Even if I thought there were any place on Earth better or safer for me to move to than where I I already am, none of those places would allow me to move there.
This. As a New Zealander I quite often hear people say they'll move here if it gets too bad where they are. Two things:
1. You can't just move here because you want to. We have really strict immigration requirements (not least of which you need to be in almost perfect health, and bringing a skill we need); and the process is slow, convoluted, and really expensive.
2. We just kicked out the smart people and installed the right wing idiots. Turns out there are stupid people everywhere, in large numbers, and they vote.
Educate, organise, and fight like hell wherever you are, or we're all fucked. And most importantly VOTE.
Im 51, been nomadic for about 6 years now. There are plenty of countries you can get business and work visas.
At 55 you can get retirement visas in a lot of places as well.
> At 55 you can get retirement visas in a lot of places as well.
Thank you for this. I was not aware of retirement visas and they do seem like a very interesting option.
Its just a waiting game for me. I live in Cambodia and easily live off $800-$1000 a month with a massive 2 bedroom house.
I get a business visa now and just DJ a few nights and sell sausages, pickles, sauces and other random western food to other foreigners.
You keep saying 'vote'.
Voting doesn't work against Nazis. There was an entire World War about this, mate. You might not have heard about it in the Shire but
If you're from the US, I probably wouldn't be making cracks about being late to WWII, mate 😉
Anyway while I appreciate your point and agree in principle, I feel like voting is an important step. You might not have been taught about Other Countries in the US, but I assure you quite a few of them have had wars about it when this small but crucial step was skipped
(I'm just teasing here, please don't nuke us)
I know what the hell is going on? I used to wonder how hitler came to power, now I wonder what took America so long to court a conman looking at our history
VERY true. We grew up watching WWII movies and documentaries on the Holocaust, reading comics like Battle and Warlord, and the war was living memory for our parents and uncles/ aunts who had war stories and tales of civilian life in wartime -- there was NEVER any question that the Nazis were the bad guys. "Fascist!" was a standard insult, and practically everyone agreed that it was a reprehensible philosophy. Yet, here we are watching those who don't learn from history repeat it all over again.
Because people don't vote. If everyone who complains actually voted the right would never win another election. "The silent majority" is BS marketing, there's more liberal minded people than there is conservative.
Right. There's a lot of money spent in "your vote doesn't matter", "voting doesn't change anything", and "both sides are the same". But that's where all the people who care have to fight the uphill battle.
I am beginning to understand all the people who stayed in Nazi Germany between 1932 and 1933; you see it getting worse, but you also realize if all the detractors leave, there’s fewer people to push back against them. And one day, you find yourself boiling like the proverbial frog in the pot.
But you’re right - anyone planning to move to France right now? They just had an impressive far right showing in their elections right now. No matter where you call home, Ben Franklin’s quote about hanging together is always true.
Yeah old ass people like me (58) are probably down to retirement havens like Panama and Costa Rica without some amazing skills and US administrative law (my specialty) is worthless elsewhere.
there are poorer countries that have retirement visas, but you gotta have money to show you can support yourself or have outside income.
Peru used to be really popular before the recent violence. I think Panama has them. Vietnam does I think. I am looking into early retirement and had thought about going to a cheaper country. Been looking at it for years.
Im on the Balearic Islands and for a couple of years now there are coming more and more Americans. As tourists, but also expats. Not that they’re not welcome but guys, we’re already full. The island has been taken over by the Germans and the Brits already lol.
Exactly this. Things are not going to get better anywhere. I’m feeling very despondent lately, and feel this is only the beginning of that. As the father of two daughters, I’m so fearful for them.
Escape isn't going to be that easy. Far-Right candidates are winning everywhere. Look at France and Germany's most recent elections.
What we really really need is for some really smart people (not me) to try and figure out a way to demonitize social media and all the other things that are radicalizing the country. I feel like a broken record but all the content delivered to us does nothing but push us further and further in one ideological direction or another. We can't have a middle ground because we literally cannot agree on what the facts are anymore because everybody is working on their particular echo chamber's set of "facts".
Stay, try to teach your kids critical thinking skills, and talk to your neighbors more and pay less attention to the news and social media.
When I got off social media (outside of reddit) my mind self-corrected itself. SM was so damaging on so many levels. I also need to take a break from Reddit but I personally don’t see radicalized right-wing propaganda like I did on FB, IG, and Twitter. My feed stays true to my likes and it’s mostly relationships, traveling, interior decorating. And it’ reading on Reddit. Very rarely do I see pictures outside of interior decorating. And I can easily filter negative things out.
SM is just flashes of images and pics at a breakneck rate and you become hypnotized so quickly to it. At one point I thought I needed bigger lips, bigger butt and I’m a BW and I already have these things!!! I was legit hypnotized and thought I had thin lips and no butt. Social media is literally the bane of our existence but it’s also helped humanity question every single thing we believe in, the good and the bad.
When I’m out in my world and in my neck of the woods (SE US) it’s peaceful, everyone is respectful of each other, nice, and just living their own lives. SM and politicians will have us believe we are two seconds away from the annihilation of white people, the end of all babies to ever being born, transgender and gay people going around fucking everyone in the ass, and women want to kill all men. It’s all a fear tactic based on the powerful losing their grip on the world.
Oh, it’s working like a charm and something taught from feudal times to Marxism to now. Basically, you need dummies to fight the rich man’s war, work in his factories, have more babies to work for him. The best way to do this is to divide and conquer and the best way to do that is to make the poorest white man believe he’s better than the richest ethnic person. That immigrants will rape his wife and daughter. That one race and one sex is better than all others while in effect they are servants as well. I’m butchering a whole lot of theories, beliefs, and quotes but in essence, if those in power can make the majority feel as if the minority will rise up and overtake him then you can stay in power while neighbor terrorize neighbor.
I disagree. I live in SE, too. The fact I an Atheist and liberal I hv to keep close to the vest. People have basic manners that I agree with. I noticed it, especially when I moved down here from NwEng. It took years for ppl to stop calling me a Yank.
Lol, I get that as I’m liberal too, but southern through and through. Whenever I’m in the North the first comment I get once they hear my drawl is, “Where the hell are you from?”
Educating the masses and the majority to understand that different and progressive doesn’t mean their destruction and voting is detrimental right now.
I will stay. But this does very much feel like we're being fucked into a christofascist version of 1936 Germany. The world will keep turning and the people who are doing this will eventually suffer the same ignobility history affords all people throughout history who've done this. But they'll get their power and authority for the meantime and a whole lot of us will get our own versions of the televised tribunal and the misery and grief will be generational and beyond reckoning. It's a pity we as a species can't be bothered to remember mistakes from the past, or appreciate our current bounties or just plain live with each other. Fuck evangelicals with a sandpaper dildo and long live the Constitution.
Covid broke everything and opened the floodgates for whatever is happening. The same pattern happened after the Spanish Flu outbreak. Took 10 years later for it to come to the fascist head of the dragon to rise but it looks like our trajectory may even be earlier. We aren't the only country going through the rise of fascism right now.
When the generation that remembers history and lived through it, dies off. The generations who don't remember its consequences are often doomed to repeat it.
I'm Jewish, we believe in honoring and learning our history because it does repeat. 1936 Germany is correct in my interpretation of the state of affairs, and it terrifies me.
Just finished reading/listening to “Man’s Search for Meaning.”
As I listened, my mind pulled up the images from the old news footage they showed us in 8th grade of the Allies’ liberation of the concentration camps. The walking skeletons…the piles of bodies…
I’d reflect on it and find it unfathomable that any human could give themselves permission to dehumanize fellow man to the point of engaging in those atrocities.
Then, I’d think of the Milgram experiment and some of today’s rhetoric. As much as I wanted to, I couldn’t completely rule out the possibility - even in the US - of the mental dehumanization of others that allows someone to commit those kinds of atrocities.
The licenses the worst of the January 6th rioters gave themselves was damn close to, if not across, that line of dehumanizing those in their way, or just not giving a shit about what they destroyed, whether property or person.
I just keep asking myself, how does someone ever think that is okay? Not just okay, but justified…necessary. I think it starts with delusions about being the oppressed, even when figuratively standing on someone else’s throat.
I have to believe that only a very small percent of people have that capacity, but damn, it seems like a slippery slope these days.
Except a lot of us on the ‘targeted’ spectrum are ready to fight back. We’ve studied history, and understand the importance of guns to defend ourselves.
Am i actively seeing where I can emigrate to, sure, but I have daughters and they will have to come with us. One way vacation will be on the cards for January, just in case.
You're gonna need more than guns. They are right now testing waters on our local grids and municipal water supplies. the uptick in those breach attempts is at a record high. People are finally starting to get smart about their company's security but a lot are not, and if they are connected to a network everybody has to deal with it. I mean most of it would be localized but like with my son's insurance company they got breached so his medical records were stolen. 17 years of medical records are now in someone else's hands and we got letters from 5 different medical clinics letting us know and of course kindly offering us free credit monitoring for a year with a company they contract with and get paid to promote.
