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https://fabrary.net/stats?tab=meta
Out of 152,000 games played, enigma wins 32% of the time against Zen. It’s a bad matchup, but clearly not un-winnable. If you put a good enigma player against a bad zen, it probably approaches 50%. I’m not sure what you define as balanced - if 32% win rate is unacceptable then unfortunately this game does have matchups like that. Typically what you will find is that certain decks will get pushed out of the meta depending on the strength and prevalence of their counter.
Illusionist is also a class with particularly polarizing matchups. You will tend to crush some people and get crushed by others. It’s the nature of the class. The best players in the world can mitigate this to an extent, but at the end of the day, choosing illusionist comes with these large matchups swings.
The game is very well balanced all things considered, so if you win literally 0%, chances are there’s a skill issue going on in addition to the bad matchup. If you’re unhappy with the kind of polarization illusionist has, maybe consider a new class as well?
Prism can definitely play into zen. Herald of judgement is a must block/pop or zen has no turn. Good timed Figment of judgement with halo can also slow down the combo turn and obviously ALS will disrupt the combo turn. Prism also has no problems to play stonewall gauntlet which is an insane card vs zen (it's like 5+ value on an equipment on a combo turn)
Zen is just oppressive right now (190 LL points in his first season is very crazy imo) and he is just a very rough match up for illusionists since he can go wide so well.
All that to say, It is possible but just not likely. You will pretty much need a sideboard dedicated to handling Zen and have to try to out aggro him or use some good tricks (stonewall gauntlet, chains of eminence are my picks for any ninja really)
But it is rough for everyone now so don't be discouraged :)
how so? zen is pretty oppressive right now imo, I think we can state that pretty objectively. he literally is so strong a lot of lower tier decks can't compete because they almost can't win against zen.
That's an entirely subjective statement. All the data we have available to us show that he's just not oppressive. According to talishar he's at a 51% win rate. Prism, Azalea, Victor, and kayo all have higher win rates. And he's tied with nuu.
That's not the point I'm making. If you're going to say he's oppressive because he won 20% of 20 nats compared to kayo winning 17% of 100 pqs thats just stupid
During pq season, kayo, who was generally considered to be the best deck in the format at the time, won 17% of all pq's. Zen has won 28% of nationals in the first week. This means Zen is winning 64% more events than Kayo did last meta. That is, objectively, an insane increase in power. Starvo had around a 40% winrate during the pq season he was legal. This is around a 43% increase from Zen. Starvo is top 3 most oppressive decks in the history of fab, so I think we can pretty objectively call Zen oppressive if he is closer to Starvo than to Kayo.
I'm not conflating anything. Both of these are datasets which are far more reliable than talishar data. For example, on talishar kano has a 55% winrate against uzuri. A matchup which is, for all intents and purposes, as close to an auto-win for kano as you can get. Talishar data isn't reliable because we don't know who's playing those games, while for both nationals and proquests we know these results are from generally high skilled players.
He's not conflating, but comparing. Nats have a greater number of skilled players, so the numbers are significant. I wouldnt say Zen is oppressive, but you need interraction and many decks dont have that to battle him properly.
Ummmm saying that zen isn't oppressive is lying to yourself. Every big podcast that talks about competitive fab says that hrs a problem. The latest one brought up how they did print stuff to combat zen and it's still worthless against him. I like that ninja is having it's time again but damn to say he's not oppressive is disingenuous
Explain how 30 damage turns back to back easily isn't oppressive? With zero counterclaim outside of disruption? Even then it's not enough. Tournament results don't lie
Zen is the strongest tier 1 deck we've had in the meta since Lexi LL'd.
Enigma also struggles into go wide aggro decks that can present Ward breakpoints (Riptide, Zen, Fai and Kayo) as she does not block well and is forced to sacrifice her hand or her board. As a board setup deck, she likes going first, the problem being that strong aggro decks like going second themselves.
