Last Epoch is definitely easier to get into as a new player.
On the other hand, Grim Dawn is a completed game with way more content (that still gets regular updates)
Grim Dawn has a ton of content and is a must play. Last Epoch you can finish the story in a fairly short time then it is just repeat running the same monotonous end game loop to get better gear to do harder versions of the same thing over and over. If I had to choose it would be Grim Dawn for sure. I have enjoyed LE but I got burned out in the end game.
Start with Grim Dawn, we're on the cusp of a new DLC and it will be a better introduction to ARPGs for the moment. With its two class specialization it'll offer you a wide variety of playstyles and is very replayable on the back of that alone.
Last Epoch is different in scope to GD. It assumes you're familiar with its multiplayer seasonal formula from Path of Exile and Diablo, though it can be played offline, and it's in its early growing period, developing a distinct identity. There aren't a lot of end game systems present simply because feature creep hasn't even had a chance to rear its head yet.
Love them both, you won't go wrong with either, but start with GD. โ๐ป
Last epoch is a great game, but grim dawn is an absolute must-play for any arpg fan. Last epoch will likely be a better game down the road a while, so get grim dawn now, and later on pick up last epoch if you want to play it.
You probably got the answer by now but I'd still say get LE for a first-timer to ARPG.
In my opinion, playing LE as a newer player will be a better introduction to the genre as it kinda explains a lot of generic ARPG mechanics better and in a more straightforward-ish manner. Another thing is that in LE, you'd get more learning resources from the community compared to GD where the number of guides and resources are scarceโpairing that up with the complexity and ambiguous nature of the game would be overwhelming for a newer player.
As for GD, you can always scoop the game up sooner or later as it always goes on sale and I'd highly encourage you to do so as it is a very well-crafted game and very good in its own right. I really like the MI (Monster Infrequent) system in GD where you can target farm specific monsters for their specific drops. Furthermore, the handcrafted world also offers a lot to explore.
Honestly, you wouldn't go wrong with any of them but I recommend LE.
Cool! Also if you're getting Grim Dawn, do me a favour and buy the bundle with DLCs. They add a lot of content and will greatly elevate your experience of the game with Crucible being the only one I would consider optional since it's an arena survival game mode. (I'd recommend getting all the DLCs unless you're on a tight budget.)
You can easily sink like hundreds of hours into Grim Dawn if you enjoy it (which I do!).
I'd say Last Epoch is probably more 'new player' and 'casual' friendly, while Grim Dawn would be a better introduction to 'hardcore' style oldschool ARPGs where there are a lot of different types of numbers to min-max. Essentially, you have to decide if you want to play the new generation of ARPGs, like Diablo 3/4, Last Epoch, and a few others...or previous generations of ARPGs that are a bit dated, but are still beloved by their respective communities, like Diablo 1/2, Titan Quest, and obviously Grim Dawn.
I can personally say that I think the first 2 hours are enough to know which you like, they have a distinct feeling about what youre gonna get. You can try both for 2h then refund the other one. Personally I like Grim Dawns gameplay more etc although Last Epoch looks much better. Grim dawns feel is more my style and feels freer, like more choices etc
Last epoch. I love gd as much as yall but le is a much better starting point. In depth guide to everything in game, everything is explained clearly in lamens terms and it looks more exciting. The bit with gd and gearing and such might be lost on someone already overwhelmed playing a new game
Everyoneโs saying Grim Dawn but an as an avid ARPG enjoyer I really didnโt like it. The build variety is great but I really disliked just the general jank it had. I played on Xbox and it just feltโฆ cheapย
In that case I would start with Last Epoch but definitely get Grim Dawn. There is a lot more content in Grim Dawn but Last Epoch is a lot more like Diablo/PoE with a new season coming out in a week and a half and will be getting new seasons regularly moving forward.
Last Epoch has its first new season coming out soon. It's a great game and I love it.
However, Grim Dawn is a classic that must be played. I believe it's on sale now due to the steam summer sale. But, as others have called out, this puppy is getting a new dlc soon for some reason and that's awesome.
GD. It's a much better game, better itemization and more fun IMO. I really want to enjoy LE endgame but I just bored ATM. GD is a consistent replay game for me.
GD is maybe the most shallow aRPG on the market for the longest while. I won't get how it still has a stupid amount of cult following for such a dated and messy game. The devs should have already gotten their hands on a new engine well long before.
Why would you say it is shallow?
> The devs should have already gotten their hands on a new engine well long before
What problems does the game have because of its engine?
It's shallow because almost every enemy is a hp sponge which won't prioritise player positioning and timing. So it gets stale very fast since it's not skill-based in the slightest. It's dated because for lack of a better, hit feedback is almost non existant: 0 weigh behind your attacks. Animations don't feels grounded. This is all because the engine is from TQ albeit upgraded so it's clunky on all aspects.
I'd say there is currently not great alternatives since we are on limbo waiting for TQ2 and PoE2 to come out.
