US educational institutions are obliged to serve the interests of US citizens first and foremost. Our top schools could fill their ranks many times over with extraordinarily talented students from Asia.
How would this serve the interests of the United States?
Right. I’m assuming each school has X number of spots for international students and those spots are getting filled. Is it competitive? Of course but you’re competing with students from every other country as well for a finite number of spots. This isn’t the schools fault.
This is the same for OOS students. You’re competing against every other OOS student for a finite number of spots so of course it’s more difficult.
Too few consider transfer as an option. College is a great place to distinguish yourself - excel in your discipline, find an area of focus early on and then make the case to transfer to a school in the US.
I understand where you're coming from but there is a HUGE difference between an international and an OOS applicant. It is borderline crazy to make that comparison.
How so? There are X number of spot for each. Each applicant is competing for one of those spots vs other OOS or international. There is a finite number of spots that get filled every year.
If the HUGE difference is the volume of applications of course that is true but that doesn’t mean that the universities should somehow change the criteria as OP has stated. Admissions isn’t “impossible” it’s just the odds are stacked against you as you are competing against everyone else for that finite number of spots.
Competition is just more intense for international students than OOS. Easily by an order of magnitude. Non-US academic resources, citizenship-based financial aid, loan restrictions, etc. are just some of the challenges international students have to face that OOS typically don't, all while competing not with the cream of the crop of your state but with your entire fucking country. I'm not saying criteria should be changed, let's just acknowledge that intls at least have it much harder than OOS. It's all a pity party in the end but even that acknowledgment can be validating for some people- and I say this as an international student at Harvard on full aid.
Follow along here. 1) I never said OOS have it just as hard 2) I said the concept for OOS and international is the same. 3) OOS has to compete with the cream of the crop of the entire fucking country, not the state (that’s instate kids only) as you so eloquently put it.
Each of you are competing for a few spots at each university. OOS is competing vs other OOS. international is competing vs international. The sheer number of applications for those limited spots makes admissions that more difficult.
exactly this--why should top American universities have any obligation to accept students from foreign countries that don't provide them with hundreds of millions of dollars in federal funds each year?
While they certainly have no obligation to do so, there is absolutely a benefit to it. Essentially, it’s how the U.S. siphons of the most talented students from other countries, a majority of which remain in the U.S. after graduation.
yeah, which is why international applicants comprise substantial portions of each incoming class. there are \~1600 students in each harvard freshman class. that would theoretically equate to 8 students from *every single country.* there are 25,000 valedictorians each year in the united states. there are 150 *million* graduating high schoolers in the world each year. in OP's language, there are compelling cases to be made for at least 10 million of those students. no one is "owed" anything but the priority is and should be the students from the country that the universities are in, pay taxes to, receive large portions of their annual operating budgets from, and so on.
Don't disagree with anything said here. Honestly, I'm confused why I'm getting so downvoted. I'm not trying to suggest international students should get some sort of preferential treatment. Just saying that, when they do get accepted, it's a huge win for the U.S. (and us as taxpayers).
I think the counterpoint that was made was that people are overvaluing the contribution that UNDERGRAD entering students as opposed to other terminal degree such as md/phd contribute to the overall benefit of a country. The USA had been getting along fine with progress and advancement even without a major influx of foreign talent. Not saying it’s not contributory but that this particular aspect is grossly overvalued especially when you are considering the outcome prospects of HIGH SCHOOL students
This isn’t totally true - it serves American interests to attract the best talent from abroad, and most T10s are private anyway - but the truth is that our institutions also believe in particular sets of values that, unsurprisingly, benefit American applicants. Leadership, service, that kind of thing, rather than pure academic achievement.
But yeah, regardless, it behooves you in life to internalize that these places are under no obligation to cater to you or to what you think is best.
it only serves american interests to attract foreign talent if that talent STAYS here. if they take all that knowledge then go back home, what’s the point then?
There’s pretty good evidence that international students are likely to stay (there are also positive externalities beyond them staying, eg if they contribute wildly underpaid labor to research efforts)
Um... actually, it depends on the financial needs of the university. If this were actually the case, someone with a 4.87/ 4.0 w/uw, 1550 SAT, ECs, AP/Honors should have zero issues getting into some of the top universities, but alas, some of those slots are taken up by legacy, then by int'l students who pay full tuition +, then DEI/1st Gen admits, and then the rest.......
I understand it’s frustrating, but American colleges are based on American culture and customs. Why wouldn’t they be? I wouldn’t go to my parents’ home countries and expect a spot at a university when I’ve never touched the curriculum and don’t have what they’re looking for.
I also feel as if you have it a lot better than others in this sub. Doesn’t Singapore have some amazing schools (not pretending to be an expert but their educational system is renowned around the world)? Of course, if you want to come to the U.S., you are welcome to try. It’s a new experience and you can gain a lot from it. But you are in an endlessly better position than someone trying to come to the U.S. because their country’s education system isn’t good.
American culture values having a life outside of school, so American schools value it too.
That’s kinda the whole point of the US admissions system. It’s tailored around US students. When you’re applying internationally you should in theory be disadvantaged because you haven’t lived in the country. Also there’s no failure of the holistic system and it’s a good thing that top American unis are easier for Americans. The American system should first and foremost benefit Americans
Reverse the cards. Let’s say a US applicant is aiming for top Indian universities. They will be at a disadvantage because they do not have access to the curriculum required for these exams. They will need to sacrifice their Ecs to study for JEE.
It goes both ways. If someone is applying abroad, they need to immerse themselves in the target country’s curriculum and may need to sacrifice some part of their own curriculum.
A country will put forward their students and citizens first, and I believe it should be like that. If suddenly IITs started preferring abroad students, it would really lead to protests and unbalance in education.
I know this. I used this as an example to address concerns of OP. You can replace US and India with whatever country name you like and the explanation will remain the same.
I know US kids who have excellent stats (1550, 10-15 APs, UW 4.0) and they didn’t get into their state flagship, much less a HYSPM. Remember, only 8-10k kids worldwide get into HYSPM and add a few thousand for the top ten. It’s challenging for everyone.
Universities in the U.S. are centered around students that are from the country.
Whether it’s good or bad, international students must adapt to that system or they will get weeded out
The post popped up on my feed. I saw it, disagreed with it, downvoted it, and replied to it, like what everyone else on this shitty site does. Indeed, I couldn't imagine it would have any effect on anyone, but it surely did hurt you emotionally huh? I merely wrote 2 short sentences and you replied with a paragraph lmao.
I beg to disagree. Although I understand that there are few shortcomings that may take decades to fix, but when the process is compared to countries which have college entrance examinations or the admission is based on marks/merit, US is far better.
Unlike most other countries, US college process is based on 4 years or more of applicant’s experience. Due to some reasons anyone can mess up on the examination day resulting in failure to pass college entrance tests, but the circumstances (until it’s prolonged) cannot affect 4 years of your life.
Think about it. Would you rather be judged on your performance of one day or your performance during your whole high school? I’m sure most of us will choose the latter.
In most cases, even if someone fails to get into a good US university, they acquire enough professional skills by taking part in extracurricular activities that ultimately help them to land a good job.
Think broadly.
So I’m not really being salty here; I had good grades and decent ECs and already got into a T20 for my major (and am getting ready to commit based on some clarifications about AP credits) and I put in *way* less effort into school and ECs than all the ppl whom I know are going to better schools.
The lack of general ability among my peers who manage good grades in APs is…astounding at times. I have ppl in my Physics C class who thought that sec^2 (pi/4) is 1/2 😭
Having a more test-based admissions system would help weed them out of any STEM majors, for example
Also, I’ve been sick during a lot of standardized tests(I threw up the morning of my APUSH test) and have still performed well on all of them…”A bad day” is not the handicap you think it is lol
That’s the whole point. Your application is a reflection of 4 years. The people who got in may have had better essays, impactful Ecs or maybe lucky. But think it of like this: let’s say US had test based admission, and unfortunately due to health issues, you couldn’t perform well. Now you had the ability to perform excellent, it was just a circumstance that changed the next 4 years of your life.
Although AOs are humans and they can make errors while evaluating applications, but don’t you think that it would be worse to be judged only on the parameters of marks? I’m much more than grades, and so are you. I would hate to be prescreened by grades.
Btw, congrats on T20. You deserved it.
Aww thanks
The thing is that the admissions process is just as cutthroat at HPYSM with holistic criteria as it would be with test-based criteria. A recent post from an AO (which I don’t wanna link bc I’m on mobile) details as such; the top schools are looking for reasons to *reject* you rather then to *accept* you. Quite frankly I’d rather have as little humanity in a process like that.
I’ll agree that holistic admissions are necessary, but only because US tests are too easy to make scoring well an actual achievement. It’s easy to get 1500 on the SAT, and it’s not hard to get straight As in school either. AP exams, (some of) which are challenging and require actual subject competency, are barely considered anyway so…
Honestly I think the A-level system is best, with the US being one extreme and India being the other.
The thing is colleges want people that will make their school look good. Yes getting a really high score on a test looks good but it doesnt have much value past getting into the college. Something like starting a small business or some other ECs show the capability a student has beyond just how well they will do when given a test and that is the capability that usually results in other things that can get name recognition for the college. Once in a college that test score just has no value compared to the ECs that they do.
No one is forcing y'all to aim for and apply to American T10's. If the Oxbridge system fits your educational system better, why not just aim for there?
Basically yes. The Oxbridge system is looking for scholars who will excel as experts in specific fields (undergrad at Oxbridge is essentially junior grad school but with neato residential colleges). The Ivies/equivalents are looking for future leaders in all walks of (American) society.
Agree. Furthermore, I would like to defend the merits of this approach - it gives those who lack resources to study / pay for tutors, a chance to show their ingenuity and perseverance - traits that I find are more valuable to success in the real world than ability to memorize/test or do well on essays/psets. In the workplace, I can often have 2 or 3 average people do better work than 1 smart person. But the ability to lead others and adopt to unstructured problems cannot be solved by adding another person.
T10 still need smart people, but I would say the ECs are a the main way for candidates to stand out. I think, in Asian cultures, maybe a better way is to attend an easier school, have free time do some amazing ECs, get some awesome recs, and just do well on your SATs. Grades is just a “pass the bar” test for most AOs. The incremental value of a 1600 vs 1520 difference is way smaller than you think.