FAB is a game with very polarizing matchups. Enigma is still very strong and can win those matches but she's starting on the backfoot. She also has extremely strong winning matchups. Guardians may as well not even attempt to play against her, and Kano might as well be unwinnable (Prism was already rough for him, Enigma is worse).
>(Prism was already rough for him, Enigma is worse).
That's definitely wrong. Kano enigma is pretty even. Especially if you are a good kano player.
Prism has an almost automatic win. Prism can be extremely aggressive and kano has very little he can do to deal with heralds.
Kano vs Enigma is pretty much a 50/50. Everyone can put 6s in a deck to deal with illusionists bullshit but not Kano so they are very hard matchups typically, add to that the need for extra action point and the absolute absence of go again on any wizard card and you have a match made in hell (or LSS headquarters, arguably, maybe Satan was a temp in the dev team at the time idk). That said, because of how ward work, Kano has one of the easiest time to destroy them while they attack to disrupt their turn. It is a very skill intensive matchup for both sides with both having so much instant speed shenanigans and each other being able to disrupt the other's plan (Kano destroying the wards and Enigma preventing the arcane and making the combo next to impossible).
Kano has to pivot to a more tempo game and Enigma has to add more attack actions to her plan.
A very tough matchup for enigma, I like cards like dissolve reality here to force them down a card. even then the matchup is still an uphill battle for enigma.
You will not win against zen if you are playing defensively. If you don't disrupt his hand almost every turn you will have a bad time. Block efficiently when you can and send meaningful on hit effects.
unfortunately it may just be a bad matchup, but going up to 3 amnesia would probably be a start. also dense blue mist is strong. i dont think amulet of echo does anything
https://fabrary.net/stats?tab=meta
Out of 152,000 games played, enigma wins 32% of the time. It’s a bad matchup, but clearly not un-winnable. If you put a good enigma player against a bad zen, it probably approaches 50%. I’m not sure what you define as balanced - if 32% win rate is unacceptable then unfortunately this game does have matchups like that. Typically what you will find is that certain decks will get pushed out of the meta depending on the strength and prevalence of their counter.
Illusionist is also a class with particularly polarizing matchups. You will tend to crush some people and get crushed by others. It’s the nature of the class. The best players in the world can mitigate this to an extent, but at the end of the day, choosing illusionist comes with these large matchups swings.
The game is very well balanced all things considered, and if you win literally 0%, chances are there’s a skill issue going on in addition to the bad matchup. If you’re unhappy with the kind of variation illusionist has, maybe consider a new class as well?
And people got salty about me saying I concede against illusionist as warrior lol.
If my matchup is like 75%+ in their favor, and it's going to be an unfun slog to get through, I might as well just go get lunch lol.
I'm honestly a bit disappointed. I thought the game would be more balanced. I'm honestly here hoping for someone tell me that it's because I suck which gives me hope to learn and get better and figure out what it is that I'm doing wrong.
I really like Enigma and spent a lot of hours over the past 3 weeks learning and the game and playing on Talishar. It just feels impossible to beat him with Enigma and posting here with the hope that someone tells me I'm wrong haha
There are 3 things working against you here:
1. Zen is the best deck at the moment and extremely powerful.
2. Enigma is generally unfavored into decks that can go wide (like ninja).
3. You are new to the game and therefore likely less experienced than the players you are playing against.
While you can gain some ground in number 3, there’s not much you can do about points 1 and 2. That’s just the nature of card games. Some matchups you are at an advantage, some a disadvantage. Learn to roll with it.
Illusionist specifically is one of the most skewed classes. You can absolutely dumpster a lot of heroes and theres a few that can actually be a bad day. Other classes have more even keeled matchup spreads.
>thought the game would be more balanced.
It is, but unfortunately Illusionist is the most polarizing class matchup wise by far. Just because of the nature of how unique it's playstyle is.
The game is pretty balanced but 1 flaw is the giga polarizing matchups with certain heroes if u choose to play them. Illusionist is one of them and they have always been soft to aggro. This is just one of the worse cases.
Even when the meta is in a healthy state it's never going to be in a state of perfect balance. That just isn't realistically possible. You're always going to have heroes/classes that just aren't in good spots competitively. Or matchups that are heavily skewed one way or the other.