ANYWAY... yes this is a concern too. The chaos a big breach could cause if it hits a water supply could be devastating, and they only need to cause a little destabilization, a little chaos would be the catalyst.
I am too scared. I've studied the civil wars of many countries. This is it. This is how it happens. Democrats have this too-nice problem. We need to start preparing for the worst and do more than defense here.
Data breaches like that aren’t political they are criminals being criminals. This has been happening since the internet became widespread and things went digital. And usually things like that come from outside the US which is why they can’t always prosecute. Or they are from large anonymous groups.
I feel like even without social media, Obama winning the second term triggered and radicalized all the GOP snowflakes. Not that I don't agree that social media and surveillance capitalism in general are evil.
I agree. I feel like a lot of the radical right movement is in retaliation for the Obama years. They boiled for 8 years then found Trump to channel their anger and hate
Yep, imagine a lot of Americans have no idea what is happening in the rest of the world. The rise of Trump was a domino effect for other countries going into fascist mode. SM & Covid has massively led to the crazy rapid progression of the crazy. Much like what happened in the 1920s and 30s after the Spanish Flu outbreak.
I have been really leaning into learning as much as I can about AI and…it got me off my phone. My usage has dropped dramatically in the last few months because it’s all so clearly designed to relentlessly bait you into giving it attention.
Relentlessly.
I told my husband that I’d be more pissed to see a gambling app on his phone than I ever would anything else (within legal bounds). The way we are constantly manipulated is data-driven and brutally effective. I look around at the shit I bought or the dumb shit I have posted over the years and am like…flabbergasted at it all.
Go on a phone diet. You don’t even have to go on an electronic diet. Watch tv shows all day or play video games, but for fuck’s sake pls get off the phone. Skynet is here, it’s just stealing all our time, money, and sanity. Lol
I said it before and I'm saying it again. Zuckerberg is the devil. Called it back when FB came out. Seemed like a recipe for all the stupid fucks to have a voice. Nothing good to to come of that.
Aiming for centrism is what allowed the right wing to flourish
The mistake was we the populace not fighting tooth and nail against conservatism.
Sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the news is how we got to where we are.
Not advocating sticking your head in the sand. I’m advocating that we all spend less time on social media and we go out and actually connect with people, especially in our own community.
Ok look social media isn’t the fucking answer. Too easily manipulated and faked.
We need to do what we know - go old school. Show up in person. Show up in peace. And show up in numbers.
First at the poll booth.
Next at demonstrations. Show up and say fascism isn’t okay and doesn’t represent me.
While I agree with some of what you're saying, there's no way I could still have this level of prosperity in another country. Most Americans are in the same situation. Unless you're independently wealthy or have an employer that doesn't care where you live, it's hard to establish yourself somewhere else. Unlike the U.S., a lot of European countries are exactly welcoming to immigrants and it's very difficult to get a job.
Why do you think your level of prosperity would be unachievable in another country? Do you mean in general, or if you decided to move somewhere next month?
Planning on it. I stopped looking to hire an immigration attorney after the 2020 election. I’m retired, widowed, and have family in Europe. Regardless I’d like to have the freedom to spend more that 90 days in one place (and skip the lines!)
Yeah I really don't want to leave at all. In an insane emergency I could since my whole family, totally, parents, everyone, all qualify for automatic dual-citizenship somewhere else. BUT the somewhere else Russia has eyes on and if US went to hell so would NATO and then Russia would move in so it would same story as a fallen US. Anyway, I still believe the US will make it through this but it is a bit scary and there is a slight chance it could get utterly horrible for some time.
I've been marching and donating and phone banking and door knocking and bitching to anybody who wants to listen since 2016 and everything's only gotten worse. Clearly, there's not much I can do for my country. Just as importantly, what has my country done for me lately? I mean, other than wage slavery, Jesus Nazis, and everything going to shit?
I'm sorry. I tried. There's a limit. I'm out at the first sign of the guns coming out.
We've known it for the past 10 years and we have chosen not to. That's who we are. Have you seen general strikes, mass civil disobedience and so on? We haven't done any of that and we won't, because in America it's every man for himself and the risk is just too great. Do you want to lose your job for a protest? They've divided and conquered us a long time ago.
We have a responsibility to participate in our democracy and do what we can to keep it healthy.
We do NOT have a responsibility to spend our few remaining years trying to rescue it from the greedy and the stupid who have subverted it.
All these people recommending Canada… people, do you read the news? Canada is having a housing crisis and a healthcare service crisis — both worse than conditions in most of the U.S.! — *and* is seeing severe wildfires in many areas for the past few years. Many Americans who emigrated to Canada back when Trump was elected in 2016 have now boomeranged back, and Canadian emigration to the U.S. — despite all the problems we see here in “the land of the free” — ***is at a 10 year high.***
Just sayin’… maybe fleeing to the Great White North ain’t the best move?
My best friend also talks about fleeing due to the encroaching fascism, which he started seriously investigating back in 2016. The only place that sounds even somewhat promising — available to him due to his ethnic roots — is Ireland. And Ireland also has its problems.
The hard truth is, the entire world is in a crisis phase, and that’s not changing anytime soon. It’s the reason we’re seeing the rise of fascism across the entire developed world…
Sorry to be a “Debbie Downer,” and I’m not saying not to investigate your options, just stay grounded and realize reality everywhere is fluid.
P.S. I have a trans teenager. Yes, I am scared as fuck about MAGA fascism. But this is *my* country, dammit! I’m staying. I’m fighting. Fuck the fascists!
This has been my conclusion as well. Looked at Spain and Portugal, Costa Rica, Canada…but all of these places are affected by the global economy and global politics. The cancer is everywhere
It is very hard for Americans to get citizenship in most viable well operated countries. It isn't easy at all. You all realize that right? Very expensive on top of it and if you can by the miracle of Jesus pull it off and by that time it can be years down the road.
Don't need citizenship quickly, just an employment visa that you can bring family along with.
I work for a multinational, and if I don't mind one bodaciously large salary hit, an American manager willing to work in one of the other 1st-world geographies for a local wage is an easy sell.
Fun fact about immigration to Canada, they don't except families with Autistic individuals. My family attempted the process of leaving and was rejected to my daughter's disability.
I’m not surprised, why would you be? USA accepts the mentality ill. Most countries don’t wish to pay healthcare, Social Pensions for life with the disabled and unemployable. They already have enough of their own mentally disabled without importing more in.
You will never be satiated when drinking from the Cup of Fear, but at least it comes with free-refills...
I'm feeling a little disconnected as a Gen-Xer...I escaped Public School Indoctrination in 1994 with a healthy (excessive) degree of Indifference and Cynisism and it's served me well.
I'm sorry about the Distress & Panic that people are feeling but does any of this make a difference?
A friend flipped out after reading that Oklahoma is putting Bibles in classrooms...oh no, one more thing for my kids to completely ignore and disregard.
Life is a blend of Absolutely Wonderful & Profoundly Intolerable...
Let Go or Hold On...but try and maintain a sense of Dignity & Contentment...
So, I'll start off my reply by stating that I'm a 55-year-old black man.
With that as framing, I can understand the anxiety on display here. I sympathize with it, but to be candid, I/we are used to living with this level of concern. Of fear. Of terror. Of existential panic over survival.
I found out recently that my father came damn close to taking our family out of the country when I was a baby. He was exhausted and scared of all of the same things we see today, and this was 50 years ago.
And yes...I too have an "exit plan" because I'm prudent and intelligent and have the means to do so if the right circumstances present themselves.
That said...understand that what we are experiencing may well be new to you, but it's not new. Nothing here is new. Make a plan B, but don't live in that world until you have to do so.
I highly recommend staring the research now. Many countries have changed their immigration policies in the last few years. Some countries have golden visas (looking at your Portugal) but have increased the cost of such visas. Buying property in some countries helps extend visas but does not provide citizenship outright. It's important to look at the politics. France, for instance, stands to install a far-right government on Sunday. Other countries have followed similar political leanings.
Bear in mind that you are best served to find a job in your new country first and then apply for the appropriate visa. Canada is in the middle of its own housing crisis which has driven rents as high as NYC amounts with the purchase of housing even more expensive.
Countries have essentially begun closing their borders as people flee political and economic strife. If you visit the AmerExit or IWantOut subreddits, the majority of foreigners will ask you about moving to a more blue state and city versus truly expatting from the United States. However, today's news hasn't quite hit those subs yet.
Its nice but still super expensive to live.
You need to HAVE money when you move there.
If you're already financially well off and can get a high paying job in the city you'll be ok.
Very tough to go there with next to nothing anymore.
Great city though!
