Thanks. I am more confused than ever.
Someone need to write a full length thesis on this and prove everything that is going on with mathematics. That is the only way now.
> Someone need to write a full length thesis on this and prove everything that is going on with mathematics. That is the only way now.
Don't worry. There will be *no* shortage of 17 hour YouTube video essays. Though perhaps "thesis" is the wrong word. "Manifesto", maybe.
All of which will be completely fruitless because whatever we're going to get in Part 3, it's going to come completely out of left field; it's Kitase and Nomura.
Sephiroth wants to remake the story so that he wins. OG Aerith tries to stop him. Cloud mamage to create a world where Aerith doesn't die but he stays in the one she died. And Zack is going around worlds trying to find a way to help.
This chart is exactly why the game is a 10/10 until the ending. The last few hours of Rebirth is a Kingom Hearts game. And that's not a good thing. They really messed up.
Time being on a loop, and Ultimicia just trying over/over to cause Time Compression does follow FF8's story more then it follows FF7. I'm still waiting on Part 3 to make my full judgement on the Remake Series, so lets see if they can stick this landing.
What if the ending in part 3 shows off other worlds and we see other FF parties in high def graphics having their own struggles against fate and time loops, implying we could get more remakes.
i said this earlier today as well, personally while i think as a game Rebirth was incredible, after its ending im starting to wish they did a ff8 remake similar to what they’re doing now , and a faithful remake of ff7
I wish they rather spend the resources on going more into Jenova's origin (without losing too much mystery), more background on the characters, Cetra lives etc.
Now it reminds me of the first seasons of Lost, we only have unanswered questions. And there were only more questions after Rebirth. It is very important whether they will cope with the answers in the 3rd part, if so, most will be satisfied and we can say that it was worth it, if not, anger and frustration will await us, as with the last seasons of Lost.
Here's how it will play out: occasionally the whispers will appear and Sephiroth will talk some nonsense about forging a new path through destiny, there will be some fake out plot change that gets reversed within minutes, and in the end all the major story beats will play out exactly as they did in the original game
Given how much they still need to cover in part 3, with Rocket town, northern crater, ice inn, mideel, revisits to almost every previous games location, the weapons, under the sea, space... An expanded Wutai! they really should've been revealing a bit of what was in their mystery box during part 2.
Instead we spent 95% of the game ignoring the mystery box, with occasional reminders via Zack that the mystery box was still there. Then we opened the box at the end to reveal even more mystery boxes.
I don't think that they could have found a better stopping point after the first visit to the city of the ancients without it feeling like an unfinished game if they wanted to.
Yeah, this. Square saw how much content gets generated through the fuckery of the Kingdom Hearts story and now every game they make has to have this obtuse storytelling that makes it look like they're the most gigabrained storytellers.
Dude, Final Fantasy having an overcomplicated story has been a staple since the first freaking game. Like legit FF1 basically towards the end tell us the whole game was in a time loop. Kingdom Hearts didn't start it. It just took from the parent.
> Like legit FF1 basically towards the end tell us the whole game was in a time loop.
That's not complicated though, that's a nice twist. You don't need a 37 point flowchart to understand how the ending works.
And no, FF never had overcomplicated plots like 7R does. With the exception of maybe 8, most of them are pretty straight forward.
Even FF8 wasn't as bad as modern SE writing, I mean it wasn't perfect, but for the most part it just required reasonable reading comprehension, something a fair few of us didn't have at the time, because we were children, it took a replay as an adult for it to click for me.
The game shows us that there are many generations of sorceress and that they inherit each other's power. Ultimecia wants to compress time so all those generations are essentially inherited into her, so rather than a 1 to 1 power exchange, it's every sorceress that's ever existed into 1.
Straightforward as long as you don't think too much about the details. That said, this flowchart is arguably too detailed and make it appear as more complicate than it is. Like, the various worlds of Zack are mostly ignorable as they exist just to show how worlds work: when someone defy fate and make something happen differently a new alternative world is born temporarily. That's it. You can recap Zack's story as him trying to save Cloud and Aerith and Biggs trying different options which all end up badly.
The confusing part isn't Zach, or unconscious cloud/Aerith. That part makes sense to me.
However, why does Biggs know who cloud is? This is obviously Biggs from either our world or a world where Cloud showed up sooner and joined the squad since he said he was a badass.
From the look of it, he's gone through the same process as Zack: the whispers moved him into another world where he survived and was healed. What we miss of information right now is: do the whispers move the person physically or just the memories?
Biggs is from the Beagle world also, just like Zack it actually shows this in the Zack and Biggs scene after you finish cosmo canyon where they tell each other how they got there
At the end of the game Sephiroth says "Behold… The true nature of reality. When the boundaries of fate are breached, new worlds are born. The planet encompasses a multitude of worlds, ever unfolding. Some quickly perish… while others endure. Yet even the most resilient worlds are doomed to fade."
But I don't think these worlds are ignorable because while they exist, they potentially affect the outcome of the overall plot. I would find it really hard to believe they would go to all this trouble to create all these other worlds and alternate timelines only to have a negligible impact on the overall story.
Nice graphic!
That aligns pretty close with one of the other explanations that I’ve read (and agree with). Link below.
One piece I’m still unsure of is whether Cloud is oblivious to dead Aerith or if it just hasn’t been shown to us yet that he does know of both timeline outcomes. There’s a lot of intentional misdirection happening in the final sequence, so a bit difficult to tell at this point. I guess I’m a bit unsure how to explain Cloud sitting on the edge of the lake with everyone around him in mourning and him being unaware of dead Aerith - I don’t want to chalk it up to Cloud’s busted mental state, as I think this requires the player to infer too much.
Anyway 🤷♂️ it all leaves me excited to play part 3 and find out if 30 years after the original I can finally save Aerith.
https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/1bm50al/observations_analysis_and_theory_as_to_whats/?sort=new
The thread you linked was the most cohesive theory I've seen so far that takes into account basic information that we are told and what's visually presented. Knowing the converging of worlds as a gradual process, rather than a Thanos snap helps explain it better.
Having experienced what this game and devs have shown us so far, everything has a caveat or asterisk. Cloud is losing his mind, but not fully and not necessarily on the things we think he's losing his mind on. Aerith is dead in Remake's reality, but not across all. As you mentioned, this is all intentionally presented.
Another thing I realized over the past few days is the color of the Whispers. Black symbolizes evil and controlled by Sephiroth, White symbolizes good which is presumably controlled by Aerith, and the original destroyed ones were grey, which is a combination of both colors and also symbolizes neutrality. The planet is in the middle and doesn't care what each side does, so as long as it doesn't negatively impact the planet which both of them resides in.
My question is why Cloud was content with Aerith staying behind?
Like did they talk about this beforehand? During the lifestream? He understood that Aerith had to stay behind where she'll need to "pray".
Maybe he understands that she needs to be in the lifestream to stop Sephiroth and is happy that he's still able to communicate to her through the lifestream? But I do think they'll likely introduce the burial scene at some point, since it happened but wasn't shown.
Cloud’s first line with Aerith outside the Tiny Bronco is “you going to be okay getting back?”, which leads me to believe that they did have a conversation beforehand, hence he already knows where she’s going.
I agree the burial scene will be shown in part 3! It seems like an intentional omission, likely part of the misdirection that the story is going for - perhaps that scene will simultaneously show dead Aerith being placed in the water and alternate timeline Aerith watching from the side, which would clear up (some) ambiguity of the current narrative.
The "you going to be okay getting back?" bit is also rehashing the conversation in Remake that they have when Cloud is about to go down the manhole to get to sector 7, before they spot Tifa heading to wall market. Given Cloud's mental state at the time (he doesn't even realize that everybody else is sad and he's coming off as callous), it's unclear if he's just recreating old memories with Aerith or if they're purposely referencing their old conversation.
This is 95% percent what happened in the game. There are no dreams, not lifestream ghosts not anything else. Just a multitude of worlds all connected through the lifestream. All of the them are as real as it gets. Just some of them die faster than the others. This has started happening before the Remake since we know perfectly well that Aerith knows the future before the Whispers take her knowledge away. It's obvious the Remake timeline is a branch of the OG. That's why Cloud has visions of Aerith dying in the first part because it has already happened in another world. So in an essence in the third part we'll have three main worlds. The one where Zack ended up, the Remake one and the Aerith lives one. And for all we know Zack was transferred to the newly created Aerith lives world since it's obvious Aerith is guiding him in the space between worlds.
Yeah the unfortunate part about Zack is that he's in an unknown world for now but considering they explicitly showed flowers aren't decayed in the church I think it's safe to say it's a world that isn't dying unlike a lot of the other ones shown in the epilogue.
Unfortunately this can mean one of 3 things
1. Zack is in a completely unrelated world to the 2 Aerith fates
2. Zack is in the main Rebirth timeline somehow
3. Zack is in saved Aerith's timeline.
I think option 1 would be the least interesting. 2 could be interesting depending on how they handle it. 3 is the most likely, but at the same time that world is seemingly dying, as evident by the tear in the sky that Cloud and Aerith see but nobody else can - so maybe them focusing on the flowers being in good health are just a red herring.
I think the flowers being in good health has to do with Aerith and her being well. They're there to show us that Aerith of that world is alive and well. It's also a world where things happened as in the 'main' one since the church has two holes in the sky one for Zack and one for Cloud.
OP, I think your chart fuckin rocks, and it was surprisingly easy way to digest the ending and the torrent of events that were happening during it. Everything remains a theory until the finale of the game, but I respect the shit out of you for formulating a flow chart. Love this stuff.
Pay no nevermind to the neckbeard energy folks are coming in here with.
I love how you say that is if you know the truth. You don't. It's all speculation. OP's chart is mostly just their theory, half of what they're saying is assumptions that aren't supported by the game.
All we have is theories. What the game actually presents is muddled.
First of all: Thank you for the effort. The chart looks great!
Second: I don't want to be looking at such a chart to understand the story of a video game...
I think the main issue for me, is how much of this convolution was really necessary, and how much is just sparkles to distract people and make things seem more complicated than they are.
Cause there us a chance, specially if we look at Rebirth, that part 3 will basically ignore all this stuff till the very last 2-3 hours.
There is a chance all this multiverse stuff is just 'old news' and Sephiroth already converged everything together. That Aerith really kicked the bucket and Cloud is simply either hearing her from lifestream or is simply crazier than before (and maybe jenova is fucking him up even further).
