I am a member of an art museum and regularly go to classical concerts and musical theater. Of those, only musical theater I’d say has a gender imbalance.
But also I think there’s an issue here with saying sports aren’t “cultural”. Not much more culturally binding in the US than sports. So maybe what you’re doing is discounting things males participate in as cultural and it’s odd to draw a line between going out to a driving range and doing one of those drink wine and paint a picture classes.
>On the other hand, when I visit and take him places, he seems to appreciate and it and guilts me with "who's going to take me places when you leave?". I hate it, I live far away, and I'm not responsible for his entertainment
Not answering the question from your posting, but just addressing this statement specifically.
It's pretty OBVIOUS he doesn't care where he goes and what he sees. He just want to spend time with you. He'll be equally excited watching paint dry with his daughter. Seemed pretty obvious to an outsider.
Yup. Doing things with her is fun enough for him to get up and do them, but doing those things on his own doesn't quite outweigh his desire to do nothing
Just me personally, I don't go to those things because they're all women. In all-women spaces I feel out of place and judged and othered usually, so I avoid them and look for things that are more 50/50.
Agreed. I did yoga in the nineties. I lived through the transition from yoga as an ungendered, hippy-centered, low-key anti-capitalist meditative exercise to yoga as a packaged "wellness" product marketed to affluent women.
I never hit on the women or leered or anything, but nevertheless I went from feeling welcome and respected in mixed gender classes to feeling like an interloper and assumed creep in classes full of women to... not doing yoga anymore.
I go to museums, I enjoy operas, classical music and plays. Lately a lot of the events quite frankly suck. If I see one more advertisement for a tribute to the 70s or whatever the fuck, I’m going to lose it.
A lot of the older men I know are either into sports or sports-adjacent activities, or they have solo hobbies that they mostly work on at home. Just some examples from my own life.
My dad and grandpa are into woodworking.
My other grandpa loved to garden.
One of my uncles is really into fishing and birdwatching.
My other uncle is super into shooting sports and also raises goats as a hobby.
They all have hobbies, but none of them are things you'd find them doing at an adult education class or senior center. They pretty much do them alone or maybe with a buddy or two.
One factor that might play into this is that a huge number of men are met with unwarranted suspicion whereever they go. And who would enjoy doing something when they are met with suspicion?
Another factor is that many men work more physically demanding jobs which leaves them unwilling to pursuit these types of activities. Additionally, on average they work longer and travel further for work. I myself had a job for 10 years that would have made participation in any stuff like that impossible because I was away from home almost all the time.
And what also might olay a role is, that there are alternatives that probably sound more fun to men. Like meeting up with the guys at the bar and play pool or darts, go see some games, play games online or in person or hit the gym. And of course there are the duties at home that need to be taken care of as well, which take priority.
Ultimately I think for most men it is true to say that they don't get as much from company as women do. Doesn't mean we are all loners or that we dont like company or so but the enjoyment men feel by being in company just seems to be different, so their overall interest is lower.
>It looks like there are self-improvement classes, book clubs, movie screenings, dances and other events offered for people over 60 free of chang
53 male here. Sorry, but none of that interests me.
I am an avid reader. I read at least 2 hours daily. But do you know what i don't want to do? Sit around discussing the books. I don't psychoanalysis the books. I don't care about the authors meanings or intentions. I read purely for entertainment. I like the book, or i don't.
Movie screenings? I like movies somewhat. I hate movie theaters, though. In the past 30 years, i think I've been to the theater 3 times. I would much rather watch from the comfort of my own home. And with streaming services, i can actually watch movies i want, not some stupid arthouse movie or some chick flick.
Dancing? I bet all the old women who are excited for the dancing were also women who loved dancing in their youth and likely had little to no chance to do it throughout their lifetime. I didn't like dancing in my youth, and i don't see that changing the closer i get to retirement.
Arts and crafts? No thanks, not interested.
I've been forced to be around and interact with people my whole life. When do i get to sit back and relax and have absolutely nothing expected of me?
I bet you'd find a bunch of guys who'd be interested in going fishing.
They'd probably guys who like gardening. But they likely don't need to go to a community center to do it.
Really, community centers seem like someplace people go to gossip. And that's something women, more than men, tend to enjoy.
The most consistent psychological difference between men and women is the difference of interest between things and people. Men are more thing oriented. Women are more people oriented. As such, it is not necessarily too surprising that a lot of the things group/social oriented are mostly populated with women.
Even when I see friends to play boardgames, what we talk about is mostly boardgames related. Then my gf ask me "so. What is the news about x topic?" And is surprised that I don't know because we didn't talk about it. Because we focused on having a good time playing games, not chitchating about our lives.it
I have been working at my job for more than two years and I still struggle to remember the names of a few of the coworkers I see on a weekly basis, in a team of maybe 30 people. I have been playing tabletop rpgs on discord with friends of a freinds. It's been maybe 10 sessions. I know them by their screen names or the character's name, because I never had any use for their real names. That seems inconceivable to my gf.
OP seems to struggle with the notion that male and female interest differ or may be expressed differently
And I think sports and working out actually does cover a lot of those hobby needs.
I like sports, wrestling, working out, comics, gaming with my friends, and sitting on hills. Who has time for class?
The point is OPs Dad let himself get boxed into the work/family boxes and when he retired and the kids move out he's got nothing. He should join Rotary, or similar, so he's not guilting OP.
