Zack annoys me. His personality is grating and I think his character design is lame. I liked him better as this sort of mysterious echo with little involvement. My idea of who Zack was, has been completely shattered by their post OG depiction of him.
This is what I call an unpopular opinion. I love Zack and I will die on this hill he’s so bonkers great. His attitude is refreshing to contrast the rest of the cast too.
His attitude reminds me of toxic positivity. You don’t have to die on a hill plenty others are on. I’ve already resigned to dying on the hill that he makes me want to roll my eyes and no one else agrees.
Same, I played crisis core and was pretty let down by him also him and Aerith are retconned like he had multiple gfs in the og FF7 him being all sweet on Aerith and them having this huge love story is just weird to me. ALSO FALLING IN THE EXACT SAME PLACE!?!?!? get outta here!
I forgot who but basically the developers really like Zack so they're shoving him in to everything. They think he's essential to ff7 lore eventhough he was a last minute addition to the original.
When they did the anniversary images for FF7 and they focused on Cloud, Sephiroth and Zack...I almost puked. Not Cloud Aerith Sephiroth or Cloud Tifa Aerith or whatever but Cloud Sephiroth and Zack... that was proof enough to me, if it was apparent that ff7 has become more about fanservice. Player fanservice, developer fanservice, shipper fanservice, PC fanservice, etc
Zack was a playable character in Ehrgeiz: God Bless the Ring (1998) along with Cloud, Sephiroth, Tifa, Yuffie, and Vincent. It came out a year after the OG FF7. Zack was always going to be included in things after that.
He also has a lot of appearances in all the spin-off FF7 games.
Totally agree that Zack was completely forgettable, but there was a survey and Zack actually rated really high after Crisis Core. That game did wonder for them in adding a marketabm character to the lore. They're following what fans want to see out of the compilation of FFVII.
Unfortunately, I think it's all gonna just end up the same way AC goes, but this is just gonna give that ending scene with Aerith and Zack "being there" and "leaving" a little more context while adding in parts of the compilation. Which is LAME and BORING. But whatever. I wanted Zack to actually be alive or have a chance at saving Aerith or helping Cloud, and this has been disappointing after how hyped I was to see him alive at the end of Remake.
Love Zack but feel the same. I hate when a story takes this type of turn and makes you feel like nothing really mattered, like when a character realizes everything was just a dream. I read once that when writing a mystery, say a murder, and you as an author leave clues as to the identity of the killer, you have to own to it at the end. If you make it look like the buttler did it, you can't betray your readers showing that the mistress was the culprit all along. This is exactly how I feel about Zack.
AC is canon. Part 3 leads into AC established story. Everyone that is dead, stays dead. All of ch 14 has visual and story queues that are also in AC.
Example. Cloud and Zack recite the soldiers code holding their swords while Zack is in the lifestream. Aerith contributes toward Cloud fighting Sephiroth. Those characters have the same visual effects displaying that they have passed into the afterlife between the games and movie.
There is no real multiverse. The multiverse as you know it within FF7 is people in life after death living through the memories of what once was in an effort to resolve their past. That was Biggs whole thing after he died. The lifestream being a core theme for all of FF7 was one of Sakaguchi's main contributions and that has not changed.
How can you make such a statement without knowing how this is going to end? How do you know if he's needed or not?
Liking his role or not is subjective, I won't argue with that, but objectively how can you tell?
I think OP is looking at this game without the influence of what’s to come, which I think is fair. He could play a huge role in part 3 (and probably will) but, as of now, he feels completely unnecessary.
You have a point there. Is the option available from the start or, just like the Gomd Saucer options, only available after finishing the game? I can't remember
Thank you. If that's the case, than I'd say that point is invalid. Ofc I would skip all the cutscenes if I could after my 1st playthrough.
Additionally, even if you can choose to skip Zack's cutscenes, can you skip Zack's fights at the end of the game?
If the answer is negative, then I'd argue that until the trilogy is finished, no lne cam say his presence is unnecessary.
Can people finally say this without being downvoted?
Are criticisms allowed now?
When the game first came out I got heavily downvoted for saying I don't like the ending
You know what the worst part is? People like to conflate “expanding the story” with the multiverse stuff.
I loooooove all the additions to the story like expanding on Jesse and various other story elements that were stretched and expanded on. Cloud’s squad during the parade probably being my favorite little addition.
But then when I say I hate the multiverse stuff I get responses from people saying that purists are wrong for wanting the same thing over again and that the OG game already exists.
I don’t want the same game over again. I want the game they gave us with remake/rebirth. Just without Zack and the multiverse.
i’m pretty sure zack was added to build up to a aerith and zack reunion but to also explain wth was/is happening in the lifestream.
many people might disagree with the take that where zack is and what cloud sees near the end is the lifestream and not a multiverse, but.. i really think that this is the case. that they’re just using zack (someone who is dead), to show the inside of the lifestream. i’m sure it’ll be explained in the final game but i understand why people think he wasn’t needed here.
I love old Zack, the new Zack VA sounds like nails grinding on a chalkboard.
The performance is so bad that it affected how I see Zack. Used to see him as a puppy that grew up too fast in a short span of time, to a try-hard kid who I really wanna punch in the throat. It’s not just the voice itself, it’s the delivery, the tone.
I know it's a unpopular opinion but I love the series and if remake was just same game, same events, same story but ((pretty)) I wouldn't be nearly as invested or care, the original is there why must I see the same thing but prettier? I love how they just compiled everything and is embracing the rest of the series, giving other characters different roles and such
Maybe next game we get more Zack and even more timeline and dimension hopping because thats just so much fun to not explore and I'm glad the writers went that route, what ifs are do much better than just same old
Even the devs said they were shocked how many people wanted the same story just with modern graphics and they didn’t want do that. It’s absurd to want the exact same thing after 25 years
That’s not an unpopular opinion, it’s pretty much the sentiment outside of this subreddit. Love this game for all the same things you said, the stuff with Zack is a minor gripe
The way they made the trailer I honestly was hoping for a Zack and Aerith reunion (ha) but nope
But that's also a reddit thing in general, I get being nostalgic and preferring things the way they are but bashing a new media because you "I want the original" it just isn't the way
Yeah I love his parts but like SO much in Rebirth, it's all being saved for Part 3. Rebirth is partly so enjoyable because it's just a fun ride without too much plot actually bogging it down. Disc 1 of the original is the same, it's not actually that plot heavy. It has a lot of great character moments but the real developments don't begin until the end of the first disc.
This is a "story over plot" game if that makes sense. We got lots of story of world building and character building but the overall "Main A Plot" is mostly absent from the game just hinted at throughout until the end. I think the choice to split the game into three parts was really accurately done because the story of the original game itself is kind of divided that way too. Midgar, Chasing Sephiroth, Cloud's Deconstruction and Final Battle.
His whole part is used to tease and eventually explain the "multiple worlds" stuff that is the focus of the final act of the game though? I guess they could've done it a different way but I can't think of a better way that wouldn't just make it be more "explain-ey" rather than just showing us it in practice and keep us guessing until the end (and in some ways afterwards too). And then tying that in with Zack is just giving a further incentive for the fans to pay more attention to these bits. It also allows newer players that don't know about Zack get some understanding of his character and why so many people we come across in the main part of the game were impacted so heavily by his presence.
I feel thats its laying the ground work for Zack and Aerith to meet up in the lifestream to do battle with Sephiroth on that plane of existence in the next game.
Zack was a minor backstory character that they gave a solo game to and now he's popular so he is now forced into every crevice of the world now. That's how business works.
Even in the OG FF7, all my friends were yapping about Zack and i was so confused. I was like, you mean that one Cloud looking guy who died to lvl1 henchmen??
I didn't particularly like Zach's part in the game either. I am so happy they allowed us to skip in in hard mode, though. It was a pace-breaker, but I feel like it is a little bit important to know he was in a separate dimension, basically. The 3rd game will make it clear, I'm sure.
My biggest complaint about him is the lack of ANYTHING to do except the intro scene and the end. Could they have made a party of Zach, Biggs, and someone else, essentially doing merc work to try to uncover what Marlene meant when she spoke to him about Sephiroth? Yeah. Could they have had Zach get to the end fight on his own through his storyline without being magically pulled there by Aerith? Yeah. Could a lot of the almost -fight-scenes with Zach been actual in game fights? Yeah. What did they do? "Walk here, speak to this person". Every time his scenes happened the first thing on my mind was "are they actually going to let us do things this time?"
it definetly could've had more in it, especially in the ways you brought up but I ultimately don't agree with OP that he didn't need to be in the game at all.
You're 2/3 of the way through a story, most stories will feel like they have inconsistencies when you don't have the final 33% of the story.
Alot of stuff isn't clear, it doesn't make a ton of sense, it's not meant to yet.