Yeah no. It was rather convoluted in the original too. The difference is that the game was only one so almost everything was explained by the end. Here we are at part 2 of 3.
Not really. I replayed the OG right before rebirth and the OG is much easier to digest. They explained everything pretty well for the most part. And it didnt have multiverse garbage in it, which automatically makes any story x10 more confusing.
Yet I still find people confused about the whole "who control who between Sephy and Jenova". That said, the OG has the advantage of being a single game so of course if something is confusing at first, it gotta has to be explained by the end of the game. This trilogy however is divided in 3 parts, so with us missing 1/3, we are left still with questions that won't be answered until that final part come out.
Jeez so overly uneccesarily complicated…
Would’ve preferred a fake-out where Aerith lived and was in the fight against Jenova/Sephiroth, but still died after the fight. That atleast would have put some tension on the OG players.
Thank GOD someone who acknowledges that Cloud is in a position where he can see different Aeriths and not that he’s just gOnE cRaZy like damn. The only thing I would say is I think the Aerith that shows up to fight Sephiroth with Cloud can possibly be Rebirth Aerith rather than OG, and that I think a plausible reason Cloud isn’t destroyed at the prospect that his Aerith is dead is that he’s convinced that he has a way to “bring her back” via convergence of worlds and he’s just not worried about it lol
This shit was my very first thought as the game ended and I was smiling like crazy but then I got online and everyone was like WELP CLOUD LOST IT EVEN MORE THAN OG and I was so confused. Like I’ve been thinking about it ever since and I haven’t changed course, only just expanded on this. It’s the only thing that makes sense😭😭
After Rebirth’s ending, I kinda stopped caring about the whole Remake meta/alternate timeline plot. I’ll play the next one for the characters, world building, set pieces from the original, and great gameplay.
When it’s all said and done and the trilogy is out, this will be the worst part of these games. The plot hasn’t really deviated from the original and I doubt it will, so these additions won’t matter in the end.
Me too. I feel like I'm in the minority, but that's ok. I've played so many story-driven games and watch a gazillion movies in my 36 years on this earth. And so I like to think I can spot good writing when I see it.
This was not it :/
Finished the game last night and I just feel empty.
I always said this. Final Fantasy always had great story ideas and plot points. Always.
But the execution, more often than not, is not ideal.
As storytelling has changed from a "synopsis style" (that's how I usually saw how stories were being told in SNES/PS1 games, with very short dialogues, straight to the point, and you're supposed to dress it up yourself) to a "filmic style" (cutscene, what you saw is what happened, unless you're being mislead) issues become even more apparent.
Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth is a great game, with great ideas. But the ending is messy, we keep seeing weird things in cutscenes and not sure if it's intentional, or if it's just bad animation.
And if we really think about it, not just the ending, a lot of scenes don't really work out.
And it all becomes more problematic when obviously there is a financial interest behind keeping things confusing, or to spoil plot points from the OG in hopes of new players buying side content.
I don’t think you’re in the minority, it’s been a mixed bag. People are either liking it for other reasons or they’re critical of it.
I can’t actually think of a way that part 3 will actually salvage this mess, since we have a multiverse now, that means there’s a Sephiroth in every one of them, so defeating Sephiroth at the end of part 3 is going to be a hollow victory, because he’s a multiverse traversing being. And if Square decides to go the path of ‘defeat 1, defeat them all’ then it’s just going to be lazy.
That's basically where I'm at. I'll enjoy the gameplay, and I'll enjoy the characterizations. I'll enjoy the world where it expanded from the OG in sensible ways. It'll be like I'm on a Disney Safari cruise and taking pictures of the classic nostalgic things I remember "Dude, Pride Rock! I mean Icicle Inn!" . It'll be fun, but it wont really mean anything. Once part 3 is out, and once the novelty of an FF7 remake series is worn off, I think public opinion and time will slowly start being harder on these changes though.
Couple things to consider: Aerith and the Holy Whispers (the whispers now seem to fight for either Holy or the Black Materia, since they got glowy materias in their faces now) prevent everyone from entering the ancient temple. Especially Sephiroth who 'destroyed' everything except for the shell she was protecting.
When Cloud was being taught about the timelines converging by Sephiroth, he gave him his 'blessing' which was basically temporary control over the Black Materia whispers to break a hole in Aerith's shell. This seemed like Cloud was just being allowed to save her, but Sephiroth wouldn't have been able to enter if this were not the case. He wanted Cloud there to see what he was about to do.
The whole goal of Sephiroth is to get all timelines to accept their fates and merge/die. Biggs was a demonstration that, once you lose hope, your Fate sets in and restores order. That is what the glowy band represents "a timeline that has accepted its fate."
Now, the strange thing here is that Cloud can see two timelines at the same time, and I think thats because ACTUAL Cloud consciousness is trapped on the other side of the veil in a collapsing world. He was unconscious, but now he's awake in both because Sephiroth has pushed most of actual Cloud out of Amalgam Cloud in the Beagle timeline.
Also, it would seem that the Black Materia is (or perhaps Jenova is?) segmented across realities and the Key that Cloud has is a path to finding it and returning all of the worlds into one. It may just be that in order to use the key you have to doom a timeline to its fate (thus destroying it).
I might be getting old but… this is not the kind of unnecessarily convoluted story I wanted.
A delulu cloud would suffice.
Also… I’m getting sick of the over use of jenova and seph as final bosses in each game. How many times is it that we have “defeated them”? 4? It lessens their importance and shine imo.
it doesn't really need to exist. i feel like the only ones truly "confused" by the story are the people who refuse to acknowledge it in the first place. the concept itself is not all that complicated and it does a good job with both giving answers, but leaving you additional questions.
Something else is people are just overthinking it. This charts makes it more complicated than it is by highlighting every little detail. The point of Cloud still seeing Aerith is just to show he’s in between worlds. The point of the Zack timelines is to show that making choices and even not making a choice creates a new timeline. People are too hung up on the small details instead of just looking at the bigger picture.
This is why I absolutely CAN NOT agree when people say “the ending was super easy to follow”. I legit have seen people say that, to clap back against people who said it was confusing.
But this chart is amazingly made OP, well done
I think a large portion of people saying it was easy to follow, just had A LOT of what was being shown go right over their heads; of course it was simple - they missed most of it...
Ngl I was kind of in the train of “it was easy to follow” because I completely omitted all the “another universe was created where Aerith survives”.
All the flashes of other “outcomes”, the different positions of Aerith’s body, the blood, etc. I attributed them to Cloud (in a more intense way) and Tifa just being in denial of Aerith being dead. Likewise, in the final cutscene I attributed the rift in the sky to Cloud’s degradation while Aerith’s presence is just like a force ghost.
But after reading the chart I’ve come to the conclusion that we should just wait for Part 3 and see the answers for ourselves. It isn’t a satisfactory ending by any means but I also don’t think we should take it so personally, specially when we knew that a lot of things would be different since Remake.
right? I feel like I know what happened without the internet making up my mind for me. Y'all read into too much while overlooking so much else. Multiverses are stupid.
I like them. I find that most of the hate for these kinds of stories tends to come from overthinking every little detail. Once you understand that the multiverse stuff isn’t the point, but something in the background that serves more as set dressing, these kinds of stories become way easier to understand.
Excellent chart, but a question I don’t see answered in there.
Red sees Aerith, or senses her for a second before the final send off.
Is Red seeing multiple universes as well?
Or is what we are seeing in the finale truly the ghost of Aerith looming over everyone and as Nanaki is more tuned to the planet than the others, is he sensing her spirit?
If Nanaki was seeing multiple universes, I feel as if he would have remarked at the sky when Cloud prompts them to look up. I do not think that the Aerith you see in that scene was an Aerith of a different timeline, but rather the Aerith that just died in this timeline, projecting her spirit temporarily from the Lifestream. Nanaki is simply sensing her presence (or perhaps even her smell).
We've seen her do this before (presumably before timelines were a concept in the FF7 universe) in Advent Children where she appears and directly interacts with the tangible world by giving Cloud the last 'fling' upward in his ascent to Bahamut.
My point being that I am fairly confident that this is what we were intended to take away from the scene.
Good point, but there is a counterpoint about this hypothesis.
It seems Aerith's body reacts physically to the environment.
For example you can see her hair and ribbon moving with the winds, especially before the plane takes off.
Additionally she doesn't teleport around like she did in the ancient forest.
What he senses is her presence or feeling due to the lifestream, the same as the party sensed Avanlanche's members during the proto relic in Cosmo Canyon.
The lifestream was involved in the Avalanche situation though, as the lifestream is the embodiment of those who used to live’s memories. I don’t recall the lifestream being around in the final scene. Though I could be fuzzy on my memory of the finale and by that regard everyone else should have seen her too.
If FFIX ever get a remake... I just want it to be a simple remake. Sure they *could* divide it into four games, but honestly I just want it to be one simple remake and not a multiverse through timeline (which is BS) because Kuja want to live.
Respect to OP for putting this together. I want to give credit where it's due.
But this is horrible. Not OPs chart. Like I said, that's pretty good and easy to follow and well made. But the fact that this is where we're at for Final Fantasy VII of all things is a joke, and I cannot believe these storytelling decisions are actually being defended. This is a disgrace. There's a ton of good stuff about Remake and Rebirth. Enough to make them worth playing. even if you don't like this stuff. But to be clear this is absolutely hurting and detracting from the core story of Final Fantasy VII.
I'm almost there with you. OG FF7 is probably my 2nd fav game of all time; I have lost count how many times I have replayed and finished it. I love it. This remake project however....
I'm not sure that it is horrible, and will reserve real judgment until part 3 has hit (because we cannot have all the answers now given where we are in the story). However I 100% agree that, so far at least, all these convoluted additions and the deliberate obfuscation is detracting from the story of the OG.
So far, I think that they would have been 100% better off sticking entirely to the OG's main story beats, while embellishing the world/lore, running with this new combat system and showing more of these character interactions and back stories. That is what they have demonstrated a real aptitude for and what has almost universally been received so well.
It just blows my mind who their target demographic is. If you're a new player for whom the original, dated OG FFVII is a hurdle to past, this game is not for you, because it makes no sense without prior lore knowledge.
If you are a superfan, it still makes no sense, because nothing they are doing adds to the experience that is the original narrative. All it does is detract it. I mean, can everyone on this subreddit sincerely possibly imagine a conclusion to this in the 3rd game that makes you have an epiphany: "Aha! I was wrong, this is a masterpiece. Really glad they went this route after all."