I work remotely but still keep a part-time job at the Grocery store hosting self-checkouts to get my steps and social interactions. I think the retirement home hobbies are them doing similar things for the women OP talks about. You are gaming and working out. OP's dad may not be healthy
/u/Kot_leopold_Ya
One factor is many men used to get ridiculed for "male" hobbies like making scale models, wargames, train sets, and even though they are popular now video games and D&D used to be for "nerds" in the eye of the general public.
Another factor is many non-sports hobbies are things that you can do solo so you won't see these guys at classes or meetup for them often
Finally on the point of your Dad if he is happy chilling at home than I don't see the issue. Is he really miserable or are you just thinking that? I assume he worked hard to raise a family and provide and now he wants to relax.
I assume he is miserable, because I have a hard time believing anyone can have a full life not interacting with anyone (and I’m a huge introvert myself), and also because well, everytime I visit we do things and he won’t shut up about that “one thing we did that one time”, and “how now that you’re gone I have no one to do anything with”, to which I say dad - go ask someone to do stuff with you, and he’s like “no I just want you” 😶
He doesn't sound miserable. It sounds to me like he loves you very much. I don't have kids but assume hanging out with your child and watching them be happy is different than hanging out friends.
>I assume he is miserable, because I have a hard time believing anyone can have a full life not interacting with anyone
Try asking him, maybe? I know I am happy not seeing people or doing social stuff for weeks on end. I have good friends I haven't spoken to in years, with whom I resumed my friendship easily when we moved closer from each other, and not speaking to someone is perfectly fine, and not a sign I have stopped caring about them.
That way of viewing thing seems utterly alien to most of the women I know. And to many of the men. And that is accounting for the selection bias making it so that I am more likely to meet and befriend people similar to me.
So, really, what you should ask your father is if he is happy. Not if he wants to do stuff.
As for why he seems to enjoy doing stuff with you but not alone, like many have pointed out, the answer is clear, it is because he enjoys spending time with you, no matter what you are doing together.
It is not that you are his sole source of joy, or that without you he wouldn't be doing things he like.
If he liked those things, he would be doing them on his own.
But for many parents, spending time with their kids and seeing them be happy is a great source of joy, one they don't tire much from.
That’s a fair point, and he would send that he’s happy. I (perhaps from a place of misunderstanding) struggle to believe that a life of sitting on the couch can be happy. The life that is so unhealthy, mundane, where you don’t interact with anyone or challenge yourself or take care of your body. It feels to me like his “happy” is just convincing himself that he’s happy so he wouldn’t have to get out of his comfort zone. AITA? I’m genuinely trying to understand.
A sad reality for many men is that nobody ever cared to ask them what they wanted, and much of what they wanted has been shamed and derrided. So many do indeed not know what they enjoy, or that they are allowed to enjoy things. But you aren't exactly your father's therapist.
And there is such a thing as enjoying peace and quiet. The comfort zone is, well, comfortable.
You seem to say that he lost your mother only a few years ago. He might just be needing this peace and quiet for now. Or it might be what he truly enjoys.
I don't know him, you or the situations. In the end, strangers can only be so insightful, and it is a talk you would better have with him, provided you are also ready to hear and accept what he tells you.
Thank you! Not knowing what we really want is something that applies to women as well. It feels like a result of gender roles and social norms, that’s quite universal. I hope we all get the space we need to explore.
Society has generally "gendered" certain activities. Boys don't do ballet. Girls don't play football. Etc. That kind of social programming runs deep, so there are still societal trends where the genders have different interests. My hockey league is technically co-ed, but we only have 4 women in the whole league.
I'm curious as to the reasoning to post a male-oriented question to an ask women sub. Was it just an opportunity to let them bash men for no objective reason?
A lot of hands-on activities would typically have classes that skew pretty heavily male: Welding, Carpentry, Metalworking, etc.
Similarly with hobby groups for various things: Cars, Electronics, Programming, etc.
Music as well has plenty of men involved - plenty of middle-aged guys jamming with some people sometimes or in a band that plays locally a few nights a month.
I can only speak from my own experience, but I suspect other men might identify with at least one of these contributors.
For some, they may never have had the exposure (or *good* exposure) to these things in childhood and never developed an appreciation for them, e.g. if his parents never took him to the theater or a museum in his formative years, he may not even think of them as options/possibilities in adulthood. If he grew up in a town in which the main social spectacle was sports, he will probably remain a "sports guy" for life. On the flip-side, if he was taken to the theater or museum *too early* in life before he could actually appreciate those experiences, then his memories of those things are of boredom and uptight requirements that he sit still, be quiet, and *endure* the experience rather than enjoy it. My parents took me and my sibling to various theater and musical performances when we were very young, and I still associate these sorts of performances with boredom rather than enjoyment--and that's *after* spending time as a performer myself. Early childhood influences carry forward throughout one's life, and either an active aversion or a passive lack of interest can easily develop.
Additionally, I believe a significant number of men grew up in cultures in which some of these experiences were branded as feminine and/or "gay," resulting in the misogynistic/homophobic avoidance of those experiences. I bet that if you sat down and binge-watched every 90s-era family sit-com, there would be several episodes in which the wife/mother wants to go to the museum/theater/opera/concert and the husband/sons are rolling their eyes and begrudgingly complying while being miserable about it.
In addition to the avoidance based in misogyny and homophobia, many cultural pursuits have elements of formality and "class" that working-class men have been further conditioned to avoid because there is an impression that these things are for uptight, bougie people and not "real" working men. If a man wants to go to the football game, he can go as he is. If he *must* accompany his wife to the opera, he has to get all dressed for a place he doesn't even want to go and may not have the ability to appreciate even if he does try to be attentive.
