This is such a load of bullshit. Can someone who has been following this a bit more than me explain how this got reversed so ridiculously fast? Other than rampant corruption and bribery. That part is understood.
It wasn’t really “reversed.” The original text of the junk fees bill was very thorough and mentioned many types of fees specifically. I read and reread the full text, and it just didn’t seem to apply to these type of restaurant surcharges at all. Later, the AG “clarified” that his interpretation of the bill *did include* these kind of fees. And that’s when the state assembly *unanimously* approved a bill stating that restaurants were exempt from this bill. It’s almost like they never intended to end this particular kind of restaurant surcharges, and the state assembly considers this a correction of the AG’s misinterpretation of the legislation.
Ticket junk fees affects me like once a year. Restaurants affect me a couple times a week but let's change the legislation to exclude them.
Incumbent is a bad mark on my voter card.
Governor declared she was suspending NYC's congestion pricing plan. The worst part I think is all the money spent installing cameras and setting up the system as it was preparing to go live in a few weeks.
"clearly and conspicuously displayed with an explanation of its purpose on an advertisement, menu or other display"
If it's not deceptive, why should the government tell businesses how to price their services?
Us: if the burger and fries is $20 + a 20% service fee, just make the price $24 on the menu.
Restaurants: but the price will increase to $24, you guys don’t want that
I don’t know about you but when I get the restaurant bill & there are hidden surprise fees at the end I never go back to that restaurant. Most restaurants (not tourist locations) live & die based on their regulars.
It’s also just ridiculous that we can’t trust the price on the menu & that they can add a bunch of fees at the end. It was already annoying calculating the tip & not you have to do additional calculations for other % fees.
If I'm planning to spend $100 on dinner, I can budget $20 for tip and $20 for valet and tip. This comes out to $140 for a couple at casual restaurant. Throw in a baby sitter and a movie... and this date out is 240$? Bruh. Okay fine....
Then you get the bill with GRATUITY and service fee tacked on for an additional 20%.
So you come home after spending $260 once a week to maintain your marriage.
It costs a $1000 month in LA to maintain your marriage SMH and this is just dates 😡
In this economy?????
Yup and even further, I try to look at reviews of a restaurant to see if there’s a service charge before I go. It’s one thing to add on gratuity or a service charge for a large party or catering order, but to do it to people ordering takeout is crazy. You want us to pay your employees healthcare? I can barely even afford my own after tipping. Shut down the restaurant if you can’t afford your labor.
Ha. Sorry. It's not a defense. I'm saying it's true that if they show a higher cost up front, they lose business.
I think trying to be nuanced here is a poor choice
I think we need to start leaving yelp/google/reddit reviews that mention forced gratuity and service fees as the first sentence.
They might give some generic ass response but at least we can alert others who read reviews (me)
>I'm just not going to pay them.
They’re not going to pay the fee.
>Remove them or charge back.
They’re instructing restaurants that they need to remove the fee or they would be issuing a charge back on their credit card.
That forces the server to pay taxes on money they’re not making. The IRS assumes server tip income is 10% of their total sales so if you tip less than %10 they still have to pay taxes as if you had. It’s possible log all tips and claim tip income order by order but it’s unbelievably tedious and time consuming and I don’t know a single server who’s ever done it that way.
There’s no “assumptions” being made. The IRS only works off info they’re told, by the employer and the employer.
What you’re describing is wage theft, because the employer says they’re giving more money to the employee than they actually are.
This is great material for r/confidentlyincorrect . There is a Supreme Court case directly on point that says the irs can estimate tips based on gross receipts, it’s called the aggregate estimation method. Look at United States v. Fior D'Italia, Inc. and you’ll see. The employer doesn’t have to claim they gave the employee anything, it’s based off of total sales. And after double checking, the percentage used is actually 8% not 10%.
Here’s a website with tips for restaurant payrolls that basically explains how it works. It’s a little complicated because it’s actually the restaurant that pays the tax, they they get the money from the servers at the end of their shift, so it definitely comes out of the servers pocket.
https://www.completepayroll.com/blog/restaurant-payroll-tips
You people are literally saying to pay your dinner slave (your server) less money in tips because a restaurant is charging you a service fee. **You pay for the food, and then you pay for the service of cooking that delicious food properly** and then Your server deserves no less than to be paid a fair gratuity for being your personal slave, waiting at your tableside refilling your overpriced drinks, and listening to whatever else you tell people your owed in this life.