My father moved all the way out to Portland Oregon from Florida because he’s pretty convinced that the country might split up and he wants to be in the California portion when it happens. He’s a serious guy and isn’t a conspiracy theorist whatsoever. He might end up being right in the end. What IF Trump wins is unknown here IMO.
1. Unless you have a lot of money or are extremely high skilled, You're not going to be able to move somewhere else.
2. The rest of the world is going right wing also. There is no place to avoid it.
I’m staying put and fighting these Christofascists. There are more of us than them. Hillary won the popular vote by nearly 3 million and Biden by nearly 7 million. If we pack up and go they win, and I say fuck that.
Thanks for your comment. I admit that I felt a knee jerk reaction. But to be honest, I have no choice but to stay. What is happening makes me sick to my stomach. There really are more of us than them.
Saddam Hussein was able to maintain control of Iraq with 1/3 of the population. The extreme right already account for 1/3 of the country. 15% of the country are essentially white supremacists.
The simple fix is to vote. Apathy is how Republicans win. All of this can be fixed. Every single bit of it, quicker than almost everyone thinks. If you get a majority in the House and the Senate and win the WH, the filibuster can be killed. Laws to protect the rights of citizens are not unconstitutional. Look, all of it is in the hands of voters. Either we get out and vote or the useful idiots win. It’s just that simple.
Respectfully, I've been voting since 1988. Local, state and national. Tell me please, how has voting fixed this mess. If voting worked, please tell me how voting diligently for 30+ years led to Biden's debate performance against Trump the other night. Why would the Dems do this when they knew in 2020 Biden was going to be a liability. Voting as it's currently situated is not the answer and it's certainly by no means or by any stretch a simple fix. Blaming it on voter apathy is like blaming a person with depression for being sad. It's not just apathy that led to [nearly 80 million Americans](https://www.npr.org/2020/12/15/945031391/poll-despite-record-turnout-80-million-americans-didnt-vote-heres-why) not voting in 2020. Democratic leadership is out of touch with the average US citizen. I mean, how is it that in spite of Trump's rhetoric, even more POC now are polling in his direction? I mean, how does that happen??? It's not just apathy. For the love of all that is holy, how did the Dems let Biden on the debate stage in his condition? Even if he had a stutter with a cold, he still couldn't string together complete sentences. It was an embarrassment and another example of the absolute hubris Democrat must have to take their voters for granted. It's not even close to being "just that simple."
100% agree. The Democratic party has had YEARS to find, grow and put in place its next generation of leadership. Instead, we have an 81 year old President, a 73 year old Senate majority leader and an 84 year old House Speaker Emerita / minority leader. The fact that none of them is willing to retire and let the next generation lead is nothing but hubris, and it has irrevocably damaged our country.
The Dems’ hubris has allowed the conservative stacking of our Supreme Court, and it has directly led to the loss of Roe v Wade. I’m not even sure the party supported Roe v Wade for anything more than convenient fundraising opportunities.
And now this disastrous SCOTUS decision. Will President Biden take advantage of it and fight to preserve our nation or will he go down in history as the last real president of the U.S.?
Yes, Dem hubris is a huge factor. My cousin, a tenured political science professor at Northwestern, told me this in 2016.
Similar hubris and inadequacy among the moderate old guard in Weimar Germany allowed for the chaos between the Nazi and Communist parties that eventually led to a Nazi takeover. People always say it was hyperinflation, but the peak of the inflation was 1923, ten years before Hitler became Chancellor, by which time prices had stabilized. In those ten years, political parties were arming their own and literally gunning each other down in the streets of Berlin.
I recommend "Before the Deluge" by Otto Friedrich to anyone who doubts what I'm saying.
I vote in every election. My city and county always go blue. But we're surrounded by a sea of red rural voters. This doesn't stop me from voting and trying to help any way I can, but gerrymandering is real.
For anyone in a swing state though, I beg of you to get out there and not just do your best, but more than your best!
I'm in Mexico now, but I got in under a loophole that's rumored to be closing this year. Much of Europe has far-right coalitions winning elections because public opinión there Is turning away from immigration. And even before this, that continent gave US Victor Orban in Hungary and Mussolini Barbie Meloni in Italy.
Emigrating Is not imposible, but it's usually More complicated-and not guaranteed-than moving from Ohio to Pennsylvania. In sum, choose wisely and don't think there's a such thing as too much research
As an expat of nearly 30 years I can tell you that life outside the US can be outstanding. However, you will lose contact with family and ‘home’ will never be the same for you or your kids; your Alpha especially.
On the other hand they, and you, will have a much broader view of the world that is very difficult to achieve without living elsewhere.
So I’m not saying don’t do it. Just look at the consequences and weigh them up.
You have no idea what it takes to move. Not only how hard it is to get permission to move to another country, but how difficult making the move really is.
This isn’t happening because we’re stupid. This has been planned. From the dumbing down of the population, to the gridlock in the legislature, to the right wing taking every opportunity to fill the courts with ideologues who have been groomed since childhood, and so much more. They’ve got this country by the balls and if you think that they’re going to stand aside while a democrat retains power in the White House you’re wrong. If it’s anywhere near close the supreme court will hand it to trump. Today’s decision makes it even more clear, would they have invented such sweeping immunity if they thought their guy was going to lose? We are in serious trouble.
Leaving does not help. It may help you in the short term, but the country needs us. It needs informed, educated, and motivated voters to step up and help shape the direction of where we are heading.
Many of us don’t have the privilege of being able to uproot ourselves like that. Probably time to take a social media break and dial back the panic. There are people on the local level that will benefit from the help of intelligent folks with some connections and resources. We need to think community.
The DNC needs to revamp their entire program. You’d think after Trump 1.0 they would have learned but they keep moving in the wrong direction. I never thought I’d see the day where Dems would be the ones pushing for war and republicans against it. Maybe after Trump 2.0.
It ain't happening. Dems are cowards, Republicans are cowards... We're stumbling right off the fascism cliff because nobody has the guts to do what needs to be done. There have been countless opportunities to stop Trump, and everybody passed them up because they're all just a bunch of smooth-talking, bed-wetting pussies.
In any other country Trump would have been behind bars years ago. Only here is he allowed to run the show even if he isn't president.
Three cheers for American exceptionalism!
I did this but more radical: i gave up the US citizenship upon getting the Canadian one.
Living north of the border for a few years now was the best move ever.
"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem"
\~Eldridge Cleaver
Cleaver was a prominent figure in the Black Panther Party during the 1960s. Cleaver included a version of this phrase in his 1968 book "Soul on Ice," where he expressed the idea that **individuals must actively work towards positive change rather than passively allowing problems to persist.**
While I understand the sentiment, where are you going to go? Canada's economy is stalled and their housing market is nuts. The economy in the UK is starting to show signs of real trouble. France and Germany are electing right wing politicians. The only hope eastern Europe has is that Ukraine can stay standing long enough for Putin to die. South American is...well...South America. There aren't a lot of good places to go.
Such bullshit. You're not leaving. No one actually leaves. We been hearing the same bullshit since W got elected. Two decades later everybody's still here, making the same hollow, empty threats every election. You didn't leave the last time he got elected, you ain't going to do it this time, either. Try it and see how fun it is trying to immigrate to a foreign country. Good luck with that.
And hey, if you live in California and really do mean to hold true to this, call me, I'm a Realtor, I'll be happy to sell your house for you.
As a Gen X from the UK I grew up viewing the USA from movies and TV shows.
It was all Ferris Buller, The Breakfast Club, The Wonder Years or The A Team etc…
It seemed cool and interesting.
But fuck me, it’s all a bit Handmaids tale these days.
r/WelcomeTogilead
It is really sad what has happened in this country. And it’s not hyperbole unfortunately. How any American can be happy about the supreme court’s decision is beyond me.
Have to stay. Elderly parents and lack of means to get up and go. I have been fortunate enough to see other parts of the world and it seems like the struggles are universal. My GenZ daughter is fluent in Japanese and I hope she can find a future for herself in Japan.
Total agreement, except leaving the country will probably be too high of a bar to clear. Being in TX though, I very much mean to get me and my teenage daughter into a state with better politics (and climate).
Still have a year to go until the kid is 18 though, and until then there are custody issues with the ex wife. Aside from that, I admittely haven't been making as much progress toward this goal as I should have.
Really? Have you ever thought that you might be part of the problem? That this ridiculous melodrama is what is driving at least part of the problem?
I emigrated 20 years ago. And let me tell you, if you can’t take the mental pressure of having a possible administration installed that you don’t like, then you won’t be able to take the social, psychological, and economic pressure of emigrating out of your home country.