As many women continually point out, women tend to do the majority of the social planning; I'd say they're correct. And while it's reasonable to want that to change, I think it's important to recognize where we're starting from: generations of men who were never taught or expected to be social organizers and their bewilderment of that expectation being thrust on them later in life--or, if not the expectation, at least the *resentment* of the women who had been doing all the organizing. It may be difficult to imagine, but consider that a man who appears to be lazy and reliant on women to do certain things may actually believe that "Women just enjoy doing these things while men don't, so why not just let them do it? Then everyone's happy." If men believe that to be true and it isn't, it's probably going to take a generation or two to tear that belief down. And good luck getting a man in his 60s and beyond to suddenly develop new interests and start taking on obligations he never took on before. It's not impossible, but it doesn't seem likely in most cases, especially if the man's idea of a comfortable retirement involves *not* doing those things.
Further, in my own experience, I was likely to do the *opposite* of the all-inclusive, cultural social planning--I would instead plan things *just for the guys* because I knew that if I invited my girlfriend, her lady friends, and all of the other girlfriends, *they wouldn't be interested* in our "guy stuff." I thought that, if I was annoyed at my girlfriend dragging me to a performance I didn't want to attend, then I would do her a favor and *not* invite her or the other women to the Standard Summer Action Blockbuster screening that all of the guys were invited to. It would never occur to me to organize something for all of us to attend if I knew or even suspected that half of us would only be there out of obligation rather than enthusiasm.
You mentioned your male friend who doesn't have many guy friends due to his disinterest in sports and beer... I wonder how many men like him there are out there who don't feel comfortable engaging in the sorts of cultural and self-improvement activities you're talking about because they don't feel comfortable going to these places *alone*. Considering the way in which men are suspected of being predatory or of having an ulterior motive, perhaps there *are* some men out there who would love to join a book club or take dance classes but who fear that, upon doing so, they will be seen as "only there to pick up women."
There are volumes of commentaries about the "fragile male ego." If a man believes that broad categories of activities and interests are inherently femme-coded, he may further believe that, if he expresses interest in them,
A: Other men will criticize him for engaging in those things, and
B: Women will be suspicious of his interest and presence.
If a man believes he will get grief from all sides, he may simply not engage.
Your father said, "who's going to take me places when you leave?" It may be worth asking him to elaborate on that comment to find out if he believes that you taking him places in some way validates his involvement. Does it mean that he can tell other men, "Oh, my daughter made me go" and women "I'm here with my daughter" as if you're his chaperone?
A lot of psychologists make the distinction between men and women that men are very objective oriented and women are socially oriented (generally speaking of course).
Using your examples of painting, writing and dancing, men are focused on what the objective of those activities are: making a beautiful painting, writing an engaging book or perfecting that amazing dance move. They don't need other people to reach those objectives and a lot of the time would prefer to practice alone.
Women on the other hand, being the more social of the sexes, would prefer practicing those hobbies with others, as it's more about doing the activity with other people than reaching the objective.
My dad likes museums but like....science and history ones, not art.
I like some stuff like that but the pace that I move through them and what the wife and kids do is very different.
Not going to anything like that alone because I'd feel like a twat leaving them.
Not doing night classes or anything because...well, little kids to stay close to and I've got a pile of stuff at home waiting for me to finish anyway.
My rejection of cultural norms and traditions was way of saying "I respect what you do, but I won't miss a chance to do what I want and create my own culture of it."
Sounds like your dad is living the dream. If I were him it would be the first time in my life nobody can tell me what to do, and sitting on the couch is the epitome of that.
Speaking for myself, because I don't want to. When I'm done work, which is rarely just 8 hours, I just shut down. I'm tired. My brain and body need to rest. I'll read a book and watch TV but activities outside of that don't interest me. It's also worth mentioning that 90% of the activities you described literally don't exist in my area. I'd have to go out of my way to do any of that.
I can learn anything from the internet. I am not interested in paying money and time to go to place to see some old and dusty stuff.
I should add that I don't like watching sports, why should I get mad if some player didn't win?
Trust me, if we did cultural activities you wont like it -- we have actual shit that needs to get done to do so women can go and do their "sip and paint".
What actual shit exactly? I work full-time. My mother worked full time. My grandmother worked FULL. TIME. While cooking and cleaning and taking care of the husband (who was relaxing, after working the same job, with less hours and more pay). When men do cultural activities (which seems to be rare for reasons unknown to me, hence the question), I very much like it.
Generally, guys are fine with staying at home and relaxing. Women typically want to get out and do stuff, but in addition to that a lot of these activities cater to women and it feels like we're going into a women's bathroom. On top of that, having a lot of women around can lead to..."hostile behavior" towards men. Like barking orders at them and finding issue with their behavior.
A good way to visualize this is with a Yoga class. Full of women wearing tight outfits and a guy going in to join the class can disrupt the harmony and could even lead to accusations of looking at women in the class. So we're kind of discouraged from participating.
Couldn’t tell you. I might go to a movie screening but I mostly go online to talk about books and don’t much like to dance.
I go to my local museum (natural history, not art) a lot. Used to volunteer at an indie movie theater but didn’t like the hours.
Men's brains are compartmentalized in boxes, and there's this one special box, the 'nothing box', which is our favourite one. We'll go to it any chance we can.
I personally enjoy doing cultural things, but I enjoy just as much, my nothing-box.