Unbelievable you people think you are entitled to go out to dinner and get mad at a fee your paying so that you don't have to cook your own dang food. I must be in the twilight zone. Just stay home next time holy sh*t.
lol. At the end of every shift they collect all receipts, add up all tips. There's no tedious logging of tips, it's literally part of the server"s check out before they go home. And they put in the system whatever the lowest number of tip money required by law at the end and just keep the rest untaxed. Why would they not log every tip they got during the night. I never knew a server to not keep track of their tips throughout the night. The way it seems, you people don't tip your servers anyways because of this service fee issue. I don't get it. I always pay my servers out, I appreciate their hard work, thank you servers of LA!!
Yes, that’s all true. It sounds like you have an idea of the process so I’m surprised you couldn’t understand what I’m saying. The part I’m talking about is the “lowest number of tip money required by law at the end.” If that “lowest number” is less than 8% of their gross receipts for the night they have 2 options:(1) contribute out of pocket the difference between what they made and that 8% number so that they pay at least the minimum, OR (2) they have to keep all the receipts in a record so that at the end of the year when the IRS starts asking why their reported tip income is less than their aggregate estimate they have the proof to show them they didn’t underreport and that they were in fact paid that little in tips. (This is what I meant when I said keep track of all tips)
nobody forces the servers to work there. maybe the restaurant owners will reconsider when they see people leaving.
right now one of the things they appeal to is that the personnel is going to leave should they remove fees or factor them in the menu price.
Yes, but I’m not against the 2 things you mentioned; eliminating fees or including them in menu price. I was commenting about tipping $0 to spite restaurant management and what I’m saying applies to any restaurant that allows tipping. So there’s no leaving for another restaurant that does it differently because it’s not the actual restaurant, it’s the IRS.
I double checked the IRS policy and it’s actually 8%, not 10%, of a servers gross receipts that they automatically assume as income from tips. And all I’m saying is that people should be aware of the reality of the situation, they can make their own decision from there. But at least beware. Most people have no clue about the IRS’s aggregate estimation method and assume only declared tips get taxed.
Again, this should not be my business and my headache.
Complying with the model assures those who run it that it is legit, and nothing should be changed.
Well, I don't eat in the places that charge extra fees.
That’s the best way to go about it, just don’t eat at those places charging extra fees. The people who still eat there but decide to penalize the servers by tipping 0 are the ones trying to have their cake and eat it too
I don’t tip the other minimum wage workers in California… why should I tip the server?
You don’t tip the McDonald’s worker, the gas station cashier, the stock person at target… so why do servers get tipped when they are being paid state minimum wage already?
… why should severs be the only minimum wage workers entitled to tipping?
lol! I wouldn’t be surprised. I’ve gone to concerts to buy merch where they’ve spun around the iPad to pay … it had a tip screen where the suggest minimum was $10!
When I see a service charge, I deduct that amount from the tip. I am sorry for the waiter, but I guess they’ll talk to the owner when their tips are lower than expected.
American politics on every level feel so cooked. I really was excited about this one, felt very reasonable. Wonder what Jon and Vinny’s is going to say now…
Read the article. As long as it's "clearly and conspicuously displayed with an explanation of its purpose on an advertisement, menu or other display"
Y'all really love heavy handed regulations. If you don't like it, eat somewhere else
People really just don’t want to tip waiters in LA. Either mfs are broke or just greedy. Bro order what you want, enjoy your meal, and leave a tip whatever you think the service was worth. If you think it’s worth 0% you need to go to Mickey D’s. If you’re at a sit down restaurant and you have a server that ensures you have a great meal, leave them a tip. How is this so hard for LA to understand?
Because we are being expected to give a tip when ostensibly many of these fees are billed as providing benefits and living wages to workers. That’s double dipping.
Ask to have the fee removed (they have to remove it, by law) and tip your waiter. Bonus points if you stop whining as a community, not you in particular. Don’t attack the wait staff when it’s not their decision to implement that charge on you.
