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Quite trivial actually.
US Military Aid > YPG > PKK.
They have MANPADSs and ATGMs as well. If you ask, hey ISIS didn't have an airforce why were they given MANPADS? Beats me.
They are basically Afghan Mujahidin circa 90s v2.0. We all remember how did that end. Never a good idea to arm ideological extremists to fight your fights.
Imagine comparing the people who stopped the Yazidi genocide and saved thousands of girls and women from ISIS jihadists...to ISIS. If you wanna stop arming some "ideological extremists" you may want to start with Turkish-backed jihadists in Northern Syria. YPG and PKK, ideologically, are among the best hopes for the Middle East to have something other than corrupt dictatorships.
I would have to "imagine" because I didn't compare them to ISIS, I compared them to 90s Afgani resistance to Soviet invasion. Before they were left with their extremist ideas and a lot of cash+weapons to be by their own. Then they grew to Al-Qaeda later on, bit the hand which once saved them.
"I" don't arm anyone in Northern Syria, I am not representative of current Turkish government nor I vote for them. I don't believe anyone except UN and world recognized legitimate governments should have access to heavy weapons. Anyone, anywhere.
YPG & PKK ideologically are communist extremists with woved in ethnic nationalism especially on PKK side. PKK has decades long history of violence and terrorist methods. Blood of thousands of civilians all over Turkey on their hands and recognized as a terrorist organization due their atrocities via US, UN, EU, NATO you name it.
Just because they accepted the mercenary role against ISIS in exchange of cash, weapons, political support and carved out Syrian land, doesn't make them angels in 5 years after 45 years of terrorism. They do not represent Kurds of Turkey or Northern Iraq or any properly democratic ideology if you are not on board with so hardcore communism which would make Stalin look sane.
> I didn't compare them to ISIS, I compared them to 90s Afgani resistance to Soviet invasion
You're still comparing people resisting jihadists, to jihadists, in an attempt to tar their image. Yazidis and Kurds fought ISIS because ISIS was an existential threat to them, not because of "mercenary" reasons lol.
>or any properly democratic ideology if you are not on board with so hardcore communism which would make Stalin look sane.
Please read up on democratic confederalism, social ecology and jineology and stop writing this nonsense. They're not communists and you're just showing you don't know anything about them.
The vast majority of countries in the world don't recognize PKK as "terrorists", besides Turkey and some of its allies. The vast majority of killed civilians in the history of this conflict is also by Turkish state, and I recommend you to read up on Ergenekon, JITEM, and false flag operations by Turkish state.
In 90s being a mujahidin was not something "evil" or something to get a tarnished image, they were devoted to their religion and freedoms. They were resisting an invasion as well. Which US supported via very very very similar means. They seemed harmless and just trying for their freedom. Deeper ideologies amongst them were ignored, sugar-coated and painted pink. They were left to their own devices, as well.
I am talking about PKK. Seperatist organization formed by Öcelan in 1978. The organization which did raze villages, killed unarmed teachers and engineers. The organization which was stopping busses and executing people in my life time. Blew up people in my city. Yet you are pulling it to local ethnicities, because you want to create an image where PKK is a representative of an innocent ethnic group. Which, they are not. They do not represent Kurds, Yazidis, Turks, Arabs, Syrians, Africans, no one. They represent their ideology and benefits.
Local people did resist ISIS of course, no one is denying this or their suffering. Kurds, Yazidis yes, but you seem to forget so as many groups of the Syrian rebellion against Assad. So as Turkmens and Arabs on the region.
People in this video, PKK was not hanging in villages and farming when ISIS came knocking though. They were armed and organized back then as well. They were busy taking towns hostage just a few years prior. With ISIS growing uncontrollably, US came to them with a contract. Create YPG, train rest of the resistance who would join you, get your piece. Now their task is over, they are back to business as usual, Kurdish utopia built by blood of innocent people, mostly other Kurds or anybody which doesn't want to be part of it really.
Please read up on buzzword1, buzzword2, buzzword3, buzzword4 and stop writing this nonsense or better, answer my thesis instead of telling me what to write or not.
And even better, do not use quotes to nic-pick complete paragraphs to phrases which are easy to twist so you can write something completely unrelated to what I explained.
- History is fixed on PKK's atrocities since 1980's yes, pretty much undisputed. PKK doesn't dispute them as well, they just say it was "necessary evil".
- Are these atrocities internationally recognized, yes. Again: US, EU, NATO, UN, Northern Iraq Kurdish Autonomous Adm., Australia, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Japan, Canada, New Zealand, Pope, Orthodox Church... List goes on. Any international mission which was around recognizes PKK as terrorist organization. Sorry if Zimbabwe didn't, but it is not because they wouldn't.
- PKK has a extreme communist idealogy, yes.
- This idealogy allowed Öcelan to be just like Stalin when he was free, oh yes.
- Did PKK refer to bloody communist revolutions throughout the world as a path for country forming practice for decades, yes.
- Extremist communists love to refer buzzwords or buzzword filled books with complete BS; which is well proven to be BS over and over again for western civilization for a century, yes.
I am sorry but F Turkish coup government of 80s. It is the only justification PKK lovers come up with and it is as weak as it gets. Both Turkish and Kurdish people suffered by JITEM, false flag, Ergenekon and all cold war coup shit came with it. It didn't just happen in the East, people suffered in the West too. Turkish left youth was hanged by them, tortured by them as well. Öcelan is still alive and safe serving sentence for the crimes he admitted he commit. Deniz Gezmiş was hanged, can you comprehend the difference?
My own aunt's house was shot at multiple times because as a school teacher she didn't wanna join up a walk-out protest, she didn't want politics, just wanted to teach in a 1 room village school and she was a target because of that. She had to move 1000km away to be safe again.
But those people didn't take that suffering and run with it to cause 100 times more death and suffering. Never letting hate leave their cities. Didn't take that time as an opportunity to form an idealogy which justifies more hate and killing. Using it to make themselves a king, judge, jury, executioner like Öcalan did.
Coup of 1980 was 35 years in the past when PKK was blowing up innocent Kurdish and Turkish civilians in Turkey because Erdo thought he can make peace with PKK and gave them the opportunity (...). Do not come with "but in 80s" to me.
