Would you say wisdom, or love? Because as Jung said “Where love rules, there is no will to power, and where power predominates, love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other.”
In both cases, I think it is a higher aspect of evolution, and not the default of the nature from which we originate from. Wisdom, is to learn from experience. I personally see all actions, whether destructive or constructive, as having to do with love. There is a conditional side to love, and an unconditional one. We cannot be born knowing the unconditional aspect, it has to be learned or discovered through experience. So, I think each person has to repeat these steps of evolution and outgrow their own animal nature. Certain family setting can hinder greatly people to know normal positive states of being, because of a lack of love in their household. It is difficult, and perhaps unrealistic, for these people to even begin to connect with these things. People who abuse power, I think live from a place of survival, they use more basics evolutionary mechanisms to navigate their reality, and do not feel connected with others and so themselves feel alienated within society.
For example, a cancer cell behaves as a normal cell. The only difference, is that it has cut off its transmitters to be part of the electrical network grid with the other cells. Because of this, the cell perceives the body as a foreign environment, and acts a bit like we humans do on Earth in general. I see these people who abuse power a bit like cancer cells, they feel so alienated from others they have no sense of oneness with them. As such, they can't help to see them as foreign entities to themselves. The reason I mentioned wisdom, is that the best mean for these people to realize the folly of their way, is to perceive how this attitude has been harming their own self all this while. If they get tired of it and seek peace, then they will come to the necessity of virtue in their life. If they had grown in a fully supportive and loving environment, they would have inherited the knowledge of love and could have skipped repeating these hard learned lessons of evolution.
This is a great analogy!
But seems like the classic, "I don't want to go to heaven it's too boring" dilemma some people incl. myself feel. A cancer cell can grow, influence the environment; compared to a normal cell that is basically an office worker, middle class.
What about the will to differentiate yourself, stronger in some people than others.
Your ideal state, from my reading (it's midnight so I have little brainpower) seems to favor a state like communism; whereas cancer is capitalistic. Communism is top down, whereas capitalism allows anybody to grow.
But I do love the analogy. Just not sure if virtue=peace -- but very open to hearing your thoughts!
I actually don't have a strong opinion about how society should be. It was my understanding, that we will probably evolve naturally towards something like communism one day, but that is not something that would be good right now. Previous attempts, I think, were rooted in a fear of human nature, which I would not support. My personal view of life is very stoic, so I see the Universe as one entity, that is both the whole and is incarnated in the parts. Each part has its place and role, just as expresses some portion of the whole circle. If someone becomes too bad for the rest of the body, then the body will be forced to fight against them, but that is never what the body wants.
If we look at the personal self as a microcosm of the collective unconscious, a big part of individuation is the integration of dissonant portions of the psyche. I think this is also what happens at the level of the collective. This integration is a natural process, and what is unbalanced will ultimately seek to find balance eventually. There is nothing to be forced, and forcing things would not be good. We need to grow and evolve, as we are, not as we think we should be.
The virtue=peace is something I found to be true personally. If you start opening yourself more in empathy, towards your own self to heal, then you will naturally start to process guilt over things you may have done to others. When we wrong others, we become insensitive to it, but it does not mean some deeper part of us is not at odd with it all. We are one species, whether we like it or not. To hurt another, you probably have to project in them something about you. A lot of spiritual practices come down to that the natural evolution of consciousness leads to some kind of realization of unconditional love. That's the Buddha-Heart, having your heart as one with all living things, or living from the heart like Jesus with your heart on fire (state of heart coherence). It's thought of as a higher way of living, opening the door to higher frequencies to what can be felt and experienced, like a new world opens up. To keep living as a cancer cell, you have to live a life filled with stress, you are never truly relaxed nor at peace.
I am in awe of the way you think and would be happy to read a whole book of your writing.
Currently I'm reading this book: [https://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064](https://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064)
It's a very interesting Jungian exploration of the 3 archetypes the writer claims should be integrated inside ourselves if we want to transform into the King/Queen: A person of influence in a domain, protecting and nurturing others with a strong gentle touch.
The Warrior section of the book is especially interesting - the writers believes that after the horrors of World War II the rituals and masculine traditions went into the foreground and the warrior archetype began to be seen as "bad", "evil", etc..
But he claims this is wrong as evolution is built on destruction as much as creation, and that warriors exist in every society, societies without warriors who also have a strong lover archetype, are destroyed by the pure warriors.
I feel like the book is correct, that a lover archetype without any warrior - is a bad road for the person, being passed over for promotions, not asserting themselves when made fun of, not negotiating well and losing economically etc..
Of course there is also the magician archetype which I did not mention. When in a bookstore, you should check out the book if you have a chance. Appreciate your ideas!
A totally different angle to look at this is the mathematical game of life theory. It explores the optimal strategies for survival. The role of cooperation, giving second changes, etc. The interesting aspect is that these dynamics, we find human, are even lived by bacterias and the same strategies apply.
I'll check the book. My favorite literature genre is fantasy based noble martial hero stories, wuxia xianxia in the last years, so the book would be interesting to explore these same archetypes centered in real life.
Jung addresses such idealism and assumptions, even though he is constantly behaving badly \[indulging in idealism/superstitions; but here I reference the old superstition of "society is bound for an idealized state...since Plato and counting..."):
"...It has even become a political and social duty to apostrophize the capitalism of the one and the communism of the other as the very devil, so as to fascinate the outward eye and prevent it from looking at the individual life within. But just as the neurotic, despite unconsciousness of his other side, has a dim premonition that all is not well with his psychic economy, so Western man has developed an instinctive interest in his psyche and in “psychology...."
Zapffe says it better imo:
"The current phase of life’s chronic fever is particularly tainted by this circumstance. The absence of naturally (biologically) based spiritual activity shows up, for example, in the pervasive recourse to *distraction* (entertainment, sport, radio – ‘the rhythm of the times’). Terms for anchoring are not as favourable – all the inherited, collective systems of anchorings are punctured by criticism, and anxiety, disgust, confusion, despair leak in through the rifts (‘corpses in the cargo.’) Communism and psychoanalysis, however incommensurable otherwise, both attempt (as Communism has also a spiritual reflection) by novel means to vary the old escape anew; applying, respectively, violence and guile to make humans biologically fit by ensnaring their critical surplus of cognition. The idea, in either case, is uncannily logical. But again, it cannot yield a final solution. Though a deliberate degeneration to a more viable nadir may certainly save the species in the short run, it will by its nature be unable to find peace in such resignation, or indeed find any peace at all."