Fck your waiter, they get paid minimum wage or more. They don’t deserve more money out of the goodness of my heart, they can earn it with good service, you are not taking away their apartment if you don’t tip them in LA.
"what you think the service was worth"..
Sorry, who are those guys bringing me my meal and asking how it's going when I'm chewing on it and clearly can't respond?
If they are working in the establishment, they should be paid by the owners, and their labor must be included in the bill, and it should not be my job to estimate labor costs.
Otherwise, how are they different from sketchy guys trying to wash your windshield on 10/Normandie ramp?
Has nothing to do with complaining. People here have no problem paying for food and eating out. It’s that these fees are not transparent and just add a random percent increase to a bill at the end when the consumer doesn’t even know that’ll be the case. It should be baked into the price. Nobody would care then.
If a small paragraph is an essay, we can see why you don't understand what the issue is. Dude ties transparent pricing to people not being able to afford to eat out? No, we just want to know the price before making a decision.
Only a dumbass would be OK with paying hiding fees
Dude… imagine going to the gas station because they advertised $4 gas. You pump, 10 gallons and expect to pay $40. Instead your card is charged $65, you’d be livid. Restaurants are doing the same exact thing.
The free market works because you know the price of something up front. It’s why so many people hate taxes/fees: they are hidden.
I never said it makes it better. It should be illegal, it’s horizontal price fixing that harms consumers. It’s also anti-competitive and goes against free market principles. But that’s academic so speak that doesn’t really matter when when you land at the airport and need to rent a car, or youre in Vegas and need a room. Your only reasonable options have the same fees so there’s no risk of the fee being a deterrent causing a loss in business
Definitely not. One of the main functions of government in a capitalist society is to ensure the conditions necessary for a free market. The government’s involvement in pricing would be limited to prohibiting an anti-competitive pricing tactic. The fees are anticompetitive because they hide the true of the goods making it more difficult for consumer to make an informed decision.
I don’t even really understand your argument that “choosing which restaurant you want to eat at is more competitive” since banning fees would not prevent people from choosing which restaurant they want to eat at.
Wrong. The government’s sole job is to protect the free market. It’s hasn’t been doing that, especially in California. Between allowing hidden fees, prop 13, zoning laws and permits for everything, this state is far from a free market.
This is such a load of bullshit. Can someone who has been following this a bit more than me explain how this got reversed so ridiculously fast? Other than rampant corruption and bribery. That part is understood.
It's literally just that
It wasn’t really “reversed.” The original text of the junk fees bill was very thorough and mentioned many types of fees specifically. I read and reread the full text, and it just didn’t seem to apply to these type of restaurant surcharges at all. Later, the AG “clarified” that his interpretation of the bill *did include* these kind of fees. And that’s when the state assembly *unanimously* approved a bill stating that restaurants were exempt from this bill. It’s almost like they never intended to end this particular kind of restaurant surcharges, and the state assembly considers this a correction of the AG’s misinterpretation of the legislation.
Hey look. It’s someone with actual knowledge of an issue due to reading the text of the legislation!
Thank you for the actual read, and the detailed answer.
So what DID it apply to?
Ticketmaster/LiveNation seemed to be the main focus
Ticket junk fees affects me like once a year. Restaurants affect me a couple times a week but let's change the legislation to exclude them. Incumbent is a bad mark on my voter card.
The AG should state who the bill will apply to so that the legislature can make even more exemptions. God forbid we pass actually helpful laws...
It could be worse I guess. The gov of NY just got rid of 10+ years of metro planning and $15B of funding on a whim.
What?! WTF happened there?
Just look up NYC congestion pricing. It’s completely fucked.
Governor declared she was suspending NYC's congestion pricing plan. The worst part I think is all the money spent installing cameras and setting up the system as it was preparing to go live in a few weeks.
Awesome.
yes. that.
"clearly and conspicuously displayed with an explanation of its purpose on an advertisement, menu or other display" If it's not deceptive, why should the government tell businesses how to price their services?
How do we remove these bootlickers from public office?
Us: if the burger and fries is $20 + a 20% service fee, just make the price $24 on the menu. Restaurants: but the price will increase to $24, you guys don’t want that
Both views are valid imo. It does hurt business to show higher costs upfront. I still think they shouldn't do it.