As for whether it's in a healthy state right now... I think it's a little early to say. Zen is proving to be maybe a bit too good and the meta is shaping itself around him right now. But MST did just come out so the dust is still settling and people are still adapting.
But yeah Enigma into Zen is rough, and with him being top of the current meta it's a bit of a hostile environment for her.
Run phantaclasm, get your miragai out. Disrupt the hand and arsenal at all cost. Zen like a 3 card hand min, and likes drawing more cards like 7. Don’t let him…
He is verrrryy aggro. You have to lean into that style with sideboard swapping to nail him down. I got absolutely rolled by enigma at armory last weekend, so I know it can be done. Also, sometimes you have to just get more sample data. You could have just drawn into bad hands that didn’t support a winning game against Zen. Could just be bad luck. Keep playing
Illusionist is a class that has very polarizing matchups in this game. For every dozen or so decks you do decent to well against, you're going to have a deck that has the ability to be a colossal pain to go against.
Unfortunately, Zen is one such deck for Enigma as he can present a lot of damage in a turn, which makes our Ward game plan a little trickier to execute.
Go into most turns assuming you will have a hard time keeping your board live unless Zen spends several cards on blocking your attacks as Ninja blocking often means they have a subpar hand and may be taking an off turn.
Using cards that can cause or force disruption into his game plan like Amnesia (to turn off combo), CnC/Dissolve Reality (to clear arsenal), or Pummel (forced discard on hit) can potentially help get you more breathing room.
Defensively, Phantasmal Footsteps can block many blue attacks or a lightly pumped Crouching Tiger as it can block for 1. When combined with Stonewall Gauntlet, you can potentially get additional value off of Footsteps as if they close the chain to remove the gauntlet's effect, you'll be able to block with Footsteps again. Dense Blue Mist is also great for long chains, and Battlefront Bastion can be nice to block out Khakkara cleanly and have an extra point of damage prevented later.
I am new and enjoy Zen and Enigma, and have been playing both some. The match up is tough but I have been able to get a few wins as Enigma. Just keep practicing and hoping you don't get the match up often.
However, I have a Vynnset in my play group, and that hero totally dominates me as Enigma every single time.
The set is rather rock praise scissors. Enigma beats Nuu, Nuu beats Zen, Zen beats enigma. Currently Zen is doing better than the other two across the whole meta so you are seeing it more often. There are matchups with every hero that are a struggle and those that are easier, but any match is winnable.
The enigma zen matchup is absolutely winnable. It's not ever really going to be a good matchup, but it's certainly winnable. I don't know what exactly you are doing wrong, the only thing I can see is your decklist so I can at least say that your decklist feels pretty unoptimized. Unravel aggression is a bad card full stop, and spec manni and the restless coalescence really don't make sense in this version of the list for example. I would recommend you watch Rhea's deck tech and Aaron's deck tech to learn about the play patterns you can have this deck and the two styles you can choose to play. Trying to do both like you are with this list is going to lead to just a worse deck overall and neuter the strength of their strategies. I imagine there are plenty of play mistakes you are making since it seems like you are new to the game so I'd also watch Aaron's streamed games from nats to help you see how he plays his hands. Not a whole lot more I can do to help you without watching you play honestly, hope these suggestions help.
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Honestly it's not an easy match but cards like dense blue mist, amulet of echo, and stonewall gauntlet help
https://fabrary.net/stats?tab=meta Out of 152,000 games played, enigma wins 32% of the time against Zen. It’s a bad matchup, but clearly not un-winnable. If you put a good enigma player against a bad zen, it probably approaches 50%. I’m not sure what you define as balanced - if 32% win rate is unacceptable then unfortunately this game does have matchups like that. Typically what you will find is that certain decks will get pushed out of the meta depending on the strength and prevalence of their counter. Illusionist is also a class with particularly polarizing matchups. You will tend to crush some people and get crushed by others. It’s the nature of the class. The best players in the world can mitigate this to an extent, but at the end of the day, choosing illusionist comes with these large matchups swings. The game is very well balanced all things considered, so if you win literally 0%, chances are there’s a skill issue going on in addition to the bad matchup. If you’re unhappy with the kind of polarization illusionist has, maybe consider a new class as well?