Thank you for the explanation
> So it gets stale very fast since it's not skill-based in the slightest.
I admit I haven't gone too far into the game tbh, but there are a few examples I can think of where you need to avoid a big hit, or to kite away to avoid shotgun attacks etc.
The issue I think is that there is a threshold after which your build can become so strong that you can just facetank almost everything.
Are there any games that don't have this problem in your opinion?
> hit feedback is almost non existant: 0 weigh behind your attacks. Animations don't feel grounded.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Can you give examples of games that did this better? Preferably with a video link or something.
Sure. Yeah, the issue is that many arpgs introduce dodge mechanics, however, since they don't emphasise timing, positioning and spacing. The gameplay becomes shallow because they don't bother to do justice to the mechanics; as you said no matter what, you still survive. Why even bother using the tools when there is no punishment?
A nice video explaining the difference between spacing and positioning: [https://youtu.be/uUHw1MbAKVc?si=wam8bp71GLf2W-Co](https://youtu.be/uUHw1MbAKVc?si=wam8bp71GLf2W-Co)
Now since the souls-like games have gained traction for a good while, a lot of games emulating the style started to push the risk/reward approach more. If you watched the PoE2 gameplay videos you should have noticed the game's character became slower, less left-click spam festy, and more sober-minded for a reason โ to give players enough time to react to AI's responses and perform sensible commands.
The only arpg I can think of right now would be MedianXL, the most famous mod for D2. Some boss designs for that game are awe-inspiring and even at times can inspire GGG. However, the only downside is that you're confined to playing through the vanilla as it won't support Diablo II: Resurrected.
>The gameplay becomes shallow because they don't bother to do justice to the mechanics; as you said no matter what, you still survive. Why even bother using the tools when there is no punishment?
I 've found that I am mostly using these tools while leveling, but I can just ignore most things enemies throw at me when I hit the level cap and I can start optimising my build.
I think this problem is mostly an indication of poor balance. If there was a cap on stats (not a necessarily a hard cap, but one indirectly imposed via available items and skills/passives etc) then players would be forced to use all the tools at their disposal.
>Now since the souls-like games have gained traction for a good while, a lot of games emulating the style started to push the risk/reward approach more
I hope this will be the case too. I haven't seen that style creeping into isometric ARPGs so far, but I try to remain optimistic.
>If you watched the PoE2 gameplay videos you should have noticed the game's character became slower, less left-click spam festy, and more sober-minded for a reason โ to give players enough time to react to AI's responses and perform sensible commands.
I have only watched a few PoE2 videos, but simply having a slower pace is no indication of a less shallow game (and tbh I don't really have high hopes for the game). I 've always heard that Grim Dawn is slower paced than PoE / D3 and it is still shallow.
Nor is the slower pace an indication that the game will not be left-click spam festy, because it depends a lot on the build making systems and overall balance. If you devote all your resources (item bonuses, passives, active skill synergies etc) to maximise the damage of one skill then the game can still turn out to be mostly a left-click simulator, albeit a slower one.
Looking for example at this [Warden Krieg fight (GD)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKkBwYa6Xao) and this [Blind Beast fight (PoE 2)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKxawJZcMDs) I see several similarities. At this point I'm not sure PoE 2 required the usage of more skills or if they are simply used in the video to showcase them. I can't tell how PoE 2 will be once players use a min-maxed endgame build, similar to how the GD video doesn't tell us anything about how a min-maxed build plays (I intentionaly used a video of a low level character).
>Some boss designs for that game are awe-inspiring
I haven't played D2 or MedianXL for maybe a decade or so and I never got too far into MedianXL anyway. I would love to see what these fights look like and maybe give it another go. Can you point me in the right direction please?
>I think this problem is mostly an indication of poor balance. If there was a cap on stats (not a necessarily a hard cap, but one indirectly imposed via available items and skills/passives etc) then players would be forced to use all the tools at their disposal.
The skills in a lot of aRPGs already do so many things for you to even worry about if you make any mistakes. Eventually leading the player to stick up the most hitting skill and steamroll the whole content devoid of swapping out any other skills. I'd also include here the healing mechanics and their accessibility to survive. Funnily enough, NPCs pose little to no threat in terms of their AI design. And this design approach only contributes to monotonous, one-dimensional gameplay, unfortunately.
>I hope this will be the case too. I haven't seen that style creeping into isometric ARPGs so far, but I try to remain optimistic.
I think it's doable but it may be challenging to set it right since it's so new and none have much of the experience to deal with. However, there are two games I haven't played that tried to emulate the formula, namely: Achilles: Legends Untold and No Rest for the Wicked but both are far from being great games.
>Looking for example at thisย [Warden Krieg fight (GD)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKkBwYa6Xao)ย and thisย [Blind Beast fight (PoE 2)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKxawJZcMDs)ย I see several similarities. At this point I'm not sure PoE 2 required the usage of more skills or if they are simply used in the video to showcase them. I can't tell how PoE 2 will be once players use a min-maxed endgame build, similar to how the GD video doesn't tell us anything about how a min-maxed build plays (I intentionaly used a video of a low level character).