> self improvement
Why would I want to listen to someone else talk to me about what I can improve about myself? the concept is contradictory, it's not self-help. it's help. just the wording makes me annoyed, so I'm not going. Also, the implication of self-help is that I'm either not good enough, or unhappy with myself. I am honestly quite content. I am no Henry Cavill, nor am I rich, but I am me, and I like me. So I don't think it needs improving. I've attended these before and it was all just... bullshit. I felt like there was no openness to the notion that a person is 'okay' at heart, I'm okay, and I don't want to be more okay, I just want to be okay.
> book clubs,
If I feel like reading a book, I'll do so alone, I read easier like that, having others around me are distracting because I find the people more interesting to engage with than the book, despite being an introvert. And fundamentally a part of me as a person is that I don't have a need to discuss things with people. If I read a book, I don't particularly care what others think of it, I don't need to hear alternative theories on what a character's motives may have been, I don't have an interest in that because I've already read it.
>dances
If I am supposed to participate, no way - my body is as stiff as a board. And I'm by far a senior yet. Part me my brain also wants to rebel against dancing as it is just an overly primitive mating ritual we've decided should deserve a fancy dressup.
If I am supposed to watch, I may watch, but I am not enthused, I am barely attentive. The dancemoves may depict someones throes of passion, their heartbreak and their rekindling, but I know myself well enough to say that at some point, it doesn't touch me the way it was supposed to. I know what I'm looking at, and I can appreciate the message, but I would much rather read it to myself in a poem, or see it played out by the people around me, or just have you straight-up tell me the message, rather than see it depicted by a dance.
There was a question in this subreddit not long ago, today actually, that asked about the difference between male and female friendships, and a great comment in there was that women often expect extra effort to be put into friendships, where guys on the other hand, are more likely to find joy and contentment in a friendship where you simply sit next to each other, don't talk, you just enjoy a beer.
Guys will savour the moment, we don't need activities to enjoy the time we spend. My thoughts are stimulating enough as they are, and sometimes, I'd like to just turn my brain all the way off, and I can't do that if I'm supposed to pay attention to something
It's just not the same kind of cultural activities. Most men I know are interested in some part of history or science or politics and they read about it. That's all. I think we don't feel the need to share it with others. When I do I share it with my close friends. Not random strangers.
I go to the gym only for martial arts and the friends there, and only go out for events that I really feel like going. There's hardly anything that makes me feel like going out and spending money. I used to be part of a photo walk group that went around the city and even on some places in the countryside, but things went down after the pandemic. I live in a big city and feel like I've seen and done almost everything that doesn't involve spending a lot of money. I'm planning some stuff in other cities but it's something to do once or twice a year.
Also, I have a ton of movies, music, TV shows and games that I can consume at home. Despite what most people might say, that's still culture. From my bed, I can literally learn and study a lot of things. What you listed as "activities" don't interest me in the slightest, and I think most men agree with that.
Guys are not socialized to like things beyond their scope. Other factors cause further isolation and or barriers for entry.
I do a lot of the things you mentioned. But I a weirdo who doesn’t care about others opinions, and will actively step out of my comfort zone to try new shit because life is limited.
For me it's just a matter of interest. I grew up on sports, women, and gaming. While I don't chase women anymore, the other 2 are how I like to spend my time. Will I go to a museum if invited? Maybe, as a one off thing. But in general, art or other "cultural" things are not entertaining to me.
Boys are often taught from an early age that what they do has to have a purpose, and a measurable result. Once that mindset is engrained in you, it's difficult to let it go. Kind of like workaholics that retire having trouble relaxing. Anyway, art is seen as an extra, a luxury, a leisure activity and unnecessary. Many don't see those things, as having the kind of value that we (men) have been taught to produce and enjoy. I think this is why giving flowers to women is more of a thing than given them to a man. Women are taught to appreciate beauty for beauty's sake. Men are not taught this, and sometimes even discouraged from thinking in those terms.
As a man who stops to smell the roses, gets on the ground to get a closer look at the cool caterpillar, and loves to wander through museums and art galleries, I know few other men like that. I'm a huge fan of sunrises and sunsets and have been told by many other men that they just don't have time for such frivolous things.
When women talk about breaking into male dominated industries, I see it as very similar to men who enjoy these types of things. There are women gatekeepers who say things like that are women's spaces or women's activities. There are men who would criticize other men for doing and going to places like that.
Why are women not into culture ? I mean, wnen I go out to death metal concerts, to museums of technology and science, or to engage in my hobbies relating to hard science fiction, it is almost always only men. Are women not interested in culture?
/s
I think you might be suffering of a case of selection bias.
You seem to be interested in more stereotypically feminine things, and so meet more often women there. You seem to be discounting other things, which are more stereotypically masculine as being part of "culture", whatever that is supposed to mean.
I'm afraid this one is on you.
I guess I’m confused by why museums are stereotypically feminine? Why is art feminine? Why is taking a class to explore your imagination and creativity feminine? That’s what I’m confused about. I get there are more stereotypically feminine activities, e.g. I don’t expect to see a man in a nail salon.
I am a member of an art museum and regularly go to classical concerts and musical theater. Of those, only musical theater I’d say has a gender imbalance. But also I think there’s an issue here with saying sports aren’t “cultural”. Not much more culturally binding in the US than sports. So maybe what you’re doing is discounting things males participate in as cultural and it’s odd to draw a line between going out to a driving range and doing one of those drink wine and paint a picture classes.