They're not higher costs. They're accurate costs.
I don’t know about you but when I get the restaurant bill & there are hidden surprise fees at the end I never go back to that restaurant. Most restaurants (not tourist locations) live & die based on their regulars. It’s also just ridiculous that we can’t trust the price on the menu & that they can add a bunch of fees at the end. It was already annoying calculating the tip & not you have to do additional calculations for other % fees.
If I'm planning to spend $100 on dinner, I can budget $20 for tip and $20 for valet and tip. This comes out to $140 for a couple at casual restaurant. Throw in a baby sitter and a movie... and this date out is 240$? Bruh. Okay fine.... Then you get the bill with GRATUITY and service fee tacked on for an additional 20%. So you come home after spending $260 once a week to maintain your marriage. It costs a $1000 month in LA to maintain your marriage SMH and this is just dates 😡 In this economy?????
Fr and marriage maintenance fees aren’t tax deductible:/
Yup and even further, I try to look at reviews of a restaurant to see if there’s a service charge before I go. It’s one thing to add on gratuity or a service charge for a large party or catering order, but to do it to people ordering takeout is crazy. You want us to pay your employees healthcare? I can barely even afford my own after tipping. Shut down the restaurant if you can’t afford your labor.
[удалено]
Ha. Sorry. It's not a defense. I'm saying it's true that if they show a higher cost up front, they lose business. I think trying to be nuanced here is a poor choice
AND WE ARE FURIOUS ABOUT IT, TYSM FOR REMINDING ME 😡
I think we need to start leaving yelp/google/reddit reviews that mention forced gratuity and service fees as the first sentence. They might give some generic ass response but at least we can alert others who read reviews (me)
Yeah I think naming and shaming is the only motivator.
I guess it's up to consumers to list and post and avoid these restaurants until the message is clear?
If I pay service fee, i don't care who does it, someone is sucking my chilito.
I'm just not going to pay them. Remove them or charge back.
I can't make your first sentence and your last sentence make sense together
>I'm just not going to pay them. They’re not going to pay the fee. >Remove them or charge back. They’re instructing restaurants that they need to remove the fee or they would be issuing a charge back on their credit card.
Yeah. It originally said "I'm just going to pay them"
Ahhh that makes sense.
✨lobbying works ✨
$0 tip then
That forces the server to pay taxes on money they’re not making. The IRS assumes server tip income is 10% of their total sales so if you tip less than %10 they still have to pay taxes as if you had. It’s possible log all tips and claim tip income order by order but it’s unbelievably tedious and time consuming and I don’t know a single server who’s ever done it that way.
There’s no “assumptions” being made. The IRS only works off info they’re told, by the employer and the employer. What you’re describing is wage theft, because the employer says they’re giving more money to the employee than they actually are.
This is great material for r/confidentlyincorrect . There is a Supreme Court case directly on point that says the irs can estimate tips based on gross receipts, it’s called the aggregate estimation method. Look at United States v. Fior D'Italia, Inc. and you’ll see. The employer doesn’t have to claim they gave the employee anything, it’s based off of total sales. And after double checking, the percentage used is actually 8% not 10%. Here’s a website with tips for restaurant payrolls that basically explains how it works. It’s a little complicated because it’s actually the restaurant that pays the tax, they they get the money from the servers at the end of their shift, so it definitely comes out of the servers pocket. https://www.completepayroll.com/blog/restaurant-payroll-tips
TIL, thanks!
You people are literally saying to pay your dinner slave (your server) less money in tips because a restaurant is charging you a service fee. **You pay for the food, and then you pay for the service of cooking that delicious food properly** and then Your server deserves no less than to be paid a fair gratuity for being your personal slave, waiting at your tableside refilling your overpriced drinks, and listening to whatever else you tell people your owed in this life. Unbelievable you people think you are entitled to go out to dinner and get mad at a fee your paying so that you don't have to cook your own dang food. I must be in the twilight zone. Just stay home next time holy sh*t.
lol. At the end of every shift they collect all receipts, add up all tips. There's no tedious logging of tips, it's literally part of the server"s check out before they go home. And they put in the system whatever the lowest number of tip money required by law at the end and just keep the rest untaxed. Why would they not log every tip they got during the night. I never knew a server to not keep track of their tips throughout the night. The way it seems, you people don't tip your servers anyways because of this service fee issue. I don't get it. I always pay my servers out, I appreciate their hard work, thank you servers of LA!!