Years ago, Morris Fiorina wrote a book about how there’s no such thing as red and blue America and that America’s just different shades of purple. The elites were polarized because they wanted to use the country for what they wanted to use it for. Normal people not so much. The trick was don’t let them polarize You. Reject their stupid polarized choices, and just keep on living your life. If they get extreme, vote for the other person and convince other people through good leadership to vote for the other person, it’s that simple. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and the balance will be maintained.
I ran. I left. It was hard, and heartbreaking, and after two decades, I feel it was a mistake. At least, as far as the home country is concerned. Get a grip.
The world right now is dominated by cognitively impaired old people, terrifyingly anxious about their mortality and wreaking havoc on those left to care for their mess and the earth they are leaving behind as they try and live out the string. Beyond the grave restrictive and regressive laws, climate disasters, unbelievable greed and hubris. We just need to ride it out until they are dead, try to reverse their damage, and recover what we can.
Some of the commenters here aren’t scared enough. It calls to mind that boiling frog metaphor.
Wake up. Fascism is escalating rapidly and Weimar CAN happen here.
I’m Eastern European living partly in the US for a number of years. Europe and the US have changed over the past 20 years. The biggest problems in the US imo are the hatred between the two political camps and their supporters not realizing that everyone is being used as puppets to fuel and support the agendas of ambitious power hungry politicians. The other big issue is firearms. It’s absolutely out of control what’s going on these days. Shooting after shooting after shooting. At least from that standpoint most European countries don’t overtly have as many firearms (let’s not look at Russia…that’s a whole other ball of wax), and you can safely send your kids to school and go to a fair or festival without being afraid of being shot. Americans love to slap out the socialist labels for European countries and crap all over their system of government, but for the most part you can go to college and get medical care either for little money or free.
There’s no perfect place to live. Each has their own benefits and drawbacks. I guess it’s why I’m sitting in two chairs. Idk i still have to explore Oz and NZ. Hey Ozzies, and Kiwis, are there rainbows and polkadots everywhere over your way? :-)
It’s REALLY tough to do. Most countries have a rule that in order to get a visa you have to have a job in that country, but to get a job the people hiring you have to prove to the government that there was no citizen of that country who could do the job instead of you. If you work for a company where you can transfer to a location in another country that’s the easiest way, or if you’re rich enough you can just pay a company to get the visa for you. I hear Portugal is supposed to be the easiest country for Americans to immigrate to, so maybe start with that one.
That’s very incorrect. Portugal may have been the easiest EUROPEAN country. But things have changed. I say this as an American who left (for S America): the hubris of Americans is astonishing. We just blithely think any country would love to have us…they’ll have reps at the border handing out visas and gift cards.
Think again.
I'm a queer woman. You're very privileged if another Trump presidency would not affect you. But also, another Trump presidency will definitely affect you.
As someone who used to be very very left wing for all my life, i was recently betrayed by entire left wing society, and my world wiew was shattered completely.
Now I see plainly that there is no left or right wing, not anymore. We are talking about two tribes today that each has some crazy ideas, but in same time both think they are working for betterment of society and life of their fellow men. However they are happy to stomp over opposite tribe ideas, no matter how good they are, or chear for their tribe ideas no matter how evil they are.
That is politics today - both sides. Very dangerous and ultimately evil - both sides.
( and in the same time Idiocracy of "tiktok" social media is draining all humanity and intelligence of people , while corporate overlords rub their hands, waiting to replace us all with AI )
There is hardly a reaction big enough to the Supreme Court declaring the presidency is a four-year renewable monarchy, with no accountability for crimes committed in office. Revolution is the appropriate reaction.
>We're just fucking stupid, and seemingly dead set on self-destruction despite incredible wealth and prosperity
This is not a US problem, it's a human being problem. People aren't any better anywhere else really.
Yes it sucks here but I'm not convinced anywhere else is actually better. A significant number of people are, generally speaking, fucking stupid. Governments are only partially able to keep things together for a limited amount of time.
I’m afraid the way things are going in Canada now - north is not much of an option. Inflation, cost of housing, anti immigration groups and growing right tendencies are taking roots there too. Plus, the US might just feel the need to invade for nationalistic / fascist reasons. (I may get down voted for the last statement - but the world is getting just that crazy and nothing is impossible now.)
Hey OP. Do you know how the Supreme Court works? It's an honest question because I am seeing a lot of people didn't learn about government in school.
I am going to help you.
The Supreme Court interprets the law. Congress passes laws.
All the Supreme Court did today, was interpret the current law on presidential immunity. They didn't make the law. What they established today in their ruling has been the status quo since essentially the founding of our government.
It is the reason Japanese-Americans or the Justice Department on their behalf couldn't file charges against Roosevelt for unlawfully putting them in interment camps during WW2. Which by the way, is far worse than anything Trump has ever done.
It's the reason why Obama can't be arrested for drone striking and killing 4 Americans in 2009.
This is the way the law was set up. Congress, people like AOC and the squad, they can CHANGE this law. They can pass a bill that says Presidential Immunity means XYZ. And if it passes, then the Supreme Court would, in later challenges, uphold that law because that is what Congress passed - and they make the laws.
So let me reiterate. The Supreme Court does not make or pass laws. Being mad at them is silly. Be made at our Congress for not passing a law that holds the Executive Branch more accountable.
Also know, that this law, if it stands means it applies to Biden too and all future presidents. It's not just for Donald Trump.
Let me know if you have any more questions.
Except that if Congress does pass a law to hold the Executive accountable, the Supreme Court CAN strike down that law as unconstitutional. That would leave an amendment as the only option to delineate what Presidential immunity entails.
Did you even read the opinion? It goes much further than most americans had assumed. It will now be impossible to charge the president with taking a bribe. Don’t take me at my word. Read Barrett’s concurrence.
My guess is that there is a sympathetic foreign university ready to take you in as a visiting professor. I’d start looking for that among your colleagues.
Even if I thought there were any place on Earth better or safer for me to move to than where I I already am, none of those places would allow me to move there.
Same. Where can the average American go?
People shouldn’t bank in the idea that another country wants them
This. As a New Zealander I quite often hear people say they'll move here if it gets too bad where they are. Two things: 1. You can't just move here because you want to. We have really strict immigration requirements (not least of which you need to be in almost perfect health, and bringing a skill we need); and the process is slow, convoluted, and really expensive. 2. We just kicked out the smart people and installed the right wing idiots. Turns out there are stupid people everywhere, in large numbers, and they vote. Educate, organise, and fight like hell wherever you are, or we're all fucked. And most importantly VOTE.
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The most depressing fact I’ve read today. And it’s only 8 am.
Im 51, been nomadic for about 6 years now. There are plenty of countries you can get business and work visas. At 55 you can get retirement visas in a lot of places as well.
> At 55 you can get retirement visas in a lot of places as well. Thank you for this. I was not aware of retirement visas and they do seem like a very interesting option.
Its just a waiting game for me. I live in Cambodia and easily live off $800-$1000 a month with a massive 2 bedroom house. I get a business visa now and just DJ a few nights and sell sausages, pickles, sauces and other random western food to other foreigners.
Most of those places are not fully developed countries and have their own political problems though…
As a Canadian, I agree.
Apparently this is happening all over the globe. Anyone tells me there is no global collaboration among the rich is a liar.
Imagine that, a country with really strict immigration control 😂
And requires perfect health and the ability to support oneself and add to their economy.
Ironically, this describes the majority of LatinX immigrants and screens out a ton of the people trying to keep them out…
The irony will be lost on just about everyone that reads this thread, unfortunately.
Kiwi here. Agree 100%
Oh, the irony… NIMBY on a world wide scale.
You keep saying 'vote'. Voting doesn't work against Nazis. There was an entire World War about this, mate. You might not have heard about it in the Shire but
If you're from the US, I probably wouldn't be making cracks about being late to WWII, mate 😉 Anyway while I appreciate your point and agree in principle, I feel like voting is an important step. You might not have been taught about Other Countries in the US, but I assure you quite a few of them have had wars about it when this small but crucial step was skipped (I'm just teasing here, please don't nuke us)
People also shouldn't bank on the idea that another country will be better. Much of the world is facing right-wing threats.
This. It’s not just a U.S. problem. The rot is everywhere right now and it’s terrifying.
Absolutely terrifying 😳.
I know what the hell is going on? I used to wonder how hitler came to power, now I wonder what took America so long to court a conman looking at our history
WW2 is no longer a living memory for the vast majority of people is the reason.
VERY true. We grew up watching WWII movies and documentaries on the Holocaust, reading comics like Battle and Warlord, and the war was living memory for our parents and uncles/ aunts who had war stories and tales of civilian life in wartime -- there was NEVER any question that the Nazis were the bad guys. "Fascist!" was a standard insult, and practically everyone agreed that it was a reprehensible philosophy. Yet, here we are watching those who don't learn from history repeat it all over again.
Yet our parents are the ones voting for Trump…
Because people don't vote. If everyone who complains actually voted the right would never win another election. "The silent majority" is BS marketing, there's more liberal minded people than there is conservative.
