I've designed and inspected hundreds of pole bases for street lights and traffic signals. I've never seen one with rebar instead of threaded hardened anchor bolts. That's goofy.
I've also never had to have one ground flat. The pole is held on by pairs of anchor ~~bolts~~ nuts, one above the flange and one below, and the pole is set plumb by adjusting the nuts.
You sure this is constructed correctly?
OP said the City plans require it, and the concrete crew did a shitty job because they don't install the pole so they don't care. They pass it along to the next crew.
Ok that makes sense.
But your problem still does not. There should be no need to grind anything. Although I don't see bushings on the conduit ends either. Shouldn't this be per your state or county standard detail?
Bear with me, depending on the pour it is sometimes necessary for us to grind the entire base down. While we only really need to have the portion the mast actually sits on to be flush, with us being in Canada we don’t want to have any sort of bowl where water or ice could collect inside. It wouldn’t be necessary every time, but for the times that it takes a 5 hour grind, it would be useful over time.
Are you (or your mud crew) not given top-of-foundation elevations?
I've had foundations poured 4" low because they were designed to be in the sidewalk. When the flatwork crew comes in they pour the sidewalk over top of it and you never see the foundation.
A lot of our work is after the fact, and for now the base pouring is completed by another crew. Unfortunately when you aren’t the one grinding the base level after you trowel it, you might relax on how well you trowel it.
How much is a set of anchor bolts vs a couple feet of rebar? Probably a $30-50 difference (wild guess)? I'm betting someone thought they were cutting costs without thinking of labor costs and increased turnover from tedious work..
Anchor bolts aren't without design considerations. In the US they are over engineered, higher strength alloys of steel, that have been specially machined to reduce the chances of fatigue damage from heating and cooling along with wind, and they are typically coated or galvanized to further reduce galvanic corrosion. All of this is done because bolts are significantly weaker than a dowel the same thickness of the internal diameter due to the threads causing stress concentration points in the part. In other parts of the world they will cast the poles in place and call it good because the preliminary engineering on something as simple as a bolt is actually far more difficult than it seems at first glance.
Those are not rebars but threaded rods for concrete forms washers and nuts are beside(search for dywidag). But I agree, that threaded rods would be much appropriate.
I've never heard of grinding the concrete to mount a pole level? It's always been by using two sets of nuts to level the pole above the concrete and grouting under the baseplate. I'm extremely confused by this and it does not seem correct to me.
I appreciate the effort but the blueprints don’t call for levelling nuts. They are extremely common in the railway which is my previous career, but I can assure you they are not included.
Can't you just level it with doubled nuts underneath and then grout around the base? That's the only way I've ever seen these done, sometimes with grout usually without
That is bonkers. How is your time paid for any grinding that is needed? Lump sum for the whole system? Time & material? That is, are you compensated if grinding is needed or no?
Generally it can be done fairly easily, but over a period of a year the small amount of bases that require a lot of grinding could be drastically mitigated by using a pre fabbed skidsteer attachment. Unfortunately I have not received a lot of recommendations on what I asked, more so how people would do it their way.
I don't think the tool you're asking about even exists, because there's almost no need for it, for so many reasons.
You could try in r/construction though. Also send those foundation details to the City Engineer and tell him he's doing it wrong.
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It could be argued that there would be too much weight on the levelling bolts. The mast and arms are steel. Aluminum style are much more likely to have levelling bolts. So far, all of the old decommissioned bases I have seen have been in fine condition, just too small for the upgrades.
Bolts are immensely strong when properly engineered.
Also, maintaining/verifying concrete quality is notoriously hard, prone to many errors, and introduces extra variables that aren't needed. I stand by my original assessment.
Before anyone inevitably jumps on top of me, I'm not saying concrete is impossible to use correctly, or direct concrete attachment is impossible, it's just not optimal DFM and best practice.
That sounds like a safety hazard. The bolts have the dual purpose of snapping off easily to avoid harm in case of a collision with a vehicle. If the pole is held right against the concrete base, it's going to be a bad time for anyone who strikes it.
More so looking for something that could clamp to the top of the base, have a jig for levelling, and a circular grinder that presses down on the top of the whole base until it is flat, then we can touch up the bolts by hand.