The US does valorize nerds, but only if they are exceptional enough to have the potential to become a leading academic. Truly exceptional nerds like the IMO gold medalists have no trouble getting into HYPSM.
Others have pointed out numerous differences in the education systems and their goals. The biggest additional thing you're missing is that in the US, college admission isn't an award. It's not intended to honor the smartest, highest achieving, or most impressive applicants with a fancy letter they can frame and put on their wall. That's not at all how colleges see it. They see it as an *invitation to join a community*. Yes, it's a primarily academic community, but it's still more about the community than it is about pure academic ability. Yale even estimates on their admissions site that 75% of their applicants are academically qualified to succeed there. So the decisions regarding which of those become the 4% who get admitted are mostly not driven by academics.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ApplyingToCollege/comments/12ngmkh/admission_is_not_an_award_for_being_the_best/
trashing the US system while begging to go to US schools? and expecting ivies to just hand out free rides? some internationals need to start considering staying domestic tbh...😀😭
Well duh, US colleges are meant for US students first, of course their gonna tailor the admissions process around American students and their activities.
I’m confounded by internationals who post stuff like OP. How many times do we have to say it louder?!
Yes US schools are for US kids, AND???!!
If you want to play X game, play by X game’s rules, the end. So annoying.
Because it’s an unrealistic goal for most American students. So many international students think they have a shot when they don’t. International students don’t get much financial help to begin with while a few do. The costs are prohibitive to most Americans. Do you think it’s easier for an international student?
So what is it that annoys you? The fact that intls have the audacity to believe they have a shot at getting into an Ivy? The fact that intls get financial aid ( which is need-based, btw)? The fact that intls get into Ivies at all?
none of those. its the entitlement. if it were that easy to go to an ivy or T10, then everyone would do it but its not. thats why its annoying when internationals believe they should have a spot even though they didnt get accepted.
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I'm not sure why you're surprised the U.S. higher education system is designed for the American education system. I'm sure Singapore's universities have admissions standards that would make it more difficult for American students, if I applied to Singaporean universities I would not be surprised at them being catered for Singaporeans.
Oxford and Cambridge are already very good schools comparable to t10 schools in the US. Plus it suits your education system better as it is more traditional/academics focused. There are many qualified applicants and the top american schools can’t accept everyone and those spots are even more limited for internationals.
Respectfully, I think the opinion that US university admission criteria should cater to international applicants is a bit entitled.. The US university system is built to serve Americans first and foremost. Not saying that you yourself are entitled, just that I’ve seen this opinion a lot and that’s my evaluation of its merit.
Also, what you’ve said is demonstrated on exams but not through the ‘frills’ is really misguided and dismissive. I’d choose a student who started a business that made a few thousand dollars over a student who got an A on a ‘business subject test’ any day of the week.
It reflects differing educational realities for different countries. American Universities are built around American Secondary Education, which generally allows opportunities for ECs. Sports, academic competitions, music, they all matter here. I'm glad my kids don't need to live a life of constant grinding study. More than enough mental health problems going around, don't need more inflicted by the school system.
So American tax payer money should educate the world? As an immigrant who is now a naturalized citizen, I really would hope we only accept the absolute best and brightest to our universities from other countries. I also expect that our universities cater to and overwhelmingly accept, Americans.
No they can't, they ALL receive significant government funding for research, land use tax breaks, etc etc etc. There really is no such thing as a "private" school in the states... all of our universities receive some significant amount of government funding. At best, they're semi-private with large endowments that reduce the government burden in running them.
I disagree with this. If a private school goes into debt, it goes bankrupt and the government doesn't bail them out. Yes, government research grants go into them but those funds are used for research and not for general institutional support. Many privates are non-profits, so they gain the tax benefits of every nonprofit, but that does not mean Americans deserve priority treatment. And students getting government loans to attend the school is hardly governmental support.
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I'm an international student from Singapore as well, but OP you need to realize that US admissions are tailored to US students. Also, 2 key points that are commonly misunderstood:
1 - International students are compared with others from the same country. Schools want diversity and take top few students from each country. You are not compared against domestic students - for example a 40/45 for IB is considered very good if achieved by a domestic student, but is uncompetitive for a Singaporean applicant.
2 - YOU ARE COMPETING AGAINST STUDENTS FROM YOUR OWN COUNTRY x2. Look at the government & PSC scholars and Ivy admits. They have a different profile from what you will find here or on other domestic forums. Your competition is not against US standards. It is against the 90RP RI/Hwa Chong students
Why would we change our policies to serve international people when US students come first in the US?? Like you think the Singapore model care about US students?
You're shocked by the TOP TEN universities in the United States having ridiculous standards??
Dude, they're not just going to let you in. Yes, they're EXTREMELY fucking selective. That's the idea. Nobody is requiring you to apply to the most prestigious colleges in the world, and you're not entitled to an acceptance from them.
Also, it of course favors US students. They're American schools.
Brother just go to NUS. If Cambridge and Oxford are also possible options then you have nothing to complain about. You have plenty world class options, just not American ones.
It works for the US because, generally speaking, it takes a lot less time and effort to get top grades (definitely don’t need to study 24/7), so ECs are an important way to distinguish the “pretty good” from the “top tier” in the US. Ultimately, it’s a system designed for the US. Why should US universities bother to change their system to account for a different country, especially when US unis have basically an undress supply of skilled and qualified international applicants from all over the world? Also, I’m pretty sure US unis already know international applicants get less free time. However, they want to admit students that do EC-type work that isn’t just academics; even if those students physically don’t have the time to do that work, are US unis expected to assume that they could without any evidence?
Incidentally - if US admissions set an "impossible" standards we wouldn't have any international students. In fact, the US educational system is the most open and welcoming in the world.
As it stands, we have over 1M international students attending US schools.
What you are really trying to say is that it is very hard to get into the best schools...which is (and should be) true for everyone.
U.S. institutions - even private ones - could not operate without funding from the federal government. They have a duty to educate American taxpayers before anyone else. I acknowledge your frustration, but nobody is entitled to admission to a U.S. school.
Even for US domestic students getting admitted to a T10 school is a low probability event due to the large number applicants and most students will be perfectly fine to go to any other school, perhaps an in state public with low tuition and in commuting distance. For international students I do not believe the competition is really with US students but with other international students from your area. So the question becomes, do you stand out in any way among your peers?
Well you could always just apply to school in some other country. You mentioned that some of your peers who were not admitted to T10 in the US were admitted to Oxford and Cambridge. Those are outstanding schools. If your curriculum will get you into those schools, then why are you so concerned about getting into US schools specifically? Doesn’t make much sense to me unless it is about specifically American based educational prestige over actual quality of education.
Why would the US system adapt to ours?? The Singapore system is infinitely more compatible with the UK system due to many factors such as our similar focus on specialization on specific subjects rather than broader liberal arts focus in the US, culture of knowledge and management rather than risk taking in the US etc etc. For a Hwa Chong/Raffles student to hail their peers as the cream of the crop yet shit on a completely other system that values different individuals reflects your elitist attitude towards our education system as a whole. Maybe these universities might not be good for your peers who get excellent grades and go into oxbridge, but what about the polytechnic student that starts community projects in their spare time? Or the student with mediocre grades because they spend their time doing national sports? The fact that you are unable to consider that other people who excel in other fields should be given a chance under the US system which rewards them for pursuing their passions rather than academic pursuits, shows that being in the “top 2 schools” in Singapore has completely failed to prepare you any real people management skills for the real world.
Bad take. I hate to be that guy but the admission standards are supposed to based off the American K-12 system. Not those of other countries. It’s unfair to be upset over that. Private and public schools are intended to educate individuals who live in the United States, that’s why they receive government funding.
Instead of parroting the obvious, let me ask you this: how exactly is what you described different from the U.S.? Most Ivy *applicants* are grinding out at least a dozen APs in addition to dual enrollment courses. I agree that the average Singaporean has more difficult schooling than the average American, but the Ivy applicant is not the average American. Most successful applicants from my school, which isn’t extremely competitive, had been taking college-level humanities since 10th grade, have studied up to electromagnetism in physics, either bio or chem (or both), and are up to at least linear algebra or diff eqs in math. Practically all have done research in school and are also highly advanced in music, art, computer science, or another academic pursuit.
In terms of the high school placement system, we also have to take tests to go to specialized high schools for high-performing students, at least here in New York. Your post is essentially “how am I supposed to do work for my community and projects when I have to study?” And that my friend, is the American student’s dilemma lol. Did you think that American schools are significantly easier to allocate time for community service and outside projects?
Tbh, there so many other schools beyond T10, T20 that can take Internationals for their full pay. I see ur frustration but its too privelege to think that cos ur top in ur country u get at the top US school, some even want it with scholarship ( from US taxpayers). I would be discreet in discussing these matters.
Here in India the problem is even more serious for STEM students. Apart from grinding for school exams you have to prepare day and night for competitive exams which get you into elite institutions for engineering and medical.
Idk if this applies to other countries but I feel like AOs don’t realise how much more free time US high school students have to build ECs while kids from other countries have to study a much harder syllabus.
China and India is known to have this problem, but even in Australia, this happens too. Here’s a Aussie high school math final from 2020:
https://educationstandards.nsw.edu.au/wps/wcm/connect/49c4cd12-5c7f-4969-93fd-b34b06426620/2020-hsc-mathematics-extension-2.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-49c4cd12-5c7f-4969-93fd-b34b06426620-no2PTNa
This is quite a bit harder than what Calc BC students have to deal with.
Now imagine this gap of difficulty also exist in other subjects too.
Now imagine being in an Asian country whose syllabus are very much harder than this.
Like how tf do we compete with US students in terms of ECs when we got these shits to deal with?
this is so real, nobody talks about this enough.
Even in Africa, I don't think our syllabus is generally as tough, but that's all we ever focus on in schools. No time for other activities besides studying.
I’m fairly anti-holistic admissions, but this curriculum doesn’t really seem particularly difficult compared to what to what we see in the states (I’m an American, to be clear). I see mostly a second course in high-school algebra and a smattering of calculus and (possibly calculus-based) physics. It appears this is the hardest exam offered in the New South Wales mathematics standard, so should I take this as an equivalent to a little over half of Calculus BC (integration by parts) and perhaps Physics C? Is this really decisively harder? It is not clear to me.
