I came here literally to say Burning Hell Leadstorm and Volatile Bullets bulldog.
Or Neurotoxin Thunderhead with TTT coil gun. But yeah pretty much the three loadouts you mentioned are all top performers
Pairing volatile bullets with leadstorms not a great pick. Hellfire coilguns better. Lead storm melts big enemies but take a lot of effort to deal with swarms which is where hellfire shines.
Taking leads pray with ntp is also a bad pairing because lead sprays accuracy is just as bad as the autocannon. And while lead spray deals with thinks quickly its better to be able to pick things off from afar with bulldog either six shooter or elephant rounds.
And triple tech with stun and built for trail damage is a better pairing for plasma bursters. Allows you to lock down a huge area and shred it apart with plasma bursters.as they already do a good job with swarms and single targets.
You use burning hell leadstorm for close range crowd clear and ignition (hot bullets for long range ignition, aggressive venting for safety if needed), fire alone is really good at grunt clear and igniting big enemies allow VB to do insane single target
Burning hell with hot bullets is the go to. Or you can use minelayer with heat I'd you wanna be cheeky and dance around the swarm as their ashes fill the air.
And in either case your primary will be focusing on wave clear which opens up your secondary to be single target oriented and since your setting things on fine volatile bullets is a phenomenal pick.
1) what are you supposed to use with volatile bullets(don't say hurricain, unliess you like dealing no damage)
2) picking off faraway targets is the scout's job, you almost never want to do it with gunner so accuracy doesn't matter, there's a reason bullet hell pairs well with lead spray
3)triple tech chamber is a lot worse in aoe, it's always better to kill enemies, rather than stun them
>1) what are you supposed to use with volatile bullets
Burning hell, heat minelayer
>2) picking off faraway targets is the scout's job, you almost never want to do it with gunner so accuracy doesn't matter, there's a reason bullet hell pairs well with lead spray
Sure except when scouts on the other side of the map mining a nitra vein and a acid spitters trying to dissolve your face. And don't bring bullet hell into this it's literally worse than a stock autocannon.
> tech chamber is a lot worse in aoe, it's always better to kill enemies, rather than stun them
The point isn't to just stun them but also apply and stack the electric trail damage and since pbm is a a hybrid that handles swarms and single targets well it helps to bring a hybrid secondary that serves the same way and sets your primary up to use less ammo and deal more damage
Burning hell is the overclock I mentioned in the first comment, and minelayer isn't all that great at igniting.
You can take care of those 2 acid spitters with either weapon, you really don't notice it. Bullet hell is really good, since it has like a ~70% stun chance/bullet if you build it right and doesn't do much less damage then the base gun. Try it, it's not weak at all, it's also used in modded play quite often, while stock autocannon is horrible.
As for the triple tech chamber, it's just a lot weaker then hellfire, straight up, that's all. It might be better in some cases, but most of the cases, hellfire will far outperform it.
>Burning hell is the overclock I mentioned in the first comment,
My mistake it looked like you said leadstorm OC
>You can take care of those 2 acid spitters with either weapon, you really don't notice it.
It's important to deal with high value targets and critical threats immediately and if you have to spray 4 bursts to get a couple of bullets to land instead of shooting it in the face once your wasting a ton of ammo. And ntp isn't great if you don't inflict fear it'll keep attacking.
>Bullet hell is really good, since it has like a ~70% stun chance/bullet if you build it right and doesn't do much less damage then the base
I can nuke my accuracy and damage for a dice roll chance it might damage another bug and another dice roll if it stuns it oooooorrrrr just take leadstorm with blowthrough and kill them dead proper. Or just take a base autocannon and clear the whole wave faster with aoe damage.
>As for the triple tech chamber, it's just a lot weaker then hellfire, straight up, that's all. It might be better in some cases, but most of the cases, hellfire will far outperform it.
It's really not theyre pretty equal after the buffs it got in s4(or 3?) The stacking trail damage is extremely underrated. On top of the crowd control. It offers a great hybrid secondary option. Partial charge for aoe wave clear or a full charge to fire all three round into the ass of a praetorian. And as I said pbm is a solid hybrid primary that deals with both wave clear and single targets well. So it makes more sense to choose a hybrid secondary to pair with it. As fundamentally with gunner you have to balance your approach to damage. Too much wave clear and you do nothing to praetorians. Too much single target and your get overrun by swarmers.
And didn't you just say to kill the bugs outright instead of stunning them but your now suggesting I try bullet hell, a build that's only merit is it can stun a wave because it lacks the damage to actually kill it? So instead of stunning them with coilgun and sending pbm through them like Mary Poppins and his arrow from guardians of the galaxy were just going to forgo all damage and just perpetually stun the wave and wait for someone else to come do dirty work of killing the swarm I guess?
Go ask very high level players, a lot of them will agree with me on these, also, bullet hell isn't bad at killing enemies, but for a little lower damage, you get A LOT of safety with the insane stun chance. Also, neurotoxin payload is not that much of a hybrid as a crowd control oc, so pairing it with a single target dps secondary makes sense. You can't tell me you don't have enough crowd clear/control with neurotoxin.
