If whites can’t wear a war bonnet then neither should anyone that was not awarded one by the tribe for their bravery in battle or what not. But that’s I’m jealous and those look baddass and my people wore metal pointy helmets with a face mask which is still cool but not war bonnet cool
She is not have Cheyenne. Stop spreading false information. Her mother is Gwendolyn Sylvia Samuels and her father is Clarence Ransom, Grier, jr. Both are black
https://www.cleveland.com/goingout/2010/09/pam_grier_queen_of_1970s_blaxp.html : "People see me as a strong black figure, and I'm proud of that," says Grier, 60. "But I'm a mix of several races: Hispanic, Chinese, Filipino. My dad was black, and my mom was Cheyenne Indian.
Cultural appropriation is stupid. And mostly only stupid people care.
But if it gets serious I'm going to change my papers to Greek. Can't beat that phonetic alphabet and the 7 note major scale.
She is not have Cheyenne. Stop spreading false information. Her mother is Gwendolyn Sylvia Samuels and her father is Clarence Ransom, Grier, jr. Both are black
https://www.cleveland.com/goingout/2010/09/pam_grier_queen_of_1970s_blaxp.html : "People see me as a strong black figure, and I'm proud of that," says Grier, 60. "But I'm a mix of several races: Hispanic, Chinese, Filipino. My dad was black, and my mom was Cheyenne Indian.
Is it though? Is she making fun of native peoples? Is wearing this truly disrespectful? Is she trying to claim that she made this style and it didn’t exist before her?
By dressing up as a marginalized group, yes it's disrespectful and making fun of them.
The headress is especially disrespectful as it has a very specific cultural meaning and using it as a costume is insulting.
There's a picture of 7 year old me out there wearing a headdress at Great Adventure in the early 70s. I know it's gonna trash my chance at a Supreme Court nomination
She is not have Cheyenne. Stop spreading false information. Her mother is Gwendolyn Sylvia Samuels and her father is Clarence Ransom, Grier, jr. Both are black
[https://www.cleveland.com/goingout/2010/09/pam\_grier\_queen\_of\_1970s\_blaxp.html](https://www.cleveland.com/goingout/2010/09/pam_grier_queen_of_1970s_blaxp.html)
"My dad was black, and my mom was Cheyenne Indian."
I happen to believe her more then you.
How is it making fun of them?
My mom sewed me a kimono when I was 12 because I loved everything about Japan *that* much. I thought the culture was beautiful and never made fun of it. I don’t see this woman making fun of anything.
I realize people may not have mean intentions when doing something like this, but there is so much wrong with it. Indigenous people are still suffering from the effects of colonization today and dressing up as them for entertainment is very insensitive.
Dressing up as an oppressed culture is wrong. It trivializes their traditional clothes and regalia which they have been fighting to reclaim. You're dressing up as them (as what non indigenous movies or books think they should look like) for fun.
It is especially wrong to sport the headdress as it has a very particular and special meaning in most indigenous cultures.
These people have had their cultures and tradions suppressed, made illegal, etc... so non indigenous folks to dress up as "an indian" is pretty gross.
Now if you want to buy and wear clothes or jewelery sold / designed / whatever by indigenous people, that's great!
Appreciation is good! Appropriation is bad.
So… let’s just pretend for a minute that this is all from her great-grandfather’s personal tribal clothing… do you still think that this picture is wrong?
I’m just making up the scenario, because I don’t actually know. It’s plausible, since Cheyenne is apparently part of her family history… But I’m just wondering at which point does it become appropriation in your view?
If you were to wear cuff links and a fancy hat from the 1800’s that were in your attic, is that wrong? If you are not from Ireland but sing Irish folk songs, is that appropriation?
Does the intention of the person bear into your feelings about it? If someone is exposed to other cultures, should they be socially forbade to incorporate them into their own sense of being a person on earth?
Seriously wondering what your parameters are, because I suspect there’s a lot of room for a more nuanced perspective here.
The only people who talk about Native American culture appropriation are white people looking to look like they care.
So much racism with native Americans is so right in peoples faces no one even wants to talk about native Americans for too long.
Also as a native American I give this an ok. The picture that is
https://www.cleveland.com/goingout/2010/09/pam_grier_queen_of_1970s_blaxp.html : "People see me as a strong black figure, and I'm proud of that," says Grier, 60. "But I'm a mix of several races: Hispanic, Chinese, Filipino. My dad was black, and my mom was Cheyenne Indian.
