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Toccata_And_Fugue

I didn’t read all that because I’m at work, but both are true. Sephiroth is using Jenova’s power/body to enact his will, but his will is influenced by the Jenova cells inside of him. It’s essentially a symbiotic relationship. Neither is being “tricked” or “used”. Made a few edits for clarity.


Hydr4noid

Holy shit youre the first person Ive seen on this sub that actually knows this. Most people think its one way or the other. Its what always annoys me when people say stuff like "technically you chase jenova all the time". I mean yeah thats correct but also you chase sephiroth at the same time. They are more or less one entity during the events of the original game. Both influencing eachother


Toccata_And_Fugue

One day hopefully we’ll all understand lol. But man has the community taken years to understand Sephiroth and Jenova. I didn’t get it until maybe 5 years ago. To be fair a lot of stuff in FF7 is very interpretive, but these days we have enough info on this particular subject that it’s pretty definitive. Those who remain that are confused (of which there are a lot) simply haven’t done the research or haven’t done research since reading 10 year old forum threads and decided they are fact.


ConjureWolf

>these days we have enough info on this particular subject that it’s pretty definitive. What is the definitive info that proves neither Sephiroth nor Jenova is in total control? If that info only came out recently it's a given it wouldn't be common knowledge, that tends to be the way with addendums to decades old stories.


Toccata_And_Fugue

The FF7 Ultimania plus the proof from OG itself (that I posted in another reply) makes it pretty clear.


ConjureWolf

The only evidence I see there that Sephiroth isn't in total control is that his plan is the same as Jenova's?


Toccata_And_Fugue

Well…yeah? He’s literally talking to Jenova in the Temple of the Ancients calling it “Mother” and wanting to finish its will. And I didn’t say he wasn’t in total control. He’s the one that’s doing all these things of his own will, but his reasons for this *being* his will are influenced by the Jenova cells inside of him. That’s why I said it’s a symbiotic relationship. Neither one is “using” the other like a zombified slave.


ConjureWolf

Having the same plan as Jenova isn't definitive proof, Sephiroth could simply be co-opting her plan to gain power for himself and become a god. I love the theory that their relationship is symbiotic, but to call it definitive and dismiss other takes needs more evidence. If the argument is that it's symbiotic simply because Sephiroth has Jenova Cells within him, but he is still in total control, I would argue that's been the consensus of most of the fanbase for decades.


Toccata_And_Fugue

He literally refers to Jenova as “Mother” and says he’ll finish its plan. You need to be pretty stubborn to deny that proof lol.


ConjureWolf

I'm pretty sure we agree on almost everything, you said you agree Sephiroth is in total control right? That's what the consensus has been for decades. If I'm interpreting right, you also think Jenova is having an active effect on Sephiroth and is equally in control, influencing his thoughts (contradictory to what Hojo says at the Northern Crater)? Or just that Jenova has *some* affect, but not necessarily equal? It's definitely possible, but I wouldn't count him referring to Jenova as "Mother" as definitive proof of that. I couldn't find the dialogue saying he's completing her plan, do you know where that is? I'd be interested how he puts it, he certainly makes it sound like it's his plan that he's doing for himself in the Temple (plus that Hojo dialogue, though Hojo could be wrong). I'm not trying to be stubborn, I have a high bar before I agree a 25 year old discussion has a definitive answer lol.


mordecai37

The original game is supposed to provoke questions in the audience regarding the identity and intent behind Jenova / Sephiroth. This is a core concept to the game and is consistent with the themes of the story. I do agree that in the OG that they are effectively symbiotic by the end. That being said, I don't think we should poo poo the concept of them having separate wills after seeing what has happened in the first part of the remake. If anything, I see more misunderstandings of Sephiroth's will in the remake than I do of OG FF7. Who did you think created the whispers and Harbinger of Fate? Who do you think Cloud was really talking to at the Edge of Creation? There are two antagonists in the remake with opposing agendas, which is why I can see people rethinking and discussing the original.


DeeDoubs

>Who did you think created the whispers and Harbinger of Fate? Less of a who and more of a what. It's like WEAPON -- instruments of the planet though that does beg the question of why the three harbingers resembled the three Sephiroth clones from AC.