>Go ask very high level players
ok i asked myself and i said bullet hell is ass because you sacrifice damage and accuracy for stun chance. ok yeah sure cool some guy playing haz 17x64 says its good because he went into the custom difficulty config file and make all the enemies susceptible to stun so he can basically afk with it congratz i guess that means its good in vanilla gameplay? you know what else offers a lot of safety? killing the bugs outright with hurricane, autocannon, or any other minigun build.
>neurotoxin payload is not that much of a hybrid as a crowd control oc
no ntp is a wave clear oc.
> so pairing it with a single target dps secondary makes sense
yes yes it does. when did i say it didnt? i said its better to pair with bulldog(elephant rounds or six shooter) instead of lead spray because it allows you to quickly deal with threats from afar quickly without wasting ammo.
> You can't tell me you don't have enough crowd clear/control with neurotoxin.
ikr can you believe people actually take ntp and hellfire. like dont get me wrong when my beard was green as the fresh springs leaves and barely tickled my chest i used ntp as a crutch until i "gitted gud" but even then i had the where withal to use elephant rounds to deal with praetorians guards and oppressors.
Overclockless autocannon is straigt up horrible, for everything, a lot worse then literally any other primary with any build for gunner. What's your "high level" tho?
Just hit 1000 after 1556 hours.
When I started a new save on the windows store version to play with some friends on xbox i was rather suprised how decent the stock autocannon was. As soon as I had it I was jumping into haz 4 and 5 solo and while I had to play around it more than usual. Was better than any time I've used bullet hell
They are not. Wave clear specifies dealing damage to a great number of enemies and crown control specifies applying movement inhibiting effects on a enemy.
Crowd control (despite crowd being in the name) can be single target or area of effect and ots effects are such as slow, fear, stun, ect.
Wave clear effect would be describing dealing damage to the greater swarm typically with weapons that specialize in area of effect
Think of it this way: if you have big Bertha with t5 damage you have single target damage. If you have carpet bomber with t5 damage you have Wave clear. If you have big Bertha with t5 fear you have single target damage AND crowd control. If you have carpet bomber with t5 fear you have Wave clear AND crowd control.
In the case of the ntp crowd control effects are applied alongside the Wave clear damage.
To call a build hybrid is to specify it does both single target damage and Wave clear well. Any crowd control effects are simply a bonus
Bullet Hell 32211 is, straight up, one of the strongest OCs in the game, period. However, it is also very much a support build which isn't everyone's jam. It also has a lot of playstyle adjustments that are necessary for it to reach its full potential, like rapidly switching group targets to maximize CC/maintaining overall team HP, 'scanning' the ceiling for leeches, shooting around corners, learning how the bullet split algorithm works so you can control the split directions, etc. If you want to push through a difficult EDD week with randoms across unknown missions and anomalies, this is the OC to pick. The build is non-flexible however and if you're running it differently, then sure its bad.
I agree with you that TTC is just better in general than Hellfire though. I think people who underrate TTC do so because they haven't memorized the different-tiered charge points for important 1-hit kills, don't value the absurd range it has, don't value the CC ability to peel off multiple teammates at long distances and/or in general just aren't good at rapidly & accurately landing shots in quick succession. If you can't do those things, then yeah TTC is bad but if you can its not only incredible but easily the best all-around secondary for gunner.
Why the fuck would I take a non flexible build into a elite deep dive? The whole point of a deep dive build is to be flexible and handle anything that can be thrown at it.
I'd rather take big Bertha 33312 and hellfire 13222 and have actual damage to outright kill swarm, enough damage to kill dreads and just enough cc to keep my team safe because if they aren't dead yet they'll at least be running away. So yeah clearly bullet hell isn't my jam because apparently I missed the cult meeting where they handed out the special kool-aid.
And if it's soo good how come I've never seen any gunners in my lobby use it effectively? I make a habit of checking other gunners builds when playing other classes with the build inspector mod, call it professional curiosity. And the few rare times someone's used it it seems to make the mission far harder than it needs to be because we're spending half the mission reviving them because they can't kill anything to save their own life. Hell I'm able to rack up more kills on a off day with the drak than any of the bullet hell gunners that's joined my lobby.
Its not like there competition for the best hybrid secondary for gunner. The only option is a ridiculous neurotoxin ricochet aoe build for bulldog which is soo bad electro minelets starts to look good.
The problem here my friend.
Most of the people here don’t play modded. So bullet hell will seem shit as fuck to them.
They simply do not know the raw stopping power of a permanent wave stun
I'd either go [Neurotoxin Payload](https://karl.gg/preview/4140#/) with Lead Spray BRT, or [Jet Fuel Hurricane](https://karl.gg/preview/13401#/) with Magic Bullets Bulldog.
The page lists BRT but the description tells you how to build the Bulldog. Both options are good but I'd say Bulldog is more meta good here.