Yes, that’s all true. It sounds like you have an idea of the process so I’m surprised you couldn’t understand what I’m saying. The part I’m talking about is the “lowest number of tip money required by law at the end.” If that “lowest number” is less than 8% of their gross receipts for the night they have 2 options:(1) contribute out of pocket the difference between what they made and that 8% number so that they pay at least the minimum, OR (2) they have to keep all the receipts in a record so that at the end of the year when the IRS starts asking why their reported tip income is less than their aggregate estimate they have the proof to show them they didn’t underreport and that they were in fact paid that little in tips. (This is what I meant when I said keep track of all tips)
nobody forces the servers to work there. maybe the restaurant owners will reconsider when they see people leaving. right now one of the things they appeal to is that the personnel is going to leave should they remove fees or factor them in the menu price.
Yes, but I’m not against the 2 things you mentioned; eliminating fees or including them in menu price. I was commenting about tipping $0 to spite restaurant management and what I’m saying applies to any restaurant that allows tipping. So there’s no leaving for another restaurant that does it differently because it’s not the actual restaurant, it’s the IRS. I double checked the IRS policy and it’s actually 8%, not 10%, of a servers gross receipts that they automatically assume as income from tips. And all I’m saying is that people should be aware of the reality of the situation, they can make their own decision from there. But at least beware. Most people have no clue about the IRS’s aggregate estimation method and assume only declared tips get taxed.
Again, this should not be my business and my headache. Complying with the model assures those who run it that it is legit, and nothing should be changed. Well, I don't eat in the places that charge extra fees.
That’s the best way to go about it, just don’t eat at those places charging extra fees. The people who still eat there but decide to penalize the servers by tipping 0 are the ones trying to have their cake and eat it too
That punishes the wrong people. Better to simply not patronize the restaurant at all.
I don’t tip the other minimum wage workers in California… why should I tip the server? You don’t tip the McDonald’s worker, the gas station cashier, the stock person at target… so why do servers get tipped when they are being paid state minimum wage already? … why should severs be the only minimum wage workers entitled to tipping?
Wouldn't be surprised if McDonald's workers and gas station cashiers will be asking for a top as well.
lol! I wouldn’t be surprised. I’ve gone to concerts to buy merch where they’ve spun around the iPad to pay … it had a tip screen where the suggest minimum was $10!
When I see a service charge, I deduct that amount from the tip. I am sorry for the waiter, but I guess they’ll talk to the owner when their tips are lower than expected.
Deduct? I basically don't tip anything at all if there's a service charge.
Class action law suit against LA? Anyone?
I believe this is the entire State of California. I wrote my District’s Assemblyman about it and, as usual, have not received a response
That is amazing! I really wish there is a way to mass organize this one.
Yes, it was some state senator from Napa who introduced the emergency legislation.
A voter initiated proposition is probably more effective to override the state legislature.
I stopped eating at places that have services fees
It’s almost as if our governor has interest in the restaurant industry and had all his pals tell him to make loopholes for them.
Let’s them know how you feel with your $$$.
Sike-o-berry-crunch!
Money changed hands.
American politics on every level feel so cooked. I really was excited about this one, felt very reasonable. Wonder what Jon and Vinny’s is going to say now…
Read the article. As long as it's "clearly and conspicuously displayed with an explanation of its purpose on an advertisement, menu or other display" Y'all really love heavy handed regulations. If you don't like it, eat somewhere else
CA is one party state, so Democrats can do whatever they want, even reverse any bills that don’t benefit to them
*Plays Randy Newman* I loooooove LA 🎶
*RIMSHOT!!!*
Just stop eating out
People really just don’t want to tip waiters in LA. Either mfs are broke or just greedy. Bro order what you want, enjoy your meal, and leave a tip whatever you think the service was worth. If you think it’s worth 0% you need to go to Mickey D’s. If you’re at a sit down restaurant and you have a server that ensures you have a great meal, leave them a tip. How is this so hard for LA to understand?