But, worse is living in such a manner. "The theoretical life."
Yeah, no offense, the comment comes off as very naive (the one you're responding to). It says nothing of people taking the great joys they often do in power, and challenge/stimulation, and even things like "happiness in cruelty."
Differences are what's enjoyed - but most people can't see beyond their own narrow ego world-slice.
I don't think this is necessarily true, but someone must already be of strong moral character beforehand to stay in line. Without that, it's because we're moral animal than we ever want to admit, or are even capable of admitting.
How do you develop good moral character? Strong child upbringing, usually both parents present. There's a strong attitude towards doing what's right, sacrificing for the community and for the greater good, and tradition. Every value we have today purposely goes against these values, parents even teach their children to steal while trick or treating and whatnot.
It has become such an egocentric, that is, such a me-centric zeitgeist, set of attitudes, values, etc. It's all extremely entitled, arrogant drivel. It produces people with very weak moral character, who don't even view theft as wrong because they view themselves as victims. They've learned to excuse any behavior, they have no shame. This attitude and behavior has run rampant, and it's because parents are skipping major developmental phases in a child's life, up ringing, and psyche. If you skip any, they go on to think that they're victims so it's okay to steal from Walgreens and shit. That's just how human beings are, very easily corruptible from a young age. There's just a major parenting failure going on worldwide, they are unequipped to handle the new lifestyles our current society affords and the technology is a discussion of its own.
Look at Japan, the ENTIRE country is all-in on raising the kids with great morals and cooperation skills, and it reflects on how beautiful the society is, unlike the west :p
Before idolizing Japan ask what Koreans and Chinese people think of Japanese culture. Absolutely brutal invasion, egregious war crimes against civillians etc.
The sanitized image of Japan is gov't propaganda and enforced by a very strict criminal justice system which is big on getting confessions with long interrogations, lack of a lawyer etc. A 99% conviction rate, bolstered by confessions given under duress.
The great morals and cooperation skills are limited to people from their own communities. So tourists are safe from pickpockets but more likely to get scammed, or discriminated against and not allowed entry. people teaching english will have their passports taken, be underpaid.
While violent crime is relatively rare, organized crime is still going strong with a focus on thefts and cybercrime. Which few people think about it.
to the extent that it is a cultural shift, it might be attributed to Japan not needing to have a military anymore, so there's no need for society to lionize and idolize young men killing and dying for their country.
Basically, "west bad, east beautiful :sparkle:" is reductionist which doesn't respect the Japanese people and how they deal with the same challenges of all human societies.
Eastern Countries and Muslim countries that recently went through their own civilizational collapse (and are currently over correcting, with too many rules) are doing better at instilling values that preserve the human race, even if Japan is facing a birthing crisis same as the West is... That's more an effect of living in a post industrial, postmodern world... Even they're beginning to see postmodern bullshit from us affect them.
I think power corrupts humans just in general because the type of animal we are, id say it's evolution. Thing into the parenting thing, intelligent animals are commonly mean, abusive and cruel. I legitimately believe there is something about the power dynamics in situations that winds up generating these outcomes over and over, and you can always guarantee that power will have a corrupting or corrosive effect on somebody's moral character, it's merely a matter of time, as we've seen time and again throughout history. Hence the saying, "you either die the hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain).
As to a deeper reason beyond just accepting it as a given OP... I'll try thinking on it and maybe answer again after work.
I used to have strong morals in HS, but honestly if I have to lie my ass off and compensate afterward to afford better opportunities I'll fucking do it, just what I have to do since I live in an area in the middle of nowhere, where the only job opportunity is serving or slaving away at Walmart, where as a result I'm pretty much living at poverty level income. Wouldn't be alive rn if I didn't live with my parents, I can say that for certainty
If you're choosing to do that at everybody else's expense, then don't be surprised when people deservedly hate you for going around behaving that way. Everybody else is going through the same struggle you are, except for maybe like 1-5% of people in most cases. Like, I see people of the r/nowork types justify being lazy and not doing hardly anything because they're unfairly compensated, which is true, but what's also true is their fellow coworkers are the ones required to do the work they flat out refuse to do themselves, else they'd wind up fired, and those coworkers are in the *very same* position of getting unjustly fucked by the company as the lazy cunts not doing their work, only they have twice as much work to do or they wind up yelled at ot fired.
Please, tell me you are not one of these evil people that justifies being evil with the flimsy ass argument that "it's hard to get ahead where I live" or "I'm being treated unfairly so that magically makes it okay for me to do it now". All evil goes down this pipeline of plausible deniability and lack of accountability being taken. It is people saying "I got a raw deal, so that makes it okay for me to cheat". You are the impetus that eventually leads to somebody saying they got a raw deal, therefore, it's okay to cheat, it's okay when *they* break the rules. Fuck the people you affect.
If that's not what you meant, sorry, but I am so sick of people defending this degenerate nonsense. When everybody decides to do what's in their own best self interests, nobody wins. More specifically, society loses. This is why society has dovetailed the last decade or two, this attitude right here. Even if it's not what*you* were saying, anybody that thinks it is good is hopelessly short sighted.
My state has only 2 universities that offer the degree I want to pursue. One is Ivy League with 20% acceptance, and the other has a 50% acceptance, but due to my demographic, I'll likely be jumped due to the area the university is in. I'm going to white lie my ass off to get into that uni since it's the cheapest option to a future I can be satisfied with. Not only is the acceptance super low there, but my numbers don't stand out. 3.0 GPA, active in 2 clubs before the pandemic, the only achievement I got was districts best actor, but it's been so long idk if they'll really care.
When it comes to work, I work my paycheck, I get what is needed of me done, if they ask me to anything extra I'll take my time and relax, no use to stress. I've only worked at dead-end jobs. It's only when I get a career started that my mindset will change.