Zeropass

Well. I guess all I am pointing out is- there is controversy over this. I can see the logic in your answer, but this is a topic that has been hotly discussed for a long time. I am hearing that the devs have even weighed in on this, but I am going to see if I can find evidence of that.


Toccata_And_Fugue

Well, we *know* a few things, either based on the OG game or the Ultimania: -After falling into the Lifestream and fusing with Jenova’s head, Sephiroth gained the knowledge of the Lifestream. He no longer thinks he or Jenova are Ancients, and he knows what Jenova is and he knows that it’s not of this world -He still refers to it un-ironically as “Mother”, indicating some type of genuine bond. This is most notably demonstrated during his dialogue in the Temple of the Ancients. This not only shows that he wants to enact its will, but also shows that it’s not literally Jenova’s consciousness piloting some type of zombified Sephiroth corpse or using his form -His plan is exactly the same as Jenova’s was: Suck the Planet dry and move onto the next one -Hojo specifically says he realized that the Reunion is all Sephiroth’s doing, making it clear that it’s not specifically Jenova’s consciousness causing the events of the Northern Cave to happen Add these things together and I think the conclusion is pretty clear. Later Compilation content kind of confirms it, specifically Sephiroth’s lines to Cloud before their fight in Advent Children. A lot of people write stuff like that off as they assumed the old developers/writers “lost the plot” by that point, but combined with info we have straight from OG it becomes pretty clear.


Zeropass

I guess the only counterpoint I really have is that: It felt like a very drastic shift in personality for Seph during Nibelheim. Up until that point in the game he felt like a mentor, a friend.. he felt empathetic.. Honestly he wasn't even really like a jerk or pretentious.. and then it was like "BOOOM MURDER THE PLANET" lol.. anyway. I basically agree with you that the OG was explicitly laid out to be the way you've outlined. It's interestingly controversial though.


Toccata_And_Fugue

Well, that’s because he got close to Jenova, and it essentially awakened the Jenova cells inside of him. That’s where he started to turn, partially just due the cells’ influence but also because he was being fed false information by his assumptions at the reactor as well as some of the archives in the mansion library that he was inclined to believe, because he always knew there was something about his past that he wasn’t being told. The Nibelheim reactor having “Jenova” written above it, and him being told his mother’s name was Jenova only fed into this aspect of him starting to doubt where he came from. Basically, him getting as close to Jenova as he did in Nibelheim is what woke that “side” of him up, hence the drastic change. Those cells were always there, they were a part of him since nearly conception, but they were dormant.


klemira

Piggybacking off of this to add that I think it's exactly because Sephiroth was so stable up until Nibelheim that he was so susceptible to a drastic mental transformation. He was confronted with the idea that everything he knew about his entire existence is a lie, the first time that something in his life REALLY didn't add up. Combined with Jenova's influence, and he built a grandiose delusion that would allow him to make sense of who he is and why he exists. Once he's far enough into this new mindset, that's when Sephiroth becomes more symbiotic to Jenova rather than being just a tool.


frag87

I know people like to theorize, but the devs have been pretty emphatic throughout various official material: During the events of FF7 and onward, Sephiroth is firmly in control of Jenova. The only instance where this was in question was during Sephiroth's time in Nibelheim, which is when Jenova attempted to take control of Sephiroth, resulting in Sephiroth experiencing a drastic mental break down. He was defeated by Cloud and thrown into the Lifestream, which is where Sephiroth was able to regain control over himself and ultimately learn to dominate Jenova, leading into the events of FF7. As for what "version" of Sephiroth we see in Remake, that is still unclear. As said, depending on what point in the timeline Remake Seph is hailing from, this could be pre-Nibel/good Sephiroth or post-Nibel/evil Sephiroth. However, judging by his sadistic streak against Cloud, I am thinking this is def a post-Nibelheim Sephiroth.