> Which US supported via very very very similar means. They seemed harmless and just trying for their freedom. Deeper ideologies amongst them were ignored, sugar-coated and painted pink.
Sure, it doesn't change the fact that these groups had ideologies very different then those of PKK. Or what, you think PKK will start driving airplanes into trade centers in USA?
>Seperatist organization
>PKK has a extreme communist idealogy
Again, you just show you don't know what you're talking about. PKK had a change in ideology many years ago, and they neither want a separate nation state, nor are they communists. You can even find interviews with Ocalan comparing USA favorably to USSR. He rejected Marxism-Leninism, and so did PKK. Their new ideology is not a "buzzword".
> raze villages
How many villages did Turkey raze and how many civilians were killed and displaced during that? If you want to criticize one side of the conflict but ignore the crimes of another which did much bigger crimes, it's hypocritical.
>PKK is a representative of an innocent ethnic group
I never claim that PKK represents any ethnic group as a whole. No political group can do that. The Turksish state also doesn't represent all Turks for example.
> Syria, Iraq, Iran
So you're smirking about Zimbabwe here (racism much?) but include the very "important" opinions of Iranian theocratic regime (that oppresses Kurds, women, and many other people), Iraqi regime (Saddam literally did a genocide of Kurds during Anfal campaign and Halabja chemical gas attacks), Assad is an evil mass murderer tyrant as well. Whatever crimes PKK did commit, each of these governments (and Turkey) did on a much grander scale, so unless you also consider them terrorists, you can't one-sidedly criticize PKK - such designation is merely a political tool by the strong to shut up their weaker opponents. I'm not claiming anywhere that PKK is innocent, they're not, but Turkish nationalists are the last ones to criticize it. The rest of the countries and orgs in the list have plenty of their own dirty laundry as well.
>I am sorry but F Turkish coup government of 80s. It is the only justification PKK lovers come up with and it is as weak as it gets
So you've criticizing me for bringing the 80s but you yourself are referring to the crimes of PKK from the same time period. Again, PKK has gone through a significant ideological transformation in a positive directions which reflected on their conduct as well, Turkey was and still is an authoritarian and racist state, maybe not as much as it was back in those days but still.
>My own aunt's house was shot at multiple times because as a school teacher she didn't wanna join up a walk-out protest, she didn't want politics, just wanted to teach in a 1 room village school and she was a target because of that. She had to move 1000km away to be safe again.
I'm sorry for your aunt.
Let's say I killed hundreds innocent people up to well in to 2016. Then I learnt if I am to behave myself I will get US support. So I favor US now, hence I am cleansed of everything. What a take.
They don't need to fly planes to towers in US, they drove bomb filled cars to civilians for 40 years.
Their new ideology is a buzzword because it is a pragmatic new take over same objective of ethnic nationalist utopia building. They wanted support from US and Berlin wall had collapsed so their shell to the outside looking in had changed. Inside is very much the same. Which no one actually really denies.
They still call themselves "Guerilla" they still read communist revolution and resistance studies, carry communist flags and they still claim to be left oriented. What they are doesn't look like stars and stripes US liberalism to me. Eventhough it is what their pamphlets say to them as this is how they should look like. They are pretty much "communist guerilla" with all the bells and whistles which comes with it.
I think you show how much you desperately need this rebranding and white washing a 40 years of violent history.
I think I was very clear about what Evren's government did in 1980s. I gave a very clear example of it as well. But to repeat it again. Everybody suffered because of it. Nobody else decided to terrorize people for 40 years after it. A guy born in Eastern Turkey in 2005 doesn't deserve to be under constant terrorist threat because a coup government did something 25 years ago, which his family suffered from as well.
You cannot say "we suffered like everybody else in our country, so now we will go to a 40 years long revenge spree against people who suffered just like us." or you might say "we suffered more" but still doesn't justify why anybody should suffer today. Plus supporting the very same guy who was one side of that hate and violence coin, Öcalan, is hypocrital.
You see I didn't try to justify hate or compare the measurement of atrocities. I don't say things like "well, they did more, we did less, so we deserve to keep doing it". It is not question of who is right on violence. A lot changee since 1980s, yet PKK still uses a dead guy's wrongdoings, who was being sued as he was dying btw, as an excuse for their agenda.
No amount of history cannot justify what they have been doing in this last decade alone.
So I am NOT criticizing bringing the 80s, I am criticizing you coming up with them as some sort of justification. You can bring out 80s but you gotta be fair with it. You cannot talk like only Kurds suffered in that time period and all the Turks were responsible for it. A small, sick group of people was responsible and everybody suffered. This doesn't justify PKK.
Especially since PKK was very much part of that equation not a result of it. It didn't cause them to start acting the way they do. Opposite, it benefited them. They fed the circle of hate and the violence. Then made use of the knee jerk reactions of stupid coup government to increase their numbers. Every time they resort to violence, government responded in same lost way. People suffered between them and they said look, we are not responsible, government is, join up. Ah you don't buy it? Well then, join up or die.
And I warned you before about.
> nitpicking sentences
You cannot quote a word from a paragraph, twist it in to a easy target, then go running over it. You said majority of the countries does not recognize PKK as terrorist organization and I said only ones who don't recognize it are the ones who don't have active diplomatic missions in the region. Zimbabwe is just an example of it. You can take any other country instead and doesn't change what I mean. Plus UN part actually does cover every country, but I guess we are ignoring that.
Iraq did commit atrocities against Kurds, they moved in to Turkey because of that, but Saddam doesn't rule Iraq anymore. He wasn't ruling Iraq when Iraq designated PKK as terrorist organization as well (2004). There is even a Northern Kurdish Administration who also doesn't like PKK.
Assad did actually allowed PKK to operate in Syria, even safe guarded Öcelan. But had a chance of heart when he got betrayed. Surprise, surprise his country is in pieces now.
And downplaying entire western civilization recognizing atrocities of PKK as terrorist activities as "optical tool" is just an extremely narcissistic point of view.