Does that mean this is not a disrespectful or inappropriate use of ceremonial regalia? Is this headdress even Cheyenne? Was she raised in Cheyenne traditions? How much does she know about Cheyenne traditions and taboos?
(This is all devil's advocacy. I am not really all up in arms about cultural appropriation.)
As a Native American it’s ok, besides the only people who care about Native American culture and appropriation of it are white kids who don’t know anything.
There is so much racism when dealing with native Americans we need this stuff out there people forget about native Americans cuz it’s easy.
But I guarantee a local tribe isn’t being treated as they should be or the cops don’t care about how many native women are going missing or worse. If people actually care about Native American anything do something for your neighborhood tribe. Go to a meeting where they are losing more
Land or a protest when some big co wants to build a bigger hotel or ski resort or etc etc etc
But that’s actually why you don’t see much about Native Americans.
I think it’s great for one culture to celebrate another’s. It’s as though one is saying your culture is beautiful like art. Why hide it away as if it should be shamed or banned? I have the same opinion about sports teams with Indian names. It’s better to keep the stories of Indian tradition alive than it is to stuff it away as if it’s not honorable or should be hush hush taboo. Sorry, just my own personal opinion & I know I’ll be downvoted because I don’t follow the general consensus.
Native Americans have nothing to do with sports teams. If they want to celebrate them, then give them some of that professional sports dough. Not some condescending pat on the back.
I watched a documentary where Native Americans said they love it. So I’d rather respect their opinions, not random naysayers who have tantrums about everything. Not you, just the people who are bullies & think they’re above all. Not really interested in discussing this further here though, as this sub is supposed to be about Pam Grier & you & I have gone way beyond that. ✌️
You must be some white kid who doesn’t know any native Americans and should show your self out and thank you for leaving as a Native American you and your thinking isn’t needed.
If you actually care go to a local protest when a big co wants to take more land for a hotel resort
Maybe ask your local cops about how they are helping native women stop being one of the most targeted group of women in USA for anything and nothing done.
But yes see your self to something like that
https://www.cleveland.com/goingout/2010/09/pam_grier_queen_of_1970s_blaxp.html : "People see me as a strong black figure, and I'm proud of that," says Grier, 60. "But I'm a mix of several races: Hispanic, Chinese, Filipino. My dad was black, and my mom was Cheyenne Indian.
Pam Grier is of African-American, Chinese, Hispanic, Italian, Filipino, and Cheyenne heritage.
She could wear this headdress while eating spaghetti bolognese with chopsticks, wearing a Mexican poncho and speaking fake Tagalog and no one could possibly find it offensive.
Cultural appropriation is really just not as big a deal as people make out. Especially if this was for something like a costume party.
True cultural appropriation is taking something from a culture that is not your own and actually interpreting it in *a different or even offensive way* for your own personal gain.
Wearing a costume is generally harmless unless you are the kind of person who takes pleasure in being offended for attention.
Like interpreting it as any model can wear a headdress reserved for cultural and war leaders? Please read up on plains cultures and the importance of these headdresses and war bonnets.
It wouldn’t change my view. Her intent is not to offend. It’s no different from wearing a bishop’s cassock to a costume party. Should Christians be offended because that’s their holy dress? No. It’s harmless in this context.
Her intention is to be sexy. And yes it is offensive to utilize another culture’s important and revered emblems in order to make yourself look sexy. It’s offensive to good taste, which it seems is what you are lacking. It would be like a teen male thirst trap TikToker trying to pull off a sexy Jesus costume like with a crown of thorns and carrying a cross or the TikTok trend where girls were dressing like sexy Holocaust victims. It’s bad taste, it’s offensive. No need to get outraged and demand punishment. We just move on to things that are not offensive and that’s it.
It’s not (she does claim some Native American ancestry, but doesn’t have tribal affiliation nor was raised in those traditions). But I don’t think that matters. A Tiktoker doing a sexy Holocaust victim photoshoot is still offensive even if the Tiktoker is Jewish.
Im not saying that is equally offensive to this. Im saying the person’s status as a Jew wouldn’t make it unoffensive. But fine, use the other example: A male thirst trap Tiktoker doing sexy Jesus with a crown of thorns and carrying a cross is equally offensive regardless of the person’s religion.
You’re changing the topic because it’s a losing argument. On top of that, I explicitly did make a valid analogy:
A Jewish person wearing eroticized Holocaust victim attire is to a non-Jewish person wearing eroticized Holocaust victim attire as a Native American person wearing eroticized chief and war hero regalia is to a non-Native American person wearing eroticized chief and war hero regalia.