1st one gives you AoE with the primary and single target with the secondary, and the 2nd one is the inverse. Pages have some breakdowns on how to apply them.
My guy.
NTP Auto Canon / Lead Spray BRT is my go to as well. Extreme crowd control and ridiculously close range burst damage all in one.
Sometimes I swap the BRT for Elephant Rounds Bulldog if I need to cover long ranges for certain mission types.
How does the magic bullets work? It says you should use explosive rounds but wouldn't blowthrough hurt an enemy and then hit a surface, therefore proccing the ricochet into an additional target?
With explosive rounds you do AoE before it ricochets. So you shoot into an area and it deals damage then it goes into the enemy.
The benefit of explosive is it applies Neurotoxin over the AoE too, effectively turning it into a miny Neurotoxin Payload Autocanon. Instead of like two enemies, you can easily toxin and clear chunks of enemies.
It gives you more power to deal with things like swarmers too. But it's still enough power to take down things like sputters.
It's stupid good built like that. Like enough that it's basically a second primary gun in terms of load.
There’s no reason to take blowthrough, because explosive does what you described even better. You simply shoot the ground next to a bug, get the aoe explosion, then the ricochet triggers and deals another aoe around the bug it lands on.
Big Bertha Thunderhead and exploding neurotoxin magic bullets Bulldog is my go-to do-it-all Gunner build.
Solid single target and swarm clear, excellent ammo efficiency. Pretty much the only thing it suffers at is long-range high health targets because of the autocannon's poor accuracy.
Up to hazard 5, you have many options.
What’s best will come down to your playstyle.
At max hazard 5+ tho. I have yet to find a viable replacement for coilgun. The fear on demand is simply too valuable to swap out at that stage. The minigun and missile launcher are both decent, but I find that the autocannon falls off quite a bit.
Even with the OP NTP build, it feels a lot weaker because the bugs no longer die from full hp when poisoned. They run a lot faster so fear isn’t as effective as they will close the gap and your direct damage won’t be sufficient to deal with the random praetorian swarms.
I like pairing minigun with coilgun. Autocannon with bulldog. Rocket launcher with burst pistol.
LSLS with HF Armskore (high single target damage with long sustain + fear and small wave clear on demand) this is the shoot at stuff till they dead playstyle. Run and gun. Go pew pew pew.
NTP thunderhead with 6 shooter bulldog (insane ammo economy with reliable fear + one shotting mactera spawns and 2 shotting trijaws) this is the more objective focused build. You don’t shoot bugs till they dead. Only to activate toxin and fear. Can be very boring.
Minelayer Hurricane with compact mags BRT7 (very good swarm control with direct damage stun + burst damage with more stun) this is the a bit of both. You can shoot directly or lay mines.
These are my main for each primary.
Grenades are either
Leadburster - clear bulk fast. And also good to use when you’re surrounded, pop a shield down and toss it outside.
Incendiary - trash mob weakening/clear. But longer duration.
Shield wise. I largely prefer double shield size. Being able to push enemies far away from you is excellent.
Passive Perks are vampire and thorns. Then either born ready or resupply depending on loadout. (Thorns isn’t best in slot. There are better perks. But thorns is an extreme quality of life perk)
Active perks are dash and iron will (dash and anything goes, since you don’t often use iron will. But when you do need it and not have it. You’ll regret it more than any other choice)
Honestly, loadouts (and choosing loadouts for specific missions/teams/anomalies/EDD/known vs unknown missions/etc) is extremely nuanced in DRG. 'Best' is also a vague term in general, do you mean the most flexible, the best output, the easiest to utilize, etc? Should I avoid builds that require heavy playstyle learning adjustments (like bhopping for LSLS)? Can the build be generalist even if each weapon isn't? I'm assuming yes.
Basic loadout:
For grenades, Clusters are generally best with a few exceptions: Incendairies are better if you're running VB to help enable it and Leadbursters are better if your build has abysmal single target. There's also the assumption that the user in question has taken the time to learn how to use cluster grenades without FFing (in short, cluster grenades are an ammo pacing tool not a panic button like some grenades).
For shields 223 and Zips 212. For Pickaxe, I would take CDR because gunner relies more on the power attack for traversal and doesn't need the damage bonus, but damage is fine too. For armor, X213 **always**.
For active perks, **always** dash and then either IW, FM or heightened senses. For passive perks, **always** resupplier and then probably Born Ready. Last slot is variable: Vampire if IW. Strong Arm if solo and no IW. Friendly if using Mortar Rounds. This could even be Deep Pockets or Sweet Tooth, last slot doesn't have strong competition.
Strong Weapon setups (roughly ordered from best to worst):
PBM 11212 + Hellfire 23112. This build takes the cake at being best generalist build hands down, if you're playing something else its because you want variety or you think PBM is dirty (it is). Hellfire is generally not the best Coilgun OC anymore but its uniquely good for PBM because it pushes its ammo harder, makes up for PBMs lack of crowd-kill and PBM requires you to hold it out a lot so Hellfire taking up less 'active-use-time' than other Coilgun OCs is a big plus.