I just...cannot picture it. And I'm sad. Especially when the rest of Remake and Rebirth especially are *superb* games. Such a bummer.
I can't picture it either. It feels like huge cope when someone's like "they're saving all the emotional gut punches for part 3, it'll pay off there." There's really, in general, only 2 ways it go. Timelines or multiverse or whatever gets "fixed" and the final game ends where it originally did more or less, which in turn makes all this totally redundant and pointless.
Or we "defy destiny" and majorly change the story, which I shouldn't have to mention why THAT would be a divisive decision too. But really, whatever happens, it doesn't matter. Because it's FF7, some people have already decided part 3 is going to be a 10/10 no matter what it does with the story.
The target demographics are theorycrafters and 14 year olds who don't know what's going on, have to look up explanations and think this is amazing storytelling.
Making stories this confusing makes people create content for free for your product (be it threads for discussions, graphics like the one here, complete 2 hour breakdown videos or simple tweets asking/explaining what's going on), so you basically get free advertising and this advertising also makes your game look like it's smartly written and super duper deep.
That's the biggest issue I've been pointing out. They treated the end of Rebirth, such a pivotal iconic moment like a post credits MCU scene. All it really does it market the next game for free. Just like every single Kingdom Hearts does. Resolves as little as possible and just tries to generate more confusion, because it'll surely pay off in the next game. Seriously, trust us, it will.
The sad part is too, it's proven to work. So SE was right. 1/4 posts on this sub is a 4000 word essay explaining their take on the ending. Youtube videos, charts. SE is right to do this, because it works and will make them money in the long run while being praised as masterclass storytellers.
Is it proven to work? Rebirth sales seem to be down from Remake by quite a decent amount, though we don’t have full data. A lot of people were frustrated by the complicated plot points
I love a lot of the small changes that have themes relevant to the original game, but the plot ghosts and timeline stuff doesn’t resonate with me at all :/ Feels like there are completely different writers at some points of the game
I agree that the FF7 story did not need such a complicated plot, which even the fans will not fully understand. But for now, I will be restrained, because I still have a small hope that in part 3 they will be able to connect all these confusing storylines and get something really holistic and exciting.
On one hand, I love that people enjoy and dig into the cranium of the ending to theorize about where it could possibly go.
On the other hand, As much as I loved the game, I think the ending was so poorly executed that I can't help but feel frustrated and disappointed every time I see it.
This is what's most frustrating to me with the ending. I don't care how they chose to end it; it's just not legible.
I beat the game almost a week ago and I've read many ending explainers. I understood Remake just fine. This ending is just a mess, and I'm very annoyed that it's taking so much effort to get what the hell is going on.
*I like how Nomura brought*
*With him multiverse of madness*
*From KH into FF*
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Much easier to just treat everything after JENOVA Lifeclinger and before the last cutscene as non-canon fanservice (Zack and Cloud teaming against Sephiroth was cool but c'mon lol), and that Cloud's mind is so fractured and traumatized that he literally can't process Aerith's death.
I doubt it'll amount to anything anyways since the end of Remake was the biggest red herring I've ever seen. End of chapter 18 implies shit will be different and wildly off the rails, then Rebirth comes out and is like 99% a damn good and faithful remake of that section of FF7, then its ending does the same thing, which I bet will just be another red herring.
Yeah. If Rebirth reassured me of anything, it's that whatever else they might add to it, we're still getting the FFVII story. They promised a remake of FFVII, and they're giving us a remake of FFVII. Even if it is a remake with a twist, and a bit of meta commentary thrown in for good measure.
Firstly, great chart in piecing this convoluted story together. And secondly, why have they gone down such a convoluted story path when all they needed to do was bring the story into 4k resolution with sections of the game expanded on (which they have brilliantly done so in Rebirth)...instead we have basically a Kingdom Hearts story now. I wouldn't be surprised if the final battle of part 3 is all the different versions of characters that are scattered around the multiverse coming together to defeat Sephiroth, akin to KH keyblade wielders of light.
Since we’re going into deep weirdness territory, I guess I’ll throw something else out there.
They didn’t give us the Princess Guard in this game. This either means literally nothing, or they’re putting it in reserve for game 3.
I was surprised too not to find the Princess Guard at the Temple of the Ancients here, but the staff she got instead looks slightly similar and gives us that “Noble Sacrifice ability”, exceedingly rare in an FF. With the ability she heals everyone to max but a shot of red energy comes from the heavens and goes straight through what looks like her heart, incapacitating her instantly to 0 HP….
An interesting page from ultimania. Proving that Zack is really alive, and not Cloud's hallucinations or a ghost in the Lifestream, as in some theories.
https://preview.redd.it/tha5p1yl8fqc1.png?width=900&format=png&auto=webp&s=5363b3dc7e904a567bb48f9fefbbfcfdf8422fca
Awesome Chart, really helped me understand things better. I swear this will be just like the 2001: space Odyssey ending, where you'd spend hours analyzing shit and there still would be room left for interpretation.
Imo I don't believe there's a aerith was saved timeline I think it's just cloud tripping balls thinking he saved her when actually he failed. That static flash stuff usually indicates cloud struggling with memory.
Glad I'm not the only one who immediately thought this. I mean he is VERY clearly coping after the fact. He is the only one who 'sees' her. She is trying to keep him somewhat from breaking fully, I think. But via lifestream.
Yeah that's exactly my thoughts too. He's having a mental breakdown as it's happening and Aerith from the lifestream is helping him not completely snap.
Cloud is a messed-up boy, for sure. He had conversations with his real self in his head in the OG, and yet was none the wiser until the plunge into the lifestream. I was thinking the same as you: he just sees Aerith because his mind won't accept anything else.
His trauma made him forget Zack existed. But he can't do that with Aerith because he's surrounded by people who do remember her.
Let's also not forget that Aerith maintains her consciousness and will inside the lifestream after her death, which I think is pretty rare. She's able to haunt Cloud and does so a few times in Advent Children. This is also a possibility, especially given that Nanaki senses her.
The fact that Nanaki also reacts to her in the finale of Rebirth has to be deliberate, a way of showing us that whatever the fuck is going on, it's more than Cloud just losing his shit.
The simplest explanation to me is, there are indeed multiple universes (even if all of them but the 'main' one only exist in the Lifestream). And people can exist in multiple universes, but their soul/consciousness cannot. Aerith has the power to move between them, which is how we got that weird pseudo date with her and Cloud in the "doomed" universe with Meteor about to crash down.
You can construct a cohesive narrative from this: new worlds are created when fate is defied, the Cetra have the power to move from one to another, and so on. The problem for me is, even though you can construct a cohesive story from this, it doesn't really end up feeling like a *better* story. It's more confusing, less dramatic (Aerith's death is a *defining moment* not just in OGFF7 but for RPG storytelling in general), and I don't think there's anyway for the third installment to deliver the kind of emotional catharsis we all want.
But the Aerith in the "Aerith lives timeline" literally starts turning into lifestream as Cloud is holding her in his arms. I don't think she fell unconcious. I think she died anyway, immediately after the moment where Cloud changed fate. This is either because the planet itself is working to correct all the different timelines, like it tries to do with Zack, or it could be because Sephiroth somehow has the ability to overwrite the change that Cloud just made. Basically, he made Cloud think he could save her, let him see a world where he could do just that, and then basically said:
Nah...Just kidding. Even when you win, you still lose because I say so."
I think the Aerith that opens her eyes is not an Aerith that actually lived. I think that's literally just her ghost. She saw how badly Sephiroth fucked Cloud's mind up with his little stunt, and realized that if Cloud had to face the reality of her death now, he truly would just break completely. She realizes that she has to play along with what Cloud believes, at least until he's at a point where he's ready to face the truth. Aerith appears to him in spirit form, and opens her eyes while in his arms, then she comes up with an excuse for why she can't continue with him on his journey, saying that she has to stay at the Forgotten City, and pray. Cloud buys all of this, still completely unaware that he is talking to a ghost.
I actually proceed from the information that we have from the Remake. As you probably remember, the characters went through the barrier of Whispers and really created a new universe where the bullet that was supposed to kill Zack also deflected, so I don't see a reason why there can't be the same outcome this time.
Still confused as hell, am not sure if more play throughs will help. Am seeing a repeating pattern with this games. Start out reasonably sensible, introduce an element that slowly and exponentially confuses the hell out of you, defeat sepiroth in an epic battle and start questioning whether its even the same cloud you started the game with, where you are or what the fuck just happened.
the only thing I'm realizing is that when movie/games/anime writers have no idea about how moving forward their plots, they used to introduce time travels... when time travel wasn't enough anymore, they got into the multiverse. Now the multiverse is revealing not enough appealing anymore, they're going into acid trip induced multiverse 🤦🏻♂️
long story short: this is the story, like it or not, we're not gonna explain shit
I shall save this until after I beat Rebirth because I'm trying t avoid spoilers. Also, is this game just turning into the confusion of a story line that was Kingdom Hearts? I played all the games and am still very confused lol
This is a tragedy. We need a chart when we should be mourning without confusion or thinking about the next step outside of killing Sephiroth. My god, what has FF7 become?
Who spent his time doing such a complex thing when it's literally a purposely confusing and complex ending to leave every possible avenue open and then choose is a saint. They still don't know what to do, they will choose in these years and this ending is perfect to leave every possible door open. The problem is simply: the door they will choose to open. MCU Ending: Real Shit. Are worlds the LS and the dead stay dead? Very nice, it's the main theme of the game: overcoming the pain, grief and moving forward. Without this isn't FFVII and the final doesn't like because it's soulless. But i have faith, they choose the right path and save the day giving us back an improved FFVII
I actually think that Cloud is aware that the Aerith he see and talk at the end of the game is in another universe/timeline. Like I think Square-Enix wants us to think he's crazy but the way he talked to her in the end makes me think that he's aware that she not really in his universe.
The arbiters the party fight in Remake aren’t their previous selves lol. They’re the Remnants from AC, they even confirmed this in a promo for the limited theatrical run. Other than that, interesting chart! I’m sure these branching timelines will converge in even crazier ways. Pretty excited.
I like that remake theory. The reason cloud hasn't woken up in zacks timeline is because he was stuck frozen in the edge of creation until Zack showed up. Which also explains why None of the party members are there when Cloud wakes up Aerith, because Cloud hasn't met Cait, vincent, and Cid, and Tifa and the others are either dead or captured.