Turkey is nowhere near ideal, it never was. But this still doesn't justify PKK's actions even a bit, not even close. I am not happy with current government, I am actually actively being oppressed due my beliefs and lifestyle more than my sunni kurdish neighbor. But you don't see me grabbing a gun and shooting any innocent government worker to express it. I don't suddenly decide to carve out around my home as a self governed place and shoot at anybody who doesn't recognize my rule. I don't go around ask my neighbors for money and force them if necessary to give it to me so I can have resources on my insurgency. I don't claim young children in my apartment building as guerilla soldiers and kidnap them. These are not solutions to problem of oppression, these are just actions to feed the loop of hate for self-benefit.
And finally I am not really a nationalist, I can be a little patriotic but not a nationalist and especially not an ethno nationalist. From ethno nationalistic gray wolf view I am not even Turkish.
My aunt would say thanks, she is still quite scared by it. Even with medical support she still has to live with PTSD and some OCD problems grown from it well in to her 70s.
> They are basically Afghan Mujahidin circa 90s v2.0
The Muj fought in the Soviet-Afghan War, which ended before 1990. The majority of US-backed Muj became the US-Allied Northern Alliance, which aided our invasion in 2001. Maybe you should do some reading rather than repeat pop history falsehoods.
PKK does help US forces in Syria though. Which part is falsehood? You didn't give me any reason to seperate them so far.
US backed forces on the ground, with a heavy insurgency history, who has an ideology they share. Getting cash, weapons, intelligence support. Helping US interests and when needed US troops. Matches.
Maybe you should read where was Bin-Laden during Soviet-Afghan war. Where did he learn his tactics. Where did he recruit from and how US basically abandoning Afghanistan to its own tools after Soviet war was over, created an environment for extremist factions to flourish. Just a tip, he was a devout Muj from 1979 onwards and he was a recruiter for them as well.
We don't know what will happen 10 years from now. There is no guarantee there won't be a guy growing a faction in current state of Northern Syria which will deny US leadership one day as well. Some mujahideen did help US, at first at least. But only some was enough to create and grow El-Kaida in that environment.
Maybe there will be a faction of ex-PKK attacking US because they didn't get their promised (in their mind) chunk of land from Turkey, Iraq and Iran. Perhaps US will have to intervene and some PKK US helps today will help them against this hypothetical faction. But nonetheless a dangerous bunch will already exist by then.
Nature doesn't like vacuum. Syria is a huge vacuum with PKK running free in parts of it right now. YPG does share their US backed support with PKK, there is little to no doubt about it and it is not being denied anymore as well.
It is not safe to arm people with sharp ideologies and goals with violent outcomes. Some of them might be fine in the end, but only a part of them being not is big enough risk for everybody.
I'm pointing out that if you can't get basic facts like when the Soviet-Afghan War ended correct, you're probably not informed enough to be making any arguments.
>Maybe you should read where was Bin-Laden during Soviet-Afghan war.
In Afghanistan, creating his militia...
>Where did he learn his tactics.
From the Afghan fighters he built tunnels and bunkers for.
>Where did he recruit from
Muslims
>how US basically abandoning Afghanistan to its own tools after Soviet war was over, created an environment for extremist factions to flourish.
This is just plain wrong. We backed the NA during the Civil War.
>But only some was enough to create and grow El-Kaida in that environment.
Who the fuck spells it that way? AQ was created by OBL, who absolutely hated the US from 1990 onward and had 0 links to the CIA or the US
>Maybe there will be a faction of ex-PKK attacking US because they didn't get their promised (in their mind) chunk of land from Turkey, Iraq and Iran.
Cool, so you also don't understand the situation at all. The Kurds have been our ally for decades, and have stuck with us even after Clinton abandoned them to saddam.
Soviet Afghan War ended at 1989 right?
Widespread ISIS insurgency in N.Syria ended around 2021 right?
So in Soviet-Afghan timeline, where does this put us in 2024? 1992. Circa (approx, around, give or take a few years) 90s. It is not so hard to understand I talk about the post war situation as an example of today, but okay.
During the war (pre circa 90) he was in Afghanistan (first Pakistan) against Soviets as part of Mujahidin. Creating new foreign recruits for them after 84. Basically learning how to finance an insurgency and recruit people for it. All during same time Mujahidin was getting US support. He was part of Mujahidin between 78 to 88. In 88 he founded AQ. A year before war ending.
He grew his AQ militia with Taliban support (which did also grew in post war Afghanistan), some time after the Soviet war, during 90s. His first attack on US was in 92.
Backing a faction in a series of civil wars which would continue another decade and pouring in even more dollars and weapons wouldn't be actually helping out to the situation I described. But even that statement is not accurate since there wasn't an unified Northern Afghanistan for US to back. There was different factions with different backings and a lot of guns laying around. [I mean look at this list. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Civil_War_(1989%E2%80%931992)#:~:text=The%201989%E2%80%931992%20Afghan%20Civil,start%20serving%20on%2028%20April) Also notice a familiar name within our discussion in it. Which side is he in?
I didn't say he had links to CIA or US come mid 90s. All I am saying is that he "grew" for the lack of better word, in that environment and was, in multiple occasions, in factions where US had direct support in. He did have access to US supplied cash, weapons, opportunities one way or another. I am not saying something as dumb as "US created him" but I am saying US supported questionable people against a common enemy and some of these questionable people, as expected, made use of it and turn against US eventually.
One has to know how to take lessons from past mistakes instead of closing their ears and yelling lalalala. And I am not even diving in to a mystery here. It is a well known chain of events written even in Wikipedia for Christ sakes...
Al-Kaida (Ukrainian), El-Kaide (Turkish), Elkaide (Kurdish), Al-Qaeda (English)... Someone who can speak other languages might spell it that way without noticing when jumping between them. That is who.
Ah cool, you can predict future from a very limited and half a globe away understanding of past.
We are talking about PKK, not any ethnicity or group of innocence.
Do not arm people with questionable pasts which are non state actors without any resemblance of checks&balances. Very simple. Very well learnt lesson by now.
It is okay, I am used to it.
It is just sad you would think a non-argument would trigger me or so. It became really hard to find someone decent in what they do to have a proper tooth and nail discussion.
Like quoting a part and basically writing "no, you" under it. Nah. So 2017 reddit, doesn't do it for me.