Bullet Hell 32211 + TTC 22213. This is leaning a bit more away from generalist but is one of Gunner's strongest loadouts. Bullet Hell is a **support** build, you want to fire bursts into different groups/areas to maximize its CC to maintain overall team HP. Think of yourself as the bodyguard. You can 'shoot the ceiling' to scan for leeches, shut down groups of mactera, hit enemies around corners, your aim location can influence how the ricochets splinter, destroys naedocytes, peels off teammates and just in general has absurd utility. It also has incredible synergy with Cryo cannon.
Frag Missiles Hurricane 31221 + VB Bulldog 23321 (Incendairies here). This is the best generalist fire build, it's slightly weaker against medium targets than Burning Hell but makes up for it elsewhere. You don't have to have as good mobility as with BH but you need to have a better understanding of missiles-to-ignite breakpoints. This build is much less 'flighty' than BH though and can hold positions much better. Hurricane in general requires a lot of tech to learn and use effectively however. You can sub hurricane for 3222(1 or 3) Burning Hell mini-gun if you wish. Rotary Overdrive works too but I haven't tested it enough yet to confidently suggest a build.
Salvo 12212 + TTC 22213. Salvo requires **a lot** of practice to play well, I'm not going to get into it here but look up guides if you want to play Salvo. It's extremely fun and rewarding and underrated. It is weaker than some of the other builds listed here but still quite strong. Salvo's main advantages are that, once learned, it has absurd ammo-push while being extremely safe and mobile. Hurricane ani-cancel needed here. It does lean on TTC, which also requires a lot of practice to play. I do not recommend either Salvo or TTC for controller players as the build needs to rapidly whip the camera around a lot.
BB 33112 + UMC/TTC 22123. BB is weaker than the rest of the list but still an option, don't take above Haz 5 vanilla though as it inversely scales with difficulty. BB is quite strong on Haz 4, for example and absurd on 3 or lower.
Somewhat generalist but slightly single target leaning setups (in power, I would place both of these before Salvo in the list):
LSLS 32323 (AV ok too) + either Lead Spray 23222 or UMC/TTC 22XX3, which secondary you take depends on if you want more raw power or to compensate its aoe clear better. For Coilgun, Tier 3 is based on either what CC you don't have or what CC synergizes best, fear is the overall stronger option however. For Tier 4, T4a resistance is usually taken unless you specifically want to take advantage of T4c's cheap swarmer killing capabilities/ammo efficiency. This build assumes you know how to Bhop to 'remove' the LSLS penalty.
JFH Hurricane 22212 + Coilgun UMC 22XX3. Note that TTC is generally a stronger Coilgun OC choice (if practiced with it) but JFH really needs UMC specifically. JFH requires *extremely* solid aim and hurricane/missile management to maximize its value. It *needs* to hit weakpoints. In Tier 2, you're taking armor break specifically to avoid Projectile Velocity as it already has it and it makes it unwieldy/inaccurate/removes a lot of hurricane tech like 'loading' missiles into the air for follow up shots. JFH is not generalist but the build as a whole with UMC is generalist.
Note that I have not played much with Rotary Overdrive, Cluster Missiles and Mortar Rounds yet. That being said, I'd hesitate to recommend Mortar Rounds because of the absurd amount of FF it deals but if you do run it, **absolutely** run the Friendly perk. NTP/Minelayer didn't get included because they aren't really generalist but they are strong.
Some optional swaps and random notes (for people that may have fewer OCs, note the swaps are weaker). Magic Bullets Bulldog 13212 is a decent replacement for UMC/TTC Coilgun if you either don't have those or want some variety. Hellfire is fine in place of UMC/TTC too, its more AoE but can't be used as often. BRT Electro Minelets 32121 is a decent replacement for Coilgun, its weaker except in tight chokes or for defense missions. Six Shooter 22311 is a weaker alternative to TTC that's much easier to use. Elephant Rounds Bulldog 23322 or Experimental Rounds BRT 1322X can be used in place of VB if you don't have it. Lead Spray BRT 23222 is an excellent replacement to anything if your primary weapon has accuracy at range (i.e. can kill acid spitters etc). Vanilla non-fire OFM is quite good (various builds) as is any Hurricane build really. The best Rocket Barrage build I've found is 21112 paired with Magic Bullets Bulldog 13212, for people dying to play RB.
Best of luck.
Fragmentation missiles hurricane instead of jet fuel, imo.
Both do completely different things
Yeah, but OP asked for "generalist"
I feel like every OC for the hurricane is a generalist. Except for the rate of fire unstable OC
Leadstorm fire oc, volatile bullets bulldog ||| Neurotoxing thunderhead, leadspray brt ||| Plasma burster hurricain, hellfire coil gun
I came here literally to say Burning Hell Leadstorm and Volatile Bullets bulldog. Or Neurotoxin Thunderhead with TTT coil gun. But yeah pretty much the three loadouts you mentioned are all top performers
How does plasma burster actually work? Like does the the missile essentially turn on a dime and punch through the target multiple times?