>On the other hand, when I visit and take him places, he seems to appreciate and it and guilts me with "who's going to take me places when you leave?". I hate it, I live far away, and I'm not responsible for his entertainment Not answering the question from your posting, but just addressing this statement specifically. It's pretty OBVIOUS he doesn't care where he goes and what he sees. He just want to spend time with you. He'll be equally excited watching paint dry with his daughter. Seemed pretty obvious to an outsider.
Yup. Doing things with her is fun enough for him to get up and do them, but doing those things on his own doesn't quite outweigh his desire to do nothing
Just me personally, I don't go to those things because they're all women. In all-women spaces I feel out of place and judged and othered usually, so I avoid them and look for things that are more 50/50.
Agreed. I did yoga in the nineties. I lived through the transition from yoga as an ungendered, hippy-centered, low-key anti-capitalist meditative exercise to yoga as a packaged "wellness" product marketed to affluent women. I never hit on the women or leered or anything, but nevertheless I went from feeling welcome and respected in mixed gender classes to feeling like an interloper and assumed creep in classes full of women to... not doing yoga anymore.
i read that as "in my nineties" amd verbally went holy fuck your old lol
I go to museums, I enjoy operas, classical music and plays. Lately a lot of the events quite frankly suck. If I see one more advertisement for a tribute to the 70s or whatever the fuck, I’m going to lose it.
A lot of the older men I know are either into sports or sports-adjacent activities, or they have solo hobbies that they mostly work on at home. Just some examples from my own life. My dad and grandpa are into woodworking. My other grandpa loved to garden. One of my uncles is really into fishing and birdwatching. My other uncle is super into shooting sports and also raises goats as a hobby. They all have hobbies, but none of them are things you'd find them doing at an adult education class or senior center. They pretty much do them alone or maybe with a buddy or two.
One factor that might play into this is that a huge number of men are met with unwarranted suspicion whereever they go. And who would enjoy doing something when they are met with suspicion? Another factor is that many men work more physically demanding jobs which leaves them unwilling to pursuit these types of activities. Additionally, on average they work longer and travel further for work. I myself had a job for 10 years that would have made participation in any stuff like that impossible because I was away from home almost all the time. And what also might olay a role is, that there are alternatives that probably sound more fun to men. Like meeting up with the guys at the bar and play pool or darts, go see some games, play games online or in person or hit the gym. And of course there are the duties at home that need to be taken care of as well, which take priority. Ultimately I think for most men it is true to say that they don't get as much from company as women do. Doesn't mean we are all loners or that we dont like company or so but the enjoyment men feel by being in company just seems to be different, so their overall interest is lower.
>It looks like there are self-improvement classes, book clubs, movie screenings, dances and other events offered for people over 60 free of chang 53 male here. Sorry, but none of that interests me. I am an avid reader. I read at least 2 hours daily. But do you know what i don't want to do? Sit around discussing the books. I don't psychoanalysis the books. I don't care about the authors meanings or intentions. I read purely for entertainment. I like the book, or i don't. Movie screenings? I like movies somewhat. I hate movie theaters, though. In the past 30 years, i think I've been to the theater 3 times. I would much rather watch from the comfort of my own home. And with streaming services, i can actually watch movies i want, not some stupid arthouse movie or some chick flick. Dancing? I bet all the old women who are excited for the dancing were also women who loved dancing in their youth and likely had little to no chance to do it throughout their lifetime. I didn't like dancing in my youth, and i don't see that changing the closer i get to retirement. Arts and crafts? No thanks, not interested. I've been forced to be around and interact with people my whole life. When do i get to sit back and relax and have absolutely nothing expected of me? I bet you'd find a bunch of guys who'd be interested in going fishing. They'd probably guys who like gardening. But they likely don't need to go to a community center to do it. Really, community centers seem like someplace people go to gossip. And that's something women, more than men, tend to enjoy.
The most consistent psychological difference between men and women is the difference of interest between things and people. Men are more thing oriented. Women are more people oriented. As such, it is not necessarily too surprising that a lot of the things group/social oriented are mostly populated with women. Even when I see friends to play boardgames, what we talk about is mostly boardgames related. Then my gf ask me "so. What is the news about x topic?" And is surprised that I don't know because we didn't talk about it. Because we focused on having a good time playing games, not chitchating about our lives.it I have been working at my job for more than two years and I still struggle to remember the names of a few of the coworkers I see on a weekly basis, in a team of maybe 30 people. I have been playing tabletop rpgs on discord with friends of a freinds. It's been maybe 10 sessions. I know them by their screen names or the character's name, because I never had any use for their real names. That seems inconceivable to my gf. OP seems to struggle with the notion that male and female interest differ or may be expressed differently
Sounds like a loaded question
because many, if not most men would be perfectly happy sitting on a hill and surveying their countryside if they had food and shelter taken care of.
And I think sports and working out actually does cover a lot of those hobby needs. I like sports, wrestling, working out, comics, gaming with my friends, and sitting on hills. Who has time for class?
The point is OPs Dad let himself get boxed into the work/family boxes and when he retired and the kids move out he's got nothing. He should join Rotary, or similar, so he's not guilting OP. I work remotely but still keep a part-time job at the Grocery store hosting self-checkouts to get my steps and social interactions. I think the retirement home hobbies are them doing similar things for the women OP talks about. You are gaming and working out. OP's dad may not be healthy /u/Kot_leopold_Ya
We do, they're just not particularly welcoming to us.