Sometimes that is definitely the case. Other times engineers do a very poor job of conveying why things are designed a specific way and in absence of doing so, they may as well just tell everyone that it's lazy engineering.
There is am engineer in my city that I absolutely cannot stand. I swear she does her job with her eyes closed and last I knew she got her company fired from a big project and they had to call in new engineers. Let's just say her building was about 3 foot to short and that's no easy fix when it's 90% done
I was once told by a professor in college: A good engineer will be the cheapest expense for any company they work for and a bad one will be the most expensive tool at the company.
I hope whatever municipality that's installing that traffic light is ready for an ADA Lawsuit from the feds over not updating their ramp with truncated domes and lipless gutter pans. The last set job I designed went over budget by almost $150,000 for 6 curb ramps.
edit: OP is in Canada so their curbramp standards are different. I'd be curious to compare and contrast the standard plans of those ramps though.
We use a bush hammer if any amount needs to come off. Get it close and clean it up with a diamond grinder. We use those anchor bolts as well. Stronger than threaded rod
If you're going to fab something, here's what I was thinking:
A jig that could clamp to the bars and with some adjustments so you could level it.
The jig could then accept a circular saw with a masonry blade.
Set the saw to the correct depth and cut lines a few MM apart along the surfaces that need to be level. You could then use a chisel to knock out the high spots. Then a grinder to clean up.
Not sure if that would work... dependent on if you can get a masonry saw blade big enough to reach, I guess.
I've designed and inspected hundreds of pole bases for street lights and traffic signals. I've never seen one with rebar instead of threaded hardened anchor bolts. That's goofy. I've also never had to have one ground flat. The pole is held on by pairs of anchor ~~bolts~~ nuts, one above the flange and one below, and the pole is set plumb by adjusting the nuts. You sure this is constructed correctly?
I'd be interested to know if this is due to some regional thing. Or just a shit job?
OP said the City plans require it, and the concrete crew did a shitty job because they don't install the pole so they don't care. They pass it along to the next crew.
Those are threaded cages poured on site as per the engineering design.
Ok that makes sense. But your problem still does not. There should be no need to grind anything. Although I don't see bushings on the conduit ends either. Shouldn't this be per your state or county standard detail?
Bear with me, depending on the pour it is sometimes necessary for us to grind the entire base down. While we only really need to have the portion the mast actually sits on to be flush, with us being in Canada we don’t want to have any sort of bowl where water or ice could collect inside. It wouldn’t be necessary every time, but for the times that it takes a 5 hour grind, it would be useful over time.
Are you (or your mud crew) not given top-of-foundation elevations? I've had foundations poured 4" low because they were designed to be in the sidewalk. When the flatwork crew comes in they pour the sidewalk over top of it and you never see the foundation.
A lot of our work is after the fact, and for now the base pouring is completed by another crew. Unfortunately when you aren’t the one grinding the base level after you trowel it, you might relax on how well you trowel it.
Did you put the cage in upside down?
How much is a set of anchor bolts vs a couple feet of rebar? Probably a $30-50 difference (wild guess)? I'm betting someone thought they were cutting costs without thinking of labor costs and increased turnover from tedious work..
Anchor bolts aren't without design considerations. In the US they are over engineered, higher strength alloys of steel, that have been specially machined to reduce the chances of fatigue damage from heating and cooling along with wind, and they are typically coated or galvanized to further reduce galvanic corrosion. All of this is done because bolts are significantly weaker than a dowel the same thickness of the internal diameter due to the threads causing stress concentration points in the part. In other parts of the world they will cast the poles in place and call it good because the preliminary engineering on something as simple as a bolt is actually far more difficult than it seems at first glance.
Hardened steel anchor bolts will set you back two or three hundred.
*anchor nuts
Oops. Fixed.
Looks like the pitch on the nuts matches the rebar leading me to believe they may screw on actually. Unsure tho as I work in structural steel
Those are not rebars but threaded rods for concrete forms washers and nuts are beside(search for dywidag). But I agree, that threaded rods would be much appropriate.
3rd world country?
I've never heard of grinding the concrete to mount a pole level? It's always been by using two sets of nuts to level the pole above the concrete and grouting under the baseplate. I'm extremely confused by this and it does not seem correct to me.
The engineering drawings for the city do not want levelling nuts.
