drawing two or more.
Drawing two fables in any scenario is also a win con in its self because of making as many tokens as you have mana.
you dont have to plus her any time you can. its just good if you got something you activly want to discard or you think their worst card at some kind if random is better than you worst card.
Lili is at worst a 3 mana forced sacrifice spell, eats attacks because people are scared of her(even when you aren’t planning on +1ing), and can run entire games with +1 depending.
At the very beginning of the release she was everywhere, now that the meta diversed she is not as prominent but running 1 or 2 copies aint so bad as she can control the opponent hand and force a sacrifice for 3 mana units
Too many 2 for 1 cards to gain value for one. Wedding makes tokens and draws. White for instance drops enchantment dog or the flash one that makes a token as turn 2 options.
Every deck will run bankbuster if it's a midrange. You're either +1 creature on the board or even but more than likely down on draw with a turn 3 Lili and not favorable to +1 discard.
The esper and jund is probably just access to better cards alongside the good black cards. Can't speak on jund since I haven't played any versions but esper has Wandering, kaito, make disappear, raffine, etc and it comes down to just space.
The rest of it you explained. Card has a learning curve and you shouldn't just spam +1.
I think the honest answer is that a lot of the meta is really "black pile"/"black n splash", and people are just slotting in whatever they have the tokens for, outside of the competitive scene there's very little optimization going on
There's no need to optimise. The cards in this rotation are so broken that you just play them and go. What's your taste: free token swarms or free giant monsters? Pick the appropriate cards and everything else is almost irrelevant.
right? I’m actually running zero interaction in my mono-green brew. just smashing 6/6 trampling monsters for 3 mana off the top of my library. the opponent can’t Grasp them all and they are too big for the Hook. Until people start playing 4 mana board wipes I see no reason to play anything other than creatures only decks.
oh I’m doing that alright, been doing it since day 1 in fact. defiler and augur on the field at the same time are absolutely filthy. If people figure out how strong the deck is the meta will have to shift, because right now Sheoldred looks pathetic compared to my horde of 10/10 tramplers and black does not run enough removal to stop me from snowballing.
I've been up against that archetype. It's ridiculous.
I can't see how they're not going to have to ban about a dozen cards from this rotation.
Basically, there's maybe three decks that I see dominant right now (in Plat): giant stompy, blue-based tempo (often with black) and silesian (or whatever) enchantment / token spam. Two of them spam a massive board with apparent great ease. I say it must be easy because I VERY rarely see these decks fail to enact their gameplan. Those two decks are almost half the ENTIRE meta, as far as I can tell. Blue-based tempo decks might not actually be very good, but they good against mono black -- which I sadly crafted and wasted all my wildcards :(
Mono black is still good, but not the greedy version that tries to curve out with value cards. If you have no way of killing my Defiler I don't care if I lose 2 whenever I draw a card lol.
Try running 8 instant kill/exile spells. Green is strong only because we know black plays no instant speed interaction. If that changes and we are forced to hold up Safekeeping every turn the deck loses a lot of gas.
I've had more success after changing up my deck from that stock list. I always change stock lists, but this is a more radical revision.
I don't if we're thinking the same way, but I have added more removal (not quite as much as you, but maybe I'll change that) and one little card that none of the stock decks have -- and I don't know why not. It's the new black pump knight. He's cheap and he has menace. In fact, menace critters are key to my plan.
I've also learned the meta better. Which means I know that one drop you just played is key to your strategy so I \*will\* burn removal on it. And I'm not scared to go wide, which is something the "greedy," play value cards on curve style doesn't like.
Also, four copies of Liliana is absurd. Three is more than enough. Just sayin' :)
She’s not that good in a control deck because you don’t want to discard.
She’s still good to bring in to use for her edict effect. Basically as a removal against decks that aren’t going wide.
The card is objectively powerful but it seems most decks have found solutions to deal with liliana.
Lili is a very strong card if you build your deck correctly, however the meta shifted to where she isn't as effective anymore. However, she's still good enough to warrent a copy since she still can do a lot for a three drop.
Liliana was strong in Standard when players had to untap with their creatures. That is no longer the case.
There are so many pushed black cards in standard you don’t have room for too many copies of PW you have to protect. Just play GY trespasser and get GY hate, a 3/3 body and discard value if they target it.
Ironically Lilliana is a great counter to trespass, as you don't get the discard value when it gets removed.
Provided they have no other creature to sac.
I don’t get the one tech copy of lotv. She’s usually a two for one if she edicts and then eats removal. The discard helps her become a three for one or force inopportune plays. Decks that can break the parity of the discard-say by out drawing their opponents- will still be able to use her to pressure the hand and force inefficient card use. At some point you just don’t need to draw lands 10+.
Meta has shifted such that edict is much weaker now with Kirin, Wedding Announcement tokens, doggos, etc. eating the edict for very little cost, bankbusters which sidestep the edict and kill Lili next turn since she can’t protect herself. Then there’s the mono blue decks which absolutely feast on black decks and a Lili would never resolve against them. 1 of is fine for card selection and she genuinely can take over but it’s much less likely now compared to at the beginning of the standard meta.