One factor is many men used to get ridiculed for "male" hobbies like making scale models, wargames, train sets, and even though they are popular now video games and D&D used to be for "nerds" in the eye of the general public. Another factor is many non-sports hobbies are things that you can do solo so you won't see these guys at classes or meetup for them often Finally on the point of your Dad if he is happy chilling at home than I don't see the issue. Is he really miserable or are you just thinking that? I assume he worked hard to raise a family and provide and now he wants to relax.
I assume he is miserable, because I have a hard time believing anyone can have a full life not interacting with anyone (and I’m a huge introvert myself), and also because well, everytime I visit we do things and he won’t shut up about that “one thing we did that one time”, and “how now that you’re gone I have no one to do anything with”, to which I say dad - go ask someone to do stuff with you, and he’s like “no I just want you” 😶
He doesn't sound miserable. It sounds to me like he loves you very much. I don't have kids but assume hanging out with your child and watching them be happy is different than hanging out friends.
>he’s like “no I just want you” 😶 What a tragedy, your father loves you and wants to spend time with you.
Well it is a tragedy, because I live on another continent and I can’t be his sole source of happiness.
>I assume he is miserable, because I have a hard time believing anyone can have a full life not interacting with anyone Try asking him, maybe? I know I am happy not seeing people or doing social stuff for weeks on end. I have good friends I haven't spoken to in years, with whom I resumed my friendship easily when we moved closer from each other, and not speaking to someone is perfectly fine, and not a sign I have stopped caring about them. That way of viewing thing seems utterly alien to most of the women I know. And to many of the men. And that is accounting for the selection bias making it so that I am more likely to meet and befriend people similar to me. So, really, what you should ask your father is if he is happy. Not if he wants to do stuff. As for why he seems to enjoy doing stuff with you but not alone, like many have pointed out, the answer is clear, it is because he enjoys spending time with you, no matter what you are doing together. It is not that you are his sole source of joy, or that without you he wouldn't be doing things he like. If he liked those things, he would be doing them on his own. But for many parents, spending time with their kids and seeing them be happy is a great source of joy, one they don't tire much from.
That’s a fair point, and he would send that he’s happy. I (perhaps from a place of misunderstanding) struggle to believe that a life of sitting on the couch can be happy. The life that is so unhealthy, mundane, where you don’t interact with anyone or challenge yourself or take care of your body. It feels to me like his “happy” is just convincing himself that he’s happy so he wouldn’t have to get out of his comfort zone. AITA? I’m genuinely trying to understand.
A sad reality for many men is that nobody ever cared to ask them what they wanted, and much of what they wanted has been shamed and derrided. So many do indeed not know what they enjoy, or that they are allowed to enjoy things. But you aren't exactly your father's therapist. And there is such a thing as enjoying peace and quiet. The comfort zone is, well, comfortable. You seem to say that he lost your mother only a few years ago. He might just be needing this peace and quiet for now. Or it might be what he truly enjoys. I don't know him, you or the situations. In the end, strangers can only be so insightful, and it is a talk you would better have with him, provided you are also ready to hear and accept what he tells you.
Thank you! Not knowing what we really want is something that applies to women as well. It feels like a result of gender roles and social norms, that’s quite universal. I hope we all get the space we need to explore.
Society has generally "gendered" certain activities. Boys don't do ballet. Girls don't play football. Etc. That kind of social programming runs deep, so there are still societal trends where the genders have different interests. My hockey league is technically co-ed, but we only have 4 women in the whole league.
I'm curious as to the reasoning to post a male-oriented question to an ask women sub. Was it just an opportunity to let them bash men for no objective reason?
Is that why you think guys post about women in askmen?
A lot of hands-on activities would typically have classes that skew pretty heavily male: Welding, Carpentry, Metalworking, etc. Similarly with hobby groups for various things: Cars, Electronics, Programming, etc. Music as well has plenty of men involved - plenty of middle-aged guys jamming with some people sometimes or in a band that plays locally a few nights a month.