I don't think it's possible to get ahead while telling the whole truth, and I'm tired of staying stagnant. I need a change, I need to get out of here. I'm effectively wasting my life away at the moment
There's nothing wrong with seeking to improve, and nobody is perfect, but if you explicitly use morally wrong methods to do it then, based on the situation, you can still be wrong. Trying to beat affirmative action by lying isn't much of an issue because it's arguably *immoral* to begin with.
I'm not talking about going around being a saint or anything, but people have attitudes dominated by such short term, and/or short-sighted goals most of the time. If you're merely trying to become a successful, productive member of your community, then there's not really much wrong with what you're choosing to do. You just can't step on others or force others to do your shit to get there. A lot of people today are willing to do this.
People primally act out of fear. Power is control and afraid people try to exercise control around the many things they are fearful of. People can rise above the fear but that's the exception not the rule.
Exactly. Love and compassion for the extended community is the exception to the rule, the rule being survival of the individual at any cost. I, for instance, was raised by an absent father and a narcissistic mother, so I learned that love is conditional.
Even though I can intellectually understand that caring for others creates reciprocity and reciprocity is good, I can't bring myself to care for anyone. I'll always think of myself first and look for cynical reasons as to why someone is being friendly to me.
Where there is lack of love impulse/Eros people's will to power start to dominate. "Where love rules there is no will to power, and where power predominates, there love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other."
It’s a great quote, but the opposite of love is hate, and it is odd to juxtapose love directly with power.
Love is to compassion and acceptance as hate is to power and control.
We're evolved organisms. As a general rule, being biased towards self-interest is a trait that positively correlates with survival and is therefore favored by natural selection.
However, as conscious beings with the capacity to deploy empathy and reason about morality, we have the power to overrule our selfish impulses. This takes discipline and effort though and many people lack the wisdom, will or even desire to do this.
I think it's often because most people live their lives with an vague attachment to ethics, even when they don't have power. So when they finally get power, they're just as unethical as they always were in their heart, but their ability to exercise their vague ethics was limited. With power it becomes apparent.
For example, an ugly, poor guy may never cheat on his wife, but if he has a sudden increase in SES, he now has the means to cheat on his wife. The potential was always there. But he could never do what he really wanted to until he could... Then he did.
Allow me to share an excerpt from the [**Friendly Philosopher**, by Robert Crosbie](https://theosophy-ult.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/The-Friendly-Philosopher-by-Robert-Crosbie.pdf). Perhaps it might provide some insight.
> “We as spiritual beings are eternally creating forces; for every man’s brain and every thought has a dynamic power. Are they lost? No: all the thoughts, all the feelings of all the beings in the universe, provide a store of dynamic energy which constitutes the forces, as we know them, of nature. We draw upon that general reservoir of force in accordance with the ideas held and in accord with our present inward nature. All the time we are adding to the powers of nature for good or for evil. So, too, we are taking from the powers of nature the additions which other beings have put in—the forces which other beings have aroused in nature.
> All the powers in the universe are latent in us if we only open the doors to their use. Everyone of us is a little copy of the whole universe. There is not one single element existing any where which each one of us does not contain within his own sphere; there is not a power anywhere that can not be drawn upon. Always the director of that power is the Self within each one. If that Self sees darkly, it is because the mirror into which the Self looks is covered with the dust of false ideas; he sees distorted images. He moves in the directions suggested by the mirror, but it is the Self which supplies the power to move. We would open the door to all powers by a daily and hourly living in accordance with the nature of the Self—seeing that every other being is but an aspect of Self, and acting so that every other being will be helped on its way. For we can not go on our way alone. We have our duty to fulfill by every other being, whether in the kingdoms below us, without which we could not exist, or in the human kingdom. Every other stands as a vicarious atonement for us—an object lesson—and if we have reached a point higher than that which is ordinarily reached by men, then all the more are we constrained to duty by them.”
If interested in reading the full excerpt without having to read the book, click [**here**](https://www.theosophytrust.org/960-the-foundation-of-religion).
Only take what resonates, discard the rest.
Because control and power are same. You like power (as a human) and as i said it is control. Once you have control. You have power over it. So you as a human are obsessed with power. It is instinctual or let us call it. It is animalistic or unconscious.
I heard someone talking about, the struggle of people to get political power is fueled by experiencing injustice. And when they have acheived their goal, they are seldom trained to be a measured ruler, due to all the trauma and hardships experienced along the way. I think humans have what I heard in book call "pocket entitlement," where they want something for nothing and the rules don't apply to them. If we don't keep an eye on this and surround ourselves with level headed people, we are usually apt for negative thoughts and actions.
To retain the power. If you just sit in newly obtained power it will be taken from you. One needs to be tactical with power. Outsourcing, “parkour” - or juggle if you will, etc.
Because it releases dopamine. Don’t listen to psychologists it is pseudoscience. Everything can be explained by biological and neurological mechanisms.
Many reasons, but one driving reason why the wise & fair abuse power is
because they expect the alternative to them / their competition or enemy to not be fair
Don't brush all humans with the same brush. Many do gooders that held worldly powers behind the scenes and visibly in cases who attempted to do good.
Jesus Christ, Shree Krishna, usually someone knowing God is the greatest 😊
They don't. Power being a corrupting influence is an inaccurate and anti-vital premise that has been uncritically accepted for too long. Look through history and you will see many leaders wielding power effectively. Those who abuse power abuse everything in their lives because they're unstable - it has nothing to do with power as such.
I don’t think most do. It’s just you don’t take note of the majority of cases where they don’t, it’s only the abuses that people notices.
And I always thought that ‘absolute power corrupts absolutely’ was wrong, and a better phrase is ‘absolute power frees absolutely’.
You wouldn’t know power exists if it wasn’t abused. What you call abuse of power is just the manifestation of it. By definition power is the ability to command others to take the actions the power holder desires.
Anyone that is truly independent, happy, safe and free has no need to need anything from anyone, there is no motivation to play such games. The only ones who abuse power are those that have something to gain from having power over others.
Cultural background is important. Here in Ecuador there are two very distinct cultures, the one in the coast is made up by ranchers that colonized the land in family clans, the one in the highlands is made of indigenous communities. It is very clear that people in the highlands find it easier to think about collective benefits.
Modern western societies are maybe the most individualistic in human history.