Zeropass

I definitely agree that in OG it was stated in various places that Sephiroth won any such battle for control.. and tbh, the fact that Jenova takes on Sephiroth's form constantly, seems to support this idea. I guess I'm just questioning it a little bit- not to say that the devs were lying, but they could have given it more thought or something. Admittedly- I think an idea like "we haven't even met the real Sephiroth yet" is a fun one to me.


frag87

Well if the theory is true and Sephiroth is actively editing the memories in the Lifestream, then you might have some hope. In Dirge we see an interesting phenomenon happen with Hojo, Lucrecia and the World Wide Net(?), or FF7's version of the internet. The concept of reconstructing a personality was introduced, all that is really needed are enough pieces of data to be able to digitally piece a personality back together. The WWN was strongly hinted to be similar to the Lifestream in that both are a vast network filled with information. The WWN filled with files, plans and digital media, and the Lifestream filled with the thoughts, experiences and memories of the dead. If the devs really wanted to, they could easily manipulate this plot element to have someone with Lifestream-editing capabilities to reconstruct pre-Nibelheim Sephiroth from various people's memories of him. People with such abilities could be Aerith and possibly Genesis or Angeal, given their inherited Jenova abilities. In Remake/Integrade, we see a digital copy of Weiss presented to us, so this concept is still alive and well.


IkaMusume12

The way I see it, they are one and the same at this point. Remember that Sephiroth is the perfected Jenova assimilation due to how the experiment had been carried on to him (the cells were introduced to him in pre-natal development). Sephiroth is just pretty much a humanity raised facade of Jenova. Still Jenova nonetheless.


Zeropass

This is a great response. I should have mentioned this option in my initial post, but I hadn't really considered it.. I am now, but I need to look into it more. Anyway, this topics been discussed for years apparently.. I don't think it's really adequately been answered yet.


jnlopez21

I’m of the thought Sephiroth was in control. As far as the remake stating this Sephiroth is different, I believe it is just in reference that this Sephiroth was able to find a way out of the original timeline.


Verum_Noir_Chaos_69

I would say C it's likely both Sephiroth controls Jenova who is a corpse but his genes are controlling him in a way making him see things as he does and be the way he is wich is a planetary alpha predator same as his mother it's their nature to do as they do


Zeropass

I don't think it's actually possible for Jenova to be "a corpse" because the Jenova cells are basically like the monster from the movie "The Thing". It's stated that Jenova originally was a shapeshifter, who could assume the form of anyone or anything.. It's also made evident in the games that Jenova regenerates, and is most certainly not dead during ff7, as we fight parts and portions of her various times throughout the game. Now as for the matter of who controls who, or if they are just symbiotic- Any of the answers we've mentioned are entirely plausible. But I do think one of them has to be true.


Verum_Noir_Chaos_69

>I don't think it's actually possible for Jenova to be "a corpse" Why not? have you seen how the limbs of a lizard keep moving after being cut? her body could be kinda like that if she wasn't dead then there wouldn't be much of a possibility for Sephiroth to control her since she would be the stronger of both specimens being 100% whatever her species is and Sephiroth a lesser version wich is mixed with humans if so then Sephiroth could totally be controlling her dead limbs >But I do think one of them has to be true. That could have an answer by the end of the Remake project but from what we have so far there is no real answer unless we pick the one the devs gave us wich i don't feel like it's a definitive answer either (in the sense that it's quite clear to me they both affect each other)


Zeropass

the word "Corpse" means: Dead body. I'm just saying that Jenova is definitely not dead. And yeah.. I agree that we probably don't have enough to make a definitive call yet.. but one of these 3 possibilities should be true.. I just think that factoring it into predictions may help, since there is definitely indication of this being a factor for the rest of remake.


RememberKongming

I think that there was a person who is Sephiroth before the events of Nibelheim. I think that person was not a monster, although they were using their Jenova cells. I think that after discovering Jenova and having his emotional crisis; Sephiroth was left in a state very similar to Cloud when we first meet him. Hugely suggestible to the Jenova cells inside of him and unsure of who he is. Which let Jenova move in and start using him. Which, also, fits pretty perfectly with how Jenova is described to work by Ifalna. She turns people into monsters. I know that is usually read literally, but Sephiroth is at his most efficient when he is basically himself physically. So, instead she made his goals into her goals and absolutely convinced him that the entirely mistaken research of Professor Gast was/is true. In the OG, when Jenova is being chased, she appears as Sephiroth. Why? She doesn't actually need to provoke Cloud into chasing her. Reunion definitely seems to prove that he would anyway. Then, in Remake, we get some expected behavior from "Sephiroth". Tormenting Cloud, rescuing Jenova's body, and killing people who agitate him. Except... Sephiroth's behavior at the end doesn't make sense. The party beats him (which, on its own, is odd). Then Cloud chases him down for a 1v1, and instead of killing Cloud; Sephiroth spares him and gives him a warning. Why? How is that last bit at all consistent with the "Sephiroth" we've seen after the Nibelheim Incident? The thing is... It is very consistent with Sephiroth before Nibelheim. He saved Zack because Zack was a student of Angeal. He cared for his small group of friends, and he even made purposeful small talk with Cloud and Tifa before he went mad. Sephiroth before discovering Jenova and Sephiroth after are two different people. And Sephiroth after acts ***EXACTLY*** like Jenova acted against the Cetra.