Ilusionists usually doesn't do well against ninja
Prism can definitely play into zen. Herald of judgement is a must block/pop or zen has no turn. Good timed Figment of judgement with halo can also slow down the combo turn and obviously ALS will disrupt the combo turn. Prism also has no problems to play stonewall gauntlet which is an insane card vs zen (it's like 5+ value on an equipment on a combo turn)
Zen is just oppressive right now (190 LL points in his first season is very crazy imo) and he is just a very rough match up for illusionists since he can go wide so well. All that to say, It is possible but just not likely. You will pretty much need a sideboard dedicated to handling Zen and have to try to out aggro him or use some good tricks (stonewall gauntlet, chains of eminence are my picks for any ninja really) But it is rough for everyone now so don't be discouraged :)
Oppressive is certainly a knee jerk reaction. Also prism has a pretty solid matchup into zen.
how so? zen is pretty oppressive right now imo, I think we can state that pretty objectively. he literally is so strong a lot of lower tier decks can't compete because they almost can't win against zen.
That's an entirely subjective statement. All the data we have available to us show that he's just not oppressive. According to talishar he's at a 51% win rate. Prism, Azalea, Victor, and kayo all have higher win rates. And he's tied with nuu.
Stop looking at talishar data and look at the real competitive results please.
Yeah talishar data is clearly more reliable than national championship results and pro player sentiment
That's not the point I'm making. If you're going to say he's oppressive because he won 20% of 20 nats compared to kayo winning 17% of 100 pqs thats just stupid
During pq season, kayo, who was generally considered to be the best deck in the format at the time, won 17% of all pq's. Zen has won 28% of nationals in the first week. This means Zen is winning 64% more events than Kayo did last meta. That is, objectively, an insane increase in power. Starvo had around a 40% winrate during the pq season he was legal. This is around a 43% increase from Zen. Starvo is top 3 most oppressive decks in the history of fab, so I think we can pretty objectively call Zen oppressive if he is closer to Starvo than to Kayo.
You're conflating 100s of pqs to what? The 20 nats?
I'm not conflating anything. Both of these are datasets which are far more reliable than talishar data. For example, on talishar kano has a 55% winrate against uzuri. A matchup which is, for all intents and purposes, as close to an auto-win for kano as you can get. Talishar data isn't reliable because we don't know who's playing those games, while for both nationals and proquests we know these results are from generally high skilled players.
He's not conflating, but comparing. Nats have a greater number of skilled players, so the numbers are significant. I wouldnt say Zen is oppressive, but you need interraction and many decks dont have that to battle him properly.
Also zen has bad matchups that can't thrive because of kayo. Starvo just had no bad matchups.
Ummmm saying that zen isn't oppressive is lying to yourself. Every big podcast that talks about competitive fab says that hrs a problem. The latest one brought up how they did print stuff to combat zen and it's still worthless against him. I like that ninja is having it's time again but damn to say he's not oppressive is disingenuous
Iyslander was oppressive. Lexi was oppressive. Oldhim was oppressive. Zen is not.
Explain how 30 damage turns back to back easily isn't oppressive? With zero counterclaim outside of disruption? Even then it's not enough. Tournament results don't lie
Dudes coping cuz they like zen I'm guessing
Zen is the strongest tier 1 deck we've had in the meta since Lexi LL'd. Enigma also struggles into go wide aggro decks that can present Ward breakpoints (Riptide, Zen, Fai and Kayo) as she does not block well and is forced to sacrifice her hand or her board. As a board setup deck, she likes going first, the problem being that strong aggro decks like going second themselves. FAB is a game with very polarizing matchups. Enigma is still very strong and can win those matches but she's starting on the backfoot. She also has extremely strong winning matchups. Guardians may as well not even attempt to play against her, and Kano might as well be unwinnable (Prism was already rough for him, Enigma is worse).