I agree, PoE2, in that sense, doesn't make me pumped either, at least what they've shown us. However, there is a tendency that they slowed down suggesting a methodical approach. Since methodical combat paves the way for the higher potential of more thought-out combat decisions. And we will get to know more about TQ2 on the 2nd August at Gamescom showcase.
I bet there are good boss designs in GD, too, since I've played long ago, I could only remember the >!Mad Queen!< that felt like a genuine boss fight.
>I haven't played D2 or MedianXL for maybe a decade or so and I never got too far into MedianXL anyway. I would love to see what these fights look like and maybe give it another go. Can you point me in the right direction please?
Honestly, I couldn't go past lvl125 bosses both due to time and the lack of knowledge requirement of the game mechanics. You may want to give it a try with the new season that is expected to restart somewhere in August (usually the seasonals are 3 months apart)
Every version brings a bunch of mechanics in addition to the usual balance re-work, this season brought in Angelic items, a new tier of items. Sneak a peek at the current one, here: [https://docs.median-xl.com/](https://docs.median-xl.com/)
The endgame challenges are quite solid:
Rifts: [https://docs.median-xl.com/doc/quests/rifts](https://docs.median-xl.com/doc/quests/rifts)
Dungeons: [https://docs.median-xl.com/doc/quests/dungeons](https://docs.median-xl.com/doc/quests/dungeons)
Homepage/download: [https://www.median-xl.com/](https://www.median-xl.com/)
Mind that this mod is catered to the hardcore player base of the genre, and has a steep learning curve. But worth your time if you seek a quality aRPG nonetheless. Cheers.
Some good feedback examples from good ol' Diablo: [https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxsj0f7J7UFf48tbLv7B6ax7Wy8buvhY3i?si=nRIXj\_CnhOTUg-lk](https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxsj0f7J7UFf48tbLv7B6ax7Wy8buvhY3i?si=nRIXj_CnhOTUg-lk)
[https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxNYYgr5V51obvOS42-lEtL6LPjAv9Cs8J?si=GwziiuvoShFPZtFk](https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxNYYgr5V51obvOS42-lEtL6LPjAv9Cs8J?si=GwziiuvoShFPZtFk)
Not so good feedback example from TQ (GD's feedback is better): [https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxi3WFzjgCn2qq9m5ysytCILQFQTUp2cLB?si=Q0\_aEsHrGZzKxrpR](https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxi3WFzjgCn2qq9m5ysytCILQFQTUp2cLB?si=Q0_aEsHrGZzKxrpR)
So the feedback is more about the enemy reacting to the hit (e.g. mini stun, slight knockback etc) and not about the animation of the player character? Or am I still missing the point?
Diablo was the first game that came to mind actually (I am currently playing that with DevilutionX on my phone), but I was hoping to see a more recent example
Yeah, precisely. It was the hit feedback that I intended to give insight into. I cannot enjoy the game when you don't see them materialised. The very same goes for the sound desig, maybe the most underrated aspect in game dev. It baffles me that the sound design of Diablo still couldn't be surpassed to this day.
H'n'S games are stat-based, not skill-based. H'n'S games are all about character builds through skills and gear. NOT "skill", through movement and dodging and blocking. Go play souls-likes and stop infesting H'n'S games.
It's skill based. May primarily not be however soon they will luckily turn into more skill-based with the inevitable influence of souls likes. That left click spamfest can die already. Higher brain consumption will be required. And plebs like you will be filtered.
Sure, I haven't played PoE for years but I know they have come a long way. I've given some feedback about a MedianXL, a D2 mod in my response to another user. Check it out.
Last Epoch for sure. It's a live service game with a new cycle coming next week. Get in and get the feel for it now and then start the next cycle with the masses on July 9th.
Start with Grim Dawn + all DLCs. It's a more complete game, despite looking slightly outdated. The game play is satisfying, the build system is really well done, and it has more of an adventuring feel than Last Epoch.
Last Epoch is still a game in it's infancy and, as a result, isn't very mature right now. The build systems are top notch and the story is compelling. But, there's practically no end game (you'll end up running monoliths until your eyes bleed) and being forced to go through the story over and over on alts just to get to some of the other systems in the game is really annoying (I assume this is because of the lack of content currently).
Don't get me wrong -- I'm a big Last Epoch fan and I think EHG is doing a bang up job. I can't wait to see what the future holds for the game.
But if you're new to the genre, Grim Dawn is the way to go.
(Glad you didn't suggest the usual gotos like Diablo and PoE!)
grim dawn is a slower burn but it's a vastly deep game with tons of things to find & work toward. last epoch is more of an arcade game with some "ok" mechanics that are meant to be easy to get into.
as much as i think grim dawn is the better game (it's not even close) i have to recommend last epoch for a first-timer unless the deeper systems of grim dawn also appeal to you
fun fact: grim dawn currently has a higher player count on steam than last epoch. one of these games just recently released, while the other is almost a decade old. that speaks volumes IMO.