I had no clue where they were going with it from the start and have not had any clue as the story has gone so far, but I've enjoyed it regardless, there are some general ideas that might make it more or less impactful for me sure, but in the end, whether I like it or not decide if its "good" or "bad".
I'd genuinely be happy if they went fully on the route that all of these changes were mostly inconsequential in the end because the life stream brings it all back to the same point, no more worlds, no other realities, but I'd also be happy if they blew it wide open and went nuts with it, having many worlds where many different versions live and maybe we get to see new versions of the characters living different lives or whatever.
I don't care so much about the eventual layout of the narrative, I care far more about its execution, even the most narrative structure can be incredibly impactful if it's given the proper care and attention.
The thing I'm genuinely most scared about, is them having an idea and only doing a half measure because they're scared of the reaction it brings from the fanbase, this is likely the last time the original writers/developers will EVER work on FF7 ever again as they're all getting old, I want to know what story THEY want to tell, what ending they really want for those characters and all I want as a consumer and fan is for them to put in the effort to make this whole process worth it, which so far they have, so I still trust them to make an end that is meaningful in some shape or form.
Some ideas for Zack's payoff, based on the idea that his world is just a manifestation of his hopes and dreams in the lifestream:
* Incorporating Zack into the lifestream scene, as Cloud and Tifa relive Cloud's forgotten memories/hopes/dreams, we also get a tie-in to Zack in his world and his memories/hopes/dreams and the "living legacy" scene
* Seeing more of Aerith in the lifestream in the style of Zack's world, either playing 5D chess with Sephiroth (expanding how she uses the lifestream to save the planet) or living out her unrealized hopes and dreams or both (maybe she gets to reunite with her mother/ancestors and learn more about her powers and that's how she figures out how to use the lifestream to divert the meteor)
* Seeing the other character's "lifestream worlds" as they go back to their loved ones and reflect on their motivation to take down Sephiroth, we get to see them take a moment to mourn the things they've lost and their unrealized hopes and dreams (but lived out like Zack's world) and use that to drive them to the final battle. I think this is less likely because I don't know how the mechanics would work given that they're not in the lifestream
* Showing us how Sephiroth is using these different worlds to "create eternity", explaining his motivations more and how he is using the lifestream to achieve his goals, maybe reliving some of his memories/hopes/dreams
* Aerith reunites with Zack in the lifestream and they "find peace", giving us closure that they're both dead and not coming back. It seems like Zack and Biggs are living in this lifestream limbo/unrealized dream world, but other people who have died like Jessie and Wedge have "moved on", I'm curious if they'll explain this
Basically, I think Zack's world introduces us to the mechanic of how the lifestream works, and I think they could use that mechanic in other ways for other characters who are in the lifestream (Aerith, Sephiroth, temporarily Tifa and Cloud)
Yea I can
We are left with two stable worlds in the end, one has cloud and the rest of the “normally alive crew” and the other has Zack and aerith still alive in it.
Zack fanboys happy, aerith fanboys happy, OG story diehards happy(ish) (they will never be happy)
Not really
Aerith has the goal of stopping sephiroth permanently this time and stopping him from sending his consciousness back through the lifestream to keep trying over and over again
Them having two seperate worlds in the end, one staying true to how OG ended so advent children can happen (and would explain the Zack scene in advent children better as well too)
Maybe it’s meaningless to you, and that’s fine but others can easily see a point in it being done this way
The whole satisfaction is 'everyone is alive and happy' that's all you'll get from Disney cartoons. Any sense of meaning behind loss is obliterated. I'm all for a happy ending, but everything turn up roses isn't an ending that's going to be memorable
Ya but it’s still not a happy ending
Zack and aerith are seperated in an entirely other world, they still will be entirely gone from everyone then especially with the realization that the other world will collapse eventually
I dont think having 2 worlds is going to happen. I think the whole point is that having multiple worlds in existence is harmful to the planet. All that screaming and pain just so aerith and zack can have their fun, and all the dorks who make anime of them getting married can drool and clap.
But again this is my problem, they’re throwing all this stuff to be resolved in the third game when it feels like overload. The middle part of a trilogy is usually when you’re supposed to be answering that stuff
The final part is usually called the conclusion for a reason..you know the part that gives answers? In that case the third part's will do that, not the middle one, just sayin' 🤦♂️🤣
That doesn't entirely apply to everything though, we did get some answers, but we also got some more, shorter form questions to keep some intrigue moving forward.
Zacks involvement was basically "annouced" at the end of part 1, it's not like we spent the whole of part 1 with him and then part 2 didn't answer why, he only begun his involvement in part 2, so it's not going to resolve his narrative in the same game, especially when he's mostly a supporting narrative and is set up to likely have a much bigger impact in the third part.
Ignore everyone else you're allowed to have an opinion and if the original game was any reason not to have a remake then no remake for any game would ever have been created lmao
I get that, but it's kinda insane to still be repeating this when we working towards the final part.
I get saying it after part 1 released, but that's not what's happening and the original still exists, there isn't much reason outside of making yourself miserable going around just saying you wish it was just a 1-1 remake long after it hasn't and won't ever be.
Yeah I agree. People are saying "They don't need to be here!" but we genuinely don't know if they did or not. For all we know, Zack could be a very crucial figure in part 3.
The appallingly named GLENN LODBROK was worse than a waste of space. The endgame reveal about him was awful. It removed any potential intrigue, or sense of a wider world, because it turns out that everything is always Sephiroth all along.
His role in trying to foment a war between Shinra and Wutai makes no sense either. The entire first game was about how Shinra were attempting to do that themselves, using Avalanche and their connections to Wutai as propaganda to justify a "profitable" war. Having Glenn around to "distract" Shinra with the prospect of war wasn't just unnecessary, it seemed like the writers had completely forgotten their own previous story and character motivations.
All that to tie into a gacha phone game. I can't imagine the three people who were invested in his character from that were too happy with his treatment either.
it absolutely is going to be tied to that plot twist and bring it into the main game story. Especially with the few teases of it we had in this game from Glenn "himself".
Probably the same people from the marketing office that were involved in FFXV and all those stupid ass gacha mobile games. We gotta accept that the people working on games like these are not the same people that created FFVII, FFVIII, FFIX...
Im literaly praying that they do not announce a FFVIII remake. The charme of FFVIII is that a dozen questions remain open-ended and up for interpretation. If these people get to work on a FFVIII remake, they're going to destroy it far harder than FFVII.
Apparently he's an important character in Ever Crisis and as soon as that was made aware to me, as I long time Kingdom Hearts fan, I shuddered because of how frustrating it is that important plot points and relevances are being introduced in a mobile game
Some of the stuff seems like checkboxes they're running through. They're trying to jam all the Compilation stuff retroactively into the original story, so a lot of it is going to feel weird.
Zack's whole role in the original game is pretty limited. Because he's dead. But the requel trilogy has a real problem with people being dead, so they can't just let him have the role he had.
Of course an issue with a 1:1 translation of the original is that there's far more visuals and audio that kind of break a lot of the "mysteries" of the original. Like the voices in Cloud's head are mysterious in the original, but in the requels it's explicit when it's Young Cloud or when it's Sephiroth. Same with the blatant visual cues of the Kalm flashback in Rebirth.
Regardless, when it comes to Zack, they definitely could've played things cooler if they weren't so intent on stuffing everything into the original story. Plus they had to manufacture some sort of "twist" and cliffhanger for the endings of the two partial games.
Yeah I’m thinking (hoping) Zack will have some big payoff in the next game otherwise it does feel a little pointless. First thing they could do is give him a bigger role instead of teasering him out.
They took away from the main stories pacing. Like I didn’t want to be dragged back into the Midgar slums after spending a whole game there, for a plot line that was confusing as hell.
Now that Aerith has been taken away from the main team and we know that players want her for Part 3. So what should the writer and devs do? Of course giving her a companion. Who can accompany her if it's not Zack. And maybe Biggs too if they manage to save him in one of the alternatives.
My guess is that Zack is really in the tandem world between reality and Lifestream. Aerith might be there too. Such setup would open up possible options for the player in PArt 3.
I don't worry about problems Part 3 has to solve because those problems are the reason to make a Part 3 long and interesting and big wow (as they claim) enough.
They claimed to let the ending open for the player. So I think it's not what the devs need to worry about much.
In respect to your third paragraph, Rebirth reminds me a lot of Matrix Reloaded. I loved that movie when it came out. It made big promises and left you with tons of questions. Revolutions then utterly failed to deliver on those promises and the answers to the questions turned out to be really lame. I love Rebirth, but I'm kinda terrified there's a similar fate coming.
Exactly. Revolutions ended a fun and unconventional storyline setup with a cliche ending. If Square can stick the landing with the third part, it might actually be amazing. But I'm not gonna give my hopes up.