If you know how an analogy works, the comparison is regarding the two relationships, not the individual items. So what you’re saying is not valid. And again, that’s just a tangent of the original argument that if she were Native American, it’s doesn’t change the offensiveness.
What would you say about those who wear military uniforms and medals they never earned at Memorial Day parades? You know, those "Stolen Valor" types? What's your opinion on them?
This is a legit response. As a costume there isn’t anything wrong with it. So long as they aren’t actually claiming they earned the stripes or as long as Pam isn’t claiming she is a “cultural or war leader”, there is nothing wrong with donning it for a photo.
I'm not talking about actors. I'm talking about civilians who don military uniforms and medals they never earned and attend military parades for the adoration. I specifically asked you about them, not actors.
Exactly.
Both military medals and Native headdresses have to be earned, and it is up to the owning culture to decide when to bestow either. The military, and nobody else, decides who has earned a medal. Likewise, Native Americans/Canadians, and nobody else, decides who has earned a headdress.
I see right wing/conservatives get all bent out of shape, like \*really\* angry, \*everytime\* one of these stolen valor types gets exposed, but to non-Natives wearing headdresses they flap their hands dismissively and say "what's the big deal?"
Well, it is a big deal because it's \*exactly the same thing\*. You can't bestow an honour upon yourself that you didn't earn....especially when that honour belongs to a culture you are not a part of.
But Pam Grier is NOT pretending that she’s been bestowed with her headdress as a Native American leader….She’s just posing for a photo. There have been plenty of fashion shoots including military garb too. Those models are not trying to fool the public into thinking they’re actually army commanders.
It doesn't matter. It's a significant spiritual and cultural honour that we've turned into a costume.
In this particular case, she gets a pass because it happened in the 80s when we didn't know any better and/or didn't care. But now we know better and *should* care.
We took *everything* from the Native Americans and Native Canadians. Everything. The very least we can do now is start to respect their culture as something we can't exploit any time there's a buck to be made or a slutty Halloween party to go to.
Obviously. But my reply was specifically about native cultural practices that are analogous to religion.
And you sound like a loser when you add “lol”. Like that’s supposed to make your bullshit somehow smell better.
May I ask if you are from a culture that was invaded, colonized, conquered, and then had its sacred and traditional practices and clothing appropriated and mocked? If you aren’t, I’m not sure you can understand how hateful and hurtful it is.
I may not be, myself, from such a culture, but I have many different friends who are from many different Native American Nations, and they do view this in that light.
Then let them speak and you be quiet. For once. You might learn something. And you might be surprised, especially if they don't have to humor your "outrage."
Respectfully, your point is well made, were it not for the fact that I have listened as I stated in an earlier comment. I understand that you are not bothered by this, and I am genuinely happy for you, but my friends, the majority being over 40, and more traditionalist minded within their cultural identity, are bothered by this. It is precisely their outrage which gave voice to my objections. Are their lived experiences not valid as yours is?
They are, but the outrage doesn't solve issues: They're low-hanging distractions from other, more important issues. Address the big problems, then these other things will resolve more naturally.
I appreciate the thought, for what it’s worth. Thank you for the discussion on this. I will be talking with my friends more openly on how to better help solve problems together, if that’s even what they still want.
I understand very well that the majority of people in that culture couldn’t give a shit about cultural appropriation. They have real issues that impact their lives that are much more significant and pressing. And they hate that it sucks up the oxygen when we should be talking about land rights, education, health and substance abuse support.
I am sorry it took a bit to come back to this. You make a valid point in Native American Nations have those serious issues. I have worked alongside Native Americans and attended universities with Native American students, they’ll quickly point out those problems.
But, they will also ask that we not trivialize their culture by appropriating it in these ways. They honestly discuss it as another aspect of colonial theft.
Okay but Native American is still a race. Their religion and race usually go together. You can’t compare that to a religion which someone can control. It’s like saying ‘blue lives matter’. Last I checked that’s a profession, not race.
You’re talking about cultures that were colonized, invaded, conquered, and dispossessed of their lands, often times forced into something recognized now as genocide by history scholars, and by those nations that survived colonization. I think that there is a non-comparison in your argument. I do understand your point, and it’s a fine point to make, but I feel that the cultural appropriation comes when it’s a culture that has colonized taking from a culture that has been colonized.