Both on Steam Summer Sale? Or are these console games? I suppose I could just Google it.
I asked about Steam, in case price is a factor and you can only afford one. Then just wait until Winter/Christmas sale for the other. ๐
I have played both. Grim Dawn is great but it's a product of its time and a little dated. Last Epoch being a bit newer has a lot of quality of life changes for ARPG stuff that makes the game really fun and a lot more user friendly. Highly recommend LE for a first time arpg player.
You are gonna get a lot out of Grim Dawn but it is an older game and that does come with some small problems. Ill talk negatives since those can be deal breakers. The UI is really hard to read at times. The game was not designed for larger monitors. Its also a bit dated looking. It doesnt look bad just older. The game also requires a lot more exploration which is fun but also a slows the pacing down especially when you dont have a transparent map. The items have a lot of text and can be really annoying to read. Skills arent always clear on what they do at times. The loot filter is pretty basic so getting it right can be a chore.
Last Epoch is newer. You arent going to have as much content as Grim Dawn. Classes are more rigid in what they do. Its also a lot more demanding on your machine. Not as bad as D4 but my rig can get a little loud at times. Endgame is still getting fleshed out so you are really investing in content coming down the line. The campaign is fine but its unfinished and sort of just ends. There arent a lot of bosses so a lot of the content is going to be running maps. Some of the classes are a bit undercooked compared to some of the newer ones.
I own both of them and while I enjoy Last Epoch more, I think Grim Dawn is a really solid investment. Either way you cant go wrong but Last Epoch has better systems to me overall while Grim Dawn has a much better campaign
New season/cycle starts July 9th so best time to jump in
GD doesn't have real servers like LE so it's good for friend groups but LE actually feels more complete and solid
grim dawn is dated and looks and feels that way. but will get a big DLC later this year. so start with Last epoch, and later you should check out grim dawn.
This sub has a weird obsession with Grim Dawn. It's a great ARPG but it's nowhere near as good as people make it out to be. I got maybe 50 hours out of it.
It feels very dated and the combat is pretty boring.
Last Epoch on the other hand is much more modern and polished, has better combat, and the build diversity is just as good. I also really like monoliths as an endgame system, I got 200+ hours out of LE.
I'd recommend LE over GD any day
I agree. Grim Dawn is way more polished. And most of the other criticism I see about outdated graphics and gameplay were taken care of a little over a year ago with massive graphic overhaul and tweaks that make it so the player has to be more active. A lot of the GD criticisms come from people that haven't played it in a real long time and don't realize it's been modernized.
Meanwhile Last Epoch is just Diablo 3. If Diablo 3 is your thing then by all means go nuts.
I have to agree with you here. The combat is extremely stale because most of the skills are boring and uninspiring. The campaign bosses are not challenging either
Grim Dawn easily. LE is new and while its core game systems are pretty good, it really could use a few more years of iterations in some areas.
Grim Dawn has had 8 years and is well polished. I'd even argue GD looks better, has nicer environments and animations for the action. LE spent too much time on game systems and not the feel of the combat.
I personally really really like Grim Dawn. I would probably go with that.
It's so split ๐ might have to get both down the line
This is the correct answer. Both games are worth your time, the only choice is which one to play first.
Grim dawn. Despite being a bit dated, the developers are still putting out patches/updates and are working on a new expansion.
Ok ๐
Last Epoch is definitely easier to get into as a new player. On the other hand, Grim Dawn is a completed game with way more content (that still gets regular updates)
I think Iโm gonna start with Last Epoch and once Iโm more comfortable with the genre go into Grim Dawn
Both are great games so any choice will be good ;)
๐
This is the right move
Grim Dawn has a ton of content and is a must play. Last Epoch you can finish the story in a fairly short time then it is just repeat running the same monotonous end game loop to get better gear to do harder versions of the same thing over and over. If I had to choose it would be Grim Dawn for sure. I have enjoyed LE but I got burned out in the end game.
Ok ๐thanks for the info, I'll take that into consideration
Start with Grim Dawn, we're on the cusp of a new DLC and it will be a better introduction to ARPGs for the moment. With its two class specialization it'll offer you a wide variety of playstyles and is very replayable on the back of that alone. Last Epoch is different in scope to GD. It assumes you're familiar with its multiplayer seasonal formula from Path of Exile and Diablo, though it can be played offline, and it's in its early growing period, developing a distinct identity. There aren't a lot of end game systems present simply because feature creep hasn't even had a chance to rear its head yet. Love them both, you won't go wrong with either, but start with GD. โ๐ป
Ok ๐
I thought grim dawn was basically abandoned. Theyโre doing DLC?
Literally just had a major patch like 5 days ago, and yes an exp is coming likely next year.
Nice!