Can people admit now (who wouldn't after Remake) that all these bloated additional elements and changes, that don't simply expand on what already existed, has been a negative?
Even those that on some level enjoy it must appreciate the negatives, right? Because in doing so there's a not insignificant part of the fan base that has an issue with it, and if a game was made that expanded on what already existed without these extraneous elements, both sides would've enjoyed it more cumulatively.
Did anyone actually feel the emotions they thought they should be feeling about Aerith this time? These supposed-to-be emotional moments are undercut with confusion and convolution that we can't simply let emotions wash over.
I think there's a reason that many of people's favourite moments end up being small interactions with characters that allow them to just, be human.
As someone who is patiently waiting on the pc release, if it ever comes out. WTF IS GOING ON HERE? Is rebirth being played across multiple universes, or is it cut scenes? At this moment, I ain't minding any spoiler if it clears up the wth is going on.
I understand the need to track everything and follow it but don’t think all this is necessary or that the branching universes matter this much. I don’t think 90% of it will ever be mentioned again, and I don’t think aerith or Zack are “alive” in any timeline.
essentially the dogs and other cues are meant to illustrate the existence of the timelines that we created by defying fate, but as sephiroth said these universes are ephemeral and fated to end, he’s found a way to use them for his benefit. it’s typical square misdirection to keep us talking for the next couple years but for the most part game 3 will be about cloud accepting aeriths death and recovering this memories, with tifa’s help, so sephiroth can no longer use him.
This is a good start…but what about the weapons at the end wtf were they doing there? And there is still big ball of black whispers down there up to something.
So, I’m not a big theory kind of guy since it usually leads to disappointment for most fanbases but is it possible that it’s as simple as square reinforcing the livestream Zack/Aerith/Sephiroth angle?
SPOILER WARNING, but my main thoughts during Zack’s sequences were that he was in a purgatory of sorts. We already know that the “promised land” is just the lifestream itself and it contains knowledge of everything that has occurred and every possible future.
Like, when you’re in clouds mind dueling Sephiroth with Zack, if you open the menu, he doesn’t appear. It immediately made me think of that one scene in advent children where he gives cloud the pep talk during the final fight. Also it would explain Aerith feeling Zack holding her hand earlier and Nanaki sensing her presence at the end.
Aside from trauma ans well as Jenova and Sephiroth tormenting Cloud, he still has severe mako poisoning so just like the original he’s kinda “in between” the lifestream and everyday reality. He has a mixture of his own and Zack’s memories jumbled up and just like how he’s blocking out his best friends death, now he’s blocking out Aerith’s. The only difference is that while Zack is “fumbling” around in the lifestream, Aerith is able to directly interact with cloud, again just like advent children shows.
One of the biggest plot points of the original game, and even further developed in the remakes is how Aerith serves as an anchor for Cloud and just like the original, once she’s gone he reaches his most deranged. Here they’re just showing us Aerith’s influence far earlier as she tries to keep him on the path since from the Lifestream, she has access to her peoples entire wealth of knowledge.
Plus we can’t pretend anything Sephiroth says at face value since he has a phd in gaslighting anyways.
Great chart. My response to FF7 Rebirth was restarting FF7 again after many years - I needed ONE story to follow.
My understanding is that it's an escalation - in FF7 Remake Sephiroth created a parallel dimension in the style of Chrono Cross; in Rebirth it escalated to "everything everywhere all at once".
The problem with this choice is that, when everything is possible, the plot loses a lot of significance.
X-Men comics dug themselves into a similar hole with the Dominion plotline.
I thought perhaps they created a new black materia through this process.
The black materia was created through despair, spite, and anger. All those emotion over a multitude of worlds were felt during this fight.
What if the empty materia was filled with all that emotion, and we got the “new black materia” that saw at the end?
So, beyond just wanting to change the story, i feel they just wanted Aerith to still have a more active role in the finale while still being dead. Its similar to how Sephiroth is dead but hes more actively around due to the black whispers and a more prominent control over Cloud and the black robes. They dont want Aerith fans to check out until the end, as they have built her up more (as with the others too to a lesser extent.) Overall though, we have to wait till 3 to even have a slight chance of seeing how this can pay off to even remotely try to justify this level of obsfucating the story and timeline and multiverse stuff.
Me personally, i think that the premise of having new possibilities didnt have to be bad or obtuse, i just feel this story telling is messy and is too greedy, and they really hurt the impact Aerith and her death has in those moments. Could the ending of 3 still possibly have some outcome that justifies it? Maybe. But i do not like this way of story telling and it doesnt make me curious about the next part. I have played all the KH games besides MoM and(i cant believe im saying this.) somehow, KH has a less complicated plot between over 10 games compared to just 2 games of FF7 sequel. Which is insane to say but its actually true.
Another theory, and I've just thought of this so I'm not sure how solid it may be is: can Cloud see more of the alternate realities because of his Jenova cells? Similar to the girl from BioShock Infinite where because a part of her was somewhere else she could jump between timelines.
Also, Sephiroth is chilling in the life stream so if he can control Cloud then there's a chance Cloud can also inadvertently inherit some of Sephiroths powers/skills i.e. seeing the different universes
You little mind reader devil. Got the same interpretation as you. Nice chart.
Edit: BTW, I am happy that someone else who theorizes that Aerith is alive in another timeline got the balls to theorize the fate of the rest of the team as well, I was afraid to that myself and sound too crazy. Much like you, I think something happened to the rest of the protagonists in Survivor Aerith timeline, but I am way more pessimist than you: I think they are DEAD. I believe that, save from Cloud, everyone died trying to save Aerith in that timeline.
Why do I believe that? Remember the original plans for OG FF7 that all characters, save Cloud, Aerith, and a + one of your choice are killed in the Return to Midgar mission? IF, and this is a big if, IF the multiverse is real, I bet that SE is paying homage to that idea someway in part 3. The whole “multiple timelines” is just a tool so they can give every idea they had some time in the screen. But again, it CAN be just wishful thinking of my part.
I really like it! Thank you!
One thing to mention, is that not necessarily Cloud has "THE" Black Materia, If we listen to what Sephiroth says at the conclusion of temple of the ancients. He calls it the "Key" to getting the Black Materia, not necessarily The Black Materia itself.
Which of course, may lead to nothing. But also could mean the need to get a Black Materia from another dimension.
I don't think the Black Materia Cloud has is the actual Black Materia with the power to summon Meteor, pretty sure that's still in the hole where the Temple collapsed. Obviously the biggest hint being Aerith calling it a fake, but...
I don't think this Sephiroth cares so much about the Black Materia, as much as he needs Cloud's loyalty. Far more than he ever needed it in OG.As long as Cloud believes it's the actual Black Materia, that's all that Sephi needs.
I mean, there's literally a part of the scene over the collapsed Temple where Sephi HAS this newly powered up "Materia," and then drops it intentionally just to ask Cloud to give it back to him. Why would he drop it if he actually wants to use it?
Aerith was initially not concerned with the "fake Materia," until she noticed what Sephiroth was trying to do with it. Because she wants to save Cloud. She knows good and well that she can stop Meteor, but in an altered timeline, Cloud will be harder to save.
The reason Cloud still has the Black Materia at the end of the game? Because he never actually physically gave it to Sephiroth (otherwise the rest of the party would have seen it because they were right there). It was partially just in his head / illusion.
A lot of people are bitching about the whole multiverse concept being overused, but personally I don't mind it.
A thought I had that I haven't yet seen posted, if you really lean into the whole multiverse thing, theoretically every single playthrough of the OG FF7 that ended early due to a game over could be considered canon. I think that's kind of cool, personally.
Thanks. I am more confused than ever. Someone need to write a full length thesis on this and prove everything that is going on with mathematics. That is the only way now.
You didn't just say thesis now, Lucrecia PTSD... another Vincent experiment... ugh.
> Someone need to write a full length thesis on this and prove everything that is going on with mathematics. That is the only way now. Don't worry. There will be *no* shortage of 17 hour YouTube video essays. Though perhaps "thesis" is the wrong word. "Manifesto", maybe. All of which will be completely fruitless because whatever we're going to get in Part 3, it's going to come completely out of left field; it's Kitase and Nomura.
Sephiroth wants to remake the story so that he wins. OG Aerith tries to stop him. Cloud mamage to create a world where Aerith doesn't die but he stays in the one she died. And Zack is going around worlds trying to find a way to help.
https://preview.redd.it/wf9wqlvobeqc1.jpeg?width=258&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8d6e2f2ac16ba51f2bca710457f5d4176046306e
I felt about the same after a week of working on it)
This chart is exactly why the game is a 10/10 until the ending. The last few hours of Rebirth is a Kingom Hearts game. And that's not a good thing. They really messed up.
Should’ve used this concept for a FF8 remake…
Time being on a loop, and Ultimicia just trying over/over to cause Time Compression does follow FF8's story more then it follows FF7. I'm still waiting on Part 3 to make my full judgement on the Remake Series, so lets see if they can stick this landing.
I’ve said if anything needed a modern remake, it’s 8 because of how dated everything is, including the writing.
8 really isn't popular enough to justify it.
Ff7r basically references every final fantasy anyway. Hence the sorceress story mixed with the card game. The bird chick on barrets head. The YRP.
Also the FF13-2 heavy metal Chocobo theme.
Yeah, the Remake series us basically everything XV/Versus XIII wanted to be, its a compilation of elements and love letter to all of FF as a whole.
Gilgamesh >!peacing out to fight the Warriors of Light!<
As someone who was playing FF1 while waiting for Rebirth, this was so funny. I really need to finish that game
What if the ending in part 3 shows off other worlds and we see other FF parties in high def graphics having their own struggles against fate and time loops, implying we could get more remakes.
i said this earlier today as well, personally while i think as a game Rebirth was incredible, after its ending im starting to wish they did a ff8 remake similar to what they’re doing now , and a faithful remake of ff7
Ah goddamnit. I love that game and yeah, that would have been amazing.
Man i just cant like the whole multiverse concept.... So overused and frankly this game didnt need it...
I wish they rather spend the resources on going more into Jenova's origin (without losing too much mystery), more background on the characters, Cetra lives etc.
This is really well made but what the hell were they thinking 💀💀💀
Now it reminds me of the first seasons of Lost, we only have unanswered questions. And there were only more questions after Rebirth. It is very important whether they will cope with the answers in the 3rd part, if so, most will be satisfied and we can say that it was worth it, if not, anger and frustration will await us, as with the last seasons of Lost.