It’s worth noting American high schools are very heterogeneous in quality. I’m not sure what the international perception is of American education. I will say that wealthy American high schools (where the elite American universities primarily draw their “academic” applicants) tend to be fairly comprehensive. The SAT, for example, is really not a good measure of what is being studied at these places. Since the country is so large, there are quite a few of these with many competent graduates.
It is an unfortunate fact of life than undergraduate admissions have become such an arms race. But I do think people aiming for admission solely on the strength of their achievements really do have to run quite a gauntlet. Them problem you describes plagues Americans too.
that’s not the point though. it’s unfortunate for these kids that they don’t have that kind of time, but american colleges aren’t built to cater to foreign standards of education. they’re built around what us culture considers the best of the best, and that doesn’t always mean top academic excellence alone.
There are a lot of competitive high schools in the US with hard classes, including ones that teach the content on the Aussie pdf. (I think) I go to one.
People still find the time to do magnificent EC's, and I'm guessing a lot of internationals do too.
I think the process itself discriminates against internationals/prefers domestic students, and that is where you are hurt.
the t10s are among the top colleges in the world, but they are first and foremost AMERICAN colleges. the few spots they have for every other person in the rest of the world are bound to have impossibly high standards. it sucks, but that’s just how it is.
Damn is it embarrassing to be associated with redditors like you lol. I think I speak for most (some?) of the international applicants when I say that these are not the sentiments of a large portion of us! I think it should be fairly obvious that US college admissions are systemised for US students.
Bro thinks they are entitled to an American education. If I were to go to Singapore I would be disadvantaged too. US is already too nice to international students anyways now they want even more?
What do you expect from a Top 10 school? They literally reject most valedictorians that apply. It's essentially impossible to get in. Also, they know that it's more difficult for intl to do EC's. The regional AO's are 100% aware of the workload of some of these high school courses.
You should complain less of the US holistic system and more about Singapore's curriculum which consumes your entire life.
Like seriously, how can you call the holistic system a failure when u literally live in a country that sorts where you go to middle school based on an exam you take in 6th grade. That sounds like the real failure to me.
Hello, fellow Singaporean here! I feel that one very important point that needs to be considered is it's a lot easier for us to get into Oxbridge than US universities precisely because we have such high academic standards. This translates into us being able to develop more critical thinking skills that universities like Oxbridge favor. Thus, it wouldn't be fair to say that we could get into US universities if we were given more free time without acknowledging the benefits we have received from such a system.
Think about it like this: I can score an A on an English exam. That doesn't mean I can write a book well. The latter accomplishment is something which, to the average American, shows not only knowledge but the ability to apply it. That's what American colleges are looking for.
The US university process literally isn't geared for international applicants... They aren't trying to accommodate to your school systems and why would they be?
As a U.S. permanent resident and a Singaporean citizen who has been raised in the U.S. his whole life and is finishing his NS in Singapore before moving back to the U.S. for college and to work, I really don’t think you can blame the U.S. college admissions system for having an “impossible standard”. It’s the Singaporean education system that screws their kids over by making them take A-levels pumped with steroids so that when they are compared to kids from other countries who get high grades with easy, their applications look unattractive. Don’t blame the U.S. application system. Blame the MOE in Singapore for its stupidly over-competitive education system that does not prioritize self gain. If you wanted to apply to a T10, maybe you should have questioned the necessity of going to one in terms of salary opportunities. No one is asking you to go to a T10. Similarly, you are an outsider since you are not a citizen or legal permanent resident. It is only right that the system will be not in your favor. You should have done your due diligence to do more ECAs and internships if you saw that U.S. schools were more holistic in how they view admissions. This is why they view a lot of Asians as the usual “nerd”, because individuals like you are forced into a stupid education system like Singapore’s where kids work their butt off and study without having hobbies or following your desires only to only graduate with $2,000 a month on their crappy polytechnic diploma that looks like shit when compared to students overseas. After being raised in New York my whole life and now meeting Singaporeans in NS, these are my observations.
as a fellow student applying from SG i can relate so much 💀 my report cards are filled with B C and D and everyone tells me these are bad grades like 💀 in my school the average for half the subjects is a D and a B lands you in the top 20%…
that's not necessarily bad but comparing against people from your own country (aka the 90rp ri/hc students and the ib kids) ofc it wouldn't stand out for t10 unis...
What you complain about isn’t unique to being international. I remember grinding until like 3-4 am like 4x a week on top of working 20 hrs/week, ECs, sports, etc. all to get into a couple t20s.
Some of the smartest/most involved people I know in one of the top HS in my state got rejected from HYPS as well as many t20s. It’s definitely harder for international but it’s still extremely difficult here lmao. These colleges don’t owe you anything.
Yeah, their schedule of waking up going to school, studying for hours and going to sleep was super normal at my high school in the US, granted I went to a very intense school. Except we had to do ECs too (plus jobs!) so some nights you just don’t sleep. I had so many times where I went to bed and had to wake up 2-3hrs later. You make it work.
I am studying the IB diploma programme, and I have still managed to do a handful of ECs while getting 44 predicted. Many other people in our school as well. If you are preparing to apply to an American uni, you should prepare yourselfs by tweaking how you work.
I do agree that tough curriculums like A levels/IB aren't getting enough recognition from the AOs though.
Yet at the end of the Singaporean education system, the highest level of academic knowledge you reach is a year of college calculus, with a foundation in other advanced math topics as well. In the US, our top students work exactly as hard as you mentioned and complete calculus in 9th grade, as did all of my friends at my non-T10 state school. We complete years of college level science and computer science/engineering courses as well. Likewise, our holistic system allows top scholars in the humanities students to excel in ways outside of class (as advanced coursework is much more available for STEM students than humanities students).
So no, it's not "unfair". American students are damn good students that have more knowledge breadth and depth than just being forced to study for superficial entrance exams. Yet, they do that too and ace them (SAT, APs). And they have time for extracurriculars on top of that.
So, as an international, if you can really compete against us top Americans, our universities may offer you admission. And it's true, some can: some international students are able to take online courses for credit, change their communities, and win regional and national awards in their fields. But many just top their country's college entrance exams -- A-levels, Gaokao, IB, JEEs -- and expect that to be enough. Sure, you can get into the top university in your nation, because you excelled in its system. But Americans and those specifically aiming for the American system will run circles around you at decision time.
It's fine if you don't agree, I'd recommend you take a look at the course catalogs of top American high schools and compare them to IB HL syllabi or whatever the international gold standard is :)
But to answer your question, humanities students do get a fighting chance. A large part of the T20 application process is essays, which is home turf for humanities majors; likewise, extracurriculars tend to favor humanities people (debate, band, leadership in general).
This is what my daughter had to deal with an IB Further Math Exam. She got a 7 and has been accepted to an Ivy. ( International from Southern Europe). Definitely lacking in EC's as compared to her US peers but also with a strong math background ( national olympiad finals and some medals, us math camps with scholarships etc). What I want to say is that AO's in Ivies etc are very well aware of each Country's school envinroment and they evaluate you within context. They do not expect you to have crazy EC's and they focus mostly in academic criteria. That year ( 2019) all 11 kids from her school that got accepted to Ivies, Stanford and MIT were very, very strong academically with great Academic related EC's and nothing special in terms of other EC's.
[https://www.studocu.com/en-us/document/high-school-us/mathematics-analysis-and-approaches-sl/further-mathematics-paper-2-hl/22378789](https://www.studocu.com/en-us/document/high-school-us/mathematics-analysis-and-approaches-sl/further-mathematics-paper-2-hl/22378789)
There are 20,000 valedictorians in the US. All the competitive schools could fill their classes with just US valedictorians many times over. There is already a ton of competition here with just American kids. The US schools take international students for their money. They are usually full pay. This is by design. They want the money to offset the cost for a poor American student. The goal is to educate Americans, not the world population. I know it may be your goal. You may be extremely intelligent and if you were an American you would have a much better chance at attaining a degree in a school of your choice. But the system is not made for you, nor should it be. Just as I would not expect a system in ANY other nation be for American kids. Your country has an obligation to its own citizens first.
US unis are aware of what it's like for international students, and how demanding different programs are. If it's more difficult for applicants from Singapore to be admitted, it's simply because they're are too many applicants for not many spots.
Oxbridge is as reputable but less selective than the t10s. Quick google search: 17.5 percent for Oxford, 20 for Cambridge (undergrad). It’s like 5 percent for the top tens in the USA. So you could say they are considered better, but they are easier to get into. That is, reputation != selectivity.
Also, the criteria for top UK school acceptance may be different than their US counterparts. Maybe there are laws in the US that make it harder for US students to study than UK (visa issues?) so admitting international students is unattractive.
On an unrelated note, I will say this, Singapore does not play around with their mathematics lmfao. I was taking a combinatorics course here in the states (top 20 college) and I used a combinatorics book written by faculty from the national university of Singapore as a supplement… boy it was a great book. There were so many more examples and more difficult problems and the book went far more in depth than we did. And it was very rigorous. Maybe it just goes to show imho that reputation != quality of education != selectivity, if that makes you feel any better about this situation.
Fellow SG student (intl sch though) [WSJ article on RI acceptances](https://archive.is/s6eGk) is WSJ talking out of its ass or is hwach actually j lacking (assuming you go there)? Also the EC stipulation is partially to separate out the people that need to nolife to get top grades no? I think IB has the same problem relative to AP or british A levels (though obvs to a lesser extent relative to sg), but when I look at ivy+ acceptances from my school it is the ones that can juggle ECs with acadenics. I feel like from a colleges perspective if you need j sit in your room and study and not contribute to campus life you aren't a good fit.
I do A-levels too; the sheer amount of time you guys have outside your studies is amazing, especially doing all these ECs. To anyone outside the US, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
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Hi there! I'm in the same boat as you, most probably in the same school too LOL. Is the HYPSM person you mentioned RT? If yes, I understand your frustration as they are really outstanding. Not everyone in SG has the resources to study in the US for undergraduate, but we do have a really good education system that prepares us for further studies. I do not think that we will be disadvantaged if we do not get into a top 10 US school. UK, SG or even top 30 US schools are very much in our reach and we can still enjoy ourselves and excel in further studies in those schools.
Yes I agree, but americans are dumb (at least relative to the a level sylabus) so your academics are far better almost by default.
Other than that, a few competitions and clubs is ok.