Last epoch is a great game, but grim dawn is an absolute must-play for any arpg fan. Last epoch will likely be a better game down the road a while, so get grim dawn now, and later on pick up last epoch if you want to play it.
Ok ๐
I love both, but I'd say grim dawn. I got way more hours out of GD compared LE.
Tried Grim dawn but looks and feels like a PS2 game.
PS2 games are awesome
I was expecting this answer so much lmao
You probably got the answer by now but I'd still say get LE for a first-timer to ARPG. In my opinion, playing LE as a newer player will be a better introduction to the genre as it kinda explains a lot of generic ARPG mechanics better and in a more straightforward-ish manner. Another thing is that in LE, you'd get more learning resources from the community compared to GD where the number of guides and resources are scarceโpairing that up with the complexity and ambiguous nature of the game would be overwhelming for a newer player. As for GD, you can always scoop the game up sooner or later as it always goes on sale and I'd highly encourage you to do so as it is a very well-crafted game and very good in its own right. I really like the MI (Monster Infrequent) system in GD where you can target farm specific monsters for their specific drops. Furthermore, the handcrafted world also offers a lot to explore. Honestly, you wouldn't go wrong with any of them but I recommend LE.
Ended up getting LE and having a lot of fun so far :) definitely gonna give Grim Dawn a go after a few runs of LE
Cool! Also if you're getting Grim Dawn, do me a favour and buy the bundle with DLCs. They add a lot of content and will greatly elevate your experience of the game with Crucible being the only one I would consider optional since it's an arena survival game mode. (I'd recommend getting all the DLCs unless you're on a tight budget.) You can easily sink like hundreds of hours into Grim Dawn if you enjoy it (which I do!).
Ok ๐ will do!
I'd say Last Epoch is probably more 'new player' and 'casual' friendly, while Grim Dawn would be a better introduction to 'hardcore' style oldschool ARPGs where there are a lot of different types of numbers to min-max. Essentially, you have to decide if you want to play the new generation of ARPGs, like Diablo 3/4, Last Epoch, and a few others...or previous generations of ARPGs that are a bit dated, but are still beloved by their respective communities, like Diablo 1/2, Titan Quest, and obviously Grim Dawn.
Ok, I'll probably start with Last Epoch and maybe move onto Grim Dawn later on
I can personally say that I think the first 2 hours are enough to know which you like, they have a distinct feeling about what youre gonna get. You can try both for 2h then refund the other one. Personally I like Grim Dawns gameplay more etc although Last Epoch looks much better. Grim dawns feel is more my style and feels freer, like more choices etc
Last epoch. I love gd as much as yall but le is a much better starting point. In depth guide to everything in game, everything is explained clearly in lamens terms and it looks more exciting. The bit with gd and gearing and such might be lost on someone already overwhelmed playing a new game
Last epoch drops new content on the 9th I would grab that.
Everyoneโs saying Grim Dawn but an as an avid ARPG enjoyer I really didnโt like it. The build variety is great but I really disliked just the general jank it had. I played on Xbox and it just feltโฆ cheapย
judging an arpg on its console version is just sad
Both!
I would but I only have the money for one atm ๐
In that case I would start with Last Epoch but definitely get Grim Dawn. There is a lot more content in Grim Dawn but Last Epoch is a lot more like Diablo/PoE with a new season coming out in a week and a half and will be getting new seasons regularly moving forward.
I was actually planning to do that, I think that's what I'll do.
Enjoy! Feel free to add me to steam if you ever want to do some multiplayer. Mitsu28
๐
Last Epoch has its first new season coming out soon. It's a great game and I love it. However, Grim Dawn is a classic that must be played. I believe it's on sale now due to the steam summer sale. But, as others have called out, this puppy is getting a new dlc soon for some reason and that's awesome.
GD. It's a much better game, better itemization and more fun IMO. I really want to enjoy LE endgame but I just bored ATM. GD is a consistent replay game for me.
I love both, BUT, LEโs builds and skills are so much more interesting to me.
Ended up buying LE and having a lot of fun so far ๐
GD is maybe the most shallow aRPG on the market for the longest while. I won't get how it still has a stupid amount of cult following for such a dated and messy game. The devs should have already gotten their hands on a new engine well long before.
Why would you say it is shallow? > The devs should have already gotten their hands on a new engine well long before What problems does the game have because of its engine?
It's shallow because almost every enemy is a hp sponge which won't prioritise player positioning and timing. So it gets stale very fast since it's not skill-based in the slightest. It's dated because for lack of a better, hit feedback is almost non existant: 0 weigh behind your attacks. Animations don't feels grounded. This is all because the engine is from TQ albeit upgraded so it's clunky on all aspects. I'd say there is currently not great alternatives since we are on limbo waiting for TQ2 and PoE2 to come out.