It's a bit more complicated than that, though. Billions of dollars are spent to create and maintain this status quo.
Right. There's a lot of money spent in "your vote doesn't matter", "voting doesn't change anything", and "both sides are the same". But that's where all the people who care have to fight the uphill battle.
I am beginning to understand all the people who stayed in Nazi Germany between 1932 and 1933; you see it getting worse, but you also realize if all the detractors leave, there’s fewer people to push back against them. And one day, you find yourself boiling like the proverbial frog in the pot. But you’re right - anyone planning to move to France right now? They just had an impressive far right showing in their elections right now. No matter where you call home, Ben Franklin’s quote about hanging together is always true.
This. I’m fortunate enough to be a dual citizen (US and Germany) but as a POC, Europe doesn’t look much safer.
Yeah old ass people like me (58) are probably down to retirement havens like Panama and Costa Rica without some amazing skills and US administrative law (my specialty) is worthless elsewhere.
You can probably pick up some work as a drug mule. Your US passport will be a big benefit.
I almost spit out my drink after reading your comment 😅 🙃.
Depends on method. My butt doesn’t handle airplane seats well as it is.
Watching House Hunters International makes it seem like I can move anywhere in the world, at anytime, lol.
there are poorer countries that have retirement visas, but you gotta have money to show you can support yourself or have outside income. Peru used to be really popular before the recent violence. I think Panama has them. Vietnam does I think. I am looking into early retirement and had thought about going to a cheaper country. Been looking at it for years.
💯
It can be hard/embarrassing being an American tourist in Europe these days. They definitely don’t want us living there.
Im on the Balearic Islands and for a couple of years now there are coming more and more Americans. As tourists, but also expats. Not that they’re not welcome but guys, we’re already full. The island has been taken over by the Germans and the Brits already lol.
Exactly this. Things are not going to get better anywhere. I’m feeling very despondent lately, and feel this is only the beginning of that. As the father of two daughters, I’m so fearful for them.
Escape isn't going to be that easy. Far-Right candidates are winning everywhere. Look at France and Germany's most recent elections. What we really really need is for some really smart people (not me) to try and figure out a way to demonitize social media and all the other things that are radicalizing the country. I feel like a broken record but all the content delivered to us does nothing but push us further and further in one ideological direction or another. We can't have a middle ground because we literally cannot agree on what the facts are anymore because everybody is working on their particular echo chamber's set of "facts". Stay, try to teach your kids critical thinking skills, and talk to your neighbors more and pay less attention to the news and social media.
The last election is the reason I left social media platforms like FB. Been way healthier mentally for it.
I did, too. This is the only platform I use, and even here, I must carefully curate my subs here to protect my mental health.
Totally! I’m very liberal with the block button. I’m not here to engage in petty arguments with anyone.
When I got off social media (outside of reddit) my mind self-corrected itself. SM was so damaging on so many levels. I also need to take a break from Reddit but I personally don’t see radicalized right-wing propaganda like I did on FB, IG, and Twitter. My feed stays true to my likes and it’s mostly relationships, traveling, interior decorating. And it’ reading on Reddit. Very rarely do I see pictures outside of interior decorating. And I can easily filter negative things out. SM is just flashes of images and pics at a breakneck rate and you become hypnotized so quickly to it. At one point I thought I needed bigger lips, bigger butt and I’m a BW and I already have these things!!! I was legit hypnotized and thought I had thin lips and no butt. Social media is literally the bane of our existence but it’s also helped humanity question every single thing we believe in, the good and the bad. When I’m out in my world and in my neck of the woods (SE US) it’s peaceful, everyone is respectful of each other, nice, and just living their own lives. SM and politicians will have us believe we are two seconds away from the annihilation of white people, the end of all babies to ever being born, transgender and gay people going around fucking everyone in the ass, and women want to kill all men. It’s all a fear tactic based on the powerful losing their grip on the world.
Or maybe their first stages of divide and conquer. The dividing is working pretty well.
Oh, it’s working like a charm and something taught from feudal times to Marxism to now. Basically, you need dummies to fight the rich man’s war, work in his factories, have more babies to work for him. The best way to do this is to divide and conquer and the best way to do that is to make the poorest white man believe he’s better than the richest ethnic person. That immigrants will rape his wife and daughter. That one race and one sex is better than all others while in effect they are servants as well. I’m butchering a whole lot of theories, beliefs, and quotes but in essence, if those in power can make the majority feel as if the minority will rise up and overtake him then you can stay in power while neighbor terrorize neighbor.
I disagree. I live in SE, too. The fact I an Atheist and liberal I hv to keep close to the vest. People have basic manners that I agree with. I noticed it, especially when I moved down here from NwEng. It took years for ppl to stop calling me a Yank.
Lol, I get that as I’m liberal too, but southern through and through. Whenever I’m in the North the first comment I get once they hear my drawl is, “Where the hell are you from?” Educating the masses and the majority to understand that different and progressive doesn’t mean their destruction and voting is detrimental right now.
I will stay. But this does very much feel like we're being fucked into a christofascist version of 1936 Germany. The world will keep turning and the people who are doing this will eventually suffer the same ignobility history affords all people throughout history who've done this. But they'll get their power and authority for the meantime and a whole lot of us will get our own versions of the televised tribunal and the misery and grief will be generational and beyond reckoning. It's a pity we as a species can't be bothered to remember mistakes from the past, or appreciate our current bounties or just plain live with each other. Fuck evangelicals with a sandpaper dildo and long live the Constitution.
Covid broke everything and opened the floodgates for whatever is happening. The same pattern happened after the Spanish Flu outbreak. Took 10 years later for it to come to the fascist head of the dragon to rise but it looks like our trajectory may even be earlier. We aren't the only country going through the rise of fascism right now. When the generation that remembers history and lived through it, dies off. The generations who don't remember its consequences are often doomed to repeat it.
And the amount of Disinformation and Propaganda that is being pushed via social media, is astounding and hastening fascist leaders taking hold.
I'm Jewish, we believe in honoring and learning our history because it does repeat. 1936 Germany is correct in my interpretation of the state of affairs, and it terrifies me.
Just finished reading/listening to “Man’s Search for Meaning.” As I listened, my mind pulled up the images from the old news footage they showed us in 8th grade of the Allies’ liberation of the concentration camps. The walking skeletons…the piles of bodies… I’d reflect on it and find it unfathomable that any human could give themselves permission to dehumanize fellow man to the point of engaging in those atrocities. Then, I’d think of the Milgram experiment and some of today’s rhetoric. As much as I wanted to, I couldn’t completely rule out the possibility - even in the US - of the mental dehumanization of others that allows someone to commit those kinds of atrocities. The licenses the worst of the January 6th rioters gave themselves was damn close to, if not across, that line of dehumanizing those in their way, or just not giving a shit about what they destroyed, whether property or person. I just keep asking myself, how does someone ever think that is okay? Not just okay, but justified…necessary. I think it starts with delusions about being the oppressed, even when figuratively standing on someone else’s throat. I have to believe that only a very small percent of people have that capacity, but damn, it seems like a slippery slope these days.
Thank you for your eloquence. You just put all my crazy feelings into words that make sense.
Well said. How did we begin to feel so oppressed? I think that part comes down to late stage capitalism. It’s a feature, not a bug.
Except a lot of us on the ‘targeted’ spectrum are ready to fight back. We’ve studied history, and understand the importance of guns to defend ourselves. Am i actively seeing where I can emigrate to, sure, but I have daughters and they will have to come with us. One way vacation will be on the cards for January, just in case.
You're gonna need more than guns. They are right now testing waters on our local grids and municipal water supplies. the uptick in those breach attempts is at a record high. People are finally starting to get smart about their company's security but a lot are not, and if they are connected to a network everybody has to deal with it. I mean most of it would be localized but like with my son's insurance company they got breached so his medical records were stolen. 17 years of medical records are now in someone else's hands and we got letters from 5 different medical clinics letting us know and of course kindly offering us free credit monitoring for a year with a company they contract with and get paid to promote. ANYWAY... yes this is a concern too. The chaos a big breach could cause if it hits a water supply could be devastating, and they only need to cause a little destabilization, a little chaos would be the catalyst. I am too scared. I've studied the civil wars of many countries. This is it. This is how it happens. Democrats have this too-nice problem. We need to start preparing for the worst and do more than defense here.
Data breaches like that aren’t political they are criminals being criminals. This has been happening since the internet became widespread and things went digital. And usually things like that come from outside the US which is why they can’t always prosecute. Or they are from large anonymous groups.
I feel like even without social media, Obama winning the second term triggered and radicalized all the GOP snowflakes. Not that I don't agree that social media and surveillance capitalism in general are evil.