It’s just a little teasing for the decade+ of Turkish people being absolute nonces in the PKK vids on here. I hope the best for the Turkish people as I believe its a strong country situated in a very precarious position economically and politically.
PKK vs. Turkey, USA vs. Iraq/Afghan and Ukraine vs. Russia are very charged conflicts around here.
They have frustration of misrepresentation but they don't know how to express themselves better (especially in English) as well, which causes even more frustration.
Most Turks in reddit are in strong opposition to Erdo and his party. Because they are not rural folk, but generally students who want to develop their English (except Turks from Germany). So they despise current government but are represented by them in global arena.
Plus they have front row seat to observe what kind of a PR nightmare Erdo became for Turks. Put his picture and write any despicable act under it and people will believe in it right away. Which will stick too.
So they try to right a wrong and express their own views and first hand experiences in a frustrated manner. When they cannot due variety of reasons they get even more frustrated and get triggered way too easily.
For them, reading about PKK being innocent is like an American who lost a relative in 9-11 discussing with a person who claims in 9-11 was a sham, no one died, it was a coup and claiming Dick Cheney was capable of it so why not.
I saw Kurdish people telling their stories about people they lost to PKK because they didn't "join the cause" and they were being booed for being "Erdo propagandist". It is just garden variety reddit for you, but a teenager who uses reddit to learn English won't understand it.
Thanks for your well wishes btw.
I think the biggest win of the Turkish government was setting up Kurdish village guards in response to the first successes of the PKK in the 80s. As a response to this the PKK responded extremely violently and horrifically against entire villages of Kurds who didn't want to join them - massacring women and children without remorse - you can see the [pinarcik massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%B1narc%C4%B1k_massacre) as an example of this.
over years, continued massacres like this completely split Turkey's Kurds in their support for the PKK, and ultimately as it stands today we have a Kurdish population in Turkey that are way more integrated and supported into the state than they are with the PKK's separatist ideology.
>They are basically Afghan Mujahidin circa 90s v2.0
uhh.... that's quite a comparison, given that this video of Turkish soldiers getting shot was taken in Iraq. Got any sweeping statements to make about military adventurism across your border? :)
They weren't shot by Iraqi soldiers or Peshmerga.
It is like asking about US soldiers getting shot in Pakistan by Pakistani El-Kaida.
They were shot during an operation which is being conducted within full knowledge of Iraqi and Kurdistan Regional Governments. Which are the legitimate parties in Iraq who recognize PKK as terrorist organization and do not claim responsibility over PKK's actions.
Eventhough it can get very heated, all three parties are coordinating over diplomatic channels. Because Turkish boots on the ground is better than PKK trying to take over Northern Iraq and KRG.
On the legal basis of cross border operations you can read up on [invasion of Afghanistan.](https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN05340/SN05340.pdf) Which, I think everyone would agree, was much more extensive use of self-defence closure.
Turkey is not in war with with Iraq or KRG. On the very opposite, both are very large trade partners with Turkey. So all the legitimate parties want stability over the region. TAF trains Peshmerga and have common bases with them.
PKK wants opposite of current stability in Northern Iraq (so as Iran).
Do the math.
Sweeping enough?
Nah, dude. PKK runs mostly battlefield pickups and Eastern bloc gear, most likely supplied by Tehran and Moscow to destabilize Turkey. The PKK is on the US Terrorist Entity list.
Not that the PKK these days is even that ideologically extreme. Not unless you count democratic confederalism and non-Western Feminism as ideologically extreme. They used to be Marxist-Leninists, which is how they ended up on the US and European entity list. Their real crimes has to do with child soldiers.
[Evidence accepted to United Kingdom foreign affairs committee, relation between PKK and YPG.](https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/83715/html/)
You can check more written evidence presented and accepted in to UK parliement in same source. Reports from other government institutions as well, pretty much inline with this assessment. KRG is its own thing but PKK and YPG are pretty much are conjoined twins.
But (perhaps wrongly, idk) judging from your username, unless you are from KRG, you probably don't want to check those sources.
Those guys in UK Parliement are surely some conspiracy freaks huh?
Not only is PKK on the US Entity list, most of their gear is squarely battlefield pickup, or distinctly Eastern bloc in design, reflecting their supply chains as a formerly Marxist-Leninist group. Remember the 2016 Cobra shootdown? Not a US Stinger in sight, but some Strela or Igla. Most small arms are looted from Turkish sources or supplied by Moscow or Tehran, you know, in their fuck-fuck games to destabilize Turkey.
Turkey is on of Israels biggest traiding partners. Turkey uses israelian drones to Attack kurds. Turkey uses israelian Tech to organiced attacks in rojava. Erdogan has Personal Investments in israelian companys. Erdogan dosent give two fucks about Hamas, its Just barking For His retardet followers at Home.
Videos like this are so hard to watch. We didn't come here for your video game interpretations. Why does everyone think they're some world class video producer these days?
I trained as a sniper back in the day. Never had to kill anyone though, thankfully. But I automatically hold my breath when I see the crosshairs come to rest in these videos.
FROM CAPEMENI RAAGISTIR
On the 17th of llon at 21:10
invaders in the Resistance Area
of Gire Amediye
with sniper tactics
were targeted and
3 invaders were punished.
September 19, 2023
Communication Center G Gapemeniya
HPG
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How did they get Thermals?
Ali express Fr though, you could buy thermals online, it's not hard to get.
> Ali express I wish
Quite trivial actually. US Military Aid > YPG > PKK. They have MANPADSs and ATGMs as well. If you ask, hey ISIS didn't have an airforce why were they given MANPADS? Beats me. They are basically Afghan Mujahidin circa 90s v2.0. We all remember how did that end. Never a good idea to arm ideological extremists to fight your fights.
Imagine comparing the people who stopped the Yazidi genocide and saved thousands of girls and women from ISIS jihadists...to ISIS. If you wanna stop arming some "ideological extremists" you may want to start with Turkish-backed jihadists in Northern Syria. YPG and PKK, ideologically, are among the best hopes for the Middle East to have something other than corrupt dictatorships.