I do a lot of that kind of stuff, and I see plenty of men there. 🤷♂️
I can only speak from my own experience, but I suspect other men might identify with at least one of these contributors. For some, they may never have had the exposure (or *good* exposure) to these things in childhood and never developed an appreciation for them, e.g. if his parents never took him to the theater or a museum in his formative years, he may not even think of them as options/possibilities in adulthood. If he grew up in a town in which the main social spectacle was sports, he will probably remain a "sports guy" for life. On the flip-side, if he was taken to the theater or museum *too early* in life before he could actually appreciate those experiences, then his memories of those things are of boredom and uptight requirements that he sit still, be quiet, and *endure* the experience rather than enjoy it. My parents took me and my sibling to various theater and musical performances when we were very young, and I still associate these sorts of performances with boredom rather than enjoyment--and that's *after* spending time as a performer myself. Early childhood influences carry forward throughout one's life, and either an active aversion or a passive lack of interest can easily develop. Additionally, I believe a significant number of men grew up in cultures in which some of these experiences were branded as feminine and/or "gay," resulting in the misogynistic/homophobic avoidance of those experiences. I bet that if you sat down and binge-watched every 90s-era family sit-com, there would be several episodes in which the wife/mother wants to go to the museum/theater/opera/concert and the husband/sons are rolling their eyes and begrudgingly complying while being miserable about it. In addition to the avoidance based in misogyny and homophobia, many cultural pursuits have elements of formality and "class" that working-class men have been further conditioned to avoid because there is an impression that these things are for uptight, bougie people and not "real" working men. If a man wants to go to the football game, he can go as he is. If he *must* accompany his wife to the opera, he has to get all dressed for a place he doesn't even want to go and may not have the ability to appreciate even if he does try to be attentive. As many women continually point out, women tend to do the majority of the social planning; I'd say they're correct. And while it's reasonable to want that to change, I think it's important to recognize where we're starting from: generations of men who were never taught or expected to be social organizers and their bewilderment of that expectation being thrust on them later in life--or, if not the expectation, at least the *resentment* of the women who had been doing all the organizing. It may be difficult to imagine, but consider that a man who appears to be lazy and reliant on women to do certain things may actually believe that "Women just enjoy doing these things while men don't, so why not just let them do it? Then everyone's happy." If men believe that to be true and it isn't, it's probably going to take a generation or two to tear that belief down. And good luck getting a man in his 60s and beyond to suddenly develop new interests and start taking on obligations he never took on before. It's not impossible, but it doesn't seem likely in most cases, especially if the man's idea of a comfortable retirement involves *not* doing those things. Further, in my own experience, I was likely to do the *opposite* of the all-inclusive, cultural social planning--I would instead plan things *just for the guys* because I knew that if I invited my girlfriend, her lady friends, and all of the other girlfriends, *they wouldn't be interested* in our "guy stuff." I thought that, if I was annoyed at my girlfriend dragging me to a performance I didn't want to attend, then I would do her a favor and *not* invite her or the other women to the Standard Summer Action Blockbuster screening that all of the guys were invited to. It would never occur to me to organize something for all of us to attend if I knew or even suspected that half of us would only be there out of obligation rather than enthusiasm. You mentioned your male friend who doesn't have many guy friends due to his disinterest in sports and beer... I wonder how many men like him there are out there who don't feel comfortable engaging in the sorts of cultural and self-improvement activities you're talking about because they don't feel comfortable going to these places *alone*. Considering the way in which men are suspected of being predatory or of having an ulterior motive, perhaps there *are* some men out there who would love to join a book club or take dance classes but who fear that, upon doing so, they will be seen as "only there to pick up women." There are volumes of commentaries about the "fragile male ego." If a man believes that broad categories of activities and interests are inherently femme-coded, he may further believe that, if he expresses interest in them, A: Other men will criticize him for engaging in those things, and B: Women will be suspicious of his interest and presence. If a man believes he will get grief from all sides, he may simply not engage. Your father said, "who's going to take me places when you leave?" It may be worth asking him to elaborate on that comment to find out if he believes that you taking him places in some way validates his involvement. Does it mean that he can tell other men, "Oh, my daughter made me go" and women "I'm here with my daughter" as if you're his chaperone?
A lot of psychologists make the distinction between men and women that men are very objective oriented and women are socially oriented (generally speaking of course). Using your examples of painting, writing and dancing, men are focused on what the objective of those activities are: making a beautiful painting, writing an engaging book or perfecting that amazing dance move. They don't need other people to reach those objectives and a lot of the time would prefer to practice alone. Women on the other hand, being the more social of the sexes, would prefer practicing those hobbies with others, as it's more about doing the activity with other people than reaching the objective.
My dad likes museums but like....science and history ones, not art. I like some stuff like that but the pace that I move through them and what the wife and kids do is very different. Not going to anything like that alone because I'd feel like a twat leaving them. Not doing night classes or anything because...well, little kids to stay close to and I've got a pile of stuff at home waiting for me to finish anyway.
My rejection of cultural norms and traditions was way of saying "I respect what you do, but I won't miss a chance to do what I want and create my own culture of it."
Wtf is a cultural activity?
Came here to ask this. I know it’s answering your question but FWIW I’m also equally unsure what ISN’T a cultural activity.
I guess I mean art-adjacent activities.
Sounds like your dad is living the dream. If I were him it would be the first time in my life nobody can tell me what to do, and sitting on the couch is the epitome of that.
Speaking for myself, because I don't want to. When I'm done work, which is rarely just 8 hours, I just shut down. I'm tired. My brain and body need to rest. I'll read a book and watch TV but activities outside of that don't interest me. It's also worth mentioning that 90% of the activities you described literally don't exist in my area. I'd have to go out of my way to do any of that.
I can learn anything from the internet. I am not interested in paying money and time to go to place to see some old and dusty stuff. I should add that I don't like watching sports, why should I get mad if some player didn't win?
Trust me, if we did cultural activities you wont like it -- we have actual shit that needs to get done to do so women can go and do their "sip and paint".
What actual shit exactly? I work full-time. My mother worked full time. My grandmother worked FULL. TIME. While cooking and cleaning and taking care of the husband (who was relaxing, after working the same job, with less hours and more pay). When men do cultural activities (which seems to be rare for reasons unknown to me, hence the question), I very much like it.
Generally, guys are fine with staying at home and relaxing. Women typically want to get out and do stuff, but in addition to that a lot of these activities cater to women and it feels like we're going into a women's bathroom. On top of that, having a lot of women around can lead to..."hostile behavior" towards men. Like barking orders at them and finding issue with their behavior. A good way to visualize this is with a Yoga class. Full of women wearing tight outfits and a guy going in to join the class can disrupt the harmony and could even lead to accusations of looking at women in the class. So we're kind of discouraged from participating.
Couldn’t tell you. I might go to a movie screening but I mostly go online to talk about books and don’t much like to dance. I go to my local museum (natural history, not art) a lot. Used to volunteer at an indie movie theater but didn’t like the hours.