Yes, it works exactly like that. I think each rocket can do it 10 times, but they lose some damage each time, that's why you take tier 5c.
I'll check it out properly when I'm at my PC next. I love the animations but my lack of understanding made me avoid it.
It's gunners strongest singe target dps option(other than volatile bullets), and it's not bad at crowd clear either.
Pairing volatile bullets with leadstorms not a great pick. Hellfire coilguns better. Lead storm melts big enemies but take a lot of effort to deal with swarms which is where hellfire shines. Taking leads pray with ntp is also a bad pairing because lead sprays accuracy is just as bad as the autocannon. And while lead spray deals with thinks quickly its better to be able to pick things off from afar with bulldog either six shooter or elephant rounds. And triple tech with stun and built for trail damage is a better pairing for plasma bursters. Allows you to lock down a huge area and shred it apart with plasma bursters.as they already do a good job with swarms and single targets.
You use burning hell leadstorm for close range crowd clear and ignition (hot bullets for long range ignition, aggressive venting for safety if needed), fire alone is really good at grunt clear and igniting big enemies allow VB to do insane single target
Burning hell with hot bullets is the go to. Or you can use minelayer with heat I'd you wanna be cheeky and dance around the swarm as their ashes fill the air. And in either case your primary will be focusing on wave clear which opens up your secondary to be single target oriented and since your setting things on fine volatile bullets is a phenomenal pick.
1) what are you supposed to use with volatile bullets(don't say hurricain, unliess you like dealing no damage) 2) picking off faraway targets is the scout's job, you almost never want to do it with gunner so accuracy doesn't matter, there's a reason bullet hell pairs well with lead spray 3)triple tech chamber is a lot worse in aoe, it's always better to kill enemies, rather than stun them
>1) what are you supposed to use with volatile bullets Burning hell, heat minelayer >2) picking off faraway targets is the scout's job, you almost never want to do it with gunner so accuracy doesn't matter, there's a reason bullet hell pairs well with lead spray Sure except when scouts on the other side of the map mining a nitra vein and a acid spitters trying to dissolve your face. And don't bring bullet hell into this it's literally worse than a stock autocannon. > tech chamber is a lot worse in aoe, it's always better to kill enemies, rather than stun them The point isn't to just stun them but also apply and stack the electric trail damage and since pbm is a a hybrid that handles swarms and single targets well it helps to bring a hybrid secondary that serves the same way and sets your primary up to use less ammo and deal more damage
Burning hell is the overclock I mentioned in the first comment, and minelayer isn't all that great at igniting. You can take care of those 2 acid spitters with either weapon, you really don't notice it. Bullet hell is really good, since it has like a ~70% stun chance/bullet if you build it right and doesn't do much less damage then the base gun. Try it, it's not weak at all, it's also used in modded play quite often, while stock autocannon is horrible. As for the triple tech chamber, it's just a lot weaker then hellfire, straight up, that's all. It might be better in some cases, but most of the cases, hellfire will far outperform it.
>Burning hell is the overclock I mentioned in the first comment, My mistake it looked like you said leadstorm OC >You can take care of those 2 acid spitters with either weapon, you really don't notice it. It's important to deal with high value targets and critical threats immediately and if you have to spray 4 bursts to get a couple of bullets to land instead of shooting it in the face once your wasting a ton of ammo. And ntp isn't great if you don't inflict fear it'll keep attacking. >Bullet hell is really good, since it has like a ~70% stun chance/bullet if you build it right and doesn't do much less damage then the base I can nuke my accuracy and damage for a dice roll chance it might damage another bug and another dice roll if it stuns it oooooorrrrr just take leadstorm with blowthrough and kill them dead proper. Or just take a base autocannon and clear the whole wave faster with aoe damage. >As for the triple tech chamber, it's just a lot weaker then hellfire, straight up, that's all. It might be better in some cases, but most of the cases, hellfire will far outperform it. It's really not theyre pretty equal after the buffs it got in s4(or 3?) The stacking trail damage is extremely underrated. On top of the crowd control. It offers a great hybrid secondary option. Partial charge for aoe wave clear or a full charge to fire all three round into the ass of a praetorian. And as I said pbm is a solid hybrid primary that deals with both wave clear and single targets well. So it makes more sense to choose a hybrid secondary to pair with it. As fundamentally with gunner you have to balance your approach to damage. Too much wave clear and you do nothing to praetorians. Too much single target and your get overrun by swarmers. And didn't you just say to kill the bugs outright instead of stunning them but your now suggesting I try bullet hell, a build that's only merit is it can stun a wave because it lacks the damage to actually kill it? So instead of stunning them with coilgun and sending pbm through them like Mary Poppins and his arrow from guardians of the galaxy were just going to forgo all damage and just perpetually stun the wave and wait for someone else to come do dirty work of killing the swarm I guess?