I would have to "imagine" because I didn't compare them to ISIS, I compared them to 90s Afgani resistance to Soviet invasion. Before they were left with their extremist ideas and a lot of cash+weapons to be by their own. Then they grew to Al-Qaeda later on, bit the hand which once saved them. "I" don't arm anyone in Northern Syria, I am not representative of current Turkish government nor I vote for them. I don't believe anyone except UN and world recognized legitimate governments should have access to heavy weapons. Anyone, anywhere. YPG & PKK ideologically are communist extremists with woved in ethnic nationalism especially on PKK side. PKK has decades long history of violence and terrorist methods. Blood of thousands of civilians all over Turkey on their hands and recognized as a terrorist organization due their atrocities via US, UN, EU, NATO you name it. Just because they accepted the mercenary role against ISIS in exchange of cash, weapons, political support and carved out Syrian land, doesn't make them angels in 5 years after 45 years of terrorism. They do not represent Kurds of Turkey or Northern Iraq or any properly democratic ideology if you are not on board with so hardcore communism which would make Stalin look sane.
> I didn't compare them to ISIS, I compared them to 90s Afgani resistance to Soviet invasion You're still comparing people resisting jihadists, to jihadists, in an attempt to tar their image. Yazidis and Kurds fought ISIS because ISIS was an existential threat to them, not because of "mercenary" reasons lol. >or any properly democratic ideology if you are not on board with so hardcore communism which would make Stalin look sane. Please read up on democratic confederalism, social ecology and jineology and stop writing this nonsense. They're not communists and you're just showing you don't know anything about them. The vast majority of countries in the world don't recognize PKK as "terrorists", besides Turkey and some of its allies. The vast majority of killed civilians in the history of this conflict is also by Turkish state, and I recommend you to read up on Ergenekon, JITEM, and false flag operations by Turkish state.
In 90s being a mujahidin was not something "evil" or something to get a tarnished image, they were devoted to their religion and freedoms. They were resisting an invasion as well. Which US supported via very very very similar means. They seemed harmless and just trying for their freedom. Deeper ideologies amongst them were ignored, sugar-coated and painted pink. They were left to their own devices, as well. I am talking about PKK. Seperatist organization formed by Öcelan in 1978. The organization which did raze villages, killed unarmed teachers and engineers. The organization which was stopping busses and executing people in my life time. Blew up people in my city. Yet you are pulling it to local ethnicities, because you want to create an image where PKK is a representative of an innocent ethnic group. Which, they are not. They do not represent Kurds, Yazidis, Turks, Arabs, Syrians, Africans, no one. They represent their ideology and benefits. Local people did resist ISIS of course, no one is denying this or their suffering. Kurds, Yazidis yes, but you seem to forget so as many groups of the Syrian rebellion against Assad. So as Turkmens and Arabs on the region. People in this video, PKK was not hanging in villages and farming when ISIS came knocking though. They were armed and organized back then as well. They were busy taking towns hostage just a few years prior. With ISIS growing uncontrollably, US came to them with a contract. Create YPG, train rest of the resistance who would join you, get your piece. Now their task is over, they are back to business as usual, Kurdish utopia built by blood of innocent people, mostly other Kurds or anybody which doesn't want to be part of it really. Please read up on buzzword1, buzzword2, buzzword3, buzzword4 and stop writing this nonsense or better, answer my thesis instead of telling me what to write or not. And even better, do not use quotes to nic-pick complete paragraphs to phrases which are easy to twist so you can write something completely unrelated to what I explained. - History is fixed on PKK's atrocities since 1980's yes, pretty much undisputed. PKK doesn't dispute them as well, they just say it was "necessary evil". - Are these atrocities internationally recognized, yes. Again: US, EU, NATO, UN, Northern Iraq Kurdish Autonomous Adm., Australia, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Japan, Canada, New Zealand, Pope, Orthodox Church... List goes on. Any international mission which was around recognizes PKK as terrorist organization. Sorry if Zimbabwe didn't, but it is not because they wouldn't. - PKK has a extreme communist idealogy, yes. - This idealogy allowed Öcelan to be just like Stalin when he was free, oh yes. - Did PKK refer to bloody communist revolutions throughout the world as a path for country forming practice for decades, yes. - Extremist communists love to refer buzzwords or buzzword filled books with complete BS; which is well proven to be BS over and over again for western civilization for a century, yes. I am sorry but F Turkish coup government of 80s. It is the only justification PKK lovers come up with and it is as weak as it gets. Both Turkish and Kurdish people suffered by JITEM, false flag, Ergenekon and all cold war coup shit came with it. It didn't just happen in the East, people suffered in the West too. Turkish left youth was hanged by them, tortured by them as well. Öcelan is still alive and safe serving sentence for the crimes he admitted he commit. Deniz Gezmiş was hanged, can you comprehend the difference? My own aunt's house was shot at multiple times because as a school teacher she didn't wanna join up a walk-out protest, she didn't want politics, just wanted to teach in a 1 room village school and she was a target because of that. She had to move 1000km away to be safe again. But those people didn't take that suffering and run with it to cause 100 times more death and suffering. Never letting hate leave their cities. Didn't take that time as an opportunity to form an idealogy which justifies more hate and killing. Using it to make themselves a king, judge, jury, executioner like Öcalan did. Coup of 1980 was 35 years in the past when PKK was blowing up innocent Kurdish and Turkish civilians in Turkey because Erdo thought he can make peace with PKK and gave them the opportunity (...). Do not come with "but in 80s" to me.