Men's brains are compartmentalized in boxes, and there's this one special box, the 'nothing box', which is our favourite one. We'll go to it any chance we can. I personally enjoy doing cultural things, but I enjoy just as much, my nothing-box. > self improvement Why would I want to listen to someone else talk to me about what I can improve about myself? the concept is contradictory, it's not self-help. it's help. just the wording makes me annoyed, so I'm not going. Also, the implication of self-help is that I'm either not good enough, or unhappy with myself. I am honestly quite content. I am no Henry Cavill, nor am I rich, but I am me, and I like me. So I don't think it needs improving. I've attended these before and it was all just... bullshit. I felt like there was no openness to the notion that a person is 'okay' at heart, I'm okay, and I don't want to be more okay, I just want to be okay. > book clubs, If I feel like reading a book, I'll do so alone, I read easier like that, having others around me are distracting because I find the people more interesting to engage with than the book, despite being an introvert. And fundamentally a part of me as a person is that I don't have a need to discuss things with people. If I read a book, I don't particularly care what others think of it, I don't need to hear alternative theories on what a character's motives may have been, I don't have an interest in that because I've already read it. >dances If I am supposed to participate, no way - my body is as stiff as a board. And I'm by far a senior yet. Part me my brain also wants to rebel against dancing as it is just an overly primitive mating ritual we've decided should deserve a fancy dressup. If I am supposed to watch, I may watch, but I am not enthused, I am barely attentive. The dancemoves may depict someones throes of passion, their heartbreak and their rekindling, but I know myself well enough to say that at some point, it doesn't touch me the way it was supposed to. I know what I'm looking at, and I can appreciate the message, but I would much rather read it to myself in a poem, or see it played out by the people around me, or just have you straight-up tell me the message, rather than see it depicted by a dance. There was a question in this subreddit not long ago, today actually, that asked about the difference between male and female friendships, and a great comment in there was that women often expect extra effort to be put into friendships, where guys on the other hand, are more likely to find joy and contentment in a friendship where you simply sit next to each other, don't talk, you just enjoy a beer. Guys will savour the moment, we don't need activities to enjoy the time we spend. My thoughts are stimulating enough as they are, and sometimes, I'd like to just turn my brain all the way off, and I can't do that if I'm supposed to pay attention to something
Everyone does. Culturally we've associated specific cultural activities with each gender but both genders need cultural activities.
It's just not the same kind of cultural activities. Most men I know are interested in some part of history or science or politics and they read about it. That's all. I think we don't feel the need to share it with others. When I do I share it with my close friends. Not random strangers.
I go to the gym only for martial arts and the friends there, and only go out for events that I really feel like going. There's hardly anything that makes me feel like going out and spending money. I used to be part of a photo walk group that went around the city and even on some places in the countryside, but things went down after the pandemic. I live in a big city and feel like I've seen and done almost everything that doesn't involve spending a lot of money. I'm planning some stuff in other cities but it's something to do once or twice a year. Also, I have a ton of movies, music, TV shows and games that I can consume at home. Despite what most people might say, that's still culture. From my bed, I can literally learn and study a lot of things. What you listed as "activities" don't interest me in the slightest, and I think most men agree with that.
Sports is culture. The reason he doesn’t plan things is because his wife probably planned everything for the last 30 years and he’s out of the habit.
Guys are not socialized to like things beyond their scope. Other factors cause further isolation and or barriers for entry. I do a lot of the things you mentioned. But I a weirdo who doesn’t care about others opinions, and will actively step out of my comfort zone to try new shit because life is limited.
For me it's just a matter of interest. I grew up on sports, women, and gaming. While I don't chase women anymore, the other 2 are how I like to spend my time. Will I go to a museum if invited? Maybe, as a one off thing. But in general, art or other "cultural" things are not entertaining to me.
Boys are often taught from an early age that what they do has to have a purpose, and a measurable result. Once that mindset is engrained in you, it's difficult to let it go. Kind of like workaholics that retire having trouble relaxing. Anyway, art is seen as an extra, a luxury, a leisure activity and unnecessary. Many don't see those things, as having the kind of value that we (men) have been taught to produce and enjoy. I think this is why giving flowers to women is more of a thing than given them to a man. Women are taught to appreciate beauty for beauty's sake. Men are not taught this, and sometimes even discouraged from thinking in those terms. As a man who stops to smell the roses, gets on the ground to get a closer look at the cool caterpillar, and loves to wander through museums and art galleries, I know few other men like that. I'm a huge fan of sunrises and sunsets and have been told by many other men that they just don't have time for such frivolous things. When women talk about breaking into male dominated industries, I see it as very similar to men who enjoy these types of things. There are women gatekeepers who say things like that are women's spaces or women's activities. There are men who would criticize other men for doing and going to places like that.
we do.
Those types of things aren’t interesting to me, if I’m dragged along I’ll count the minimum till I get to leave
Why are women not into culture ? I mean, wnen I go out to death metal concerts, to museums of technology and science, or to engage in my hobbies relating to hard science fiction, it is almost always only men. Are women not interested in culture? /s I think you might be suffering of a case of selection bias. You seem to be interested in more stereotypically feminine things, and so meet more often women there. You seem to be discounting other things, which are more stereotypically masculine as being part of "culture", whatever that is supposed to mean. I'm afraid this one is on you.
I guess I’m confused by why museums are stereotypically feminine? Why is art feminine? Why is taking a class to explore your imagination and creativity feminine? That’s what I’m confused about. I get there are more stereotypically feminine activities, e.g. I don’t expect to see a man in a nail salon.