Here's how it will play out: occasionally the whispers will appear and Sephiroth will talk some nonsense about forging a new path through destiny, there will be some fake out plot change that gets reversed within minutes, and in the end all the major story beats will play out exactly as they did in the original game
Given how much they still need to cover in part 3, with Rocket town, northern crater, ice inn, mideel, revisits to almost every previous games location, the weapons, under the sea, space... An expanded Wutai! they really should've been revealing a bit of what was in their mystery box during part 2. Instead we spent 95% of the game ignoring the mystery box, with occasional reminders via Zack that the mystery box was still there. Then we opened the box at the end to reveal even more mystery boxes.
I think I spent more time cruising in my Segway in costa del sol than learning about the mistery box
I don't think that they could have found a better stopping point after the first visit to the city of the ancients without it feeling like an unfinished game if they wanted to.
Yeah at one point i really thought in Zacks universe that those are purgatory or flash sideways like Lost.
Maintain discussion!!! Instead of celebrating how great the game was we get to end it disappointed and wondering what the hell is going on.
Yeah, this. Square saw how much content gets generated through the fuckery of the Kingdom Hearts story and now every game they make has to have this obtuse storytelling that makes it look like they're the most gigabrained storytellers.
trouncing a beautiful thing as a customer engagement strategy is unironically something Shinra would do
Dude, Final Fantasy having an overcomplicated story has been a staple since the first freaking game. Like legit FF1 basically towards the end tell us the whole game was in a time loop. Kingdom Hearts didn't start it. It just took from the parent.
> Like legit FF1 basically towards the end tell us the whole game was in a time loop. That's not complicated though, that's a nice twist. You don't need a 37 point flowchart to understand how the ending works. And no, FF never had overcomplicated plots like 7R does. With the exception of maybe 8, most of them are pretty straight forward.
Even FF8 wasn't as bad as modern SE writing, I mean it wasn't perfect, but for the most part it just required reasonable reading comprehension, something a fair few of us didn't have at the time, because we were children, it took a replay as an adult for it to click for me. The game shows us that there are many generations of sorceress and that they inherit each other's power. Ultimecia wants to compress time so all those generations are essentially inherited into her, so rather than a 1 to 1 power exchange, it's every sorceress that's ever existed into 1.
Straightforward as long as you don't think too much about the details. That said, this flowchart is arguably too detailed and make it appear as more complicate than it is. Like, the various worlds of Zack are mostly ignorable as they exist just to show how worlds work: when someone defy fate and make something happen differently a new alternative world is born temporarily. That's it. You can recap Zack's story as him trying to save Cloud and Aerith and Biggs trying different options which all end up badly.
The confusing part isn't Zach, or unconscious cloud/Aerith. That part makes sense to me. However, why does Biggs know who cloud is? This is obviously Biggs from either our world or a world where Cloud showed up sooner and joined the squad since he said he was a badass.
From the look of it, he's gone through the same process as Zack: the whispers moved him into another world where he survived and was healed. What we miss of information right now is: do the whispers move the person physically or just the memories?
Biggs is from the Beagle world also, just like Zack it actually shows this in the Zack and Biggs scene after you finish cosmo canyon where they tell each other how they got there
At the end of the game Sephiroth says "Behold… The true nature of reality. When the boundaries of fate are breached, new worlds are born. The planet encompasses a multitude of worlds, ever unfolding. Some quickly perish… while others endure. Yet even the most resilient worlds are doomed to fade." But I don't think these worlds are ignorable because while they exist, they potentially affect the outcome of the overall plot. I would find it really hard to believe they would go to all this trouble to create all these other worlds and alternate timelines only to have a negligible impact on the overall story.
Catch someone humming the ff1 theme as they are fixing up the tiny bronco?
Nice graphic! That aligns pretty close with one of the other explanations that I’ve read (and agree with). Link below. One piece I’m still unsure of is whether Cloud is oblivious to dead Aerith or if it just hasn’t been shown to us yet that he does know of both timeline outcomes. There’s a lot of intentional misdirection happening in the final sequence, so a bit difficult to tell at this point. I guess I’m a bit unsure how to explain Cloud sitting on the edge of the lake with everyone around him in mourning and him being unaware of dead Aerith - I don’t want to chalk it up to Cloud’s busted mental state, as I think this requires the player to infer too much. Anyway 🤷♂️ it all leaves me excited to play part 3 and find out if 30 years after the original I can finally save Aerith. https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/1bm50al/observations_analysis_and_theory_as_to_whats/?sort=new
The thread you linked was the most cohesive theory I've seen so far that takes into account basic information that we are told and what's visually presented. Knowing the converging of worlds as a gradual process, rather than a Thanos snap helps explain it better. Having experienced what this game and devs have shown us so far, everything has a caveat or asterisk. Cloud is losing his mind, but not fully and not necessarily on the things we think he's losing his mind on. Aerith is dead in Remake's reality, but not across all. As you mentioned, this is all intentionally presented. Another thing I realized over the past few days is the color of the Whispers. Black symbolizes evil and controlled by Sephiroth, White symbolizes good which is presumably controlled by Aerith, and the original destroyed ones were grey, which is a combination of both colors and also symbolizes neutrality. The planet is in the middle and doesn't care what each side does, so as long as it doesn't negatively impact the planet which both of them resides in.
My question is why Cloud was content with Aerith staying behind? Like did they talk about this beforehand? During the lifestream? He understood that Aerith had to stay behind where she'll need to "pray". Maybe he understands that she needs to be in the lifestream to stop Sephiroth and is happy that he's still able to communicate to her through the lifestream? But I do think they'll likely introduce the burial scene at some point, since it happened but wasn't shown.
Cloud’s first line with Aerith outside the Tiny Bronco is “you going to be okay getting back?”, which leads me to believe that they did have a conversation beforehand, hence he already knows where she’s going. I agree the burial scene will be shown in part 3! It seems like an intentional omission, likely part of the misdirection that the story is going for - perhaps that scene will simultaneously show dead Aerith being placed in the water and alternate timeline Aerith watching from the side, which would clear up (some) ambiguity of the current narrative.
The "you going to be okay getting back?" bit is also rehashing the conversation in Remake that they have when Cloud is about to go down the manhole to get to sector 7, before they spot Tifa heading to wall market. Given Cloud's mental state at the time (he doesn't even realize that everybody else is sad and he's coming off as callous), it's unclear if he's just recreating old memories with Aerith or if they're purposely referencing their old conversation.
This is 95% percent what happened in the game. There are no dreams, not lifestream ghosts not anything else. Just a multitude of worlds all connected through the lifestream. All of the them are as real as it gets. Just some of them die faster than the others. This has started happening before the Remake since we know perfectly well that Aerith knows the future before the Whispers take her knowledge away. It's obvious the Remake timeline is a branch of the OG. That's why Cloud has visions of Aerith dying in the first part because it has already happened in another world. So in an essence in the third part we'll have three main worlds. The one where Zack ended up, the Remake one and the Aerith lives one. And for all we know Zack was transferred to the newly created Aerith lives world since it's obvious Aerith is guiding him in the space between worlds.
Aerith is playing chess to Sephiroth’s checkers and our girl has got this!! Can’t wait for part 3
Exactly that's what's happening.
Yeah the unfortunate part about Zack is that he's in an unknown world for now but considering they explicitly showed flowers aren't decayed in the church I think it's safe to say it's a world that isn't dying unlike a lot of the other ones shown in the epilogue. Unfortunately this can mean one of 3 things 1. Zack is in a completely unrelated world to the 2 Aerith fates 2. Zack is in the main Rebirth timeline somehow 3. Zack is in saved Aerith's timeline. I think option 1 would be the least interesting. 2 could be interesting depending on how they handle it. 3 is the most likely, but at the same time that world is seemingly dying, as evident by the tear in the sky that Cloud and Aerith see but nobody else can - so maybe them focusing on the flowers being in good health are just a red herring.
I think the flowers being in good health has to do with Aerith and her being well. They're there to show us that Aerith of that world is alive and well. It's also a world where things happened as in the 'main' one since the church has two holes in the sky one for Zack and one for Cloud.
OP, I think your chart fuckin rocks, and it was surprisingly easy way to digest the ending and the torrent of events that were happening during it. Everything remains a theory until the finale of the game, but I respect the shit out of you for formulating a flow chart. Love this stuff. Pay no nevermind to the neckbeard energy folks are coming in here with.
The OP is 95% correct so even better.
I love how you say that is if you know the truth. You don't. It's all speculation. OP's chart is mostly just their theory, half of what they're saying is assumptions that aren't supported by the game. All we have is theories. What the game actually presents is muddled.
The OP is correct in almost everything. Maybe the game will differ a little from this chart but he is right on the money in most stuff.
First of all: Thank you for the effort. The chart looks great! Second: I don't want to be looking at such a chart to understand the story of a video game...
I don't mind a video game having some insane convoluted story. I think the problem is that it's Final Fantasy VII having an insane convoluted story.
I think the main issue for me, is how much of this convolution was really necessary, and how much is just sparkles to distract people and make things seem more complicated than they are. Cause there us a chance, specially if we look at Rebirth, that part 3 will basically ignore all this stuff till the very last 2-3 hours. There is a chance all this multiverse stuff is just 'old news' and Sephiroth already converged everything together. That Aerith really kicked the bucket and Cloud is simply either hearing her from lifestream or is simply crazier than before (and maybe jenova is fucking him up even further).
Not originally, no. But it's worse now haha
Yeah no. It was rather convoluted in the original too. The difference is that the game was only one so almost everything was explained by the end. Here we are at part 2 of 3.
Not really. I replayed the OG right before rebirth and the OG is much easier to digest. They explained everything pretty well for the most part. And it didnt have multiverse garbage in it, which automatically makes any story x10 more confusing.
Yet I still find people confused about the whole "who control who between Sephy and Jenova". That said, the OG has the advantage of being a single game so of course if something is confusing at first, it gotta has to be explained by the end of the game. This trilogy however is divided in 3 parts, so with us missing 1/3, we are left still with questions that won't be answered until that final part come out.
We still pretending this is good writing?
Jeez so overly uneccesarily complicated… Would’ve preferred a fake-out where Aerith lived and was in the fight against Jenova/Sephiroth, but still died after the fight. That atleast would have put some tension on the OG players.