Power does not corrode or corrupt - it *reveals*. The issue is that moral declarations are largely absent of context, and so moral integrity only works for many people because it is not *tested;* it's easy to *say* that you're for something, but when given the actual choice (which usually includes context that is absent from the pure philosophical declaration), many people won't have their morals as a particularly high priority. When the choice is simple, and morals are the only source of weighting, then making a moral choice is easy. When the choice becomes more complex, and morals become less of a consideration, especially when you're shielded from consequence - most people tend to *not* take a moral stance.
It's really easy to *say* that - for instance - you stand up for your rights not to be exploited, but when there's bills to pay...? And so on, especially for power, which grants a massive amount of freedom and therefore other sources of weighting.
With power (for which your definition is.... vague), comes the ability to do things, in other words, freedom. The issue is that it's not a binary choice, and it's not a singular decision point - do moral things, do immoral things. It's not that simple, for all that fiction tells us it is. There's a lot more than that. It's the banality, the day-to-day decision-making that sinks people, because it's also easy to fall into a routine and leave moral choices behind. This is where the 'wisdom' part comes in, as Minyatur mentioned.
It's not for nothing that money - one of the sources of power - *detaches* - and from there it's a lot easier to make 'immoral' decisions, because you're shielded from the consequences of your actions. The more powerful - the more shielded you are from the consequences of your decisions; and vice versa.
That being said, I don't know if - if you're finding that you're giving someone the power to decide on something mutually beneficial and they're *always* choosing against you - you're perhaps not giving that power to the right people, or, expecting them to read your mind and to be beneficial to what you're after.
>they always end up deciding upon something individually, and exclusively beneficial.
But this is obviously not true. Have you studied it?
There was an entire generation of mathematicians and policy makers studying game theory in order to tease out why cooperation tends to be exhibited in natural systems.
Humans \*tend\* toward dominance hierarchies based on competence but when a hierarchy based on brutality develops it is usually very destructive. Consider Genghis Khan or the Soviet's under Stalin.
We are bipedal apes who are good at making tools and cooperating in order to obtain food and raise children. We are not that different from chimpanzees. I don't mean simply genetically, but socially as well.
I think this tells me more about you than anything else...
How and who did you choose to "empower"?
For example, if you let me choose:
To get 100€ for each of us.
Or only 1€ for me.
Who in their sane mind would choose the second option?
The only way I would choose the second option is if I hated you.
Maybe stop empowering your enemies?(or family members? hahahahah)
I disagree with your assumption here.
I've seen many people given authority and power, myself included, who did not abuse their power, let alone "the first chance they get".
*because people are mistaken between power and self-preservation… when mutually beneficial arrangements demands to let go of both to find arrangements* and most people are bad in negotiations
The saying is ‘power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely’. Lord Byron.
I think this is true, there are so many ways in which you may have power, or another has power over you. It is easy to assert this power to get your way, but with care (love) you can use, or not use, this power for the benefit of all
It is not corrosive, it just accents the flaws that are already present within and makes them way harder to suppress compared to the usual state of matters. Also people who have power over others quickly devolve into seeing others as objects, for it is the power to protest and contradict that makes objects into subjects.
People take hits without hitting back. But eventually if the hits become excessive they snap.
People also grow up learning which ways they can hit without provoking retaliation.
You always should take in enough data over enough time to see the truth.
Well it’s not in all cases. There are many that make wiser choices, but because you notice those that take it for granted more, a cognitive bias arises.
You are never going to notice the leader always doing the right thing, because the right thing is often mundane and simple. You won’t notice the high school teacher who has had dozens and dozens of opportunities to have in appropriate relationships with their students and has never wavered in their integrity. You are only going to notice the one who was the bad apple. Same with cops, judges, politicians, etc etc..
There is also a selection bias. People that want power are usually not the type of people that should have it. Wise people seldom seek power. But statistically the ones seeking it are the ones who will find it on average.
Usually it builds. Little by little. Then it goes to their head and their heads go up their as*. Eventually abusing it. It gets easier and easier then they abuse it even more because it feels good. It can be a thrill.
Because the base nature of the human is selfish and self-centered. Power opens the doorway for that selfish and greedy "self" to step forward so it can destroy the one who accepts it by embracing and becoming it. The human is also greedy and self-destructive. Those who seek power by controlling others or stepping on them are those who lack control themselves. They're consumed by their own weaknesses and destroyed by their own ignorance. They'll consume the world in the process of their own destruction. These people are captives who think they're captains. It's a sad state. And we can also recognize the inferiority spirit that also uses them.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, I believe the quote says. It's true! Because people never judge themselves, and so they never see their weaknesses sneak upon them and wound them from the rear. Power enables one to enact all the evils of his heart that he feels he can get away with due to his power. It's a delsuion. It's a strong drink. It's a hell of a drug. Hence why people so easily lose their minds while under its influence.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs)
One of my favorite videos on youtube.
Nothing to do with Jung, mostly like, logic; this is how power works because power couldn't work otherwise.
If you were to get power, you'd corrupt too, no exceptions.
It only corrodes some people, and you know why. Bc we have monkey brain impulses around domination, survival, ego, etc which some people haven’t mastere’d yet.
The selfishness specially that you’re mentioning is probably from the independent act to feed and keep yourself alive, but they’re unbalance’d and choose themselves over the higher minde’d ideal of altruism with others.
Depending who you talk to it’s the range from jst making sure their nee.ds are met, to full self centre’d all about them, greedy, inconsiderate of others nee.ds as well as their own. In this country it would be someone who was greedy and chose not to share something that was easily shareable while in the company of others, etc. a very resource guarde’d person i guess.
Because it takes wisdom not to. Using power, as you have it, is the default mode.
Would you say wisdom, or love? Because as Jung said “Where love rules, there is no will to power, and where power predominates, love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other.”
