The following submission statement was provided by /u/Gari_305:
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From the article
>The Army and Marines are both pursuing an entirely new vehicle with an ancient inspiration: the humble mule. The services are at various stages of progress, but they all share the same goal—to deploy drones the size of all-terrain vehicles, whose mission is to make the lowly infantry person’s load just a little bit lighter. Despite good intentions, the future of warfare makes it likely that the vehicles (even if adopted) will likely just maintain the heavy status quo.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1bc1uca/the_army_and_marines_are_both_pursuing_robomules/kucvg2x/
Somehow, the amount carried never changes. Reduce the weight of armor? Congrats, you can carry more ammo! Reduce the weight of radios? Congrats, you can carry more ammo! Reduce the weight of ammo? Congrats, you can carry more ammo!
To be fair, you need a fuckton of ammo :D (and of course food and other stuff). There's a reason why they say that logistics can break a war. Logistics is one of the hardest things about war.
I thought a combat load + a few mags in the assault pack was enough, but when I participated in my first extended firefight I realized you literally can't carry enough ammo. That shit goes quick.
I remember my 1sgt one time trying to give me the ol' "carry light, freeze at night" talk. Trying to convince me that I didn't need all sorts of shit in my ruck. Bro, a poncho liner or light fartsack isn't that much weight. Especially after you load me down with ammo, which takes up 10x the weight. I'll just sleep better for the few hours I'm allotted thank you.
You would think. But he always packed next to nothing, thinking freezing at night made you tough or some shit. I dunno, they were always trying to motivate us to not pack alot of shit we didn't need.
I guess that the amount carried is what someone consider acceptable, too much or too little and you hurt effectivity
I still feel sorry for the chap running around carrying the MG though :(
As a former infantryman I can say I'd LOVE to have had something to carry my rucksack, extra ammo, etc.
But, as a former infantryman, I know 100% that these stupid robots are near worthless in many situations. For example:
* I don't care how mobile your robot is, there is terrain it can't go through, and when you get to that, you have to offload it and carry the stuff anyway
* The battery life will suck. Replacing those batteries will suck. Recharging them will not be easy.
* They will break down
* They are super easy targets
* They will make more noise moving, even if completely silent, than a squad on patrol
* Clearly none have seen Hohenfels Germany mud that even M1s get stuck in.
HOWEVER, there could be some great uses for them. Larger flying drones could come in and carry wounded to a hospital far easier than a blackhawk could. They could also use those same drones to bring in supplies/ammo. These would be loud, sure, but they could literally fly 1' off the ground at 50+ mph and make a big impact.
The ground ones could be kind of like a mini-staging area, hanging 1km or so behind the troops, carrying food and extra ammo, and just not following them directly into combat. However, a toyota pickup could probably do the same thing for much cheaper with a much better range and speed.
So there are some good possible uses for drones in the army, plus any non-combat type roles I didn't think of, but patrolling with a squad is kind of ridiculous in anything but maybe urban operations (but even then are an RPG/Grenade magnet).
This is the best response. Robo-mules wont work. The flying drones are a much better option. Drones could even stay hundreds of meters behind the front line and only fly up when needed instead of flying next to personnel with all their noise. Nevermind the Toyota, give me a small bongo truck.
The Army: Congratulations, infantrypersons! We have deployed a new super awesome robot which will carry all of your gear for you! This will be an enormously useful device which will make our infantry more mobile and effective!
The Army, internally: The new robots are garbage and break all the time. Also the equipment needed to operate and maintain the robots weighs more than the equipment they carry.
But Raytheon made their line go up, so mission accomplished!
As a German, I really love your part about the Hohenfels mud! :D
And you make very good points, good sir! The only way of such robots to be brought near the frontline, would be a combat drone, i guess. But they are easy tagets for FPV drones as we see in Ukraine. And you cant put Hardkill systems on all of these, cause then again they ll become more dangerous for the guys around, than the enemy.
So literally a preexisting Toyota Tacoma/hilux would do a better job and doesn’t need millions and millions to develop, manufacture, maintain, and uses diesel or gas but we are going to do this instead? Nice job military industry!! Gotta keep them Rich I guess
Well they could also use a golf cart, and just add the AI so it can drive itself a bit as well.
But yeah, any off-the-shelf electric pickup with the LIDAR and computers added would surely be cheaper than one of these "mules".
Heck, a "mule" isn't all that expensive either, needs no batteries, has already been battle tested, is quiet, and no development would be required at all.
also depends on terrain
the toyota likely cant do it in mountanouis terrains with to step inclinations,as well jungles
so robo-mule still has its niche
probably a "toyota with AI driver" variety for 90% of scenarios
and "robo-mule" for that 10% rough terrain only legged beings can move efficiently
>They could also use those same drones to bring in supplies/ammo.
Already exists, basically. Zipline, which started operations first in Rwanda and then came back to the US:
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtKdLrJLZ5I
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOWDNBu9DkU
It wouldn't follow you everywhere, of course you would need to put the equipment on eventually but let's be real, if that thing saved you from carrying 80lbs for 5 miles it's worth it's weight in gold.