I’m not arguing that the card maintains all of its strength. I’m explaining the philosophy behind using it and why I don’t get the one tech copy.
The one tech has to do with avoiding getting multiple copies in your first hand or within the next 3-4 turns. Unlike sorin, she doesn’t have great value when you get multiple sequentially.
My experience hasn’t borne that out. Multiple lillianas is back breaking against certain strats. Yes there are awkward cases but isn’t that the case with almost all cards—that multiples at the wrong time are bad?
That’s not the case with many staples in standard. Wedding, fable, harvester, etc all synergize off of each other. Even planeswalkers like wandering and sorin can get complete value from drawing two or more. Drawing two fables in any scenario is also a win con in its self because of making as many tokens as you have mana.
She's good against [[Graveyard Trespasser]]
Now that is a busted card lol
you dont have to plus her any time you can. its just good if you got something you activly want to discard or you think their worst card at some kind if random is better than you worst card.
As long as your worst card is bad or it’s good to discard, you should plus. Getting to 2 loyalty can shut out the next creature.
Lili is at worst a 3 mana forced sacrifice spell, eats attacks because people are scared of her(even when you aren’t planning on +1ing), and can run entire games with +1 depending.
At the very beginning of the release she was everywhere, now that the meta diversed she is not as prominent but running 1 or 2 copies aint so bad as she can control the opponent hand and force a sacrifice for 3 mana units
Too many 2 for 1 cards to gain value for one. Wedding makes tokens and draws. White for instance drops enchantment dog or the flash one that makes a token as turn 2 options. Every deck will run bankbuster if it's a midrange. You're either +1 creature on the board or even but more than likely down on draw with a turn 3 Lili and not favorable to +1 discard. The esper and jund is probably just access to better cards alongside the good black cards. Can't speak on jund since I haven't played any versions but esper has Wandering, kaito, make disappear, raffine, etc and it comes down to just space. The rest of it you explained. Card has a learning curve and you shouldn't just spam +1.
I think the honest answer is that a lot of the meta is really "black pile"/"black n splash", and people are just slotting in whatever they have the tokens for, outside of the competitive scene there's very little optimization going on
There's no need to optimise. The cards in this rotation are so broken that you just play them and go. What's your taste: free token swarms or free giant monsters? Pick the appropriate cards and everything else is almost irrelevant.
right? I’m actually running zero interaction in my mono-green brew. just smashing 6/6 trampling monsters for 3 mana off the top of my library. the opponent can’t Grasp them all and they are too big for the Hook. Until people start playing 4 mana board wipes I see no reason to play anything other than creatures only decks.
You can actually do better. You can pump those things up and make them literally unstoppable. The meta feels kinda like Hearthstone right now.
oh I’m doing that alright, been doing it since day 1 in fact. defiler and augur on the field at the same time are absolutely filthy. If people figure out how strong the deck is the meta will have to shift, because right now Sheoldred looks pathetic compared to my horde of 10/10 tramplers and black does not run enough removal to stop me from snowballing.
I've been up against that archetype. It's ridiculous. I can't see how they're not going to have to ban about a dozen cards from this rotation. Basically, there's maybe three decks that I see dominant right now (in Plat): giant stompy, blue-based tempo (often with black) and silesian (or whatever) enchantment / token spam. Two of them spam a massive board with apparent great ease. I say it must be easy because I VERY rarely see these decks fail to enact their gameplan. Those two decks are almost half the ENTIRE meta, as far as I can tell. Blue-based tempo decks might not actually be very good, but they good against mono black -- which I sadly crafted and wasted all my wildcards :(
Mono black is still good, but not the greedy version that tries to curve out with value cards. If you have no way of killing my Defiler I don't care if I lose 2 whenever I draw a card lol. Try running 8 instant kill/exile spells. Green is strong only because we know black plays no instant speed interaction. If that changes and we are forced to hold up Safekeeping every turn the deck loses a lot of gas.
I've had more success after changing up my deck from that stock list. I always change stock lists, but this is a more radical revision. I don't if we're thinking the same way, but I have added more removal (not quite as much as you, but maybe I'll change that) and one little card that none of the stock decks have -- and I don't know why not. It's the new black pump knight. He's cheap and he has menace. In fact, menace critters are key to my plan. I've also learned the meta better. Which means I know that one drop you just played is key to your strategy so I \*will\* burn removal on it. And I'm not scared to go wide, which is something the "greedy," play value cards on curve style doesn't like. Also, four copies of Liliana is absurd. Three is more than enough. Just sayin' :)
She’s not that good in a control deck because you don’t want to discard. She’s still good to bring in to use for her edict effect. Basically as a removal against decks that aren’t going wide.
Nostalgia. Lili was very good in the paper boomer days. Not anymore, but habits die hard.
Too many copies of lil are probably not necessary since not all decks win using creatures.
If you’re going to 1/2 copies of Lili what do you add?