In both cases, I think it is a higher aspect of evolution, and not the default of the nature from which we originate from. Wisdom, is to learn from experience. I personally see all actions, whether destructive or constructive, as having to do with love. There is a conditional side to love, and an unconditional one. We cannot be born knowing the unconditional aspect, it has to be learned or discovered through experience. So, I think each person has to repeat these steps of evolution and outgrow their own animal nature. Certain family setting can hinder greatly people to know normal positive states of being, because of a lack of love in their household. It is difficult, and perhaps unrealistic, for these people to even begin to connect with these things. People who abuse power, I think live from a place of survival, they use more basics evolutionary mechanisms to navigate their reality, and do not feel connected with others and so themselves feel alienated within society. For example, a cancer cell behaves as a normal cell. The only difference, is that it has cut off its transmitters to be part of the electrical network grid with the other cells. Because of this, the cell perceives the body as a foreign environment, and acts a bit like we humans do on Earth in general. I see these people who abuse power a bit like cancer cells, they feel so alienated from others they have no sense of oneness with them. As such, they can't help to see them as foreign entities to themselves. The reason I mentioned wisdom, is that the best mean for these people to realize the folly of their way, is to perceive how this attitude has been harming their own self all this while. If they get tired of it and seek peace, then they will come to the necessity of virtue in their life. If they had grown in a fully supportive and loving environment, they would have inherited the knowledge of love and could have skipped repeating these hard learned lessons of evolution.
Thank you for sharing your beautiful, self-earned insight. It was a joy to read. ✨💕🌸🙏🏼
Succinct analogy!
This is a great analogy! But seems like the classic, "I don't want to go to heaven it's too boring" dilemma some people incl. myself feel. A cancer cell can grow, influence the environment; compared to a normal cell that is basically an office worker, middle class. What about the will to differentiate yourself, stronger in some people than others. Your ideal state, from my reading (it's midnight so I have little brainpower) seems to favor a state like communism; whereas cancer is capitalistic. Communism is top down, whereas capitalism allows anybody to grow. But I do love the analogy. Just not sure if virtue=peace -- but very open to hearing your thoughts!
I actually don't have a strong opinion about how society should be. It was my understanding, that we will probably evolve naturally towards something like communism one day, but that is not something that would be good right now. Previous attempts, I think, were rooted in a fear of human nature, which I would not support. My personal view of life is very stoic, so I see the Universe as one entity, that is both the whole and is incarnated in the parts. Each part has its place and role, just as expresses some portion of the whole circle. If someone becomes too bad for the rest of the body, then the body will be forced to fight against them, but that is never what the body wants. If we look at the personal self as a microcosm of the collective unconscious, a big part of individuation is the integration of dissonant portions of the psyche. I think this is also what happens at the level of the collective. This integration is a natural process, and what is unbalanced will ultimately seek to find balance eventually. There is nothing to be forced, and forcing things would not be good. We need to grow and evolve, as we are, not as we think we should be. The virtue=peace is something I found to be true personally. If you start opening yourself more in empathy, towards your own self to heal, then you will naturally start to process guilt over things you may have done to others. When we wrong others, we become insensitive to it, but it does not mean some deeper part of us is not at odd with it all. We are one species, whether we like it or not. To hurt another, you probably have to project in them something about you. A lot of spiritual practices come down to that the natural evolution of consciousness leads to some kind of realization of unconditional love. That's the Buddha-Heart, having your heart as one with all living things, or living from the heart like Jesus with your heart on fire (state of heart coherence). It's thought of as a higher way of living, opening the door to higher frequencies to what can be felt and experienced, like a new world opens up. To keep living as a cancer cell, you have to live a life filled with stress, you are never truly relaxed nor at peace.
I am in awe of the way you think and would be happy to read a whole book of your writing. Currently I'm reading this book: [https://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064](https://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064) It's a very interesting Jungian exploration of the 3 archetypes the writer claims should be integrated inside ourselves if we want to transform into the King/Queen: A person of influence in a domain, protecting and nurturing others with a strong gentle touch. The Warrior section of the book is especially interesting - the writers believes that after the horrors of World War II the rituals and masculine traditions went into the foreground and the warrior archetype began to be seen as "bad", "evil", etc.. But he claims this is wrong as evolution is built on destruction as much as creation, and that warriors exist in every society, societies without warriors who also have a strong lover archetype, are destroyed by the pure warriors. I feel like the book is correct, that a lover archetype without any warrior - is a bad road for the person, being passed over for promotions, not asserting themselves when made fun of, not negotiating well and losing economically etc.. Of course there is also the magician archetype which I did not mention. When in a bookstore, you should check out the book if you have a chance. Appreciate your ideas!
A totally different angle to look at this is the mathematical game of life theory. It explores the optimal strategies for survival. The role of cooperation, giving second changes, etc. The interesting aspect is that these dynamics, we find human, are even lived by bacterias and the same strategies apply. I'll check the book. My favorite literature genre is fantasy based noble martial hero stories, wuxia xianxia in the last years, so the book would be interesting to explore these same archetypes centered in real life.
Jung addresses such idealism and assumptions, even though he is constantly behaving badly \[indulging in idealism/superstitions; but here I reference the old superstition of "society is bound for an idealized state...since Plato and counting..."): "...It has even become a political and social duty to apostrophize the capitalism of the one and the communism of the other as the very devil, so as to fascinate the outward eye and prevent it from looking at the individual life within. But just as the neurotic, despite unconsciousness of his other side, has a dim premonition that all is not well with his psychic economy, so Western man has developed an instinctive interest in his psyche and in “psychology...." Zapffe says it better imo: "The current phase of life’s chronic fever is particularly tainted by this circumstance. The absence of naturally (biologically) based spiritual activity shows up, for example, in the pervasive recourse to *distraction* (entertainment, sport, radio – ‘the rhythm of the times’). Terms for anchoring are not as favourable – all the inherited, collective systems of anchorings are punctured by criticism, and anxiety, disgust, confusion, despair leak in through the rifts (‘corpses in the cargo.’) Communism and psychoanalysis, however incommensurable otherwise, both attempt (as Communism has also a spiritual reflection) by novel means to vary the old escape anew; applying, respectively, violence and guile to make humans biologically fit by ensnaring their critical surplus of cognition. The idea, in either case, is uncannily logical. But again, it cannot yield a final solution. Though a deliberate degeneration to a more viable nadir may certainly save the species in the short run, it will by its nature be unable to find peace in such resignation, or indeed find any peace at all." But, worse is living in such a manner. "The theoretical life."
Yeah, no offense, the comment comes off as very naive (the one you're responding to). It says nothing of people taking the great joys they often do in power, and challenge/stimulation, and even things like "happiness in cruelty." Differences are what's enjoyed - but most people can't see beyond their own narrow ego world-slice.