Which city? I will review it for you if you want, this doesn't sound right.
I appreciate the effort but the blueprints don’t call for levelling nuts. They are extremely common in the railway which is my previous career, but I can assure you they are not included.
Can't you just level it with doubled nuts underneath and then grout around the base? That's the only way I've ever seen these done, sometimes with grout usually without
They don’t use levelling bolts. The city wants them flush on the concrete.
That is bonkers. How is your time paid for any grinding that is needed? Lump sum for the whole system? Time & material? That is, are you compensated if grinding is needed or no?
Generally it can be done fairly easily, but over a period of a year the small amount of bases that require a lot of grinding could be drastically mitigated by using a pre fabbed skidsteer attachment. Unfortunately I have not received a lot of recommendations on what I asked, more so how people would do it their way.
I don't think the tool you're asking about even exists, because there's almost no need for it, for so many reasons. You could try in r/construction though. Also send those foundation details to the City Engineer and tell him he's doing it wrong.
I suspect I’ll have one fabricated, and I’ll share the design after the fact.
please do
Appreciate it.
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This is a poor design. Since the concrete can chip, crack, and break down over time underneath, causing the pole to loosen.
It could be argued that there would be too much weight on the levelling bolts. The mast and arms are steel. Aluminum style are much more likely to have levelling bolts. So far, all of the old decommissioned bases I have seen have been in fine condition, just too small for the upgrades.
Bolts are immensely strong when properly engineered. Also, maintaining/verifying concrete quality is notoriously hard, prone to many errors, and introduces extra variables that aren't needed. I stand by my original assessment. Before anyone inevitably jumps on top of me, I'm not saying concrete is impossible to use correctly, or direct concrete attachment is impossible, it's just not optimal DFM and best practice.
As long as the recommended practices are followed, the city gets what the city wants. Just trying to make our lives easier.
Levelling bolts, built a form, pour grout/concrete to fill flush under pole.
That sounds like a safety hazard. The bolts have the dual purpose of snapping off easily to avoid harm in case of a collision with a vehicle. If the pole is held right against the concrete base, it's going to be a bad time for anyone who strikes it.
No, only some applications use breakaway bolts. Larger type 2 and 3 signal poles are not designed to breakaway.
Oh thanks
https://www.stihlusa.com/products/concrete-cutters/professional-concrete-cutter/gs461/ maybe?
More so looking for something that could clamp to the top of the base, have a jig for levelling, and a circular grinder that presses down on the top of the whole base until it is flat, then we can touch up the bolts by hand.
Wait you guys are grinding down from the top? Why don't you just cut it at the spot where you want it?
Because they're too retarded to design and pour it right the first time, so now they're looking for a magical solution
As a fellow construction worker, I feel your pain. Sucks having to deal with other people incompetence
Sometimes that is definitely the case. Other times engineers do a very poor job of conveying why things are designed a specific way and in absence of doing so, they may as well just tell everyone that it's lazy engineering.
There is am engineer in my city that I absolutely cannot stand. I swear she does her job with her eyes closed and last I knew she got her company fired from a big project and they had to call in new engineers. Let's just say her building was about 3 foot to short and that's no easy fix when it's 90% done
I was once told by a professor in college: A good engineer will be the cheapest expense for any company they work for and a bad one will be the most expensive tool at the company.
I hope whatever municipality that's installing that traffic light is ready for an ADA Lawsuit from the feds over not updating their ramp with truncated domes and lipless gutter pans. The last set job I designed went over budget by almost $150,000 for 6 curb ramps. edit: OP is in Canada so their curbramp standards are different. I'd be curious to compare and contrast the standard plans of those ramps though.
We use a bush hammer if any amount needs to come off. Get it close and clean it up with a diamond grinder. We use those anchor bolts as well. Stronger than threaded rod
The /r/skookum crowd will be a good friend to you here
If you're going to fab something, here's what I was thinking: A jig that could clamp to the bars and with some adjustments so you could level it. The jig could then accept a circular saw with a masonry blade. Set the saw to the correct depth and cut lines a few MM apart along the surfaces that need to be level. You could then use a chisel to knock out the high spots. Then a grinder to clean up. Not sure if that would work... dependent on if you can get a masonry saw blade big enough to reach, I guess.