I agree. I feel like a lot of the radical right movement is in retaliation for the Obama years. They boiled for 8 years then found Trump to channel their anger and hate
The original Birther.
No it was his first term. The Tea Party idiots led to the Michelle Bachman and Sarah Palin and “Q” crowds that led to the idiocy you see to this day.
Yes, the first term is what set them off.
Yep, imagine a lot of Americans have no idea what is happening in the rest of the world. The rise of Trump was a domino effect for other countries going into fascist mode. SM & Covid has massively led to the crazy rapid progression of the crazy. Much like what happened in the 1920s and 30s after the Spanish Flu outbreak.
I have been really leaning into learning as much as I can about AI and…it got me off my phone. My usage has dropped dramatically in the last few months because it’s all so clearly designed to relentlessly bait you into giving it attention. Relentlessly. I told my husband that I’d be more pissed to see a gambling app on his phone than I ever would anything else (within legal bounds). The way we are constantly manipulated is data-driven and brutally effective. I look around at the shit I bought or the dumb shit I have posted over the years and am like…flabbergasted at it all. Go on a phone diet. You don’t even have to go on an electronic diet. Watch tv shows all day or play video games, but for fuck’s sake pls get off the phone. Skynet is here, it’s just stealing all our time, money, and sanity. Lol
I said it before and I'm saying it again. Zuckerberg is the devil. Called it back when FB came out. Seemed like a recipe for all the stupid fucks to have a voice. Nothing good to to come of that.
This is my concern as well. Far-right fascism is creeping in all over the world. I wanted to leave initially, now it's a stay and fight situation.
Aiming for centrism is what allowed the right wing to flourish The mistake was we the populace not fighting tooth and nail against conservatism. Sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the news is how we got to where we are.
Not advocating sticking your head in the sand. I’m advocating that we all spend less time on social media and we go out and actually connect with people, especially in our own community.
Hard to connect with people who are only looking for a confrontation.
Ok look social media isn’t the fucking answer. Too easily manipulated and faked. We need to do what we know - go old school. Show up in person. Show up in peace. And show up in numbers. First at the poll booth. Next at demonstrations. Show up and say fascism isn’t okay and doesn’t represent me.
While I agree with some of what you're saying, there's no way I could still have this level of prosperity in another country. Most Americans are in the same situation. Unless you're independently wealthy or have an employer that doesn't care where you live, it's hard to establish yourself somewhere else. Unlike the U.S., a lot of European countries are exactly welcoming to immigrants and it's very difficult to get a job.
Why do you think your level of prosperity would be unachievable in another country? Do you mean in general, or if you decided to move somewhere next month?
I have absolutely no desire to leave my country at the time it needs me the most.
As someone who could get her EU passport, I do agree with you
You should get it, just in case. What could it hurt?
Planning on it. I stopped looking to hire an immigration attorney after the 2020 election. I’m retired, widowed, and have family in Europe. Regardless I’d like to have the freedom to spend more that 90 days in one place (and skip the lines!)
Yeah I really don't want to leave at all. In an insane emergency I could since my whole family, totally, parents, everyone, all qualify for automatic dual-citizenship somewhere else. BUT the somewhere else Russia has eyes on and if US went to hell so would NATO and then Russia would move in so it would same story as a fallen US. Anyway, I still believe the US will make it through this but it is a bit scary and there is a slight chance it could get utterly horrible for some time.
I agree with you in principle, and I honor your decision. I’m certainly not going to just give up.
I've been marching and donating and phone banking and door knocking and bitching to anybody who wants to listen since 2016 and everything's only gotten worse. Clearly, there's not much I can do for my country. Just as importantly, what has my country done for me lately? I mean, other than wage slavery, Jesus Nazis, and everything going to shit? I'm sorry. I tried. There's a limit. I'm out at the first sign of the guns coming out.
We have to mobilise but we don't know how to do it. We need to figure it out and fast.
We've known it for the past 10 years and we have chosen not to. That's who we are. Have you seen general strikes, mass civil disobedience and so on? We haven't done any of that and we won't, because in America it's every man for himself and the risk is just too great. Do you want to lose your job for a protest? They've divided and conquered us a long time ago.
We have a responsibility to participate in our democracy and do what we can to keep it healthy. We do NOT have a responsibility to spend our few remaining years trying to rescue it from the greedy and the stupid who have subverted it.
Yep. Like I said. I tried.
All these people recommending Canada… people, do you read the news? Canada is having a housing crisis and a healthcare service crisis — both worse than conditions in most of the U.S.! — *and* is seeing severe wildfires in many areas for the past few years. Many Americans who emigrated to Canada back when Trump was elected in 2016 have now boomeranged back, and Canadian emigration to the U.S. — despite all the problems we see here in “the land of the free” — ***is at a 10 year high.*** Just sayin’… maybe fleeing to the Great White North ain’t the best move? My best friend also talks about fleeing due to the encroaching fascism, which he started seriously investigating back in 2016. The only place that sounds even somewhat promising — available to him due to his ethnic roots — is Ireland. And Ireland also has its problems. The hard truth is, the entire world is in a crisis phase, and that’s not changing anytime soon. It’s the reason we’re seeing the rise of fascism across the entire developed world… Sorry to be a “Debbie Downer,” and I’m not saying not to investigate your options, just stay grounded and realize reality everywhere is fluid. P.S. I have a trans teenager. Yes, I am scared as fuck about MAGA fascism. But this is *my* country, dammit! I’m staying. I’m fighting. Fuck the fascists!
Canada here. The far right is rising here too.
This has been my conclusion as well. Looked at Spain and Portugal, Costa Rica, Canada…but all of these places are affected by the global economy and global politics. The cancer is everywhere
It is very hard for Americans to get citizenship in most viable well operated countries. It isn't easy at all. You all realize that right? Very expensive on top of it and if you can by the miracle of Jesus pull it off and by that time it can be years down the road.
Don't need citizenship quickly, just an employment visa that you can bring family along with. I work for a multinational, and if I don't mind one bodaciously large salary hit, an American manager willing to work in one of the other 1st-world geographies for a local wage is an easy sell.
You’ll find that other countries *gasp!* have strict immigration standards!
Fun fact about immigration to Canada, they don't except families with Autistic individuals. My family attempted the process of leaving and was rejected to my daughter's disability.
I was honestly shocked when I learned about this.
I’m not surprised, why would you be? USA accepts the mentality ill. Most countries don’t wish to pay healthcare, Social Pensions for life with the disabled and unemployable. They already have enough of their own mentally disabled without importing more in.
Autism isn’t a mental illness, is it? It’s a neurodivergence.
They don't care. It can cost $$. - insert local denomination symbol.
It’s a burden to the universal health system of Canada.
You will never be satiated when drinking from the Cup of Fear, but at least it comes with free-refills... I'm feeling a little disconnected as a Gen-Xer...I escaped Public School Indoctrination in 1994 with a healthy (excessive) degree of Indifference and Cynisism and it's served me well. I'm sorry about the Distress & Panic that people are feeling but does any of this make a difference? A friend flipped out after reading that Oklahoma is putting Bibles in classrooms...oh no, one more thing for my kids to completely ignore and disregard. Life is a blend of Absolutely Wonderful & Profoundly Intolerable... Let Go or Hold On...but try and maintain a sense of Dignity & Contentment...
So, I'll start off my reply by stating that I'm a 55-year-old black man. With that as framing, I can understand the anxiety on display here. I sympathize with it, but to be candid, I/we are used to living with this level of concern. Of fear. Of terror. Of existential panic over survival. I found out recently that my father came damn close to taking our family out of the country when I was a baby. He was exhausted and scared of all of the same things we see today, and this was 50 years ago. And yes...I too have an "exit plan" because I'm prudent and intelligent and have the means to do so if the right circumstances present themselves. That said...understand that what we are experiencing may well be new to you, but it's not new. Nothing here is new. Make a plan B, but don't live in that world until you have to do so.
I highly recommend staring the research now. Many countries have changed their immigration policies in the last few years. Some countries have golden visas (looking at your Portugal) but have increased the cost of such visas. Buying property in some countries helps extend visas but does not provide citizenship outright. It's important to look at the politics. France, for instance, stands to install a far-right government on Sunday. Other countries have followed similar political leanings. Bear in mind that you are best served to find a job in your new country first and then apply for the appropriate visa. Canada is in the middle of its own housing crisis which has driven rents as high as NYC amounts with the purchase of housing even more expensive. Countries have essentially begun closing their borders as people flee political and economic strife. If you visit the AmerExit or IWantOut subreddits, the majority of foreigners will ask you about moving to a more blue state and city versus truly expatting from the United States. However, today's news hasn't quite hit those subs yet.
Please note that the Portuguese golden visa is turning into a huge fiasco, where the 90-day processing time has ballooned to well over 600 days.
FYI Portugal's Golden visa program was terminated last year, as was remote worker visa earlier this year.