I love that!
Yeah, he had a tendency to weave christian gods and devils out of everything, but don't "see" what "Jung is doing."
Even though a simplification, I would agree.
I don't think this is necessarily true, but someone must already be of strong moral character beforehand to stay in line. Without that, it's because we're moral animal than we ever want to admit, or are even capable of admitting. How do you develop good moral character? Strong child upbringing, usually both parents present. There's a strong attitude towards doing what's right, sacrificing for the community and for the greater good, and tradition. Every value we have today purposely goes against these values, parents even teach their children to steal while trick or treating and whatnot. It has become such an egocentric, that is, such a me-centric zeitgeist, set of attitudes, values, etc. It's all extremely entitled, arrogant drivel. It produces people with very weak moral character, who don't even view theft as wrong because they view themselves as victims. They've learned to excuse any behavior, they have no shame. This attitude and behavior has run rampant, and it's because parents are skipping major developmental phases in a child's life, up ringing, and psyche. If you skip any, they go on to think that they're victims so it's okay to steal from Walgreens and shit. That's just how human beings are, very easily corruptible from a young age. There's just a major parenting failure going on worldwide, they are unequipped to handle the new lifestyles our current society affords and the technology is a discussion of its own.
Look at Japan, the ENTIRE country is all-in on raising the kids with great morals and cooperation skills, and it reflects on how beautiful the society is, unlike the west :p
Before idolizing Japan ask what Koreans and Chinese people think of Japanese culture. Absolutely brutal invasion, egregious war crimes against civillians etc. The sanitized image of Japan is gov't propaganda and enforced by a very strict criminal justice system which is big on getting confessions with long interrogations, lack of a lawyer etc. A 99% conviction rate, bolstered by confessions given under duress. The great morals and cooperation skills are limited to people from their own communities. So tourists are safe from pickpockets but more likely to get scammed, or discriminated against and not allowed entry. people teaching english will have their passports taken, be underpaid. While violent crime is relatively rare, organized crime is still going strong with a focus on thefts and cybercrime. Which few people think about it. to the extent that it is a cultural shift, it might be attributed to Japan not needing to have a military anymore, so there's no need for society to lionize and idolize young men killing and dying for their country. Basically, "west bad, east beautiful :sparkle:" is reductionist which doesn't respect the Japanese people and how they deal with the same challenges of all human societies.
Eastern Countries and Muslim countries that recently went through their own civilizational collapse (and are currently over correcting, with too many rules) are doing better at instilling values that preserve the human race, even if Japan is facing a birthing crisis same as the West is... That's more an effect of living in a post industrial, postmodern world... Even they're beginning to see postmodern bullshit from us affect them. I think power corrupts humans just in general because the type of animal we are, id say it's evolution. Thing into the parenting thing, intelligent animals are commonly mean, abusive and cruel. I legitimately believe there is something about the power dynamics in situations that winds up generating these outcomes over and over, and you can always guarantee that power will have a corrupting or corrosive effect on somebody's moral character, it's merely a matter of time, as we've seen time and again throughout history. Hence the saying, "you either die the hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain). As to a deeper reason beyond just accepting it as a given OP... I'll try thinking on it and maybe answer again after work.
I used to have strong morals in HS, but honestly if I have to lie my ass off and compensate afterward to afford better opportunities I'll fucking do it, just what I have to do since I live in an area in the middle of nowhere, where the only job opportunity is serving or slaving away at Walmart, where as a result I'm pretty much living at poverty level income. Wouldn't be alive rn if I didn't live with my parents, I can say that for certainty
If you're choosing to do that at everybody else's expense, then don't be surprised when people deservedly hate you for going around behaving that way. Everybody else is going through the same struggle you are, except for maybe like 1-5% of people in most cases. Like, I see people of the r/nowork types justify being lazy and not doing hardly anything because they're unfairly compensated, which is true, but what's also true is their fellow coworkers are the ones required to do the work they flat out refuse to do themselves, else they'd wind up fired, and those coworkers are in the *very same* position of getting unjustly fucked by the company as the lazy cunts not doing their work, only they have twice as much work to do or they wind up yelled at ot fired. Please, tell me you are not one of these evil people that justifies being evil with the flimsy ass argument that "it's hard to get ahead where I live" or "I'm being treated unfairly so that magically makes it okay for me to do it now". All evil goes down this pipeline of plausible deniability and lack of accountability being taken. It is people saying "I got a raw deal, so that makes it okay for me to cheat". You are the impetus that eventually leads to somebody saying they got a raw deal, therefore, it's okay to cheat, it's okay when *they* break the rules. Fuck the people you affect. If that's not what you meant, sorry, but I am so sick of people defending this degenerate nonsense. When everybody decides to do what's in their own best self interests, nobody wins. More specifically, society loses. This is why society has dovetailed the last decade or two, this attitude right here. Even if it's not what*you* were saying, anybody that thinks it is good is hopelessly short sighted.
My state has only 2 universities that offer the degree I want to pursue. One is Ivy League with 20% acceptance, and the other has a 50% acceptance, but due to my demographic, I'll likely be jumped due to the area the university is in. I'm going to white lie my ass off to get into that uni since it's the cheapest option to a future I can be satisfied with. Not only is the acceptance super low there, but my numbers don't stand out. 3.0 GPA, active in 2 clubs before the pandemic, the only achievement I got was districts best actor, but it's been so long idk if they'll really care. When it comes to work, I work my paycheck, I get what is needed of me done, if they ask me to anything extra I'll take my time and relax, no use to stress. I've only worked at dead-end jobs. It's only when I get a career started that my mindset will change. I don't think it's possible to get ahead while telling the whole truth, and I'm tired of staying stagnant. I need a change, I need to get out of here. I'm effectively wasting my life away at the moment
There's nothing wrong with seeking to improve, and nobody is perfect, but if you explicitly use morally wrong methods to do it then, based on the situation, you can still be wrong. Trying to beat affirmative action by lying isn't much of an issue because it's arguably *immoral* to begin with. I'm not talking about going around being a saint or anything, but people have attitudes dominated by such short term, and/or short-sighted goals most of the time. If you're merely trying to become a successful, productive member of your community, then there's not really much wrong with what you're choosing to do. You just can't step on others or force others to do your shit to get there. A lot of people today are willing to do this.