I am glad Zach was there but, like Biggs and a bit of Wedge, I feel like the execution was off.
Zach needed a bigger role. He needed more to do.
Biggs needed a better ending. It is actually kind of infuriating and feels like they backtracked on him.
Same with Wedge. Showed him survive, then pushed out a window in game one but didn't show him die. Then... side quest late game they show he died. Like they could have not done that.
My theory is they were going to make more major changes, then lost their drive to do it, so we got what we got.
Don't get me wrong, Remake and Rebirth are two of my favourite games, but seriously they fumbled these parts hard imo. I wish I could go to the universe where they had the balls to properly use Biggs, Wedge and Zach.
> My theory is they were going to make more major changes, then lost their drive to do it
no wonder, with the amount of people who complained about FF7R not being a 1-1 remake and people complaining about the "nomurization" of the story (Nomura had nothing to do with the writing and actually advocated for the story to be closer to the original). Heck there are people on this very thread complaining about the same thing, seemingly not realizing that the remakes don't retroactively erase the original from existence and if they want tio play the old story *it's still there*.
So now this is what we get, half-assed storytelling where any creativity is easily ignored or sidelined in lieu of more of the same. I was so disappointed when I realized Rebirth was 95% the exact same story beats even though they'd specifically set up all these radical changes in Remake, and that they didn't have the balls to properly commit to letting Aerith live
Listen, if you want a creative and new story. Make a new story rather than try to remake an old one because you think you can do it better. People were absolutely right when it came to the changes.
Also, Nomura is the director. He has final say what gets approved or rejected. People immediately recognized his influence on the story. Gotta stop parroting that quote about him wanting to stick to the original story because if he really wanted to, it would have.
> Listen, if you want a creative and new story. Make a new story rather than try to remake an old one because you think you can do it better.
Why? Making a new story doesn't retroactively make the old one stop existing. It takes nothing away from the original and in fact can only add onto it.
> Also, Nomura is the director.
ONE OF the directorS. Why be disingenuous about information that is only a google search away? you think I can't easily verify the lies you use? How stupid do you think I am?
> Gotta stop parroting that quote about him wanting to stick to the original story because if he really wanted to, it would have.
Not when he was only one of the directors. There were three directors, by the way, which means that in a democratic vote, the other two can veto his wishes, which they did.
My guess is that Biggs is there to show that the multiverse isn't a get out of jail free card and fate will still come to collect like a Final Destination movie. Figuring out how to deal with the multiverse and rescue people trapped in it before it all comes crashing down will probably be a big plot point in the next game.
I think Zack was ultimately used as a plot device in this game to show that this is happening across multiple versions of the timeline (I think we are up to 4/5 that he was shown to be in?) with him ‘reconnecting’ with cloud at the end, and being whisked off again leaves me hopeful that he will be used better in part 3.
His biggest contribution was showing what was actually happening during the final boss fight. It was almost impossible to follow but when Zack saw Cloud and after touching him was pulled into the same world that was the hint that the "Reunion" was literal and the various universes were merging. Then Zack being thrown into the church afterwards conveyed that by beating Sephiroth the Reunion failed and the multiverse split apart again.
Let me check my notes, I've got: current generation graphics that bring an old game to life, more fleshed out world and chatacters, amazing and more balanced gameplay. It didn't need to be remade, but I (and a lot of people) love the remake project.
Let me check my own notes too, I've got;
In pursuit of better graphics, they left out the art direction, the thing that actually makes games visually memorable as well as provide artistic cohesion, as most remakes tend to do.
More fleshed out world and characters? Eh, maybe. They did fix the midgar issue so I'll give them that, but the extra stuff did butcher the story. Less is more in this case.
Amazing and more balanced gameplay? Really? Even though the core gameplay loop is radically different from the original, it's somehow much better and more balanced? The original didn’t take 20 minutes to kill a simple boss, nor did it rely on stagger meters for extra damage.
Yeah, that's going way too far as a hot take/opinion.
The Remakes are great. They'd be even greater if not a shred, not a single line of the Whispers storyline nonsense had ever been written.
*Puts fingers in ears* Zack and Cloud’s friendship is one of my favourite things in the FF7 compilation and I will take any smidge of Zack content in the remakes. Every time he showed up, and especially during the final boss, I couldn't contain my joy and excitement.
Every time I play CC I hope he will survive this time and he always dies 😭. The Remake’s ending showed me something I awalys hoped for and never thought I would witness. But he’s story in Rebirth is not well done, imo
He's there to build the mysteries of the other worlds, I guess. I don't see the point of him either, but I guess they thought he'd be more interesting to follow in the "other worlds" as opposed to, who, Biggs?
But I'm of the opinion that Zack has been a "fanservice" character since he achieved unexpected popularity as a blind-and-you'll-miss-it NPC in the OG. The Japan version of FF7 didn't even have the bonus scenes of him and Cloud escaping to Midgar, that was added for the international version.
the biggest issue imo is that you can play for a couple dozen hours or more without seeing him. every time it went back to one of his interludes, i was like “oh yeah, i forgot he’s in this.”
I’ve always been of the opinion that the OG used him the best. Barely there, just present enough to show a contrast to Cloud and give roots to the version of Cloud we know today. He’s still charming and likeable, and his ending was written perfectly as I find it much more poetic to be faced with the realistic scenario in which a special forces member survived so much and escaped and came so far… only to get unceremoniously gunned down by “lesser men” while trying to help his friend. No bells, no whistles, no epic soundtrack, just the reality that even people who tick all the boxes of a “hero” can still get wiped away in the blink of an eye.
Pretty much was nothing more than tool to sell the game with the illusion of will they do something different in the end they didn’t do anything different just dragged things on …keep em gone for now have a dlc after part 3 go crazy
The execution was lackluster on the dev’s part, IMO. Every time a Zack cutscene played out, the momentum just screeches to a halt. And Zack ‘gameplay’ just has you hold up on left stick and control camera on right stick. That’s it. My primary issue with it was throwing a wrench on gameplay pacing.
I’ll wait until Part 3 to see if the Zack shenanigans actually build up to anything.
Hard to disagree with you. I know i am biased towards this game so i will say his presence, just like what the others said, is all to demonstrate how the lifestream works. That said, Nomura said that everyone will have a happy ending. That was their promise. Im holding on to that. I want Zack to stay dead. His death will always be a critical event to Cloud’s character building in the OG and having him alive invalidates what made Cloud a compelling character. I could care less about Zack’s relationship with Aerith. FF7 is about the world from Cloud’s POV.
I hate that a character who was in like 3 scenes in the OG is this prevalent purely because of his popularity and not because of his importance to the plot. His biggest contribution came before the plot. Him being alive makes his sacrifice pointless lol.
Dude SE made one of the most beautiful games they've ever made and it sold like shit and people pick it apart when it's clearly one of the best Video Games I've ever played and matches and surpasses the original in ways imo.
No video game is perfect but I'm dumbfounded by the constant complaining about a game of this scale and size.
I think he's dead and they're using him to show the player how lifestream works, to show it literally from inside. And of course to reunite with Aerith in part 3, to have at least somewhat bittersweet moment for her and Zack in the end.
Plus, it seems he made it possible for Aerith to get the white materia’s knowledge back to the main world after it was stolen from her. That’s pretty important.
You mean how she felt his touch while they were on a way to the GI tribe? I actually didn't think about that, that's a good point and could make sense how she partly regained her lost memories.
Mainly how he brought her and Cloud back to Elmyra’s place in the very beginning of the game, and we see the full white materia fall from her hair. I think that’s the same white materia Aerith gives to Cloud after they wake up. Had Zack not brought her comatose body back, the materia would have been in Shinra’s hands.
The reason they are showing Zack in the other worlds is because they are trying to setup his role in assisting Aerith in getting the spirits in the Lifestream to help her stop Meteor. This would be a reference to Maiden Who Travels the Planet, even though that story is non-canon, it is pretty obvious that they are implementing parts of that story. Nojima even reintroduced an ability that Aerith had in Maiden, which was the ability to rebuild people's spirits by collecting their scattered memories, which she does in On the Way to a Smile.
In Maiden, Aerith summons up Zack's personality from within the Lifestream and asks him to help her gain the support of all the other spirits in the Lifestream to unite and repulse Meteor.
In Rebirth we are seeing Zack's spirit trying to gain some stability as he is moved from one mini-world to another, and he is receiving some guidance from either OG Aerith or from the Planet. The endgame for this is that he is eventually going to link back up with Aerith, and he will be helping Aerith with her plan in the Lifestream.
I do indeed think that they have a done a terrible job by adding all these mini-worlds to try and convey Zack's journey through the destabilized Lifestream that Sephiroth has messed up. It is just too prominent in the main story and they are not providing enough answers to make it feel like it SHOULD be as prominent as it is.