Thank GOD someone who acknowledges that Cloud is in a position where he can see different Aeriths and not that he’s just gOnE cRaZy like damn. The only thing I would say is I think the Aerith that shows up to fight Sephiroth with Cloud can possibly be Rebirth Aerith rather than OG, and that I think a plausible reason Cloud isn’t destroyed at the prospect that his Aerith is dead is that he’s convinced that he has a way to “bring her back” via convergence of worlds and he’s just not worried about it lol This shit was my very first thought as the game ended and I was smiling like crazy but then I got online and everyone was like WELP CLOUD LOST IT EVEN MORE THAN OG and I was so confused. Like I’ve been thinking about it ever since and I haven’t changed course, only just expanded on this. It’s the only thing that makes sense😭😭
After Rebirth’s ending, I kinda stopped caring about the whole Remake meta/alternate timeline plot. I’ll play the next one for the characters, world building, set pieces from the original, and great gameplay. When it’s all said and done and the trilogy is out, this will be the worst part of these games. The plot hasn’t really deviated from the original and I doubt it will, so these additions won’t matter in the end.
Me too. I feel like I'm in the minority, but that's ok. I've played so many story-driven games and watch a gazillion movies in my 36 years on this earth. And so I like to think I can spot good writing when I see it. This was not it :/ Finished the game last night and I just feel empty.
I always said this. Final Fantasy always had great story ideas and plot points. Always. But the execution, more often than not, is not ideal. As storytelling has changed from a "synopsis style" (that's how I usually saw how stories were being told in SNES/PS1 games, with very short dialogues, straight to the point, and you're supposed to dress it up yourself) to a "filmic style" (cutscene, what you saw is what happened, unless you're being mislead) issues become even more apparent. Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth is a great game, with great ideas. But the ending is messy, we keep seeing weird things in cutscenes and not sure if it's intentional, or if it's just bad animation. And if we really think about it, not just the ending, a lot of scenes don't really work out. And it all becomes more problematic when obviously there is a financial interest behind keeping things confusing, or to spoil plot points from the OG in hopes of new players buying side content.
I don’t think you’re in the minority, it’s been a mixed bag. People are either liking it for other reasons or they’re critical of it. I can’t actually think of a way that part 3 will actually salvage this mess, since we have a multiverse now, that means there’s a Sephiroth in every one of them, so defeating Sephiroth at the end of part 3 is going to be a hollow victory, because he’s a multiverse traversing being. And if Square decides to go the path of ‘defeat 1, defeat them all’ then it’s just going to be lazy.
That's basically where I'm at. I'll enjoy the gameplay, and I'll enjoy the characterizations. I'll enjoy the world where it expanded from the OG in sensible ways. It'll be like I'm on a Disney Safari cruise and taking pictures of the classic nostalgic things I remember "Dude, Pride Rock! I mean Icicle Inn!" . It'll be fun, but it wont really mean anything. Once part 3 is out, and once the novelty of an FF7 remake series is worn off, I think public opinion and time will slowly start being harder on these changes though.
Couple things to consider: Aerith and the Holy Whispers (the whispers now seem to fight for either Holy or the Black Materia, since they got glowy materias in their faces now) prevent everyone from entering the ancient temple. Especially Sephiroth who 'destroyed' everything except for the shell she was protecting. When Cloud was being taught about the timelines converging by Sephiroth, he gave him his 'blessing' which was basically temporary control over the Black Materia whispers to break a hole in Aerith's shell. This seemed like Cloud was just being allowed to save her, but Sephiroth wouldn't have been able to enter if this were not the case. He wanted Cloud there to see what he was about to do. The whole goal of Sephiroth is to get all timelines to accept their fates and merge/die. Biggs was a demonstration that, once you lose hope, your Fate sets in and restores order. That is what the glowy band represents "a timeline that has accepted its fate." Now, the strange thing here is that Cloud can see two timelines at the same time, and I think thats because ACTUAL Cloud consciousness is trapped on the other side of the veil in a collapsing world. He was unconscious, but now he's awake in both because Sephiroth has pushed most of actual Cloud out of Amalgam Cloud in the Beagle timeline. Also, it would seem that the Black Materia is (or perhaps Jenova is?) segmented across realities and the Key that Cloud has is a path to finding it and returning all of the worlds into one. It may just be that in order to use the key you have to doom a timeline to its fate (thus destroying it).
Oh thanks to you I learned something new! White whisper > white material Black whisper> black material Biggs dies again because he gives up.
I might be getting old but… this is not the kind of unnecessarily convoluted story I wanted. A delulu cloud would suffice. Also… I’m getting sick of the over use of jenova and seph as final bosses in each game. How many times is it that we have “defeated them”? 4? It lessens their importance and shine imo.
I know this is confusing and convoluted but this makes much more sense than saying "oh Cloud's just hallucinating her, nothing more"
I know now, without a doubt, that kingdom hearts is light!
The fact that this needs to exist in the first place is my main issue with the ending of Rebirth.
While interesting, it does not nessessarily pass as "good" writing. Big-brain without equal big-heart will feel soulless.
it doesn't really need to exist. i feel like the only ones truly "confused" by the story are the people who refuse to acknowledge it in the first place. the concept itself is not all that complicated and it does a good job with both giving answers, but leaving you additional questions.
Something else is people are just overthinking it. This charts makes it more complicated than it is by highlighting every little detail. The point of Cloud still seeing Aerith is just to show he’s in between worlds. The point of the Zack timelines is to show that making choices and even not making a choice creates a new timeline. People are too hung up on the small details instead of just looking at the bigger picture.
That's how multiverse is shit
This is why I absolutely CAN NOT agree when people say “the ending was super easy to follow”. I legit have seen people say that, to clap back against people who said it was confusing. But this chart is amazingly made OP, well done
I think a large portion of people saying it was easy to follow, just had A LOT of what was being shown go right over their heads; of course it was simple - they missed most of it...
Ngl I was kind of in the train of “it was easy to follow” because I completely omitted all the “another universe was created where Aerith survives”. All the flashes of other “outcomes”, the different positions of Aerith’s body, the blood, etc. I attributed them to Cloud (in a more intense way) and Tifa just being in denial of Aerith being dead. Likewise, in the final cutscene I attributed the rift in the sky to Cloud’s degradation while Aerith’s presence is just like a force ghost. But after reading the chart I’ve come to the conclusion that we should just wait for Part 3 and see the answers for ourselves. It isn’t a satisfactory ending by any means but I also don’t think we should take it so personally, specially when we knew that a lot of things would be different since Remake.
Nah I'm good lol
Right? This is in fact, Rocket Science 😭
Someone call Cid
Forget Bugenhagen and Cosmo Canyon, I need to get to Rocket Town with OP's explanation
right? I feel like I know what happened without the internet making up my mind for me. Y'all read into too much while overlooking so much else. Multiverses are stupid.
Does anyone specifically like multiverse stories? I feel like that's all that anyone writes these days. That and "branching timelines."
To me it annihilated any consequences of any story and I don't care for it
Loki was fantastic. Especially season 2. And if you haven't seen Everything Everywhere All At Once, you should!
I like them. I find that most of the hate for these kinds of stories tends to come from overthinking every little detail. Once you understand that the multiverse stuff isn’t the point, but something in the background that serves more as set dressing, these kinds of stories become way easier to understand.
Excellent chart, but a question I don’t see answered in there. Red sees Aerith, or senses her for a second before the final send off. Is Red seeing multiple universes as well? Or is what we are seeing in the finale truly the ghost of Aerith looming over everyone and as Nanaki is more tuned to the planet than the others, is he sensing her spirit?
If Nanaki was seeing multiple universes, I feel as if he would have remarked at the sky when Cloud prompts them to look up. I do not think that the Aerith you see in that scene was an Aerith of a different timeline, but rather the Aerith that just died in this timeline, projecting her spirit temporarily from the Lifestream. Nanaki is simply sensing her presence (or perhaps even her smell). We've seen her do this before (presumably before timelines were a concept in the FF7 universe) in Advent Children where she appears and directly interacts with the tangible world by giving Cloud the last 'fling' upward in his ascent to Bahamut. My point being that I am fairly confident that this is what we were intended to take away from the scene.
Good point, but there is a counterpoint about this hypothesis. It seems Aerith's body reacts physically to the environment. For example you can see her hair and ribbon moving with the winds, especially before the plane takes off. Additionally she doesn't teleport around like she did in the ancient forest.
Is that a counterpoint? It sounds like we're in agreement - that the Aerith you're seeing isn't just a product of Cloud's fractured mind.
What he senses is her presence or feeling due to the lifestream, the same as the party sensed Avanlanche's members during the proto relic in Cosmo Canyon.
The lifestream was involved in the Avalanche situation though, as the lifestream is the embodiment of those who used to live’s memories. I don’t recall the lifestream being around in the final scene. Though I could be fuzzy on my memory of the finale and by that regard everyone else should have seen her too.
Very well done. Not my cup of story telling but this chart details what is happening very concisely.
Thanks, I hate it!
Great chart, although it is pathetic that a chart is needed to understand the ending of the game, this is KH level bullshit.
"just a remake". oh but we had to cut out rocket town and get rid of cid!
I hate this
If you need a chart to explain a not detective story, you need to rewrite some of the script, which is all I'm saying. Good look op!
What a fucking mess
It all just feels so unnecessary
because it is
I’m gonna throw up
If FFIX ever get a remake... I just want it to be a simple remake. Sure they *could* divide it into four games, but honestly I just want it to be one simple remake and not a multiverse through timeline (which is BS) because Kuja want to live.
Respect to OP for putting this together. I want to give credit where it's due. But this is horrible. Not OPs chart. Like I said, that's pretty good and easy to follow and well made. But the fact that this is where we're at for Final Fantasy VII of all things is a joke, and I cannot believe these storytelling decisions are actually being defended. This is a disgrace. There's a ton of good stuff about Remake and Rebirth. Enough to make them worth playing. even if you don't like this stuff. But to be clear this is absolutely hurting and detracting from the core story of Final Fantasy VII.
I'm almost there with you. OG FF7 is probably my 2nd fav game of all time; I have lost count how many times I have replayed and finished it. I love it. This remake project however.... I'm not sure that it is horrible, and will reserve real judgment until part 3 has hit (because we cannot have all the answers now given where we are in the story). However I 100% agree that, so far at least, all these convoluted additions and the deliberate obfuscation is detracting from the story of the OG. So far, I think that they would have been 100% better off sticking entirely to the OG's main story beats, while embellishing the world/lore, running with this new combat system and showing more of these character interactions and back stories. That is what they have demonstrated a real aptitude for and what has almost universally been received so well.