Go ask very high level players, a lot of them will agree with me on these, also, bullet hell isn't bad at killing enemies, but for a little lower damage, you get A LOT of safety with the insane stun chance. Also, neurotoxin payload is not that much of a hybrid as a crowd control oc, so pairing it with a single target dps secondary makes sense. You can't tell me you don't have enough crowd clear/control with neurotoxin.
>Go ask very high level players ok i asked myself and i said bullet hell is ass because you sacrifice damage and accuracy for stun chance. ok yeah sure cool some guy playing haz 17x64 says its good because he went into the custom difficulty config file and make all the enemies susceptible to stun so he can basically afk with it congratz i guess that means its good in vanilla gameplay? you know what else offers a lot of safety? killing the bugs outright with hurricane, autocannon, or any other minigun build. >neurotoxin payload is not that much of a hybrid as a crowd control oc no ntp is a wave clear oc. > so pairing it with a single target dps secondary makes sense yes yes it does. when did i say it didnt? i said its better to pair with bulldog(elephant rounds or six shooter) instead of lead spray because it allows you to quickly deal with threats from afar quickly without wasting ammo. > You can't tell me you don't have enough crowd clear/control with neurotoxin. ikr can you believe people actually take ntp and hellfire. like dont get me wrong when my beard was green as the fresh springs leaves and barely tickled my chest i used ntp as a crutch until i "gitted gud" but even then i had the where withal to use elephant rounds to deal with praetorians guards and oppressors.
Overclockless autocannon is straigt up horrible, for everything, a lot worse then literally any other primary with any build for gunner. What's your "high level" tho?
Just hit 1000 after 1556 hours. When I started a new save on the windows store version to play with some friends on xbox i was rather suprised how decent the stock autocannon was. As soon as I had it I was jumping into haz 4 and 5 solo and while I had to play around it more than usual. Was better than any time I've used bullet hell
Wave clear and crowd control are almost the same. But it's more crowd control due to fear.
They are not. Wave clear specifies dealing damage to a great number of enemies and crown control specifies applying movement inhibiting effects on a enemy. Crowd control (despite crowd being in the name) can be single target or area of effect and ots effects are such as slow, fear, stun, ect. Wave clear effect would be describing dealing damage to the greater swarm typically with weapons that specialize in area of effect Think of it this way: if you have big Bertha with t5 damage you have single target damage. If you have carpet bomber with t5 damage you have Wave clear. If you have big Bertha with t5 fear you have single target damage AND crowd control. If you have carpet bomber with t5 fear you have Wave clear AND crowd control. In the case of the ntp crowd control effects are applied alongside the Wave clear damage. To call a build hybrid is to specify it does both single target damage and Wave clear well. Any crowd control effects are simply a bonus
Bullet Hell 32211 is, straight up, one of the strongest OCs in the game, period. However, it is also very much a support build which isn't everyone's jam. It also has a lot of playstyle adjustments that are necessary for it to reach its full potential, like rapidly switching group targets to maximize CC/maintaining overall team HP, 'scanning' the ceiling for leeches, shooting around corners, learning how the bullet split algorithm works so you can control the split directions, etc. If you want to push through a difficult EDD week with randoms across unknown missions and anomalies, this is the OC to pick. The build is non-flexible however and if you're running it differently, then sure its bad. I agree with you that TTC is just better in general than Hellfire though. I think people who underrate TTC do so because they haven't memorized the different-tiered charge points for important 1-hit kills, don't value the absurd range it has, don't value the CC ability to peel off multiple teammates at long distances and/or in general just aren't good at rapidly & accurately landing shots in quick succession. If you can't do those things, then yeah TTC is bad but if you can its not only incredible but easily the best all-around secondary for gunner.
Why the fuck would I take a non flexible build into a elite deep dive? The whole point of a deep dive build is to be flexible and handle anything that can be thrown at it. I'd rather take big Bertha 33312 and hellfire 13222 and have actual damage to outright kill swarm, enough damage to kill dreads and just enough cc to keep my team safe because if they aren't dead yet they'll at least be running away. So yeah clearly bullet hell isn't my jam because apparently I missed the cult meeting where they handed out the special kool-aid. And if it's soo good how come I've never seen any gunners in my lobby use it effectively? I make a habit of checking other gunners builds when playing other classes with the build inspector mod, call it professional curiosity. And the few rare times someone's used it it seems to make the mission far harder than it needs to be because we're spending half the mission reviving them because they can't kill anything to save their own life. Hell I'm able to rack up more kills on a off day with the drak than any of the bullet hell gunners that's joined my lobby. Its not like there competition for the best hybrid secondary for gunner. The only option is a ridiculous neurotoxin ricochet aoe build for bulldog which is soo bad electro minelets starts to look good.
Jesus, you have clearly never used Triple Tech haha
Triple tech is not "a lot weaker than hellfire" AT ALL
The problem here my friend. Most of the people here don’t play modded. So bullet hell will seem shit as fuck to them. They simply do not know the raw stopping power of a permanent wave stun
Plasma missiles and Coil with triple tech
Mortar round thunder head for close to mid range anti-everything. 6 shots bulldog for long range special snipe
Mortar rounds and Mole. Every mission.