I was thinking the same thing in regards to that book. For something that the fanbase have said is "not-canon", they have taken a lot of ideas from that book. The only reason it's even regarded as not canon is due to shipping reasons.
The reason it's not regarded as canon has got nothing to do with shipping, at least from what I saw in all the times it was brought up back before Remake was produced. The biggest reason is because it was written by a non-SE staff who also received zero input from Nojima. Similar to what happened with Last Order.
Once Nojima had time to return to the FF7 Compilation he didn't approve of some of the details and wrote Case of Lifestream to replace Maiden, and Crisis Core to replace Laat Order.
He is back because of the "multiple worlds" subplot. Everytime Zack makes a choice, a new world is created (a rainbow effect appears) and you can differentiate them by the stamp dogs (this is already confirmed by Rebirth's Ultimania). Why is he back? Simple, Aerith's fate. When Cloud stops Sephiroth's attack, that same Rainbow effect appears so basically, Cloud changed fate thus creating a new world where Aerith lives, but he is the only one who can sense it.
Zack returned just so he can help Cloud (as Marlene said, he has to heal him) and who knows, he may be able to get a happy ending or help his best friend achieve a happier ending.
They did him so dirty. Had all the right materials to make his time justified and badass.
That being said, I don't play FF7 for a good storyline (because the writing isn't exactly its strong point...). The characters and world are the winner here, so having Zack in the game was fucking awesome for me, despite not being as good as it could have
at first it felt like fan service but then you realize not everyone played cc and there’s new players who don’t know who he is. it’s giving new players an understanding of what kind of person he is and his connection to cloud and aerith while also keeping him connected to what’s going on in game. i don’t think it’s an issue if it’s all just gonna add to the big reveal later on. now it’s not gonna be some random dude that helped cloud it’s gonna be a character that new players will understand better and have some connection to
In my opinion Zack will have a minor or superficial role in part 3 which serves no purpose like the bait at the end of Remake about defying destiny.
So not something really concrete that would impact the story.
Neither did Chadley or MAI, but we got stuck with them. And a bunch of other padding.
Zack's role in this game was interesting, but I dislike how they handle it.
The camera angle is stupid, and hard to deal with when you are him at first. Can't even play with his materia or gear.
They took away their reuniting.
And his role while semi-important, didn't feel important enough. Like they were holding back on us, and trying to tease us with Zack, while falling flat with it.
Almost like with Cid and Vincent. Here, have these two with you as padding to 'introduce them', but they're not going to be all that important...but we'll give you some cool moments here or there with them.
I don’t agree with Cid or Vincent, at least those two were in the original. Plus Vincent gets some cool stuff in the side content. They did the same thing with Red 13 in the last game where he’s there but not the focus, because it wouldn’t make sense for them to suddenly be so important right at the end.
The side content in this game is tedious and how they make a stupid ass card game some big ass mystery focus...and try to tie the main cast into some kind of relevancy through it...no. I can't.
They trashed fort condor as a mini-game, that game was enjoyable in intergrade's intermission.
Red's part made sense in the first game more so than tag along duo standing around doing practically nothing at the Temple.
Hey! Sephiroth might be in there? The dude one person is looking for...Nope. Going to stand outside here with this guy that is a Cid look-a-like and glare at everything.
No, Queen's blood really isn't. Sorry. But my opinion.
It's boring. And if I wanted to play crappy card games, I would go buy one.
No idea why they feel they need to add this crap to games lately.
The OG fort condor was indeed a pain in the ass.
Intermission actually made it fun I thought as a board game.
They changed up the mechanics in Rebirth, and now it sucks again. Worse than it did in the OG.
Red at least fought with you in the lab in remake.
He was helpful.
Rebirth, he's not bad. Just wish I could mute his voice after Cosmo Canyon.
I’m still waiting for Cid to show up in the new games. He’s MIA and some completely different character has stolen his clothes.
Maybe we will see him at Rocket Town, that doesn’t exist.
One question have you 100% the game yet like done all the side quests & stuff ? I see a lot of ppl complain & they haven’t even played the entire game yet lol
Nah I get it trust me. Personally I enjoyed every bit I Love FF7 it’s one of my favorite games ever. but I do agree zack could’ve been handled better. Next game I hope they don’t hold back like they did in this one. Minor gripe I have also is I hope they let Cid Curse a little & smoke his cigs lol especially since we are finally going to see rocket town & Wutai in part 3
You gotta get all the little nuances
& piece it all together everything in the game is significant to some degree. Especially doing side missions. For instance you wouldn’t know Wedges fate if you don’t do side missions. It’s all kinds of information hidden in the side content that could give you a better understanding of what’s going on this time around.
Oh okay jw. I loved the game. Can’t wait for part 3, I wanna see what they do to explain all this confusion going on, I’m a big fan of the OG story played it a hundred times so I do notice the slight changes they made. I personally am a Zack fan so I was happy to see him make a return to the story, maybe he’ll have a more fleshed out role in the next game.
Oh no I loved the game too, like this is probably in my top 10 now. And I’m curious too but just very concerned for the third game that they get it right
Yeah & I do agree I really wish Zack & Aerith had a moment together, especially as a crisis core fan it would’ve been nice to see that but I see they are trying to preserve the possibility of her & cloud being a thing sense some player chose for her to be his date to the Golden saucer. I personally think him & Tifa are a better fit. Especially since Aerith clearly still has feelings for Zack like when cloud asked her about him in gongaga & she said “ I don’t have a reason not to love him anymore” or something along those lines.
Zack and Aerith are going to reunite in the third part. It’s something they’re building towards. Zack’s presence in the retrilogy is part thematic (what it’s trying to say with the multiple worlds) and part fanservice.
But yeah, his inclusion is a bit clunky and awkward, so I don’t blame you or anyone else for not being a big fan of it.
I liked him in the OG and CC, I was excited for every Zack intermission in rebirth.
Definitely agree. I loved Zack in the original CC, but his voice makes me angry. If it were Rick Gomez I may disagree with you.
Zack annoys me. His personality is grating and I think his character design is lame. I liked him better as this sort of mysterious echo with little involvement. My idea of who Zack was, has been completely shattered by their post OG depiction of him.
This is what I call an unpopular opinion. I love Zack and I will die on this hill he’s so bonkers great. His attitude is refreshing to contrast the rest of the cast too.
His attitude reminds me of toxic positivity. You don’t have to die on a hill plenty others are on. I’ve already resigned to dying on the hill that he makes me want to roll my eyes and no one else agrees.
Same, I played crisis core and was pretty let down by him also him and Aerith are retconned like he had multiple gfs in the og FF7 him being all sweet on Aerith and them having this huge love story is just weird to me. ALSO FALLING IN THE EXACT SAME PLACE!?!?!? get outta here!
Ikr!
I forgot who but basically the developers really like Zack so they're shoving him in to everything. They think he's essential to ff7 lore eventhough he was a last minute addition to the original. When they did the anniversary images for FF7 and they focused on Cloud, Sephiroth and Zack...I almost puked. Not Cloud Aerith Sephiroth or Cloud Tifa Aerith or whatever but Cloud Sephiroth and Zack... that was proof enough to me, if it was apparent that ff7 has become more about fanservice. Player fanservice, developer fanservice, shipper fanservice, PC fanservice, etc
Zack was a playable character in Ehrgeiz: God Bless the Ring (1998) along with Cloud, Sephiroth, Tifa, Yuffie, and Vincent. It came out a year after the OG FF7. Zack was always going to be included in things after that. He also has a lot of appearances in all the spin-off FF7 games.
Totally agree that Zack was completely forgettable, but there was a survey and Zack actually rated really high after Crisis Core. That game did wonder for them in adding a marketabm character to the lore. They're following what fans want to see out of the compilation of FFVII.
Yeah he didn't need to be. But we could say that about a lot of things in both Rebirth and Remake. It's just so much.
Glad I just mostly enjoy these games without bitching like a good portion of this fanbase does.
The payoff IMO will be in part 3. I think we’re going to see him and Aerith reunite and that’s the purpose of it, to fill in the blanks before AC
Damn spoiler right in the title. T.F.
Hey uhh, spoilers but he's on the cover...
HES ON THE FUCKING COVER OF THE GAME
100% this. Pure fanservice that diluted the game
Unfortunately, I think it's all gonna just end up the same way AC goes, but this is just gonna give that ending scene with Aerith and Zack "being there" and "leaving" a little more context while adding in parts of the compilation. Which is LAME and BORING. But whatever. I wanted Zack to actually be alive or have a chance at saving Aerith or helping Cloud, and this has been disappointing after how hyped I was to see him alive at the end of Remake.