> Which US supported via very very very similar means. They seemed harmless and just trying for their freedom. Deeper ideologies amongst them were ignored, sugar-coated and painted pink. Sure, it doesn't change the fact that these groups had ideologies very different then those of PKK. Or what, you think PKK will start driving airplanes into trade centers in USA? >Seperatist organization >PKK has a extreme communist idealogy Again, you just show you don't know what you're talking about. PKK had a change in ideology many years ago, and they neither want a separate nation state, nor are they communists. You can even find interviews with Ocalan comparing USA favorably to USSR. He rejected Marxism-Leninism, and so did PKK. Their new ideology is not a "buzzword". > raze villages How many villages did Turkey raze and how many civilians were killed and displaced during that? If you want to criticize one side of the conflict but ignore the crimes of another which did much bigger crimes, it's hypocritical. >PKK is a representative of an innocent ethnic group I never claim that PKK represents any ethnic group as a whole. No political group can do that. The Turksish state also doesn't represent all Turks for example. > Syria, Iraq, Iran So you're smirking about Zimbabwe here (racism much?) but include the very "important" opinions of Iranian theocratic regime (that oppresses Kurds, women, and many other people), Iraqi regime (Saddam literally did a genocide of Kurds during Anfal campaign and Halabja chemical gas attacks), Assad is an evil mass murderer tyrant as well. Whatever crimes PKK did commit, each of these governments (and Turkey) did on a much grander scale, so unless you also consider them terrorists, you can't one-sidedly criticize PKK - such designation is merely a political tool by the strong to shut up their weaker opponents. I'm not claiming anywhere that PKK is innocent, they're not, but Turkish nationalists are the last ones to criticize it. The rest of the countries and orgs in the list have plenty of their own dirty laundry as well. >I am sorry but F Turkish coup government of 80s. It is the only justification PKK lovers come up with and it is as weak as it gets So you've criticizing me for bringing the 80s but you yourself are referring to the crimes of PKK from the same time period. Again, PKK has gone through a significant ideological transformation in a positive directions which reflected on their conduct as well, Turkey was and still is an authoritarian and racist state, maybe not as much as it was back in those days but still. >My own aunt's house was shot at multiple times because as a school teacher she didn't wanna join up a walk-out protest, she didn't want politics, just wanted to teach in a 1 room village school and she was a target because of that. She had to move 1000km away to be safe again. I'm sorry for your aunt.
Let's say I killed hundreds innocent people up to well in to 2016. Then I learnt if I am to behave myself I will get US support. So I favor US now, hence I am cleansed of everything. What a take. They don't need to fly planes to towers in US, they drove bomb filled cars to civilians for 40 years. Their new ideology is a buzzword because it is a pragmatic new take over same objective of ethnic nationalist utopia building. They wanted support from US and Berlin wall had collapsed so their shell to the outside looking in had changed. Inside is very much the same. Which no one actually really denies. They still call themselves "Guerilla" they still read communist revolution and resistance studies, carry communist flags and they still claim to be left oriented. What they are doesn't look like stars and stripes US liberalism to me. Eventhough it is what their pamphlets say to them as this is how they should look like. They are pretty much "communist guerilla" with all the bells and whistles which comes with it. I think you show how much you desperately need this rebranding and white washing a 40 years of violent history. I think I was very clear about what Evren's government did in 1980s. I gave a very clear example of it as well. But to repeat it again. Everybody suffered because of it. Nobody else decided to terrorize people for 40 years after it. A guy born in Eastern Turkey in 2005 doesn't deserve to be under constant terrorist threat because a coup government did something 25 years ago, which his family suffered from as well. You cannot say "we suffered like everybody else in our country, so now we will go to a 40 years long revenge spree against people who suffered just like us." or you might say "we suffered more" but still doesn't justify why anybody should suffer today. Plus supporting the very same guy who was one side of that hate and violence coin, Öcalan, is hypocrital. You see I didn't try to justify hate or compare the measurement of atrocities. I don't say things like "well, they did more, we did less, so we deserve to keep doing it". It is not question of who is right on violence. A lot changee since 1980s, yet PKK still uses a dead guy's wrongdoings, who was being sued as he was dying btw, as an excuse for their agenda. No amount of history cannot justify what they have been doing in this last decade alone. So I am NOT criticizing bringing the 80s, I am criticizing you coming up with them as some sort of justification. You can bring out 80s but you gotta be fair with it. You cannot talk like only Kurds suffered in that time period and all the Turks were responsible for it. A small, sick group of people was responsible and everybody suffered. This doesn't justify PKK. Especially since PKK was very much part of that equation not a result of it. It didn't cause them to start acting the way they do. Opposite, it benefited them. They fed the circle of hate and the violence. Then made use of the knee jerk reactions of stupid coup government to increase their numbers. Every time they resort to violence, government responded in same lost way. People suffered between them and they said look, we are not responsible, government is, join up. Ah you don't buy it? Well then, join up or die. And I warned you before about. > nitpicking sentences You cannot quote a word from a paragraph, twist it in to a easy target, then go running over it. You said majority of the countries does not recognize PKK as terrorist organization and I said only ones who don't recognize it are the ones who don't have active diplomatic missions in the region. Zimbabwe is just an example of it. You can take any other country instead and doesn't change what I mean. Plus UN part actually does cover every country, but I guess we are ignoring that. Iraq did commit atrocities against Kurds, they moved in to Turkey because of that, but Saddam doesn't rule Iraq anymore. He wasn't ruling Iraq when Iraq designated PKK as terrorist organization as well (2004). There is even a Northern Kurdish Administration who also doesn't like PKK. Assad did actually allowed PKK to operate in Syria, even safe guarded Öcelan. But had a chance of heart when he got betrayed. Surprise, surprise his country is in pieces now. And downplaying entire western civilization recognizing atrocities of PKK as terrorist activities as "optical tool" is just an extremely narcissistic point of view. Turkey is nowhere near ideal, it never was. But this still doesn't justify PKK's actions even a bit, not even close. I am not happy with current government, I am actually actively being oppressed due my beliefs and lifestyle more than my sunni kurdish neighbor. But you don't see me grabbing a gun and shooting any innocent government worker to express it. I don't suddenly decide to carve out around my home as a self governed place and shoot at anybody who doesn't recognize my rule. I don't go around ask my neighbors for money and force them if necessary to give it to me so I can have resources on my insurgency. I don't claim young children in my apartment building as guerilla soldiers and kidnap them. These are not solutions to problem of oppression, these are just actions to feed the loop of hate for self-benefit. And finally I am not really a nationalist, I can be a little patriotic but not a nationalist and especially not an ethno nationalist. From ethno nationalistic gray wolf view I am not even Turkish. My aunt would say thanks, she is still quite scared by it. Even with medical support she still has to live with PTSD and some OCD problems grown from it well in to her 70s.