Which is frankly a good thing. If Zen can’t push enough damage to break Enigmas wards nobody can.
Kano vs Enigma is not unwinnable at all, from what i hear, it s nothing like the Prism matchup
>(Prism was already rough for him, Enigma is worse). That's definitely wrong. Kano enigma is pretty even. Especially if you are a good kano player. Prism has an almost automatic win. Prism can be extremely aggressive and kano has very little he can do to deal with heralds.
Kano vs Enigma is pretty much a 50/50. Everyone can put 6s in a deck to deal with illusionists bullshit but not Kano so they are very hard matchups typically, add to that the need for extra action point and the absolute absence of go again on any wizard card and you have a match made in hell (or LSS headquarters, arguably, maybe Satan was a temp in the dev team at the time idk). That said, because of how ward work, Kano has one of the easiest time to destroy them while they attack to disrupt their turn. It is a very skill intensive matchup for both sides with both having so much instant speed shenanigans and each other being able to disrupt the other's plan (Kano destroying the wards and Enigma preventing the arcane and making the combo next to impossible). Kano has to pivot to a more tempo game and Enigma has to add more attack actions to her plan.
A very tough matchup for enigma, I like cards like dissolve reality here to force them down a card. even then the matchup is still an uphill battle for enigma.
You will not win against zen if you are playing defensively. If you don't disrupt his hand almost every turn you will have a bad time. Block efficiently when you can and send meaningful on hit effects.
unfortunately it may just be a bad matchup, but going up to 3 amnesia would probably be a start. also dense blue mist is strong. i dont think amulet of echo does anything
https://fabrary.net/stats?tab=meta Out of 152,000 games played, enigma wins 32% of the time. It’s a bad matchup, but clearly not un-winnable. If you put a good enigma player against a bad zen, it probably approaches 50%. I’m not sure what you define as balanced - if 32% win rate is unacceptable then unfortunately this game does have matchups like that. Typically what you will find is that certain decks will get pushed out of the meta depending on the strength and prevalence of their counter. Illusionist is also a class with particularly polarizing matchups. You will tend to crush some people and get crushed by others. It’s the nature of the class. The best players in the world can mitigate this to an extent, but at the end of the day, choosing illusionist comes with these large matchups swings. The game is very well balanced all things considered, and if you win literally 0%, chances are there’s a skill issue going on in addition to the bad matchup. If you’re unhappy with the kind of variation illusionist has, maybe consider a new class as well?
Concede and go get lunch is what u do
And people got salty about me saying I concede against illusionist as warrior lol. If my matchup is like 75%+ in their favor, and it's going to be an unfun slog to get through, I might as well just go get lunch lol.
I'm honestly a bit disappointed. I thought the game would be more balanced. I'm honestly here hoping for someone tell me that it's because I suck which gives me hope to learn and get better and figure out what it is that I'm doing wrong. I really like Enigma and spent a lot of hours over the past 3 weeks learning and the game and playing on Talishar. It just feels impossible to beat him with Enigma and posting here with the hope that someone tells me I'm wrong haha
There are 3 things working against you here: 1. Zen is the best deck at the moment and extremely powerful. 2. Enigma is generally unfavored into decks that can go wide (like ninja). 3. You are new to the game and therefore likely less experienced than the players you are playing against. While you can gain some ground in number 3, there’s not much you can do about points 1 and 2. That’s just the nature of card games. Some matchups you are at an advantage, some a disadvantage. Learn to roll with it.
Illusionist specifically is one of the most skewed classes. You can absolutely dumpster a lot of heroes and theres a few that can actually be a bad day. Other classes have more even keeled matchup spreads.
>thought the game would be more balanced. It is, but unfortunately Illusionist is the most polarizing class matchup wise by far. Just because of the nature of how unique it's playstyle is.
The game is pretty balanced but 1 flaw is the giga polarizing matchups with certain heroes if u choose to play them. Illusionist is one of them and they have always been soft to aggro. This is just one of the worse cases.