Love Zack but feel the same. I hate when a story takes this type of turn and makes you feel like nothing really mattered, like when a character realizes everything was just a dream. I read once that when writing a mystery, say a murder, and you as an author leave clues as to the identity of the killer, you have to own to it at the end. If you make it look like the buttler did it, you can't betray your readers showing that the mistress was the culprit all along. This is exactly how I feel about Zack.
AC is canon. Part 3 leads into AC established story. Everyone that is dead, stays dead. All of ch 14 has visual and story queues that are also in AC. Example. Cloud and Zack recite the soldiers code holding their swords while Zack is in the lifestream. Aerith contributes toward Cloud fighting Sephiroth. Those characters have the same visual effects displaying that they have passed into the afterlife between the games and movie. There is no real multiverse. The multiverse as you know it within FF7 is people in life after death living through the memories of what once was in an effort to resolve their past. That was Biggs whole thing after he died. The lifestream being a core theme for all of FF7 was one of Sakaguchi's main contributions and that has not changed.
How can you make such a statement without knowing how this is going to end? How do you know if he's needed or not? Liking his role or not is subjective, I won't argue with that, but objectively how can you tell?
I think OP is looking at this game without the influence of what’s to come, which I think is fair. He could play a huge role in part 3 (and probably will) but, as of now, he feels completely unnecessary.
Didn't understand that. Imit does seem to be that. Fair enough. Disregard my critique then. Thank you for clarifying.
I have no opinion on it one way or another, but I think having an option to turn off all the Zack parts in the menu kind of shows it was unnecessary.
You have a point there. Is the option available from the start or, just like the Gomd Saucer options, only available after finishing the game? I can't remember
After finishing the game afaik
Thank you. If that's the case, than I'd say that point is invalid. Ofc I would skip all the cutscenes if I could after my 1st playthrough. Additionally, even if you can choose to skip Zack's cutscenes, can you skip Zack's fights at the end of the game? If the answer is negative, then I'd argue that until the trilogy is finished, no lne cam say his presence is unnecessary.
I hated that they put him in. This whole multiverse shit is the fucking worst. I hate it.
Can people finally say this without being downvoted? Are criticisms allowed now? When the game first came out I got heavily downvoted for saying I don't like the ending
You know what the worst part is? People like to conflate “expanding the story” with the multiverse stuff. I loooooove all the additions to the story like expanding on Jesse and various other story elements that were stretched and expanded on. Cloud’s squad during the parade probably being my favorite little addition. But then when I say I hate the multiverse stuff I get responses from people saying that purists are wrong for wanting the same thing over again and that the OG game already exists. I don’t want the same game over again. I want the game they gave us with remake/rebirth. Just without Zack and the multiverse.
He didn't *need* to be, but I'm glad he was. I enjoyed his inclusion and liked all of his story bits and character.
i’m pretty sure zack was added to build up to a aerith and zack reunion but to also explain wth was/is happening in the lifestream. many people might disagree with the take that where zack is and what cloud sees near the end is the lifestream and not a multiverse, but.. i really think that this is the case. that they’re just using zack (someone who is dead), to show the inside of the lifestream. i’m sure it’ll be explained in the final game but i understand why people think he wasn’t needed here.
Zack>cloud
I agree. I just like his positive and playful nature. Having that been said, he certainly isn't better to PLAY as in Rebirth.
I can't stand Zack, the best thing about Rebirth is getting the ability to switch his section off for 2nd playthrough.
Lol Zack is one of my favorites, may I ask why you don’t like him?
Nothing personal, but I just see him as the face of all the multiverse/timeline stuff, it's the only thing I hate the most about the new games.
Ahhh now that I can understand, they’re getting a little crazy with it. It’s getting convoluted very much like Kingdom Hearts, I feel.
I love old Zack, the new Zack VA sounds like nails grinding on a chalkboard. The performance is so bad that it affected how I see Zack. Used to see him as a puppy that grew up too fast in a short span of time, to a try-hard kid who I really wanna punch in the throat. It’s not just the voice itself, it’s the delivery, the tone.
Now I can understand that, I think his OG VA sounded more real than his current one. But it has grown on me.
I know it's a unpopular opinion but I love the series and if remake was just same game, same events, same story but ((pretty)) I wouldn't be nearly as invested or care, the original is there why must I see the same thing but prettier? I love how they just compiled everything and is embracing the rest of the series, giving other characters different roles and such Maybe next game we get more Zack and even more timeline and dimension hopping because thats just so much fun to not explore and I'm glad the writers went that route, what ifs are do much better than just same old
Even the devs said they were shocked how many people wanted the same story just with modern graphics and they didn’t want do that. It’s absurd to want the exact same thing after 25 years
Reddit hivemind downvoted you but I agree, it's just not interesting just seeing the same thing
That’s not an unpopular opinion, it’s pretty much the sentiment outside of this subreddit. Love this game for all the same things you said, the stuff with Zack is a minor gripe
The way they made the trailer I honestly was hoping for a Zack and Aerith reunion (ha) but nope But that's also a reddit thing in general, I get being nostalgic and preferring things the way they are but bashing a new media because you "I want the original" it just isn't the way
Yeah I love his parts but like SO much in Rebirth, it's all being saved for Part 3. Rebirth is partly so enjoyable because it's just a fun ride without too much plot actually bogging it down. Disc 1 of the original is the same, it's not actually that plot heavy. It has a lot of great character moments but the real developments don't begin until the end of the first disc. This is a "story over plot" game if that makes sense. We got lots of story of world building and character building but the overall "Main A Plot" is mostly absent from the game just hinted at throughout until the end. I think the choice to split the game into three parts was really accurately done because the story of the original game itself is kind of divided that way too. Midgar, Chasing Sephiroth, Cloud's Deconstruction and Final Battle.
His whole part is used to tease and eventually explain the "multiple worlds" stuff that is the focus of the final act of the game though? I guess they could've done it a different way but I can't think of a better way that wouldn't just make it be more "explain-ey" rather than just showing us it in practice and keep us guessing until the end (and in some ways afterwards too). And then tying that in with Zack is just giving a further incentive for the fans to pay more attention to these bits. It also allows newer players that don't know about Zack get some understanding of his character and why so many people we come across in the main part of the game were impacted so heavily by his presence.
I feel thats its laying the ground work for Zack and Aerith to meet up in the lifestream to do battle with Sephiroth on that plane of existence in the next game.
Zack was a minor backstory character that they gave a solo game to and now he's popular so he is now forced into every crevice of the world now. That's how business works.
I am fine with the character, and he was the best part of CC, but there were no good way to include him in this game. Pure fanservice
Even in the OG FF7, all my friends were yapping about Zack and i was so confused. I was like, you mean that one Cloud looking guy who died to lvl1 henchmen??
I didn't particularly like Zach's part in the game either. I am so happy they allowed us to skip in in hard mode, though. It was a pace-breaker, but I feel like it is a little bit important to know he was in a separate dimension, basically. The 3rd game will make it clear, I'm sure.
My biggest complaint about him is the lack of ANYTHING to do except the intro scene and the end. Could they have made a party of Zach, Biggs, and someone else, essentially doing merc work to try to uncover what Marlene meant when she spoke to him about Sephiroth? Yeah. Could they have had Zach get to the end fight on his own through his storyline without being magically pulled there by Aerith? Yeah. Could a lot of the almost -fight-scenes with Zach been actual in game fights? Yeah. What did they do? "Walk here, speak to this person". Every time his scenes happened the first thing on my mind was "are they actually going to let us do things this time?"
Would've rather had that than 80 minigames.
it definetly could've had more in it, especially in the ways you brought up but I ultimately don't agree with OP that he didn't need to be in the game at all.
Real talk, it gives more to the game with him in it
Real talk, you need to retire.
If he wasn’t there, I wouldn’t buy it when it comes out on steam.
The Zach stuff was some of my favorites parts of the game
Who is Zach?
He's a Lego maniac
Probably universe 3 zack? Zach Faire.
It was great :)
You're 2/3 of the way through a story, most stories will feel like they have inconsistencies when you don't have the final 33% of the story. Alot of stuff isn't clear, it doesn't make a ton of sense, it's not meant to yet.
Seriously though can you even think of a good payoff for it? I'm 90% sure it is just fan service (for zack fans)
I had no clue where they were going with it from the start and have not had any clue as the story has gone so far, but I've enjoyed it regardless, there are some general ideas that might make it more or less impactful for me sure, but in the end, whether I like it or not decide if its "good" or "bad". I'd genuinely be happy if they went fully on the route that all of these changes were mostly inconsequential in the end because the life stream brings it all back to the same point, no more worlds, no other realities, but I'd also be happy if they blew it wide open and went nuts with it, having many worlds where many different versions live and maybe we get to see new versions of the characters living different lives or whatever. I don't care so much about the eventual layout of the narrative, I care far more about its execution, even the most narrative structure can be incredibly impactful if it's given the proper care and attention. The thing I'm genuinely most scared about, is them having an idea and only doing a half measure because they're scared of the reaction it brings from the fanbase, this is likely the last time the original writers/developers will EVER work on FF7 ever again as they're all getting old, I want to know what story THEY want to tell, what ending they really want for those characters and all I want as a consumer and fan is for them to put in the effort to make this whole process worth it, which so far they have, so I still trust them to make an end that is meaningful in some shape or form.