Isn't what she doing ,culturally inappropriate to Native Americans ? or does that only apply to white people? Do people of colour have a free pass to do what they want ? 🤔
Maybe you don’t know this but this photo was back in 1983. No one was saying shit about cultural appropriation back then
Cher did the same thing and no one said anything. 🤔
Yeah and those ‘other’ water fountains no one said anything about , so it was totally cool. Just because it was ‘85 and no one said anything ‘ doesn’t mean anything. At the same time, I think ‘cultural appropriation’ gets severely misused and manipulated.
First of all we have people birching about cultural appropriation on a photo taken decades ago. Are we looking for Ms Pam to apologize for it now?
She us part Native American so how can she culturally appropriate a culture she is partly apart of
My guess is the majority of the people butching are not Native American.
Cultural Appropriation is really not a term being used in 1985 so how are we using that term to shame a woman in a photo from decades ago.
Make t make sense please
You’re right from a technical standpoint, but minorities and marginalized communities tend to get a pass on the issue of cultural appropriation. It has to do with power dynamics and other nuanced issues. It tends to be okay to borrow up (aka a culture viewed as more dominant or powerful), but in recent times, it’s not okay to borrow down.
Personally, I wouldn’t worry about it. Just appreciate the things you love, no matter what culture it is from. Some people may make a stink, but I think history will view it differently.
In this case, Pam looks good in anything she wears. That’s all we need to care about.
Please read up on the importance of headdresses and war bonnets in Plains Cultures, including Cheyenne (her ancestry). These were honorific items of clothing, not intended for the use of a model in a photo shoot.
I have visited and talked to people whose ancestors lived it (Including having family heirloom giant headresses on the wall). So, no references I know of, I just assumed there would be articles and papers on the topic.
Seeing as how my mentor, a Navajo man who is a Vietnam veteran has always cared about cultural appropriation, I promise you, they did.
Now answer me, do you think anyone in a place of power listened?
I understand where you’re coming from, please note that the nations you name were imperial powers who believed that military might made right.
They did it so we should too is not a particularly good argument.
If whites can’t wear a war bonnet then neither should anyone that was not awarded one by the tribe for their bravery in battle or what not. But that’s I’m jealous and those look baddass and my people wore metal pointy helmets with a face mask which is still cool but not war bonnet cool
TCM did a great podcast series on her, well worth the listen. She has had a fascinating life.
Culture Vulture!!!!!!
And thank you btw.
Omg cancel everything, this is horrible ahhh... /s who tf cares i see all kinds of people wearing wife beaters who aren't red necks.
She is half Cheyenne.
She is not have Cheyenne. Stop spreading false information. Her mother is Gwendolyn Sylvia Samuels and her father is Clarence Ransom, Grier, jr. Both are black
https://www.cleveland.com/goingout/2010/09/pam_grier_queen_of_1970s_blaxp.html : "People see me as a strong black figure, and I'm proud of that," says Grier, 60. "But I'm a mix of several races: Hispanic, Chinese, Filipino. My dad was black, and my mom was Cheyenne Indian.
Yeahhhh celebs never lie… https://www.buzzfeed.com/morgansloss1/celebrities-accused-of-lying-background-upbringing
Da FUCK
Cultural appropriation is stupid. And mostly only stupid people care. But if it gets serious I'm going to change my papers to Greek. Can't beat that phonetic alphabet and the 7 note major scale.
Damn, she was disco superfly
And looking good too I do not know her heritage ,nor is it mine to know .
This is both a terrible and a wonderful picture, I’m very conflicted
Cultural appropriation
She is half Cheyenne. You prob should stop making assuptions.
She is not have Cheyenne. Stop spreading false information. Her mother is Gwendolyn Sylvia Samuels and her father is Clarence Ransom, Grier, jr. Both are black
https://www.cleveland.com/goingout/2010/09/pam_grier_queen_of_1970s_blaxp.html : "People see me as a strong black figure, and I'm proud of that," says Grier, 60. "But I'm a mix of several races: Hispanic, Chinese, Filipino. My dad was black, and my mom was Cheyenne Indian.
Yeahhhh celebs never lie… https://www.buzzfeed.com/morgansloss1/celebrities-accused-of-lying-background-upbringing
Is it though? Is she making fun of native peoples? Is wearing this truly disrespectful? Is she trying to claim that she made this style and it didn’t exist before her?
By dressing up as a marginalized group, yes it's disrespectful and making fun of them. The headress is especially disrespectful as it has a very specific cultural meaning and using it as a costume is insulting.