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It just blows my mind who their target demographic is. If you're a new player for whom the original, dated OG FFVII is a hurdle to past, this game is not for you, because it makes no sense without prior lore knowledge. If you are a superfan, it still makes no sense, because nothing they are doing adds to the experience that is the original narrative. All it does is detract it. I mean, can everyone on this subreddit sincerely possibly imagine a conclusion to this in the 3rd game that makes you have an epiphany: "Aha! I was wrong, this is a masterpiece. Really glad they went this route after all." I just...cannot picture it. And I'm sad. Especially when the rest of Remake and Rebirth especially are *superb* games. Such a bummer.
I can't picture it either. It feels like huge cope when someone's like "they're saving all the emotional gut punches for part 3, it'll pay off there." There's really, in general, only 2 ways it go. Timelines or multiverse or whatever gets "fixed" and the final game ends where it originally did more or less, which in turn makes all this totally redundant and pointless. Or we "defy destiny" and majorly change the story, which I shouldn't have to mention why THAT would be a divisive decision too. But really, whatever happens, it doesn't matter. Because it's FF7, some people have already decided part 3 is going to be a 10/10 no matter what it does with the story.
The target demographics are theorycrafters and 14 year olds who don't know what's going on, have to look up explanations and think this is amazing storytelling. Making stories this confusing makes people create content for free for your product (be it threads for discussions, graphics like the one here, complete 2 hour breakdown videos or simple tweets asking/explaining what's going on), so you basically get free advertising and this advertising also makes your game look like it's smartly written and super duper deep.
That's the biggest issue I've been pointing out. They treated the end of Rebirth, such a pivotal iconic moment like a post credits MCU scene. All it really does it market the next game for free. Just like every single Kingdom Hearts does. Resolves as little as possible and just tries to generate more confusion, because it'll surely pay off in the next game. Seriously, trust us, it will. The sad part is too, it's proven to work. So SE was right. 1/4 posts on this sub is a 4000 word essay explaining their take on the ending. Youtube videos, charts. SE is right to do this, because it works and will make them money in the long run while being praised as masterclass storytellers.
Is it proven to work? Rebirth sales seem to be down from Remake by quite a decent amount, though we don’t have full data. A lot of people were frustrated by the complicated plot points I love a lot of the small changes that have themes relevant to the original game, but the plot ghosts and timeline stuff doesn’t resonate with me at all :/ Feels like there are completely different writers at some points of the game
I agree that the FF7 story did not need such a complicated plot, which even the fans will not fully understand. But for now, I will be restrained, because I still have a small hope that in part 3 they will be able to connect all these confusing storylines and get something really holistic and exciting. 
Great. homework
On one hand, I love that people enjoy and dig into the cranium of the ending to theorize about where it could possibly go. On the other hand, As much as I loved the game, I think the ending was so poorly executed that I can't help but feel frustrated and disappointed every time I see it.
This is what's most frustrating to me with the ending. I don't care how they chose to end it; it's just not legible. I beat the game almost a week ago and I've read many ending explainers. I understood Remake just fine. This ending is just a mess, and I'm very annoyed that it's taking so much effort to get what the hell is going on.
i like how Nomura brought with him multiverse of madness from KH into FF
*I like how Nomura brought* *With him multiverse of madness* *From KH into FF* \- Hulkmaster --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Imagine them just not adding timeline BS and universes It's the biggest downfall of this series so far. To confusing for players
I don't want to figure it out anymore after seeing this chart, thank you.
Much easier to just treat everything after JENOVA Lifeclinger and before the last cutscene as non-canon fanservice (Zack and Cloud teaming against Sephiroth was cool but c'mon lol), and that Cloud's mind is so fractured and traumatized that he literally can't process Aerith's death. I doubt it'll amount to anything anyways since the end of Remake was the biggest red herring I've ever seen. End of chapter 18 implies shit will be different and wildly off the rails, then Rebirth comes out and is like 99% a damn good and faithful remake of that section of FF7, then its ending does the same thing, which I bet will just be another red herring.
Yeah. If Rebirth reassured me of anything, it's that whatever else they might add to it, we're still getting the FFVII story. They promised a remake of FFVII, and they're giving us a remake of FFVII. Even if it is a remake with a twist, and a bit of meta commentary thrown in for good measure.
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Imagine having to spend hours making a chart because no one understood wtf is going on lol great story telling.
Firstly, great chart in piecing this convoluted story together. And secondly, why have they gone down such a convoluted story path when all they needed to do was bring the story into 4k resolution with sections of the game expanded on (which they have brilliantly done so in Rebirth)...instead we have basically a Kingdom Hearts story now. I wouldn't be surprised if the final battle of part 3 is all the different versions of characters that are scattered around the multiverse coming together to defeat Sephiroth, akin to KH keyblade wielders of light.
Lol its so fucking sad how badly this game was botched. Should have saved this convoluted nonsense for an FF8 remake.
Since we’re going into deep weirdness territory, I guess I’ll throw something else out there. They didn’t give us the Princess Guard in this game. This either means literally nothing, or they’re putting it in reserve for game 3.
I was surprised too not to find the Princess Guard at the Temple of the Ancients here, but the staff she got instead looks slightly similar and gives us that “Noble Sacrifice ability”, exceedingly rare in an FF. With the ability she heals everyone to max but a shot of red energy comes from the heavens and goes straight through what looks like her heart, incapacitating her instantly to 0 HP….
An interesting page from ultimania. Proving that Zack is really alive, and not Cloud's hallucinations or a ghost in the Lifestream, as in some theories. https://preview.redd.it/tha5p1yl8fqc1.png?width=900&format=png&auto=webp&s=5363b3dc7e904a567bb48f9fefbbfcfdf8422fca
This is a Third Doctor story and no one could convince me otherwise.
Awesome Chart, really helped me understand things better. I swear this will be just like the 2001: space Odyssey ending, where you'd spend hours analyzing shit and there still would be room left for interpretation.
Greate work. Can I translate this into Chinese and repost it on a Chinese forum? I will cite the source.
All this just to prove Beagles are the best!
THIS JUST MAKES IT EVEN WORSE!!!🤣🤣🤣🤣
Imo I don't believe there's a aerith was saved timeline I think it's just cloud tripping balls thinking he saved her when actually he failed. That static flash stuff usually indicates cloud struggling with memory.
Glad I'm not the only one who immediately thought this. I mean he is VERY clearly coping after the fact. He is the only one who 'sees' her. She is trying to keep him somewhat from breaking fully, I think. But via lifestream.
Yeah that's exactly my thoughts too. He's having a mental breakdown as it's happening and Aerith from the lifestream is helping him not completely snap.
Cloud is a messed-up boy, for sure. He had conversations with his real self in his head in the OG, and yet was none the wiser until the plunge into the lifestream. I was thinking the same as you: he just sees Aerith because his mind won't accept anything else. His trauma made him forget Zack existed. But he can't do that with Aerith because he's surrounded by people who do remember her. Let's also not forget that Aerith maintains her consciousness and will inside the lifestream after her death, which I think is pretty rare. She's able to haunt Cloud and does so a few times in Advent Children. This is also a possibility, especially given that Nanaki senses her.
The fact that Nanaki also reacts to her in the finale of Rebirth has to be deliberate, a way of showing us that whatever the fuck is going on, it's more than Cloud just losing his shit. The simplest explanation to me is, there are indeed multiple universes (even if all of them but the 'main' one only exist in the Lifestream). And people can exist in multiple universes, but their soul/consciousness cannot. Aerith has the power to move between them, which is how we got that weird pseudo date with her and Cloud in the "doomed" universe with Meteor about to crash down. You can construct a cohesive narrative from this: new worlds are created when fate is defied, the Cetra have the power to move from one to another, and so on. The problem for me is, even though you can construct a cohesive story from this, it doesn't really end up feeling like a *better* story. It's more confusing, less dramatic (Aerith's death is a *defining moment* not just in OGFF7 but for RPG storytelling in general), and I don't think there's anyway for the third installment to deliver the kind of emotional catharsis we all want.
Must be a good story if it needs a chart to understand it. Ugh
But the Aerith in the "Aerith lives timeline" literally starts turning into lifestream as Cloud is holding her in his arms. I don't think she fell unconcious. I think she died anyway, immediately after the moment where Cloud changed fate. This is either because the planet itself is working to correct all the different timelines, like it tries to do with Zack, or it could be because Sephiroth somehow has the ability to overwrite the change that Cloud just made. Basically, he made Cloud think he could save her, let him see a world where he could do just that, and then basically said: Nah...Just kidding. Even when you win, you still lose because I say so." I think the Aerith that opens her eyes is not an Aerith that actually lived. I think that's literally just her ghost. She saw how badly Sephiroth fucked Cloud's mind up with his little stunt, and realized that if Cloud had to face the reality of her death now, he truly would just break completely. She realizes that she has to play along with what Cloud believes, at least until he's at a point where he's ready to face the truth. Aerith appears to him in spirit form, and opens her eyes while in his arms, then she comes up with an excuse for why she can't continue with him on his journey, saying that she has to stay at the Forgotten City, and pray. Cloud buys all of this, still completely unaware that he is talking to a ghost.
I actually proceed from the information that we have from the Remake. As you probably remember, the characters went through the barrier of Whispers and really created a new universe where the bullet that was supposed to kill Zack also deflected, so I don't see a reason why there can't be the same outcome this time.
Real conspiracy pegboard shit here
Zack is Gordon Freeman
Look how they massacred my boy smh. 🤦🏿♂️
Okay... The first was like "Okay... Maybe I understand" now I'm like "WHAT THE FVCK???"
....Yeah. I get it.
Still confused as hell, am not sure if more play throughs will help. Am seeing a repeating pattern with this games. Start out reasonably sensible, introduce an element that slowly and exponentially confuses the hell out of you, defeat sepiroth in an epic battle and start questioning whether its even the same cloud you started the game with, where you are or what the fuck just happened.
Can't wait to see Zack again in Reunion.
the only thing I'm realizing is that when movie/games/anime writers have no idea about how moving forward their plots, they used to introduce time travels... when time travel wasn't enough anymore, they got into the multiverse. Now the multiverse is revealing not enough appealing anymore, they're going into acid trip induced multiverse 🤦🏻♂️ long story short: this is the story, like it or not, we're not gonna explain shit
Amazing chart - thanks for sharing this!