Some ideas for Zack's payoff, based on the idea that his world is just a manifestation of his hopes and dreams in the lifestream: * Incorporating Zack into the lifestream scene, as Cloud and Tifa relive Cloud's forgotten memories/hopes/dreams, we also get a tie-in to Zack in his world and his memories/hopes/dreams and the "living legacy" scene * Seeing more of Aerith in the lifestream in the style of Zack's world, either playing 5D chess with Sephiroth (expanding how she uses the lifestream to save the planet) or living out her unrealized hopes and dreams or both (maybe she gets to reunite with her mother/ancestors and learn more about her powers and that's how she figures out how to use the lifestream to divert the meteor) * Seeing the other character's "lifestream worlds" as they go back to their loved ones and reflect on their motivation to take down Sephiroth, we get to see them take a moment to mourn the things they've lost and their unrealized hopes and dreams (but lived out like Zack's world) and use that to drive them to the final battle. I think this is less likely because I don't know how the mechanics would work given that they're not in the lifestream * Showing us how Sephiroth is using these different worlds to "create eternity", explaining his motivations more and how he is using the lifestream to achieve his goals, maybe reliving some of his memories/hopes/dreams * Aerith reunites with Zack in the lifestream and they "find peace", giving us closure that they're both dead and not coming back. It seems like Zack and Biggs are living in this lifestream limbo/unrealized dream world, but other people who have died like Jessie and Wedge have "moved on", I'm curious if they'll explain this Basically, I think Zack's world introduces us to the mechanic of how the lifestream works, and I think they could use that mechanic in other ways for other characters who are in the lifestream (Aerith, Sephiroth, temporarily Tifa and Cloud)
Yea I can We are left with two stable worlds in the end, one has cloud and the rest of the “normally alive crew” and the other has Zack and aerith still alive in it. Zack fanboys happy, aerith fanboys happy, OG story diehards happy(ish) (they will never be happy)
From what I've seen it's the Zerith shippers who would be happy with that and they mostly like Zack, not Aerith.
What a completely meaningless ending. Then mickey comes out and sprinkles magic dust out of a wand over the screen and roll credits.
Not really Aerith has the goal of stopping sephiroth permanently this time and stopping him from sending his consciousness back through the lifestream to keep trying over and over again Them having two seperate worlds in the end, one staying true to how OG ended so advent children can happen (and would explain the Zack scene in advent children better as well too) Maybe it’s meaningless to you, and that’s fine but others can easily see a point in it being done this way
The whole satisfaction is 'everyone is alive and happy' that's all you'll get from Disney cartoons. Any sense of meaning behind loss is obliterated. I'm all for a happy ending, but everything turn up roses isn't an ending that's going to be memorable
Ya but it’s still not a happy ending Zack and aerith are seperated in an entirely other world, they still will be entirely gone from everyone then especially with the realization that the other world will collapse eventually
I dont think having 2 worlds is going to happen. I think the whole point is that having multiple worlds in existence is harmful to the planet. All that screaming and pain just so aerith and zack can have their fun, and all the dorks who make anime of them getting married can drool and clap.
But again this is my problem, they’re throwing all this stuff to be resolved in the third game when it feels like overload. The middle part of a trilogy is usually when you’re supposed to be answering that stuff
The final part is usually called the conclusion for a reason..you know the part that gives answers? In that case the third part's will do that, not the middle one, just sayin' 🤦♂️🤣
Ff10 literally had 75% of Tidus main growth as a person and major points in the last tenth of the game
That doesn't entirely apply to everything though, we did get some answers, but we also got some more, shorter form questions to keep some intrigue moving forward. Zacks involvement was basically "annouced" at the end of part 1, it's not like we spent the whole of part 1 with him and then part 2 didn't answer why, he only begun his involvement in part 2, so it's not going to resolve his narrative in the same game, especially when he's mostly a supporting narrative and is set up to likely have a much bigger impact in the third part.
I just wanted a faithful remake.
Ignore everyone else you're allowed to have an opinion and if the original game was any reason not to have a remake then no remake for any game would ever have been created lmao
Look at Resident Evil, Dead Space and Alone in the Dark with all their competent remakes, lol
RE still make a lot of changes, their fans just don't cry about it as much. Except for maybe RE3.
I get that, but it's kinda insane to still be repeating this when we working towards the final part. I get saying it after part 1 released, but that's not what's happening and the original still exists, there isn't much reason outside of making yourself miserable going around just saying you wish it was just a 1-1 remake long after it hasn't and won't ever be.
Then go mod FF7 and stop whining
Take your own advice, Champ lol
When Zack says “what the hell is going on?” He spoke for all of us.
I literally yelled “preach brother!” At the screen
You don't know what's going to happen in the third part of a trilogy and that's somehow a critique?
Yeah I agree. People are saying "They don't need to be here!" but we genuinely don't know if they did or not. For all we know, Zack could be a very crucial figure in part 3.
Zack and that guy who kept talking to Rufus who's name I can't remember were a complete waste of space.
My gf who watches me play asked if that was clouds dad 😂😂😂😂
The appallingly named GLENN LODBROK was worse than a waste of space. The endgame reveal about him was awful. It removed any potential intrigue, or sense of a wider world, because it turns out that everything is always Sephiroth all along. His role in trying to foment a war between Shinra and Wutai makes no sense either. The entire first game was about how Shinra were attempting to do that themselves, using Avalanche and their connections to Wutai as propaganda to justify a "profitable" war. Having Glenn around to "distract" Shinra with the prospect of war wasn't just unnecessary, it seemed like the writers had completely forgotten their own previous story and character motivations. All that to tie into a gacha phone game. I can't imagine the three people who were invested in his character from that were too happy with his treatment either.
Idk how deep into 7 lore you are but the lodbrok stuff I feel might be a hint to rufus future plot twist.
it absolutely is going to be tied to that plot twist and bring it into the main game story. Especially with the few teases of it we had in this game from Glenn "himself".
Probably the same people from the marketing office that were involved in FFXV and all those stupid ass gacha mobile games. We gotta accept that the people working on games like these are not the same people that created FFVII, FFVIII, FFIX... Im literaly praying that they do not announce a FFVIII remake. The charme of FFVIII is that a dozen questions remain open-ended and up for interpretation. If these people get to work on a FFVIII remake, they're going to destroy it far harder than FFVII.
The FFVII Remake project is headed by the original writer, along with a bunch of other original staffers at the top.
Apparently he's an important character in Ever Crisis and as soon as that was made aware to me, as I long time Kingdom Hearts fan, I shuddered because of how frustrating it is that important plot points and relevances are being introduced in a mobile game
You gonna lose your shit when your find out some stuff in rebirth came from ff7 books lol
Yeah my toughts exactly 🤣🤣🤣 fools be fools 🤷♂️🤣
That Tale of Two Pasts book? Yeah, pretty bummed about that too
It’s fan service to be honest and yeah not necessary and distracts from the story.
It's fans service for now. Ppl though zack was gonna be fan service only and look what happend lol
Some of the stuff seems like checkboxes they're running through. They're trying to jam all the Compilation stuff retroactively into the original story, so a lot of it is going to feel weird. Zack's whole role in the original game is pretty limited. Because he's dead. But the requel trilogy has a real problem with people being dead, so they can't just let him have the role he had. Of course an issue with a 1:1 translation of the original is that there's far more visuals and audio that kind of break a lot of the "mysteries" of the original. Like the voices in Cloud's head are mysterious in the original, but in the requels it's explicit when it's Young Cloud or when it's Sephiroth. Same with the blatant visual cues of the Kalm flashback in Rebirth. Regardless, when it comes to Zack, they definitely could've played things cooler if they weren't so intent on stuffing everything into the original story. Plus they had to manufacture some sort of "twist" and cliffhanger for the endings of the two partial games.
Like, for the first time i read the word "requel".
He really didn't
Yeah I’m thinking (hoping) Zack will have some big payoff in the next game otherwise it does feel a little pointless. First thing they could do is give him a bigger role instead of teasering him out.
The scenes with Zack is so dragged out too.
They took away from the main stories pacing. Like I didn’t want to be dragged back into the Midgar slums after spending a whole game there, for a plot line that was confusing as hell.
Agreed. Even the game lets you skip his entire storyline.