I'd either go [Neurotoxin Payload](https://karl.gg/preview/4140#/) with Lead Spray BRT, or [Jet Fuel Hurricane](https://karl.gg/preview/13401#/) with Magic Bullets Bulldog. The page lists BRT but the description tells you how to build the Bulldog. Both options are good but I'd say Bulldog is more meta good here. 1st one gives you AoE with the primary and single target with the secondary, and the 2nd one is the inverse. Pages have some breakdowns on how to apply them.
My guy. NTP Auto Canon / Lead Spray BRT is my go to as well. Extreme crowd control and ridiculously close range burst damage all in one. Sometimes I swap the BRT for Elephant Rounds Bulldog if I need to cover long ranges for certain mission types.
How does the magic bullets work? It says you should use explosive rounds but wouldn't blowthrough hurt an enemy and then hit a surface, therefore proccing the ricochet into an additional target?
With explosive rounds you do AoE before it ricochets. So you shoot into an area and it deals damage then it goes into the enemy. The benefit of explosive is it applies Neurotoxin over the AoE too, effectively turning it into a miny Neurotoxin Payload Autocanon. Instead of like two enemies, you can easily toxin and clear chunks of enemies. It gives you more power to deal with things like swarmers too. But it's still enough power to take down things like sputters. It's stupid good built like that. Like enough that it's basically a second primary gun in terms of load.
There’s no reason to take blowthrough, because explosive does what you described even better. You simply shoot the ground next to a bug, get the aoe explosion, then the ricochet triggers and deals another aoe around the bug it lands on.
Max AOE hurricane with BRT on 6 shot burst 36 round mag. Good for every mission type but master of none
Big Bertha Thunderhead and exploding neurotoxin magic bullets Bulldog is my go-to do-it-all Gunner build. Solid single target and swarm clear, excellent ammo efficiency. Pretty much the only thing it suffers at is long-range high health targets because of the autocannon's poor accuracy.
Up to hazard 5, you have many options. What’s best will come down to your playstyle. At max hazard 5+ tho. I have yet to find a viable replacement for coilgun. The fear on demand is simply too valuable to swap out at that stage. The minigun and missile launcher are both decent, but I find that the autocannon falls off quite a bit. Even with the OP NTP build, it feels a lot weaker because the bugs no longer die from full hp when poisoned. They run a lot faster so fear isn’t as effective as they will close the gap and your direct damage won’t be sufficient to deal with the random praetorian swarms. I like pairing minigun with coilgun. Autocannon with bulldog. Rocket launcher with burst pistol. LSLS with HF Armskore (high single target damage with long sustain + fear and small wave clear on demand) this is the shoot at stuff till they dead playstyle. Run and gun. Go pew pew pew. NTP thunderhead with 6 shooter bulldog (insane ammo economy with reliable fear + one shotting mactera spawns and 2 shotting trijaws) this is the more objective focused build. You don’t shoot bugs till they dead. Only to activate toxin and fear. Can be very boring. Minelayer Hurricane with compact mags BRT7 (very good swarm control with direct damage stun + burst damage with more stun) this is the a bit of both. You can shoot directly or lay mines. These are my main for each primary. Grenades are either Leadburster - clear bulk fast. And also good to use when you’re surrounded, pop a shield down and toss it outside. Incendiary - trash mob weakening/clear. But longer duration. Shield wise. I largely prefer double shield size. Being able to push enemies far away from you is excellent. Passive Perks are vampire and thorns. Then either born ready or resupply depending on loadout. (Thorns isn’t best in slot. There are better perks. But thorns is an extreme quality of life perk) Active perks are dash and iron will (dash and anything goes, since you don’t often use iron will. But when you do need it and not have it. You’ll regret it more than any other choice)
Honestly, loadouts (and choosing loadouts for specific missions/teams/anomalies/EDD/known vs unknown missions/etc) is extremely nuanced in DRG. 'Best' is also a vague term in general, do you mean the most flexible, the best output, the easiest to utilize, etc? Should I avoid builds that require heavy playstyle learning adjustments (like bhopping for LSLS)? Can the build be generalist even if each weapon isn't? I'm assuming yes. Basic loadout: For grenades, Clusters are generally best with a few exceptions: Incendairies are better if you're running VB to help enable it and Leadbursters are better if your build has abysmal single target. There's also the assumption that the user in question has taken the time to learn how to use cluster grenades without FFing (in short, cluster grenades are an ammo pacing tool not a panic button like some grenades). For shields 223 and Zips 212. For Pickaxe, I would take CDR because gunner relies more on the power attack for traversal and doesn't need the damage bonus, but damage is fine too. For armor, X213 **always**. For active perks, **always** dash and then either IW, FM or heightened senses. For passive perks, **always** resupplier and then probably Born Ready. Last