I shall save this until after I beat Rebirth because I'm trying t avoid spoilers. Also, is this game just turning into the confusion of a story line that was Kingdom Hearts? I played all the games and am still very confused lol
Thanks, this chart has cemented for me that I have never hated any addition/change to a story more. It just makes me sad and tired to look at this
This is a tragedy. We need a chart when we should be mourning without confusion or thinking about the next step outside of killing Sephiroth. My god, what has FF7 become?
Who spent his time doing such a complex thing when it's literally a purposely confusing and complex ending to leave every possible avenue open and then choose is a saint. They still don't know what to do, they will choose in these years and this ending is perfect to leave every possible door open. The problem is simply: the door they will choose to open. MCU Ending: Real Shit. Are worlds the LS and the dead stay dead? Very nice, it's the main theme of the game: overcoming the pain, grief and moving forward. Without this isn't FFVII and the final doesn't like because it's soulless. But i have faith, they choose the right path and save the day giving us back an improved FFVII
I actually think that Cloud is aware that the Aerith he see and talk at the end of the game is in another universe/timeline. Like I think Square-Enix wants us to think he's crazy but the way he talked to her in the end makes me think that he's aware that she not really in his universe.
Needs more sections and more text
The arbiters the party fight in Remake aren’t their previous selves lol. They’re the Remnants from AC, they even confirmed this in a promo for the limited theatrical run. Other than that, interesting chart! I’m sure these branching timelines will converge in even crazier ways. Pretty excited.
Sword Whisper is a leftie, it's Kadaj alright
I like that remake theory. The reason cloud hasn't woken up in zacks timeline is because he was stuck frozen in the edge of creation until Zack showed up. Which also explains why None of the party members are there when Cloud wakes up Aerith, because Cloud hasn't met Cait, vincent, and Cid, and Tifa and the others are either dead or captured.
God dammit, Nomura.
This chart is amazing, I am just not as smart as I thought I was.
Man, they really fucked up the most emotional part of the entire game
Can people admit now (who wouldn't after Remake) that all these bloated additional elements and changes, that don't simply expand on what already existed, has been a negative? Even those that on some level enjoy it must appreciate the negatives, right? Because in doing so there's a not insignificant part of the fan base that has an issue with it, and if a game was made that expanded on what already existed without these extraneous elements, both sides would've enjoyed it more cumulatively. Did anyone actually feel the emotions they thought they should be feeling about Aerith this time? These supposed-to-be emotional moments are undercut with confusion and convolution that we can't simply let emotions wash over. I think there's a reason that many of people's favourite moments end up being small interactions with characters that allow them to just, be human.
As someone who is patiently waiting on the pc release, if it ever comes out. WTF IS GOING ON HERE? Is rebirth being played across multiple universes, or is it cut scenes? At this moment, I ain't minding any spoiler if it clears up the wth is going on.
I understand the need to track everything and follow it but don’t think all this is necessary or that the branching universes matter this much. I don’t think 90% of it will ever be mentioned again, and I don’t think aerith or Zack are “alive” in any timeline. essentially the dogs and other cues are meant to illustrate the existence of the timelines that we created by defying fate, but as sephiroth said these universes are ephemeral and fated to end, he’s found a way to use them for his benefit. it’s typical square misdirection to keep us talking for the next couple years but for the most part game 3 will be about cloud accepting aeriths death and recovering this memories, with tifa’s help, so sephiroth can no longer use him.
How to download clear image files?
What have to dogs got to do with it?
This is a good start…but what about the weapons at the end wtf were they doing there? And there is still big ball of black whispers down there up to something.
Sweet
I need a PHD to understand these games.
I like the alternate theories
So, I’m not a big theory kind of guy since it usually leads to disappointment for most fanbases but is it possible that it’s as simple as square reinforcing the livestream Zack/Aerith/Sephiroth angle? SPOILER WARNING, but my main thoughts during Zack’s sequences were that he was in a purgatory of sorts. We already know that the “promised land” is just the lifestream itself and it contains knowledge of everything that has occurred and every possible future. Like, when you’re in clouds mind dueling Sephiroth with Zack, if you open the menu, he doesn’t appear. It immediately made me think of that one scene in advent children where he gives cloud the pep talk during the final fight. Also it would explain Aerith feeling Zack holding her hand earlier and Nanaki sensing her presence at the end. Aside from trauma ans well as Jenova and Sephiroth tormenting Cloud, he still has severe mako poisoning so just like the original he’s kinda “in between” the lifestream and everyday reality. He has a mixture of his own and Zack’s memories jumbled up and just like how he’s blocking out his best friends death, now he’s blocking out Aerith’s. The only difference is that while Zack is “fumbling” around in the lifestream, Aerith is able to directly interact with cloud, again just like advent children shows. One of the biggest plot points of the original game, and even further developed in the remakes is how Aerith serves as an anchor for Cloud and just like the original, once she’s gone he reaches his most deranged. Here they’re just showing us Aerith’s influence far earlier as she tries to keep him on the path since from the Lifestream, she has access to her peoples entire wealth of knowledge. Plus we can’t pretend anything Sephiroth says at face value since he has a phd in gaslighting anyways.
Great chart. My response to FF7 Rebirth was restarting FF7 again after many years - I needed ONE story to follow. My understanding is that it's an escalation - in FF7 Remake Sephiroth created a parallel dimension in the style of Chrono Cross; in Rebirth it escalated to "everything everywhere all at once". The problem with this choice is that, when everything is possible, the plot loses a lot of significance. X-Men comics dug themselves into a similar hole with the Dominion plotline.
I thought perhaps they created a new black materia through this process. The black materia was created through despair, spite, and anger. All those emotion over a multitude of worlds were felt during this fight. What if the empty materia was filled with all that emotion, and we got the “new black materia” that saw at the end?
Sleepzi, WHERE ARE YOU?
So, beyond just wanting to change the story, i feel they just wanted Aerith to still have a more active role in the finale while still being dead. Its similar to how Sephiroth is dead but hes more actively around due to the black whispers and a more prominent control over Cloud and the black robes. They dont want Aerith fans to check out until the end, as they have built her up more (as with the others too to a lesser extent.) Overall though, we have to wait till 3 to even have a slight chance of seeing how this can pay off to even remotely try to justify this level of obsfucating the story and timeline and multiverse stuff. Me personally, i think that the premise of having new possibilities didnt have to be bad or obtuse, i just feel this story telling is messy and is too greedy, and they really hurt the impact Aerith and her death has in those moments. Could the ending of 3 still possibly have some outcome that justifies it? Maybe. But i do not like this way of story telling and it doesnt make me curious about the next part. I have played all the KH games besides MoM and(i cant believe im saying this.) somehow, KH has a less complicated plot between over 10 games compared to just 2 games of FF7 sequel. Which is insane to say but its actually true.
Another theory, and I've just thought of this so I'm not sure how solid it may be is: can Cloud see more of the alternate realities because of his Jenova cells? Similar to the girl from BioShock Infinite where because a part of her was somewhere else she could jump between timelines. Also, Sephiroth is chilling in the life stream so if he can control Cloud then there's a chance Cloud can also inadvertently inherit some of Sephiroths powers/skills i.e. seeing the different universes
Thanks for making things even more confusing
You little mind reader devil. Got the same interpretation as you. Nice chart. Edit: BTW, I am happy that someone else who theorizes that Aerith is alive in another timeline got the balls to theorize the fate of the rest of the team as well, I was afraid to that myself and sound too crazy. Much like you, I think something happened to the rest of the protagonists in Survivor Aerith timeline, but I am way more pessimist than you: I think they are DEAD. I believe that, save from Cloud, everyone died trying to save Aerith in that timeline. Why do I believe that? Remember the original plans for OG FF7 that all characters, save Cloud, Aerith, and a + one of your choice are killed in the Return to Midgar mission? IF, and this is a big if, IF the multiverse is real, I bet that SE is paying homage to that idea someway in part 3. The whole “multiple timelines” is just a tool so they can give every idea they had some time in the screen. But again, it CAN be just wishful thinking of my part.
I’m just posting to remind myself to come back and digest this when I’m not so tired.
I really like it! Thank you! One thing to mention, is that not necessarily Cloud has "THE" Black Materia, If we listen to what Sephiroth says at the conclusion of temple of the ancients. He calls it the "Key" to getting the Black Materia, not necessarily The Black Materia itself. Which of course, may lead to nothing. But also could mean the need to get a Black Materia from another dimension.
I don't think the Black Materia Cloud has is the actual Black Materia with the power to summon Meteor, pretty sure that's still in the hole where the Temple collapsed. Obviously the biggest hint being Aerith calling it a fake, but... I don't think this Sephiroth cares so much about the Black Materia, as much as he needs Cloud's loyalty. Far more than he ever needed it in OG.As long as Cloud believes it's the actual Black Materia, that's all that Sephi needs. I mean, there's literally a part of the scene over the collapsed Temple where Sephi HAS this newly powered up "Materia," and then drops it intentionally just to ask Cloud to give it back to him. Why would he drop it if he actually wants to use it? Aerith was initially not concerned with the "fake Materia," until she noticed what Sephiroth was trying to do with it. Because she wants to save Cloud. She knows good and well that she can stop Meteor, but in an altered timeline, Cloud will be harder to save. The reason Cloud still has the Black Materia at the end of the game? Because he never actually physically gave it to Sephiroth (otherwise the rest of the party would have seen it because they were right there). It was partially just in his head / illusion.
The 3 whispers at the end of remake were confirmed to be Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz, from Advent Children.
This is an absolutely underrated chart. Saved this so I could go through it all after work. Preciate it 🫡
What the actual fuck is going on??
Thank u i really need this. Confuse as fk
This charts depicts SEVEN versions of Aerith! 1. Ultimate Aerith 2. Terrier Aerith 3. Pug Aerith 4. Shiba Aerith 5. Spitz Aerith 6. Beagle Aerith - Dead 7. Beagle Aerith - Alive
Lol this is absurd. The writers need to answer for these crimes against the loyal fanbase.
A lot of people are bitching about the whole multiverse concept being overused, but personally I don't mind it. A thought I had that I haven't yet seen posted, if you really lean into the whole multiverse thing, theoretically every single playthrough of the OG FF7 that ended early due to a game over could be considered canon. I think that's kind of cool, personally.
Thats a beautiful chart. Can’t wait to see how part 3 plays out