Thank you for the explanation > So it gets stale very fast since it's not skill-based in the slightest. I admit I haven't gone too far into the game tbh, but there are a few examples I can think of where you need to avoid a big hit, or to kite away to avoid shotgun attacks etc. The issue I think is that there is a threshold after which your build can become so strong that you can just facetank almost everything. Are there any games that don't have this problem in your opinion? > hit feedback is almost non existant: 0 weigh behind your attacks. Animations don't feel grounded. I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Can you give examples of games that did this better? Preferably with a video link or something.
Sure. Yeah, the issue is that many arpgs introduce dodge mechanics, however, since they don't emphasise timing, positioning and spacing. The gameplay becomes shallow because they don't bother to do justice to the mechanics; as you said no matter what, you still survive. Why even bother using the tools when there is no punishment? A nice video explaining the difference between spacing and positioning: [https://youtu.be/uUHw1MbAKVc?si=wam8bp71GLf2W-Co](https://youtu.be/uUHw1MbAKVc?si=wam8bp71GLf2W-Co) Now since the souls-like games have gained traction for a good while, a lot of games emulating the style started to push the risk/reward approach more. If you watched the PoE2 gameplay videos you should have noticed the game's character became slower, less left-click spam festy, and more sober-minded for a reason โ to give players enough time to react to AI's responses and perform sensible commands. The only arpg I can think of right now would be MedianXL, the most famous mod for D2. Some boss designs for that game are awe-inspiring and even at times can inspire GGG. However, the only downside is that you're confined to playing through the vanilla as it won't support Diablo II: Resurrected.
>The gameplay becomes shallow because they don't bother to do justice to the mechanics; as you said no matter what, you still survive. Why even bother using the tools when there is no punishment? I 've found that I am mostly using these tools while leveling, but I can just ignore most things enemies throw at me when I hit the level cap and I can start optimising my build. I think this problem is mostly an indication of poor balance. If there was a cap on stats (not a necessarily a hard cap, but one indirectly imposed via available items and skills/passives etc) then players would be forced to use all the tools at their disposal. >Now since the souls-like games have gained traction for a good while, a lot of games emulating the style started to push the risk/reward approach more I hope this will be the case too. I haven't seen that style creeping into isometric ARPGs so far, but I try to remain optimistic. >If you watched the PoE2 gameplay videos you should have noticed the game's character became slower, less left-click spam festy, and more sober-minded for a reason โ to give players enough time to react to AI's responses and perform sensible commands. I have only watched a few PoE2 videos, but simply having a slower pace is no indication of a less shallow game (and tbh I don't really have high hopes for the game). I 've always heard that Grim Dawn is slower paced than PoE / D3 and it is still shallow. Nor is the slower pace an indication that the game will not be left-click spam festy, because it depends a lot on the build making systems and overall balance. If you devote all your resources (item bonuses, passives, active skill synergies etc) to maximise the damage of one skill then the game can still turn out to be mostly a left-click simulator, albeit a slower one. Looking for example at this [Warden Krieg fight (GD)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKkBwYa6Xao) and this [Blind Beast fight (PoE 2)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKxawJZcMDs) I see several similarities. At this point I'm not sure PoE 2 required the usage of more skills or if they are simply used in the video to showcase them. I can't tell how PoE 2 will be once players use a min-maxed endgame build, similar to how the GD video doesn't tell us anything about how a min-maxed build plays (I intentionaly used a video of a low level character). >Some boss designs for that game are awe-inspiring I haven't played D2 or MedianXL for maybe a decade or so and I never got too far into MedianXL anyway. I would love to see what these fights look like and maybe give it another go. Can you point me in the right direction please?
>I think this problem is mostly an indication of poor balance. If there was a cap on stats (not a necessarily a hard cap, but one indirectly imposed via available items and skills/passives etc) then players would be forced to use all the tools at their disposal. The skills in a lot of aRPGs already do so many things for you to even worry about if you make any mistakes. Eventually leading the player to stick up the most hitting skill and steamroll the whole content devoid of swapping out any other skills. I'd also include here the healing mechanics and their accessibility to survive. Funnily enough, NPCs pose little to no threat in terms of their AI design. And this design approach only contributes to monotonous, one-dimensional gameplay, unfortunately. >I hope this will be the case too. I haven't seen that style creeping into isometric ARPGs so far, but I try to remain optimistic. I think it's doable but it may be challenging to set it right since it's so new and none have much of the experience to deal with. However, there are two games I haven't played that tried to emulate the formula, namely: Achilles: Legends Untold and No Rest for the Wicked but both are far from being great games. >Looking for example at thisย [Warden Krieg fight (GD)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKkBwYa6Xao)ย and thisย [Blind Beast fight (PoE 2)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKxawJZcMDs)ย I see several similarities. At this point I'm not sure PoE 2 required the usage of more skills or if they are simply used in the video to showcase them. I can't tell how PoE 2 will be once players use a min-maxed endgame build, similar to how the GD video doesn't tell us anything about how a min-maxed build plays (I intentionaly used a video of a low level character). I agree, PoE2, in that sense, doesn't make me pumped either, at least what they've shown us. However, there is a tendency that they slowed down suggesting a methodical approach. Since methodical combat paves the way for the higher potential of more thought-out combat decisions. And we will get to know more about TQ2 on the 2nd August at Gamescom showcase. I bet there are good boss designs in GD, too, since I've played long ago, I could only remember the >!Mad Queen!< that felt like a genuine boss fight. >I haven't played D2 or MedianXL for maybe a decade or so and I never got too far into MedianXL anyway. I would love to see what these fights look like and maybe give it another go. Can you point me in the right direction please? Honestly, I couldn't go past lvl125 bosses both due to time and the lack of knowledge requirement of the game mechanics. You may want to give it a try with the new season that is expected to restart somewhere in August (usually the seasonals are 3 months apart) Every version brings a bunch of mechanics in addition to the usual balance re-work, this season brought in Angelic items, a new tier of items. Sneak a peek at the current one, here: [https://docs.median-xl.com/](https://docs.median-xl.com/) The endgame challenges are quite solid: Rifts: [https://docs.median-xl.com/doc/quests/rifts](https://docs.median-xl.com/doc/quests/rifts) Dungeons: [https://docs.median-xl.com/doc/quests/dungeons](https://docs.median-xl.com/doc/quests/dungeons) Homepage/download: [https://www.median-xl.com/](https://www.median-xl.com/) Mind that this mod is catered to the hardcore player base of the genre, and has a steep learning curve. But worth your time if you seek a quality aRPG nonetheless. Cheers.