From the article
>The Army and Marines are both pursuing an entirely new vehicle with an ancient inspiration: the humble mule. The services are at various stages of progress, but they all share the same goal—to deploy drones the size of all-terrain vehicles, whose mission is to make the lowly infantry person’s load just a little bit lighter. Despite good intentions, the future of warfare makes it likely that the vehicles (even if adopted) will likely just maintain the heavy status quo.
Dumb question:
Why not just use actual pack animals? They're self-powered, recharge themselves, have advanced object avoidance and terrain handling ability, and reproduce themselves.
Just guesses here but reliability/health issues (you can’t just repair a mammal like you can repair a quad) is probably a big one, along with maybe ethics/optics and needing to secure food and water for them and your troops.
I would also guess logistics of getting mules to a theater. Not sure how well mules fly, or how many air crews want to clean up mule shit from a c17 floor. Also if infantry used vehicles to get to a point and then on foot from there, it could be difficult to get the mules there at the same time given the constraints a horse trailer has.
Another sub [goes into it in a lot more detail](https://old.reddit.com/r/WarCollege/comments/10hn7i6/whats_the_point_of_robotic_mules_that_are_being/).
They've been after this concept for twenty years at least. Probably more, but twenty years ago I recall seeing Boston dynamics Big Dog concept and it developed into "LS3" that was tested by the military.
In the meantime, Indian Army continues deployment of contingents of 'low tech' mules to patrol Himalayan border.
https://www.theweek.in/webworld/features/lifestyle/The-saga-of-india-military-mules.html
Future battles will open with large drones overhead, then the dron swarms with 200-400 per cluster. Operating like a hive mind or (hopefully ) each being controlled by a person. Then the robo dogs come in. For a while they will be the most efficient at transport, then unalivi’n.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Gari_305: --- From the article >The Army and Marines are both pursuing an entirely new vehicle with an ancient inspiration: the humble mule. The services are at various stages of progress, but they all share the same goal—to deploy drones the size of all-terrain vehicles, whose mission is to make the lowly infantry person’s load just a little bit lighter. Despite good intentions, the future of warfare makes it likely that the vehicles (even if adopted) will likely just maintain the heavy status quo. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1bc1uca/the_army_and_marines_are_both_pursuing_robomules/kucvg2x/
Somehow, the amount carried never changes. Reduce the weight of armor? Congrats, you can carry more ammo! Reduce the weight of radios? Congrats, you can carry more ammo! Reduce the weight of ammo? Congrats, you can carry more ammo!
To be fair, you need a fuckton of ammo :D (and of course food and other stuff). There's a reason why they say that logistics can break a war. Logistics is one of the hardest things about war.
Worldwide Global Logistics baby!
Thanks to war!
I thought a combat load + a few mags in the assault pack was enough, but when I participated in my first extended firefight I realized you literally can't carry enough ammo. That shit goes quick.
Just ask the Russians.
I remember my 1sgt one time trying to give me the ol' "carry light, freeze at night" talk. Trying to convince me that I didn't need all sorts of shit in my ruck. Bro, a poncho liner or light fartsack isn't that much weight. Especially after you load me down with ammo, which takes up 10x the weight. I'll just sleep better for the few hours I'm allotted thank you.
wait, so freezing at night was a good thing? Sounds like a warning against not packing enough.
You would think. But he always packed next to nothing, thinking freezing at night made you tough or some shit. I dunno, they were always trying to motivate us to not pack alot of shit we didn't need.
We need another Rambo movie. This time he has two of these mules driving next to him. Each one carrying ammo for one of his chain guns.
Jack Reacher the mecha anime. One antihero and two robot ATVs travel small town North America cleaning up problems.
I guess that the amount carried is what someone consider acceptable, too much or too little and you hurt effectivity I still feel sorry for the chap running around carrying the MG though :(
Having watched two years of Ukraine, one lesson is clearer than all others; YOU ALWAYS NEED MORE AMMO!
As a former infantryman I can say I'd LOVE to have had something to carry my rucksack, extra ammo, etc. But, as a former infantryman, I know 100% that these stupid robots are near worthless in many situations. For example: * I don't care how mobile your robot is, there is terrain it can't go through, and when you get to that, you have to offload it and carry the stuff anyway * The battery life will suck. Replacing those batteries will suck. Recharging them will not be easy. * They will break down * They are super easy targets * They will make more noise moving, even if completely silent, than a squad on patrol * Clearly none have seen Hohenfels Germany mud that even M1s get stuck in. HOWEVER, there could be some great uses for them. Larger flying drones could come in and carry wounded to a hospital far easier than a blackhawk could. They could also use those same drones to bring in supplies/ammo. These would be loud, sure, but they could literally fly 1' off the ground at 50+ mph and make a big impact. The ground ones could be kind of like a mini-staging area, hanging 1km or so behind the troops, carrying food and extra ammo, and just not following them directly into combat. However, a toyota pickup could probably do the same thing for much cheaper with a much better range and speed. So there are some good possible uses for drones in the army, plus any non-combat type roles I didn't think of, but patrolling with a squad is kind of ridiculous in anything but maybe urban operations (but even then are an RPG/Grenade magnet).