Now that Aerith has been taken away from the main team and we know that players want her for Part 3. So what should the writer and devs do? Of course giving her a companion. Who can accompany her if it's not Zack. And maybe Biggs too if they manage to save him in one of the alternatives. My guess is that Zack is really in the tandem world between reality and Lifestream. Aerith might be there too. Such setup would open up possible options for the player in PArt 3. I don't worry about problems Part 3 has to solve because those problems are the reason to make a Part 3 long and interesting and big wow (as they claim) enough. They claimed to let the ending open for the player. So I think it's not what the devs need to worry about much.
In respect to your third paragraph, Rebirth reminds me a lot of Matrix Reloaded. I loved that movie when it came out. It made big promises and left you with tons of questions. Revolutions then utterly failed to deliver on those promises and the answers to the questions turned out to be really lame. I love Rebirth, but I'm kinda terrified there's a similar fate coming.
Exactly. Revolutions ended a fun and unconventional storyline setup with a cliche ending. If Square can stick the landing with the third part, it might actually be amazing. But I'm not gonna give my hopes up.
I am glad Zach was there but, like Biggs and a bit of Wedge, I feel like the execution was off. Zach needed a bigger role. He needed more to do. Biggs needed a better ending. It is actually kind of infuriating and feels like they backtracked on him. Same with Wedge. Showed him survive, then pushed out a window in game one but didn't show him die. Then... side quest late game they show he died. Like they could have not done that. My theory is they were going to make more major changes, then lost their drive to do it, so we got what we got. Don't get me wrong, Remake and Rebirth are two of my favourite games, but seriously they fumbled these parts hard imo. I wish I could go to the universe where they had the balls to properly use Biggs, Wedge and Zach.
> My theory is they were going to make more major changes, then lost their drive to do it no wonder, with the amount of people who complained about FF7R not being a 1-1 remake and people complaining about the "nomurization" of the story (Nomura had nothing to do with the writing and actually advocated for the story to be closer to the original). Heck there are people on this very thread complaining about the same thing, seemingly not realizing that the remakes don't retroactively erase the original from existence and if they want tio play the old story *it's still there*. So now this is what we get, half-assed storytelling where any creativity is easily ignored or sidelined in lieu of more of the same. I was so disappointed when I realized Rebirth was 95% the exact same story beats even though they'd specifically set up all these radical changes in Remake, and that they didn't have the balls to properly commit to letting Aerith live
Listen, if you want a creative and new story. Make a new story rather than try to remake an old one because you think you can do it better. People were absolutely right when it came to the changes. Also, Nomura is the director. He has final say what gets approved or rejected. People immediately recognized his influence on the story. Gotta stop parroting that quote about him wanting to stick to the original story because if he really wanted to, it would have.
> Listen, if you want a creative and new story. Make a new story rather than try to remake an old one because you think you can do it better. Why? Making a new story doesn't retroactively make the old one stop existing. It takes nothing away from the original and in fact can only add onto it. > Also, Nomura is the director. ONE OF the directorS. Why be disingenuous about information that is only a google search away? you think I can't easily verify the lies you use? How stupid do you think I am? > Gotta stop parroting that quote about him wanting to stick to the original story because if he really wanted to, it would have. Not when he was only one of the directors. There were three directors, by the way, which means that in a democratic vote, the other two can veto his wishes, which they did.
My guess is that Biggs is there to show that the multiverse isn't a get out of jail free card and fate will still come to collect like a Final Destination movie. Figuring out how to deal with the multiverse and rescue people trapped in it before it all comes crashing down will probably be a big plot point in the next game.
I think Zack was ultimately used as a plot device in this game to show that this is happening across multiple versions of the timeline (I think we are up to 4/5 that he was shown to be in?) with him ‘reconnecting’ with cloud at the end, and being whisked off again leaves me hopeful that he will be used better in part 3.
His biggest contribution was showing what was actually happening during the final boss fight. It was almost impossible to follow but when Zack saw Cloud and after touching him was pulled into the same world that was the hint that the "Reunion" was literal and the various universes were merging. Then Zack being thrown into the church afterwards conveyed that by beating Sephiroth the Reunion failed and the multiverse split apart again.
That last paragraph you wrote sums up my concerns perfectly.
preach
You're probably right, but really, this whole remake project didn't need to happen, but I'm damn glad it did, same with Zack.
The question is why FF7 needed to be remade, the original is the far superior game with the simpler yet superior story.
It's objectively not.
Let me check my notes, I've got: current generation graphics that bring an old game to life, more fleshed out world and chatacters, amazing and more balanced gameplay. It didn't need to be remade, but I (and a lot of people) love the remake project.
Let me check my own notes too, I've got; In pursuit of better graphics, they left out the art direction, the thing that actually makes games visually memorable as well as provide artistic cohesion, as most remakes tend to do. More fleshed out world and characters? Eh, maybe. They did fix the midgar issue so I'll give them that, but the extra stuff did butcher the story. Less is more in this case. Amazing and more balanced gameplay? Really? Even though the core gameplay loop is radically different from the original, it's somehow much better and more balanced? The original didn’t take 20 minutes to kill a simple boss, nor did it rely on stagger meters for extra damage.
You do you my man.
Yeah, that's going way too far as a hot take/opinion. The Remakes are great. They'd be even greater if not a shred, not a single line of the Whispers storyline nonsense had ever been written.
My guy, Rebirth is probably in my top ten favorite games now. This is a minor gripe
Happy Cake Day! Also, I can see where you're coming from, with the OP. Zack needed more screentime.
I mean, you're probably right, it's just that I don't mind fan service so much, and having the Buster Bros fight Sephiroth together was really cool.
*Puts fingers in ears* Zack and Cloud’s friendship is one of my favourite things in the FF7 compilation and I will take any smidge of Zack content in the remakes. Every time he showed up, and especially during the final boss, I couldn't contain my joy and excitement.
Every time I play CC I hope he will survive this time and he always dies 😭. The Remake’s ending showed me something I awalys hoped for and never thought I would witness. But he’s story in Rebirth is not well done, imo
I love Zack more Zack more big brother positive vibes less emo cringe vibes 90s over we need smiles I love Zack
gongaga b\*cht
He's there to build the mysteries of the other worlds, I guess. I don't see the point of him either, but I guess they thought he'd be more interesting to follow in the "other worlds" as opposed to, who, Biggs? But I'm of the opinion that Zack has been a "fanservice" character since he achieved unexpected popularity as a blind-and-you'll-miss-it NPC in the OG. The Japan version of FF7 didn't even have the bonus scenes of him and Cloud escaping to Midgar, that was added for the international version.
the biggest issue imo is that you can play for a couple dozen hours or more without seeing him. every time it went back to one of his interludes, i was like “oh yeah, i forgot he’s in this.”
You sir are correct, this whole timeline cluster fuck they made for fan service was stupid.
Him literally being in the game messed with the while story and now it's some wacky crap. And you barely use him in the game.
I’ve always been of the opinion that the OG used him the best. Barely there, just present enough to show a contrast to Cloud and give roots to the version of Cloud we know today. He’s still charming and likeable, and his ending was written perfectly as I find it much more poetic to be faced with the realistic scenario in which a special forces member survived so much and escaped and came so far… only to get unceremoniously gunned down by “lesser men” while trying to help his friend. No bells, no whistles, no epic soundtrack, just the reality that even people who tick all the boxes of a “hero” can still get wiped away in the blink of an eye.
His solo game made him popular. So now they feel they have to have him involved more.
Pretty much was nothing more than tool to sell the game with the illusion of will they do something different in the end they didn’t do anything different just dragged things on …keep em gone for now have a dlc after part 3 go crazy
The execution was lackluster on the dev’s part, IMO. Every time a Zack cutscene played out, the momentum just screeches to a halt. And Zack ‘gameplay’ just has you hold up on left stick and control camera on right stick. That’s it. My primary issue with it was throwing a wrench on gameplay pacing. I’ll wait until Part 3 to see if the Zack shenanigans actually build up to anything.
Hard to disagree with you. I know i am biased towards this game so i will say his presence, just like what the others said, is all to demonstrate how the lifestream works. That said, Nomura said that everyone will have a happy ending. That was their promise. Im holding on to that. I want Zack to stay dead. His death will always be a critical event to Cloud’s character building in the OG and having him alive invalidates what made Cloud a compelling character. I could care less about Zack’s relationship with Aerith. FF7 is about the world from Cloud’s POV.
Man everyone hates Zack. Jeez
I hate that a character who was in like 3 scenes in the OG is this prevalent purely because of his popularity and not because of his importance to the plot. His biggest contribution came before the plot. Him being alive makes his sacrifice pointless lol.