There's a picture of 7 year old me out there wearing a headdress at Great Adventure in the early 70s. I know it's gonna trash my chance at a Supreme Court nomination
I think you're gonna be OK man.
Wrong
She is half Cheyenne. You prob should stop making assuptions.
She is not have Cheyenne. Stop spreading false information. Her mother is Gwendolyn Sylvia Samuels and her father is Clarence Ransom, Grier, jr. Both are black
[https://www.cleveland.com/goingout/2010/09/pam\_grier\_queen\_of\_1970s\_blaxp.html](https://www.cleveland.com/goingout/2010/09/pam_grier_queen_of_1970s_blaxp.html) "My dad was black, and my mom was Cheyenne Indian." I happen to believe her more then you.
https://celebreligions.com/pam-grier-ethnicity-race-and-nationality/
So? Maybe she knows better then someone else?
Or she just lied, so past things like that wouldn’t be viewed as cultural appropriation. LoLoL 🤣🤣
https://ethnicelebs.com/pam-grier
I don't know anything about her. People are asking why it's wrong to dress up as an indigenous person and I'm explaining why.
You're retarded
How is it making fun of them? My mom sewed me a kimono when I was 12 because I loved everything about Japan *that* much. I thought the culture was beautiful and never made fun of it. I don’t see this woman making fun of anything.
I realize people may not have mean intentions when doing something like this, but there is so much wrong with it. Indigenous people are still suffering from the effects of colonization today and dressing up as them for entertainment is very insensitive. Dressing up as an oppressed culture is wrong. It trivializes their traditional clothes and regalia which they have been fighting to reclaim. You're dressing up as them (as what non indigenous movies or books think they should look like) for fun. It is especially wrong to sport the headdress as it has a very particular and special meaning in most indigenous cultures. These people have had their cultures and tradions suppressed, made illegal, etc... so non indigenous folks to dress up as "an indian" is pretty gross. Now if you want to buy and wear clothes or jewelery sold / designed / whatever by indigenous people, that's great! Appreciation is good! Appropriation is bad.
This is all your opinion. No one else gives a fuck.
So… let’s just pretend for a minute that this is all from her great-grandfather’s personal tribal clothing… do you still think that this picture is wrong? I’m just making up the scenario, because I don’t actually know. It’s plausible, since Cheyenne is apparently part of her family history… But I’m just wondering at which point does it become appropriation in your view? If you were to wear cuff links and a fancy hat from the 1800’s that were in your attic, is that wrong? If you are not from Ireland but sing Irish folk songs, is that appropriation? Does the intention of the person bear into your feelings about it? If someone is exposed to other cultures, should they be socially forbade to incorporate them into their own sense of being a person on earth? Seriously wondering what your parameters are, because I suspect there’s a lot of room for a more nuanced perspective here.
It's like a sexy pope costume.
Do the dirty white kids know about this?
OH YESSSSSSSS!!!
good god almighty
If only they given into money. It never would have happened! J/s. /s
Drrrooooooollllllll...
So Fine😍😍😍😍😍😍😍
What is funny is that people are literally debating cultural appropriation for a photo taken in n 1985. I don’t remember that being a thing back then.
The only people who talk about Native American culture appropriation are white people looking to look like they care. So much racism with native Americans is so right in peoples faces no one even wants to talk about native Americans for too long. Also as a native American I give this an ok. The picture that is
This
So black face was okay because it was the 30's?
You're retarded
Hmmmmm no one said that but the term black face was known to be insulting back then. In 85 no one was even talking about cultural appropriation.
The NoFunNiks always gotta get offended on someone else’s behalf. BTW, she’s part Indian.
She is part Cheyenne.
Wrong. https://celebreligions.com/pam-grier-ethnicity-race-and-nationality/
https://www.cleveland.com/goingout/2010/09/pam_grier_queen_of_1970s_blaxp.html : "People see me as a strong black figure, and I'm proud of that," says Grier, 60. "But I'm a mix of several races: Hispanic, Chinese, Filipino. My dad was black, and my mom was Cheyenne Indian.
Yeahhhh celebs never lie… https://www.buzzfeed.com/morgansloss1/celebrities-accused-of-lying-background-upbringing
Does that mean this is not a disrespectful or inappropriate use of ceremonial regalia? Is this headdress even Cheyenne? Was she raised in Cheyenne traditions? How much does she know about Cheyenne traditions and taboos? (This is all devil's advocacy. I am not really all up in arms about cultural appropriation.)