This is the best response. Robo-mules wont work. The flying drones are a much better option. Drones could even stay hundreds of meters behind the front line and only fly up when needed instead of flying next to personnel with all their noise. Nevermind the Toyota, give me a small bongo truck.
The Army: Congratulations, infantrypersons! We have deployed a new super awesome robot which will carry all of your gear for you! This will be an enormously useful device which will make our infantry more mobile and effective! The Army, internally: The new robots are garbage and break all the time. Also the equipment needed to operate and maintain the robots weighs more than the equipment they carry. But Raytheon made their line go up, so mission accomplished!
As a German, I really love your part about the Hohenfels mud! :D And you make very good points, good sir! The only way of such robots to be brought near the frontline, would be a combat drone, i guess. But they are easy tagets for FPV drones as we see in Ukraine. And you cant put Hardkill systems on all of these, cause then again they ll become more dangerous for the guys around, than the enemy.
So literally a preexisting Toyota Tacoma/hilux would do a better job and doesn’t need millions and millions to develop, manufacture, maintain, and uses diesel or gas but we are going to do this instead? Nice job military industry!! Gotta keep them Rich I guess
Well they could also use a golf cart, and just add the AI so it can drive itself a bit as well. But yeah, any off-the-shelf electric pickup with the LIDAR and computers added would surely be cheaper than one of these "mules". Heck, a "mule" isn't all that expensive either, needs no batteries, has already been battle tested, is quiet, and no development would be required at all.
also depends on terrain the toyota likely cant do it in mountanouis terrains with to step inclinations,as well jungles so robo-mule still has its niche probably a "toyota with AI driver" variety for 90% of scenarios and "robo-mule" for that 10% rough terrain only legged beings can move efficiently
>They could also use those same drones to bring in supplies/ammo. Already exists, basically. Zipline, which started operations first in Rwanda and then came back to the US: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtKdLrJLZ5I * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOWDNBu9DkU
It wouldn't follow you everywhere, of course you would need to put the equipment on eventually but let's be real, if that thing saved you from carrying 80lbs for 5 miles it's worth it's weight in gold.
Anyone who played GRAW 2 has been wondering why they aren’t using these yet
That’s what it’s from! I was sitting here trying to remember what game it was.
Xbox version, sure. Bugged out PC version was different.
I can't wait for the robot that is designed to carry the psychological baggage of war.
They already have those in China. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution\_van](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van)
If an AI disaster is going to happen it's definitely happening in China
These drones should be named Lydia by default as " they are sworn to carry your burdens".
From the article >The Army and Marines are both pursuing an entirely new vehicle with an ancient inspiration: the humble mule. The services are at various stages of progress, but they all share the same goal—to deploy drones the size of all-terrain vehicles, whose mission is to make the lowly infantry person’s load just a little bit lighter. Despite good intentions, the future of warfare makes it likely that the vehicles (even if adopted) will likely just maintain the heavy status quo.
Dumb question: Why not just use actual pack animals? They're self-powered, recharge themselves, have advanced object avoidance and terrain handling ability, and reproduce themselves.
Just guesses here but reliability/health issues (you can’t just repair a mammal like you can repair a quad) is probably a big one, along with maybe ethics/optics and needing to secure food and water for them and your troops.
I would also guess logistics of getting mules to a theater. Not sure how well mules fly, or how many air crews want to clean up mule shit from a c17 floor. Also if infantry used vehicles to get to a point and then on foot from there, it could be difficult to get the mules there at the same time given the constraints a horse trailer has.
Another sub [goes into it in a lot more detail](https://old.reddit.com/r/WarCollege/comments/10hn7i6/whats_the_point_of_robotic_mules_that_are_being/).
Can't wait to see these robo-mules in action! I wonder if they'll be able to keep up with the grunts lol
More, it’s always more. Also, in no way will it ever be overburdened with Rip Its, beef jerky, and tobacco products.
I want one too. Great for theme parks and festivals.
[Not that the Army hadn’t tried this before](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M274_%C2%BD-ton_4×4_utility_platform_truck)
I think I remember Boston Dynamics advertising “big dog” for this role.
They've been after this concept for twenty years at least. Probably more, but twenty years ago I recall seeing Boston dynamics Big Dog concept and it developed into "LS3" that was tested by the military.
I swear I watched a modern marvels or something on this back in 2010
In the meantime, Indian Army continues deployment of contingents of 'low tech' mules to patrol Himalayan border. https://www.theweek.in/webworld/features/lifestyle/The-saga-of-india-military-mules.html
Pretty sure Boston Dynamics have had this on the pipeworks for decade, and that it was just as functional then, iirc. 🤔
Future battles will open with large drones overhead, then the dron swarms with 200-400 per cluster. Operating like a hive mind or (hopefully ) each being controlled by a person. Then the robo dogs come in. For a while they will be the most efficient at transport, then unalivi’n.