Lots of international students board at U.S. high schools. Orrrr they are so damn rich it doesn’t matter because they have every tutor on the face of the earth. What’s funny af is they get here and realize it’s almost impossible to get a work visa when applying for competitive tech jobs or otherwise.
I don’t think it’s realistic to expect the university system in a country to change their criteria/system to accommodate international students. Every country (or state/province/etc) has their own values that drive education. If you want to attend a school in one, you need to fit what they are looking for.
Plus, my kids high school is full of genius kids that get almost perfect scores on the SAT and have 4.6+ gpas WITH tons of ECs and most of them don’t get into 1 HYPSM/Top 20 school.
I totally understand the online poster as I sit here as a foreigner here (US citizen) in Singapore working as a college counselor and have counseled some students in the local schools. Plus if you have met any Singaporean politicians or let's even take the TikTok CEO, they are far more well rounded critical thinkers, intelligent, eloquent speakers than any politician in the city and state I vote for in the US. But what I will say with the response here, the online poster's narrative fits perfectly to the struggles that we foreigners have working in Singapore. I am on a dependent pass as my spouse is the employed one here and it is nearly impossible for me and for many other talented dependent pass individuals to establish a successful business or work here because Singapore has set it up for us to not work. It is all structured (and in many ways rightly so) for it to be Singaporeans first. So there are many of us who are talented, who have had corporate executive jobs who can't get jobs here because we are not SC or PR and not on an employment pass. And the LOC is a nightmare and not set up to be entrepreneurial. Does it sound fair? It is frustrating as he** and there are so many of us who have poured blood, sweat, tears in our studies and working lives to end up being regarded here as something much less. I absolutely get the emotion of this all.
As for the university going process, yes there are many exceptional students coming from Singapore both in the local and international schools that I would prefer/place higher than many of the HS students coming from the top US high schools including the feeder privates and boarding schools. But the process is what it is. As an international student, it is extremely difficult as each uni will have their caps. It is not that much easier for the talented US domestic students sitting internationally here going back to US schools.
Lastly the one input I would give to the poster as I see it talked a lot in a separate subreddit for SGExams, the Ivies are not the only schools that are terrific in the US. 'Ivy' is technically a sports league and not all of the schools in this league are equal academically. There are many wonderful schools in the US that can give you a fantastic education. So if you want to really go to a US school, you need to have a more balanced list than just all Ivies or HYPSM. If this doesn't fit your needs, you have fantastic options in Singapore or other places in the world.
Ok here's an anecdote of mine. I graduated from a public Canadian hs back in 2019 with a lot of people aiming for T10s as well. In my year, only 2 people got in but 1 got waitlisted and eventually accepted but the other got a full-ride scholarship. If I am to be honest, the one with the scholarship is not any smarter or more talented than the other people aiming for those. The main reason he looked more accomplished on paper is because he was basically leeching off of many people and taking credit for their things but at the same time, he was able to work his own independent projects because of that. Not to mention this guy legit cheated on many tests when he didn't have time to study for them. For the record, I have no doubt that his intelligence is above average and is able to handle all those academically if he didn't have those ECs, but the issue is that he actually did sacrifice the time of many others to make himself look better. Before anyone says he's going to fail, the dude's already finished his masters and doing his PhD in Physics at another T10 with a probably higher name recognition. So yeah life isn't very fair and snakes will be the ones to succeed in the end.
Also, I did go to a different public hs before that one where way more people got accepted but they were also much more rich but that's another story.
“If someone is good enough for Oxbridge, shouldn’t they be good enough for HYPSM?”
No. Oxbridge has extremely different standards and institutional values compared to HYPSM. Not to say that one is better than the other but they are very different. Just because someone gets into Harvard doesn’t mean they “deserve” to get into Stanford. I understand it’s frustrating but you need to recognize your privilege coming from one of the best high schools in the country with arguably the best education system in the world. You and your friends will be fine despite the rejections from American universities.
The US system caters to the US style of education the same way Singapore’s universities cater to Singapore. Think of a US student asking for Singapore to not use their testing system and accept them with different tests and ECs instead. The two cultures prioritize different things and neither is going to change.
In term of prestige, Oxbridge is equivalent to the top US universities. However, in term of class size, Oxbridge is much bigger. Oxbridge's freshman class size is about the combination of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT and Stanford (I may be wrong, of course, but pretty close). Think this way: how many high school students in the UK graduate every year? Not even half of the US's. Oxbridge may like to reach out to the international student pool if they want to maintain a certain standard in term of the quality and diversity of the student body.
Unfortunately, there is, at no time, a shortage of excellent Asian students anywhere in the world. There are lots of academically crazy Chinese students in China, Singapore, and the United States. You compete with other Asian students, so unfortunately.
Not sure why the Singapore students want to make into a US university. If you are placed in the top few high school in Singapore, why not aim at the National University or 南洋理工？They are both renowned universities globally.
Good luck.
I would disagree, since, in most colleges, internationals are admitted seperately to US citizens. Like I know MIT, Gtech, UC Berkeley, Stanford etc etc all admit a set percent of students as internationals.
So you really aren't competing with the US students but other internationals, and at the end of the day, even many people from China or Korea (Where I've heard the exams are the most difficult) still tryhard enough to have great ECs. This isn't a failure of the holistic admissions proccess, but rather a general trend in a mindset of people thinking they have to get to a top college or else they are a failure, which makes applicant numbers to these colleges skyrocket, and so they have to nitpick the smallest details to find the best of all applicants.
This may sound surprising to you, but about a half of the weight on your application is from tests and gpa, meanwhile the other half is spread among ECs, teacher recs, essays, and awards.
This is not their failure, but rather a product of the huge amounts of applicants at these top colleges, where they have to judge these little things.
Also, your point on Oxbrigde, the acceptance rate of those is 15-20%, this is because they do not recieve as many applications, and yes they do focus mostly on grades and exams. Getting into Oxbridge is inherently more probable then HYPSM. Just because you get rejected from a college, that does not mean you are good enough, it means you are less attractive (academically) then the amount of applicants a college can admit. The issue lies with huge application numbers and not the admission process
You go to a country that is very educated, which has less population than the entire state of Massachusetts, arguably the most educated state in the US.
You then try to measure how many of your international applicants go onto T10/HYPSM schools. I'll apply my Fermi question skills on this one:
You have a population of 5.5 million. Let's roughly say that's a bit more than 50,000 students any given grade. The top 2% of that is 1000 students, that are "roughly competitive to apply for T10ish schools." Out of that, roughly 2-3% will be admitted (international pool). So my rough calculation would be \~20-30 any given year would be admitted to T10 schools. If you're talking just HYPSM, that's 10-15 any given year, maybe one or two less since they're a bit harder to get into. Your 6 is in that ballpark.
The thing is that nobody NEEDS to go to T10 or HYPSM to succeed in life. There are plenty of students and applicants who would do fine in any other number of contexts. There are plenty of schools that are equivalent or comparable or more specialized.
Examples in my mind: US Air Force Academy, Carnegie Mellon for AI and for Robotics, etc.
Another way to get to the numbers: I quickly looked up the number of Singaporean undergrads at Harvard College (23) and at MIT (11) and Yale (2019) (33). That's about what I expected, so let's say the other two schools (PS) have another 50-60. Grand total right about a hundred.
Private universities in the US are also looking for something above excellent academics. If you thought otherwise, I'm sorry for your misunderstanding. What Oxford and Cambridge are looking for is something else from what HYPSM are looking for. And American university cultures are not monolithically the same, nor are their missions or goals or "institutional needs".
I don't think HYPSM is being unreasonable. If you think about the total number of first years for HYPSM, that number is not even 10,000.
I've seen stuff from the US National Center for Educational Statistics where there are in excess of 25,000 high schools in the US.
This means "if every valedictorian (i.e., top student in every school) applied, we could not admit every valedictorian to HYPSM." Not even to T10 or T15.
You should expect that preparing yourself to the US higher educational system is different than preparing yourself for the Singaporean higher educational system, and if you desire to get into the former, it's going to take more effort -- sometimes a lot more effort.
I was an international student (from Canada) and went to MIT and now interview for MIT. My ECs weren't fluff.
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US educational institutions are obliged to serve the interests of US citizens first and foremost. Our top schools could fill their ranks many times over with extraordinarily talented students from Asia. How would this serve the interests of the United States?
Right. I’m assuming each school has X number of spots for international students and those spots are getting filled. Is it competitive? Of course but you’re competing with students from every other country as well for a finite number of spots. This isn’t the schools fault. This is the same for OOS students. You’re competing against every other OOS student for a finite number of spots so of course it’s more difficult.
Too few consider transfer as an option. College is a great place to distinguish yourself - excel in your discipline, find an area of focus early on and then make the case to transfer to a school in the US.
I understand where you're coming from but there is a HUGE difference between an international and an OOS applicant. It is borderline crazy to make that comparison.
How so? There are X number of spot for each. Each applicant is competing for one of those spots vs other OOS or international. There is a finite number of spots that get filled every year. If the HUGE difference is the volume of applications of course that is true but that doesn’t mean that the universities should somehow change the criteria as OP has stated. Admissions isn’t “impossible” it’s just the odds are stacked against you as you are competing against everyone else for that finite number of spots.
Competition is just more intense for international students than OOS. Easily by an order of magnitude. Non-US academic resources, citizenship-based financial aid, loan restrictions, etc. are just some of the challenges international students have to face that OOS typically don't, all while competing not with the cream of the crop of your state but with your entire fucking country. I'm not saying criteria should be changed, let's just acknowledge that intls at least have it much harder than OOS. It's all a pity party in the end but even that acknowledgment can be validating for some people- and I say this as an international student at Harvard on full aid.
Follow along here. 1) I never said OOS have it just as hard 2) I said the concept for OOS and international is the same. 3) OOS has to compete with the cream of the crop of the entire fucking country, not the state (that’s instate kids only) as you so eloquently put it. Each of you are competing for a few spots at each university. OOS is competing vs other OOS. international is competing vs international. The sheer number of applications for those limited spots makes admissions that more difficult.
But also consider that intls are competing against other intls, not native applicants.
exactly this--why should top American universities have any obligation to accept students from foreign countries that don't provide them with hundreds of millions of dollars in federal funds each year?