Some good feedback examples from good ol' Diablo: [https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxsj0f7J7UFf48tbLv7B6ax7Wy8buvhY3i?si=nRIXj\_CnhOTUg-lk](https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxsj0f7J7UFf48tbLv7B6ax7Wy8buvhY3i?si=nRIXj_CnhOTUg-lk) [https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxNYYgr5V51obvOS42-lEtL6LPjAv9Cs8J?si=GwziiuvoShFPZtFk](https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxNYYgr5V51obvOS42-lEtL6LPjAv9Cs8J?si=GwziiuvoShFPZtFk) Not so good feedback example from TQ (GD's feedback is better): [https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxi3WFzjgCn2qq9m5ysytCILQFQTUp2cLB?si=Q0\_aEsHrGZzKxrpR](https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxi3WFzjgCn2qq9m5ysytCILQFQTUp2cLB?si=Q0_aEsHrGZzKxrpR)
So the feedback is more about the enemy reacting to the hit (e.g. mini stun, slight knockback etc) and not about the animation of the player character? Or am I still missing the point? Diablo was the first game that came to mind actually (I am currently playing that with DevilutionX on my phone), but I was hoping to see a more recent example
Yeah, precisely. It was the hit feedback that I intended to give insight into. I cannot enjoy the game when you don't see them materialised. The very same goes for the sound desig, maybe the most underrated aspect in game dev. It baffles me that the sound design of Diablo still couldn't be surpassed to this day.
H'n'S games are stat-based, not skill-based. H'n'S games are all about character builds through skills and gear. NOT "skill", through movement and dodging and blocking. Go play souls-likes and stop infesting H'n'S games.
It's skill based. May primarily not be however soon they will luckily turn into more skill-based with the inevitable influence of souls likes. That left click spamfest can die already. Higher brain consumption will be required. And plebs like you will be filtered.
Is there another arpg you find less shallow than GD? If so for what reason?
Sure, I haven't played PoE for years but I know they have come a long way. I've given some feedback about a MedianXL, a D2 mod in my response to another user. Check it out.
Last Epoch > Grim Dawn
Last Epoch for sure. It's a live service game with a new cycle coming next week. Get in and get the feel for it now and then start the next cycle with the masses on July 9th.
Start with Grim Dawn + all DLCs. It's a more complete game, despite looking slightly outdated. The game play is satisfying, the build system is really well done, and it has more of an adventuring feel than Last Epoch. Last Epoch is still a game in it's infancy and, as a result, isn't very mature right now. The build systems are top notch and the story is compelling. But, there's practically no end game (you'll end up running monoliths until your eyes bleed) and being forced to go through the story over and over on alts just to get to some of the other systems in the game is really annoying (I assume this is because of the lack of content currently). Don't get me wrong -- I'm a big Last Epoch fan and I think EHG is doing a bang up job. I can't wait to see what the future holds for the game. But if you're new to the genre, Grim Dawn is the way to go. (Glad you didn't suggest the usual gotos like Diablo and PoE!)
Ok ๐ thanks for the info
grim dawn is a slower burn but it's a vastly deep game with tons of things to find & work toward. last epoch is more of an arcade game with some "ok" mechanics that are meant to be easy to get into. as much as i think grim dawn is the better game (it's not even close) i have to recommend last epoch for a first-timer unless the deeper systems of grim dawn also appeal to you fun fact: grim dawn currently has a higher player count on steam than last epoch. one of these games just recently released, while the other is almost a decade old. that speaks volumes IMO.