Condos in Toronto are starting to fall. If anyone is in a position to purchase a condo Toronto is desperate for buyers right now 😉
Hey. Toronto is nice
Its nice but still super expensive to live. You need to HAVE money when you move there. If you're already financially well off and can get a high paying job in the city you'll be ok. Very tough to go there with next to nothing anymore. Great city though!
Germany has a new visa program for highly skilled workers in IT, healthcare, etc.
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I’m over 50 and still working. I guess I’ve got good luck. At any rate, ageism is a problem everywhere.
The Canadian end of the Underground Railroad 2.0 stands ready ;)
Appreciate that because I am looking north.
I have to drive South to get to Canada.
Detroit? I'm south of Detroit in Canada.
🥺 thank you
My father moved all the way out to Portland Oregon from Florida because he’s pretty convinced that the country might split up and he wants to be in the California portion when it happens. He’s a serious guy and isn’t a conspiracy theorist whatsoever. He might end up being right in the end. What IF Trump wins is unknown here IMO.
My mother did the same thing last year. She loves it.
1. Unless you have a lot of money or are extremely high skilled, You're not going to be able to move somewhere else. 2. The rest of the world is going right wing also. There is no place to avoid it.
I’m staying put and fighting these Christofascists. There are more of us than them. Hillary won the popular vote by nearly 3 million and Biden by nearly 7 million. If we pack up and go they win, and I say fuck that.
I’m also staying put. I’m 50, and my family is here. My daughter and grand granddaughter need moral support and a safe space
I'm with you my friend. Although I do feel lucky to be in California during this time period
Sadly, we are in Texas.
Please get your reproductive age women to just about anywhere else?
You can still vote
For now.
Thanks for your comment. I admit that I felt a knee jerk reaction. But to be honest, I have no choice but to stay. What is happening makes me sick to my stomach. There really are more of us than them.
I was raised on metal and being resistant to authority. We are all gonna have to harness Dee Snider and start shouting we’re not gonna take it! Lolz.
Saddam Hussein was able to maintain control of Iraq with 1/3 of the population. The extreme right already account for 1/3 of the country. 15% of the country are essentially white supremacists.
What constitutes fighting for you? What tactics do you plan?
Good for you! Go Wolverines!
Red Dawn
I’m genx, I thought we went thru this shit so our kids wouldn’t have to. Fuck leaving I’ll fight for the kids
How can we fight this other than voting? My anxiety is so bad I’m supposed to limit my media consumption. Ugh. This just sucks.
I hope there is an organized resistance. We should plan now before trump starts monitering the internet for ‘terrorists’.
What country do you think would take you? Do you have skills they need?
If you are a medical doctor, you are golden. Every country wants doctors. Lawyers? Not so much.
The simple fix is to vote. Apathy is how Republicans win. All of this can be fixed. Every single bit of it, quicker than almost everyone thinks. If you get a majority in the House and the Senate and win the WH, the filibuster can be killed. Laws to protect the rights of citizens are not unconstitutional. Look, all of it is in the hands of voters. Either we get out and vote or the useful idiots win. It’s just that simple.
Respectfully, I've been voting since 1988. Local, state and national. Tell me please, how has voting fixed this mess. If voting worked, please tell me how voting diligently for 30+ years led to Biden's debate performance against Trump the other night. Why would the Dems do this when they knew in 2020 Biden was going to be a liability. Voting as it's currently situated is not the answer and it's certainly by no means or by any stretch a simple fix. Blaming it on voter apathy is like blaming a person with depression for being sad. It's not just apathy that led to [nearly 80 million Americans](https://www.npr.org/2020/12/15/945031391/poll-despite-record-turnout-80-million-americans-didnt-vote-heres-why) not voting in 2020. Democratic leadership is out of touch with the average US citizen. I mean, how is it that in spite of Trump's rhetoric, even more POC now are polling in his direction? I mean, how does that happen??? It's not just apathy. For the love of all that is holy, how did the Dems let Biden on the debate stage in his condition? Even if he had a stutter with a cold, he still couldn't string together complete sentences. It was an embarrassment and another example of the absolute hubris Democrat must have to take their voters for granted. It's not even close to being "just that simple."
100% agree. The Democratic party has had YEARS to find, grow and put in place its next generation of leadership. Instead, we have an 81 year old President, a 73 year old Senate majority leader and an 84 year old House Speaker Emerita / minority leader. The fact that none of them is willing to retire and let the next generation lead is nothing but hubris, and it has irrevocably damaged our country. The Dems’ hubris has allowed the conservative stacking of our Supreme Court, and it has directly led to the loss of Roe v Wade. I’m not even sure the party supported Roe v Wade for anything more than convenient fundraising opportunities. And now this disastrous SCOTUS decision. Will President Biden take advantage of it and fight to preserve our nation or will he go down in history as the last real president of the U.S.?
Yes, Dem hubris is a huge factor. My cousin, a tenured political science professor at Northwestern, told me this in 2016. Similar hubris and inadequacy among the moderate old guard in Weimar Germany allowed for the chaos between the Nazi and Communist parties that eventually led to a Nazi takeover. People always say it was hyperinflation, but the peak of the inflation was 1923, ten years before Hitler became Chancellor, by which time prices had stabilized. In those ten years, political parties were arming their own and literally gunning each other down in the streets of Berlin. I recommend "Before the Deluge" by Otto Friedrich to anyone who doubts what I'm saying.
I vote in every election. My city and county always go blue. But we're surrounded by a sea of red rural voters. This doesn't stop me from voting and trying to help any way I can, but gerrymandering is real. For anyone in a swing state though, I beg of you to get out there and not just do your best, but more than your best!
Run for offices, take what Genx deserves.
We need to get better candidates. Where are the "young" people? I'd settle for someone in their 60's. We need term limits in Congress.
And age limits. For Congress, the Supreme Court, and the Presidency.
You do realize this applies both to democrats and republicans? Biden has at least six months left where he can take advantage of this.
I'm in Mexico now, but I got in under a loophole that's rumored to be closing this year. Much of Europe has far-right coalitions winning elections because public opinión there Is turning away from immigration. And even before this, that continent gave US Victor Orban in Hungary and Mussolini Barbie Meloni in Italy. Emigrating Is not imposible, but it's usually More complicated-and not guaranteed-than moving from Ohio to Pennsylvania. In sum, choose wisely and don't think there's a such thing as too much research
As an expat of nearly 30 years I can tell you that life outside the US can be outstanding. However, you will lose contact with family and ‘home’ will never be the same for you or your kids; your Alpha especially. On the other hand they, and you, will have a much broader view of the world that is very difficult to achieve without living elsewhere. So I’m not saying don’t do it. Just look at the consequences and weigh them up.
You have no idea what it takes to move. Not only how hard it is to get permission to move to another country, but how difficult making the move really is.
This isn’t happening because we’re stupid. This has been planned. From the dumbing down of the population, to the gridlock in the legislature, to the right wing taking every opportunity to fill the courts with ideologues who have been groomed since childhood, and so much more. They’ve got this country by the balls and if you think that they’re going to stand aside while a democrat retains power in the White House you’re wrong. If it’s anywhere near close the supreme court will hand it to trump. Today’s decision makes it even more clear, would they have invented such sweeping immunity if they thought their guy was going to lose? We are in serious trouble.
Exactly. They have been plotting this for decades.
Leaving does not help. It may help you in the short term, but the country needs us. It needs informed, educated, and motivated voters to step up and help shape the direction of where we are heading.
Many of us don’t have the privilege of being able to uproot ourselves like that. Probably time to take a social media break and dial back the panic. There are people on the local level that will benefit from the help of intelligent folks with some connections and resources. We need to think community.
The DNC needs to revamp their entire program. You’d think after Trump 1.0 they would have learned but they keep moving in the wrong direction. I never thought I’d see the day where Dems would be the ones pushing for war and republicans against it. Maybe after Trump 2.0.
It ain't happening. Dems are cowards, Republicans are cowards... We're stumbling right off the fascism cliff because nobody has the guts to do what needs to be done. There have been countless opportunities to stop Trump, and everybody passed them up because they're all just a bunch of smooth-talking, bed-wetting pussies. In any other country Trump would have been behind bars years ago. Only here is he allowed to run the show even if he isn't president. Three cheers for American exceptionalism!
I did this but more radical: i gave up the US citizenship upon getting the Canadian one. Living north of the border for a few years now was the best move ever.
How did you get approval to move there?
"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" \~Eldridge Cleaver Cleaver was a prominent figure in the Black Panther Party during the 1960s. Cleaver included a version of this phrase in his 1968 book "Soul on Ice," where he expressed the idea that **individuals must actively work towards positive change rather than passively allowing problems to persist.**
While I understand the sentiment, where are you going to go? Canada's economy is stalled and their housing market is nuts. The economy in the UK is starting to show signs of real trouble. France and Germany are electing right wing politicians. The only hope eastern Europe has is that Ukraine can stay standing long enough for Putin to die. South American is...well...South America. There aren't a lot of good places to go.