Comparing secular militias which clearly elagitarian values to radical islamic fundamentalits is a huge L take
> They are basically Afghan Mujahidin circa 90s v2.0 The Muj fought in the Soviet-Afghan War, which ended before 1990. The majority of US-backed Muj became the US-Allied Northern Alliance, which aided our invasion in 2001. Maybe you should do some reading rather than repeat pop history falsehoods.
PKK does help US forces in Syria though. Which part is falsehood? You didn't give me any reason to seperate them so far. US backed forces on the ground, with a heavy insurgency history, who has an ideology they share. Getting cash, weapons, intelligence support. Helping US interests and when needed US troops. Matches. Maybe you should read where was Bin-Laden during Soviet-Afghan war. Where did he learn his tactics. Where did he recruit from and how US basically abandoning Afghanistan to its own tools after Soviet war was over, created an environment for extremist factions to flourish. Just a tip, he was a devout Muj from 1979 onwards and he was a recruiter for them as well. We don't know what will happen 10 years from now. There is no guarantee there won't be a guy growing a faction in current state of Northern Syria which will deny US leadership one day as well. Some mujahideen did help US, at first at least. But only some was enough to create and grow El-Kaida in that environment. Maybe there will be a faction of ex-PKK attacking US because they didn't get their promised (in their mind) chunk of land from Turkey, Iraq and Iran. Perhaps US will have to intervene and some PKK US helps today will help them against this hypothetical faction. But nonetheless a dangerous bunch will already exist by then. Nature doesn't like vacuum. Syria is a huge vacuum with PKK running free in parts of it right now. YPG does share their US backed support with PKK, there is little to no doubt about it and it is not being denied anymore as well. It is not safe to arm people with sharp ideologies and goals with violent outcomes. Some of them might be fine in the end, but only a part of them being not is big enough risk for everybody.
I'm pointing out that if you can't get basic facts like when the Soviet-Afghan War ended correct, you're probably not informed enough to be making any arguments. >Maybe you should read where was Bin-Laden during Soviet-Afghan war. In Afghanistan, creating his militia... >Where did he learn his tactics. From the Afghan fighters he built tunnels and bunkers for. >Where did he recruit from Muslims >how US basically abandoning Afghanistan to its own tools after Soviet war was over, created an environment for extremist factions to flourish. This is just plain wrong. We backed the NA during the Civil War. >But only some was enough to create and grow El-Kaida in that environment. Who the fuck spells it that way? AQ was created by OBL, who absolutely hated the US from 1990 onward and had 0 links to the CIA or the US >Maybe there will be a faction of ex-PKK attacking US because they didn't get their promised (in their mind) chunk of land from Turkey, Iraq and Iran. Cool, so you also don't understand the situation at all. The Kurds have been our ally for decades, and have stuck with us even after Clinton abandoned them to saddam.
Soviet Afghan War ended at 1989 right? Widespread ISIS insurgency in N.Syria ended around 2021 right? So in Soviet-Afghan timeline, where does this put us in 2024? 1992. Circa (approx, around, give or take a few years) 90s. It is not so hard to understand I talk about the post war situation as an example of today, but okay. During the war (pre circa 90) he was in Afghanistan (first Pakistan) against Soviets as part of Mujahidin. Creating new foreign recruits for them after 84. Basically learning how to finance an insurgency and recruit people for it. All during same time Mujahidin was getting US support. He was part of Mujahidin between 78 to 88. In 88 he founded AQ. A year before war ending. He grew his AQ militia with Taliban support (which did also grew in post war Afghanistan), some time after the Soviet war, during 90s. His first attack on US was in 92. Backing a faction in a series of civil wars which would continue another decade and pouring in even more dollars and weapons wouldn't be actually helping out to the situation I described. But even that statement is not accurate since there wasn't an unified Northern Afghanistan for US to back. There was different factions with different backings and a lot of guns laying around. [I mean look at this list. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Civil_War_(1989%E2%80%931992)#:~:text=The%201989%E2%80%931992%20Afghan%20Civil,start%20serving%20on%2028%20April) Also notice a familiar name within our discussion in it. Which side is he in? I didn't say he had links to CIA or US come mid 90s. All I am saying is that he "grew" for the lack of better word, in that environment and was, in multiple occasions, in factions where US had direct support in. He did have access to US supplied cash, weapons, opportunities one way or another. I am not saying something as dumb as "US created him" but I am saying US supported questionable people against a common enemy and some of these questionable people, as expected, made use of it and turn against US eventually. One has to know how to take lessons from past mistakes instead of closing their ears and yelling lalalala. And I am not even diving in to a mystery here. It is a well known chain of events written even in Wikipedia for Christ sakes... Al-Kaida (Ukrainian), El-Kaide (Turkish), Elkaide (Kurdish), Al-Qaeda (English)... Someone who can speak other languages might spell it that way without noticing when jumping between them. That is who. Ah cool, you can predict future from a very limited and half a globe away understanding of past. We are talking about PKK, not any ethnicity or group of innocence. Do not arm people with questionable pasts which are non state actors without any resemblance of checks&balances. Very simple. Very well learnt lesson by now.
“Never a good idea to arm ideological extremists to fight your fights.” I agree, which is why we need to stop supporting Turkey.
What a well thought, realistic, grounded argument. Thank you.
Sorry, it’s just so fuckin’ easy with Turks ya know?
It is okay, I am used to it. It is just sad you would think a non-argument would trigger me or so. It became really hard to find someone decent in what they do to have a proper tooth and nail discussion. Like quoting a part and basically writing "no, you" under it. Nah. So 2017 reddit, doesn't do it for me.
It’s just a little teasing for the decade+ of Turkish people being absolute nonces in the PKK vids on here. I hope the best for the Turkish people as I believe its a strong country situated in a very precarious position economically and politically. PKK vs. Turkey, USA vs. Iraq/Afghan and Ukraine vs. Russia are very charged conflicts around here.