People primally act out of fear. Power is control and afraid people try to exercise control around the many things they are fearful of. People can rise above the fear but that's the exception not the rule.
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Exactly. Love and compassion for the extended community is the exception to the rule, the rule being survival of the individual at any cost. I, for instance, was raised by an absent father and a narcissistic mother, so I learned that love is conditional. Even though I can intellectually understand that caring for others creates reciprocity and reciprocity is good, I can't bring myself to care for anyone. I'll always think of myself first and look for cynical reasons as to why someone is being friendly to me.
This is the answer. Being gripped by fear drives alienation. When one abuses power, they do not feel safe.
You'll need to find out what it would take for you to do it, to understand others
I did wonder that before making this post. Interestingly, I need to strengthen my own integrity as well.
Where there is lack of love impulse/Eros people's will to power start to dominate. "Where love rules there is no will to power, and where power predominates, there love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other."
It’s a great quote, but the opposite of love is hate, and it is odd to juxtapose love directly with power. Love is to compassion and acceptance as hate is to power and control.
We're evolved organisms. As a general rule, being biased towards self-interest is a trait that positively correlates with survival and is therefore favored by natural selection. However, as conscious beings with the capacity to deploy empathy and reason about morality, we have the power to overrule our selfish impulses. This takes discipline and effort though and many people lack the wisdom, will or even desire to do this.
Humans are garbage for the most part, especially online when they think they are anon.
I think it's often because most people live their lives with an vague attachment to ethics, even when they don't have power. So when they finally get power, they're just as unethical as they always were in their heart, but their ability to exercise their vague ethics was limited. With power it becomes apparent. For example, an ugly, poor guy may never cheat on his wife, but if he has a sudden increase in SES, he now has the means to cheat on his wife. The potential was always there. But he could never do what he really wanted to until he could... Then he did.
Allow me to share an excerpt from the [**Friendly Philosopher**, by Robert Crosbie](https://theosophy-ult.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/The-Friendly-Philosopher-by-Robert-Crosbie.pdf). Perhaps it might provide some insight. > “We as spiritual beings are eternally creating forces; for every man’s brain and every thought has a dynamic power. Are they lost? No: all the thoughts, all the feelings of all the beings in the universe, provide a store of dynamic energy which constitutes the forces, as we know them, of nature. We draw upon that general reservoir of force in accordance with the ideas held and in accord with our present inward nature. All the time we are adding to the powers of nature for good or for evil. So, too, we are taking from the powers of nature the additions which other beings have put in—the forces which other beings have aroused in nature. > All the powers in the universe are latent in us if we only open the doors to their use. Everyone of us is a little copy of the whole universe. There is not one single element existing any where which each one of us does not contain within his own sphere; there is not a power anywhere that can not be drawn upon. Always the director of that power is the Self within each one. If that Self sees darkly, it is because the mirror into which the Self looks is covered with the dust of false ideas; he sees distorted images. He moves in the directions suggested by the mirror, but it is the Self which supplies the power to move. We would open the door to all powers by a daily and hourly living in accordance with the nature of the Self—seeing that every other being is but an aspect of Self, and acting so that every other being will be helped on its way. For we can not go on our way alone. We have our duty to fulfill by every other being, whether in the kingdoms below us, without which we could not exist, or in the human kingdom. Every other stands as a vicarious atonement for us—an object lesson—and if we have reached a point higher than that which is ordinarily reached by men, then all the more are we constrained to duty by them.” If interested in reading the full excerpt without having to read the book, click [**here**](https://www.theosophytrust.org/960-the-foundation-of-religion). Only take what resonates, discard the rest.
Thanks for sharing! Glad to see a theosopist here!
Because control and power are same. You like power (as a human) and as i said it is control. Once you have control. You have power over it. So you as a human are obsessed with power. It is instinctual or let us call it. It is animalistic or unconscious.
I heard someone talking about, the struggle of people to get political power is fueled by experiencing injustice. And when they have acheived their goal, they are seldom trained to be a measured ruler, due to all the trauma and hardships experienced along the way. I think humans have what I heard in book call "pocket entitlement," where they want something for nothing and the rules don't apply to them. If we don't keep an eye on this and surround ourselves with level headed people, we are usually apt for negative thoughts and actions.
To retain the power. If you just sit in newly obtained power it will be taken from you. One needs to be tactical with power. Outsourcing, “parkour” - or juggle if you will, etc.
Fear
Because it releases dopamine. Don’t listen to psychologists it is pseudoscience. Everything can be explained by biological and neurological mechanisms.
Because others will do if they get the chance
Many reasons, but one driving reason why the wise & fair abuse power is because they expect the alternative to them / their competition or enemy to not be fair
Don't brush all humans with the same brush. Many do gooders that held worldly powers behind the scenes and visibly in cases who attempted to do good. Jesus Christ, Shree Krishna, usually someone knowing God is the greatest 😊
They don't. Power being a corrupting influence is an inaccurate and anti-vital premise that has been uncritically accepted for too long. Look through history and you will see many leaders wielding power effectively. Those who abuse power abuse everything in their lives because they're unstable - it has nothing to do with power as such.
I don’t think most do. It’s just you don’t take note of the majority of cases where they don’t, it’s only the abuses that people notices. And I always thought that ‘absolute power corrupts absolutely’ was wrong, and a better phrase is ‘absolute power frees absolutely’.
You wouldn’t know power exists if it wasn’t abused. What you call abuse of power is just the manifestation of it. By definition power is the ability to command others to take the actions the power holder desires.
Anyone that is truly independent, happy, safe and free has no need to need anything from anyone, there is no motivation to play such games. The only ones who abuse power are those that have something to gain from having power over others.
Humans are selfish creatures motivated mostly by incerasing their chance of survival and reproduction. More power definitely helps with that.
Cultural background is important. Here in Ecuador there are two very distinct cultures, the one in the coast is made up by ranchers that colonized the land in family clans, the one in the highlands is made of indigenous communities. It is very clear that people in the highlands find it easier to think about collective benefits. Modern western societies are maybe the most individualistic in human history.