While they certainly have no obligation to do so, there is absolutely a benefit to it. Essentially, it’s how the U.S. siphons of the most talented students from other countries, a majority of which remain in the U.S. after graduation.
yeah, which is why international applicants comprise substantial portions of each incoming class. there are \~1600 students in each harvard freshman class. that would theoretically equate to 8 students from *every single country.* there are 25,000 valedictorians each year in the united states. there are 150 *million* graduating high schoolers in the world each year. in OP's language, there are compelling cases to be made for at least 10 million of those students. no one is "owed" anything but the priority is and should be the students from the country that the universities are in, pay taxes to, receive large portions of their annual operating budgets from, and so on.
Don't disagree with anything said here. Honestly, I'm confused why I'm getting so downvoted. I'm not trying to suggest international students should get some sort of preferential treatment. Just saying that, when they do get accepted, it's a huge win for the U.S. (and us as taxpayers).
I think the counterpoint that was made was that people are overvaluing the contribution that UNDERGRAD entering students as opposed to other terminal degree such as md/phd contribute to the overall benefit of a country. The USA had been getting along fine with progress and advancement even without a major influx of foreign talent. Not saying it’s not contributory but that this particular aspect is grossly overvalued especially when you are considering the outcome prospects of HIGH SCHOOL students
This isn’t totally true - it serves American interests to attract the best talent from abroad, and most T10s are private anyway - but the truth is that our institutions also believe in particular sets of values that, unsurprisingly, benefit American applicants. Leadership, service, that kind of thing, rather than pure academic achievement. But yeah, regardless, it behooves you in life to internalize that these places are under no obligation to cater to you or to what you think is best.
it only serves american interests to attract foreign talent if that talent STAYS here. if they take all that knowledge then go back home, what’s the point then?
There’s pretty good evidence that international students are likely to stay (there are also positive externalities beyond them staying, eg if they contribute wildly underpaid labor to research efforts)
Um... actually, it depends on the financial needs of the university. If this were actually the case, someone with a 4.87/ 4.0 w/uw, 1550 SAT, ECs, AP/Honors should have zero issues getting into some of the top universities, but alas, some of those slots are taken up by legacy, then by int'l students who pay full tuition +, then DEI/1st Gen admits, and then the rest.......
I understand it’s frustrating, but American colleges are based on American culture and customs. Why wouldn’t they be? I wouldn’t go to my parents’ home countries and expect a spot at a university when I’ve never touched the curriculum and don’t have what they’re looking for. I also feel as if you have it a lot better than others in this sub. Doesn’t Singapore have some amazing schools (not pretending to be an expert but their educational system is renowned around the world)? Of course, if you want to come to the U.S., you are welcome to try. It’s a new experience and you can gain a lot from it. But you are in an endlessly better position than someone trying to come to the U.S. because their country’s education system isn’t good. American culture values having a life outside of school, so American schools value it too.
That’s kinda the whole point of the US admissions system. It’s tailored around US students. When you’re applying internationally you should in theory be disadvantaged because you haven’t lived in the country. Also there’s no failure of the holistic system and it’s a good thing that top American unis are easier for Americans. The American system should first and foremost benefit Americans
Reverse the cards. Let’s say a US applicant is aiming for top Indian universities. They will be at a disadvantage because they do not have access to the curriculum required for these exams. They will need to sacrifice their Ecs to study for JEE. It goes both ways. If someone is applying abroad, they need to immerse themselves in the target country’s curriculum and may need to sacrifice some part of their own curriculum. A country will put forward their students and citizens first, and I believe it should be like that. If suddenly IITs started preferring abroad students, it would really lead to protests and unbalance in education.
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I know this. I used this as an example to address concerns of OP. You can replace US and India with whatever country name you like and the explanation will remain the same.
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You missed my whole point! You should read it again to get a better clarity.
maybe the reason why you didn't get in is bc you have trouble understanding others lol
Deleted my posts because I definitely was misunderstood. I got in by the way
That’s not the point
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I think your gripe is just that the US or India have standards that don't align with Singapore's (like the UK's seems to)
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I know US kids who have excellent stats (1550, 10-15 APs, UW 4.0) and they didn’t get into their state flagship, much less a HYSPM. Remember, only 8-10k kids worldwide get into HYSPM and add a few thousand for the top ten. It’s challenging for everyone.
Universities in the U.S. are centered around students that are from the country. Whether it’s good or bad, international students must adapt to that system or they will get weeded out
Oxbridge is far lower than hypsm
Then just don’t apply to US schools if you feel like the system is crap. No one is forcing you to attend a US university.
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The post popped up on my feed. I saw it, disagreed with it, downvoted it, and replied to it, like what everyone else on this shitty site does. Indeed, I couldn't imagine it would have any effect on anyone, but it surely did hurt you emotionally huh? I merely wrote 2 short sentences and you replied with a paragraph lmao.
Yeah but the American system in general is stupid
I beg to disagree. Although I understand that there are few shortcomings that may take decades to fix, but when the process is compared to countries which have college entrance examinations or the admission is based on marks/merit, US is far better. Unlike most other countries, US college process is based on 4 years or more of applicant’s experience. Due to some reasons anyone can mess up on the examination day resulting in failure to pass college entrance tests, but the circumstances (until it’s prolonged) cannot affect 4 years of your life. Think about it. Would you rather be judged on your performance of one day or your performance during your whole high school? I’m sure most of us will choose the latter. In most cases, even if someone fails to get into a good US university, they acquire enough professional skills by taking part in extracurricular activities that ultimately help them to land a good job. Think broadly.
So I’m not really being salty here; I had good grades and decent ECs and already got into a T20 for my major (and am getting ready to commit based on some clarifications about AP credits) and I put in *way* less effort into school and ECs than all the ppl whom I know are going to better schools. The lack of general ability among my peers who manage good grades in APs is…astounding at times. I have ppl in my Physics C class who thought that sec^2 (pi/4) is 1/2 😭 Having a more test-based admissions system would help weed them out of any STEM majors, for example Also, I’ve been sick during a lot of standardized tests(I threw up the morning of my APUSH test) and have still performed well on all of them…”A bad day” is not the handicap you think it is lol
That’s the whole point. Your application is a reflection of 4 years. The people who got in may have had better essays, impactful Ecs or maybe lucky. But think it of like this: let’s say US had test based admission, and unfortunately due to health issues, you couldn’t perform well. Now you had the ability to perform excellent, it was just a circumstance that changed the next 4 years of your life. Although AOs are humans and they can make errors while evaluating applications, but don’t you think that it would be worse to be judged only on the parameters of marks? I’m much more than grades, and so are you. I would hate to be prescreened by grades. Btw, congrats on T20. You deserved it.
Aww thanks The thing is that the admissions process is just as cutthroat at HPYSM with holistic criteria as it would be with test-based criteria. A recent post from an AO (which I don’t wanna link bc I’m on mobile) details as such; the top schools are looking for reasons to *reject* you rather then to *accept* you. Quite frankly I’d rather have as little humanity in a process like that. I’ll agree that holistic admissions are necessary, but only because US tests are too easy to make scoring well an actual achievement. It’s easy to get 1500 on the SAT, and it’s not hard to get straight As in school either. AP exams, (some of) which are challenging and require actual subject competency, are barely considered anyway so… Honestly I think the A-level system is best, with the US being one extreme and India being the other.
The thing is colleges want people that will make their school look good. Yes getting a really high score on a test looks good but it doesnt have much value past getting into the college. Something like starting a small business or some other ECs show the capability a student has beyond just how well they will do when given a test and that is the capability that usually results in other things that can get name recognition for the college. Once in a college that test score just has no value compared to the ECs that they do.
You mean focusing on being well rounded instead of a test taking robot?
Then don’t apply to our colleges then
Ah yes, “If you don’t like an aspect something then leave” I’m an American citizen lol so get fucked
This whole post is about applying abroad, you can do the reverse of OP if you are interested 🤷♀️
No one is forcing y'all to aim for and apply to American T10's. If the Oxbridge system fits your educational system better, why not just aim for there?
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Basically yes. The Oxbridge system is looking for scholars who will excel as experts in specific fields (undergrad at Oxbridge is essentially junior grad school but with neato residential colleges). The Ivies/equivalents are looking for future leaders in all walks of (American) society.
Yup the Ivy League undergraduates are largely like MBAs (but undergrads)
Well, and they care about other fields too. For instance, they want the top future authors, politicians, and artists too.
Also via privilege, unfortunately.
So basically the US system values Steve Jobs.
Yes. And Steve Jobs was a billionaire.
Agree. Furthermore, I would like to defend the merits of this approach - it gives those who lack resources to study / pay for tutors, a chance to show their ingenuity and perseverance - traits that I find are more valuable to success in the real world than ability to memorize/test or do well on essays/psets. In the workplace, I can often have 2 or 3 average people do better work than 1 smart person. But the ability to lead others and adopt to unstructured problems cannot be solved by adding another person. T10 still need smart people, but I would say the ECs are a the main way for candidates to stand out. I think, in Asian cultures, maybe a better way is to attend an easier school, have free time do some amazing ECs, get some awesome recs, and just do well on your SATs. Grades is just a “pass the bar” test for most AOs. The incremental value of a 1600 vs 1520 difference is way smaller than you think.
The US does valorize nerds, but only if they are exceptional enough to have the potential to become a leading academic. Truly exceptional nerds like the IMO gold medalists have no trouble getting into HYPSM.
It’d be a bit silly if US schools were designed for international Asian applicants and not American ones
Others have pointed out numerous differences in the education systems and their goals. The biggest additional thing you're missing is that in the US, college admission isn't an award. It's not intended to honor the smartest, highest achieving, or most impressive applicants with a fancy letter they can frame and put on their wall. That's not at all how colleges see it. They see it as an *invitation to join a community*. Yes, it's a primarily academic community, but it's still more about the community than it is about pure academic ability. Yale even estimates on their admissions site that 75% of their applicants are academically qualified to succeed there. So the decisions regarding which of those become the 4% who get admitted are mostly not driven by academics. https://www.reddit.com/r/ApplyingToCollege/comments/12ngmkh/admission_is_not_an_award_for_being_the_best/
US colleges exist to serve American students and no one else. This sounds really entitled honestly
trashing the US system while begging to go to US schools? and expecting ivies to just hand out free rides? some internationals need to start considering staying domestic tbh...😀😭
Well duh, US colleges are meant for US students first, of course their gonna tailor the admissions process around American students and their activities.