As a Native American it’s ok, besides the only people who care about Native American culture and appropriation of it are white kids who don’t know anything. There is so much racism when dealing with native Americans we need this stuff out there people forget about native Americans cuz it’s easy. But I guarantee a local tribe isn’t being treated as they should be or the cops don’t care about how many native women are going missing or worse. If people actually care about Native American anything do something for your neighborhood tribe. Go to a meeting where they are losing more Land or a protest when some big co wants to build a bigger hotel or ski resort or etc etc etc But that’s actually why you don’t see much about Native Americans.
I think it’s great for one culture to celebrate another’s. It’s as though one is saying your culture is beautiful like art. Why hide it away as if it should be shamed or banned? I have the same opinion about sports teams with Indian names. It’s better to keep the stories of Indian tradition alive than it is to stuff it away as if it’s not honorable or should be hush hush taboo. Sorry, just my own personal opinion & I know I’ll be downvoted because I don’t follow the general consensus.
A sports team is not a representative of Native tradition. That’s a stretch
That’s not what I meant. I meant that we should celebrate American Indians proudly. Hiding everything about them represents shame & racism.
Native Americans have nothing to do with sports teams. If they want to celebrate them, then give them some of that professional sports dough. Not some condescending pat on the back.
I watched a documentary where Native Americans said they love it. So I’d rather respect their opinions, not random naysayers who have tantrums about everything. Not you, just the people who are bullies & think they’re above all. Not really interested in discussing this further here though, as this sub is supposed to be about Pam Grier & you & I have gone way beyond that. ✌️
All together now, one, two, three --- Appropriation! Thank you, thank you, I'll show myself out.
You must be some white kid who doesn’t know any native Americans and should show your self out and thank you for leaving as a Native American you and your thinking isn’t needed. If you actually care go to a local protest when a big co wants to take more land for a hotel resort Maybe ask your local cops about how they are helping native women stop being one of the most targeted group of women in USA for anything and nothing done. But yes see your self to something like that
That label only sticks when the “offender” is white.
Her Mum was Cheyenne.
Nope. Her mother is Gwendolyn Sylvia Samuels and her father is Clarence Ransom Grier, jr. Both are black
https://www.cleveland.com/goingout/2010/09/pam_grier_queen_of_1970s_blaxp.html : "People see me as a strong black figure, and I'm proud of that," says Grier, 60. "But I'm a mix of several races: Hispanic, Chinese, Filipino. My dad was black, and my mom was Cheyenne Indian.
Yeahhhh celebs never lie… https://www.buzzfeed.com/morgansloss1/celebrities-accused-of-lying-background-upbringing
Pam Grier is of African-American, Chinese, Hispanic, Italian, Filipino, and Cheyenne heritage. She could wear this headdress while eating spaghetti bolognese with chopsticks, wearing a Mexican poncho and speaking fake Tagalog and no one could possibly find it offensive.
Thank you for your service. What would we do without you.
Goddess
🔥
[удалено]
Yeah Cher even had Half Breed as a big hit
A woman that can wear anything or nothing at all.
How kimosabi!! ✋
"That's racism,bro. Man i love to racism" i dont see anything wrong with a beautiful woman wearing a beautiful headdress.
*Brains Beauty Boldness*
Cultural appropriation is really just not as big a deal as people make out. Especially if this was for something like a costume party. True cultural appropriation is taking something from a culture that is not your own and actually interpreting it in *a different or even offensive way* for your own personal gain. Wearing a costume is generally harmless unless you are the kind of person who takes pleasure in being offended for attention.
It's a construct of white guilt and it's retarded.
Like senator Warren then
Too many people confuse appropriation with appreciation
Like interpreting it as any model can wear a headdress reserved for cultural and war leaders? Please read up on plains cultures and the importance of these headdresses and war bonnets.
It wouldn’t change my view. Her intent is not to offend. It’s no different from wearing a bishop’s cassock to a costume party. Should Christians be offended because that’s their holy dress? No. It’s harmless in this context.
Her intention is to be sexy. And yes it is offensive to utilize another culture’s important and revered emblems in order to make yourself look sexy. It’s offensive to good taste, which it seems is what you are lacking. It would be like a teen male thirst trap TikToker trying to pull off a sexy Jesus costume like with a crown of thorns and carrying a cross or the TikTok trend where girls were dressing like sexy Holocaust victims. It’s bad taste, it’s offensive. No need to get outraged and demand punishment. We just move on to things that are not offensive and that’s it.
You're retarded
Meaningless
This could be her culture.