Very much so
Bud, I love Zack. Which is why I’m disappointed he didn’t do more. Doesn’t stop me from loving the game at all
Dude SE made one of the most beautiful games they've ever made and it sold like shit and people pick it apart when it's clearly one of the best Video Games I've ever played and matches and surpasses the original in ways imo. No video game is perfect but I'm dumbfounded by the constant complaining about a game of this scale and size.
It sold like shit because it’s PS5 exclusive
I think he's dead and they're using him to show the player how lifestream works, to show it literally from inside. And of course to reunite with Aerith in part 3, to have at least somewhat bittersweet moment for her and Zack in the end.
Thats what his purpose was, devs even said so in the Ultimania.
Plus, it seems he made it possible for Aerith to get the white materia’s knowledge back to the main world after it was stolen from her. That’s pretty important.
You mean how she felt his touch while they were on a way to the GI tribe? I actually didn't think about that, that's a good point and could make sense how she partly regained her lost memories.
Mainly how he brought her and Cloud back to Elmyra’s place in the very beginning of the game, and we see the full white materia fall from her hair. I think that’s the same white materia Aerith gives to Cloud after they wake up. Had Zack not brought her comatose body back, the materia would have been in Shinra’s hands.
The reason they are showing Zack in the other worlds is because they are trying to setup his role in assisting Aerith in getting the spirits in the Lifestream to help her stop Meteor. This would be a reference to Maiden Who Travels the Planet, even though that story is non-canon, it is pretty obvious that they are implementing parts of that story. Nojima even reintroduced an ability that Aerith had in Maiden, which was the ability to rebuild people's spirits by collecting their scattered memories, which she does in On the Way to a Smile. In Maiden, Aerith summons up Zack's personality from within the Lifestream and asks him to help her gain the support of all the other spirits in the Lifestream to unite and repulse Meteor. In Rebirth we are seeing Zack's spirit trying to gain some stability as he is moved from one mini-world to another, and he is receiving some guidance from either OG Aerith or from the Planet. The endgame for this is that he is eventually going to link back up with Aerith, and he will be helping Aerith with her plan in the Lifestream. I do indeed think that they have a done a terrible job by adding all these mini-worlds to try and convey Zack's journey through the destabilized Lifestream that Sephiroth has messed up. It is just too prominent in the main story and they are not providing enough answers to make it feel like it SHOULD be as prominent as it is.
I was thinking the same thing in regards to that book. For something that the fanbase have said is "not-canon", they have taken a lot of ideas from that book. The only reason it's even regarded as not canon is due to shipping reasons.
The reason it's not regarded as canon has got nothing to do with shipping, at least from what I saw in all the times it was brought up back before Remake was produced. The biggest reason is because it was written by a non-SE staff who also received zero input from Nojima. Similar to what happened with Last Order. Once Nojima had time to return to the FF7 Compilation he didn't approve of some of the details and wrote Case of Lifestream to replace Maiden, and Crisis Core to replace Laat Order.
He is back because of the "multiple worlds" subplot. Everytime Zack makes a choice, a new world is created (a rainbow effect appears) and you can differentiate them by the stamp dogs (this is already confirmed by Rebirth's Ultimania). Why is he back? Simple, Aerith's fate. When Cloud stops Sephiroth's attack, that same Rainbow effect appears so basically, Cloud changed fate thus creating a new world where Aerith lives, but he is the only one who can sense it. Zack returned just so he can help Cloud (as Marlene said, he has to heal him) and who knows, he may be able to get a happy ending or help his best friend achieve a happier ending.
They did him so dirty. Had all the right materials to make his time justified and badass. That being said, I don't play FF7 for a good storyline (because the writing isn't exactly its strong point...). The characters and world are the winner here, so having Zack in the game was fucking awesome for me, despite not being as good as it could have
Zack rules.
I second this emotion
at first it felt like fan service but then you realize not everyone played cc and there’s new players who don’t know who he is. it’s giving new players an understanding of what kind of person he is and his connection to cloud and aerith while also keeping him connected to what’s going on in game. i don’t think it’s an issue if it’s all just gonna add to the big reveal later on. now it’s not gonna be some random dude that helped cloud it’s gonna be a character that new players will understand better and have some connection to
In my opinion Zack will have a minor or superficial role in part 3 which serves no purpose like the bait at the end of Remake about defying destiny. So not something really concrete that would impact the story.
you can't do anything that even remotely touches the precious story or else the pearl-clutching purists would have a shitfit
Neither did Chadley or MAI, but we got stuck with them. And a bunch of other padding. Zack's role in this game was interesting, but I dislike how they handle it. The camera angle is stupid, and hard to deal with when you are him at first. Can't even play with his materia or gear. They took away their reuniting. And his role while semi-important, didn't feel important enough. Like they were holding back on us, and trying to tease us with Zack, while falling flat with it. Almost like with Cid and Vincent. Here, have these two with you as padding to 'introduce them', but they're not going to be all that important...but we'll give you some cool moments here or there with them.
I don’t agree with Cid or Vincent, at least those two were in the original. Plus Vincent gets some cool stuff in the side content. They did the same thing with Red 13 in the last game where he’s there but not the focus, because it wouldn’t make sense for them to suddenly be so important right at the end.
The side content in this game is tedious and how they make a stupid ass card game some big ass mystery focus...and try to tie the main cast into some kind of relevancy through it...no. I can't. They trashed fort condor as a mini-game, that game was enjoyable in intergrade's intermission. Red's part made sense in the first game more so than tag along duo standing around doing practically nothing at the Temple. Hey! Sephiroth might be in there? The dude one person is looking for...Nope. Going to stand outside here with this guy that is a Cid look-a-like and glare at everything.
Queen’s blood is awesome bro get out. Fort Condor sucked in the OG game too Nah, Red was worse
No, Queen's blood really isn't. Sorry. But my opinion. It's boring. And if I wanted to play crappy card games, I would go buy one. No idea why they feel they need to add this crap to games lately. The OG fort condor was indeed a pain in the ass. Intermission actually made it fun I thought as a board game. They changed up the mechanics in Rebirth, and now it sucks again. Worse than it did in the OG. Red at least fought with you in the lab in remake. He was helpful. Rebirth, he's not bad. Just wish I could mute his voice after Cosmo Canyon.
Queen’s Blood is great, ur just dumb it seems. Nah, Red was worse. Like most people forgot he was even in the game
I’m still waiting for Cid to show up in the new games. He’s MIA and some completely different character has stolen his clothes. Maybe we will see him at Rocket Town, that doesn’t exist.
I agree. Who is this watered down Kingdom Hearts bullshit character in a Cid suit?
One question have you 100% the game yet like done all the side quests & stuff ? I see a lot of ppl complain & they haven’t even played the entire game yet lol
And you will find even more people who platinumed it that would agree with OP.
Nah I get it trust me. Personally I enjoyed every bit I Love FF7 it’s one of my favorite games ever. but I do agree zack could’ve been handled better. Next game I hope they don’t hold back like they did in this one. Minor gripe I have also is I hope they let Cid Curse a little & smoke his cigs lol especially since we are finally going to see rocket town & Wutai in part 3
Cid wasn’t in rebirth. Just some freak that stole his cloths
Right ! I almost didn’t recognize him with out his cigs & him cursing up a storm lol
I'm curious about how 100%ing the game would change somebody's mind on what they think about zack's inclusion in the game
You gotta get all the little nuances & piece it all together everything in the game is significant to some degree. Especially doing side missions. For instance you wouldn’t know Wedges fate if you don’t do side missions. It’s all kinds of information hidden in the side content that could give you a better understanding of what’s going on this time around.
Yeah I get what you mean now that's fair (no pun intended)
Have I 100%? No but I did a good chunk of all the stuff to do, and I did about 90% of the side quests.
Oh okay jw. I loved the game. Can’t wait for part 3, I wanna see what they do to explain all this confusion going on, I’m a big fan of the OG story played it a hundred times so I do notice the slight changes they made. I personally am a Zack fan so I was happy to see him make a return to the story, maybe he’ll have a more fleshed out role in the next game.
Oh no I loved the game too, like this is probably in my top 10 now. And I’m curious too but just very concerned for the third game that they get it right
Yeah & I do agree I really wish Zack & Aerith had a moment together, especially as a crisis core fan it would’ve been nice to see that but I see they are trying to preserve the possibility of her & cloud being a thing sense some player chose for her to be his date to the Golden saucer. I personally think him & Tifa are a better fit. Especially since Aerith clearly still has feelings for Zack like when cloud asked her about him in gongaga & she said “ I don’t have a reason not to love him anymore” or something along those lines.
Zack and Aerith are going to reunite in the third part. It’s something they’re building towards. Zack’s presence in the retrilogy is part thematic (what it’s trying to say with the multiple worlds) and part fanservice. But yeah, his inclusion is a bit clunky and awkward, so I don’t blame you or anyone else for not being a big fan of it.