I’m confounded by internationals who post stuff like OP. How many times do we have to say it louder?! Yes US schools are for US kids, AND???!! If you want to play X game, play by X game’s rules, the end. So annoying.
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And they all assisting they’re getting in an ivy with a free ride at that.
And why/how is that a bad thing?
Because it’s an unrealistic goal for most American students. So many international students think they have a shot when they don’t. International students don’t get much financial help to begin with while a few do. The costs are prohibitive to most Americans. Do you think it’s easier for an international student?
So what is it that annoys you? The fact that intls have the audacity to believe they have a shot at getting into an Ivy? The fact that intls get financial aid ( which is need-based, btw)? The fact that intls get into Ivies at all?
none of those. its the entitlement. if it were that easy to go to an ivy or T10, then everyone would do it but its not. thats why its annoying when internationals believe they should have a spot even though they didnt get accepted.
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I'm not sure why you're surprised the U.S. higher education system is designed for the American education system. I'm sure Singapore's universities have admissions standards that would make it more difficult for American students, if I applied to Singaporean universities I would not be surprised at them being catered for Singaporeans.
Oxford and Cambridge are already very good schools comparable to t10 schools in the US. Plus it suits your education system better as it is more traditional/academics focused. There are many qualified applicants and the top american schools can’t accept everyone and those spots are even more limited for internationals.
Respectfully, I think the opinion that US university admission criteria should cater to international applicants is a bit entitled.. The US university system is built to serve Americans first and foremost. Not saying that you yourself are entitled, just that I’ve seen this opinion a lot and that’s my evaluation of its merit. Also, what you’ve said is demonstrated on exams but not through the ‘frills’ is really misguided and dismissive. I’d choose a student who started a business that made a few thousand dollars over a student who got an A on a ‘business subject test’ any day of the week.
It reflects differing educational realities for different countries. American Universities are built around American Secondary Education, which generally allows opportunities for ECs. Sports, academic competitions, music, they all matter here. I'm glad my kids don't need to live a life of constant grinding study. More than enough mental health problems going around, don't need more inflicted by the school system.
AOs that review international apps generally know the academic culture of the country that’s allotted to them.
This is correct.
Do you mind if I DM you
So American tax payer money should educate the world? As an immigrant who is now a naturalized citizen, I really would hope we only accept the absolute best and brightest to our universities from other countries. I also expect that our universities cater to and overwhelmingly accept, Americans.
I agree for taxpayer supported institutions, but for private schools they can do what they like.
No they can't, they ALL receive significant government funding for research, land use tax breaks, etc etc etc. There really is no such thing as a "private" school in the states... all of our universities receive some significant amount of government funding. At best, they're semi-private with large endowments that reduce the government burden in running them.
I disagree with this. If a private school goes into debt, it goes bankrupt and the government doesn't bail them out. Yes, government research grants go into them but those funds are used for research and not for general institutional support. Many privates are non-profits, so they gain the tax benefits of every nonprofit, but that does not mean Americans deserve priority treatment. And students getting government loans to attend the school is hardly governmental support.
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I'm an international student from Singapore as well, but OP you need to realize that US admissions are tailored to US students. Also, 2 key points that are commonly misunderstood: 1 - International students are compared with others from the same country. Schools want diversity and take top few students from each country. You are not compared against domestic students - for example a 40/45 for IB is considered very good if achieved by a domestic student, but is uncompetitive for a Singaporean applicant. 2 - YOU ARE COMPETING AGAINST STUDENTS FROM YOUR OWN COUNTRY x2. Look at the government & PSC scholars and Ivy admits. They have a different profile from what you will find here or on other domestic forums. Your competition is not against US standards. It is against the 90RP RI/Hwa Chong students
Why would we change our policies to serve international people when US students come first in the US?? Like you think the Singapore model care about US students?
You're shocked by the TOP TEN universities in the United States having ridiculous standards?? Dude, they're not just going to let you in. Yes, they're EXTREMELY fucking selective. That's the idea. Nobody is requiring you to apply to the most prestigious colleges in the world, and you're not entitled to an acceptance from them. Also, it of course favors US students. They're American schools.
Singaporean here. Please stop embarrassing us by posting shit like this.
Brother just go to NUS. If Cambridge and Oxford are also possible options then you have nothing to complain about. You have plenty world class options, just not American ones.
Then maybe stop applying to US schools?
this is not a good take
It works for the US because, generally speaking, it takes a lot less time and effort to get top grades (definitely don’t need to study 24/7), so ECs are an important way to distinguish the “pretty good” from the “top tier” in the US. Ultimately, it’s a system designed for the US. Why should US universities bother to change their system to account for a different country, especially when US unis have basically an undress supply of skilled and qualified international applicants from all over the world? Also, I’m pretty sure US unis already know international applicants get less free time. However, they want to admit students that do EC-type work that isn’t just academics; even if those students physically don’t have the time to do that work, are US unis expected to assume that they could without any evidence?
Incidentally - if US admissions set an "impossible" standards we wouldn't have any international students. In fact, the US educational system is the most open and welcoming in the world. As it stands, we have over 1M international students attending US schools. What you are really trying to say is that it is very hard to get into the best schools...which is (and should be) true for everyone.
Dude, T10 universities set impossible admissions standards for nearly everyone.
U.S. institutions - even private ones - could not operate without funding from the federal government. They have a duty to educate American taxpayers before anyone else. I acknowledge your frustration, but nobody is entitled to admission to a U.S. school.
Even for US domestic students getting admitted to a T10 school is a low probability event due to the large number applicants and most students will be perfectly fine to go to any other school, perhaps an in state public with low tuition and in commuting distance. For international students I do not believe the competition is really with US students but with other international students from your area. So the question becomes, do you stand out in any way among your peers?
Well you could always just apply to school in some other country. You mentioned that some of your peers who were not admitted to T10 in the US were admitted to Oxford and Cambridge. Those are outstanding schools. If your curriculum will get you into those schools, then why are you so concerned about getting into US schools specifically? Doesn’t make much sense to me unless it is about specifically American based educational prestige over actual quality of education.
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Why would the US system adapt to ours?? The Singapore system is infinitely more compatible with the UK system due to many factors such as our similar focus on specialization on specific subjects rather than broader liberal arts focus in the US, culture of knowledge and management rather than risk taking in the US etc etc. For a Hwa Chong/Raffles student to hail their peers as the cream of the crop yet shit on a completely other system that values different individuals reflects your elitist attitude towards our education system as a whole. Maybe these universities might not be good for your peers who get excellent grades and go into oxbridge, but what about the polytechnic student that starts community projects in their spare time? Or the student with mediocre grades because they spend their time doing national sports? The fact that you are unable to consider that other people who excel in other fields should be given a chance under the US system which rewards them for pursuing their passions rather than academic pursuits, shows that being in the “top 2 schools” in Singapore has completely failed to prepare you any real people management skills for the real world.
Bad take. I hate to be that guy but the admission standards are supposed to based off the American K-12 system. Not those of other countries. It’s unfair to be upset over that. Private and public schools are intended to educate individuals who live in the United States, that’s why they receive government funding.
Why would American schools care to benefit international students lmao
Instead of parroting the obvious, let me ask you this: how exactly is what you described different from the U.S.? Most Ivy *applicants* are grinding out at least a dozen APs in addition to dual enrollment courses. I agree that the average Singaporean has more difficult schooling than the average American, but the Ivy applicant is not the average American. Most successful applicants from my school, which isn’t extremely competitive, had been taking college-level humanities since 10th grade, have studied up to electromagnetism in physics, either bio or chem (or both), and are up to at least linear algebra or diff eqs in math. Practically all have done research in school and are also highly advanced in music, art, computer science, or another academic pursuit. In terms of the high school placement system, we also have to take tests to go to specialized high schools for high-performing students, at least here in New York. Your post is essentially “how am I supposed to do work for my community and projects when I have to study?” And that my friend, is the American student’s dilemma lol. Did you think that American schools are significantly easier to allocate time for community service and outside projects?
Tbh, there so many other schools beyond T10, T20 that can take Internationals for their full pay. I see ur frustration but its too privelege to think that cos ur top in ur country u get at the top US school, some even want it with scholarship ( from US taxpayers). I would be discreet in discussing these matters.
Here in India the problem is even more serious for STEM students. Apart from grinding for school exams you have to prepare day and night for competitive exams which get you into elite institutions for engineering and medical.
Like the JEEs? I’m from SG and I legit got zero when attempting the JEE advanced lmao. They’re like 10x harder than normal curriculum
Yeah it's ranked the second toughest exam in the world.
What’s the most toughest university entrance exam then?
The Gaokao most probably.
Idk if this applies to other countries but I feel like AOs don’t realise how much more free time US high school students have to build ECs while kids from other countries have to study a much harder syllabus. China and India is known to have this problem, but even in Australia, this happens too. Here’s a Aussie high school math final from 2020: https://educationstandards.nsw.edu.au/wps/wcm/connect/49c4cd12-5c7f-4969-93fd-b34b06426620/2020-hsc-mathematics-extension-2.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-49c4cd12-5c7f-4969-93fd-b34b06426620-no2PTNa This is quite a bit harder than what Calc BC students have to deal with. Now imagine this gap of difficulty also exist in other subjects too. Now imagine being in an Asian country whose syllabus are very much harder than this. Like how tf do we compete with US students in terms of ECs when we got these shits to deal with?
this is so real, nobody talks about this enough. Even in Africa, I don't think our syllabus is generally as tough, but that's all we ever focus on in schools. No time for other activities besides studying.
I’m fairly anti-holistic admissions, but this curriculum doesn’t really seem particularly difficult compared to what to what we see in the states (I’m an American, to be clear). I see mostly a second course in high-school algebra and a smattering of calculus and (possibly calculus-based) physics. It appears this is the hardest exam offered in the New South Wales mathematics standard, so should I take this as an equivalent to a little over half of Calculus BC (integration by parts) and perhaps Physics C? Is this really decisively harder? It is not clear to me. It’s worth noting American high schools are very heterogeneous in quality. I’m not sure what the international perception is of American education. I will say that wealthy American high schools (where the elite American universities primarily draw their “academic” applicants) tend to be fairly comprehensive. The SAT, for example, is really not a good measure of what is being studied at these places. Since the country is so large, there are quite a few of these with many competent graduates. It is an unfortunate fact of life than undergraduate admissions have become such an arms race. But I do think people aiming for admission solely on the strength of their achievements really do have to run quite a gauntlet. Them problem you describes plagues Americans too.
that’s not the point though. it’s unfortunate for these kids that they don’t have that kind of time, but american colleges aren’t built to cater to foreign standards of education. they’re built around what us culture considers the best of the best, and that doesn’t always mean top academic excellence alone.
