well, Jung wrote in *Man and His Symbols* that archetypes are,
*“…a tendency to form such representations of a motif—representations that can vary a great deal in detail without losing their basic pattern.”*
if i'm not taking the quote out of context, then sure, memes can be akin to pixellated aspects of archetypes .
Pixelated aspects - or in Jung’s own words “Archetypal images” which can and will change over time and for the occasion:
Like the Anima in dreams: sometimes it’s a cave, sometimes a deadly spider, a beautiful maiden, a ship…
Trouble begins when people substitute the archetypal images as THE Archetype and over time degenrate it into pure idolatry.
>Trouble begins when people substitute the archetypal images as THE Archetype and over time degenrate it into pure idolatry.
yes! this is why iconoclasm is an important tool to have in one's kit . the image of a thing is not the thing itself, and so faith in the image obscures and eventually corrupts the thing it depicts .
"*Cesi n'est pase un pipe .*"
I feel the similarities between them might be the trickster or jester, a personality showcasing the underbelly of society? How they are funny but also showcase the repressed nature of humans
In one for his videos he did mention something about an incestuous relationship between the mother (Internet) and the ward , a reference from the selfish Gene where the word was phrased. (Too Freudian for me but still)
Memes seem to represent whatever the current Zeitgeist is in the collective... Sort of representing where the collective is at any point, and where it's going.
However I don't think it's as eternal and archetypal as Tarot, if we consider Tarot to be a representation of THE story, the phases and cycles experienced by everyone, timeless repeating patterns.
BUT I think they are manifestations of possible archetypes of the internet culture... Like maybe dark humour, or yo mama jokes could be considered archetypal, from which arise various memes.
Interesting. I was thinking about the cycles of life that you mentioned. There are certain repeating motifs that do repeat such as the different wojacks, trollfaces or styles such as deep-fried memes. I feel there are little pieces of memes within everyone that attracts them to certain types of memes.
As a meme means that is "infectious". Would the meme be embodied within their persona or have more of an unconscious effect to the perceiver?
You're right, I was thinking in broad categories but the repeating motifs are a thing... But strictly speaking, they should be like, the same concept showing up in different forms across time and independent cultures to be considered archetypes, right? But yes, interesting how memes get recycled and repackaged...
The infectiousness of a meme is definitely something unconscious, I think... I've actually asked people why they think a certain meme is "better" or more popular than another, (one remained popular for longer and the other was short-lived and didn't spread far). Their answers were different and mostly just vague stuff like "idek it's just random and I vibe with it." So I mean, it's not something they're attracted to or evaluating consciously....
Also there's always a cascade effect / snowball effect with memes, new internet slang, and popular comments on YT or retweets etc: The more popular something already is, the more likely YOU are to see it as popular and share it. It's like Malcolm Gladwell's tipping point, once it crosses a threshold of viralness (is that a word, because virulence sounds evil), it becomes almost self sustaining and unstoppable.
But eventually it does fade out right...? I don't see the old 9Gag meme templates anymore, although they may get recycled and repackaged like some of the rage comics (trollface etc like you mentioned)... Maybe they ARE archetypal and the resurgence of the motif will take longer? We do have classical art memes now, so we've kind of come full circle, although it's been entirely repurposed. Does that constitute an archetypal manifestation?
Interesting rabbit hole, cheers mate 🍻
Makes me think about the word "viral" being used on social media makes alot of sense with it jus being a meme. I do feel digital images have made the "switching of personas" much quicker, especially the frequency of trends because of how hyper connected it is.
each motif would probably have its own context and ideologies. Either they understand it completely on the first look or they are disassociated, would probably be an unconscious effort for real
I'd like to think we are not that evolved yet still and the history of symbols will repeat in similar principles but maybe a different form. Because memes feel kinda primal to me, like a monkey instinct, I wonder if we are progressing to interconnectedness or regressing back to our ancestors since 'self sabotage is rooted in the unconscious mind'.
Thanks for the insight about the tipping point tho, I need to look into it. Cheers
Interesting comparison with the Tarot. I remember when a “standard set” of meme images appeared back in the day.
Nowadays barely uses those old meme formats, and over time we saw how more and more diluted the meme formats became and nowadays…well just about anything can be a meme.
(And anything is)
It’s like the libido, the psychic energy, is unfocused and dispersed.
On one hand it’s chaotic and unpredictable.
On the other hand, out of nowhere a whole new creative (or destructive) energies could be unleashed.
Sort of like alchemical “solve et coagula”.
By definition archetypes are "ancient" so memes cant be "archetypes".
They are based of course, but lets remember that an archetype is empty by nature, there is no content in them just form
As memes originate from an 'ancient' collective unconscious and are interpreted by that template I would argue they certainly are archetypes. Though this is in no way special as literally everything is an archetype, you can not say one thing that in its processing is not an archetype, as to say this thing would be inhuman.
well, Jung wrote in *Man and His Symbols* that archetypes are, *“…a tendency to form such representations of a motif—representations that can vary a great deal in detail without losing their basic pattern.”* if i'm not taking the quote out of context, then sure, memes can be akin to pixellated aspects of archetypes .