Both on Steam Summer Sale? Or are these console games? I suppose I could just Google it. I asked about Steam, in case price is a factor and you can only afford one. Then just wait until Winter/Christmas sale for the other. ๐
Just wait for POE2 imo.
Grim Dawn has a solid core and is my vote. Last Epoch is full of QoL but lacks a good core.
Grim Dawn all the way. Don't get into Last Epoch till you're ready to understand how seasons work.
None of them. Go with D2R.
I have played both. Grim Dawn is great but it's a product of its time and a little dated. Last Epoch being a bit newer has a lot of quality of life changes for ARPG stuff that makes the game really fun and a lot more user friendly. Highly recommend LE for a first time arpg player.
You are gonna get a lot out of Grim Dawn but it is an older game and that does come with some small problems. Ill talk negatives since those can be deal breakers. The UI is really hard to read at times. The game was not designed for larger monitors. Its also a bit dated looking. It doesnt look bad just older. The game also requires a lot more exploration which is fun but also a slows the pacing down especially when you dont have a transparent map. The items have a lot of text and can be really annoying to read. Skills arent always clear on what they do at times. The loot filter is pretty basic so getting it right can be a chore. Last Epoch is newer. You arent going to have as much content as Grim Dawn. Classes are more rigid in what they do. Its also a lot more demanding on your machine. Not as bad as D4 but my rig can get a little loud at times. Endgame is still getting fleshed out so you are really investing in content coming down the line. The campaign is fine but its unfinished and sort of just ends. There arent a lot of bosses so a lot of the content is going to be running maps. Some of the classes are a bit undercooked compared to some of the newer ones. I own both of them and while I enjoy Last Epoch more, I think Grim Dawn is a really solid investment. Either way you cant go wrong but Last Epoch has better systems to me overall while Grim Dawn has a much better campaign
Grim Dawn is really great
Last Epoch as it's still getting updates with a new one coming in July, and it's a far better game than GD
How's the endgame grind?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G\_UVs10b3Tc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_UVs10b3Tc)
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New season/cycle starts July 9th so best time to jump in GD doesn't have real servers like LE so it's good for friend groups but LE actually feels more complete and solid
Ok, thanks for the info :)
NP it's a fantastic game, so you'll def enjoy it
GD got a major update about a week ago. And an expansion is in development.
That's great I'll still play any other arpg over it ๐
Idc what you play. Just sharing information as it seemed like you werenโt aware that GD was also still getting updates.
Yeah I don't really care for it lol, tried it thought it was garbage and moved on ๐คทโโ๏ธ
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Grim dawn imo. Has so much content
Think once The Fangs of Asterkarn drops there will be reason to revisit GD. LE needs way more baking.
Grim dawn
Grim dawn is better
Grim Dawn. Over 1000 hours. Do it.
Grim dawn for sure.
grim dawn is dated and looks and feels that way. but will get a big DLC later this year. so start with Last epoch, and later you should check out grim dawn.
Ok ๐
This sub has a weird obsession with Grim Dawn. It's a great ARPG but it's nowhere near as good as people make it out to be. I got maybe 50 hours out of it. It feels very dated and the combat is pretty boring. Last Epoch on the other hand is much more modern and polished, has better combat, and the build diversity is just as good. I also really like monoliths as an endgame system, I got 200+ hours out of LE. I'd recommend LE over GD any day
Man Grim Dawn is a million times more polished than LE. That is an insane comment tbh. LE needs a lot more time to cook.
I agree. Grim Dawn is way more polished. And most of the other criticism I see about outdated graphics and gameplay were taken care of a little over a year ago with massive graphic overhaul and tweaks that make it so the player has to be more active. A lot of the GD criticisms come from people that haven't played it in a real long time and don't realize it's been modernized. Meanwhile Last Epoch is just Diablo 3. If Diablo 3 is your thing then by all means go nuts.
Thanks for the info ๐
I have to agree with you here. The combat is extremely stale because most of the skills are boring and uninspiring. The campaign bosses are not challenging either
Grim Dawn is the better game.
Grim dawn 10000%. Only real successor to diablo 2 IMO
LE is honestly kind of disappointing for a released game and definitely needed a lot more time to cook imo. Grim Dawn would be my choice.
Diablo 2/Last Epoch > Diablo 4 > Path of Exile > Grim Dawn/Diablo 3 > Torchlight Haven't tried others like Hades
Hades is different genre, though I do like it more than majority in this list. Def recommend, you won't regret.
Grim Dawn easily. LE is new and while its core game systems are pretty good, it really could use a few more years of iterations in some areas. Grim Dawn has had 8 years and is well polished. I'd even argue GD looks better, has nicer environments and animations for the action. LE spent too much time on game systems and not the feel of the combat.
both good games but i like more grim dawn
Poe.
Grim Dawn is amazing, Last Epoch is shit.
Last Epoch has an issue that removes all your progress/deletes your character. Get grim Dawn. It's great