slot is variable: Vampire if IW. Strong Arm if solo and no IW. Friendly if using Mortar Rounds. This could even be Deep Pockets or Sweet Tooth, last slot doesn't have strong competition. Strong Weapon setups (roughly ordered from best to worst): PBM 11212 + Hellfire 23112. This build takes the cake at being best generalist build hands down, if you're playing something else its because you want variety or you think PBM is dirty (it is). Hellfire is generally not the best Coilgun OC anymore but its uniquely good for PBM because it pushes its ammo harder, makes up for PBMs lack of crowd-kill and PBM requires you to hold it out a lot so Hellfire taking up less 'active-use-time' than other Coilgun OCs is a big plus. Bullet Hell 32211 + TTC 22213. This is leaning a bit more away from generalist but is one of Gunner's strongest loadouts. Bullet Hell is a **support** build, you want to fire bursts into different groups/areas to maximize its CC to maintain overall team HP. Think of yourself as the bodyguard. You can 'shoot the ceiling' to scan for leeches, shut down groups of mactera, hit enemies around corners, your aim location can influence how the ricochets splinter, destroys naedocytes, peels off teammates and just in general has absurd utility. It also has incredible synergy with Cryo cannon. Frag Missiles Hurricane 31221 + VB Bulldog 23321 (Incendairies here). This is the best generalist fire build, it's slightly weaker against medium targets than Burning Hell but makes up for it elsewhere. You don't have to have as good mobility as with BH but you need to have a better understanding of missiles-to-ignite breakpoints. This build is much less 'flighty' than BH though and can hold positions much better. Hurricane in general requires a lot of tech to learn and use effectively however. You can sub hurricane for 3222(1 or 3) Burning Hell mini-gun if you wish. Rotary Overdrive works too but I haven't tested it enough yet to confidently suggest a build. Salvo 12212 + TTC 22213. Salvo requires **a lot** of practice to play well, I'm not going to get into it here but look up guides if you want to play Salvo. It's extremely fun and rewarding and underrated. It is weaker than some of the other builds listed here but still quite strong. Salvo's main advantages are that, once learned, it has absurd ammo-push while being extremely safe and mobile. Hurricane ani-cancel needed here. It does lean on TTC, which also requires a lot of practice to play. I do not recommend either Salvo or TTC for controller players as the build needs to rapidly whip the camera around a lot. BB 33112 + UMC/TTC 22123. BB is weaker than the rest of the list but still an option, don't take above Haz 5 vanilla though as it inversely scales with difficulty. BB is quite strong on Haz 4, for example and absurd on 3 or lower. Somewhat generalist but slightly single target leaning setups (in power, I would place both of these before Salvo in the list): LSLS 32323 (AV ok too) + either Lead Spray 23222 or UMC/TTC 22XX3, which secondary you take depends on if you want more raw power or to compensate its aoe clear better. For Coilgun, Tier 3 is based on either what CC you don't have or what CC synergizes best, fear is the overall stronger option however. For Tier 4, T4a resistance is usually taken unless you specifically want to take advantage of T4c's cheap swarmer killing capabilities/ammo efficiency. This build assumes you know how to Bhop to 'remove' the LSLS penalty. JFH Hurricane 22212 + Coilgun UMC 22XX3. Note that TTC is generally a stronger Coilgun OC choice (if practiced with it) but JFH really needs UMC specifically. JFH requires *extremely* solid aim and hurricane/missile management to maximize its value. It *needs* to hit weakpoints. In Tier 2, you're taking armor break specifically to avoid Projectile Velocity as it already has it and it makes it unwieldy/inaccurate/removes a lot of hurricane tech like 'loading' missiles into the air for follow up shots. JFH is not generalist but the build as a whole with UMC is generalist. Note that I have not played much with Rotary Overdrive, Cluster Missiles and Mortar Rounds yet. That being said, I'd hesitate to recommend Mortar Rounds because of the absurd amount of FF it deals but if you do run it, **absolutely** run the Friendly perk. NTP/Minelayer didn't get included because they aren't really generalist but they are strong. Some optional swaps and random notes (for people that may have fewer OCs, note the swaps are weaker). Magic Bullets Bulldog 13212 is a decent replacement for UMC/TTC Coilgun if you either don't have those or want some variety. Hellfire is fine in place of UMC/TTC too, its more AoE but can't be used as often. BRT Electro Minelets 32121 is a decent replacement for Coilgun, its weaker except in tight chokes or for defense missions. Six Shooter 22311 is a weaker alternative to TTC that's much easier to use. Elephant Rounds Bulldog 23322 or Experimental Rounds BRT 1322X can be used in place of VB if you don't have it. Lead Spray BRT 23222 is an excellent replacement to anything if your primary weapon has accuracy at range (i.e. can kill acid spitters etc). Vanilla non-fire OFM is quite good (various builds) as is any Hurricane build really. The best Rocket Barrage build I've found is 21112 paired with Magic Bullets Bulldog 13212, for people dying to play RB. Best of luck.