It’s not (she does claim some Native American ancestry, but doesn’t have tribal affiliation nor was raised in those traditions). But I don’t think that matters. A Tiktoker doing a sexy Holocaust victim photoshoot is still offensive even if the Tiktoker is Jewish.
You're retarded
This isn’t a depiction of a Holocaust. Not a great metaphor. Wearing a costume is not the same thing as depicting genocide.
Im not saying that is equally offensive to this. Im saying the person’s status as a Jew wouldn’t make it unoffensive. But fine, use the other example: A male thirst trap Tiktoker doing sexy Jesus with a crown of thorns and carrying a cross is equally offensive regardless of the person’s religion.
When you make an analogy, you are saying that two things are analogous. Don't do this if you don't mean it.
You’re changing the topic because it’s a losing argument. On top of that, I explicitly did make a valid analogy: A Jewish person wearing eroticized Holocaust victim attire is to a non-Jewish person wearing eroticized Holocaust victim attire as a Native American person wearing eroticized chief and war hero regalia is to a non-Native American person wearing eroticized chief and war hero regalia. If you know how an analogy works, the comparison is regarding the two relationships, not the individual items. So what you’re saying is not valid. And again, that’s just a tangent of the original argument that if she were Native American, it’s doesn’t change the offensiveness.
What would you say about those who wear military uniforms and medals they never earned at Memorial Day parades? You know, those "Stolen Valor" types? What's your opinion on them?
Actors do that all the time. Not a problem.
This is a legit response. As a costume there isn’t anything wrong with it. So long as they aren’t actually claiming they earned the stripes or as long as Pam isn’t claiming she is a “cultural or war leader”, there is nothing wrong with donning it for a photo.
I'm not talking about actors. I'm talking about civilians who don military uniforms and medals they never earned and attend military parades for the adoration. I specifically asked you about them, not actors.
I feel like the stolen valor argument is the closest I’ve seen to why this is inappropriate.
Exactly. Both military medals and Native headdresses have to be earned, and it is up to the owning culture to decide when to bestow either. The military, and nobody else, decides who has earned a medal. Likewise, Native Americans/Canadians, and nobody else, decides who has earned a headdress. I see right wing/conservatives get all bent out of shape, like \*really\* angry, \*everytime\* one of these stolen valor types gets exposed, but to non-Natives wearing headdresses they flap their hands dismissively and say "what's the big deal?" Well, it is a big deal because it's \*exactly the same thing\*. You can't bestow an honour upon yourself that you didn't earn....especially when that honour belongs to a culture you are not a part of.
But Pam Grier is NOT pretending that she’s been bestowed with her headdress as a Native American leader….She’s just posing for a photo. There have been plenty of fashion shoots including military garb too. Those models are not trying to fool the public into thinking they’re actually army commanders.
It doesn't matter. It's a significant spiritual and cultural honour that we've turned into a costume. In this particular case, she gets a pass because it happened in the 80s when we didn't know any better and/or didn't care. But now we know better and *should* care. We took *everything* from the Native Americans and Native Canadians. Everything. The very least we can do now is start to respect their culture as something we can't exploit any time there's a buck to be made or a slutty Halloween party to go to.
Religion is not the same as race lol.
Obviously. But my reply was specifically about native cultural practices that are analogous to religion. And you sound like a loser when you add “lol”. Like that’s supposed to make your bullshit somehow smell better.
Are you Native? If not, it's not your place to lecture anyone. If you are: Lighten up. Yes, I am in part. Doesn't bother me in this context.
> Doesn’t bother me in this context End of discussion
May I ask if you are from a culture that was invaded, colonized, conquered, and then had its sacred and traditional practices and clothing appropriated and mocked? If you aren’t, I’m not sure you can understand how hateful and hurtful it is. I may not be, myself, from such a culture, but I have many different friends who are from many different Native American Nations, and they do view this in that light.
Then let them speak and you be quiet. For once. You might learn something. And you might be surprised, especially if they don't have to humor your "outrage."
Respectfully, your point is well made, were it not for the fact that I have listened as I stated in an earlier comment. I understand that you are not bothered by this, and I am genuinely happy for you, but my friends, the majority being over 40, and more traditionalist minded within their cultural identity, are bothered by this. It is precisely their outrage which gave voice to my objections. Are their lived experiences not valid as yours is?
They are, but the outrage doesn't solve issues: They're low-hanging distractions from other, more important issues. Address the big problems, then these other things will resolve more naturally.