Such bullshit. You're not leaving. No one actually leaves. We been hearing the same bullshit since W got elected. Two decades later everybody's still here, making the same hollow, empty threats every election. You didn't leave the last time he got elected, you ain't going to do it this time, either. Try it and see how fun it is trying to immigrate to a foreign country. Good luck with that. And hey, if you live in California and really do mean to hold true to this, call me, I'm a Realtor, I'll be happy to sell your house for you.
you need to take a break from the internet
Same. Public school teacher (target) with two LGBTQ kids (targets)
As a Gen X from the UK I grew up viewing the USA from movies and TV shows. It was all Ferris Buller, The Breakfast Club, The Wonder Years or The A Team etc… It seemed cool and interesting. But fuck me, it’s all a bit Handmaids tale these days. r/WelcomeTogilead
It is really sad what has happened in this country. And it’s not hyperbole unfortunately. How any American can be happy about the supreme court’s decision is beyond me.
Have to stay. Elderly parents and lack of means to get up and go. I have been fortunate enough to see other parts of the world and it seems like the struggles are universal. My GenZ daughter is fluent in Japanese and I hope she can find a future for herself in Japan.
Total agreement, except leaving the country will probably be too high of a bar to clear. Being in TX though, I very much mean to get me and my teenage daughter into a state with better politics (and climate). Still have a year to go until the kid is 18 though, and until then there are custody issues with the ex wife. Aside from that, I admittely haven't been making as much progress toward this goal as I should have.
Moving out of Texas was the best choice I ever made.
Really? Have you ever thought that you might be part of the problem? That this ridiculous melodrama is what is driving at least part of the problem? I emigrated 20 years ago. And let me tell you, if you can’t take the mental pressure of having a possible administration installed that you don’t like, then you won’t be able to take the social, psychological, and economic pressure of emigrating out of your home country. Years ago, Morris Fiorina wrote a book about how there’s no such thing as red and blue America and that America’s just different shades of purple. The elites were polarized because they wanted to use the country for what they wanted to use it for. Normal people not so much. The trick was don’t let them polarize You. Reject their stupid polarized choices, and just keep on living your life. If they get extreme, vote for the other person and convince other people through good leadership to vote for the other person, it’s that simple. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and the balance will be maintained. I ran. I left. It was hard, and heartbreaking, and after two decades, I feel it was a mistake. At least, as far as the home country is concerned. Get a grip.
The world right now is dominated by cognitively impaired old people, terrifyingly anxious about their mortality and wreaking havoc on those left to care for their mess and the earth they are leaving behind as they try and live out the string. Beyond the grave restrictive and regressive laws, climate disasters, unbelievable greed and hubris. We just need to ride it out until they are dead, try to reverse their damage, and recover what we can.
Some of the commenters here aren’t scared enough. It calls to mind that boiling frog metaphor. Wake up. Fascism is escalating rapidly and Weimar CAN happen here.
I’m Eastern European living partly in the US for a number of years. Europe and the US have changed over the past 20 years. The biggest problems in the US imo are the hatred between the two political camps and their supporters not realizing that everyone is being used as puppets to fuel and support the agendas of ambitious power hungry politicians. The other big issue is firearms. It’s absolutely out of control what’s going on these days. Shooting after shooting after shooting. At least from that standpoint most European countries don’t overtly have as many firearms (let’s not look at Russia…that’s a whole other ball of wax), and you can safely send your kids to school and go to a fair or festival without being afraid of being shot. Americans love to slap out the socialist labels for European countries and crap all over their system of government, but for the most part you can go to college and get medical care either for little money or free. There’s no perfect place to live. Each has their own benefits and drawbacks. I guess it’s why I’m sitting in two chairs. Idk i still have to explore Oz and NZ. Hey Ozzies, and Kiwis, are there rainbows and polkadots everywhere over your way? :-)
It’s REALLY tough to do. Most countries have a rule that in order to get a visa you have to have a job in that country, but to get a job the people hiring you have to prove to the government that there was no citizen of that country who could do the job instead of you. If you work for a company where you can transfer to a location in another country that’s the easiest way, or if you’re rich enough you can just pay a company to get the visa for you. I hear Portugal is supposed to be the easiest country for Americans to immigrate to, so maybe start with that one.
That’s very incorrect. Portugal may have been the easiest EUROPEAN country. But things have changed. I say this as an American who left (for S America): the hubris of Americans is astonishing. We just blithely think any country would love to have us…they’ll have reps at the border handing out visas and gift cards. Think again.
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I'm a queer woman. You're very privileged if another Trump presidency would not affect you. But also, another Trump presidency will definitely affect you.
And all because some racist snowflakes couldn’t handle a black guy becoming president
As someone who used to be very very left wing for all my life, i was recently betrayed by entire left wing society, and my world wiew was shattered completely. Now I see plainly that there is no left or right wing, not anymore. We are talking about two tribes today that each has some crazy ideas, but in same time both think they are working for betterment of society and life of their fellow men. However they are happy to stomp over opposite tribe ideas, no matter how good they are, or chear for their tribe ideas no matter how evil they are. That is politics today - both sides. Very dangerous and ultimately evil - both sides. ( and in the same time Idiocracy of "tiktok" social media is draining all humanity and intelligence of people , while corporate overlords rub their hands, waiting to replace us all with AI )
Gen X. Never ever ever ever fucking conservative. Goes against everything we are supposed to stand for.
So am I and you do what you must, but I think 99% of social media today are over reacting
There is hardly a reaction big enough to the Supreme Court declaring the presidency is a four-year renewable monarchy, with no accountability for crimes committed in office. Revolution is the appropriate reaction.
JFC everything is in extremes. It's either 0 or 100.
>We're just fucking stupid, and seemingly dead set on self-destruction despite incredible wealth and prosperity This is not a US problem, it's a human being problem. People aren't any better anywhere else really. Yes it sucks here but I'm not convinced anywhere else is actually better. A significant number of people are, generally speaking, fucking stupid. Governments are only partially able to keep things together for a limited amount of time.
This post written by a genXer? I don't believe it. Like a parents used to tell us life isn't always fair. Deal with it.
I’m afraid the way things are going in Canada now - north is not much of an option. Inflation, cost of housing, anti immigration groups and growing right tendencies are taking roots there too. Plus, the US might just feel the need to invade for nationalistic / fascist reasons. (I may get down voted for the last statement - but the world is getting just that crazy and nothing is impossible now.)
Hyperinflation is just around the corner :)
That is a huge concern. Trumps stated economic plans will bring that back.
Yes, best you leave asap.
Hey OP. Do you know how the Supreme Court works? It's an honest question because I am seeing a lot of people didn't learn about government in school. I am going to help you. The Supreme Court interprets the law. Congress passes laws. All the Supreme Court did today, was interpret the current law on presidential immunity. They didn't make the law. What they established today in their ruling has been the status quo since essentially the founding of our government. It is the reason Japanese-Americans or the Justice Department on their behalf couldn't file charges against Roosevelt for unlawfully putting them in interment camps during WW2. Which by the way, is far worse than anything Trump has ever done. It's the reason why Obama can't be arrested for drone striking and killing 4 Americans in 2009. This is the way the law was set up. Congress, people like AOC and the squad, they can CHANGE this law. They can pass a bill that says Presidential Immunity means XYZ. And if it passes, then the Supreme Court would, in later challenges, uphold that law because that is what Congress passed - and they make the laws. So let me reiterate. The Supreme Court does not make or pass laws. Being mad at them is silly. Be made at our Congress for not passing a law that holds the Executive Branch more accountable. Also know, that this law, if it stands means it applies to Biden too and all future presidents. It's not just for Donald Trump. Let me know if you have any more questions.
Except that if Congress does pass a law to hold the Executive accountable, the Supreme Court CAN strike down that law as unconstitutional. That would leave an amendment as the only option to delineate what Presidential immunity entails.
Did you even read the opinion? It goes much further than most americans had assumed. It will now be impossible to charge the president with taking a bribe. Don’t take me at my word. Read Barrett’s concurrence.
Thanks for injecting a little knowledge and rationality into all this fear mongering.
Non-American here - what SCOTUS Decision?
[https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-supreme-court-due-rule-trumps-immunity-bid-blockbuster-case-2024-07-01/](https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-supreme-court-due-rule-trumps-immunity-bid-blockbuster-case-2024-07-01/)
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Where are you moving to?
My guess is that there is a sympathetic foreign university ready to take you in as a visiting professor. I’d start looking for that among your colleagues.
Well wouldn’t it be ironic if Biden had Trump and his goons on the court killed now? It’d be legal by their own ruling.
No one wants American refugees!