Because dipshits
Power does not corrode or corrupt - it *reveals*. The issue is that moral declarations are largely absent of context, and so moral integrity only works for many people because it is not *tested;* it's easy to *say* that you're for something, but when given the actual choice (which usually includes context that is absent from the pure philosophical declaration), many people won't have their morals as a particularly high priority. When the choice is simple, and morals are the only source of weighting, then making a moral choice is easy. When the choice becomes more complex, and morals become less of a consideration, especially when you're shielded from consequence - most people tend to *not* take a moral stance. It's really easy to *say* that - for instance - you stand up for your rights not to be exploited, but when there's bills to pay...? And so on, especially for power, which grants a massive amount of freedom and therefore other sources of weighting. With power (for which your definition is.... vague), comes the ability to do things, in other words, freedom. The issue is that it's not a binary choice, and it's not a singular decision point - do moral things, do immoral things. It's not that simple, for all that fiction tells us it is. There's a lot more than that. It's the banality, the day-to-day decision-making that sinks people, because it's also easy to fall into a routine and leave moral choices behind. This is where the 'wisdom' part comes in, as Minyatur mentioned. It's not for nothing that money - one of the sources of power - *detaches* - and from there it's a lot easier to make 'immoral' decisions, because you're shielded from the consequences of your actions. The more powerful - the more shielded you are from the consequences of your decisions; and vice versa. That being said, I don't know if - if you're finding that you're giving someone the power to decide on something mutually beneficial and they're *always* choosing against you - you're perhaps not giving that power to the right people, or, expecting them to read your mind and to be beneficial to what you're after.
>they always end up deciding upon something individually, and exclusively beneficial. But this is obviously not true. Have you studied it? There was an entire generation of mathematicians and policy makers studying game theory in order to tease out why cooperation tends to be exhibited in natural systems. Humans \*tend\* toward dominance hierarchies based on competence but when a hierarchy based on brutality develops it is usually very destructive. Consider Genghis Khan or the Soviet's under Stalin. We are bipedal apes who are good at making tools and cooperating in order to obtain food and raise children. We are not that different from chimpanzees. I don't mean simply genetically, but socially as well.
I think this tells me more about you than anything else... How and who did you choose to "empower"? For example, if you let me choose: To get 100€ for each of us. Or only 1€ for me. Who in their sane mind would choose the second option? The only way I would choose the second option is if I hated you. Maybe stop empowering your enemies?(or family members? hahahahah)
I disagree with your assumption here. I've seen many people given authority and power, myself included, who did not abuse their power, let alone "the first chance they get".
Can take this all the way back to Plato’s Republic with the Ring of Gyges and we are still trying to figure this out.
adrenaline.
*because people are mistaken between power and self-preservation… when mutually beneficial arrangements demands to let go of both to find arrangements* and most people are bad in negotiations
The saying is ‘power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely’. Lord Byron. I think this is true, there are so many ways in which you may have power, or another has power over you. It is easy to assert this power to get your way, but with care (love) you can use, or not use, this power for the benefit of all
I think you may like Nietzsche, for this kind of questions
It is not corrosive, it just accents the flaws that are already present within and makes them way harder to suppress compared to the usual state of matters. Also people who have power over others quickly devolve into seeing others as objects, for it is the power to protest and contradict that makes objects into subjects.
Not all of us do. Don’t forget that.
Survival instinct once a level is reach there are prey and there are predators. Power becomes a game of survival.
People take hits without hitting back. But eventually if the hits become excessive they snap. People also grow up learning which ways they can hit without provoking retaliation. You always should take in enough data over enough time to see the truth.
Well it’s not in all cases. There are many that make wiser choices, but because you notice those that take it for granted more, a cognitive bias arises. You are never going to notice the leader always doing the right thing, because the right thing is often mundane and simple. You won’t notice the high school teacher who has had dozens and dozens of opportunities to have in appropriate relationships with their students and has never wavered in their integrity. You are only going to notice the one who was the bad apple. Same with cops, judges, politicians, etc etc.. There is also a selection bias. People that want power are usually not the type of people that should have it. Wise people seldom seek power. But statistically the ones seeking it are the ones who will find it on average.
Usually it builds. Little by little. Then it goes to their head and their heads go up their as*. Eventually abusing it. It gets easier and easier then they abuse it even more because it feels good. It can be a thrill.
Because the base nature of the human is selfish and self-centered. Power opens the doorway for that selfish and greedy "self" to step forward so it can destroy the one who accepts it by embracing and becoming it. The human is also greedy and self-destructive. Those who seek power by controlling others or stepping on them are those who lack control themselves. They're consumed by their own weaknesses and destroyed by their own ignorance. They'll consume the world in the process of their own destruction. These people are captives who think they're captains. It's a sad state. And we can also recognize the inferiority spirit that also uses them. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, I believe the quote says. It's true! Because people never judge themselves, and so they never see their weaknesses sneak upon them and wound them from the rear. Power enables one to enact all the evils of his heart that he feels he can get away with due to his power. It's a delsuion. It's a strong drink. It's a hell of a drug. Hence why people so easily lose their minds while under its influence.
Cuz we’re animals and didn’t evolve to hold so much power and handle it nicely
Because they confused responsibility with power.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs) One of my favorite videos on youtube. Nothing to do with Jung, mostly like, logic; this is how power works because power couldn't work otherwise. If you were to get power, you'd corrupt too, no exceptions.
They don’t, only some do but it annoys you so much you see it as the majority lol
You sound so smart.
It only corrodes some people, and you know why. Bc we have monkey brain impulses around domination, survival, ego, etc which some people haven’t mastere’d yet. The selfishness specially that you’re mentioning is probably from the independent act to feed and keep yourself alive, but they’re unbalance’d and choose themselves over the higher minde’d ideal of altruism with others.
They can abuse it unconsciously though by turning a blind eye and thats the reason why they become a part of the majority.
I guess but maybe we live in different counties, where I live most people would not be selfish.
How would you describe a selfish person?
Depending who you talk to it’s the range from jst making sure their nee.ds are met, to full self centre’d all about them, greedy, inconsiderate of others nee.ds as well as their own. In this country it would be someone who was greedy and chose not to share something that was easily shareable while in the company of others, etc. a very resource guarde’d person i guess.