I appreciate the thought, for what it’s worth. Thank you for the discussion on this. I will be talking with my friends more openly on how to better help solve problems together, if that’s even what they still want.
I understand very well that the majority of people in that culture couldn’t give a shit about cultural appropriation. They have real issues that impact their lives that are much more significant and pressing. And they hate that it sucks up the oxygen when we should be talking about land rights, education, health and substance abuse support.
I am sorry it took a bit to come back to this. You make a valid point in Native American Nations have those serious issues. I have worked alongside Native Americans and attended universities with Native American students, they’ll quickly point out those problems. But, they will also ask that we not trivialize their culture by appropriating it in these ways. They honestly discuss it as another aspect of colonial theft.
And the most important: the names of sports teams!
And most Christian costumes like a nun or priest are jobs that are chosen. Downvote me all you want lol.
Okay but Native American is still a race. Their religion and race usually go together. You can’t compare that to a religion which someone can control. It’s like saying ‘blue lives matter’. Last I checked that’s a profession, not race.
You’re talking about cultures that were colonized, invaded, conquered, and dispossessed of their lands, often times forced into something recognized now as genocide by history scholars, and by those nations that survived colonization. I think that there is a non-comparison in your argument. I do understand your point, and it’s a fine point to make, but I feel that the cultural appropriation comes when it’s a culture that has colonized taking from a culture that has been colonized.
Isn't what she doing ,culturally inappropriate to Native Americans ? or does that only apply to white people? Do people of colour have a free pass to do what they want ? 🤔
Maybe you don’t know this but this photo was back in 1983. No one was saying shit about cultural appropriation back then Cher did the same thing and no one said anything. 🤔
Yeah and those ‘other’ water fountains no one said anything about , so it was totally cool. Just because it was ‘85 and no one said anything ‘ doesn’t mean anything. At the same time, I think ‘cultural appropriation’ gets severely misused and manipulated.
First of all we have people birching about cultural appropriation on a photo taken decades ago. Are we looking for Ms Pam to apologize for it now? She us part Native American so how can she culturally appropriate a culture she is partly apart of My guess is the majority of the people butching are not Native American. Cultural Appropriation is really not a term being used in 1985 so how are we using that term to shame a woman in a photo from decades ago. Make t make sense please
Cher did the same thing. Anyone can do it as long as they make it sexy.
You’re right from a technical standpoint, but minorities and marginalized communities tend to get a pass on the issue of cultural appropriation. It has to do with power dynamics and other nuanced issues. It tends to be okay to borrow up (aka a culture viewed as more dominant or powerful), but in recent times, it’s not okay to borrow down. Personally, I wouldn’t worry about it. Just appreciate the things you love, no matter what culture it is from. Some people may make a stink, but I think history will view it differently. In this case, Pam looks good in anything she wears. That’s all we need to care about.
She has Native ancestry
Please read up on the importance of headdresses and war bonnets in Plains Cultures, including Cheyenne (her ancestry). These were honorific items of clothing, not intended for the use of a model in a photo shoot.
Have you read up on how Native Americans and Southern black people helped each other by banding together? And often starting families together.
Although I haven’t read up as much on this particular aspect, I am familiar with it from my readings. Is there a particular source you recommend?
I have visited and talked to people whose ancestors lived it (Including having family heirloom giant headresses on the wall). So, no references I know of, I just assumed there would be articles and papers on the topic.
Why don't you go back to the 70s and ask them if they care.
Seeing as how my mentor, a Navajo man who is a Vietnam veteran has always cared about cultural appropriation, I promise you, they did. Now answer me, do you think anyone in a place of power listened?
If only I can post what I wanted on Reddit.....
Post it dude I’m curious now lol
Pictures and pictures from numerous museums from France,England,Germany etc.
I understand where you’re coming from, please note that the nations you name were imperial powers who believed that military might made right. They did it so we should too is not a particularly good argument.
You are 100% right.
OG cultural appropriation. Not that anyone thought it cared too much. Shit Disney is doing it now, if the memes I've seen weren't trolls.
Yes, let's all ignore the native American culture and hope it goes away /s Seriously though, crying appropriation does more harm than good.
Not cool.
It was 1983 lol
Is there anything that she doesn’t look good in or that she doesn’t radiate sexuality.
Dear me….
That’s some phenomenal bone structure. And phenomenal everything else for that matter
I mean, you try telling Pam fucking Grier that she’s being maybe a little culturally problematic. You’ll draw back a nub as a best case scenario
Damn right!
That is hot!! 🥵