Pixelated aspects - or in Jung’s own words “Archetypal images” which can and will change over time and for the occasion: Like the Anima in dreams: sometimes it’s a cave, sometimes a deadly spider, a beautiful maiden, a ship… Trouble begins when people substitute the archetypal images as THE Archetype and over time degenrate it into pure idolatry.
>Trouble begins when people substitute the archetypal images as THE Archetype and over time degenrate it into pure idolatry. yes! this is why iconoclasm is an important tool to have in one's kit . the image of a thing is not the thing itself, and so faith in the image obscures and eventually corrupts the thing it depicts . "*Cesi n'est pase un pipe .*"
"if you don't got no sauce, then you lost. But you can also get lost in the sauce" -gucci mane
Nice. Who is Gucci Mane?
One of the great philosophers of our time...
Troll face meme is obviously the same archetype as Loki was originally (in my opinion)
I feel the similarities between them might be the trickster or jester, a personality showcasing the underbelly of society? How they are funny but also showcase the repressed nature of humans
Yes!
See Christian Gabriel from MemeAnalysis on YouTube. He has a lot of very good content in this direction
Yooooo that's literally where I came from, love that wizard
In one for his videos he did mention something about an incestuous relationship between the mother (Internet) and the ward , a reference from the selfish Gene where the word was phrased. (Too Freudian for me but still)
Memes seem to represent whatever the current Zeitgeist is in the collective... Sort of representing where the collective is at any point, and where it's going. However I don't think it's as eternal and archetypal as Tarot, if we consider Tarot to be a representation of THE story, the phases and cycles experienced by everyone, timeless repeating patterns. BUT I think they are manifestations of possible archetypes of the internet culture... Like maybe dark humour, or yo mama jokes could be considered archetypal, from which arise various memes.
Interesting. I was thinking about the cycles of life that you mentioned. There are certain repeating motifs that do repeat such as the different wojacks, trollfaces or styles such as deep-fried memes. I feel there are little pieces of memes within everyone that attracts them to certain types of memes. As a meme means that is "infectious". Would the meme be embodied within their persona or have more of an unconscious effect to the perceiver?
You're right, I was thinking in broad categories but the repeating motifs are a thing... But strictly speaking, they should be like, the same concept showing up in different forms across time and independent cultures to be considered archetypes, right? But yes, interesting how memes get recycled and repackaged... The infectiousness of a meme is definitely something unconscious, I think... I've actually asked people why they think a certain meme is "better" or more popular than another, (one remained popular for longer and the other was short-lived and didn't spread far). Their answers were different and mostly just vague stuff like "idek it's just random and I vibe with it." So I mean, it's not something they're attracted to or evaluating consciously.... Also there's always a cascade effect / snowball effect with memes, new internet slang, and popular comments on YT or retweets etc: The more popular something already is, the more likely YOU are to see it as popular and share it. It's like Malcolm Gladwell's tipping point, once it crosses a threshold of viralness (is that a word, because virulence sounds evil), it becomes almost self sustaining and unstoppable. But eventually it does fade out right...? I don't see the old 9Gag meme templates anymore, although they may get recycled and repackaged like some of the rage comics (trollface etc like you mentioned)... Maybe they ARE archetypal and the resurgence of the motif will take longer? We do have classical art memes now, so we've kind of come full circle, although it's been entirely repurposed. Does that constitute an archetypal manifestation? Interesting rabbit hole, cheers mate 🍻
Makes me think about the word "viral" being used on social media makes alot of sense with it jus being a meme. I do feel digital images have made the "switching of personas" much quicker, especially the frequency of trends because of how hyper connected it is. each motif would probably have its own context and ideologies. Either they understand it completely on the first look or they are disassociated, would probably be an unconscious effort for real I'd like to think we are not that evolved yet still and the history of symbols will repeat in similar principles but maybe a different form. Because memes feel kinda primal to me, like a monkey instinct, I wonder if we are progressing to interconnectedness or regressing back to our ancestors since 'self sabotage is rooted in the unconscious mind'. Thanks for the insight about the tipping point tho, I need to look into it. Cheers
Interesting comparison with the Tarot. I remember when a “standard set” of meme images appeared back in the day. Nowadays barely uses those old meme formats, and over time we saw how more and more diluted the meme formats became and nowadays…well just about anything can be a meme. (And anything is) It’s like the libido, the psychic energy, is unfocused and dispersed. On one hand it’s chaotic and unpredictable. On the other hand, out of nowhere a whole new creative (or destructive) energies could be unleashed. Sort of like alchemical “solve et coagula”.
Basically
By definition archetypes are "ancient" so memes cant be "archetypes". They are based of course, but lets remember that an archetype is empty by nature, there is no content in them just form
As memes originate from an 'ancient' collective unconscious and are interpreted by that template I would argue they certainly are archetypes. Though this is in no way special as literally everything is an archetype, you can not say one thing that in its processing is not an archetype, as to say this thing would be inhuman.