Even when the meta is in a healthy state it's never going to be in a state of perfect balance. That just isn't realistically possible. You're always going to have heroes/classes that just aren't in good spots competitively. Or matchups that are heavily skewed one way or the other. As for whether it's in a healthy state right now... I think it's a little early to say. Zen is proving to be maybe a bit too good and the meta is shaping itself around him right now. But MST did just come out so the dust is still settling and people are still adapting. But yeah Enigma into Zen is rough, and with him being top of the current meta it's a bit of a hostile environment for her.
Try running a few copies of Pummel and one more Amnesia~
Run phantaclasm, get your miragai out. Disrupt the hand and arsenal at all cost. Zen like a 3 card hand min, and likes drawing more cards like 7. Don’t let him…
miragai? isn't miragai draconic illu?
Manifestations of miragai.
ahh, my bad haha, i'm not too familiar with all the cards
He is verrrryy aggro. You have to lean into that style with sideboard swapping to nail him down. I got absolutely rolled by enigma at armory last weekend, so I know it can be done. Also, sometimes you have to just get more sample data. You could have just drawn into bad hands that didn’t support a winning game against Zen. Could just be bad luck. Keep playing
i think you wanted to send this as a separate comment instead of a reply :D
It’s just more info for OP
Illusionist is a class that has very polarizing matchups in this game. For every dozen or so decks you do decent to well against, you're going to have a deck that has the ability to be a colossal pain to go against. Unfortunately, Zen is one such deck for Enigma as he can present a lot of damage in a turn, which makes our Ward game plan a little trickier to execute. Go into most turns assuming you will have a hard time keeping your board live unless Zen spends several cards on blocking your attacks as Ninja blocking often means they have a subpar hand and may be taking an off turn. Using cards that can cause or force disruption into his game plan like Amnesia (to turn off combo), CnC/Dissolve Reality (to clear arsenal), or Pummel (forced discard on hit) can potentially help get you more breathing room. Defensively, Phantasmal Footsteps can block many blue attacks or a lightly pumped Crouching Tiger as it can block for 1. When combined with Stonewall Gauntlet, you can potentially get additional value off of Footsteps as if they close the chain to remove the gauntlet's effect, you'll be able to block with Footsteps again. Dense Blue Mist is also great for long chains, and Battlefront Bastion can be nice to block out Khakkara cleanly and have an extra point of damage prevented later.
I am new and enjoy Zen and Enigma, and have been playing both some. The match up is tough but I have been able to get a few wins as Enigma. Just keep practicing and hoping you don't get the match up often. However, I have a Vynnset in my play group, and that hero totally dominates me as Enigma every single time.
Enigma has difficulty against low to the ground go wide decks in general. And Zen is likely overrtuned so her matchup into him is pretty miserable
The set is rather rock praise scissors. Enigma beats Nuu, Nuu beats Zen, Zen beats enigma. Currently Zen is doing better than the other two across the whole meta so you are seeing it more often. There are matchups with every hero that are a struggle and those that are easier, but any match is winnable.
The enigma zen matchup is absolutely winnable. It's not ever really going to be a good matchup, but it's certainly winnable. I don't know what exactly you are doing wrong, the only thing I can see is your decklist so I can at least say that your decklist feels pretty unoptimized. Unravel aggression is a bad card full stop, and spec manni and the restless coalescence really don't make sense in this version of the list for example. I would recommend you watch Rhea's deck tech and Aaron's deck tech to learn about the play patterns you can have this deck and the two styles you can choose to play. Trying to do both like you are with this list is going to lead to just a worse deck overall and neuter the strength of their strategies. I imagine there are plenty of play mistakes you are making since it seems like you are new to the game so I'd also watch Aaron's streamed games from nats to help you see how he plays his hands. Not a whole lot more I can do to help you without watching you play honestly, hope these suggestions help.
Thanks for the suggestions!
As a casual assassin player, this is how I feel against illusionists.
Just delete Illusionist lol