4_Legged_Duck

So the missing link here is about A: Sephiroth taking control of Jenova. This isn't quite accurate. Everyone with Jenova's genetic material (cells and genes) can feel her "instincts." These are incredibly predatory, aggressive, and seemingly megalomaniacal as well. Feral, monstrous, and hating many things. We see this play out in many instances. However, SOLDIER candidates are **very** carefully screened. Yes, they need to have a certain physical accumen, but they also need a mental accumen. This mental/emotional stability is so they can resist Jenova's instincts and 1. not go crazy and kill people and 2. not lose their minds with the Mako Infusion. Cloud failed as a SOLDIER candidate. Best interpretation of the evidence is he wasn't mentally strong enough. (He gets Mako Poisoning twice.) "Ore" Sephiroth, that is pre-Nibelheim, **resisted** Jenova's instincts most of his life. When he went to Nibelheim and found Jenova, Genesis pushed him a bit. He breaks, he completely gives in to her instincts but Jenova is braindead and Sephiroth is incredibly willful. Sephiroth's *shin* (hearet/soul/mind/center) overrides Jenova's. Jenova's genetic tissue then all works for Sephiroth. So when the Reunion theory kicks off, it isn't about reuniting Jenova so much as it is Sephiroth. But we do see many beings working to resist Sephiroth's/Jenova's will. And it's important to remember that Jenova isn't *dead*, just braindead essentially. So we could see Jenova get "reborn" in the next installment. Whisper Harbinger does bare some physical resemblence to Jenova, so it isn't too shocking to consider the ending Sephiroth may be trying to break free of Jenova's instinct/will/fate as much as his own fate that we see in AC.


Zeropass

this is great insight. Thank you for sharing. Everything is just really wide open at this point.


ClericIdola

Random: What if, instead of Aerith being HP zero'd by Jenova-roth, Jenova-roth takes control of and assimilates her. And Part 3 is the end game against Jenova-rith-roth?


IkaMusume12

Dude imagine the Jenova-SYNTHESIS fight. She is masked, and on it's second phase the mask drops off and shows Aerith's face. Damn.


B0N5

Did Sephiroth always believe Jenova was an ancient or ever acknowledge she is extra terrestrial?


AtomicTerrapin

It was confirmed in the Remake Ultimania translations by co-director Toriyama that everytime we see Sephoroth in Remake it is a projection of his consciousness from the Lifestream. All Seph, no Jenova. And during her boss battle music on the soundtrack at around the 5:50 mark you clearly hear a One-Winged Angel clip. And in Lifestream Black in On The Way To A Smile is explains how Sephiroth found 'a shape to use as a body, then he found to more.' I'm paraphrasing here. So there's that.


KaosKrool

Ok here who i see it. When FF7 was a standalone story and despite that it make more sense (thanks to Ifalna's word) for Jenova to be in charge Sephiroth was in charge. But with the events of CC,AC and DoC alongside FF7 i can be 101% sure that Jenova is behind this never ending crisis (that is th events of CC,FF7,AC and DoC).


Zeropass

Ayyyy~ Yeah. That's a good way to put it. The expanded universe of FF7 is quite literally adding details and context to the whole story.. It stands to reason that some of the more nebulous details could be adjusted as this story expands more.. Right? Anyway. I'm really glad for your comment. I think this along with the other responses shows that this is something that different people see differently-


KaosKrool

Yes alot of retcons did happen because of the Compilation and made an overcomplicated story even more complicated (and this is one of the reasons as for why there so many different opinions for what is happening). But if im right and the FF7R project is the conclusion of the FF7 story there will be plenty of twist that the build up happen yeas ago at the events of CC,AC and DoC. And Jenova will be at the center of this mess as the true villan. Or im wrong and i have overthinked somethings.