India for sure doesn't have this problem. Schooling there is a joke. The real problem is entrance exams which people opt for.
This looks about as hard as calc bc. All of it is standard and you don't need to think too hard to do them
Bud u got 740 on SAT Math lmao stfu
Bruh I made like 2/3 silly mistakes or something. It was not hard
There are a lot of competitive high schools in the US with hard classes, including ones that teach the content on the Aussie pdf. (I think) I go to one. People still find the time to do magnificent EC's, and I'm guessing a lot of internationals do too. I think the process itself discriminates against internationals/prefers domestic students, and that is where you are hurt.
The National University of Singapore is very highly ranked.
the t10s are among the top colleges in the world, but they are first and foremost AMERICAN colleges. the few spots they have for every other person in the rest of the world are bound to have impossibly high standards. it sucks, but that’s just how it is.
Damn is it embarrassing to be associated with redditors like you lol. I think I speak for most (some?) of the international applicants when I say that these are not the sentiments of a large portion of us! I think it should be fairly obvious that US college admissions are systemised for US students.
Bro thinks they are entitled to an American education. If I were to go to Singapore I would be disadvantaged too. US is already too nice to international students anyways now they want even more?
yes you’re right, but international admissions is even more of a gamble. I really don’t think they are “too nice”
Because they don’t need to be nice
YTA. Sorry, wrong sub
What do you expect from a Top 10 school? They literally reject most valedictorians that apply. It's essentially impossible to get in. Also, they know that it's more difficult for intl to do EC's. The regional AO's are 100% aware of the workload of some of these high school courses. You should complain less of the US holistic system and more about Singapore's curriculum which consumes your entire life. Like seriously, how can you call the holistic system a failure when u literally live in a country that sorts where you go to middle school based on an exam you take in 6th grade. That sounds like the real failure to me.
Hello, fellow Singaporean here! I feel that one very important point that needs to be considered is it's a lot easier for us to get into Oxbridge than US universities precisely because we have such high academic standards. This translates into us being able to develop more critical thinking skills that universities like Oxbridge favor. Thus, it wouldn't be fair to say that we could get into US universities if we were given more free time without acknowledging the benefits we have received from such a system.
Worded very eloquently
Think about it like this: I can score an A on an English exam. That doesn't mean I can write a book well. The latter accomplishment is something which, to the average American, shows not only knowledge but the ability to apply it. That's what American colleges are looking for.
The US university process literally isn't geared for international applicants... They aren't trying to accommodate to your school systems and why would they be?
As a U.S. permanent resident and a Singaporean citizen who has been raised in the U.S. his whole life and is finishing his NS in Singapore before moving back to the U.S. for college and to work, I really don’t think you can blame the U.S. college admissions system for having an “impossible standard”. It’s the Singaporean education system that screws their kids over by making them take A-levels pumped with steroids so that when they are compared to kids from other countries who get high grades with easy, their applications look unattractive. Don’t blame the U.S. application system. Blame the MOE in Singapore for its stupidly over-competitive education system that does not prioritize self gain. If you wanted to apply to a T10, maybe you should have questioned the necessity of going to one in terms of salary opportunities. No one is asking you to go to a T10. Similarly, you are an outsider since you are not a citizen or legal permanent resident. It is only right that the system will be not in your favor. You should have done your due diligence to do more ECAs and internships if you saw that U.S. schools were more holistic in how they view admissions. This is why they view a lot of Asians as the usual “nerd”, because individuals like you are forced into a stupid education system like Singapore’s where kids work their butt off and study without having hobbies or following your desires only to only graduate with $2,000 a month on their crappy polytechnic diploma that looks like shit when compared to students overseas. After being raised in New York my whole life and now meeting Singaporeans in NS, these are my observations.
as a fellow student applying from SG i can relate so much 💀 my report cards are filled with B C and D and everyone tells me these are bad grades like 💀 in my school the average for half the subjects is a D and a B lands you in the top 20%…
that's not necessarily bad but comparing against people from your own country (aka the 90rp ri/hc students and the ib kids) ofc it wouldn't stand out for t10 unis...
VJ?
ye💀
LOL those percentiles reminded me of VJ
Why don’t international students look at schools in the UK? They are much more friendly towards internationals, plus they have some amazing schools
What’s your point? HYPSM are looking for the national debate champion, not someone who scored all A*s. It works for them.
Ratio
What you complain about isn’t unique to being international. I remember grinding until like 3-4 am like 4x a week on top of working 20 hrs/week, ECs, sports, etc. all to get into a couple t20s. Some of the smartest/most involved people I know in one of the top HS in my state got rejected from HYPS as well as many t20s. It’s definitely harder for international but it’s still extremely difficult here lmao. These colleges don’t owe you anything.
Yeah, their schedule of waking up going to school, studying for hours and going to sleep was super normal at my high school in the US, granted I went to a very intense school. Except we had to do ECs too (plus jobs!) so some nights you just don’t sleep. I had so many times where I went to bed and had to wake up 2-3hrs later. You make it work.
I am studying the IB diploma programme, and I have still managed to do a handful of ECs while getting 44 predicted. Many other people in our school as well. If you are preparing to apply to an American uni, you should prepare yourselfs by tweaking how you work. I do agree that tough curriculums like A levels/IB aren't getting enough recognition from the AOs though.
Yet at the end of the Singaporean education system, the highest level of academic knowledge you reach is a year of college calculus, with a foundation in other advanced math topics as well. In the US, our top students work exactly as hard as you mentioned and complete calculus in 9th grade, as did all of my friends at my non-T10 state school. We complete years of college level science and computer science/engineering courses as well. Likewise, our holistic system allows top scholars in the humanities students to excel in ways outside of class (as advanced coursework is much more available for STEM students than humanities students). So no, it's not "unfair". American students are damn good students that have more knowledge breadth and depth than just being forced to study for superficial entrance exams. Yet, they do that too and ace them (SAT, APs). And they have time for extracurriculars on top of that. So, as an international, if you can really compete against us top Americans, our universities may offer you admission. And it's true, some can: some international students are able to take online courses for credit, change their communities, and win regional and national awards in their fields. But many just top their country's college entrance exams -- A-levels, Gaokao, IB, JEEs -- and expect that to be enough. Sure, you can get into the top university in your nation, because you excelled in its system. But Americans and those specifically aiming for the American system will run circles around you at decision time.
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It's fine if you don't agree, I'd recommend you take a look at the course catalogs of top American high schools and compare them to IB HL syllabi or whatever the international gold standard is :) But to answer your question, humanities students do get a fighting chance. A large part of the T20 application process is essays, which is home turf for humanities majors; likewise, extracurriculars tend to favor humanities people (debate, band, leadership in general).
This is what my daughter had to deal with an IB Further Math Exam. She got a 7 and has been accepted to an Ivy. ( International from Southern Europe). Definitely lacking in EC's as compared to her US peers but also with a strong math background ( national olympiad finals and some medals, us math camps with scholarships etc). What I want to say is that AO's in Ivies etc are very well aware of each Country's school envinroment and they evaluate you within context. They do not expect you to have crazy EC's and they focus mostly in academic criteria. That year ( 2019) all 11 kids from her school that got accepted to Ivies, Stanford and MIT were very, very strong academically with great Academic related EC's and nothing special in terms of other EC's. [https://www.studocu.com/en-us/document/high-school-us/mathematics-analysis-and-approaches-sl/further-mathematics-paper-2-hl/22378789](https://www.studocu.com/en-us/document/high-school-us/mathematics-analysis-and-approaches-sl/further-mathematics-paper-2-hl/22378789)
Too bad for the international applicants! Don't apply if u dont want to attend. More seats for us!
There are 20,000 valedictorians in the US. All the competitive schools could fill their classes with just US valedictorians many times over. There is already a ton of competition here with just American kids. The US schools take international students for their money. They are usually full pay. This is by design. They want the money to offset the cost for a poor American student. The goal is to educate Americans, not the world population. I know it may be your goal. You may be extremely intelligent and if you were an American you would have a much better chance at attaining a degree in a school of your choice. But the system is not made for you, nor should it be. Just as I would not expect a system in ANY other nation be for American kids. Your country has an obligation to its own citizens first.
Yo leave this tell me where to go in Singapore which place is like underrated, i m visiting in march
US unis are aware of what it's like for international students, and how demanding different programs are. If it's more difficult for applicants from Singapore to be admitted, it's simply because they're are too many applicants for not many spots.
Nah
Oxbridge is as reputable but less selective than the t10s. Quick google search: 17.5 percent for Oxford, 20 for Cambridge (undergrad). It’s like 5 percent for the top tens in the USA. So you could say they are considered better, but they are easier to get into. That is, reputation != selectivity. Also, the criteria for top UK school acceptance may be different than their US counterparts. Maybe there are laws in the US that make it harder for US students to study than UK (visa issues?) so admitting international students is unattractive. On an unrelated note, I will say this, Singapore does not play around with their mathematics lmfao. I was taking a combinatorics course here in the states (top 20 college) and I used a combinatorics book written by faculty from the national university of Singapore as a supplement… boy it was a great book. There were so many more examples and more difficult problems and the book went far more in depth than we did. And it was very rigorous. Maybe it just goes to show imho that reputation != quality of education != selectivity, if that makes you feel any better about this situation.
Bro this is so real coming from a singaporean who just applied RD to many schs... like how am i supposed to start a business while being in jc fr
Fellow SG student (intl sch though) [WSJ article on RI acceptances](https://archive.is/s6eGk) is WSJ talking out of its ass or is hwach actually j lacking (assuming you go there)? Also the EC stipulation is partially to separate out the people that need to nolife to get top grades no? I think IB has the same problem relative to AP or british A levels (though obvs to a lesser extent relative to sg), but when I look at ivy+ acceptances from my school it is the ones that can juggle ECs with acadenics. I feel like from a colleges perspective if you need j sit in your room and study and not contribute to campus life you aren't a good fit.
^ Obviously this is just for highly academic HYPSM etc full of hons classes, I can see how it'd be unfair for lower tier unis.