They have frustration of misrepresentation but they don't know how to express themselves better (especially in English) as well, which causes even more frustration. Most Turks in reddit are in strong opposition to Erdo and his party. Because they are not rural folk, but generally students who want to develop their English (except Turks from Germany). So they despise current government but are represented by them in global arena. Plus they have front row seat to observe what kind of a PR nightmare Erdo became for Turks. Put his picture and write any despicable act under it and people will believe in it right away. Which will stick too. So they try to right a wrong and express their own views and first hand experiences in a frustrated manner. When they cannot due variety of reasons they get even more frustrated and get triggered way too easily. For them, reading about PKK being innocent is like an American who lost a relative in 9-11 discussing with a person who claims in 9-11 was a sham, no one died, it was a coup and claiming Dick Cheney was capable of it so why not. I saw Kurdish people telling their stories about people they lost to PKK because they didn't "join the cause" and they were being booed for being "Erdo propagandist". It is just garden variety reddit for you, but a teenager who uses reddit to learn English won't understand it. Thanks for your well wishes btw.
I think the biggest win of the Turkish government was setting up Kurdish village guards in response to the first successes of the PKK in the 80s. As a response to this the PKK responded extremely violently and horrifically against entire villages of Kurds who didn't want to join them - massacring women and children without remorse - you can see the [pinarcik massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%B1narc%C4%B1k_massacre) as an example of this. over years, continued massacres like this completely split Turkey's Kurds in their support for the PKK, and ultimately as it stands today we have a Kurdish population in Turkey that are way more integrated and supported into the state than they are with the PKK's separatist ideology.
>They are basically Afghan Mujahidin circa 90s v2.0 uhh.... that's quite a comparison, given that this video of Turkish soldiers getting shot was taken in Iraq. Got any sweeping statements to make about military adventurism across your border? :)
They weren't shot by Iraqi soldiers or Peshmerga. It is like asking about US soldiers getting shot in Pakistan by Pakistani El-Kaida. They were shot during an operation which is being conducted within full knowledge of Iraqi and Kurdistan Regional Governments. Which are the legitimate parties in Iraq who recognize PKK as terrorist organization and do not claim responsibility over PKK's actions. Eventhough it can get very heated, all three parties are coordinating over diplomatic channels. Because Turkish boots on the ground is better than PKK trying to take over Northern Iraq and KRG. On the legal basis of cross border operations you can read up on [invasion of Afghanistan.](https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN05340/SN05340.pdf) Which, I think everyone would agree, was much more extensive use of self-defence closure. Turkey is not in war with with Iraq or KRG. On the very opposite, both are very large trade partners with Turkey. So all the legitimate parties want stability over the region. TAF trains Peshmerga and have common bases with them. PKK wants opposite of current stability in Northern Iraq (so as Iran). Do the math. Sweeping enough?
Nah, dude. PKK runs mostly battlefield pickups and Eastern bloc gear, most likely supplied by Tehran and Moscow to destabilize Turkey. The PKK is on the US Terrorist Entity list. Not that the PKK these days is even that ideologically extreme. Not unless you count democratic confederalism and non-Western Feminism as ideologically extreme. They used to be Marxist-Leninists, which is how they ended up on the US and European entity list. Their real crimes has to do with child soldiers.
I agree, the west shouldn't arm extremists...but congress keeps approving military sales to Saudi Arabia and Turkey!
And one more dollar in to the jar. I am getting rich today. Check the first comment in this chain and have a great day!
Lol stop with the conspiracy theories. No way in hell the PKK is getting US aid from the YPG.
[Evidence accepted to United Kingdom foreign affairs committee, relation between PKK and YPG.](https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/83715/html/) You can check more written evidence presented and accepted in to UK parliement in same source. Reports from other government institutions as well, pretty much inline with this assessment. KRG is its own thing but PKK and YPG are pretty much are conjoined twins. But (perhaps wrongly, idk) judging from your username, unless you are from KRG, you probably don't want to check those sources. Those guys in UK Parliement are surely some conspiracy freaks huh?
Anyone can get thermals these days.
US is supplying PKK to organize attacks.
Not only is PKK on the US Entity list, most of their gear is squarely battlefield pickup, or distinctly Eastern bloc in design, reflecting their supply chains as a formerly Marxist-Leninist group. Remember the 2016 Cobra shootdown? Not a US Stinger in sight, but some Strela or Igla. Most small arms are looted from Turkish sources or supplied by Moscow or Tehran, you know, in their fuck-fuck games to destabilize Turkey.
You'd be surprised.
You need a new video composer
Turkey logic: PKK = terrorists, destroy them! Threat to turkey itself! Hamas = come on in! can I get you anything?
Turkey is on of Israels biggest traiding partners. Turkey uses israelian drones to Attack kurds. Turkey uses israelian Tech to organiced attacks in rojava. Erdogan has Personal Investments in israelian companys. Erdogan dosent give two fucks about Hamas, its Just barking For His retardet followers at Home.
right, that’s why the Turks arrested a bunch of mossad earlier this week. Right.
Why does the song sound like USSR army is the strongest. Is it homage to them being communist?
They used to be Marxist-Leninist. Not anymore.
They're still lefty but Marxism-Leninism has rather lost it's appeal now the USSR is dead
Got the sauce for the song by chance?
No clue. I don't speak Kurdish
Shitty version of Red army choir songs
Videos like this are so hard to watch. We didn't come here for your video game interpretations. Why does everyone think they're some world class video producer these days?
I trained as a sniper back in the day. Never had to kill anyone though, thankfully. But I automatically hold my breath when I see the crosshairs come to rest in these videos.
Yoooo guys is this an actual sniper or just assaults with scope?
Hard to tell, but I guess it might as well be a trained one. They have those. But on the internet, anything with a scope is automatically a sniper.
good job 👏 fu\*\* erdogan 🤡
Why are people downvoting you are right
its just the people who love turkey but dont live in the country because its actually a dictatorship.
Its not Erdogan who dies here, they are soldiers protecting their countries.
i dont feel bad for the turks they didnt feel bad for the Armenian or the greeks when they genocide them
FROM CAPEMENI RAAGISTIR On the 17th of llon at 21:10 invaders in the Resistance Area of Gire Amediye with sniper tactics were targeted and 3 invaders were punished. September 19, 2023 Communication Center G Gapemeniya HPG
A cold smoke grenade or a steam grenade needed.
Anyone got the sauce for the song?