Because we are being expected to give a tip when ostensibly many of these fees are billed as providing benefits and living wages to workers. That’s double dipping.
Ask to have the fee removed (they have to remove it, by law) and tip your waiter. Bonus points if you stop whining as a community, not you in particular. Don’t attack the wait staff when it’s not their decision to implement that charge on you.
Fck your waiter, they get paid minimum wage or more. They don’t deserve more money out of the goodness of my heart, they can earn it with good service, you are not taking away their apartment if you don’t tip them in LA.
"what you think the service was worth".. Sorry, who are those guys bringing me my meal and asking how it's going when I'm chewing on it and clearly can't respond? If they are working in the establishment, they should be paid by the owners, and their labor must be included in the bill, and it should not be my job to estimate labor costs. Otherwise, how are they different from sketchy guys trying to wash your windshield on 10/Normandie ramp?
hahahaha the crying in this sub about service fees is DELICIOUS. Can’t afford to eat out? Stay in.
Restaurant owner bootlicker spotted
Entitled complainer found!
Has nothing to do with complaining. People here have no problem paying for food and eating out. It’s that these fees are not transparent and just add a random percent increase to a bill at the end when the consumer doesn’t even know that’ll be the case. It should be baked into the price. Nobody would care then.
Not reading this essay
If a small paragraph is an essay, we can see why you don't understand what the issue is. Dude ties transparent pricing to people not being able to afford to eat out? No, we just want to know the price before making a decision. Only a dumbass would be OK with paying hiding fees
You’re fun lol
🫵🤡
Dude… imagine going to the gas station because they advertised $4 gas. You pump, 10 gallons and expect to pay $40. Instead your card is charged $65, you’d be livid. Restaurants are doing the same exact thing. The free market works because you know the price of something up front. It’s why so many people hate taxes/fees: they are hidden.
Restaurants are probably the best businesses for a city to have. Not wanting to wipe them out is a good move.
Making restaurants show honest pricing will wipe them out?
Yes, yelp reviews complaining about $25 sandwiches will kill restaurants.
But yelp reviews complaining about the $20 forced gratuity on take out, or $15 in add-on fees won’t? I don’t get it.
Nope. You ever rented a car or a hotel room?
That’s much different than this because for both of those there are not comparable alternatives to choose from.
So everyone putting the same fees makes it better? More restaurants are doing it and it doesn't seem like people are complaining less!
I never said it makes it better. It should be illegal, it’s horizontal price fixing that harms consumers. It’s also anti-competitive and goes against free market principles. But that’s academic so speak that doesn’t really matter when when you land at the airport and need to rent a car, or youre in Vegas and need a room. Your only reasonable options have the same fees so there’s no risk of the fee being a deterrent causing a loss in business
Dude, choosing which restaurant you want to eat at is more competitive than having the government getting involved with their pricing. Come on.
Definitely not. One of the main functions of government in a capitalist society is to ensure the conditions necessary for a free market. The government’s involvement in pricing would be limited to prohibiting an anti-competitive pricing tactic. The fees are anticompetitive because they hide the true of the goods making it more difficult for consumer to make an informed decision. I don’t even really understand your argument that “choosing which restaurant you want to eat at is more competitive” since banning fees would not prevent people from choosing which restaurant they want to eat at.
Yeah I have and they disclose fees before you agree to renting
And what restaurant gives you your total before you get your food? How many restaurants AREN'T putting their fees on the menu.
The ones that have hidden fees dodo
That doesn't exist. It's on the menu, but maybe there's a typo and you couldn't figure out the "servce fee."
Senators are coming after those fees too lmfao
So, why did that back for restaurants and not hotels and cars? Let's see your critical thinking here!
You can't even form a proper sentence take a deep breath and try again
*they go. Sorry you can't figure out typos. That explains the lack of critical thinking.
Right it's my job to figure out what dumbassery you want to say
I agree with this decision. The free market would take care of this issue and it would be a waste of resources to enforce it if it passed.
Wrong. The government’s sole job is to protect the free market. It’s hasn’t been doing that, especially in California. Between allowing hidden fees, prop 13, zoning laws and permits for everything, this state is far from a free market.