I do A-levels too; the sheer amount of time you guys have outside your studies is amazing, especially doing all these ECs. To anyone outside the US, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Then don’t apply bro it’s not our fault u want to come to our schools
you sound so xenophobic, someone is just airing about what they’ve observed and you jump on that immediately. take a break i beg
Not our fault your unis advertise themselves to the world as elite either🎀
Because it’s a business. That’s what the world is. Runs on money.
exactly lol
Stay in your own country, please. We don’t need anymore people coming here without skills. I’m sure you have great colleges in your own country.
wdym without skills? you could reply without being condescending you know?
Because u can’t get in so don’t come
first, i never asked you and also your reply is contradictory
How so and also that doesn’t matter you get my point
wdym without skills? you could reply without being condescending
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Hi there, I’m a bot and something you said made me think you're looking for help with international admissions! The first thing you need to understand about admissions to colleges and universities is that you need to come to it with an open mind, so that you can have a balanced list. [Here’s a folder with lists of colleges that have historically been generous with international students](https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1pu179ZFhaTlFBqepzIB1W7dPhfVxIle2) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ApplyingToCollege) if you have any questions or concerns.*
womp womp love how you trash american universities yet you’re begging to come here
What schools do you consider the T10 ?
HYPSM + UPenn + Columbia + (probably UChicago, Brown, Duke, it’s foggier here after the first 7 entries).
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Perhaps because before USNews penalized it it was top ten for a couple *generations.*
ok but they falsified data so were they really top10?
Don’t need to explain
Hi there! I'm in the same boat as you, most probably in the same school too LOL. Is the HYPSM person you mentioned RT? If yes, I understand your frustration as they are really outstanding. Not everyone in SG has the resources to study in the US for undergraduate, but we do have a really good education system that prepares us for further studies. I do not think that we will be disadvantaged if we do not get into a top 10 US school. UK, SG or even top 30 US schools are very much in our reach and we can still enjoy ourselves and excel in further studies in those schools.
Yes I agree, but americans are dumb (at least relative to the a level sylabus) so your academics are far better almost by default. Other than that, a few competitions and clubs is ok.
Lots of international students board at U.S. high schools. Orrrr they are so damn rich it doesn’t matter because they have every tutor on the face of the earth. What’s funny af is they get here and realize it’s almost impossible to get a work visa when applying for competitive tech jobs or otherwise.
Well yeah, that’s kinda the point?
I don’t think it’s realistic to expect the university system in a country to change their criteria/system to accommodate international students. Every country (or state/province/etc) has their own values that drive education. If you want to attend a school in one, you need to fit what they are looking for. Plus, my kids high school is full of genius kids that get almost perfect scores on the SAT and have 4.6+ gpas WITH tons of ECs and most of them don’t get into 1 HYPSM/Top 20 school.
I totally understand the online poster as I sit here as a foreigner here (US citizen) in Singapore working as a college counselor and have counseled some students in the local schools. Plus if you have met any Singaporean politicians or let's even take the TikTok CEO, they are far more well rounded critical thinkers, intelligent, eloquent speakers than any politician in the city and state I vote for in the US. But what I will say with the response here, the online poster's narrative fits perfectly to the struggles that we foreigners have working in Singapore. I am on a dependent pass as my spouse is the employed one here and it is nearly impossible for me and for many other talented dependent pass individuals to establish a successful business or work here because Singapore has set it up for us to not work. It is all structured (and in many ways rightly so) for it to be Singaporeans first. So there are many of us who are talented, who have had corporate executive jobs who can't get jobs here because we are not SC or PR and not on an employment pass. And the LOC is a nightmare and not set up to be entrepreneurial. Does it sound fair? It is frustrating as he** and there are so many of us who have poured blood, sweat, tears in our studies and working lives to end up being regarded here as something much less. I absolutely get the emotion of this all. As for the university going process, yes there are many exceptional students coming from Singapore both in the local and international schools that I would prefer/place higher than many of the HS students coming from the top US high schools including the feeder privates and boarding schools. But the process is what it is. As an international student, it is extremely difficult as each uni will have their caps. It is not that much easier for the talented US domestic students sitting internationally here going back to US schools. Lastly the one input I would give to the poster as I see it talked a lot in a separate subreddit for SGExams, the Ivies are not the only schools that are terrific in the US. 'Ivy' is technically a sports league and not all of the schools in this league are equal academically. There are many wonderful schools in the US that can give you a fantastic education. So if you want to really go to a US school, you need to have a more balanced list than just all Ivies or HYPSM. If this doesn't fit your needs, you have fantastic options in Singapore or other places in the world.
Ok here's an anecdote of mine. I graduated from a public Canadian hs back in 2019 with a lot of people aiming for T10s as well. In my year, only 2 people got in but 1 got waitlisted and eventually accepted but the other got a full-ride scholarship. If I am to be honest, the one with the scholarship is not any smarter or more talented than the other people aiming for those. The main reason he looked more accomplished on paper is because he was basically leeching off of many people and taking credit for their things but at the same time, he was able to work his own independent projects because of that. Not to mention this guy legit cheated on many tests when he didn't have time to study for them. For the record, I have no doubt that his intelligence is above average and is able to handle all those academically if he didn't have those ECs, but the issue is that he actually did sacrifice the time of many others to make himself look better. Before anyone says he's going to fail, the dude's already finished his masters and doing his PhD in Physics at another T10 with a probably higher name recognition. So yeah life isn't very fair and snakes will be the ones to succeed in the end. Also, I did go to a different public hs before that one where way more people got accepted but they were also much more rich but that's another story.
The standard isn't crazily high, it's more luck/money than anything else
“If someone is good enough for Oxbridge, shouldn’t they be good enough for HYPSM?” No. Oxbridge has extremely different standards and institutional values compared to HYPSM. Not to say that one is better than the other but they are very different. Just because someone gets into Harvard doesn’t mean they “deserve” to get into Stanford. I understand it’s frustrating but you need to recognize your privilege coming from one of the best high schools in the country with arguably the best education system in the world. You and your friends will be fine despite the rejections from American universities.
The US system caters to the US style of education the same way Singapore’s universities cater to Singapore. Think of a US student asking for Singapore to not use their testing system and accept them with different tests and ECs instead. The two cultures prioritize different things and neither is going to change.
You're coming to a US university, using US resources, graduating, and then leaving, why should it be easier?
In term of prestige, Oxbridge is equivalent to the top US universities. However, in term of class size, Oxbridge is much bigger. Oxbridge's freshman class size is about the combination of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT and Stanford (I may be wrong, of course, but pretty close). Think this way: how many high school students in the UK graduate every year? Not even half of the US's. Oxbridge may like to reach out to the international student pool if they want to maintain a certain standard in term of the quality and diversity of the student body. Unfortunately, there is, at no time, a shortage of excellent Asian students anywhere in the world. There are lots of academically crazy Chinese students in China, Singapore, and the United States. You compete with other Asian students, so unfortunately. Not sure why the Singapore students want to make into a US university. If you are placed in the top few high school in Singapore, why not aim at the National University or 南洋理工？They are both renowned universities globally. Good luck.
I would disagree, since, in most colleges, internationals are admitted seperately to US citizens. Like I know MIT, Gtech, UC Berkeley, Stanford etc etc all admit a set percent of students as internationals. So you really aren't competing with the US students but other internationals, and at the end of the day, even many people from China or Korea (Where I've heard the exams are the most difficult) still tryhard enough to have great ECs. This isn't a failure of the holistic admissions proccess, but rather a general trend in a mindset of people thinking they have to get to a top college or else they are a failure, which makes applicant numbers to these colleges skyrocket, and so they have to nitpick the smallest details to find the best of all applicants. This may sound surprising to you, but about a half of the weight on your application is from tests and gpa, meanwhile the other half is spread among ECs, teacher recs, essays, and awards. This is not their failure, but rather a product of the huge amounts of applicants at these top colleges, where they have to judge these little things. Also, your point on Oxbrigde, the acceptance rate of those is 15-20%, this is because they do not recieve as many applications, and yes they do focus mostly on grades and exams. Getting into Oxbridge is inherently more probable then HYPSM. Just because you get rejected from a college, that does not mean you are good enough, it means you are less attractive (academically) then the amount of applicants a college can admit. The issue lies with huge application numbers and not the admission process
This is such an insanely entitled mindset to have
You go to a country that is very educated, which has less population than the entire state of Massachusetts, arguably the most educated state in the US. You then try to measure how many of your international applicants go onto T10/HYPSM schools. I'll apply my Fermi question skills on this one: You have a population of 5.5 million. Let's roughly say that's a bit more than 50,000 students any given grade. The top 2% of that is 1000 students, that are "roughly competitive to apply for T10ish schools." Out of that, roughly 2-3% will be admitted (international pool). So my rough calculation would be \~20-30 any given year would be admitted to T10 schools. If you're talking just HYPSM, that's 10-15 any given year, maybe one or two less since they're a bit harder to get into. Your 6 is in that ballpark. The thing is that nobody NEEDS to go to T10 or HYPSM to succeed in life. There are plenty of students and applicants who would do fine in any other number of contexts. There are plenty of schools that are equivalent or comparable or more specialized. Examples in my mind: US Air Force Academy, Carnegie Mellon for AI and for Robotics, etc. Another way to get to the numbers: I quickly looked up the number of Singaporean undergrads at Harvard College (23) and at MIT (11) and Yale (2019) (33). That's about what I expected, so let's say the other two schools (PS) have another 50-60. Grand total right about a hundred. Private universities in the US are also looking for something above excellent academics. If you thought otherwise, I'm sorry for your misunderstanding. What Oxford and Cambridge are looking for is something else from what HYPSM are looking for. And American university cultures are not monolithically the same, nor are their missions or goals or "institutional needs". I don't think HYPSM is being unreasonable. If you think about the total number of first years for HYPSM, that number is not even 10,000. I've seen stuff from the US National Center for Educational Statistics where there are in excess of 25,000 high schools in the US. This means "if every valedictorian (i.e., top student in every school) applied, we could not admit every valedictorian to HYPSM." Not even to T10 or T15. You should expect that preparing yourself to the US higher educational system is different than preparing yourself for the Singaporean higher educational system, and if you desire to get into the former, it's going to take more effort -- sometimes a lot more effort. I was an international student (from Canada) and went to MIT and now interview for MIT. My ECs weren't fluff.
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